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Meatead
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Posted - 2004.08.12 15:14:00 -
[1]
I mean really? are all minmater bs pilots just pushing their toys out of the pram because they want to be the best bs? I dont think so.
Would be nice to see a dev actually look into the balance on the t2 bs atm rather than just hiding under a rock saying there is no problem. Sure you guys are probably swamped with problems/bugs/new content/code updates etc but it is plain to see that the number of minmater actually flying tempests now is so low that unless the situation is adjusted the few remaining die hards will just learn other races bs - where is the specialisation in that? do you really just want everyone flying around in the 'flavour of the month' bs?
We are not asking to make the tempest an uber ship - or a clone of any other of the racial t2 bs - but throw us a bone here dammit - worst tanker, worst dot, least in everything.
Its any wonder that the minmater arent still slaves.
Why should minmater pilots have to train up other racial bs just to compete? the other races dont have to.
At least say you are looking into it - rather than just ignoring that there could be a problem.
If at the end of the day you still dont think there is a problem or that minmater bs are working as intended and competitive then at least you have listened and re-evaluated.
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Meatead
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Posted - 2004.08.12 15:14:00 -
[2]
I mean really? are all minmater bs pilots just pushing their toys out of the pram because they want to be the best bs? I dont think so.
Would be nice to see a dev actually look into the balance on the t2 bs atm rather than just hiding under a rock saying there is no problem. Sure you guys are probably swamped with problems/bugs/new content/code updates etc but it is plain to see that the number of minmater actually flying tempests now is so low that unless the situation is adjusted the few remaining die hards will just learn other races bs - where is the specialisation in that? do you really just want everyone flying around in the 'flavour of the month' bs?
We are not asking to make the tempest an uber ship - or a clone of any other of the racial t2 bs - but throw us a bone here dammit - worst tanker, worst dot, least in everything.
Its any wonder that the minmater arent still slaves.
Why should minmater pilots have to train up other racial bs just to compete? the other races dont have to.
At least say you are looking into it - rather than just ignoring that there could be a problem.
If at the end of the day you still dont think there is a problem or that minmater bs are working as intended and competitive then at least you have listened and re-evaluated.
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Lysender
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Posted - 2004.08.12 15:35:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Lysender on 12/08/2004 15:37:40
The Tempest is still a pretty decent shield tanker. The long range Damage needs to be looked at is all.
Edit: The cpu could use an upgrade of 50 to.
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Lysender
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Posted - 2004.08.12 15:35:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Lysender on 12/08/2004 15:37:40
The Tempest is still a pretty decent shield tanker. The long range Damage needs to be looked at is all.
Edit: The cpu could use an upgrade of 50 to.
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reaTh
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Posted - 2004.08.12 15:41:00 -
[5]
 signed all where asking is to sort 1400s out abit there unusable atm where not asking for shot like this again 2004.07.08 21:41:42 combat Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I perfectly strikes Guristas Nullifier, wrecking for 1171.1 damage.
but atlest give use 80-90% of the tachyons dmg plz  im dieing here
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reaTh
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Posted - 2004.08.12 15:41:00 -
[6]
signed all where asking is to sort 1400s out abit there unusable atm where not asking for shot like this again 2004.07.08 21:41:42 combat Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I perfectly strikes Guristas Nullifier, wrecking for 1171.1 damage.
but atlest give use 80-90% of the tachyons dmg plz im dieing here
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Lysender
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Posted - 2004.08.12 15:50:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Lysender on 12/08/2004 15:52:29
I don't even use tachs, I have large lasers to L5 along with amarr BS L4. But Tempests were always known for there long range Damage and now they're nerfed. I would say 70% of the Damage of tachs would be nice. Tachs use ALLOT of Cap and 1400's use very little. Perhaps lowering the ROF instead of raising the Damage would be better. That also would off set the changes a bit.
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Lysender
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Posted - 2004.08.12 15:50:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Lysender on 12/08/2004 15:52:29
I don't even use tachs, I have large lasers to L5 along with amarr BS L4. But Tempests were always known for there long range Damage and now they're nerfed. I would say 70% of the Damage of tachs would be nice. Tachs use ALLOT of Cap and 1400's use very little. Perhaps lowering the ROF instead of raising the Damage would be better. That also would off set the changes a bit.
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.08.12 16:20:00 -
[9]
It does not need a CPU boost. maybe some slight improve but only a really small one and definately not a cpu or grid boost.
rather a 5.1% more damage per level instead of 5, something like that
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.08.12 16:20:00 -
[10]
It does not need a CPU boost. maybe some slight improve but only a really small one and definately not a cpu or grid boost.
rather a 5.1% more damage per level instead of 5, something like that
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Zu Lu
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Posted - 2004.08.12 16:37:00 -
[11]
 Originally by: Hellek
It does not need a CPU boost. maybe some slight improve but only a really small one and definately not a cpu or grid boost.
rather a 5.1% more damage per level instead of 5, something like that
You can't deny that cpu fitting with long range set up has been nerfed on a tempest with having to use pdu's cos of cap relay nerf and having to fit cruie/siege to fire cruise missiles. Other ships got cpu changed - why not the tempest ?
