Originally by: Raniss

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SO we come to the conclusion BOTH torps and pulses are overpowered? O NOES!

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Originally by: lebrata

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Able to virtually match blasters from 0-5km(depending on transversal).

While matching and or out damaging blasters from 5-15km.

Vastly out damaging them from 15-30km

And having no competition from 30-60+km

I would say...YUP overpowered....

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Originally by: Artemis Rose

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Hmm.. for the sake of argument, lets compare Torps and Pulse.

At 15km, what does more damage?

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Originally by: Artemis Rose

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At 20-30km what does more damage?

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Originally by: Artemis Rose

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30km-45km what does more damage?

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Originally by: Murina

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Originally by: Artemis Rose

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Hmm.. for the sake of argument, lets compare Torps and Pulse.

At 15km, what does more damage?

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Pulse by far unless its a stationary barn door sized ship.

Originally by: Artemis Rose

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At 20-30km what does more damage?

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Pulse by far unless its a stationary barn door sized ship.

Originally by: Artemis Rose

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30km-45km what does more damage?

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Pulse by far unless its a stationary barn door sized ship.

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Originally by: Zeba

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Since all my combat alts are primarily spec'd in Amarr.......

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Originally by: Wideen

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yes, target painters don't exist, otherwise I'd be a different scenario ...

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Originally by: lebrata

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Originally by: Zeba

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Since all my combat alts are primarily spec'd in Amarr.......

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No need for further comment really.....

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Originally by: Wideen

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yes, target painters don't exist, otherwise I'd be a different scenario ...

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Originally by: Quixis

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*Waits for Gormdong and Lyria Faildancer to join*

*Gets popcorn*

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Originally by: Omarvelous

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BOOST RAILGUNZ

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Originally by: Omarvelous

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BOOST RAILGUNZ

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Originally by: Lindsay Logan

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T2 Pulse is powerful, but that basically all Amarr got...

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Originally by: Artemis Rose

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Hmm.. for the sake of argument, lets compare Torps and Pulse.

At 15km, what does more damage?
At 20-30km what does more damage?
30km-45km what does more damage?

Torps, all three.

Yup! Torps are over powered.

---

Originally by: lebrata

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Able to virtually match blasters from 0-5km(depending on transversal).

While matching and or out damaging blasters from 5-15km.

Vastly out damaging them from 15-30km

And having no competition from 30-60+km

I would say...YUP overpowered....

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Do you have any idea of how many target painters do you need over the target to inflict full torpedo damage in a battleship moving at 300 m/s?

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Originally by: Deschenus Maximus

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Don't nerf lasers. Boost blasters, ffs.

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Originally by: Horny girl1

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Originally by: lebrata

---

Able to virtually match blasters from 0-5km(depending on transversal).

While matching and or out damaging blasters from 5-15km.

Vastly out damaging them from 15-30km

And having no competition from 30-60+km

I would say...YUP overpowered....

---

Are u wow player ? Troll

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 02/01/2009 16:48:32

Originally by: Horny girl1

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Originally by: lebrata

---

Able to virtually match blasters from 0-5km(depending on transversal).

While matching and or out damaging blasters from 5-15km.

Vastly out damaging them from 15-30km

And having no competition from 30-60+km

I would say...YUP overpowered....

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Are u wow player ? Troll

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This.

Can't belive the mods are letting retrd posts like this pass unlocked.

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Originally by: Colonel Xaven

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Blasters are being discussed by CCP afaik.

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Can't belive the mods are letting retrd posts like this pass unlocked.

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Originally by: Omarvelous

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 02/01/2009 16:48:32

Originally by: Horny girl1

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Originally by: lebrata

---

Able to virtually match blasters from 0-5km(depending on transversal).

While matching and or out damaging blasters from 5-15km.

Vastly out damaging them from 15-30km

And having no competition from 30-60+km

I would say...YUP overpowered....

---

Are u wow player ? Troll

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This.

Can't belive the mods are letting retrd posts like this pass unlocked.

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I feel the same way about Falcon posts.

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Originally by: Deschenus Maximus

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Don't nerf lasers. Boost blasters, ffs.

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Originally by: ElCoCo

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Do you have any idea of how many target painters do you need over the target to inflict full torpedo damage in a battleship moving at 300 m/s?

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Oh right, those 300m/sec moving battleships. I see lots of them around!

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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This.

Can't belive the mods are letting retrd posts like this pass unlocked.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Man, if you don't you are either blind or forgot to activate the right column on your overview to check...

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Man, if you don't you are either blind or forgot to activate the right column on your overview to check...

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Originally by: ElCoCo

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Man, if you don't you are either blind or forgot to activate the right column on your overview to check...

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Oh yes, those ubiquitous BS's with afterburners in the myriad 1vs1 scenarios we all come across.

