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REmove ECM from game

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
mythpilot	Posted - 2008.12.20 16:00:00 - [151] Originally by: KingBobs Dawn question:wich module can -disrupt all your turrets to 100% -defend all your missiles -disrupt your remote repair -makes free of warp scrambles and disruptors -makes free of stasis webb -disable attack-orders for drones -disable the EW from your target -more then one can be used at one target without an drawback -all this in an save range of 100km and more out side from the battle ? -And kill your cap in 3 seconds?(for the ECM) Right the ECM-****-off module I fixed the last line for you besides Nano is more over powered then this those ecm ships have no DPS so they can't do solo crap. so cut the crap. if people yell at me for Nano I should yell back when I got an invicable plan. and dumbo had ears
mythpilot	Posted - 2008.12.20 16:11:00 - [152] hint put a falcon on a falcon...(jamming vs jamming equals you being able to shoot)
Reggie Stoneloader Party Crashers INC. Liberty.	Posted - 2008.12.21 07:42:00 - [153] Edited by: Reggie Stoneloader on 21/12/2008 07:42:29 Originally by: DMF KingBob last night the same chase the main with an hyperion and the alt with an falcon at 100km i fitted an eccm and heated it but it was sennsless the hyperion escaped the ecm of the falcon turned all my offensive modules instandly it to idle my turrets stopped with firing (that better then alls neutralizer and turret disruptor can do!!!!) and my warp disruptor and webber turned off question:for what does the other ew exist when an ecm can do it all at once at the same time with more range then a neut on an curse/pilgrim or an webber from an huginn or rapier or an warp disruptor(t2) from an arazu??? its simple time to accept the fact that ecm with 20sec/cycle is overpowered Where is this guy? Tell us. We'll kill him, then send you a link to the fraps. You'll learn a great deal. Crusades: Security Status
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.12.21 07:51:00 - [154] bomber with ECCM fitted and missiles skills maxed... = falcon runs away Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2008.12.21 10:15:00 - [155] Originally by: DMF KingBob last night the same chase the main with an hyperion and the alt with an falcon at 100km i fitted an eccm and heated it but it was sennsless the hyperion escaped the ecm of the falcon turned all my offensive modules instandly it to idle my turrets stopped with firing (that better then alls neutralizer and turret disruptor can do!!!!) and my warp disruptor and webber turned off question:for what does the other ew exist when an ecm can do it all at once at the same time with more range then a neut on an curse/pilgrim or an webber from an huginn or rapier or an warp disruptor(t2) from an arazu??? its simple time to accept the fact that ecm with 20sec/cycle is overpowered Let me get this straight. You made the Hyperion run, but that was only possible after the Falcon jammed you. So what actually happend? You have had to do some sort of damage to the hyperion to make it run when the falcon jammed you. Which means the falcon failed jamming you multiple times. And if you expect one single ECCM to overcome jamming 100%, then I would like to get a hardener that will reduce all incomming damage by 100%. Btw, you are a terrible troll.
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:11:00 - [156] Originally by: TZeer Originally by: DMF KingBob last night the same chase the main with an hyperion and the alt with an falcon at 100km i fitted an eccm and heated it but it was sennsless the hyperion escaped the ecm of the falcon turned all my offensive modules instandly it to idle my turrets stopped with firing (that better then alls neutralizer and turret disruptor can do!!!!) and my warp disruptor and webber turned off question:for what does the other ew exist when an ecm can do it all at once at the same time with more range then a neut on an curse/pilgrim or an webber from an huginn or rapier or an warp disruptor(t2) from an arazu??? its simple time to accept the fact that ecm with 20sec/cycle is overpowered Let me get this straight. You made the Hyperion run, but that was only possible after the Falcon jammed you. So what actually happend? You have had to do some sort of damage to the hyperion to make it run when the falcon jammed you. Which means the falcon failed jamming you multiple times. And if you expect one single ECCM to overcome jamming 100%, then I would like to get a hardener that will reduce all incomming damage by 100%. Btw, you are a terrible troll. i got an blackbird in my fleet on the other side of the battle so the hype was jammed too and yes the jamm of the falcon failed some times(never seen this before,maybe something wrong with the skills or so) the battle was a complete fail through ecm becouse ecm pwns all the other ew like warp jammers where is the sense of different tactics when only one is the best?