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Zu Lu
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Posted - 2004.08.12 16:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hellek
It does not need a CPU boost. maybe some slight improve but only a really small one and definately not a cpu or grid boost.
rather a 5.1% more damage per level instead of 5, something like that
You can't deny that cpu fitting with long range set up has been nerfed on a tempest with having to use pdu's cos of cap relay nerf and having to fit cruie/siege to fire cruise missiles. Other ships got cpu changed - why not the tempest ?
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Nieda
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Posted - 2004.08.12 16:58:00 -
[13]
Lower RoF on projectiles across the border. It will help our DoT. Increase 1400's tracking a bit too. Stuff like that.
---------------------------------------------
2004.08.12 14:50:32combatYour 720mm Carbine Howitzer I perfectly strikes Guristas Destructor, wrecking for 543.9 damage. |
Nieda
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Posted - 2004.08.12 16:58:00 -
[14]
Lower RoF on projectiles across the border. It will help our DoT. Increase 1400's tracking a bit too. Stuff like that.
---------------------------------------------
2004.08.12 14:50:32combatYour 720mm Carbine Howitzer I perfectly strikes Guristas Destructor, wrecking for 543.9 damage. |
Jennae
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Posted - 2004.08.12 17:17:00 -
[15]
God. whats up with all these 1400's users. Am I the only one using a tempest for close range?
Anyway, I think close range A/C's need a looking at also. My current setup is either 6x800mm with missiles, or 3x800 and 3xd650s and 2 nosferatus. -(mostly gallium 800s)-
Either way, I challenged a friend in an armor tanked Armageddon, and I CANNOT kill him. We did a trial where he did nothing but run his single repairer and hardeners (exp, kin, therm), and I just pounded away at him. I used over 1000 EMP ammo and 50 cruise missiles, and didnt get him below 50%. Everytime I started to make a little bit of progress, I had to reload, and his repairer caught back up. Imagine if he was running a pair of repairers like most PvP ships do, there would be NO way I could even touch that.
When we go at it full on, I need a pair of repairers just to soak up the dmg that his megapulses dish out, and still barely cope. This doesn't seem balanced too me. I'm not gunna sit here and bash, I just don't see how this can be right, for a T2 battleship loaded for max DOT to not be able to finish off a T1 BS with only a single repairer.
Does anyone else have this problem with close range autocannons?
-My skills are Min BS 3, lrg Prj turret 4, and all other gunnery skills to 3 or 4. I know my skills aren't maxed, but I don't think a couple 5% or 3%'s are gunna make TOO big of a difference in this situation. I'm also always running a gyro II, and the rest of lows used on tanking.
Thanks,
jenn
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Jennae
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Posted - 2004.08.12 17:17:00 -
[16]
God. whats up with all these 1400's users. Am I the only one using a tempest for close range?
Anyway, I think close range A/C's need a looking at also. My current setup is either 6x800mm with missiles, or 3x800 and 3xd650s and 2 nosferatus. -(mostly gallium 800s)-
Either way, I challenged a friend in an armor tanked Armageddon, and I CANNOT kill him. We did a trial where he did nothing but run his single repairer and hardeners (exp, kin, therm), and I just pounded away at him. I used over 1000 EMP ammo and 50 cruise missiles, and didnt get him below 50%. Everytime I started to make a little bit of progress, I had to reload, and his repairer caught back up. Imagine if he was running a pair of repairers like most PvP ships do, there would be NO way I could even touch that.
When we go at it full on, I need a pair of repairers just to soak up the dmg that his megapulses dish out, and still barely cope. This doesn't seem balanced too me. I'm not gunna sit here and bash, I just don't see how this can be right, for a T2 battleship loaded for max DOT to not be able to finish off a T1 BS with only a single repairer.
Does anyone else have this problem with close range autocannons?
-My skills are Min BS 3, lrg Prj turret 4, and all other gunnery skills to 3 or 4. I know my skills aren't maxed, but I don't think a couple 5% or 3%'s are gunna make TOO big of a difference in this situation. I'm also always running a gyro II, and the rest of lows used on tanking.