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Originally by: Letifer Deus

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Man, if you don't you are either blind or forgot to activate the right column on your overview to check...

---

You must be referring to AB BS, of which I see very, very few.

And on a side note (i.e. what this thread is actually about), I do not think pulse are particularly OP, I think the alternatives, blasters and ACs, simply aren't up to snuff.

---

Originally by: Artemis Rose

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Hmm.. for the sake of argument, lets compare Torps and Pulse.

At 15km, what does more damage?
At 20-30km what does more damage?
30km-45km what does more damage?

Torps, all three.

Yup! Torps are over powered.

---

Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Originally by: Letifer Deus

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Edited by: Letifer Deus on 02/01/2009 17:19:44

Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Man, if you don't you are either blind or forgot to activate the right column on your overview to check...

---

You must be referring to AB BS, of which I see very, very few.

And on a side note (i.e. what this thread is actually about), I do not think pulse are particularly OP, I think the alternatives, blasters and ACs, simply aren't up to snuff.

---

The concept of underpowered or overpowered is relative. Soemthing must be OP in relation to something else.

For example, Pulse Lasers are severely underpowered compared to the 1 shot kill weapon mounted on the polaris frigs. Fortunately those frigs are not controlled by players so that is not an issue.

On the other hand compared to: Blasters, ACs AND Torpedoes, lasers are overpowered. To balance this you need to either nerf lasers or boost all the other three.

I don't need even to argue my case for Balsters and ACs, they are so inferior that it is blatantly obvious.

Regarding torpedos and AB, well, lets see, against a painted Typhoon, moving without AB at 165 m/s, Torpedoes inflict around 75% of its damage btw. If it has AB equipped damage drops, STILL PAINTED, to about 15%. Tripple painted the same damage goes to 30%. To achieve 100% damage you need to web it and tripple paint it...

ABs are very useful for battleships, especially in low sec where the need to get out of bubbles does not exist, but even in 0.0, against no AB battleships, you will be hard pressed to inflict the torpedoes maximum potential damage.

Now against smaller targets torps don't stand a chance against lasers.

So, in short, pulse lasers are just superior in about everything compared to any other short range weapon system, which the rare exception of immobile painted large targets against torpedoes. If that is not overpowered I really don't know what is...

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Originally by: tropic89

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not to mention amarr do EM/therm damage, which is till the highest resist in the game.

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Originally by: Omarvelous

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Where are these fleets of AB fit BS in low sec?!

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Originally by: lebrata

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Can't belive the mods are letting retrd posts like this pass unlocked.

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Add content to the valid and accurate points or go away and troll elsewhere.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Originally by: ElCoCo

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Do you have any idea of how many target painters do you need over the target to inflict full torpedo damage in a battleship moving at 300 m/s?

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Oh right, those 300m/sec moving battleships. I see lots of them around!

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Man, if you don't you are either blind or forgot to activate the right column on your overview to check...

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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This.

Can't belive the mods are letting retrd posts like this pass unlocked.

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Actually what is really amazing is the non moderation of your trollish posts with absolute no content, Lyria, just like this one.

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Originally by: ElCoCo

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I smell FW caldari noob!

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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The concept of underpowered or overpowered is relative. Something must be OP or UP in relation to something else.

---

Quote:

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ABs are very useful for battleships, especially in low sec where the need to get out of bubbles does not exist, but even in 0.0, against no AB battleships, you will be hard pressed to inflict the torpedoes maximum potential damage.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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but even in 0.0, against no AB battleships, you will be hard pressed to inflict the torpedoes maximum potential damage.

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Originally by: Christari Zuborov

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Saying that a weapon system is overpowered without comparing the ships is kind of dumb.

Put lasers on your megathron if they're so good. Should be pretty easy to do giving that Gallente has the most accomodating grid/cpu.

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Originally by: Christari Zuborov

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Saying that a weapon system is overpowered without comparing the ships is kind of dumb.

Put lasers on your megathron if they're so good. Should be pretty easy to do giving that Gallente has the most accomodating grid/cpu.

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Originally by: Murina

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Edited by: Murina on 02/01/2009 18:29:32

Originally by: Christari Zuborov

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Saying that a weapon system is overpowered without comparing the ships is kind of dumb.

Put lasers on your megathron if they're so good. Should be pretty easy to do giving that Gallente has the most accomodating grid/cpu.

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Base pg stats....

Hype (largest gallente BS PG) = powergrid Output 15,750 MW

geddon (smallest amarr BS PG) = powergrid Output 16,500 MW

baddon = 21,000 MW more than a hyperion with even max skills.....

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Originally by: Aerin Cloudfayr

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compare the CPU before you start complaining about Powergrid cielings. Powergrid is not the tactical limit to a ships' fittings, it's CPU.

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Originally by: Murina

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Originally by: Aerin Cloudfayr

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compare the CPU before you start complaining about Powergrid cielings. Powergrid is not the tactical limit to a ships' fittings, it's CPU.

