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Moadeep
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Posted - 2004.07.16 12:07:00 -
[181]
Edited by: Moadeep on 16/07/2004 12:08:56
Making it impossible to run 2 large repairs and all guns infinite on a Apoc sounds fair to me.
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Moadeep
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Posted - 2004.07.16 12:07:00 -
[182]
Edited by: Moadeep on 16/07/2004 12:08:56
Making it impossible to run 2 large repairs and all guns infinite on a Apoc sounds fair to me.
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.07.16 12:36:00 -
[183]
Edited by: Hellek on 16/07/2004 12:39:56
moad: The other 3 Tier2 BS are very well balanced against each other so nerfing the Apoc isn't a solution, it would not solve the Tempests problems.
I agree to ProphetGuru's last post, the Tempest is currently the weakest of all Tier2 BS (one of them has to be), but its only slightly weaker than the others and all it needs is a small boost in one of its attributes. No need to change any of the other BS which are very well balanced now, changing them would only destroy this balance.
PS: Just as example: You think Apoc should not be able to tank and fire? Then have a look at the raven. armor tank it and use cruise launchers. works fine. so plz nerf the raven as well. And if we are allready on it, the megathron can tank as well, and even use drones (wow, that really cries for a double nerf even, or lets triple nerf the megathron if we are allready on it).
So I'd reallly appreciate it if we could keep this thread focused on the tempest, the tempest needs a small boost, yes, but the other BS don't need a nerf.
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.07.16 12:36:00 -
[184]
Edited by: Hellek on 16/07/2004 12:39:56
moad: The other 3 Tier2 BS are very well balanced against each other so nerfing the Apoc isn't a solution, it would not solve the Tempests problems.
I agree to ProphetGuru's last post, the Tempest is currently the weakest of all Tier2 BS (one of them has to be), but its only slightly weaker than the others and all it needs is a small boost in one of its attributes. No need to change any of the other BS which are very well balanced now, changing them would only destroy this balance.
PS: Just as example: You think Apoc should not be able to tank and fire? Then have a look at the raven. armor tank it and use cruise launchers. works fine. so plz nerf the raven as well. And if we are allready on it, the megathron can tank as well, and even use drones (wow, that really cries for a double nerf even, or lets triple nerf the megathron if we are allready on it).
So I'd reallly appreciate it if we could keep this thread focused on the tempest, the tempest needs a small boost, yes, but the other BS don't need a nerf.
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dalman
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Posted - 2004.07.16 13:00:00 -
[185]
Tar om,
wtf, you've made like 10 posts now, please don't make any more.
You have to be one of the most selfish whiners in the game, demanding what you've trained for to be better than everything else. Demanding 60km weapons to have the highest DOT in the game, yea right.
Seriously,
this "Tempest can't tank", what are you guys on about?
As I said in my first post, a tempest can run TWO large accomodation repairers for about as long as a megathron can run ONE large acco. And then you say it can't tank?
And the raven is seriously not overpowered.
If it's using cruise missiles, it's doing pathetic damage.
And when using torps it can't tank that good. Not to mention it takes damn long for torps to reach the target.
And avoiding torps is damn easy. 1 or 2 rocket launchers with defenders... 1 or 2 smartbombs (which also helps alot against mega/domi taking out it's drones, and against frigates)...
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.07.16 13:00:00 -
[186]
Tar om,
wtf, you've made like 10 posts now, please don't make any more.
You have to be one of the most selfish whiners in the game, demanding what you've trained for to be better than everything else. Demanding 60km weapons to have the highest DOT in the game, yea right.
Seriously,
this "Tempest can't tank", what are you guys on about?
As I said in my first post, a tempest can run TWO large accomodation repairers for about as long as a megathron can run ONE large acco. And then you say it can't tank?
And the raven is seriously not overpowered.
If it's using cruise missiles, it's doing pathetic damage.
And when using torps it can't tank that good. Not to mention it takes damn long for torps to reach the target.
