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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Atlanton Marcus
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.14 00:04:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Jonas Barcal Oh while we're nerfing things nerf dps by 95% I want active tanking to be viable again.
Because sarcasm is always a worthy equivalent to a well-founded argument. |
Jonas Barcal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.14 00:06:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Atlanton Marcus
Originally by: Jonas Barcal Oh while we're nerfing things nerf dps by 95% I want active tanking to be viable again.
Because sarcasm is always a worthy equivalent to a well-founded argument.
No violence is a worthy equivalent to a well-founded argument.
I actually gave my preferred changes to ECM ships earlier in the thread but a certain someone couldn't make up their mind whether or not they wanted to nerf range or ECM itself. |
Atlanton Marcus
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.14 00:14:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Jonas Barcal
Originally by: Atlanton Marcus
Originally by: Jonas Barcal Oh while we're nerfing things nerf dps by 95% I want active tanking to be viable again.
Because sarcasm is always a worthy equivalent to a well-founded argument.
No violence is a worthy equivalent to a well-founded argument.
I actually gave my preferred changes to ECM ships earlier in the thread but a certain someone couldn't make up their mind whether or not they wanted to nerf range or ECM itself.
I guess violence could fill that gap, but unfortunately, I can't find a place for it in this context.
I have stated that I personally would prefer a balance to ECM than anything, so I can't be arsed to find who you're referring too.
And I did read your preferred changes to ECM, and as a matter of fact I dedicated the first paragraph of my first post to them. |
Jonas Barcal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.14 00:19:00 -
[244]
I doubt if any changes come to ECM to 'fix' the issue some people have we'll end up with a balanced solutions, most likely ECM will end up unsable for the next year or so with CCP busy doing the ongoing T3 development and ambulation. |
Jonas Barcal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.14 00:22:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Atlanton Marcus
I have stated that I personally would prefer a balance to ECM than anything, so I can't be arsed to find who you're referring too.
Three threads going on and I'm not even sure which one I made the post in
I'd said as most people complained about range I'd personally prefer to turn ECM and ewar generally into highslot 'weapons' and then balance the ships out to be in the thich of the battle with proper tanks.
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SirMoric
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.14 01:25:00 -
[246]
Oh, did I mention these countermeasures, try them, they work if you know how to fit them:
Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity
Ship Equipment: Electronic Warfare: ECCM
Ship Equipment: Electronic Warfare: Projected ECCM
Ship Equipment: Electronic Warfare: Sensor Backup Arrays
rgds
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Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.14 02:07:00 -
[247]
Originally by: SirMoric Oh, did I mention these countermeasures, try them, they work if you know how to fit them:
Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity
Ship Equipment: Electronic Warfare: ECCM
Ship Equipment: Electronic Warfare: Projected ECCM
Ship Equipment: Electronic Warfare: Sensor Backup Arrays
rgds
Nope, they don't work.
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Ross Ahearn
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Posted - 2009.01.14 03:31:00 -
[248]
Ummm
No. Lets keep ECM. I like it. It works. Its not 100 % gaurenteed but there are ships with specific role bonuses that make this work. If you train up even more EW skills the CHANCED based EW plus fittings increases the chance that your very low hitpoint ECM will work. I like ECM. ITs like saying we should scrap mining barges and do away with those. We have the ubber Orca now, so lets just fit one super mining laser that consumes all the veldspar in one belt in 90 seconds. Ummm....yeah i completely disagree with the getting rid of ECM. It was much more deavasting about 2 years ago when getting jammed ( maybe longer) ment certian death. Getting jammed now takes alot of skills and alot of mods + ships to pull it off right. Read up on ECCM if you dont like death by jamming Syndrome. Also if your jammed it probally means some fleet commander brought a fleet with a better setup than yours. Would you walk down a dark alley at night with no friends in a potentially dangerous situation? Same rules apply in eve, but it is after all a game with internet space ships :)
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Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.01.14 03:37:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
Yes they do work, depending on what ship you have them equipped on, and your gang compliment.
You somehow are convinced they work when they obviously barely only work on BS and recons.