Drogher Forerunner	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:35:00 - [157] Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks Originally by: Drogher Forerunner But if there is not ECM around, it becomes a wasted slot. If there is no explosive dmg around, explosive hardener becomes a wasted slot. True. Good point. I wonder if ECM should have a much shorter optimal range and a bigger falloff. So if they want to jam as well as they do now they have to take more of a risk in being closer. Originally by: TZeer 2: Falcon's ECM power got boosted to to same as the rooks, to follow the design from the other races recons. Sort these 2 out first before you all go ragequit, slit wrist whatever... True this needs to be sorted out. Maybe reduce the jamming range of the falcon by alot.
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:42:00 - [158] Originally by: Drogher Forerunner Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks Originally by: Drogher Forerunner But if there is not ECM around, it becomes a wasted slot. If there is no explosive dmg around, explosive hardener becomes a wasted slot. True. Good point. I wonder if ECM should have a much shorter optimal range and a bigger falloff. So if they want to jam as well as they do now they have to take more of a risk in being closer. Originally by: TZeer 2: Falcon's ECM power got boosted to to same as the rooks, to follow the design from the other races recons. Sort these 2 out first before you all go ragequit, slit wrist whatever... True this needs to be sorted out. Maybe reduce the jamming range of the falcon by alot. the range is always to much or what whould say the players to 100km webbs disruptors or neutralizers?? an dont forget Neutralizer needs cap booster to work effective after some time
Drogher Forerunner	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:54:00 - [159] Edited by: Drogher Forerunner on 21/12/2008 12:56:06 Originally by: DMF KingBob Originally by: Drogher Forerunner Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks Originally by: Drogher Forerunner But if there is not ECM around, it becomes a wasted slot. If there is no explosive dmg around, explosive hardener becomes a wasted slot. True. Good point. I wonder if ECM should have a much shorter optimal range and a bigger falloff. So if they want to jam as well as they do now they have to take more of a risk in being closer. Originally by: TZeer 2: Falcon's ECM power got boosted to to same as the rooks, to follow the design from the other races recons. Sort these 2 out first before you all go ragequit, slit wrist whatever... True this needs to be sorted out. Maybe reduce the jamming range of the falcon by alot. the range is always to much or what whould say the players to 100km webbs disruptors or neutralizers?? an dont forget Neutralizer needs cap booster to work effective after some time I dunno, a neut doesnt need cap boosters if balanced with noz. But i see your point. I do think ECM should still out range noz and neuts. The ships that use them are paper thin so if you get to fire at them they either have to run or die. I wouldnt mind seeing the rook being used at the ranges that they can be used as now and the falcons having their range reduced to about 80km at most (maybe because of the cloak or something). They have the bonus of staying hidden on the battlefield until a perfect moment or warped into the middle of a battlefield unseen. That they should be able to do it and be effective at 120km+ is unbalanced. I think damps would be more useful again then because they would have a chance at damping the falcons and long range ships(that are not snipers) have a chance at doing something about them). Falcons would still have tonnes of tactics they can use to be effective at those ranges and rooks would fall into the roll of long range jamming and therefore actually have a point again.
Dhejay Centrix Caldari The Wailing Doom	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:57:00 - [160] Originally by: DMF KingBob i got an blackbird in my fleet on the other side of the battle so the hype was jammed too and yes the jamm of the falcon failed some times(never seen this before,maybe something wrong with the skills or so) the battle was a complete fail through ecm becouse ecm pwns all the other ew like warp jammers where is the sense of different tactics when only one is the best? Why was your blackbird not jamming the falcon since that was clearly the biggest problem? Why was your ewar pilot in a blackbird instead of a falcon? What you mean to say is "OMG everyone uses ECM on me and I don't have enough of the right ewar in my fleet to counter it so instead of fixing it using effective tactics I decided to whine about it"

Grumber1 Caldari Bambooule	Posted - 2008.12.21 13:52:00 - [161] I totally agree with you, get ecm out of the game, it destroys the whole pvp
ShadowDraqon The Quantum Company	Posted - 2008.12.21 13:58:00 - [162] How about this: CCP aren't going to remove a whole ship class and market group from the game, so how about we stop whining over nothing? ~ THIS IS A ~ ~ ~ SIGNATURE! ~ ~ Put the MM in the MMO!