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Actually you're wrong its both, but the fact is that you cannot (as suggested by the noob) fit pulse onto a gallente ship and remain effective and that is a PG issue not cpu.

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Originally by: Murina

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Actually your wrong its both, but the fact is that you cannot (as suggested by the noob) fit pulse onto a gallente ship and remain effective and that is a PG issue not cpu.

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Originally by: Aerin Cloudfayr

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This is pointless. srsly. Megapulse has issues tracking really close - they're not made for it. Blasters, on the other hand are, especially when there are ship bonuses for their tracking. Deal with it; Fight how your weapons are designed to fight.

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Originally by: Aerin Cloudfayr

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Tracking/Optimal Range Disruption

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Originally by: Aerin Cloudfayr

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Get up close - (Keep transversal!)

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Originally by: Aerin Cloudfayr

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actually what I'm seeing there is the Megathron performing brilliantly where it;s supposed to perform, and the abaddon sucking at it, regardless of what crystal it uses. Go figure.

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Originally by: Murina

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Edited by: Murina on 02/01/2009 19:15:13

Originally by: Aerin Cloudfayr

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actually what I'm seeing there is the Megathron performing brilliantly where it;s supposed to perform, and the abaddon sucking at it, regardless of what crystal it uses. Go figure.

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You call pulse being effective from 50+km down to under 4km against a impossibly constant transversal scenario sucking?.


Here you go:

http://www.specsavers.co.uk/

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Originally by: Aerin Cloudfayr

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Originally by: Murina

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Edited by: Murina on 02/01/2009 19:15:13

Originally by: Aerin Cloudfayr

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actually what I'm seeing there is the Megathron performing brilliantly where it;s supposed to perform, and the abaddon sucking at it, regardless of what crystal it uses. Go figure.

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You call pulse being effective from 50+km down to under 4km against a impossibly constant transversal scenario sucking?.


Here you go:

http://www.specsavers.co.uk/

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let me throw you an afterburner, and the fact that you're out of web range, can dictate range because you're faster than the battleship and can


oh wait i've been harping on about this for a while already

Tracking Disruption - If you're serious about stopping range bonused T2 Scorch in it's tracks, you want to munt his tracking. It's already been reduced by 25%, hit it by another 50% and you won't even have to AB in that situation.

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Quote:

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The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.

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Originally by: Cpt Cosmic

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no one mentioned projectiles

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Originally by: Letifer Deus

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And when people say what I said, the "something else" they are relating to is a theoretical "balanced point." Are MPs overpowered compared to blaters? Yes. But this is because blasters are underpowered compared to their theoretical "balanced point," not because MPs are overpowered compared to theirs.

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Quote:

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ATM I do almost exclusively empire and low sec PvP and I don't remember the last BS I killed that had an AB fitted. BS still generally go MWD or nothing.

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Quote:

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If you have a TP and at least 1 of your gang mates has a web I bet your actual DPS is at least as close to your potential DPS as any other close ranged BS weapon platform.

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Originally by: Letifer Deus

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Originally by: Colonel Xaven

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Blasters are being discussed by CCP afaik.

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Really? What little bird told you this?

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Sorry but that does not make sense at all. MP are overpowered compared to blasters, because they outperform blasters in any reasonable scenario, not because blasters are outside some fictitious balanced point.

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Originally by: Colonel Xaven

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Zulupark in his Q&A post. Someone must have cried badly...

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Originally by: Letifer Deus

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Sorry but that does not make sense at all. MP are overpowered compared to blasters, because they outperform blasters in any reasonable scenario, not because blasters are outside some fictitious balanced point.

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No, it does make sense. Hit your head a few times and reread it.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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I suggest you follow your own advice before asking others to do it. I seem to be the one who will certainly most benefit from it, and even if you do not benefit at all from it, you still have nothing to lose.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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MP are overpowered compared to blasters, because they outperform blasters in any reasonable scenario,

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Originally by: Letifer Deus

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When did I say I did not understand anything you said? I understand exactly what you are saying and I am saying it is wrong. You, however, seem lost on my point which I believe is not that difficult of a concept to understand.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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People complaining about ***insert random weapon / ship here*** are simply refusing to use the advantages that are present in the ships they have which are many and varied compared to the ***insert race here*** alternative and refuse to use the systems designed to carry them through ***whatever***. That is their fault, not the ***any module***'s.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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stuff

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Originally by: DukeXL

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Pulse also take more capacitor to fire.

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Originally by: DukeXL

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Blasters have better tracking... they do considerable more dps in the 0-5km range actually...

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Originally by: DukeXL

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Pulse also take more capacitor to fire, and fittings to put on your ship.

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Quote:

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Blasters have better tracking... they do considerable more dps in the 0-5km range actually...