And avoiding torps is damn easy. 1 or 2 rocket launchers with defenders... 1 or 2 smartbombs (which also helps alot against mega/domi taking out it's drones, and against frigates)...
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Siddy
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Posted - 2004.07.16 13:28:00 -
[187]
Well .. i whuld Gladly exchange tankking ability to Exstra speed and lower signature radius
Maybe adding skill based 5% lower signature radius every skill level to Tempest and 3% to phoon?
and speed bonus up to 2% or 3% per skill level ?
i whuld wery gladly see a "difrent" BS in game
right now all BS rely theyr defence on taking the damage and repairing it .. in fleet battles thet wont help u much
but when you got the chanse to evade the damage insted of tankking it - that whuld make a diference ( and also put some value on piloting skills)
oh well .. just my 2 cents
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.07.16 13:28:00 -
[188]
Well .. i whuld Gladly exchange tankking ability to Exstra speed and lower signature radius
Maybe adding skill based 5% lower signature radius every skill level to Tempest and 3% to phoon?
and speed bonus up to 2% or 3% per skill level ?
i whuld wery gladly see a "difrent" BS in game
right now all BS rely theyr defence on taking the damage and repairing it .. in fleet battles thet wont help u much
but when you got the chanse to evade the damage insted of tankking it - that whuld make a diference ( and also put some value on piloting skills)
oh well .. just my 2 cents
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ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.07.16 13:36:00 -
[189]
Edited by: ProphetGuru on 16/07/2004 13:41:26
Edited by: ProphetGuru on 16/07/2004 13:38:21
Dalman, I will give you the fact that a tempest can run a couple large repairers as long as a megathron. If you wish to compare a tempest with a mega fine. How do you feel a mega vs a tempest with decent loadouts at 5km would go? Come on dude, you would eat me alive. My point being... yes, temp may be able to run those repairers the same amount of time as a mega.... but it will still die, due to the mega severely outdamaging it.
If you wanna do a 20km fight with an apoc... same deal.. apoc can also run it's repairers, perhaps as long as tempest right? On the other hand, apoc will do more damage with megabeams or tachs then I would with 1400's. Bear in mind a long range setup would more likely be shield tanked then armor...
The temp needs to be able to tank long enough to compensate for it's reduced dot, OR the dot has to be a lil more. Nothing drastic.... just needs a tweak.
The issue is, you can't have the lowest dot, and the least survivability together. The 2 combined make for a rather predictable outcome.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.07.16 13:36:00 -
[190]
Edited by: ProphetGuru on 16/07/2004 13:41:26
Edited by: ProphetGuru on 16/07/2004 13:38:21
Dalman, I will give you the fact that a tempest can run a couple large repairers as long as a megathron. If you wish to compare a tempest with a mega fine. How do you feel a mega vs a tempest with decent loadouts at 5km would go? Come on dude, you would eat me alive. My point being... yes, temp may be able to run those repairers the same amount of time as a mega.... but it will still die, due to the mega severely outdamaging it.
If you wanna do a 20km fight with an apoc... same deal.. apoc can also run it's repairers, perhaps as long as tempest right? On the other hand, apoc will do more damage with megabeams or tachs then I would with 1400's. Bear in mind a long range setup would more likely be shield tanked then armor...
The temp needs to be able to tank long enough to compensate for it's reduced dot, OR the dot has to be a lil more. Nothing drastic.... just needs a tweak.
The issue is, you can't have the lowest dot, and the least survivability together. The 2 combined make for a rather predictable outcome.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.07.16 13:48:00 -
[191]
A proper Tempest against a proper Mega at 5km would result in luck determining who wins, whoever gets the most lucky with wreckers wins.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.07.16 13:48:00 -
[192]
A proper Tempest against a proper Mega at 5km would result in luck determining who wins, whoever gets the most lucky with wreckers wins.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.07.16 14:11:00 -
[193]
Ok...
This is assuming top pvpers with very good skillpoints and setups.
Tempest vs Mega _starting_ at very close range,
the mega would _probably_ win.
But say you warp in 30-40km away.