Thanks,
jenn
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Shimatu
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Posted - 2004.08.12 18:06:00 -
[17]
hey look! over here! more tempest users whining that theyre ship isnt the best anymore!
for a long time, everyone had to use the tempest to have a chance, cause it was far and away the best ship (i didnt, cause its ugly as hell... but i had to try to never have to fight a temp, or i'd have got wasted). now its not. live with it. its not that bad. just try to adapt like everyone else has.
(oh, and lowest DoT award goes to scorpion btw, not tempest.)
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
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Shimatu
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Posted - 2004.08.12 18:06:00 -
[18]
hey look! over here! more tempest users whining that theyre ship isnt the best anymore!
for a long time, everyone had to use the tempest to have a chance, cause it was far and away the best ship (i didnt, cause its ugly as hell... but i had to try to never have to fight a temp, or i'd have got wasted). now its not. live with it. its not that bad. just try to adapt like everyone else has.
(oh, and lowest DoT award goes to scorpion btw, not tempest.)
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
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Sarinas
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Posted - 2004.08.12 18:17:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Shimatu
hey look! over here! more tempest users whining that theyre ship isnt the best anymore!
Hey look! Over here! Another clueless person who has most likely never flown a Tempest in its current state and doesn't know what he's talking about!
Quote:
now its not. live with it. its not that bad. just try to adapt like everyone else has.
Yes, it is bad. I won't repeat what Meatead said. I'm not quite sure myself what exactly is wrong with the Tempest, I'm thinking it either needs a bit more CPU, or a bit more powergrid, or a somewhat faster capacitor recharge rate, nothing big in any case, but something nonetheless. This is not about making it the best, just simple balance.
Quote:
(oh, and lowest DoT award goes to scorpion btw, not tempest.)
I think we're talking about T2 battleships here, thus the Scorp is right out.
---
I bring you joy,
I bring you pain,
I bring you some sunshine
And some rain. |
Sarinas
|
Posted - 2004.08.12 18:17:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Shimatu
hey look! over here! more tempest users whining that theyre ship isnt the best anymore!
Hey look! Over here! Another clueless person who has most likely never flown a Tempest in its current state and doesn't know what he's talking about!
Quote:
now its not. live with it. its not that bad. just try to adapt like everyone else has.
Yes, it is bad. I won't repeat what Meatead said. I'm not quite sure myself what exactly is wrong with the Tempest, I'm thinking it either needs a bit more CPU, or a bit more powergrid, or a somewhat faster capacitor recharge rate, nothing big in any case, but something nonetheless. This is not about making it the best, just simple balance.
Quote:
(oh, and lowest DoT award goes to scorpion btw, not tempest.)
I think we're talking about T2 battleships here, thus the Scorp is right out.
---
I bring you joy,
I bring you pain,
I bring you some sunshine
And some rain. |
Meatead
|
Posted - 2004.08.12 18:30:00 -
[21]
would really like to keep the thread as clean as possible so that a dev can take us seriously.
and yes, this is specifically aimed at tweakage in balancing on all t2 bs.
Changes have occurred over the past months to nerf various things which has meant the steady decline of the tempest...in fact it almost feels like a t1 bs now - so hey, why not just make up a story talking about how minmaters have stolen the bps from their former masters for the apoc bs - and then replace apoc as the minmater t2 bs...problem sorted heh.....
.....walks away mumbling to himself
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Meatead
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Posted - 2004.08.12 18:30:00 -
[22]
would really like to keep the thread as clean as possible so that a dev can take us seriously.
and yes, this is specifically aimed at tweakage in balancing on all t2 bs.
Changes have occurred over the past months to nerf various things which has meant the steady decline of the tempest...in fact it almost feels like a t1 bs now - so hey, why not just make up a story talking about how minmaters have stolen the bps from their former masters for the apoc bs - and then replace apoc as the minmater t2 bs...problem sorted heh.....
.....walks away mumbling to himself
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Teeth
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Posted - 2004.08.12 18:36:00 -
[23]
I think one reason they don't really do anything about it it's that they haven't _consciously_ nerfed the Tempest. So they don't see why anything's wrong with it. The problem is that when you have BIG patches that affect lots of things across the board (changes to falloff, changes to tracking, changes to launcher fitting requirements, changes to ship bonuses and powergrid ALL in one patch), stuff is bound to get thrown off balance. Balance is achieved by tuning things little by little.
Anyways, I guess the safest thing is to not specialize and always have a couple different ship skills so you can adapt to the current patch  I actually have other races skills, but man I love my little junkheap of a Tempest. I love the boom the 1400's make.
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Teeth
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Posted - 2004.08.12 18:36:00 -
[24]
I think one reason they don't really do anything about it it's that they haven't _consciously_ nerfed the Tempest. So they don't see why anything's wrong with it. The problem is that when you have BIG patches that affect lots of things across the board (changes to falloff, changes to tracking, changes to launcher fitting requirements, changes to ship bonuses and powergrid ALL in one patch), stuff is bound to get thrown off balance. Balance is achieved by tuning things little by little.