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Atlanton Marcus
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.14 04:50:00 -
[250]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: SirMoric Oh, did I mention these countermeasures, try them, they work if you know how to fit them:
Information Warfare Link - Sensor Integrity
Ship Equipment: Electronic Warfare: ECCM
Ship Equipment: Electronic Warfare: Projected ECCM
Ship Equipment: Electronic Warfare: Sensor Backup Arrays
rgds
Nope, they don't work.
Please stop arguing, step back, and work out the math for jamming, sensor strength, and modules that boost sensor strength. You will find that ECCM does in fact reduce your chance to get jammed, so it is absolutely pointless to argue that ECCM "doesn't work".
I agree that ECM requires some balancing or adjustments, but your methods of supporting change is just as repetitive and ineffective as SirMoric's copy/paste.
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Syn G
Gallente Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.01.14 07:43:00 -
[251]
why not just make it have a reactivation time like cloaks do? and take away the 20 second duration. make it just drop all locks. or at least lower it to 5 sec or something.
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PsychoBones Jr
THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2009.01.14 07:54:00 -
[252]
Just wanted to throw out there for the "Fit ECCM you noobs" crowd that this Falcon hit 75% of it's jams on my 101 sensor strength Curse |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.14 09:26:00 -
[253]
Originally by: PsychoBones Jr Just wanted to throw out there for the "Fit ECCM you noobs" crowd that this Falcon hit 75% of it's jams on my 101 sensor strength Curse
How was the falcon fitted?
Was the falcon trying to jam any other ships or just you? |
PsychoBones Jr
THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2009.01.14 09:28:00 -
[254]
Edited by: PsychoBones Jr on 14/01/2009 09:28:39
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: PsychoBones Jr Just wanted to throw out there for the "Fit ECCM you noobs" crowd that this Falcon hit 75% of it's jams on my 101 sensor strength Curse
How was the falcon fitted?
Was the falcon trying to jam any other ships or just you?
No idea.
Should it matter? I had 101 Snsor strength ffs.
Edit: You can see from the killmail that he wasn't using exclusively amarr jammers. |
daisy dook
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Posted - 2009.01.14 11:44:00 -
[255]
Originally by: PsychoBones Jr Edited by: PsychoBones Jr on 14/01/2009 09:28:39
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: PsychoBones Jr Just wanted to throw out there for the "Fit ECCM you noobs" crowd that this Falcon hit 75% of it's jams on my 101 sensor strength Curse
How was the falcon fitted?
Was the falcon trying to jam any other ships or just you?
No idea.
Should it matter? I had 101 Snsor strength ffs.
Edit: You can see from the killmail that he wasn't using exclusively amarr jammers.
Must have been his lucky day then; though I would surmise that if he's using off racial jammers then he was throwing everything at you.
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Caldess
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.01.14 11:54:00 -
[256]
i really think somethink needs to be done just maybe even nerf the range a little. or boost every ship in game sensor strength by even 1 or 2
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Awesome Marie
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Posted - 2009.01.14 13:00:00 -
[257]
I believe that much of the arguments about falcons NOT being overpowered comes from 0.0-massive-fleet-dudes. And you are correct, in those situations, falcons are not owerpowered, they do their job just like any other ship. In small gang warfare, wich A LOT of us still are trying to do, falcons are completely stupidly and utterly ragingly crazy good. Falcons needs to be balanced so they still do their job well in 0.0, but also is a sane ship in small gang. Not the super crazy pimpmobile it is at the moment.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.01.14 13:09:00 -
[258]
Originally by: PsychoBones Jr Just wanted to throw out there for the "Fit ECCM you noobs" crowd that this Falcon hit 75% of it's jams on my 101 sensor strength Curse
If he was using 5 Amarr racials on you (a VERY unlikely fitting for the falcon), he would have 54% of chance of jamming you.
If he had 2 gravimetric and 1 of each other race (much more common) he would have 24% or chance to jam you.
With 5 multspecs he would have 38% of jamming you.