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.12.21 15:39:00 - [163] Originally by: ShadowDraqon How about this: CCP aren't going to remove a whole ship class and market group from the game, so how about we stop whining over nothing? OP is a nub, asked him what a constructive solution might be and it was ignored. You lost a ship when jammed GET OVER IT. Oh and that situation where the falcon misses jams every now and then is actually the norm, your either lyeing about being perma-jammed every other fight or ur just incredibly unlucky (probably the first). EVE history t2 precisions
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2008.12.23 11:21:00 - [164] ECM is the condom of pvp, it should be removed or changed completely.
Drogher Forerunner	Posted - 2008.12.23 12:07:00 - [165] Edited by: Drogher Forerunner on 23/12/2008 12:12:49 Originally by: Akiba Penrose ECM is the condom of pvp, it should be removed or changed completely. You see its people like this with arguments like this that make this thread pointless. Its a whine because somebody got jammed or permerjammed because a falcon was lucky (and it would have to actually be Lucky to permerjam). Or who could have claimed permerjammed coz he died within the 20secs of jam cycle, in which case he never stood a chance coz he was out numbered or in a Really pants ship (im begining to think the latter is probably the case in most of crying about ecm stoll my dolly arguments). The person seems unable to equip basic modules (which are not chance based in their opperation) to counter the totally chance base modules of the ecm ship. Is also unable to find out how to fight them or what to do about them by posting ingame chat or by posting on the tactics forums. the player has instead posted the bright idea of removing something from the game or that it should be changed, despite the many replies in the thread on how to get around the ecm or actually offer solutions on how it might be changed or altered. The thing is ECM was not the only thing used that got them killed. It was also warpjammers or disrupters or webs throwing in its two sense to keep you from getting away, because there was no way that falcon was fighting you on its own from 100km. If you replace ECM in that mixture with damps, they can make your ship just as pointless and you cant getaway, also that will permer damp you were ECM is only chance based so it means you will get a chance to do something about it or about something else on the field were as the damps never give you a window of oppertunity to counter it - same for noz/neuts as well. 100km falcon or 40km arazu doesnt matter if there is a point of scram on you and a web. If someone was damped and made just as helpless and got owned there would probably be a post saying to get rid of that too.
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2008.12.23 12:21:00 - [166] Edited by: Akiba Penrose on 23/12/2008 12:21:47 Originally by: Drogher Forerunner You see its people like this with arguments like this that make this thread pointless. You see discussing with people that dont have a clue what they are talking about is also pointless. Hence i rather make a simple statement showing my opinion on the matter.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.23 12:32:00 - [167] Like most ships that can operate at sniper range falcons gain the immunity to certain fits, couple that with the fact that getting jammed is frustrating = LOTS OF EMO POSTS ON THE FORUMS. But it does not make them overpowered.
Drogher Forerunner	Posted - 2008.12.23 12:32:00 - [168] Originally by: Akiba Penrose Edited by: Akiba Penrose on 23/12/2008 12:21:47 Originally by: Drogher Forerunner You see its people like this with arguments like this that make this thread pointless. You see discussing with people that dont have a clue what they are talking about is also pointless. Hence i rather make a simple statement showing my opinion on the matter. The fact ECM is such an issue for you or more accurately for people with arguments like the one above, to the point that you have to suggest a simple oppinion on the matter, kind of proves my point.
Drogher Forerunner	Posted - 2008.12.23 12:35:00 - [169] Originally by: maralt Like most ships that can operate at sniper range falcons gain the immunity to certain fits, couple that with the fact that getting jammed is frustrating = LOTS OF EMO POSTS ON THE FORUMS. But it does not make them overpowered. Would agree with that, and it is definitely frustrating getting jammed. But it does also feel really good when they are trying to jam your ship and nothing happens, and you just carry on like their not even there.
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2008.12.23 12:59:00 - [170] Originally by: Drogher Forerunner The fact ECM is such an issue for you or more accurately for people with arguments like the - Originally by: Akiba Penrose ECM is the condom of pvp, it should be removed or changed completely. -to the point that you have to suggest a simple oppinion on the matter, kind of proves my point. I was making a simple statement, not suggesting a simple opinion. The fact that ECM is such an issue for me i becuase i pvp. Dont see how that is proving whatever point you where tryin to make.