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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---

Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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The Geddon bonus makes for the most of it, add that to the fact that its capacitor is considerably bigger than the Mega's and it ends having less problem to keep its cap stable than the Mega. And lets not even start with the Apocalypse and its huge cap...

The only amarr battleship that has cap problems is the Abaddon, which considering its damage AND resists bonii is more than understandable.

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Quote:

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As I said only against smaller ships, which they will be hard pressed to approach.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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1. A battlecruiser that "keeps away" from a BS is a dead battlecruiser. Smaller ships always want to be closer to larger ships with a very very few exceptions. Well, that or they want to be warping away. There is no small gang battlecruiser or cruiser in the game that has more DPS than the Gallente blaster ships at their optimal range. They all lose by going far away.

Not kidding, you're doing something wrong if you're not hugging that ship harder than something that is too inappropriate to mention on these forums.

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Quote:

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2. No, i very clearly write "myrmidon" as the tank and list all the speeds and signature radiuses that are being compared. Saying i've "hidden" this from you is like saying that cigarettes don't have a warning label informing you of the dangers of smoking.

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Quote:

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Now, if i was to compare a Geddon against a megathron you would actually see something much worse. Because well...

The Megathron has much more EM/Thermal EHP(in percentages as well) than a myrmidon and the tracking difference that you see in the tanks is actually exasterbated by the fact that a Megathron can exploit the fact that it has a 37.5% tracking bonus on top of its 30% tracking advantage to maximize transversal at lower ranges and increase its DPS while reducing the Armageddons.

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Quote:

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Ironically, even though the Abaddon is a universally better ship, the megathron will do even better because the relative tracking advantage jumps from about 40% to something utterly ridiculous like 114%.

---

Quote:

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And of course the Megathron can fit a rep, mwd, injector, web, point, and neutralizer all at the same time.

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Quote:

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Hyperion x Mega stuff

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Quote:

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Anyway, basically what I am saying is that you walked into a big "ha ha" these graphs actually represent the lasers better than how they are typically going to play out in those situations you discuss so long as the blaster pilot isn't flying like a complete ponce.

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Originally by: Deschenus Maximus

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Don't nerf lasers. Boost blasters, ffs.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Ha ha, fooled again. While the Geddon does indeed have a larger base capacitor it does not last as long because it uses much much more cap. Its more susceptible to neuts since it cannot fit a heavy injector(at least not in the fit shown there, its out of CPU and PG for one) and its still a lot less efficient than a passive Abaddon which as you can see, looks a lot worse on paper than it really is.

The difference in cap is actually less than a single 800 cap charger, which the mega can gleefully inject on its heavy injector whenever it wants while the Geddon is reloading. Case in point, stability on the Mega is 9 minutes with everything running and its 2 minutes on the Geddon.

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Quote:

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But, tricksy again, the comparison BS there with as much EHP (found out later i can actually get 113k EHP, which is a not insignificant number higher than the Geddon) is a Hyperion, which means it's got 200 more cap rather than 300 less cap that the Mega has.

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Quote:

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Not really, no. Not only do smaller ships universally want to close against battleships lest they be ****d horribly by large guns which are not burdened by the problems of tracking at these longer ranges, but the speed changes produced a net speed advantage for battleships against smaller ships so long as the battleship is going less than 30km.

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Quote:

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We discussed this in the other thread as well. You see, while the speed changes significantly impacted the ability of smaller ships to fit range tanks(and they were range tanks, not speed tanks, they avoided BS fire by running away, not actually avoiding it), the agility increase actually increased the acceleration of battleships so much that until they've really gotten up to speed which pre QR means having traveled some 40km, they're more or less equal or advanced on the side of the QR ship.

This means that not only are you mostly faster than you were pre QR and the other guys mostly smaller pre QR but they also have an incentive to fly really close to you if they aren't instantly warping off or running around at a range that neither of you could hit them anyway. Unless you had chosen a proper medium sized gang ship and fit rails so that while you were slightly less efficient at 40km you were actually useful and utilizing the resources available to you. That seems to be too hard for many people though.


For instance you might want to look at a comparison side by side

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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You are too used to laser boats and their imbalanced range, Goum. It is very possible to keep away of blaster boats you know...

---

Quote:

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I am saying that phrases like "the Mega destroys the Geddon at cloge range" are a clever way to try and give the wrong impression about what you are saying.

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Quote:

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About the resists, please, you are talkign about vanilla non hardened resists, which mean absolutely nothing. Hardened resists can be about anything.

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Quote:

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Only if by some magic you can keep the distance between ships low and the transversal high. Which I highly doubt. Especially because, you know, you could be webbed too...

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Quote:

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And Ion Blasters, IF you can find enough grid.

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Quote:

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Active tanking is only useful for very small gangs, like in less than 4 battleships or so. More than this and active tank is a joke. Ironically blasters became a joke at this point too, because the incapacity to focus fire.