Now, there are many many long range tempests out there, so the tempest could just save cap and let the mega do all the MWDing. And if it has some launchers fitted, it would do some damage during that time. Resulting in the tempest tricking the mega into a situation where the tempest would probably win.
And in a 1vs1 against a raven, I would actually think the tempest's chance to success is bigger than the mega's chance to success.
And in a situation against an apoc/arma, the tempest would benefit of having better basic armor resistance against lasers.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.07.16 14:11:00 -
[194]
Ok...
This is assuming top pvpers with very good skillpoints and setups.
Tempest vs Mega _starting_ at very close range,
the mega would _probably_ win.
But say you warp in 30-40km away.
Now, there are many many long range tempests out there, so the tempest could just save cap and let the mega do all the MWDing. And if it has some launchers fitted, it would do some damage during that time. Resulting in the tempest tricking the mega into a situation where the tempest would probably win.
And in a 1vs1 against a raven, I would actually think the tempest's chance to success is bigger than the mega's chance to success.
And in a situation against an apoc/arma, the tempest would benefit of having better basic armor resistance against lasers.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Sigarni
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Posted - 2004.07.16 14:26:00 -
[195]
Sorry let me first just laugh at the point where someone validated their point about different ammo types by saying someone should use a Ship scanner and then reload
wtf, check the range of a ship scanner first of all and then perhaps check that you have been taking the right medication. Who the **** is going to use one of their midslots in PVP for a ship scanner and then say 'can you hold for a minute please whilst I come scan you and find out what you are hardened against'
Sometimes its best not to post at all.
And whoever said that a Tempest can armour tank as well as an Apoc is talking out their ass. I dont even need to begin stating calculations but how can a ship with less low slots, less cap, slower cap rechare and lower base armour even possibly be superior at armour tanking.
Well thats my flames out the way.
I think the Tempest needs a 7/4 turret/launcher option to make it truely 'versatile' . And while this might not help long range set ups it would let close range set ups fit another Dual 650 or whatever. I think the Tempest needs to stay relatively flimsy because its light and fast but its damage does need a little loving.
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Sigarni
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Posted - 2004.07.16 14:26:00 -
[196]
Sorry let me first just laugh at the point where someone validated their point about different ammo types by saying someone should use a Ship scanner and then reload
wtf, check the range of a ship scanner first of all and then perhaps check that you have been taking the right medication. Who the **** is going to use one of their midslots in PVP for a ship scanner and then say 'can you hold for a minute please whilst I come scan you and find out what you are hardened against'
Sometimes its best not to post at all.
And whoever said that a Tempest can armour tank as well as an Apoc is talking out their ass. I dont even need to begin stating calculations but how can a ship with less low slots, less cap, slower cap rechare and lower base armour even possibly be superior at armour tanking.
Well thats my flames out the way.
I think the Tempest needs a 7/4 turret/launcher option to make it truely 'versatile' . And while this might not help long range set ups it would let close range set ups fit another Dual 650 or whatever. I think the Tempest needs to stay relatively flimsy because its light and fast but its damage does need a little loving.
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ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.07.16 14:31:00 -
[197]
 Originally by: Gariuys
A proper Tempest against a proper Mega at 5km would result in luck determining who wins, whoever gets the most lucky with wreckers wins.
Oh come on dude! You of all people know better! You will be doing 10-15% more dmg then me, with tracking that is way better... I can try to offset that a bit with my speed, but the reality is you would likely web me.
That battle ends with you at around 40% armor and me in an egg.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.07.16 14:31:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Gariuys
A proper Tempest against a proper Mega at 5km would result in luck determining who wins, whoever gets the most lucky with wreckers wins.
Oh come on dude! You of all people know better! You will be doing 10-15% more dmg then me, with tracking that is way better... I can try to offset that a bit with my speed, but the reality is you would likely web me.
That battle ends with you at around 40% armor and me in an egg.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2004.07.16 15:51:00 -
[199]
Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 16/07/2004 16:18:33
Originally by: Kashre
Originally by: Imhotep Khem
Originally by: Kashre
... I wouldnt mind seeing it get a little buff in cpu... BUT... projectile DOT is fine, imo. We have to pay for the no-cap-to-fire somehow...
