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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2008.12.16 16:01:00 - [1] it sucks to lose every fight through **ing ecm its comming from 100 km out side of the battle and makes my 2 year close to 50 mil sp char 100% senseless every time it is able in this ing game(where i pay time and money for) to make an fight in low sec without being perma jammed by an **ing alt char or so ?????
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.16 16:04:00 - [2] Oh oh did somebody get jammed?. You were gonna die anyway suck it up.
Nyu Shin	Posted - 2008.12.16 16:40:00 - [3] Plenty of "*" so overall 2/10.
Max Teranous Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.16 16:45:00 - [4] Fit ECCM? Max
KingBobs Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.16 16:59:00 - [5] question:wich module can -disrupt all your turrets to 100% -defend all your missiles -disrupt your remote repair -makes free of warp scrambles and disruptors -makes free of stasis webb -disable attack-orders for drones -disable the EW from your target -more then one can be used at one target without an drawback -all this in an save range of 100km and more out side from the battle ? Right the ECM-****-off module
Master Han The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.16 17:33:00 - [6] Edited by: Master Han on 16/12/2008 17:33:29 Originally by: DMF KingBob and makes my 2 year close to 50 mil sp char 100% senseless every time If you have that many SP in such a short amount of time you must also know how to counteract ECM effectively. BTW, we all know you just want to feel special. There are already dozens of threads about ECM spread throughout almost every channel. You just had to have one of your own in which to appear stupid. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - This is not the alt your looking for...
Straight Chillen Gallente Solar Wind	Posted - 2008.12.16 17:38:00 - [7] Originally by: KingBobs Dawn question:wich module can -disable attack-orders for drones WRONG: Drones that have been assigned a target will keep attack regardless of ECM. And as an added bonus, if your drones are idle, and u have them set to aggress, they will attack anyone who jamms you. There are plenty of counters to ECM ships. Get ANY ship within 40kms and they will trying to run away. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Shpuntik Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.12.16 17:38:00 - [8] just leave ECM alone its one of the good things left in game that can help against blobs now nanos nerfed. ---InViCtA---
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2008.12.16 17:40:00 - [9] there is no way to counter ecm effectivly with except ecm self
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.16 17:40:00 - [10] Edited by: maralt on 16/12/2008 17:40:45 Originally by: DMF KingBob there is no way to counter ecm effectivly with except ecm self Bombers with damps own falcons/ecm ships big time.

DMF KingBob	Posted - 2008.12.16 17:41:00 - [11] Originally by: Straight Chillen Originally by: KingBobs Dawn question:wich module can -disable attack-orders for drones WRONG: Drones that have been assigned a target will keep attack regardless of ECM. And as an added bonus, if your drones are idle, and u have them set to aggress, they will attack anyone who jamms you. There are plenty of counters to ECM ships. Get ANY ship within 40kms and they will trying to run away. WRONG: i cant give attack orders while being jammed
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.16 17:43:00 - [12] Edited by: maralt on 16/12/2008 17:42:59 Originally by: DMF KingBob Originally by: Straight Chillen Originally by: KingBobs Dawn question:wich module can -disable attack-orders for drones WRONG: Drones that have been assigned a target will keep attack regardless of ECM. And as an added bonus, if your drones are idle, and u have them set to aggress, they will attack anyone who jamms you. There are plenty of counters to ECM ships. Get ANY ship within 40kms and they will trying to run away. WRONG: i cant give attack orders while being jammed Then they do not disable attack orders they just stop you from making new ones during the jam cycle.
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2008.12.16 17:48:00 - [13] Edited by: DMF KingBob on 16/12/2008 17:49:50 Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 16/12/2008 17:42:59 Originally by: DMF KingBob Originally by: Straight Chillen Originally by: KingBobs Dawn question:wich module can -disable attack-orders for drones WRONG: Drones that have been assigned a target will keep attack regardless of ECM. And as an added bonus, if your drones are idle, and u have them set to aggress, they will attack anyone who jamms you. There are plenty of counters to ECM ships. Get ANY ship within 40kms and they will trying to run away. WRONG: i cant give attack orders while being jammed Then they do not disable attack orders they just stop you from making new ones during the jam cycle. and when the cycle ends/begins the next..... edit Then they do not disable attack orders they just stop you from making new ones during the jam cycle. LOL u talk bull****
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.16 17:53:00 - [14] Originally by: DMF KingBob EMO RAGE....... Chill dude ecm works but then so do damps well as other things under the right circumstances.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.12.16 17:58:00 - [15] Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 16/12/2008 17:40:45 Originally by: DMF KingBob there is no way to counter ecm effectivly with except ecm self Bombers with damps own falcons/ecm ships big time. They make them warp out and come back, they don¦t own them if you find a nearly competent Falcon Pilot he is aligned and Missles are not Instant Damage and will never hit a Target that is warped out and nearly back in the battle till the Missle is there. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
PeachesAndCream	Posted - 2008.12.16 18:08:00 - [16] Have you tried not sucking? That usually fixes it.
Kulmid The Bastards The Bastards.	Posted - 2008.12.16 18:09:00 - [17] Originally by: Max Teranous Fit ECCM? Max Give up a midslot and still be perma-jammed. What a great idea. Swap the Optimal bonus for a falloff bonus and double it on the falcon. Then half the optimal and half the strength of ECM and give them scripts that double falloff or double strength. Force falcons to fight close if they want to have high chance of jamming. If they wanna sit far away they severely gimp their chances of jamming. _________________
DMF Bive Passive Resistance Ice Coalition	Posted - 2008.12.16 19:08:00 - [18] Edited by: DMF Bive on 16/12/2008 19:11:15 best think is only one or two ecm mod's can be activated for one ship the other mods must be Disabled or used on an other ship. ECM need scrips like the odder EW modules (Sensordamps etc...) for strength or jamming range. all ew mod's are nerfed with scrips but ecm not, that got a boost ,ecm strength on scrops +15% before was 10% and 10% was mostly time to much. My ideas: +ECM -50% strength and optimalrange and falloff +ECM strength scrip +100% strength -50% optimalrange and falloff +ECM range script -50% strength +100 optimalrange and fall off +ECCM +50% strength to the normal strength +Maximum two ECM mod's can be used to jam one ship
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.12.16 19:26:00 - [19] Make ECM only break existing locks but don't make it drop max locked targets to zero? Make ECM reduce max locked targets by a certain number instead of jamming completely? Make ECCM break the jam effect if a successful roll against the jam strength is done? While ECM is still chance based, its effect is imho too absolute compared to other ewar and could use some 'creative readjusting' to balance out instead of just lowering range and/or jam strength. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Haakelen Gallente Cassandra's Light Caeruleum Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.16 19:27:00 - [20] Originally by: PeachesAndCream Have you tried not sucking? That usually fixes it.

DMF Bive Passive Resistance Ice Coalition	Posted - 2008.12.16 19:34:00 - [21] Originally by: Haakelen Originally by: PeachesAndCream Have you tried not sucking? That usually fixes it. that works one or two times but not every time and a falcon is in every 2 man fleet standart
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.16 19:42:00 - [22] Originally by: PeachesAndCream Have you tried not sucking? That usually fixes it. This.
554812 Fromage Frais Industries	Posted - 2008.12.16 20:55:00 - [23] Edited by: 554812 on 16/12/2008 20:56:56 ECM really needs a bit of work. (especially the falcon) second time i've died 100% jammed in like 2 weeks, cant even fight back. bit sh*te imo
Johli Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.12.16 21:06:00 - [24] Successful troll is successful.
amego Caldari Fromage Frais Industries	Posted - 2008.12.16 21:06:00 - [25] over powered, over powered, over powered! in the age of "the balance", can ccp address the falcon? we all know of the tactical advantage it can offer, but it is very detremental to good gameplay. i accept the use of EW, but the success ratio of the falcon is too great, i am 100% behind a balance to the falcon, i have yet to be in the scenario where a falcon has been unsuccessful to repeat a jamming cycle. the case is clear, its too powerful, so ccp, i call on you to address the situation.
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2008.12.16 21:20:00 - [26] Even the devs know that the Falcon and ECM in general is bad for pvp. The real reason why they wont nerf it, is because they enjoy reading the "Nerf the F****** Falcon!" -threads to much.
Straight Chillen Gallente Solar Wind	Posted - 2008.12.16 21:45:00 - [27] Ill cross post this here, cuz im sure most people dont want to hunt for the other thread but Originally by: Straight Chillen I think the easiest way to fix the ECM problem is to simply make ECCM more effective. Right now ECCM is practically useless. You just turn it on and hope you have enough sensor strength to not get jammed or break a cycle. What if ECCM was a more 'active' counter measure. Something like this. When your jammed you activate your ECCM module. It then rolls to see if you break the jamming entirely, shorten the duration, or fail and enjoy the full cycle. The ECCM will have no effect if it is active before the jamming cycle has started. This will stop it from completly overpowering and nullifing ECM, and becoming the new must have mod, and makes it require some degree of skill and interaction instead of just pressing a button and leaving it at that. As all the falcon fanbois are so quick to point out Jamming is chance based. Even though that chance is something like 92%, theres still that little chance that it wont land. This is why i think a chance based ECCM system would be better to counter act it, instead of the current 'improving your odds'. This would mean that ECM ships keep their ability to kill locks at will, But atleast gives their prey a fighting chance to counter them. This allows the falcon to have its get out of jail card still, with jamming tacklers. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
ShadowDraqon The Quantum Company	Posted - 2008.12.16 21:46:00 - [28] uhm... obvious troll is obvious? ~ THIS IS A ~ ~ SIGNATURE! ~ Putting the MM in the MMO!
Straight Chillen Gallente Solar Wind	Posted - 2008.12.16 21:47:00 - [29] Originally by: ShadowDraqon uhm... obvious troll is obvious? if its so obvious why do you sound so uncertain? Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2008.12.16 21:52:00 - [30] Originally by: 554812 Edited by: 554812 on 16/12/2008 20:56:56 ECM really needs a bit of work. (especially the falcon) second time i've died 100% jammed in like 2 weeks, cant even fight back. same to me but in a couple of hours and mostly at friday night too

Reggie Stoneloader Party Crashers INC. Liberty.	Posted - 2008.12.16 22:26:00 - [31] ECM is fine. If it works, it does great. If it fails, it's a waste of time. If one of their guys is in a Falcon, then one of their guys isn't doing any damage or healing, either, and he's not even helping tank. Your problem is that you're outnumbered and outclassed, not that they're using ECM. If you come up against a nanogang and can't hit them, if you get locked down by ECM, if you get neuted into a coma by Curses, if a Dominix grabs you at 0km, if snipers pop you from 230km, if eight log ships spider-tank their battleships to invulnerability, if they cyno six carriers into your bubble, you lost the fight. Paper, rock, scissors. Crusades: Security Status
KingBobs Dawn	Posted - 2008.12.16 22:45:00 - [32] Edited by: KingBobs Dawn on 16/12/2008 22:47:21 Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader ECM is fine. If it works, it does great. If it fails, it's a waste of time. If one of their guys is in a Falcon, then one of their guys isn't doing any damage or healing, either, and he's not even helping tank. Your problem is that you're outnumbered and outclassed, not that they're using ECM. If you come up against a nanogang and can't hit them, if you get locked down by ECM, if you get neuted into a coma by Curses, if a Dominix grabs you at 0km, if snipers pop you from 230km, if eight log ships spider-tank their battleships to invulnerability, if they cyno six carriers into your bubble, you lost the fight. Paper, rock, scissors. Paper, rock, scissors getting jammed by an falcon too!!!!!!! and if one falcon is not enough the rest of the bunch will do it.... go back to your sandbox please ECM sucks
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.16 23:11:00 - [33] The problem is that ECM specialised ships do a bit too well. The advise to fit ECCM does also not work, because even with ECCM fitted a Falcon pilot will not have problems keeping a target jammed. Sure with ECCM the chance is higher that a jammer cycle fails but the risk is still low compared to other types of EW and that the Falcon is able to do this jamming from a distance that only very few Sniper Ships can reach, is just to much. I would love to see the Caldari FOTM pilots introduced to the joy that scripts brought to dampener and tracking disruptors. The best solution would be scripts that force the FOTM user to choose between range and jamming strength. So that Falcons can still fill their role but are at risk by FoF Missiles and Drones, or stay at a safe distance but are only minimaly effective then. Now flame on.
Damoxenos	Posted - 2008.12.16 23:35:00 - [34] Edited by: Damoxenos on 16/12/2008 23:35:51 quote=DMF KingBob]ECM RAGE....... FIXED.. edit: fixed bad quoting, sorry never done it before.. forum noob lol
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.16 23:44:00 - [35] Originally by: Deviana Sevidon The problem is that ECM specialised ships do a bit too well. The advise to fit ECCM does also not work, because even with ECCM fitted a Falcon pilot will not have problems keeping a target jammed. Sure with ECCM the chance is higher that a jammer cycle fails but the risk is still low compared to other types of EW and that the Falcon is able to do this jamming from a distance that only very few Sniper Ships can reach, is just to much. Falcons are annoying but not really hard to figure out once you start thinking that the opposition probably will have some ecm ships when you setup your ships/gang. If anything its the other EW ships that needs a buff to escape this idea that pvp should be just tank and spank with solofitted ships.
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.17 04:50:00 - [36] Originally by: DMF KingBob there is no way to counter ecm effectivly with except ecm self LoL ECCM = electronic COUNTER counter messures a counter to a counter, = lots of counting *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics

CCP Applebabe	Posted - 2008.12.17 05:41:00 - [37] Moved to " General Discussion " forum. Applebabe Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang

fightnkill Violent Fury	Posted - 2008.12.17 05:47:00 - [38] Edited by: fightnkill on 17/12/2008 05:48:23 ECCM doesn't even work a Dominix with with 3 Magnetometric ECCM II on AND Overheat and guess what? STILL GOT JAMMED BY 1 FRIGGIN FALCON! can't even tackle them falcons Welcome to Falcon-Online, Where solo/small group pvp is dominated by one ship that can screw up an entire gang from 150km away.
Nnamuachs Caldari Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.12.17 05:52:00 - [39] Well correct me if i'm wrong at any point here.. but an ECCM module.. will pretty effectively negate a single ECM module yeah? well.. reduce its chances dramatically anyways... the problem people seem to have is that the ratio is required to be 1 to 1.. one sensor booster almost negates a sensor damp, one tracking enhancer almost negates a tracking damp etc... So the problem is falcon pilots fit multiple ECM making it impossible to fight back unless one fits the equivalent amount of ECCM mods yeah? Its a one for one exchange.. one point.. 1 WCS... most people are going to fit 1, 2 points at max.. a full rack of WCS is going to overcome that because theres more counter mods than effect mods. So the same applies to ECM and every other Ewar tbh. Yes perhaps falcons can be effective too far from the fight.. but they're slow and very fragile and even a falcon can't sit outside a dedicated snipers range.. and 1-2 salvos from a dedicated sniper and the falcon is toast. But sure.. nerf the range.. i dont use it anyways
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.12.17 05:57:00 - [40] Originally by: fightnkill Edited by: fightnkill on 17/12/2008 05:48:23 ECCM doesn't even work a Dominix with with 3 Magnetometric ECCM II on AND Overheat and guess what? STILL GOT JAMMED BY 1 FRIGGIN FALCON! can't even tackle them falcons Welcome to Falcon-Online, Where solo/small group pvp is dominated by one ship that can screw up an entire gang from 150km away. Yes you are right, 3 ECCMs should completely negate any number of ECMs an enemy throws at you, in the same way 3 explosive hardeners make you invulnerable to explosive damage! Oh wait... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...

fightnkill Violent Fury	Posted - 2008.12.17 06:04:00 - [41] another thing, i was jammed for TWO cycles, not one. b4 he escaped I mean what's the point of having ECCM's ?
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Burning Horizons	Posted - 2008.12.17 06:06:00 - [42] No removing my best contribution to pvp :) Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Aesheera Amarr Malum Crusis IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.12.17 06:21:00 - [43] Bring your own Falcon? --
Wen Johen	Posted - 2008.12.17 06:23:00 - [44] Edited by: Wen Johen on 17/12/2008 06:23:32 My Falcon alt drinks your tears, OP. On another note, flying Falcons is getting boring. Every time you're called primary. Every time when you're up against a competent gang you'll end up either damped, ecmed in return, have a half a dozen ities charging right for you, or what's worse - they bring ECCM'ed up snipers :( Every time you have to retreat from battle way before it is over, provided you're up against those who come prepared. Life of a Falcon pilot is not all it is made out to be.
Onionico Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.12.17 06:24:00 - [45] It's you. You need to be removed.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.12.17 06:25:00 - [46] Originally by: Aesheera Bring your own Falcon? Which would make the Falcon a mandatory ship. This is bad for diversity and bad for EVE. In a balanced game design something like this should not happen and therefore requires looking into and readjustment. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Mire Stoude Cash Money Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.17 06:26:00 - [47] An Arazu or Lachesis in your gang can neutralize a ranged Falcon as well.
Wen Johen	Posted - 2008.12.17 06:29:00 - [48] Originally by: Abrazzar Originally by: Aesheera Bring your own Falcon? Which would make the Falcon a mandatory ship. This is bad for diversity and bad for EVE. In a balanced game design something like this should not happen and therefore requires looking into and readjustment. or you can bring * any interceptor * sniping battleship, rokhs and apocs work well * lachesis/arazu first two will either eliminate the falcon of make it leave the battlefield, last ones will make it unable to target anything and do its falcon thing
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.17 06:33:00 - [49] Originally by: ShadowDraqon uhm... obvious troll is obvious? Yes.
Ticondrius Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.17 06:33:00 - [50] ECM at it's finest: Raspberry! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PROPOSAL: Chaos Incarnate's Face MMORPG: Many Men Online Role Playing Girls

Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.17 06:34:00 - [51] Originally by: Nnamuachs Well correct me if i'm wrong at any point here.. You were pretty much wrong from there on.
ViperVenom Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.17 06:45:00 - [52] I detect some 1 who did not fit eccm..... well u fail try again --Yarring in a system near you--
Calvin Roh	Posted - 2008.12.17 08:00:00 - [53] OP.. your right it sucks to loose a fight the same way. The same is true of being webbed, pointed and neuted - its the exact same thing... Someone has taken a tactic and pushed it to an extreme on a ship fitting and made good use of it... its exactly the same! Where is the balance in the game if you cant even tank or cant even maneuver in a fight? I think you get my point... As an EWar pilot, it is common to be rendered ineffective with the right tactics put against you, which holds true for any ship and fitting in the game. And there have been several times that not a single cycle was able to jam a target ships that is not that great with ECCM to start with. While i may on some days agree that the falcon allows for some great bonuses to EWar, on other days I also remember that on a 1 for 1 comparison the Caldari line of ships is outclassed in just about every role after the missile adjustment, which forced you to loose a precious shield mid slot to a painter if you hoped to make use of the millions of missile skill points one has been training for. So to make the one role that a caldari ship skill tree can make decent use of weaker, REALLY risks making the entire Caldari line of ships pointless for anything but low level mining and hauling. I think this is why you are seeing so many falcon pilots out there now - lacking a decent gun boat (on a 1 to 1 like ship-class comparison) and the fact that the missile correction killed any hope of DPS AND decent shield tanks, all the Caldari pilots made the quick slide over to the falcon and could be useful in a fleet again and get on the KBs. If CCP is going to correct ECM, then they will need to address this larger issue as well. Where my Ewar has been rendered ineffective is where the opposing fleets are made up of more than just short-mid range damage dealers and tacklers for damage dealers... have some long range hitters, have some ships who's job it is to roam the rear ranks of the enemy fleet. Don't bring the entire fleet in at one time, for one giant slug fest, hold some tactical assets back, get the enemy to commit and then unleash them. Don't do this and you allow Ewar pilots to take advantage of their strengths and not worry about their weaknesses. And ill admit that i really dont want to see Ewar "ballanced" because it will mean my current toons are worth half the skills points invested just because i made the arbitrary mistake of choosing the caldari race which has turned out to be a pvp-dud for the most part, and then have to start down the long road of new ship and weapon skills trees so that I can fly a ship the way you think they ought to be. ill get off my soap box now.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.17 08:20:00 - [54] is that you Jeff Freeman?
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.12.17 08:40:00 - [55] Originally by: DMF KingBob it sucks to lose every fight through **ing ecm its comming from 100 km out side of the battle and makes my 2 year close to 50 mil sp char 100% senseless every time it is able in this ing game(where i pay time and money for) to make an fight in low sec without being perma jammed by an **ing alt char or so ????? Yes a game where you can only tank and spank sounds like fun! --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Bohoba Caldari HolyKnights	Posted - 2008.12.17 08:50:00 - [56] Oh great the wine starts and another Cald Nerf on the way :( but I don't care anymore I am a carebear now mining beams forever hehehehe ....................... 10.5 hours a day do you have what it takes ?
Xioden Acap Lightspeed Enterprises Burning Horizons	Posted - 2008.12.17 09:22:00 - [57] The obvious solution is to bring an anti-Falcon-Falcon. Since they'll likely have an Anti-Falcon-Falcon aswell, You'll need an Anti-Falcon-Falcon-Falcon. And since they'll have Have an Anti-Falcon-Falcon-Falcon-Falcon aswell, You'll need an Anti-Falcon-Falcon-Fal... You know what? The obvious solution is just for everyone to Falc.. I mean fight in Falcons.
Dibsi Dei Salamyhkaisten kilta	Posted - 2008.12.17 09:25:00 - [58] Originally by: KingBobs Dawn question:wich module can -disrupt all your turrets to 100% -defend all your missiles -disrupt your remote repair -makes free of warp scrambles and disruptors -makes free of stasis webb -disable attack-orders for drones -disable the EW from your target -more then one can be used at one target without an drawback -all this in an save range of 100km and more out side from the battle ? Right the ECM-****-off module Quoting because it's true.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2008.12.17 09:36:00 - [59] if eccm worked , we would be spared all these ****in threads ---------- Seasons Greetings and have a Happy Alvis Time
Nebulous Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.12.17 09:42:00 - [60] Originally by: DMF KingBob it sucks to lose every fight through **ing ecm its comming from 100 km out side of the battle and makes my 2 year close to 50 mil sp char 100% senseless every time it is able in this ing game(where i pay time and money for) to make an fight in low sec without being perma jammed by an **ing alt char or so ????? Kingbob what does it matter to someone who gets all his pvp from can baiting in Amarr anyway? You are also the king of dirty tricks, you and your crew use every dirty trick in the book, you make out your offering fair 1v1's then you get neutrals or sometimes alliance/corp friends to rep you once you realise your going to lose. I don't like ECM either, but if it annoys you then it should be kept as it is for just that reason. p.s. tell your corp to not make their KB public unless they have the decency post losses as well. bye