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Quote:

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Assuming we are tallkign about this situation (less than 4 ships in the gang), yes, the hyperion has advantages in relation to the Mega. Then again, the Mega can work in RR gangs, and the hyperion can't.

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Quote:

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These graphics are a joke. Well at least half a joke. They do represent the Laser damage well, forgetting that ships that come that close will be webbed and if using MWD maybe scrambled too. On the other hand, they don't give any realistic insight about the Blaster boats, which won't ever hit the intended targets represented in the graphics unless the pilots are compeltely stupid.

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Originally by: Removal Tool

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I read all the comments, but I didn't see this difference mentioned: Torps are not vulnerable to tracking disruption.

So even if perfect Torp damage is rarely achievable, like wrecking shots for blaster and AC boats, it is more dependable, as long as you can stay within range. And then add that Target Painters help any other missile boats in fleet, where tracking enhancers only effect the ship it is fitted on. (*Self-correction TP's now help turrets too.)
Aside from the Fun Police, I feel the game is more balanced than it has been before.

[Edit for self-correction re: TPs)

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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The stabiliy on the geddon is over 6 minutes with the right fitting, and you can use a cap booster if you want. You just have to use 2 heat sinks.

On the other hand you can't fit 3 magstabs a plate, DC 2 + 2 EANM 2, MWD AND a cap booster in a mega. It is just impossible. And just forget abotut neuts and nosfs.

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Quote:

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You are spewing nonsense. Any smaller ship will want to stay far from a blaster battleship, because at long range blasters have absolutely no damage.

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Quote:

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You are grossely exagerating in your coclusions here. No matter how much you want to believe on it, a battlecruiser, even after the speed nerf, will be able to stay outside a blaster battleship range comfortably. As long as the pilot is not completely stupid.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Run away. Not keep away. One implies you're no longer in combat. The other implies you're still dealing DPS.

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Quote:

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Idiot hardened resists can be about anything. Efficient hardened resists are 2 eanms, 1 DC and the rest plates or reps, no exceptions except the Raven and maybe(read, probably not) Maelstrom(which can fit EM hardeners due to the large amount of slots they do not have to trade for damage mods though they clearly make other sacriices). Doesn't matter what the rest of the fit is. Hardeners are simply terrible choices unless you know exactly what you're going to be fighting, affording a pittance of EHP boost for ex/kin/thermal in exchange for a massive loss in EM.

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Quote:

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Well, there is this thing called an MWD, a single one will propel a trimaked plated hyperion over 1200m/s towards its target in due time.

There are also these things called webs. They tend to slow people down. Interestingly enough, the Hyperion can fit 2 and an MWD and everything else that isn't a tempest has 1 or no propulsion what-so-ever.

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Quote:

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Well, the graphs show a target not running an AB or MWD, so its actually assumed the target is scrambled and attempting to attain maximum transversal. Which means they give a pretty good insight on how blaster boats will perform, if you can understand a very basic amount about where fights start(typically around 12km) and which way they are likely to go(closer)

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Wait, so you want 3 magstabs on the Mega and 2 on the Geddon? What?

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Quote:

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Fit for equivalency to compare or at least come close. However you would note that you can drop one EANM for an ANP and quite easily fit it. And with ions and a 1% PG implant you can get a heavy neut, lar, plate, 2 anp, DC, 2 mfs, mwd, point, and web.

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Quote:

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Note: "The right fitting" does not involve a propulsion mod(at least, by my estimation, which can be wrong). I should note that the "right fitting" on a mega/hyp is cap stable with a neut on it.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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No, they do not, this is claptrap.

At 27km, a neutron blaster battleships is hitting for 39.5% of its raw blaster DPS and still has its drones. Lets assume a hyperion since that will lower its Drone DPS slightly which should lower its overall DPS at that range pretty heavily. With 3 ogres(assume space for warriors) that 489 DPS, about 500 DPS assuming 2/2/1. Do you know a Battlecruiser that does 500 DPS at 27km? Because I sure as hell do not. Harbingers top around 450-550 depending on the amount of EHP they have at around 20-22km. And at 22km the Hyperion is doing even more.

It is not my fault you are unable to buy and load null ammunition. This isn't a documented bug, maybe you should detail your problems and submit a report.

With ions, your numbers will be a bit lower, but you're still doing 424 with 1 MFS and a rack of Ions on a Hyperion with 3 ogres. So you're still outdoing an FMP harbinger at that range.

Oh, forgot to mention. That is all before resists, so the lasers fall further and they were still pretty much top dog. Sorry, your smaller ships that try and run away and still deal DPS to you. Unless its a coordinated gang, you're screwed. And if it is a coordinated gang, you should be screwed(or killing any elements that have to come close, or leaving)

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Quote:

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Yea, all those stupid battlecruiser pilots fitting a tank instead of beam lasers and tracking computers in small gang warfare.