Anyways, I guess the safest thing is to not specialize and always have a couple different ship skills so you can adapt to the current patch I actually have other races skills, but man I love my little junkheap of a Tempest. I love the boom the 1400's make.
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Diana Merris
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Posted - 2004.08.12 18:37:00 -
[25]
The problem is not in the Tempest, the problem is projectile weapons.
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Diana Merris
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Posted - 2004.08.12 18:37:00 -
[26]
The problem is not in the Tempest, the problem is projectile weapons.
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reaTh
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Posted - 2004.08.12 18:44:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Diana Merris
The problem is not in the Tempest, the problem is projectile weapons.
dam straight  the temptest is fine i just that all projectile r f00ked espescially 1400s
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reaTh
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Posted - 2004.08.12 18:44:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Diana Merris
The problem is not in the Tempest, the problem is projectile weapons.
dam straight the temptest is fine i just that all projectile r f00ked espescially 1400s
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Sarinas
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Posted - 2004.08.12 18:48:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Sarinas on 12/08/2004 18:50:08
I'm not so sure the problem is with projectiles, actually. Last time I tried a Tempest, I had 6 1400mm guns with carbonized lead and I hit every single time against NPC battleships and cruisers. Well, using two T2 tracking enhancers, but still.
Or is the problem with DOT? 'Cause I remember it kinda sucked, but I assumed this was because I was using carbonized lead and I didn't bother to try another type of ammo. Best shot I got was a wrecking hit at 350-360 something, a couple of times, with two T2 gyros. I must say, though, that my gunnery skills are a bit lacking.
---
I bring you joy,
I bring you pain,
I bring you some sunshine
And some rain. |
Sarinas
|
Posted - 2004.08.12 18:48:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Sarinas on 12/08/2004 18:50:08
I'm not so sure the problem is with projectiles, actually. Last time I tried a Tempest, I had 6 1400mm guns with carbonized lead and I hit every single time against NPC battleships and cruisers. Well, using two T2 tracking enhancers, but still.
Or is the problem with DOT? 'Cause I remember it kinda sucked, but I assumed this was because I was using carbonized lead and I didn't bother to try another type of ammo. Best shot I got was a wrecking hit at 350-360 something, a couple of times, with two T2 gyros. I must say, though, that my gunnery skills are a bit lacking.
---
I bring you joy,
I bring you pain,
I bring you some sunshine
And some rain. |
Ta'krite
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Posted - 2004.08.12 19:05:00 -
[31]
im trying to find a gun to fit on my raven for npc combat, save a bit on the ammo but so far ive tryed hybrid guns, 30-60damage and projectles slightly better at 60-100 damae, these of course are large, so how the hell do i get big damage like you gys i know my gunnery skill aint that great, lv3 large, tracking skill lv4 surgical strike lv4 but im getting more damage from my 720mm medium guns on bs's than my large guns 60-450 hp damage there something not right there thus this means im spending a fourtune on ammo and not sure its worth the effort (was training to use a tempest but might not bother now looking at this thread) im a minmatar and to be honest the tempest is now somewhat of a t1 bs and the phoon is prob the t2 with its cpu and power boost
i cant use laseers yet and not sure the raven has the cap recharge rate to use them anyway so am i going to have to train for a apoc now?
tell me what guns i need to hit anything and still get good damage
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Ta'krite
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Posted - 2004.08.12 19:05:00 -
[32]
im trying to find a gun to fit on my raven for npc combat, save a bit on the ammo but so far ive tryed hybrid guns, 30-60damage and projectles slightly better at 60-100 damae, these of course are large, so how the hell do i get big damage like you gys i know my gunnery skill aint that great, lv3 large, tracking skill lv4 surgical strike lv4 but im getting more damage from my 720mm medium guns on bs's than my large guns 60-450 hp damage there something not right there thus this means im spending a fourtune on ammo and not sure its worth the effort (was training to use a tempest but might not bother now looking at this thread) im a minmatar and to be honest the tempest is now somewhat of a t1 bs and the phoon is prob the t2 with its cpu and power boost
i cant use laseers yet and not sure the raven has the cap recharge rate to use them anyway so am i going to have to train for a apoc now?
tell me what guns i need to hit anything and still get good damage
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Sarinas
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Posted - 2004.08.12 19:09:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Ta'krite
tell me what guns i need to hit anything and still get good damage
Blasterthron.
---
I bring you joy,
I bring you pain,
I bring you some sunshine
And some rain. |
Sarinas
|
Posted - 2004.08.12 19:09:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Ta'krite
tell me what guns i need to hit anything and still get good damage
Blasterthron.