Tippia Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.12.17 09:43:00 - [61] Edited by: Tippia on 17/12/2008 09:43:53 Originally by: HankMurphy if eccm worked , we would be spared all these ****in threads We would also be spared from them if people used counter-ECM tactics and ships. And like others have already done, I'd like to reiterate the three lols of Arazus and Lacheses (or whatever the plural is) from a previous thread: LOL! You now have a lock-on range of 2μm. LOL! You can't escape or catch up because of 20km scrams. LOL! Here, have a helping of counter-cruiser drones. No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.12.17 09:46:00 - [62] sensor backup arays, and eccm BOTH work, and i dont even fly a friggin falcon. - DAMT - If you dont know, well, you dont know!
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.12.17 09:52:00 - [63] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 17/12/2008 09:53:10 Originally by: KingBobs Dawn question:wich module can -disrupt all your turrets to 100% -defend all your missiles -disrupt your remote repair -makes free of warp scrambles and disruptors -makes free of stasis webb -disable attack-orders for drones -disable the EW from your target -more then one can be used at one target without an drawback -all this in an save range of 100km and more out side from the battle ? Right the ECM-****-off module The issue is not ECM. ECM is fine. With that said, I am sure that if CCP had redesigned ECM tommorow, then all 4 races would have had it, but with the difference being that each race would specialise in the racial variant. -- Billion Isk Mission
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.17 10:13:00 - [64] Originally by: NeoTheo sensor backup arays, and eccm BOTH work, and i dont even fly a friggin falcon. There's also a gang warfare link that provides a nice bonus to sensor strength.
Xtreem Gallente Knockaround Guys Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.17 10:15:00 - [65] Just a few days ago i got into some small group action the 2 gangs were our gang 4 x bs theirs - eagle, demios, sabre, raven, thorax, harbinger, vexor , oynx , falcon, falcon, few intercepters. now we are fine with being outnumbered but we had faith in our dps, the problem was 3 or at some points all 4 of our bs were jammed, by 2 ships that were 150km away, im fine with them being able to jam as long as they can only do so at a closer range! they just need a much harsher fall off or somthing, when one of our bs went down, the 3 of us left were permajammed, although we done well, and won the fight overall they held the gate as eing perma jammed we had to stop and leave, being that we could not target anything lol, they do need to be, re adjusted
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.17 10:18:00 - [66] Originally by: Xtreem Just a few days ago i got into some small group action the 2 gangs were our gang 4 x bs theirs - eagle, demios, sabre, raven, thorax, harbinger, vexor , oynx , falcon, falcon, few intercepters. now we are fine with being outnumbered but we had faith in our dps, the problem was 3 or at some points all 4 of our bs were jammed, by 2 ships that were 150km away, im fine with them being able to jam as long as they can only do so at a closer range! they just need a much harsher fall off or somthing, when one of our bs went down, the 3 of us left were permajammed, although we done well, and won the fight overall they held the gate as eing perma jammed we had to stop and leave, being that we could not target anything lol, they do need to be, re adjusted I highlighted the fail part. So their balanced gang, 2x your numbers, butchered your 4 BS with no support at all. Surprise... Do you think you'd have done any better if they'd had a couple of Curses instead? (hint: No, you'd have died even faster)
Tippia Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.12.17 10:21:00 - [67] Edited by: Tippia on 17/12/2008 10:21:47 Originally by: Xtreem Just a few days ago i got into some small group action the 2 gangs were our gang 4 x bs theirs - eagle, demios, sabre, raven, thorax, harbinger, vexor , oynx , falcon, falcon, few intercepters. So let's see here… A cookie-cutter brute squad versus a well-rounded gang of everything from light and nimble to heavy; from tacklers to support to damage dealers; from short to long-range DPS ships; using every weapon system in the game. Yeah, I think you should have lost that on pure principle — ewar or not. No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
Le Cardinal Black Plague.	Posted - 2008.12.17 10:28:00 - [68] Hey Mom! Im posting in a nerdrage thread where nubs whine about ecm. Eccm works fine. Ive used it several times and it works. basically, get some skills. Learn how to pvp, and dont come here whining if you try to beat the world solo. It was just a matter of time before ppl started whining about ecm too.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.17 10:40:00 - [69] Originally by: HankMurphy if eccm worked , we would be spared all these ***in threads For ECCM to work it must be fitted, then activated.* For some reason these ECM nullo trolls can never seem to produce the killmails of their 12 quad-ECCM'd BS which were permajammed by a single falcon from 249Km. And I do mean never. In over a year of asking in these stupid whine threads, I have always asked for this basic proof and the people who complain about ECCM have always failed to provide it. And since ECCM should provide pretty damb good protection from jamming, if it's not working, why haven't you bug-reported it?
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2008.12.17 10:58:00 - [70] Originally by: Dasfry Originally by: DMF KingBob there is no way to counter ecm effectivly with except ecm self LoL ECCM = electronic COUNTER counter messures a counter to a counter, = lots of counting hm that means it should give the ability that the jammer jamm his self x) and falcons are hard to figure out and to beat becouse the can warp cloaked with out an drawback!!!

Mac Maniac Caldari Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:01:00 - [71] Edited by: Mac Maniac on 17/12/2008 11:05:32 Let me guess the classic BS remote repping gang vs. the T2 warp scram/jamming gang. T2 gang breaks the repping gang's locks, T2 gang wins.. T2 gang fails at breaking the repping, BS gang wins. Looks like tactics and strategy (on both sides) to me. As far as ECM goes, Looks like the OP needs to adjust his strategy and tactics to compensate for ECM not adjust the game for his lack of planning.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:02:00 - [72] Originally by: DMF KingBob Originally by: Dasfry Originally by: DMF KingBob there is no way to counter ecm effectivly with except ecm self LoL ECCM = electronic COUNTER counter messures a counter to a counter, = lots of counting hm that means it should give the ability that the jammer jamm his self x) and falcons are hard to figure out and to beat becouse the can warp cloaked with out an drawback!!! actuly that would be interested. when activated ECCM makes it so there is a chance any incomming ECM will backfire and jam the jammer.
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:09:00 - [73] Originally by: DMF KingBob Originally by: Dasfry Originally by: DMF KingBob there is no way to counter ecm effectivly with except ecm self LoL ECCM = electronic COUNTER counter messures a counter to a counter, = lots of counting hm that means it should give the ability that the jammer jamm his self x) and falcons are hard to figure out and to beat becouse the can warp cloaked with out an drawback!!! the eccm should give the pilot an effective chance to reflect the ecm maybe supported by an effectiv skill like eccm-interfacing wich gives 20% to the chance of reflection becouse the current state of eccm is very sennsless i have seen ships with over 200 sensor strengh that getting perma-jammed(cycle on cycle) by an falcon
Taua Roqa Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:13:00 - [74] dude you should try full agro in guristas 'the assault'. The air turns blue I can tell ya
Squably Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:13:00 - [75] Originally by: DMF KingBob it sucks to lose every fight through **ing ecm its comming from 100 km out side of the battle and makes my 2 year close to 50 mil sp char 100% senseless every time it is able in this ing game(where i pay time and money for) to make an fight in low sec without being perma jammed by an **ing alt char or so ????? So you fail epicly. Learn how to pvp and come back. Signature removed. Please do not imply profanity in your signature. Navigator
KeLLaX HUNLAR the Almighty Scalar Federation	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:15:00 - [76] Originally by: DMF KingBob there is no way to counter ecm effectivly with except ecm self put 2 eccms on a combat recon and solo any falcon :) tested & found successful
Mickey Simon Noir.	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:17:00 - [77] Originally by: DMF KingBob i have seen ships with over 200 sensor strengh that getting perma-jammed(cycle on cycle) by an falcon Wouldn't mind seeing some proof tbfh. ECCM does work, and a single sniper BS fitted with 1 ECCM can annoy a falcon enough to make it disengage and leave the fight if it's sensible, or pop it if it's not. (and for those whining and crying "ECCM DOESN'T WORK!" it does, you need to activate it BEFORE you are jammed) ECM is chance based. Tracking disruptors are not. Sensor dampners are not. Drones will still attack while you are being ECM'd. FoF missiles still work when you're being ECM'd. If you can't fight effectively without ECM ruining your day - you might want to change how you're fighting. Meanwhile, on the other side of town . . .
Karille Gallente Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:19:00 - [78] Originally by: DMF KingBob Originally by: DMF KingBob Originally by: Dasfry Originally by: DMF KingBob there is no way to counter ecm effectivly with except ecm self LoL ECCM = electronic COUNTER counter messures a counter to a counter, = lots of counting hm that means it should give the ability that the jammer jamm his self x) and falcons are hard to figure out and to beat becouse the can warp cloaked with out an drawback!!! the eccm should give the pilot an effective chance to reflect the ecm maybe supported by an effectiv skill like eccm-interfacing wich gives 20% to the chance of reflection becouse the current state of eccm is very sennsless i have seen ships with over 200 sensor strengh that getting perma-jammed(cycle on cycle) by an falcon Screw ECCM. Why doesn't a Sensor Booster boost sensor strength? I say it should also be given a bonus for sensor strength and an associated script be designed. Also, jamming is freakin chance based. As in, There's a CHANCE it'll be insane and work every time. But anyway if you think it's overpowered why don't you ask about changing the formula, giving it a base failure chance that can't be overcome? (jammer strength/target strength) - base failure rate = chance to jam Doesn't matter to me either way though. Vote for Karille next CSM cycle. Forum players need a voice too.
Xtreem Gallente Knockaround Guys Inc.	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:26:00 - [79] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Xtreem Just a few days ago i got into some small group action the 2 gangs were our gang 4 x bs theirs - eagle, demios, sabre, raven, thorax, harbinger, vexor , oynx , falcon, falcon, few intercepters. now we are fine with being outnumbered but we had faith in our dps, the problem was 3 or at some points all 4 of our bs were jammed, by 2 ships that were 150km away, im fine with them being able to jam as long as they can only do so at a closer range! they just need a much harsher fall off or somthing, when one of our bs went down, the 3 of us left were permajammed, although we done well, and won the fight overall they held the gate as eing perma jammed we had to stop and leave, being that we could not target anything lol, they do need to be, re adjusted I highlighted the fail part. So their balanced gang, 2x your numbers, butchered your 4 BS with no support at all. Surprise... Do you think you'd have done any better if they'd had a couple of Curses instead? (hint: No, you'd have died even faster) i highlighted your fail part, being that isk and loss wise we won, they lost hacs, bs, etc, we only lost 1, you obviously missed my point, we dont like to bob with large blobs, my point is no matter what ships we were in, we could have done nothing to stop them, infact in this instance we were best of in bs due to there sensor strenth. if we were in fast ships, we would still be jammed if we were in all tanked ships - jammed dps ships - jammed ecm ships, maybe if we got the first jam in we could jam them, but with only 4 in our gang having 2 of our own ecm to take out there ecm, when they were 150km away from gate and we were jumping into gate would have got our them killed before we could of been any use. i dont know who u decided to reply in such a hostile way, seeing as all i suggested is they just make them have to do it closer, rather than so damned far away, as i do not want them gone at all, just make them less untouchable and then to suggest "I failed" with your so funny highlighted you fail (which i decided to borrow) and suggest that we even lost, when in fact we did not is pretty laughable, but thanks for taking the time to be so hostile :)
Le Cardinal Black Plague.	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:27:00 - [80] Originally by: DMF KingBob Originally by: Dasfry Originally by: DMF KingBob there is no way to counter ecm effectivly with except ecm self LoL ECCM = electronic COUNTER counter messures a counter to a counter, = lots of counting hm that means it should give the ability that the jammer jamm his self x) and falcons are hard to figure out and to beat becouse the can warp cloaked with out an drawback!!! Falcons are supposed to be hard to figure out, oh because they are supposed to be hard to find. Just like a rapier, a pigrim and arazu. Fit a lowslot eccm and/or a medslot eccm, or fit remote eccm if you fly in gangs to boost eachother. And get ecm in your gang. Its all about skills. A falcon pilot with crappy ew skills wont manage to jam anything at range. Thus hes easy prey if he comes close. Good ecm skills means he have trained alot for it and deserve to jam you if you havent bother to train to counter it.