shamai	Posted - 2008.12.23 15:03:00 - [171] Originally by: Akiba Penrose Edited by: Akiba Penrose on 23/12/2008 13:55:16 Originally by: Drogher Forerunner The fact ECM is such an issue for you or more accurately for people with arguments like the - Originally by: Akiba Penrose ECM is the condom of pvp, it should be removed or changed completely. -to the point that you have to suggest a simple oppinion on the matter, kind of proves my point. I was making a simple statement, not suggesting a simple opinion. The fact that ECM is such an issue for me is becuase i pvp. Dont see how that is proving whatever point you where tryin to make. ECM is a problem for everyone as most people forget to tank against it, and yes, that IS possible. If you think about it in terms of tank it helps. After all, most peopel fit a tank against damage of at least some description...why would you leave your ships sensor systems naked as the day they are born?
Boma Airaken The Divine Comedy Celestial Imperative	Posted - 2008.12.23 15:05:00 - [172] Edited by: Boma Airaken on 23/12/2008 15:06:37 counterstrike -> (is that way)(oh yeah, same goes for the cloaking whiners)
Drogher Forerunner	Posted - 2008.12.23 16:12:00 - [173] Originally by: shamai Originally by: Akiba Penrose Edited by: Akiba Penrose on 23/12/2008 13:55:16 Originally by: Drogher Forerunner The fact ECM is such an issue for you or more accurately for people with arguments like the - Originally by: Akiba Penrose ECM is the condom of pvp, it should be removed or changed completely. -to the point that you have to suggest a simple oppinion on the matter, kind of proves my point. I was making a simple statement, not suggesting a simple opinion. Originally by: Akiba Penrose The fact that ECM is such an issue for me is becuase i pvp. Dont see how that is proving whatever point you where tryin to make. You PvP and ecm is that huge of a problem? do you pvp in the hopes that somebody doesnt bring ecm or something? If you dont compensate (or compensate badly) for a possibility that obviously happens often enough to vex you. Then you build bad ships, are bad at stratagey, arent the smartest pvper or are slow to learning how to adapt. Originally by: shamai ECM is a problem for everyone as most people forget to tank against it, and yes, that IS possible. If you think about it in terms of tank it helps. After all, most peopel fit a tank against damage of at least some description...why would you leave your ships sensor systems naked as the day they are born? All absoultely true
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.23 17:02:00 - [174] Pyramid Quotes are hard to read. A bit of the problem many have with ECM is, that countermeasures do not really work. A ship with high sensor strength and ECCM needs multiple ECCM to have a chance to resist a falcon. That is a fact. Other forms of EW could be at least partially resisted through skills. Tracking Disrupters decrease Optimal/Falloff or Tracking of the Turrets, but the Motion Prediction, Sharpshooter and Trajectory Analysis Skills make it at least a bit easier to still hit a target, even when a TD is used. Sensor Dampener have Signature Analysis or Long Range Targeting to help with targeting. In both cases the counter modules Tracking Computers/Enhancers and Sensor Boosters have also useful effects other then just resisting the effect of TD or RSD. The ECCM is only useful when you are at risk of being jammed and there are no skills that increase ECCM effectiveness or the Sensor Strength. One possible solution with ECM would be, to give them scripts that force ECM users to balance range against jamming scripts. Another option would be to introduce counter ECM skills. Example: - Sensor Recalibration,each leavel of skill decreases the time of being jammed by 10%.