---
I bring you joy,
I bring you pain,
I bring you some sunshine
And some rain. |
Dao 2
|
Posted - 2004.08.12 19:12:00 -
[35]
i dont actually fly a bs so never used a 1400mm, but i think artillery should do the largest damage but have a slower rof of all other weapons (its liek that for the cruiser and frig sized weapons...) a decent trackin maybe but def not as good as some other things. and autocannons should have do much more dmg and have better trackign or something.... but for frigs and cruisers the guns just suck. >< and i dont no about how the tempest is bad, maybe it should be better i dont no havent flown one :D
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Dao 2
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Posted - 2004.08.12 19:12:00 -
[36]
i dont actually fly a bs so never used a 1400mm, but i think artillery should do the largest damage but have a slower rof of all other weapons (its liek that for the cruiser and frig sized weapons...) a decent trackin maybe but def not as good as some other things. and autocannons should have do much more dmg and have better trackign or something.... but for frigs and cruisers the guns just suck. >< and i dont no about how the tempest is bad, maybe it should be better i dont no havent flown one :D
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Shimatu
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Posted - 2004.08.12 19:20:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Teeth
I think one reason they don't really do anything about it it's that they haven't _consciously_ nerfed the Tempest. So they don't see why anything's wrong with it. The problem is that when you have BIG patches that affect lots of things across the board (changes to falloff, changes to tracking, changes to launcher fitting requirements, changes to ship bonuses and powergrid ALL in one patch), stuff is bound to get thrown off balance. Balance is achieved by tuning things little by little.
i think actually (as a more serious answer than my last one, when i'd only just got home from work :P), that the way it basically happened was this:
tempests rocked. we all know this, no real denying it.
so the devs increased the effectiveness of other battleships.
this effectively evened out most of the battleships.
then the tracking changes (and a few others, but i think mainly the tracking) arrived, and people realised that the only reason the temp was so good was that it could fit loads of the biggest gun in the game, with very little problem... but these guns were no longer much good. they're now, tbh, about as good on average as an other BS gun. but the problem is, all the other BSes were improved to compensate for the 1400's being so powerful, while the tempest was left behind.
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
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Shimatu
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Posted - 2004.08.12 19:20:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Teeth
I think one reason they don't really do anything about it it's that they haven't _consciously_ nerfed the Tempest. So they don't see why anything's wrong with it. The problem is that when you have BIG patches that affect lots of things across the board (changes to falloff, changes to tracking, changes to launcher fitting requirements, changes to ship bonuses and powergrid ALL in one patch), stuff is bound to get thrown off balance. Balance is achieved by tuning things little by little.
i think actually (as a more serious answer than my last one, when i'd only just got home from work :P), that the way it basically happened was this:
tempests rocked. we all know this, no real denying it.
so the devs increased the effectiveness of other battleships.
this effectively evened out most of the battleships.
then the tracking changes (and a few others, but i think mainly the tracking) arrived, and people realised that the only reason the temp was so good was that it could fit loads of the biggest gun in the game, with very little problem... but these guns were no longer much good. they're now, tbh, about as good on average as an other BS gun. but the problem is, all the other BSes were improved to compensate for the 1400's being so powerful, while the tempest was left behind.
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
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Sarinas
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Posted - 2004.08.12 19:25:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Dao 2
but for frigs and cruisers the guns just suck. ><
Nah, they're just aligned with the ship class you're flying and the ship class you're fighting against. I'm quite content with my Moa and my Rupture, I must say, as far as cruisers go. Of course I stand no chance against a battleship when I fly those, but they're otherwise great for cruiser-versus-cruiser combat in both PVE and PVP.
---
I bring you joy,
I bring you pain,
I bring you some sunshine
And some rain. |
Sarinas
|
Posted - 2004.08.12 19:25:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Dao 2
but for frigs and cruisers the guns just suck. ><
Nah, they're just aligned with the ship class you're flying and the ship class you're fighting against. I'm quite content with my Moa and my Rupture, I must say, as far as cruisers go. Of course I stand no chance against a battleship when I fly those, but they're otherwise great for cruiser-versus-cruiser combat in both PVE and PVP.