Oh, wait.

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How about this, i will get on sisi with my near maxed Harbinger pilot(if the update was recently, its everything 5, spec 4, drone spec 3, DI 5). I'll fly any set that can keep you from warping and orbit at any range above 15km. You can sit still and let me orbit at the pre-determined range.

You will win every time. Handily.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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I want to fit 2 magstabs on both. But if you want 3 in your mega, be my guest, thongs will be worse for you.

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Quote:

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And no cap booster.

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Quote:

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Your estimation is wrong:

1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II

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Originally by: Goumindong

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What? Then why did you suggest it?

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Nope, heavy electrochemical

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He he.

No, my estimation was correct. 95k EHP...

Use a medium injector.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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That assuming your drones can reach the target withotu getting popped first. And assuming the terget will stay at 27 km when you start hitting it. As I said, useless example. The most you can manage is a draw, as the target will just leave.

As I said, using smaller targets as an example of how blasters are fine is stupid.

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Better yet, lets do the following. We go 1x1, you with a mega and I with a geddon. I can bet I will win more than 50% of the time. The I go with 2 geddons and you try 2 Megas. I guarantee I will win everytime.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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I didn't.

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Please, show me this fitting, of a Megathron with neutron blasters, a heavy electrochemical, a LAR and a plate. I am very curious now.

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Your estimation was no propulsion module, thus incorrect.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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big talk about pvp and fail geddon fits

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Using smaller targets is a great example of how blasters have an advantage against ships that the competition doesn't because you're more likely to engage smaller ships at closer ranges when you're flying solo and small gang. Its almost as if the typical engagement ranges dictated by gate jump in distances and warps have produced a situation which describes exactly what I have been defining as giving the blaster ships the advantage.

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Note: The blaster BS might draw if the BC can leave. The pulse ship will lose when the BC closes, reduces DPS to an inconsequential amount and chews through its EHP.

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Sure, send me the maxed skilled mega pilots and I'll get right on that.


P.S. you'd lose hilariously.

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Originally by: gubigoo

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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big talk about pvp and fail geddon fits

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Etho Demerzel

0 kills

41 losses most of which are - wait for it - HAULING vessels

lol man yeah gallente will need a serious boost to make you any good at pvp paper tiger

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Originally by: Goumindong

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I could have been a typo, but you certainly did

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Please, show me this fitting, of a Megathron with neutron blasters, a heavy electrochemical, a LAR and a plate. I am very curious now.

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My estimation also had the entirely reasonable unspoken estimation that the tank was not clownshoes.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Yes, because the target that has just passed through the jump gate gate and is cloaked in an unknown position won't start t accelerate first and can't easily run away...

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Unless it is an AB cruiser that won't happen. especially considering that at this range, the target will be completely obliterated by the drones.

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I can arrange the amarr battleship pilots. I have friends you know. You on the other hand will have to get your mega pilots on your own, which can present a challenge given your popularity...

Either way, the one who will lose comically will be you.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Not always, no. Not that it matters in the scope of the question because not fighting the guy is better than exploding horribly which the Amarr ship will do.

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You've never actually tried it have you?

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You don't need to arrange the amarr bs pilots, you need to arrange the missing piece of the puzzle, the blaster pilot.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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I said you can't put 3 magstabs in a mega with that configuration, and thus comapred a 2 magstabs mega with a 2 heatsing geddon. You should read what you quote before you do it.

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Sorry, but ions don't count. They are a joke at range.

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There is no such a thing as reasonable unspoken, that is just a face saving bull****.

And 95K EHP is still comparable to what you can achieve in a Neutron Mega.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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As I am trying to prove the point that amarr are better and you the opposite I wouldn't let you play with the amarr, would I? It would be a biased test...

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Fear not, this is easier to test. We just need a battlecruiser to horribly kill the armageddon, with its ubber speed at close range. Good luck.

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Originally by: Rhadamantine

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Because no one on here posts with a alt? Oh wait.....

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Originally by: Goumindong

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with a LOT of luck and some bad piloting by the Hyperion granted

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Originally by: gubigoo

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And all of them have reasons for it. (like sucking at pvp as is the case with etho)

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Originally by: gubigoo

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Originally by: Rhadamantine

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Because no one on here posts with a alt? Oh wait.....

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And all of them have reasons for it. (like sucking at pvp as is the case with etho)

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Originally by: gubigoo

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And all of them have reasons for it. (like sucking at pvp as is the case with etho)

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What would be your reason then?

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Originally by: gubigoo

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I don't take part in a balance discussion. Thus i don't see a reason to actually prove that i have a clue and let my main be sucked into these troll threads.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Watch it. The reason its valid is because of the vast gulf between the Hyperion and the Abaddon in terms of efficacy in dealing with smaller targets.