So you either was VERY unlucky (a thing that could have happened to him as well), or you are lying about the 75%... =====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.14 13:15:00 -
[259]
Originally by: PsychoBones Jr Just wanted to throw out there for the "Fit ECCM you noobs" crowd that this Falcon hit 75% of it's jams on my 101 sensor strength Curse
Just cos you have a kill mail and a falcon is on it does not mean you were jammed it just means he tried to jam you.
Also its imposable for you to be able to tell if he hit 75% of his jams.
And last but not least look at the dmg done by the ships you were fighting, the ishkur, raven and Lachesis did between 3-4k dmg each so it was hardly a long drawn out battle.
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SirMoric
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.14 13:41:00 -
[260]
Originally by: PsychoBones Jr Just wanted to throw out there for the "Fit ECCM you noobs" crowd that this Falcon hit 75% of it's jams on my 101 sensor strength Curse
You got killed by a gang of 5 ships? And you blame the Falcon?
Did you expect to win if the Falcon wasn't there? Did you expect to kill any of them if the Falcon wasn't there?
rgds
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.14 14:16:00 -
[261]
Originally by: PsychoBones Jr Edited by: PsychoBones Jr on 14/01/2009 09:28:39
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: PsychoBones Jr Just wanted to throw out there for the "Fit ECCM you noobs" crowd that this Falcon hit 75% of it's jams on my 101 sensor strength Curse
How was the falcon fitted?
Was the falcon trying to jam any other ships or just you?
No idea.
Should it matter? I had 101 Snsor strength ffs.
Edit: You can see from the killmail that he wasn't using exclusively amarr jammers.
Um, yeah it should matter. It would change your chance of being jammed.
Most people don't understand chance very well at all.
Did you know that the chance of a dice rolling 10 6s in a row is exactly the same as it rolling 6.1.6.4.2.4.1.3.6.2? Most people don't, or if they "know" it, they don't really believe it.
Did you know that if you roll 10 6s in a row, that your chance of rolling another 6 is.... exactly the same as rolling any other number? Again, most people will "know" this if the question is asked in that way - but hardly any of them will act is if it were true.
You remember the 10 6s. You don't remember all the times the dice just rolled a bunch of different numbers. It's human psychology. It's also the reason casinos make so much money: people just don't believe in randomness. You're one of them as your "I had 101 Snsor strength ffs" comment demonstrates.
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PsychoBones Jr
THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2009.01.14 14:23:00 -
[262]
Originally by: SirMoric
Originally by: PsychoBones Jr Just wanted to throw out there for the "Fit ECCM you noobs" crowd that this Falcon hit 75% of it's jams on my 101 sensor strength Curse
You got killed by a gang of 5 ships? And you blame the Falcon?
Did you expect to win if the Falcon wasn't there? Did you expect to kill any of them if the Falcon wasn't there?
rgds
Actually it was originally just the Ishkur and Ares there, which is why I engaged. I knew about the Falcon being nearby, thus the fitting. I took Ares into armor before the Falcon decloaked and jammed me, enabling the Ares to warp off. The Lachy came in about a minute into the fight, and eventually the Ares warped back in. The Raven then jumped in and I burned towards the Falcon (which is why he was in range to do damage to me). He missed a jam cycle as I closed in, but due to damps from the Lachy I was unable to get a lock before the next jam cycle. Getting hit by the Raven's cruises I decided to burn away and try to get out of jam range (lol). The Ares and the Warrior 2s from the Ishkur where the only thing able to keep pace with me, but due to jamming, I was unable to do anything to break his tackle. Eventually the Warrior 2s wore me down and I died.