So you pay for the fact that your guns do not use cap. What do you get for your payment? From what I am reading, one might as well use cap for his guns cause there is really no viable alternative for cap to be used on a tempest!?
Not sure what your getting at. My point was that since even the biggest projectile uses basically no cap to fire, we have a big bonus since all that cap can go to other things, like running your armor tank. That advantage is ballanced by the fact that the projectiles to the least damage of all gun types. Which works, imo. If projectiles did more damage, then theyd have to use more cap to keep it balanced. And then they would not be different from hybrids except for range and tracking.
Well as i understand it, other ships get cap bonuses, and others have more cap to start with, so the tempest lack of using cap is already compensated by giving other ships more cap.
Low damage, low defence, high cap. But no way to transform that cap into more danage or more defence, or even a positional advantage of speed.
Is this not the case?
____
If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2004.07.16 15:51:00 -
[200]
Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 16/07/2004 16:18:33
Originally by: Kashre
Originally by: Imhotep Khem
Originally by: Kashre
... I wouldnt mind seeing it get a little buff in cpu... BUT... projectile DOT is fine, imo. We have to pay for the no-cap-to-fire somehow...
So you pay for the fact that your guns do not use cap. What do you get for your payment? From what I am reading, one might as well use cap for his guns cause there is really no viable alternative for cap to be used on a tempest!?
Not sure what your getting at. My point was that since even the biggest projectile uses basically no cap to fire, we have a big bonus since all that cap can go to other things, like running your armor tank. That advantage is ballanced by the fact that the projectiles to the least damage of all gun types. Which works, imo. If projectiles did more damage, then theyd have to use more cap to keep it balanced. And then they would not be different from hybrids except for range and tracking.
Well as i understand it, other ships get cap bonuses, and others have more cap to start with, so the tempest lack of using cap is already compensated by giving other ships more cap.
Low damage, low defence, high cap. But no way to transform that cap into more danage or more defence, or even a positional advantage of speed.
Is this not the case?
____
If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Selim
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Posted - 2004.07.16 17:19:00 -
[201]
I've concluded that the problem with the Tempest is not the ship, but with its guns.
Cap usage = better tracking.
Projectiles = crap tracking
Hybrids = Better Tracking
Lasers = Best tracking
But Projectiles also have the worst damage over time. I think it should be equaled to hybrids and lasers, the no cap bonus is the benefit for having crap tracking.
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Selim
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Posted - 2004.07.16 17:19:00 -
[202]
I've concluded that the problem with the Tempest is not the ship, but with its guns.
Cap usage = better tracking.
Projectiles = crap tracking
Hybrids = Better Tracking
Lasers = Best tracking
But Projectiles also have the worst damage over time. I think it should be equaled to hybrids and lasers, the no cap bonus is the benefit for having crap tracking.
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GFLTorque
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Posted - 2004.07.16 17:56:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Gariuys
A proper Tempest against a proper Mega at 5km would result in luck determining who wins, whoever gets the most lucky with wreckers wins.
Respectfully,
No. This outcome will always be the MEGA if skills are equal and two experienced pvp'ers outfit the ships.
Have tested this many many many times on Entropy in the last month.
Tempest vs Raven, the Raven wins at all ranges.
Apoc vs Tempest, Apoc wins at all ranges.
If the last patch was about balance, then more work needs to be done. Speed bonus on a battleship is not going to help as the difference in speed would be far too negligable to account for much in an actual battle. For a Tempest outfit to even possibly work with 1400's the Tempest is the only ship in game that can't even sniff getting into range to warp disrupt its opponent of the top tier BShips.
Perhaps a module for tempest pilots that says ..."hey joo taking nice damage, would you stay longer for me to wtfpwn your Bship?"