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Originally by: ElCoCo

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Why don't you guys chat about it over msn

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Originally by: Neutrino Sunset

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Goum can you post the Mega setup with 120k ehp and 2 mag stabs please?

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Originally by: Venomae

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Pointless thread.

Everyone knows that Drones are the best weapon system in New Eden.

Blasters? Pfft. Lasers? Haha. Torps? LMAO.

Buff drones!

Drone dmg rigs!

Drone dmg mods!

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Originally by: ElCoCo

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Why don't you guys chat about it over msn

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Because this is a discussion forum. The very motive these things exist is to discuss you know.

Additionally considering we are on topic and you are not, I suggest you open a thread in out of pod experience about MSN chats.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Do you have any idea of how many target painters do you need over the target to inflict full torpedo damage in a battleship moving at 300 m/s?

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Originally by: fuxinos

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Troll fails at being a troll.

T1 Torps go 20Km with max skills, Javs go 30Km.... Megapulse II with Scorch goes over 50Km.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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No, torps are not vulnerable to tracking disruptors, but they are vulnerable to ABs. More than turrets are to tracking duisruptors I should say.

If you intend to put tracking disruptors on your ship to directly counter turrets, the correct comparison is a similar ship with ABs to directly counter torps.

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Originally by: Venomae

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Buff drones!

Drone dmg rigs!

Drone dmg mods!

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Originally by: Omarvelous

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Why am I still hearing about AFTERBURNERs on BS?

What battleship uses an AB for pvp?! I'm dying to know - I haven't done it, and I don't see my opponents rocking afterburners.

What is the benefit in going 300 m/s to get into combat range, when a MWD will do it better. What benefit is an AB giving you that a different mid slot item wouldn't be better for?

I'm not trying to be an ass - I'm just wondering why people are using afterburner fits to compare BS weapon systems for pvp.

Its rediculous.

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The module, Stasis Web II fixes that problem. Add two and a target painter for good measure.

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Originally by: Omarvelous

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Why am I still hearing about AFTERBURNERs on BS?
What battleship uses an AB for pvp?! I'm dying to know - I haven't done it, and I don't see my opponents rocking afterburners.
What is the benefit in going 300 m/s to get into combat range, when a MWD will do it better. What benefit is an AB giving you that a different mid slot item wouldn't be better for?
I'm not trying to be an ass - I'm just wondering why people are using afterburner fits to compare BS weapon systems for pvp.
Its rediculous.

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Originally by: Rastigan

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AB's on a BS pretty much reduce torpedo and cruise missile damage by 50% and make it very hard for the long range guns to hit you.. No, they are no were near as fast as MWD's but they also take very little damage from overloading and dont drain all your cap in 1 minute.

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Originally by: Artemis Rose

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And then you get double webbed and you go 90m/s. Top speed.

Wow, Torps/Cruise and long range guns will still hit you perfectly well.

Oops

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Comically wrong.

Two webs and you get that AB BS going at impotent speeds. Not to mention that any BS with an AB is comedy fail fit.

Now tracking disruptors can push the beloved Scorch L optimal to under 7km. I'd say thats more of an effect than some idiot thinking an AB is a good midslot for a PvP BS.

We won't even go into changeable damage types either.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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There is one justification to fit MWD on battleships, it is called bubbles,

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Originally by: Stab Wounds

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I agree NERF the heck out of large bs lasers, they have better range and dps than all other guns.

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Nobody puts an AB on a BS you stupid ignorant trolls. Go play eve and stfu. There, just to put it out there.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Your argumentation is inconsistent, incoherent and ultimately nonsensical.

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There is no such a thing as balance point for each weapon system.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Considering Webs are stack penalyzed, and now reduce only 60% of the speed, after being double webbed you will be at half your original speed (about 60 m/s for a battleship

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As I explained above two webs are a bit unrealistic and with a single web AB still reduces about 40$ of the damage over you.

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Nobody puts an AB on a BS you stupid ignorant trolls. Go play eve and stfu. There, just to put it out there.

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Nobody puts an AB on a BS you stupid ignorant trolls. Go play eve and stfu. There, just to put it out there.

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Originally by: Artemis Rose

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Well inside the torp explosion velocity, even with crap skills. Where's this damage reduction that you speak of?

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Having two webs in a whole gang is far from being realistic.

Now if we step in your magical, wonderful world of theory crafting 1 vs 1 BS fighting, an AB BS couldn't possibly kill an MWD one. Why?

If the MWD BS wants to be close, it will come in close, and if it doesn't, you won't be fighting it. It would just harmlessly burn out of your point range and escape into the stars.

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Nobody puts an AB on a BS you stupid ignorant trolls. Go play eve and stfu. There, just to put it out there.

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Thank you Lyria. Simple and to the point.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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I will assume you are being sincere and want to discuss about it, and not trolling. So I will take my time and answer you.