---
I bring you joy,
I bring you pain,
I bring you some sunshine
And some rain. |
Mindecho
|
Posted - 2004.08.12 20:04:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Mindecho on 12/08/2004 20:32:29
To be honest there is nothing wrong with the Tempest. The problem is with large projectiles and the damage they do over time. In order to have a decent chance at hitting anything you have to mount at minimum 2 tracking computers which I think is a bit rediculous. I don't think it's fair to require those 2 slots being taken just to use them; no other gun has that sort of requirement in order to make them effective. I also find I'm required to stay stationary for my guns to do any sort of decent damage which makes me an even better target for the large hybrid and laser users that have better tracking than I do. If CCP wants to nerf tracking on large projectile guns fine, but they need to up the damage the guns do when they connect with their target. This will force your opponents to be on the move, thus if they stop or slow down they get hammered. The best example I can think of is a naval destroyer shooting land based targets on a coast. For a target (reguardless of size) that is slow or stationary it will suffer extreme damage, but if the target is a guy in a jeep that is constantly on the move the guns will likely not hit them until they stop moving or slow down. If that jeep (i.e frigate) got hit by an artilery shell it would be totally destroyed or the driver near death, not drive away with a scratch on the hood. I've tried a lot of different large projectiles for solo NPC hunting and I just can't do enough damage fast enough to survive. My Tempest is currently under a dust cover in my hanger until they address the large projectile issue. The sad reality is I can do better damage with Large lasers on my Tempest even if I don't get the ship RoF/damage bonus. Another thing to note is large projectiles need to be able to hit battleships that are on the move and allow me to move as well...
Mind |
Mindecho
|
Posted - 2004.08.12 20:04:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Mindecho on 12/08/2004 20:32:29
To be honest there is nothing wrong with the Tempest. The problem is with large projectiles and the damage they do over time. In order to have a decent chance at hitting anything you have to mount at minimum 2 tracking computers which I think is a bit rediculous. I don't think it's fair to require those 2 slots being taken just to use them; no other gun has that sort of requirement in order to make them effective. I also find I'm required to stay stationary for my guns to do any sort of decent damage which makes me an even better target for the large hybrid and laser users that have better tracking than I do. If CCP wants to nerf tracking on large projectile guns fine, but they need to up the damage the guns do when they connect with their target. This will force your opponents to be on the move, thus if they stop or slow down they get hammered. The best example I can think of is a naval destroyer shooting land based targets on a coast. For a target (reguardless of size) that is slow or stationary it will suffer extreme damage, but if the target is a guy in a jeep that is constantly on the move the guns will likely not hit them until they stop moving or slow down. If that jeep (i.e frigate) got hit by an artilery shell it would be totally destroyed or the driver near death, not drive away with a scratch on the hood. I've tried a lot of different large projectiles for solo NPC hunting and I just can't do enough damage fast enough to survive. My Tempest is currently under a dust cover in my hanger until they address the large projectile issue. The sad reality is I can do better damage with Large lasers on my Tempest even if I don't get the ship RoF/damage bonus. Another thing to note is large projectiles need to be able to hit battleships that are on the move and allow me to move as well...
Mind |
darth solo
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Posted - 2004.08.12 20:21:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Jennae
God. whats up with all these 1400's users. Am I the only one using a tempest for close range?
Anyway, I think close range A/C's need a looking at also. My current setup is either 6x800mm with missiles, or 3x800 and 3xd650s and 2 nosferatus. -(mostly gallium 800s)-
Either way, I challenged a friend in an armor tanked Armageddon, and I CANNOT kill him. We did a trial where he did nothing but run his single repairer and hardeners (exp, kin, therm), and I just pounded away at him. I used over 1000 EMP ammo and 50 cruise missiles, and didnt get him below 50%. Everytime I started to make a little bit of progress, I had to reload, and his repairer caught back up. Imagine if he was running a pair of repairers like most PvP ships do, there would be NO way I could even touch that.
When we go at it full on, I need a pair of repairers just to soak up the dmg that his megapulses dish out, and still barely cope. This doesn't seem balanced too me. I'm not gunna sit here and bash, I just don't see how this can be right, for a T2 battleship loaded for max DOT to not be able to finish off a T1 BS with only a single repairer.
Does anyone else have this problem with close range autocannons?
-My skills are Min BS 3, lrg Prj turret 4, and all other gunnery skills to 3 or 4. I know my skills aren't maxed, but I don't think a couple 5% or 3%'s are gunna make TOO big of a difference in this situation. I'm also always running a gyro II, and the rest of lows used on tanking.
Thanks,
jenn
interesting points, as i have said in posts before like this... i have all skills bar 1 at lvl 5 for the tempest, skill wise i shouldnt have a prob, i also like to use 800s when i can..
U CAN take on another BS 1v1 and win. but dont even think about it unless u have 10 mill skill+.. most in minnie.
d solo.
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darth solo
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Posted - 2004.08.12 20:21:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Jennae
God. whats up with all these 1400's users. Am I the only one using a tempest for close range?