shamai	Posted - 2008.12.23 17:27:00 - [175] Edited by: shamai on 23/12/2008 17:31:15 Edited by: shamai on 23/12/2008 17:27:59 Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Pyramid Quotes are hard to read. A bit of the problem many have with ECM is, that countermeasures do not really work. A ship with high sensor strength and ECCM needs multiple ECCM to have a chance to resist a falcon. That is a fact. Other forms of EW could be at least partially resisted through skills. Tracking Disrupters decrease Optimal/Falloff or Tracking of the Turrets, but the Motion Prediction, Sharpshooter and Trajectory Analysis Skills make it at least a bit easier to still hit a target, even when a TD is used. Sensor Dampener have Signature Analysis or Long Range Targeting to help with targeting. In both cases the counter modules Tracking Computers/Enhancers and Sensor Boosters have also useful effects other then just resisting the effect of TD or RSD. The ECCM is only useful when you are at risk of being jammed and there are no skills that increase ECCM effectiveness or the Sensor Strength. One possible solution with ECM would be, to give them scripts that force ECM users to balance range against jamming scripts. Another option would be to introduce counter ECM skills. Example: - Sensor Recalibration,each leavel of skill decreases the time of being jammed by 10%. Coutermeasures do work if you use more than one. If you still get jammed then the falcon/ECM pilot is either very lucky indeed or he is using most if not all of his jammers to shut you down...in which case your buddy should make short work of him. Again I refer to the tank analogy, if you fitted just 1 hardener, you would not seriously expect your tank to be more than moderate in nature would you? Personally my Falcon uses 2 sensor strength boosters, because I DO consider it that important that i dont get jammed ofen...and guess what, I dont. At the same time, I understand that my ship is paper thin, and that if my jam fails im basically dead. You dont see me littering the forum with nerf demands because I cant be arsed to defend myself against whatever weaponary someone cares to throw at me. edit : I cant spell
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.23 17:49:00 - [176] Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 23/12/2008 17:50:27 Sure the ship might be paper thin, but not that paper thin, that it can be easily blown up. Falcons can also use their ECM at a range that is impossible for any other type of EW to reach. Fitting multiple ECCM might work, but once falcon concentrates on you, you will still be jammed about 80% of the time. A single RSD from a falcons gangmate and you will not have time to lock a target before being jammed again. Also how do you want to kill a Falcon that is more then 150km away? A sniper BS or HAC can hit them at maximum range, but at the cost of using their Medslots for Sensor Boosters and Tracking Computers, with no room for multiple ECCM and without ECCM the Falcon will jam them without problem.
shamai	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:00:00 - [177] Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Sure the ship might be paper thin, but not that paper thin, that it can be easily blown up. Falcons can also use their ECM at a range that is impossible for any other type of EW to reach. Fitting multiple ECCM might work, but once falcon concentrates on you, you will still be jammed about 80% of the time. At a simple RSD from a falcons gangmate and you will not have time to lock a target before being jammed again. Also how do you want to kill a Falcon that is more then 150km away? A sniper BS or HAC can hit them at maximum range, but at the cost of using their Medslots for Sensor Boosters and Tracking Computers, with no room for multiple ECCM and without ECCM the Falcon will jam them without problem. So the Falcon is at his optimal range....props to him. You dont need tracking computers to hit out to the range, and you dont need more than 1 sensor booster either. Also note that 1 of the 2 ECCM you fit is a low slot item...oh and you can boost remotely if your having a really hard time. Rokhs and Apocs can hit out to what...200k+? 80% is a wild figure, I personally run with about 97 sensor strength and find im jammed <15% of the time, with remote support the sensor strength could be higher still and a jam even more unlikley. OFC there will be times when the falcon pilot is a jammy git and gets off a series of jams...then there will be times where it doesnt work at all. Fiddling with optimal range "might" (and thats a big might) need looking at, but everything else ive seen in this thread is basically "waa waa I DONT WANT to defend myself and demand that the item is nerfed". Frankly thats just not cricket. The sooner people start defending themselves, the less moans we will see.
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:06:00 - [178] Right now I can only say, that when I see a gang with a falcon arrive, I will be very careful and never engage alone, if I see multiple falcons approaching, I will stay the hell away. Call me a carebear if you want, but instead of PvP I will most likely play the dock and wait game.
Wannabehero Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:10:00 - [179] Edited by: Wannabehero on 23/12/2008 18:12:25 Yeah! Remove ECM, Think of the Children! -- Don't harsh my mellow
shamai	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:10:00 - [180] Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Right now I can only say, that when I see a gang with a falcon arrive, I will be very careful and never engage alone, if I see multiple falcons approaching, I will stay the hell away. Call me a carebear if you want, but instead of PvP I will most likely play the dock and wait game. If your on your own, thats very wise If your in a gang and you make that choice, your not defending yourself against ECM If your in a gang and you make that choice and you are defending against ECM, you have no scroat but I wont call you a bear ;)



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