Tais Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:28:00 - [81] Quote: ECM is chance based. Only if sensors are more powerfull than ECM. Otherwise = permajam. Dampeners are useless in mid-close range. ECM still 100% effective. Quote: Drones will still attack while you are being ECM'd. FoF missiles still work when you're being ECM'd. From 170-250km ??? Your' joking ?? That's normal working distance of falcons. And drones attack within 57 at max skills. FOF missiles will fire at nearest agressive target. This meaning usually HACs and intys holding you. Doing almost 0 damage. = Fail. Missiles are only Caldari weapon. And they are not a good option in PvP. Quote: If you can't fight effectively without ECM ruining your day - you might want to change how you're fighting. Totally wrong.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:32:00 - [82] Face facts - EW is in the game, and you're going to have to deal with it. Remove ECM, and people will simply switch to tracking disruptors. A pair of Curses would easily be able to put a TD on each of your ships, and they'd be nuking the secondary's cap and chewing on the primary with 10 bonused Hammerhead IIs as well while you sat there, able to lock for all the good it would do your oversized guns with 60% less tracking than before, trying to hit anything and failing horribly. In fact if they'd had those Curses instead, I reckon you'd have taken more losses. Your small one-trick DPS gang will always be outclassed by a larger, balanced gang whether it has falcons or not.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:34:00 - [83] Face facts - EW is in the game, and you're going to have to deal with it. Remove ECM, and people will simply switch to tracking disruptors. A pair of Curses would easily be able to put a TD on each of your ships, and they'd be nuking the secondary's cap and chewing on the primary with 10 bonused Hammerhead IIs as well while you sat there, able to lock for all the good it would do your oversized guns with 60% less tracking than before, trying to hit anything and failing horribly. In fact if they'd had those Curses instead, I reckon you'd have taken more losses. Your small one-trick DPS gang will always be outclassed by a larger, balanced gang whether it has falcons or not.
Mickey Simon Noir.	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:36:00 - [84] Originally by: Tais Quote: ECM is chance based. Only if sensors are more powerfull than ECM. Otherwise = permajam. If you can give me a falcon/rook setup that will have a jamming strength of ~40-50 for a racial ECM I'd agree it's OP (BS sensor strength when using an ECCM). As it stands, I think the average is about a jam strength of 15-18 with good skills and T1 rigs. Sure, you've got more than 1 jammer, but if the falcon/rook has 5 racials of your type, they're kinda gimped against other types and that's their weakness . . . Quote: Quote: If you can't fight effectively without ECM ruining your day - you might want to change how you're fighting. Totally wrong. How so? I can't win against a Mega in my Ibis, obviously Megathrons are OP - let's nerf them. I can't win against a Tempest in my failfit Rohk with small projectiles, obviously Tempests are OP - let's nerf them. If you're not willing to change your tactics or how you're fighting to get rid of ECM boats when they do come on grid, then you deserve to get jammed and killed. Meanwhile, on the other side of town . . .
Neamus	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:37:00 - [85] I agree with the OP, ECM basically sucks donkey balls at the moment. Its over powered, even with two ECCM fitted, when it fails every other cycle its still enough to completely take you out of a fight. Giving up mid slots for ECCM isn't really a viable option atm, you're gimping your ship for something that has little or no effect most of the time. Currently the only real way to fight ECM is with more ECM. Please either nerf ECM or boost ECCM, as things stand it's just no fun at all.
Tippia Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:45:00 - [86] Originally by: Tais From 170-250km ??? Your' joking ?? That's normal working distance of falcons. And drones attack within 57 at max skills. Actually, it's 60km without ship bonuses, 85 in drone-specific ships. Quote: Missiles are only Caldari weapon. And they are not a good option in PvP. Wat? Are you saying that only Caldari use missiles? No. There are plenty of ships among the other races that are missile boats. Or are you saying that the Caldari ships only use missiles? In which case no again — they have a large assortment of hybrid turret ships. No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
Tippia Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:53:00 - [87] Originally by: Le Cardinal Fit a lowslot eccm and/or a medslot eccm, or fit remote eccm if you fly in gangs to boost eachother. …speaking of which, I find it interesting that in a time when remote-repping is as popular as ever, things like remote sensor boosting and remote eccm goes almost completely unnoticed even though the principle is exactly the same and even though the effectiveness of the gang-support mods is far greater than what you get from fitting self-support modules. No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
Tais Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:55:00 - [88] Originally by: Mickey Simon If you can give me a falcon/rook setup that will have a jamming strength of ~40-50 for a racial ECM I'd agree it's OP (BS sensor strength when using an ECCM). Who needs 40-50 str ?? I only want to say, that last time i was in fight support vs capitals, 6-7 carriers were almost perma-jammed by the same ammount of falcons. Quote: As it stands, I think the average is about a jam strength of 15-18 with good skills and T1 rigs. Sure, you've got 14.5 approx. Rigs having heavy penalty, so they are almost useless Quote: If you can't fight effectively without ECM ruining your day - you might want to change how you're fighting. Totally wrong. How so? I can't win against a Mega in my Ibis, obviously Megathrons are OP - let's nerf them. I can't win against a Tempest in my failfit Rohk with small projectiles, obviously Tempests are OP - let's nerf them. Actually you can. Ibis + Falcon. you run out of batterys in time %) Quote: If you're not willing to change your tactics or how you're fighting to get rid of ECM boats when they do come on grid, then you deserve to get jammed and killed. This is why i'm very carefull them facing cloacked enemys. 1-2 falcons can totally disable small roaming gang. And yes. ECM is overpowered. I admit it even if i use it. It must be in game, but it need to be balanced. Specialized EW ship with 3!!! bonuses to 1 weapon system is Overpowered. Other Force-Recons have splitted bonuses to: Damage (Drone in pilgrim). Primary EW (TD in pilgrim). Secodary (Drain\Neut ammount in pilgrim) And none of them have EW range bonus like Falcons. There will be less problems with 70-80km jammer optimal not 200+
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:58:00 - [89] "Waaaahhhh, I have to fit ECCM to counter ECM. Waaaahhhhh, ECCM doesn't make me immune" Did every Caldari missile-whiner suddenly buy a new char? ECCM works fine. No it wont help you if every single enemy jammer is on you, but guess what, if you had every single enemy damp on you, you wouldn't do **** either. Let me give you a tip; All other than Caldari EWAR works pretty good on non-EWAR ships. Sensor damps turn ECM-ships into nothing more than paperweights. Every single scenario in this whine-thread would have failed had the opponent flown Lachesis/Arazu as well. It's not the ship, it's you.
Frances Ducoir Gallente Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:59:00 - [90] Originally by: Mickey Simon ECM is chance based. Tracking disruptors are not. Sensor dampners are not. Drones will still attack while you are being ECM'd. FoF missiles still work when you're being ECM'd. If you can't fight effectively without ECM ruining your day - you might want to change how you're fighting. fail compare the range of ECM & tracking disruptors / sensor dampers and try again. sensor damper with mediocre skills has opt range of 33+ km and a falloff of 72 km. that means beyond 33km it IS CHANCE BASED. (~50% chance at 100km) i dont know why people still keep spilling this crap about ecm being chance based and other ewar not. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch

Tais Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.17 11:59:00 - [91] Originally by: Tippia Wat? Are you saying that only Caldari use missiles? No. There are plenty of ships among the other races that are missile boats. Or are you saying that the Caldari ships only use missiles? In which case no again ù they have a large assortment of hybrid turret ships. Other ship missing range \ velocity bonuses, and Amarrs mostly use close range missiles. Typhoon have only 4 launchers, have crappy damage and still stuck within 100km range (aprox). Yes, Caldari have turrets, but point was in FOF missiles. Do caldari have FOF turrets too ??
Tippia Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:03:00 - [92] Originally by: Tais And none of them have EW range bonus like Falcons. There will be less problems with 70-80km jammer optimal not 200+ Ehm… The following Recon ships have an EWar optimal bonus: + Falcon (+100% from mandatory Cruiser V) + Rook (+100% from mandatory Cruiser V) + Arazu (+20% – +100% from Recon I–V) + Lachesis (+20% – +100% from Recon I–V) + Rapier (+60% – +300% from Recon I–V) + Huginn (+60% – +300% from Recon I–V) No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
Gonada Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:06:00 - [93] lol nice one 2 years and 50 mill SP, pure bull****. the op has most likely bought his char. 1/10 troll Please, jump into traffic
Captin Corsair	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:10:00 - [94] all ECM should do is break a lock with a minor non stacked relock relay. Done!
Tais Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:11:00 - [95] Originally by: Tippia Ehmà The following Recon ships have an EWar optimal bonus: + Falcon (+100% from mandatory Cruiser V) + Rook (+100% from mandatory Cruiser V) <--- Combat + Arazu (+20% û +100% from Recon IûV) + Lachesis (+20% û +100% from Recon IûV) <--- Combat + Rapier (+60% û +300% from Recon IûV) + Huginn (+60% û +300% from Recon IûV) <--- Combat Force Recons is not Combat Recons. And now compare primary EW base optimal. Rapier - Stasis 10km -> 40km Arazu - Warp disruptor 24km -> 48km Falcon - ECM 45km(no skill bonuses) -> 162km (skills+ship bonus) making sense ??
El Yatta Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:12:00 - [96] Stupid idea in a stupid post from a stupid person. That's fairly stupid. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:15:00 - [97] Honestly, ECM is a very frustrating form of electronic warfare because you cannot do much in battle. But what would you replace it with?
Tais Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:16:00 - [98] Originally by: El Yatta Stupid idea in a stupid post from a stupid person. That's fairly stupid. Totally agree. Removing ECM - No Balancing ECM - Yes
Tais Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:19:00 - [99] Edited by: Tais on 17/12/2008 12:21:47 Originally by: TimMc Honestly, ECM is a very frustrating form of electronic warfare because you cannot do much in battle. But what would you replace it with? For a start remove falcons ECM Optimal range and give him Missile damage bonus. As all Force recons have. + There was idea of scripted ECM. This would solve most of it. Splitted to Jam STR and Optimal. I can live with 28 jammer STR at 30-40km. or 7 at 200
Research Rachel	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:21:00 - [100] Originally by: Tais Originally by: Mickey Simon If you can give me a falcon/rook setup that will have a jamming strength of ~40-50 for a racial ECM I'd agree it's OP (BS sensor strength when using an ECCM). Who needs 40-50 str ?? I only want to say, that last time i was in fight support vs capitals, 6-7 carriers were almost perma-jammed by the same ammount of falcons. carriers almost perma-jammed? you ever tried to jam a carrier? even with max falcon, it takes a few cycles to to jam one and in that time it's easy for a carrier to launch fighters at you. and anyway, where the f* was the carriers support? Originally by:** Tais And yes. ECM is overpowered. I admit it even if i use it. It must be in game, but it need to be balanced. Specialized EW ship with 3!!! bonuses to 1 weapon system is Overpowered. Other Force-Recons have splitted bonuses to: Damage (Drone in pilgrim). Primary EW (TD in pilgrim). Secodary (Drain\Neut ammount in pilgrim) And none of them have EW range bonus like Falcons. There will be less problems with 70-80km jammer optimal not 200+ azuru, curse, rapier all have drones, plus turrets to use for offensive weapons (missiles, rails or neuts), plus ew, can scram, web... can all be used solo. falcon's only use is to jam... it has 2 lauchers with the dps of a wet fish, if falcon gets touched then i want a falcon solo mobile like the others. but at the end of the day you suck, you failed to use any of the counters to a falcon and now your failwhining on here, seriously, learn to counter stuff without the whine module and you'll see the falcons a one trick pony... granted it does it well when you noobs fail to fit correctly but how is that our fault?

castraitory Minmatar AND THEN NO YOU	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:24:00 - [101] Is it to late to train up for a falcon? Was going to but I think they will be nerfed b4 I have decent skills. I think the falcon needs a nerf, when you see kill boards and 10-20% of the fleet is made up of falcons you know something is wrong. The easiest solution is the range as the other recons with t2 gear have to be within 50km. Think that would make them think twice about uncloaking.
Amanda Wilkins Caldari Dromedary Goat Albatross and Fish Big Bang Quantum	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:30:00 - [102] Originally by: DMF KingBob WRONG: i cant give attack orders while being jammed ECM jams your vent? Tell the group to attack the ECM ship, use FOF missiles, use drones set to guard... and stop being a whiney baby Amanda Wilkins CEO of Dromedary, Goat, Albatross and Fish ***** DGAF teaches PVP to new players and veterans alike ... because we DGAF!
Tais Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:32:00 - [103] Originally by: Research Rachel carriers almost perma-jammed? you ever tried to jam a carrier? even with max falcon, it takes a few cycles to to jam one and in that time it's easy for a carrier to launch fighters at you. and anyway, where the f* was the carriers support? Imagine. Yes. They were perma-jammed. Each Falcon have 2 racial jammers, even if 1-2 cycles missed, others do theyr job. Fighters were chacing our ships all around system. Enemy support was butcherd. Quote: azuru, curse, rapier all have drones, plus turrets to use for offensive weapons (missiles, rails or neuts), plus ew, can scram, web... can all be used solo. 100% damage bonus i can live with that too :D Quote: falcon's only use is to jam... it has 2 lauchers with the dps of a wet fish, if falcon gets touched then i want a falcon solo mobile like the others. Exactly. As i said before. Narrow specialized ship with 3 bonuses. Give him something else. Quote:** but at the end of the day you suck, you failed to use any of the counters to a falcon and now your failwhining on here, seriously, learn to counter stuff without the whine module and you'll see the falcons a one trick pony... granted it does it well when you noobs fail to fit correctly but how is that our fault? I don't have problems then i have falcons in my fleet. OP starter does. But i support ECM balacing \ falcon nerf.
castraitory Minmatar AND THEN NO YOU	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:32:00 - [104] Originally by: Amanda Wilkins Originally by: DMF KingBob WRONG: i cant give attack orders while being jammed ECM jams your vent? Tell the group to attack the ECM ship, use FOF missiles, use drones set to guard... and stop being a whiney baby Your Drones go 200km? Nice drones.
Kwa Kaine eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:34:00 - [105] Whats the best counter to a falcon... Another falcon. The predominant whine for the nano nerf was that the only way to counter nano was with more nano. Do I smell a nerf to ECM coming??? It'll be good when they nerf them tbh, then I wont have to bring my falcon alt along with me all the time just in case someone uncloaks a falcon on me in the middle of a good brawl. CCP = Blizzard in training
Tais Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:39:00 - [106] Originally by: Kwa Kaine Whats the best counter to a falcon... Another falcon. Wrong. I use ECCM on mine. GL jamming. Quote: The predominant whine for the nano nerf was that the only way to counter nano was with more nano. Do I smell a nerf to ECM coming??? Nano had alot of options to counter except other nano. ECM have 1 - ECCM (and maybe other ECM to counter-jam)
Tippia Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:40:00 - [107] Edited by: Tippia on 17/12/2008 12:45:08 Originally by: Kwa Kaine Whats the best counter to a falcon... Another falcon. Nah… Arazu. Keeps the sucker from escaping too… Originally by: Tais Force Recons is not Combat Recons. Irrelevant, since the FRs and CRs have the same EWar bonuses — you should know this. Quote: And now compare primary EW base optimal. Also irrelevant. Your argument was that the Falcon was the only one with a range bonus. You should know this too. Just like you should know the max range of drones. In fact, there are quite a few things about this that you don't seem to know about. No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
Ms Flint Caldari Magnum Opus Mineral Retrieval Magnum Opus.	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:44:00 - [108] Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: PeachesAndCream Have you tried not sucking? That usually fixes it. This. seconded. either: get some sp and fit some ecm yourself. or.... cry some more... and contract you tears to me - they make excellent POS fuel. ______________ remember: internet spaceships are serious business!
Tais Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:46:00 - [109] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Kwa Kaine Whats the best counter to a falcon... Another falcon. Nahà Arazu. Keeps the sucker from escaping tooà Hmm. BTW good option, but still a problem to get in 40-60km range scramble him with latest nano nerf.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:46:00 - [110] Originally by: Gonada lol nice one 2 years and 50 mill SP, pure bull****. the op has most likely bought his char. 1/10 troll is it even possible ot get that much sp in 2 years? I'm running to 3 years and I never miss a skill. I have 40 million sp.

Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:46:00 - [111] Originally by: Tais Edited by: Tais on 17/12/2008 12:21:47 Originally by: TimMc Honestly, ECM is a very frustrating form of electronic warfare because you cannot do much in battle. But what would you replace it with? For a start remove falcons ECM Optimal range and give him Missile damage bonus. As all Force recons have. + There was idea of scripted ECM. This would solve most of it. Splitted to Jam STR and Optimal. I can live with 28 jammer STR at 30-40km. or 7 at 200 This makes sense, but... ...don't forget to give the Falcon a fighting chance such as a dronebay if you do this. Also, with scripts, you'd also better remove multi and raical jammers, and only have one module which works against all sensor types.
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:49:00 - [112] Originally by: Tais Edited by: Tais on 17/12/2008 12:21:47 Originally by: TimMc Honestly, ECM is a very frustrating form of electronic warfare because you cannot do much in battle. But what would you replace it with? For a start remove falcons ECM Optimal range and give him Missile damage bonus. As all Force recons have. + There was idea of scripted ECM. This would solve most of it. Splitted to Jam STR and Optimal. I can live with 28 jammer STR at 30-40km. or 7 at 200 So Rook gets, for example, kenetic missile damage and perhaps explosion velocity bonus, and ECM cap usage and strength bonus. Falcon has the same, but replacing kenetic missile damage bonus with covert ops CPU. Then scripts are added. A 100% bonus to strength takes away 50% optimal, and 100% bonus to optimal takes away 50% strength. Both scripts double cap usage.
Soi Mala	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:55:00 - [113] Originally by: Kwa Kaine The predominant whine for the nano nerf was that the only way to counter nano was with more nano. That wasn't it at all. There were plenty of counters to nanos, but thats a different thread. (no longer directed at Kwa) ECM is fine, annoying, but fine. It does a valuable job on the battlefield and falcons themselves are not omnipitent. You whine that only falcons can counter other falcons - not true... Long range setup with ecm? Got a covert ops warp in on him? Damps on him? Even if falcons are a new mandatory thing for a gang, what are you whining about? i don't here any "waaaaaaaahhhh, every gang i fly in HAS to bring a tackler! thats a waste of good dps!" Falcons are so easy to scare off the field its unbelievable. He can't jam you all, and if he can, it means you have a gang of 3-4. Why oh why didn't you bring a force multiplier in such a small gang? Thats the very reason they're in game for. Stop crying just coz they detract from your idea that everyone should just set orbit to 3km, point web and club each other to death, leaving nothing but skills as the deciding factor. Its an inherent problem with Time based skilling - the people who spend more time seem to expect to become untouchable and able to kill stuff in one hit. Well eve isn't that way, never was and never will be. Its a tactical game. A game where thought, anticipation, and piloting skill play a much bigger part than the length of time you've been playing, and ifor one am thankfull for that.
Jack Gilligan Dragon's Rage KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.17 12:55:00 - [114] Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 17/12/2008 12:57:15 You do realize there are mods that you can fit that will boost your sensor strength, right? Plus it's not hard at all to kill ECM ships. They can't fit any kind of tank at all, and if they get primaried they go BOOM! in one alpha strike easily. Ironically in a gang I think the best anti-Falcon ship is another Caldari ship... The long range Eagle. Use T2 250mm's and Spike, dead Falcon. No other HAC can match it's range. Stick a handful of Eagles in your fleet and task them as a dedicated anti-Ewar squad. --- My opinions are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my corp or alliance.
Tais Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.17 13:06:00 - [115] Originally by: Tippia Irrelevant, since the FRs and CRs have the same EWar bonuses ù you should know this. Oh sorry, mistyped, they all have, but i see them inferior comparing to Falcon. About 4-5 times inferior. Quote: And now compare primary EW base optimal. Also irrelevant. Your argument was that the Falcon was the only one with a range bonus. You should know this too. Just like you should know the max range of drones. In fact, there are quite a few things about this that you don't seem to know about. Did i mentioned something about drone boats with bonuses?? If you play in EFT, yes all @5 char have 60km. My chars are not all@5 and they have 57km. Base ranege - 20km Scout drone operatiion - +25km (5km per level) EW drone operation - +12km at lvl4 (3km per level) And whis is 57km. And yes. +3km from EW drone op will be 60. Wanna tell me more about things i don't know or understand ??
Tippia Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.12.17 13:12:00 - [116] Originally by: Tais Did i mentioned something about drone boats with bonuses?? If you play in EFT, yes all @5 char have 60km. My chars are not all@5 and they have 57km. That's all nice and dandy, but that's not what you said, now is it? You said that "drones attack within 57 at max skills" which is entirely incorrect. With max skills, it's 60km — 85 in some drone boats — and since you mentioned max skills, the done boat bonus becomes relevant since it, too, is skill-dependent. No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
Tais Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.17 13:15:00 - [117] Originally by: Tippia That's all nice and dandy, but that's not what you said, now is it? You said that "drones attack within 57 at max skills" which is entirely incorrect. With max skills, it's 60km ù 85 in some drone boats ù and since you mentioned max skills, the done boat bonus becomes relevant since it, too, is skill-dependent. But still does it really matters 57 or 60 or 80 then your target sitts @ 200 ??
Tippia Caldari Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.12.17 13:17:00 - [118] Originally by: Tais But still does it really matters 57 or 60 or 80 then your target sitts @ 200 ?? It matters because it casts some doubt over how well you've managed to calculate your other numbers… No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.17 13:20:00 - [119] Originally by: Tais But still does it really matters 57 or 60 or 80 then your target sitts @ 200 ?? I tend to get in a lot of gang fights and if we are attacking a set position or if problem ships like a falcon warp in at range we reposition the engagement. Jumping into a gate camp and then complaining that ppl are smart enough to sit outside you max range is kinda dumb tbh, be prepared, expect ewar to be a issue and act accordingly.
Tais Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.17 13:25:00 - [120] It takes 2 minutes even less to to set snipers \ falcons at sniping point. Even without fast intys.

maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.17 13:34:00 - [121] Originally by: Tais It takes 2 minutes even less to to set snipers \ falcons at sniping point. Even without fast intys. So if you dictate where the battle takes place they either lose the use of all falcons/snipers for 2 mins as he sets up or he tries to fight in close and gets melted in seconds.
Tais Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.17 13:42:00 - [122] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Tais It takes 2 minutes even less to to set snipers \ falcons at sniping point. Even without fast intys. So if you dictate where the battle takes place they either lose the use of all falcons/snipers for 2 mins as he sets up or he tries to fight in close and gets melted in seconds. Mostly yes. And most of fleet battle are long range. But it's quite hard to force a fleet to go in a point you want them to be.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.	Posted - 2008.12.17 14:06:00 - [123] Originally by: Tais Edited by: Tais on 17/12/2008 12:21:47 Originally by: TimMc Honestly, ECM is a very frustrating form of electronic warfare because you cannot do much in battle. But what would you replace it with? For a start remove falcons ECM Optimal range and give him Missile damage bonus. As all Force recons have. And an extra missile point, and better speed, and a drone bay, like the other Force recons have. Oh and a nifty secondary EW bonus too. Don't forget that. You know, those extremely powerful abilities that give the other Recons a reason to engage at closer range.
Tais Gallente	Posted - 2008.12.17 14:38:00 - [124] Originally by: Malcanis And an extra missile point Yes Quote: and better speed, No Falcon is abit slower, but more agile Quote: and a drone bay, like the other Force recons have. Maybe Quote: Oh and a nifty secondary EW bonus too. Don't forget that. You know, those extremely powerful abilities that give the other Recons a reason to engage at closer range. No. Powerfull ECM is good enough for a mid-range combat.null
Unforgivin Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.17 14:46:00 - [125] Maybe people should start using remote eccm and have a dedicated anti falcon ship in there gangs. For me i wish we could place ECCM projectors in the high slot :) like with remote reps, but then again jamming from over 200k is a bit harsh. I fly falcon so i dont give a toss either way.
shamai	Posted - 2008.12.17 15:04:00 - [126] Originally by: KingBobs Dawn question:wich module can -disrupt all your turrets to 100% -defend all your missiles -disrupt your remote repair -makes free of warp scrambles and disruptors -makes free of stasis webb -disable attack-orders for drones -disable the EW from your target -more then one can be used at one target without an drawback -all this in an save range of 100km and more out side from the battle ? Right the ECM-****-off module Question which module? -is not 100% effective -is fitted to paperthin ships -can be countered with a small amount of intelligence
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2008.12.17 15:54:00 - [127] Originally by: shamai Originally by: KingBobs Dawn question:wich module can -disrupt all your turrets to 100% -defend all your missiles -disrupt your remote repair -makes free of warp scrambles and disruptors -makes free of stasis webb -disable attack-orders for drones -disable the EW from your target -more then one can be used at one target without an drawback -all this in an save range of 100km and more out side from the battle ? Right the ECM-****-off module Question which module? -is not 100% effective -is fitted to paperthin ships -can be countered with a small amount of intelligence maybe an weapon disruptor ?
Master Akira Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.12.17 16:25:00 - [128] Originally by: Haakelen Originally by: PeachesAndCream Have you tried not sucking? That usually fixes it.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.17 16:32:00 - [129] Originally by: KingBobs Dawn -disrupt all your turrets to 100% Disrupting turrets to ineffectiveness is no different to breaking a lock with ecm, both make turrets worthless. Originally by: KingBobs Dawn -defend all your missiles FOF. Originally by: KingBobs Dawn -disrupt your remote repair RR drones. Originally by: KingBobs Dawn -makes free of warp scrambles and disruptors bubbles. Originally by: KingBobs Dawn -makes free of stasis webb web drones Originally by: KingBobs Dawn -disable attack-orders for drones Wrong, your assigned drones will continue to attack the target you set them on, they also auto aggro. Originally by: KingBobs Dawn -disable the EW from your target ew drones.
shamai	Posted - 2008.12.17 16:35:00 - [130] Originally by: DMF KingBob Originally by: shamai Originally by: KingBobs Dawn question:wich module can -disrupt all your turrets to 100% -defend all your missiles -disrupt your remote repair -makes free of warp scrambles and disruptors -makes free of stasis webb -disable attack-orders for drones -disable the EW from your target -more then one can be used at one target without an drawback -all this in an save range of 100km and more out side from the battle ? Right the ECM-****-off module Question which module? -is not 100% effective -is fitted to paperthin ships -can be countered with a small amount of intelligence maybe an weapon disruptor ? Eek, better nerf them as well, or infact any module that I dont use that prevents me using mine...thats about what this post boils down to.