ABs will greatly reduce the damage you take from both missiles and Blasters. They can't be shut down by blaster boats with warp scramblers, and don't increase your sig radius.

If you have a blaster boat you can't escape from having to use a MWD, but in a high range battleship like any amarr or caldari one ABs may be a better option, especially in low sec where escaping from bubbles is not an issue.

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Originally by: Wideen

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Originally by: Murina

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Originally by: Artemis Rose

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Hmm.. for the sake of argument, lets compare Torps and Pulse.

At 15km, what does more damage?

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Pulse by far unless its a stationary barn door sized ship.

Originally by: Artemis Rose

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At 20-30km what does more damage?

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Pulse by far unless its a stationary barn door sized ship.

Originally by: Artemis Rose

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30km-45km what does more damage?

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Pulse by far unless its a stationary barn door sized ship.

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yes, target painters don't exist, otherwise I'd be a different scenario ...

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Nobody puts an AB on a BS you stupid ignorant trolls. Go play eve and stfu. There, just to put it out there.

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Originally by: Omarvelous

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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I will assume you are being sincere and want to discuss about it, and not trolling. So I will take my time and answer you.

ABs will greatly reduce the damage you take from both missiles and Blasters. They can't be shut down by blaster boats with warp scramblers, and don't increase your sig radius.

If you have a blaster boat you can't escape from having to use a MWD, but in a high range battleship like any amarr or caldari one ABs may be a better option, especially in low sec where escaping from bubbles is not an issue.

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I'm as sincere as they come.

You are suggesting speed tanking with an AB on a high DPS battleship.

The key for any short range high dps weapon is getting into your optimal as fast as possible.

This will not happen with an AB.

You will waste time getting form one ship to the next, all for tanking better.

As for scrams....


So what? Gank BS can still do dps beyond scram range - the point is getting within 20km 3x faster with a MWD vs a an AB.

PvP is about dictating range for your engagement.

A battleship going 300 m/s isn't dictating ****.

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Originally by: Stab Wounds

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so wut you can tank most large gun damage going from target to target and you switch to longer range ammo

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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So we have easily demonstrated that your argument is moot. Now to the 1x1 case. In the magical world of 1x1, also known as the only world where gallente stands a chance, if the MWD battleship decides to engage, it won't be able to activate its MWD anymore and there fore will be locked and slower than the AB one. So yes, the MWD battleship can run away if it starts far enough from the AB, but as long as it engages it loses.

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Originally by: Stab Wounds

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so wut you can tank most large gun damage going from target to target and you switch to longer range ammo

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Nobody puts an AB on a BS you stupid ignorant trolls. Go play eve and stfu. There, just to put it out there.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Do you have any idea of how many target painters do you need over the target to inflict full torpedo damage in a battleship moving at 300 m/s?

As it is now full torpedo damage is only achievable against capitals or battleships tripple webbed and painted.

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Originally by: Inara Subaka

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Do you have any idea of how many target painters do you need over the target to inflict full torpedo damage in a battleship moving at 300 m/s?

As it is now full torpedo damage is only achievable against capitals or battleships tripple webbed and painted.

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You're doing it wrong. As a full time Torp user, let me assure you that torps are a cruiser's (let alone anything bigger) worst enemy with 1 or 2 TPs on him and dual webbed from a Rapier/Huginn.

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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You don't really need the Huginn. Before QR, you needed your target webbed to prevent it MWDing off and laughing at you, and all non-Caldari tier 1-2 BS needed to be painted to receive full torp damage.

In QR, your BS torp target needs to be webbed and painted just as much as it did before QR. Nothing changed... except possibly some EFT warriors thought about fitting lol-ABs.

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Originally by: Inara Subaka

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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Do you have any idea of how many target painters do you need over the target to inflict full torpedo damage in a battleship moving at 300 m/s?

As it is now full torpedo damage is only achievable against capitals or battleships tripple webbed and painted.

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You're doing it wrong. As a full time Torp user, let me assure you that torps are a cruiser's (let alone anything bigger) worst enemy with 1 or 2 TPs on him and dual webbed from a Rapier/Huginn.

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Originally by: Garia666

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keep in mind that pulse only does 2 types of damage.

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keep in mind that pulse only does 2 types of damage.

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Originally by: Pac SubCom

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- ACs fight in falloff and their damage sucks

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Originally by: Pac SubCom

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- Artillery is total suckage by definition

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Originally by: Pac SubCom

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- Blasters have no range and no tracking

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Originally by: Pac SubCom

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- Rails do low damage

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Originally by: Pac SubCom

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- Missiles suck because of low explosion velocity

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Originally by: Pac SubCom

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- Drones can be shot down and do low damage on their own compared to guns on gunships

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Originally by: Pac SubCom

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- Pulse are great because they do massive damage, track well enough at all ranges and have wonderful range far outside that of blasters, AC and torps.

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