Anyway, I think close range A/C's need a looking at also. My current setup is either 6x800mm with missiles, or 3x800 and 3xd650s and 2 nosferatus. -(mostly gallium 800s)-
Either way, I challenged a friend in an armor tanked Armageddon, and I CANNOT kill him. We did a trial where he did nothing but run his single repairer and hardeners (exp, kin, therm), and I just pounded away at him. I used over 1000 EMP ammo and 50 cruise missiles, and didnt get him below 50%. Everytime I started to make a little bit of progress, I had to reload, and his repairer caught back up. Imagine if he was running a pair of repairers like most PvP ships do, there would be NO way I could even touch that.
When we go at it full on, I need a pair of repairers just to soak up the dmg that his megapulses dish out, and still barely cope. This doesn't seem balanced too me. I'm not gunna sit here and bash, I just don't see how this can be right, for a T2 battleship loaded for max DOT to not be able to finish off a T1 BS with only a single repairer.
Does anyone else have this problem with close range autocannons?
-My skills are Min BS 3, lrg Prj turret 4, and all other gunnery skills to 3 or 4. I know my skills aren't maxed, but I don't think a couple 5% or 3%'s are gunna make TOO big of a difference in this situation. I'm also always running a gyro II, and the rest of lows used on tanking.
Thanks,
jenn
interesting points, as i have said in posts before like this... i have all skills bar 1 at lvl 5 for the tempest, skill wise i shouldnt have a prob, i also like to use 800s when i can..
U CAN take on another BS 1v1 and win. but dont even think about it unless u have 10 mill skill+.. most in minnie.
d solo.
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Harry Voyager
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Posted - 2004.08.12 20:42:00 -
[45]
I have had similare experiences to the one posted earlier. A corpmate and I were testing out his armour tanked Armaghedon. I was using 6x1400mm's with Proton ammo and 2xTracking enhancers and an assortment of damage mods.
I never got him below 90% armour, and he was only running one armour rep.
Now I've picked up an Arma myself, and the difference is night and day. Frankly, I don't think I'll be going back to the Tempest for a long time, unless something fairly drastic happens to it.
Harry Voyager
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Harry Voyager
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Posted - 2004.08.12 20:42:00 -
[46]
I have had similare experiences to the one posted earlier. A corpmate and I were testing out his armour tanked Armaghedon. I was using 6x1400mm's with Proton ammo and 2xTracking enhancers and an assortment of damage mods.
I never got him below 90% armour, and he was only running one armour rep.
Now I've picked up an Arma myself, and the difference is night and day. Frankly, I don't think I'll be going back to the Tempest for a long time, unless something fairly drastic happens to it.
Harry Voyager
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Presidio
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Posted - 2004.08.12 20:43:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Presidio on 12/08/2004 20:54:13
The problem is that people spent months of skill training to fly a tempest effectivelly, to compensate for the worse DoT Tempest always had.
Tempest used to be a great tanker. And even with worse DoT wich with good skills wasn't that bad, it was a deadly ship.
Projectiled did alot of instant damage which is what prompted all the n00bs to complain about how their tempest flying corp mates score over 1000 damage hits, without really thinking about a 23 second reload of 1400mms howies.
3 things happened to make a Tempest not worthy of a battleship status.
1.) 1400s accuracy fallof nerf cut their DoT in half.
2.) Missile louncher changed. Heavy missile lounchers can no longer fire cruise missiles.(malkuth's used to be popular for their low CPU reqs.) Cruise missile lounchers got introduced but have less DoT.
3.) Cap power relays can no longer be used for shield tanking. PDUs use more CPU and using XL Shield booster is no longer a viable solution for Tempest.
So per average Tempest lost about 50% of DoT and 40% of tanking ability.
Pretty much all other race ships got improved, Caldari get more DoT (new uber torpedos), Amarr and Galente (Mega) got more DoT (ammo changes) and better armor tanking.
No ammount of skillpoints can compensate for the crappyness of Tempests.
The way it is now. To make a Tempest comparable to other race battleships projectiles would have to get insane damage output since the tempest can no longer tank.
Long term issue for builders. Pretty soon demand for Tempest will go down. Tempest has no real purpose in the game anymore. It is not good for PvP, NPC farming or mining. All those that invested their money in Tempest BP will be hurt by this.
ps. armor tanking is still an option but why armor tank a Tempest when Mega, Armageddon and Apoc will always be better at it, and they all do atleast twice as much damage?
Advice for all minmatar people planning to train Minmatar battleship skill. Save yourself time and frustration by training a different race battleship.
-
"Passivity is fatal to us. Our goal is to make the enemy passive."
Mao Tse-tung
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Presidio
|
Posted - 2004.08.12 20:43:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Presidio on 12/08/2004 20:54:13
The problem is that people spent months of skill training to fly a tempest effectivelly, to compensate for the worse DoT Tempest always had.