SiJira	Posted - 2008.12.17 16:57:00 - [131] right because someone with 2 million sp and another person with 5 million sp killed your 50 million sp character with ships worth 10 times less you have to face it that you just arent very good at this game Trashed sig, Shark was here
Glach Duwat	Posted - 2008.12.17 17:07:00 - [132] ECM is a good thing for the Game. It allows smaller Gangs to engage larger ones. Up to a certain scale. In a game were often times Numbers is everything, it's refreshing to have an alternative. On the other hand, it is terrifyingly effective. Being able to jam from Sniper battleship range is just absurd. I am not sure how to balance if, if it's scripts or what. Maybe just making their cycle time obscenely long would help. So that they can't 'permanently' jam you. It's tough, because I like it when ECM is on my side, and hate it when it's not. But then Again, I am Matari and we have **** for sensor strength. Not sure how to fix it, but what I will say is, ECM pilots are the biggest sissies in the game. If you even look sideways at them for a moment they start to turn tail and flee. The easiest way to nullify a falcon is to get drones on him at all cost. I don't care if that means bringing an drone boat built for range, or an Ishkur with an MWD. Blackbirds and Falcons are weak ships. So if you touch them they book it the hell away.
Cassius Longinus Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2008.12.17 19:37:00 - [133] Falcon is amazingly effective if you are fighting in your own bookmarked space. Still, it's all Caldari have for effective small-gang PVP just now. Regardless of whether the Falcons jamming strength bonus gets reduced, I would like to see other races recons slightly boosted.
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2008.12.19 12:10:00 - [134] Originally by: Cassius Longinus Falcon is amazingly effective if you are fighting in your own bookmarked space. Still, it's all Caldari have for effective small-gang PVP just now. Regardless of whether the Falcons jamming strength bonus gets reduced, I would like to see other races recons slightly boosted. sennsless becouse the other races have no player-jammers
Zhula Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.12.19 13:02:00 - [135] Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 19/12/2008 13:02:44 Originally by: Cassius Longinus Falcon is amazingly effective if you are fighting in your own bookmarked space. Still, it's all Caldari have for effective small-gang PVP just now. Thats true, bookmarks mean you can choose terms of fight. If people fights on their terms and somebody decide to take up the glove..well he deserves to die. Originally by: DMF KingBob sennsless becouse the other races have no player-jammers So you propose same EW for all races ?? It sounds well in terms of uniformity and boredom.
Darwin's Market	Posted - 2008.12.19 13:32:00 - [136] I used to have a Falcon alt and life was great, but I got rid of him because I knew it was wrong. Stop the madness. ECM jam range should be less than 40km.
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.12.19 16:08:00 - [137] Originally by: DMF KingBob it sucks to lose every fight through **ing ecm its comming from 100 km out side of the battle and makes my 2 year close to 50 mil sp char 100% senseless every time it is able in this ing game(where i pay time and money for) to make an fight in low sec without being perma jammed by an **ing alt char or so ????? Before screaming like a shcool girl about how u got ganked, at leas tbe constructive. CCP cant just remove ECM, that means caldari have no recon ewar lol. Instead suggest a different ewar to use instead of ecm, damn id be keen to try it (ecm gets old fast). EVE history t2 precisions
SSgt Sniper Gallente MAIDS	Posted - 2008.12.19 16:48:00 - [138] Originally by: DMF KingBob Pyramid quoting is removed.Applebabe and when the cycle ends/begins the next..... edit Then they do not disable attack orders they just stop you from making new ones during the jam cycle. LOL u talk bull** **ed poaster is ****ed. Drones will continue to auto aggro anything attacking you WITHIN YOUR DRONE CONTROL RANGE while you are jammed. True story. ------- CEO of Maids. No I didn't pick the name. I've grown rather fond of it though.Poor PR in progress!
Tarron Sarek Gallente Biotronics Inc. Alternative Realities	Posted - 2008.12.19 17:01:00 - [139] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 19/12/2008 17:01:47 No need to remove ECM. It just needs to be made more work intensive, or dangerous, so you can't easily operate an ECM ship on a second account while PvP'ing on the first. Using Falcon-alts is just too easy at the moment. ___________________________________ Balance is power, ~~guard~~ hide it well "Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam"
fllow	Posted - 2008.12.19 19:03:00 - [140] my god. stop moaning and bring a god damn cerb to the fight that has a falcon in. if you dont have a pilot that can fly a cerb then your corp is doing it wrong.

VoiceInTheDesert Gallente Diplomatic Disruption	Posted - 2008.12.19 19:07:00 - [141] I hate falcons and want them nerfed to be in line with other recons. But taking out ecm would be stupid. I hope this is a troll.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2008.12.19 19:30:00 - [142] This whole chain of arguments and counter arguments remind me terribly of the nanonerf 'discussions'. In the end ludicrous speed got the nerfbat. It's only a matter of time. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Drogher Forerunner	Posted - 2008.12.19 20:06:00 - [143] I find it funny that the falcon is just better than the rook. At least i have never seen a rook being used over a falcon, so maybe something there could be changed. Get rid of ECM? that is a stupid idea for about 100 reasons. Defence against ECM? well ECCM is very effective against it but you do have to make a sacrifice to use it. But if you know you are going to fight ECM then its not a sacrifice. I would like to see another kind of defence against ecm, i dont know what or how they could do it but it would be nice as it does nullify everything a ship can do with regards to locking a target. However ECCM works very very well and odds are if you are on your own in a fight and you are getting jammed, then thats probably because you are fighting more than one person (one of them in a falcon), in which case why shouldnt the larger group have the advantage. ECCM can make that other person almost usless. In fact a well kitted ship with enough ECCM can make 10 falcons almost usless.
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2008.12.19 21:15:00 - [144] Originally by: Drogher Forerunner In fact a well kitted ship with enough ECCM can make 10 falcons almost usless. Could you please post such a setup?
Drogher Forerunner	Posted - 2008.12.20 02:44:00 - [145] Originally by: Akiba Penrose Originally by: Drogher Forerunner In fact a well kitted ship with enough ECCM can make 10 falcons almost usless. Could you please post such a setup? Well having one or two eccms on board make a huge difference. A Guardian with 2 eccms gives a max skilled falcon pilot witha T2 racial jammer (not thinking of other modules at the moment) a 1 in 7 chance of landing a jam, even wasp ecm drones would have something like a 1 in 34 chance of landing a jam. so there could be 10 falcons trying to jam you but their chance is still a 1 in 7 chance in jamming you. They would have to be very lucky to permer jam you. With a bit of brain power and tactics, its not hard to build ships to counter jamming. Or at least on a 1 vs 2 basis, counter the jamming enough to try and kill the falcon or the other guy. With projected ECCM (if you have friends) you can really counter jamming very well. If you want to build an uber ship that is immune to jamming, then you cant. But you can hold off jamming pretty well on your own to try and get a job done. But to counter ecm you will have to sacrifice a slot to do it. The part i dont like is that a tracking computer can help counter a tracking disrupter, but if it is not countering anything it boosts your tracking to above normal. Which makes the slot useful if there is tracking disruption. The same goes for a Sensor booster. But the ECCM will counter against ECM by reducing its chance to land on you. But if there is not ECM around, it becomes a wasted slot. I suppose the upside of the module is that it doesnt use scripts, but that is not a big enough bonus.
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2008.12.20 05:43:00 - [146] There are two reasons we are having this discussion now. 1: Damps got nerfed HARD!! Without even looking at the bonuses on the respective ships who are using them. 2: Falcon's ECM power got boosted to to same as the rooks, to follow the design from the other races recons. Sort these 2 out first before you all go ragequit, slit wrist whatever...
Azrael Dinn 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2008.12.20 09:31:00 - [147] Use the backups. This works fine while I hate it also when someone jams me and I loose a ship but when I have backups on and make a kill it's so worth it - Azrael -
Zhula Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.12.20 10:36:00 - [148] Originally by: Drogher Forerunner But if there is not ECM around, it becomes a wasted slot. If there is no explosive dmg around, explosive hardener becomes a wasted slot.
4THELULZ	Posted - 2008.12.20 11:09:00 - [149] Originally by: DMF KingBob it sucks to lose every fight through **ing ecm its comming from 100 km out side of the battle and makes my 2 year close to 50 mil sp char 100% senseless every time it is able in this ing game(where i pay time and money for) to make an fight in low sec without being perma jammed by an **ing alt char or so ????? Almost unreadable - check Lost several IQ points TRYING to read it - check Screaming for removal of X thing that killed him - check Offering no constructive solution - check Offering no constructive ANYTHING - check "I have X skill points" e-peen waving - check RAGEQUIT - missing, for now. Conclusions: If this isn't a troll, my already crushed hope in humanity takes another beating.
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2008.12.20 12:21:00 - [150] last night the same chase the main with an hyperion and the alt with an falcon at 100km i fitted an eccm and heated it but it was sennsless the hyperion escaped the ecm of the falcon turned all my offensive modules instandly it to idle my turrets stopped with firing (that better then alls neutralizer and turret disruptor can do!!!!) and my warp disruptor and webber turned off question:for what does the other ew exist when an ecm can do it all at once at the same time with more range then a neut on an curse/pilgrim or an webber from an huginn or rapier or an warp disruptor(t2) from an arazu??? its simple time to accept the fact that ecm with 20sec/cycle is overpowered