So to answer your question, yes, I do blame the Falcon for that ship dying, in spite of my insane sensor strength. I kept the Fraps of the fight (2 and a half minutes-ish) for a few months but lost it when I reformatted my HD recently.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.01.14 14:38:00 -
[263]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 14/01/2009 14:38:00
Originally by: PsychoBones Jr
Actually it was originally just the Ishkur and Ares there, which is why I engaged. I knew about the Falcon being nearby, thus the fitting. I took Ares into armor before the Falcon decloaked and jammed me, enabling the Ares to warp off. The Lachy came in about a minute into the fight, and eventually the Ares warped back in. The Raven then jumped in and I burned towards the Falcon (which is why he was in range to do damage to me). He missed a jam cycle as I closed in, but due to damps from the Lachy I was unable to get a lock before the next jam cycle. Getting hit by the Raven's cruises I decided to burn away and try to get out of jam range (lol). The Ares and the Warrior 2s from the Ishkur where the only thing able to keep pace with me, but due to jamming, I was unable to do anything to break his tackle. Eventually the Warrior 2s wore me down and I died.
So a gang of 5 people were able to hold you when you decided to disengage a fight you looked for. Seems perfect to me. You shouldn't be able to disengage a fight at will.
And the lachesis alone could have dampened you to oblivion and deactivated your MWD thus pinning you down.
Quote:
So to answer your question, yes, I do blame the Falcon for that ship dying, in spite of my insane sensor strength. I kept the Fraps of the fight (2 and a half minutes-ish) for a few months but lost it when I reformatted my HD recently.
How convenient, isn't it? But I am sure we will take your word for the recounting of the events.
Originally by: Malcanis
It has nothing to do with believing whether I got unlucky that one time. If it was just one time, we wouldn't have about several 5-10+ page threads regarding the overpoweredness of Falcons on the first 10 pages of this forum.
There are 200K players in this game, probably around 10-20K come to these forums, especially when they are ****ed. If the chance of this happening was 1% per event that would make 200 disgruntled peoplesupposing each of the 20 k encountered a falcon only once.
Accounting for multiple encounters it is not hard to predicted a few thousand disgruntled people that are too stupid to remember about the other 99% of the time their 101 str ship was NOT jammed. |
PsychoBones Jr
THE INTERNET.
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Posted - 2009.01.14 14:45:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
So a gang of 5 people were able to hold you when you decided to disengage a fight you looked for. Seems perfect to me. You shouldn't be able to disengage a fight at will.
And the lachesis alone could have dampened you to oblivion and deactivated your MWD thus pinning you down.
Pre-QR, so no deactivation of MWD. I was also well out of his damp range by the time the fight ended. Regardless of whether a pre-QR nano-Curse should have been able to disengage from that fight or not, a pre-QR nano-Curse could disengage from that fight at will. The only reason I couldn't was because of the Falcon.
At any rate, I'm not going to argue with you about whether it actually happened or not, because I don't really care whether you believe me or not. I've made my argument against the Falcon, you'll make yours for it. |
Murina
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.01.14 15:38:00 -
[265]
Originally by: PsychoBones Jr
At any rate, I'm not going to argue with you about whether it actually happened or not, because I don't really care whether you believe me or not. I've made my argument against the Falcon, you'll make yours for it.
Your not the first and i doubt you will be the last to make claims about a falcon, not so long ago a carrier pilot made claims of having 500+ str and being"perma" jammed.
He even took a screen shot of his setup and showing that he was jammed although as soon as he was challenged to make fraps to prove it was a "perma" jam and not just a screenie of a single lucky cycle he went kinda quiet and stopped posting...........
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2009.01.14 15:56:00 -
[266]
Originally by: PsychoBones Jr Regardless of whether a pre-QR nano-Curse should have been able to disengage from that fight or not, a pre-QR nano-Curse could disengage from that fight at will. The only reason I couldn't was because of the Falcon.
Then it is great it was there, isn't it? I mean if you had a ship that could disengage at will it would be blatantly overpowered. Fortunatelly there are counters as the falcon on this case.
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SirMoric
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.01.14 15:59:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Malcanis Um, yeah it should matter. It would change your chance of being jammed.
Most people don't understand chance very well at all.
Did you know that the chance of a dice rolling 10 6s in a row is exactly the same as it rolling 6.1.6.4.2.4.1.3.6.2? Most people don't, or if they "know" it, they don't really believe it.
Did you know that if you roll 10 6s in a row, that your chance of rolling another 6 is.... exactly the same as rolling any other number? Again, most people will "know" this if the question is asked in that way - but hardly any of them will act is if it were true.