4 out of 3 people have trouble with fractions
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GFLTorque
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Posted - 2004.07.16 17:56:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Gariuys
A proper Tempest against a proper Mega at 5km would result in luck determining who wins, whoever gets the most lucky with wreckers wins.
Respectfully,
No. This outcome will always be the MEGA if skills are equal and two experienced pvp'ers outfit the ships.
Have tested this many many many times on Entropy in the last month.
Tempest vs Raven, the Raven wins at all ranges.
Apoc vs Tempest, Apoc wins at all ranges.
If the last patch was about balance, then more work needs to be done. Speed bonus on a battleship is not going to help as the difference in speed would be far too negligable to account for much in an actual battle. For a Tempest outfit to even possibly work with 1400's the Tempest is the only ship in game that can't even sniff getting into range to warp disrupt its opponent of the top tier BShips.
Perhaps a module for tempest pilots that says ..."hey joo taking nice damage, would you stay longer for me to wtfpwn your Bship?"
4 out of 3 people have trouble with fractions
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Tar om
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Posted - 2004.07.16 18:13:00 -
[205]
Originally by: dalman
Tar om,
wtf, you've made like 10 posts now, please don't make any more.
You have to be one of the most selfish whiners in the game, demanding what you've trained for to be better than everything else. Demanding 60km weapons to have the highest DOT in the game, yea right.
Nope, not my point at all. I would like the Tempest to have a strength in one area as the other BS do. I fully accept that a strength should be balanced with weakness in other areas.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
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Posted - 2004.07.16 18:13:00 -
[206]
Originally by: dalman
Tar om,
wtf, you've made like 10 posts now, please don't make any more.
You have to be one of the most selfish whiners in the game, demanding what you've trained for to be better than everything else. Demanding 60km weapons to have the highest DOT in the game, yea right.
Nope, not my point at all. I would like the Tempest to have a strength in one area as the other BS do. I fully accept that a strength should be balanced with weakness in other areas.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Doppleganger
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Posted - 2004.07.17 02:51:00 -
[207]
I have flown Tempests for around 9 months now and since the last few patches decided it is now best fitted to transport valuable minerals.
I no longer have much of a reason to use it for combat anymore since other battleships I own fill that role soooooooooooo much better... sad too. Being Minmatar I always prefered to fly my own race's ship but see little point in it as of right now.
Guess I will evaluate this decision as time goes on. 
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Doppleganger
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Posted - 2004.07.17 02:51:00 -
[208]
I have flown Tempests for around 9 months now and since the last few patches decided it is now best fitted to transport valuable minerals.
I no longer have much of a reason to use it for combat anymore since other battleships I own fill that role soooooooooooo much better... sad too. Being Minmatar I always prefered to fly my own race's ship but see little point in it as of right now.
Guess I will evaluate this decision as time goes on.
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Species 8472
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Posted - 2004.07.17 05:11:00 -
[209]
Edited by: Species 8472 on 17/07/2004 05:13:51
Well i know they suck now Tempests, ive been flying them for at least 9 months too. Than yesterday in PF-346 i was lucky to last 20 seconds against 4 bs (Bone collectors)thats armour tanking too :(.
Before the patch i actually took on 5 bs (ATTUK) survived with 35 % structure fought for 5 mins or more and even took down a raven at the time too.
Maybe im rusty or is it this new patch that just sucks if u fly a tempest nowadays ???
Note to self use chaos after they patch things in tranquility :)
"The Weak Will Perish". |
Species 8472
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Posted - 2004.07.17 05:11:00 -
[210]
Edited by: Species 8472 on 17/07/2004 05:13:51
Well i know they suck now Tempests, ive been flying them for at least 9 months too. Than yesterday in PF-346 i was lucky to last 20 seconds against 4 bs (Bone collectors)thats armour tanking too :(.
Before the patch i actually took on 5 bs (ATTUK) survived with 35 % structure fought for 5 mins or more and even took down a raven at the time too.
Maybe im rusty or is it this new patch that just sucks if u fly a tempest nowadays ???
Note to self use chaos after they patch things in tranquility :)
"The Weak Will Perish". |
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