mythpilot	Posted - 2008.12.20 16:00:00 - [151] Originally by: KingBobs Dawn question:wich module can -disrupt all your turrets to 100% -defend all your missiles -disrupt your remote repair -makes free of warp scrambles and disruptors -makes free of stasis webb -disable attack-orders for drones -disable the EW from your target -more then one can be used at one target without an drawback -all this in an save range of 100km and more out side from the battle ? -And kill your cap in 3 seconds?(for the ECM) Right the ECM-****-off module I fixed the last line for you besides Nano is more over powered then this those ecm ships have no DPS so they can't do solo crap. so cut the crap. if people yell at me for Nano I should yell back when I got an invicable plan. and dumbo had ears
mythpilot	Posted - 2008.12.20 16:11:00 - [152] hint put a falcon on a falcon...(jamming vs jamming equals you being able to shoot)
Reggie Stoneloader Party Crashers INC. Liberty.	Posted - 2008.12.21 07:42:00 - [153] Edited by: Reggie Stoneloader on 21/12/2008 07:42:29 Originally by: DMF KingBob last night the same chase the main with an hyperion and the alt with an falcon at 100km i fitted an eccm and heated it but it was sennsless the hyperion escaped the ecm of the falcon turned all my offensive modules instandly it to idle my turrets stopped with firing (that better then alls neutralizer and turret disruptor can do!!!!) and my warp disruptor and webber turned off question:for what does the other ew exist when an ecm can do it all at once at the same time with more range then a neut on an curse/pilgrim or an webber from an huginn or rapier or an warp disruptor(t2) from an arazu??? its simple time to accept the fact that ecm with 20sec/cycle is overpowered Where is this guy? Tell us. We'll kill him, then send you a link to the fraps. You'll learn a great deal. Crusades: Security Status
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.12.21 07:51:00 - [154] bomber with ECCM fitted and missiles skills maxed... = falcon runs away Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2008.12.21 10:15:00 - [155] Originally by: DMF KingBob last night the same chase the main with an hyperion and the alt with an falcon at 100km i fitted an eccm and heated it but it was sennsless the hyperion escaped the ecm of the falcon turned all my offensive modules instandly it to idle my turrets stopped with firing (that better then alls neutralizer and turret disruptor can do!!!!) and my warp disruptor and webber turned off question:for what does the other ew exist when an ecm can do it all at once at the same time with more range then a neut on an curse/pilgrim or an webber from an huginn or rapier or an warp disruptor(t2) from an arazu??? its simple time to accept the fact that ecm with 20sec/cycle is overpowered Let me get this straight. You made the Hyperion run, but that was only possible after the Falcon jammed you. So what actually happend? You have had to do some sort of damage to the hyperion to make it run when the falcon jammed you. Which means the falcon failed jamming you multiple times. And if you expect one single ECCM to overcome jamming 100%, then I would like to get a hardener that will reduce all incomming damage by 100%. Btw, you are a terrible troll.
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:11:00 - [156] Originally by: TZeer Originally by: DMF KingBob last night the same chase the main with an hyperion and the alt with an falcon at 100km i fitted an eccm and heated it but it was sennsless the hyperion escaped the ecm of the falcon turned all my offensive modules instandly it to idle my turrets stopped with firing (that better then alls neutralizer and turret disruptor can do!!!!) and my warp disruptor and webber turned off question:for what does the other ew exist when an ecm can do it all at once at the same time with more range then a neut on an curse/pilgrim or an webber from an huginn or rapier or an warp disruptor(t2) from an arazu??? its simple time to accept the fact that ecm with 20sec/cycle is overpowered Let me get this straight. You made the Hyperion run, but that was only possible after the Falcon jammed you. So what actually happend? You have had to do some sort of damage to the hyperion to make it run when the falcon jammed you. Which means the falcon failed jamming you multiple times. And if you expect one single ECCM to overcome jamming 100%, then I would like to get a hardener that will reduce all incomming damage by 100%. Btw, you are a terrible troll. i got an blackbird in my fleet on the other side of the battle so the hype was jammed too and yes the jamm of the falcon failed some times(never seen this before,maybe something wrong with the skills or so) the battle was a complete fail through ecm becouse ecm pwns all the other ew like warp jammers where is the sense of different tactics when only one is the best?
Drogher Forerunner	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:35:00 - [157] Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks Originally by: Drogher Forerunner But if there is not ECM around, it becomes a wasted slot. If there is no explosive dmg around, explosive hardener becomes a wasted slot. True. Good point. I wonder if ECM should have a much shorter optimal range and a bigger falloff. So if they want to jam as well as they do now they have to take more of a risk in being closer. Originally by: TZeer 2: Falcon's ECM power got boosted to to same as the rooks, to follow the design from the other races recons. Sort these 2 out first before you all go ragequit, slit wrist whatever... True this needs to be sorted out. Maybe reduce the jamming range of the falcon by alot.
DMF KingBob	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:42:00 - [158] Originally by: Drogher Forerunner Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks Originally by: Drogher Forerunner But if there is not ECM around, it becomes a wasted slot. If there is no explosive dmg around, explosive hardener becomes a wasted slot. True. Good point. I wonder if ECM should have a much shorter optimal range and a bigger falloff. So if they want to jam as well as they do now they have to take more of a risk in being closer. Originally by: TZeer 2: Falcon's ECM power got boosted to to same as the rooks, to follow the design from the other races recons. Sort these 2 out first before you all go ragequit, slit wrist whatever... True this needs to be sorted out. Maybe reduce the jamming range of the falcon by alot. the range is always to much or what whould say the players to 100km webbs disruptors or neutralizers?? an dont forget Neutralizer needs cap booster to work effective after some time
Drogher Forerunner	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:54:00 - [159] Edited by: Drogher Forerunner on 21/12/2008 12:56:06 Originally by: DMF KingBob Originally by: Drogher Forerunner Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks Originally by: Drogher Forerunner But if there is not ECM around, it becomes a wasted slot. If there is no explosive dmg around, explosive hardener becomes a wasted slot. True. Good point. I wonder if ECM should have a much shorter optimal range and a bigger falloff. So if they want to jam as well as they do now they have to take more of a risk in being closer. Originally by: TZeer 2: Falcon's ECM power got boosted to to same as the rooks, to follow the design from the other races recons. Sort these 2 out first before you all go ragequit, slit wrist whatever... True this needs to be sorted out. Maybe reduce the jamming range of the falcon by alot. the range is always to much or what whould say the players to 100km webbs disruptors or neutralizers?? an dont forget Neutralizer needs cap booster to work effective after some time I dunno, a neut doesnt need cap boosters if balanced with noz. But i see your point. I do think ECM should still out range noz and neuts. The ships that use them are paper thin so if you get to fire at them they either have to run or die. I wouldnt mind seeing the rook being used at the ranges that they can be used as now and the falcons having their range reduced to about 80km at most (maybe because of the cloak or something). They have the bonus of staying hidden on the battlefield until a perfect moment or warped into the middle of a battlefield unseen. That they should be able to do it and be effective at 120km+ is unbalanced. I think damps would be more useful again then because they would have a chance at damping the falcons and long range ships(that are not snipers) have a chance at doing something about them). Falcons would still have tonnes of tactics they can use to be effective at those ranges and rooks would fall into the roll of long range jamming and therefore actually have a point again.
Dhejay Centrix Caldari The Wailing Doom	Posted - 2008.12.21 12:57:00 - [160] Originally by: DMF KingBob i got an blackbird in my fleet on the other side of the battle so the hype was jammed too and yes the jamm of the falcon failed some times(never seen this before,maybe something wrong with the skills or so) the battle was a complete fail through ecm becouse ecm pwns all the other ew like warp jammers where is the sense of different tactics when only one is the best? Why was your blackbird not jamming the falcon since that was clearly the biggest problem? Why was your ewar pilot in a blackbird instead of a falcon? What you mean to say is "OMG everyone uses ECM on me and I don't have enough of the right ewar in my fleet to counter it so instead of fixing it using effective tactics I decided to whine about it"

Grumber1 Caldari Bambooule	Posted - 2008.12.21 13:52:00 - [161] I totally agree with you, get ecm out of the game, it destroys the whole pvp
ShadowDraqon The Quantum Company	Posted - 2008.12.21 13:58:00 - [162] How about this: CCP aren't going to remove a whole ship class and market group from the game, so how about we stop whining over nothing? ~ THIS IS A ~ ~ ~ SIGNATURE! ~ ~ Put the MM in the MMO!
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.12.21 15:39:00 - [163] Originally by: ShadowDraqon How about this: CCP aren't going to remove a whole ship class and market group from the game, so how about we stop whining over nothing? OP is a nub, asked him what a constructive solution might be and it was ignored. You lost a ship when jammed GET OVER IT. Oh and that situation where the falcon misses jams every now and then is actually the norm, your either lyeing about being perma-jammed every other fight or ur just incredibly unlucky (probably the first). EVE history t2 precisions
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2008.12.23 11:21:00 - [164] ECM is the condom of pvp, it should be removed or changed completely.
Drogher Forerunner	Posted - 2008.12.23 12:07:00 - [165] Edited by: Drogher Forerunner on 23/12/2008 12:12:49 Originally by: Akiba Penrose ECM is the condom of pvp, it should be removed or changed completely. You see its people like this with arguments like this that make this thread pointless. Its a whine because somebody got jammed or permerjammed because a falcon was lucky (and it would have to actually be Lucky to permerjam). Or who could have claimed permerjammed coz he died within the 20secs of jam cycle, in which case he never stood a chance coz he was out numbered or in a Really pants ship (im begining to think the latter is probably the case in most of crying about ecm stoll my dolly arguments). The person seems unable to equip basic modules (which are not chance based in their opperation) to counter the totally chance base modules of the ecm ship. Is also unable to find out how to fight them or what to do about them by posting ingame chat or by posting on the tactics forums. the player has instead posted the bright idea of removing something from the game or that it should be changed, despite the many replies in the thread on how to get around the ecm or actually offer solutions on how it might be changed or altered. The thing is ECM was not the only thing used that got them killed. It was also warpjammers or disrupters or webs throwing in its two sense to keep you from getting away, because there was no way that falcon was fighting you on its own from 100km. If you replace ECM in that mixture with damps, they can make your ship just as pointless and you cant getaway, also that will permer damp you were ECM is only chance based so it means you will get a chance to do something about it or about something else on the field were as the damps never give you a window of oppertunity to counter it - same for noz/neuts as well. 100km falcon or 40km arazu doesnt matter if there is a point of scram on you and a web. If someone was damped and made just as helpless and got owned there would probably be a post saying to get rid of that too.
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2008.12.23 12:21:00 - [166] Edited by: Akiba Penrose on 23/12/2008 12:21:47 Originally by: Drogher Forerunner You see its people like this with arguments like this that make this thread pointless. You see discussing with people that dont have a clue what they are talking about is also pointless. Hence i rather make a simple statement showing my opinion on the matter.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.23 12:32:00 - [167] Like most ships that can operate at sniper range falcons gain the immunity to certain fits, couple that with the fact that getting jammed is frustrating = LOTS OF EMO POSTS ON THE FORUMS. But it does not make them overpowered.
Drogher Forerunner	Posted - 2008.12.23 12:32:00 - [168] Originally by: Akiba Penrose Edited by: Akiba Penrose on 23/12/2008 12:21:47 Originally by: Drogher Forerunner You see its people like this with arguments like this that make this thread pointless. You see discussing with people that dont have a clue what they are talking about is also pointless. Hence i rather make a simple statement showing my opinion on the matter. The fact ECM is such an issue for you or more accurately for people with arguments like the one above, to the point that you have to suggest a simple oppinion on the matter, kind of proves my point.
Drogher Forerunner	Posted - 2008.12.23 12:35:00 - [169] Originally by: maralt Like most ships that can operate at sniper range falcons gain the immunity to certain fits, couple that with the fact that getting jammed is frustrating = LOTS OF EMO POSTS ON THE FORUMS. But it does not make them overpowered. Would agree with that, and it is definitely frustrating getting jammed. But it does also feel really good when they are trying to jam your ship and nothing happens, and you just carry on like their not even there.
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2008.12.23 12:59:00 - [170] Originally by: Drogher Forerunner The fact ECM is such an issue for you or more accurately for people with arguments like the - Originally by: Akiba Penrose ECM is the condom of pvp, it should be removed or changed completely. -to the point that you have to suggest a simple oppinion on the matter, kind of proves my point. I was making a simple statement, not suggesting a simple opinion. The fact that ECM is such an issue for me i becuase i pvp. Dont see how that is proving whatever point you where tryin to make.