You remember the 10 6s. You don't remember all the times the dice just rolled a bunch of different numbers. It's human psychology. It's also the reason casinos make so much money: people just don't believe in randomness. You're one of them as your "I had 101 Snsor strength ffs" comment demonstrates.
You're right, but the chance of rolling 11 6s in a row, is alot less than rolling a 6, after having rolled the first 10 6s.
Which means the chance of a succesfull jam, with 50% chance, is like flipping a coin, for each flip there's a 50% chance of succes, but for 4 jams in a row the probability is a lot less than the probability for a succesfull 4. jam, after 3 succesfull ones.
Get the drift?
rgds |
daisy dook
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Posted - 2009.01.14 17:19:00 -
[268]
Originally by: SirMoric
Originally by: Malcanis Um, yeah it should matter. It would change your chance of being jammed.
Most people don't understand chance very well at all.
Did you know that the chance of a dice rolling 10 6s in a row is exactly the same as it rolling 6.1.6.4.2.4.1.3.6.2? Most people don't, or if they "know" it, they don't really believe it.
Did you know that if you roll 10 6s in a row, that your chance of rolling another 6 is.... exactly the same as rolling any other number? Again, most people will "know" this if the question is asked in that way - but hardly any of them will act is if it were true.
You remember the 10 6s. You don't remember all the times the dice just rolled a bunch of different numbers. It's human psychology. It's also the reason casinos make so much money: people just don't believe in randomness. You're one of them as your "I had 101 Snsor strength ffs" comment demonstrates.
You're right, but the chance of rolling 11 6s in a row, is alot less than rolling a 6, after having rolled the first 10 6s.
Which means the chance of a succesfull jam, with 50% chance, is like flipping a coin, for each flip there's a 50% chance of succes, but for 4 jams in a row the probability is a lot less than the probability for a succesfull 4. jam, after 3 succesfull ones.
Get the drift?
rgds
I think you missed his point; each jam is an independent event.
In the sequence of jam, jam, jam and jam the chance of your next jam is 50%
In the sequence of fail, fail, fail and fail the chance of your next jam is 50%
In the sequence of jam, jam, fail, fail, fail and jam the chance of your next jam is still 50% because each event is independent of the preceeding event. |
Cohkka
Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2009.01.14 17:23:00 -
[269]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
So a gang of 5 people were able to hold you when you decided to disengage a fight you looked for. Seems perfect to me. You shouldn't be able to disengage a fight at will.
But I guess a falcon should be able to do it? Now that makes sense...
Your logic is way off. If someone took precautions and carefully choose his fight he should be able to disengage when he meets a certain point (like killing off the scramblers). In a fight taking that long its not unusual when the attacker disengages as reinforcement arrives. This is just a perfect example of a Falcon destroying small scale/solo PvP.
As someone posted aboth, I too don't care what a falcon does to larger fleets because there it's somehow ballanced, there it's just support. It's what it does to small gangs what gets people upset. |
daisy dook
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Posted - 2009.01.14 17:31:00 -
[270]
Originally by: Cohkka
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
So a gang of 5 people were able to hold you when you decided to disengage a fight you looked for. Seems perfect to me. You shouldn't be able to disengage a fight at will.
But I guess a falcon should be able to do it? Now that makes sense...
Your logic is way off. If someone took precautions and carefully choose his fight he should be able to disengage when he meets a certain point (like killing off the scramblers). In a fight taking that long its not unusual when the attacker disengages as reinforcement arrives. This is just a perfect example of a Falcon destroying small scale/solo PvP.
As someone posted aboth, I too don't care what a falcon does to larger fleets because there it's somehow ballanced, there it's just support. It's what it does to small gangs what gets people upset.
He took precautions the best he could, he just happened to be unlucky that the Falcons whole suite of ewar was devoted to him (5-6 jammers); maybe if he'd have had a friend then all the jammers wouldn't have been devoted to him and he would have escaped.
A cautionary tale for solo PvP, don't stay in range of a point. |
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