shamai	Posted - 2008.12.23 15:03:00 - [171] Originally by: Akiba Penrose Edited by: Akiba Penrose on 23/12/2008 13:55:16 Originally by: Drogher Forerunner The fact ECM is such an issue for you or more accurately for people with arguments like the - Originally by: Akiba Penrose ECM is the condom of pvp, it should be removed or changed completely. -to the point that you have to suggest a simple oppinion on the matter, kind of proves my point. I was making a simple statement, not suggesting a simple opinion. The fact that ECM is such an issue for me is becuase i pvp. Dont see how that is proving whatever point you where tryin to make. ECM is a problem for everyone as most people forget to tank against it, and yes, that IS possible. If you think about it in terms of tank it helps. After all, most peopel fit a tank against damage of at least some description...why would you leave your ships sensor systems naked as the day they are born?
Boma Airaken The Divine Comedy Celestial Imperative	Posted - 2008.12.23 15:05:00 - [172] Edited by: Boma Airaken on 23/12/2008 15:06:37 counterstrike -> (is that way)(oh yeah, same goes for the cloaking whiners)
Drogher Forerunner	Posted - 2008.12.23 16:12:00 - [173] Originally by: shamai Originally by: Akiba Penrose Edited by: Akiba Penrose on 23/12/2008 13:55:16 Originally by: Drogher Forerunner The fact ECM is such an issue for you or more accurately for people with arguments like the - Originally by: Akiba Penrose ECM is the condom of pvp, it should be removed or changed completely. -to the point that you have to suggest a simple oppinion on the matter, kind of proves my point. I was making a simple statement, not suggesting a simple opinion. Originally by: Akiba Penrose The fact that ECM is such an issue for me is becuase i pvp. Dont see how that is proving whatever point you where tryin to make. You PvP and ecm is that huge of a problem? do you pvp in the hopes that somebody doesnt bring ecm or something? If you dont compensate (or compensate badly) for a possibility that obviously happens often enough to vex you. Then you build bad ships, are bad at stratagey, arent the smartest pvper or are slow to learning how to adapt. Originally by: shamai ECM is a problem for everyone as most people forget to tank against it, and yes, that IS possible. If you think about it in terms of tank it helps. After all, most peopel fit a tank against damage of at least some description...why would you leave your ships sensor systems naked as the day they are born? All absoultely true
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.23 17:02:00 - [174] Pyramid Quotes are hard to read. A bit of the problem many have with ECM is, that countermeasures do not really work. A ship with high sensor strength and ECCM needs multiple ECCM to have a chance to resist a falcon. That is a fact. Other forms of EW could be at least partially resisted through skills. Tracking Disrupters decrease Optimal/Falloff or Tracking of the Turrets, but the Motion Prediction, Sharpshooter and Trajectory Analysis Skills make it at least a bit easier to still hit a target, even when a TD is used. Sensor Dampener have Signature Analysis or Long Range Targeting to help with targeting. In both cases the counter modules Tracking Computers/Enhancers and Sensor Boosters have also useful effects other then just resisting the effect of TD or RSD. The ECCM is only useful when you are at risk of being jammed and there are no skills that increase ECCM effectiveness or the Sensor Strength. One possible solution with ECM would be, to give them scripts that force ECM users to balance range against jamming scripts. Another option would be to introduce counter ECM skills. Example: - Sensor Recalibration,each leavel of skill decreases the time of being jammed by 10%.
shamai	Posted - 2008.12.23 17:27:00 - [175] Edited by: shamai on 23/12/2008 17:31:15 Edited by: shamai on 23/12/2008 17:27:59 Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Pyramid Quotes are hard to read. A bit of the problem many have with ECM is, that countermeasures do not really work. A ship with high sensor strength and ECCM needs multiple ECCM to have a chance to resist a falcon. That is a fact. Other forms of EW could be at least partially resisted through skills. Tracking Disrupters decrease Optimal/Falloff or Tracking of the Turrets, but the Motion Prediction, Sharpshooter and Trajectory Analysis Skills make it at least a bit easier to still hit a target, even when a TD is used. Sensor Dampener have Signature Analysis or Long Range Targeting to help with targeting. In both cases the counter modules Tracking Computers/Enhancers and Sensor Boosters have also useful effects other then just resisting the effect of TD or RSD. The ECCM is only useful when you are at risk of being jammed and there are no skills that increase ECCM effectiveness or the Sensor Strength. One possible solution with ECM would be, to give them scripts that force ECM users to balance range against jamming scripts. Another option would be to introduce counter ECM skills. Example: - Sensor Recalibration,each leavel of skill decreases the time of being jammed by 10%. Coutermeasures do work if you use more than one. If you still get jammed then the falcon/ECM pilot is either very lucky indeed or he is using most if not all of his jammers to shut you down...in which case your buddy should make short work of him. Again I refer to the tank analogy, if you fitted just 1 hardener, you would not seriously expect your tank to be more than moderate in nature would you? Personally my Falcon uses 2 sensor strength boosters, because I DO consider it that important that i dont get jammed ofen...and guess what, I dont. At the same time, I understand that my ship is paper thin, and that if my jam fails im basically dead. You dont see me littering the forum with nerf demands because I cant be arsed to defend myself against whatever weaponary someone cares to throw at me. edit : I cant spell
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.23 17:49:00 - [176] Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 23/12/2008 17:50:27 Sure the ship might be paper thin, but not that paper thin, that it can be easily blown up. Falcons can also use their ECM at a range that is impossible for any other type of EW to reach. Fitting multiple ECCM might work, but once falcon concentrates on you, you will still be jammed about 80% of the time. A single RSD from a falcons gangmate and you will not have time to lock a target before being jammed again. Also how do you want to kill a Falcon that is more then 150km away? A sniper BS or HAC can hit them at maximum range, but at the cost of using their Medslots for Sensor Boosters and Tracking Computers, with no room for multiple ECCM and without ECCM the Falcon will jam them without problem.
shamai	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:00:00 - [177] Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Sure the ship might be paper thin, but not that paper thin, that it can be easily blown up. Falcons can also use their ECM at a range that is impossible for any other type of EW to reach. Fitting multiple ECCM might work, but once falcon concentrates on you, you will still be jammed about 80% of the time. At a simple RSD from a falcons gangmate and you will not have time to lock a target before being jammed again. Also how do you want to kill a Falcon that is more then 150km away? A sniper BS or HAC can hit them at maximum range, but at the cost of using their Medslots for Sensor Boosters and Tracking Computers, with no room for multiple ECCM and without ECCM the Falcon will jam them without problem. So the Falcon is at his optimal range....props to him. You dont need tracking computers to hit out to the range, and you dont need more than 1 sensor booster either. Also note that 1 of the 2 ECCM you fit is a low slot item...oh and you can boost remotely if your having a really hard time. Rokhs and Apocs can hit out to what...200k+? 80% is a wild figure, I personally run with about 97 sensor strength and find im jammed <15% of the time, with remote support the sensor strength could be higher still and a jam even more unlikley. OFC there will be times when the falcon pilot is a jammy git and gets off a series of jams...then there will be times where it doesnt work at all. Fiddling with optimal range "might" (and thats a big might) need looking at, but everything else ive seen in this thread is basically "waa waa I DONT WANT to defend myself and demand that the item is nerfed". Frankly thats just not cricket. The sooner people start defending themselves, the less moans we will see.
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:06:00 - [178] Right now I can only say, that when I see a gang with a falcon arrive, I will be very careful and never engage alone, if I see multiple falcons approaching, I will stay the hell away. Call me a carebear if you want, but instead of PvP I will most likely play the dock and wait game.
Wannabehero Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:10:00 - [179] Edited by: Wannabehero on 23/12/2008 18:12:25 Yeah! Remove ECM, Think of the Children! -- Don't harsh my mellow
shamai	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:10:00 - [180] Originally by: Deviana Sevidon Right now I can only say, that when I see a gang with a falcon arrive, I will be very careful and never engage alone, if I see multiple falcons approaching, I will stay the hell away. Call me a carebear if you want, but instead of PvP I will most likely play the dock and wait game. If your on your own, thats very wise If your in a gang and you make that choice, your not defending yourself against ECM If your in a gang and you make that choice and you are defending against ECM, you have no scroat but I wont call you a bear ;)

shamai	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:11:00 - [181] Originally by: Wannabehero Yeah! Remove ECM! Think of the Children! Those would be the "I dont understand ECCM mechanics" children?
Wannabehero Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:13:00 - [182] Originally by: shamai Originally by: Wannabehero Yeah! Remove ECM! Think of the Children! Those would be the "I dont understand ECCM mechanics" children? I thinks you gots it. -- Don't harsh my mellow
shamai	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:16:00 - [183] Originally by: Wannabehero Originally by: shamai Originally by: Wannabehero Yeah! Remove ECM! Think of the Children! Those would be the "I dont understand ECCM mechanics" children? I thinks you gots it. ;)
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:19:00 - [184] Originally by: Deviana Sevidon A bit of the problem many have with ECM is, that countermeasures do not really work. A ship with high sensor strength and ECCM needs multiple ECCM to have a chance to resist a falcon. That is a fact. This is very true. The main problem is that even if you fit counter to ECM, you will still lose if the other side has a falcon and the numbers are fairly even.
shamai	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:21:00 - [185] Originally by: Akiba Penrose Originally by: Deviana Sevidon A bit of the problem many have with ECM is, that countermeasures do not really work. A ship with high sensor strength and ECCM needs multiple ECCM to have a chance to resist a falcon. That is a fact. This is very true. The main problem is that even if you fit counter to ECM, you will still lose if the other side has a falcon and the numbers are fairly even. Sorry thats NOT true, trying fitting some sometime and testing it out
GTC seller72	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:23:00 - [186] Originally by: Akiba Penrose This is very true. The main problem is that even if you fit counter to ECM, you will still lose if the other side has a falcon and the numbers are fairly even. So you have discovered that a versatile gang with ewar is better at pvp/gang engagments than a gang without it?. Gratz. Next lesson is about GIRLS...they aint just boys in skirts ya know!!!.
Wannabehero Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:32:00 - [187] Originally by: GTC seller72 Next lesson is about GIRLS...they aint just boys in skirts ya know!!!. Proof or STFU? -- Don't harsh my mellow
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:33:00 - [188] Originally by: shamai Sorry thats NOT true, trying fitting some sometime and testing it out oh iv done that. Iv had 2 x ECCM on my tempest several times and it does not make much of a differense.
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:43:00 - [189] Edited by: Akiba Penrose on 23/12/2008 18:43:27 Originally by: GTC seller72 So you have discovered that a versatile gang with ewar is better at pvp/gang engagments than a gang without it?. My point is that ECM counter doesent really work then,, does it? Originally by: GTC seller72 Next lesson is about GIRLS...they aint just boys in skirts ya know!!!. Wrong, next lesson is about growing a pair and try posting with your main.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:50:00 - [190] Originally by: Akiba Penrose My point is that ECM counter doesn't really work then,, does it? Only if you think a counter should giver you 100% immunity, and eccm give a crap ton more of a % boost than a armour hardener bud.

GTC seller72	Posted - 2008.12.23 18:52:00 - [191] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Akiba Penrose My point is that ECM counter doesn't really work then,, does it? Only if you think a counter should giver you 100% immunity, and eccm give a crap ton more of a % boost than a armour hardener bud. This PS: My main is banned.
shamai	Posted - 2008.12.23 19:11:00 - [192] Originally by: Akiba Penrose Originally by: shamai Sorry thats NOT true, trying fitting some sometime and testing it out oh iv done that. Iv had 2 x ECCM on my tempest several times and it does not make much of a differense. try turning them on next time, % chance to jam will be very much lower than without
Drogher Forerunner	Posted - 2008.12.23 21:53:00 - [193] If your 1 jammer had a 12% chance to jam something, adding more of the same jammers would not increase the chances of landing a jam, rather give you more attempts of trying to land within that 12% chance. eg. 1 jammer = 1 in 8 chance of landing a jam. (or rolling one dice) 10 jammers = 1 in 8 chance of landing a jam.(or rolling 10 dice each with a one in 8 chance of landing jam) Bottom line, jammers are not over powered (as said before). 1 ECCM helps alot 2 helps a hell of alot. Also jammers do not stack with each other but your eccm does stack making them a very powerful counter, reducing the chance of all jammer modules landing a jam. Your frig locks at 50km with sensorbooster with range scrpit and at 30km without it. So booster is giving you 20km range. Damp with range script knocks your 50km down to 28km. Your counter (the sensor booseter) is nullified and you still lose a couple of km range. Both sensor boosters and damps stack but the each damps, even with stacking, still gets through. Depending on your situation it might not matter or it might mean everything. Jammer with 9 strength And a x2 ECCM guardian (which i had to use a couple of times b4 once) so 68.3 sensor stregth. meant that a jammer with 9 strength had a 13% chance of landing. When using remote eccm the chance of landing was even less. When the falcon pilot is lucky then that is bad luck for you, but the odds are in your favor, so the falcon pilot really is relying on luck. And the longer he is alive the more roles of the dice he gets to try and jam you. If he permer jams you then he is frikin lucky if you have eccm onboard. But with an eccm on board the odds are always in your favor.
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2008.12.23 22:39:00 - [194] Originally by: Drogher Forerunner If your 1 jammer had a 12% chance to jam something, adding more of the same jammers would not increase the chances of landing a jam, rather give you more attempts of trying to land within that 12% chance. eg. 1 jammer = 1 in 8 chance of landing a jam. (or rolling one dice) 10 jammers = 1 in 8 chance of landing a jam.(or rolling 10 dice each with a one in 8 chance of landing jam) If 1 jammer has 12% chance, then 10 jammers have; (1-(1-0.12)^10)100%= 72.15% chance of successfully jamming the target.
shamai	Posted - 2008.12.23 23:12:00 - [195] Originally by: Akiba Penrose Originally by: Drogher Forerunner If your 1 jammer had a 12% chance to jam something, adding more of the same jammers would not increase the chances of landing a jam, rather give you more attempts of trying to land within that 12% chance. eg. 1 jammer = 1 in 8 chance of landing a jam. (or rolling one dice) 10 jammers = 1 in 8 chance of landing a jam.(or rolling 10 dice each with a one in 8 chance of landing jam) If 1 jammer has 12% chance, then 10 jammers have; (1-(1-0.12)^10)100%= 72.15% chance of successfully jamming the target. quite correct, but since nobdy can field 10 jammers its academic math. As stated before your looking at about 45% with 5 which is the realistic amount you will face. Given that thats less than even odds and that in the event of a failure the ship goes boom, the ratio seems perfectly fair
Myung Chul Gallente Talocan Technologies	Posted - 2008.12.24 00:03:00 - [196] um, dont go after scorps, blackbirds, and electro war frigs. Pick better targets!
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2008.12.24 13:14:00 - [197] Originally by: shamai quite correct, but since nobdy can field 10 jammers its academic math. Everything in this thread is just theory and academic math. In game Falcons jamm the **** out of everything.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.24 13:27:00 - [198] Originally by: Akiba Penrose In game Falcons jamm the **** out of everything. Stop posting for gods sake, emo rage at being jammed is no use in this thread.
Emporors Champian	Posted - 2008.12.24 13:37:00 - [199] let this post die the players who want ecm changed are outnumbered as most of the players try to help you find a way to deal with ecm. i think ecm is perdy strong but with an eccm ecm is very weak.
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2008.12.24 13:38:00 - [200] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Akiba Penrose In game Falcons jamm the **** out of everything. Stop posting for gods sake, emo rage at being jammed is no use in this thread. No emo rage here, just stating the sad fact. If you can discuss without insulting maybe you should take a break from the forums

maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.12.24 13:48:00 - [201] Edited by: maralt on 24/12/2008 13:49:12 Originally by: Akiba Penrose Originally by: maralt Originally by: Akiba Penrose In game Falcons jamm the **** out of everything. Stop posting for gods sake, emo rage at being jammed is no use in this thread. No emo rage here, just stating the sad fact. If you can discuss without insulting maybe you should take a break from the forums I am not the one using foul language and making stupid and obviously stupid and pointless claims that are utterly untrue?. It is you who needs a break and a chill pill pal.

CCP Fallout	Posted - 2008.12.24 14:32:00 - [202] this thread is just full of, well, meh, and is therefore being locked. please do not reopen the forum and... guys, lay off the trolling. Fallout Associate Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online



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