Tempest used to be a great tanker. And even with worse DoT wich with good skills wasn't that bad, it was a deadly ship.
Projectiled did alot of instant damage which is what prompted all the n00bs to complain about how their tempest flying corp mates score over 1000 damage hits, without really thinking about a 23 second reload of 1400mms howies.
3 things happened to make a Tempest not worthy of a battleship status.
1.) 1400s accuracy fallof nerf cut their DoT in half.
2.) Missile louncher changed. Heavy missile lounchers can no longer fire cruise missiles.(malkuth's used to be popular for their low CPU reqs.) Cruise missile lounchers got introduced but have less DoT.
3.) Cap power relays can no longer be used for shield tanking. PDUs use more CPU and using XL Shield booster is no longer a viable solution for Tempest.
So per average Tempest lost about 50% of DoT and 40% of tanking ability.
Pretty much all other race ships got improved, Caldari get more DoT (new uber torpedos), Amarr and Galente (Mega) got more DoT (ammo changes) and better armor tanking.
No ammount of skillpoints can compensate for the crappyness of Tempests.
The way it is now. To make a Tempest comparable to other race battleships projectiles would have to get insane damage output since the tempest can no longer tank.
Long term issue for builders. Pretty soon demand for Tempest will go down. Tempest has no real purpose in the game anymore. It is not good for PvP, NPC farming or mining. All those that invested their money in Tempest BP will be hurt by this.
ps. armor tanking is still an option but why armor tank a Tempest when Mega, Armageddon and Apoc will always be better at it, and they all do atleast twice as much damage?
Advice for all minmatar people planning to train Minmatar battleship skill. Save yourself time and frustration by training a different race battleship.
-
"Passivity is fatal to us. Our goal is to make the enemy passive."
Mao Tse-tung
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.08.12 21:40:00 -
[49]
or you culd altter projektile ammo
chek the link in my siggy
-------------------------------------------
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.08.12 21:40:00 -
[50]
or you culd altter projektile ammo
chek the link in my siggy
-------------------------------------------
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.08.12 21:46:00 -
[51]
Even though I don't fly one, I must agree - Tempest pilots have been sorely shafted. Their weapons are mostly inept, and I can only empathize with the exodus away from Minmatar ships overall.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.08.12 21:46:00 -
[52]
Even though I don't fly one, I must agree - Tempest pilots have been sorely shafted. Their weapons are mostly inept, and I can only empathize with the exodus away from Minmatar ships overall.
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Valentine Keen
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Posted - 2004.08.12 22:48:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Sarinas
Edited by: Sarinas on 12/08/2004 18:50:08
I'm not so sure the problem is with projectiles, actually. Last time I tried a Tempest, I had 6 1400mm guns with carbonized lead and I hit every single time against NPC battleships and cruisers. Well, using two T2 tracking enhancers, but still.
There in lies the issue - other guns don't have to use 2 Tech 2 tracking fittings just to hit the broadside of a barn!
By all means, balance DoT, cap usage and range, but please let us loyal Minmatar at least hit something.
Until then, I'll just be one more Minmatar pilot buying Laser and Amarr skills and mothballing my Tempest and Typhoon.
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Valentine Keen
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Posted - 2004.08.12 22:48:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Sarinas
Edited by: Sarinas on 12/08/2004 18:50:08
I'm not so sure the problem is with projectiles, actually. Last time I tried a Tempest, I had 6 1400mm guns with carbonized lead and I hit every single time against NPC battleships and cruisers. Well, using two T2 tracking enhancers, but still.
There in lies the issue - other guns don't have to use 2 Tech 2 tracking fittings just to hit the broadside of a barn!
By all means, balance DoT, cap usage and range, but please let us loyal Minmatar at least hit something.
Until then, I'll just be one more Minmatar pilot buying Laser and Amarr skills and mothballing my Tempest and Typhoon.
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Runefinger
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Posted - 2004.08.12 22:53:00 -
[55]
I kinda want them to fix the grapics bugs i get when i look at a tempest first... :(
got lvl 5 minmatar battleship skill and i can't fly it because looking at it makes my game lag like hell...
worse thing is in any fleet battle there bount to be 1 or 2 tempests.... (getting less doh.... one good side about them being crappy  )
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Runefinger
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Posted - 2004.08.12 22:53:00 -
[56]
I kinda want them to fix the grapics bugs i get when i look at a tempest first... :(
got lvl 5 minmatar battleship skill and i can't fly it because looking at it makes my game lag like hell...
worse thing is in any fleet battle there bount to be 1 or 2 tempests.... (getting less doh.... one good side about them being crappy )
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Claymor
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Posted - 2004.08.12 22:57:00 -
[57]
Like many other Min pilots, the tempest doesnt have what it needs to be a T2 bs anymore. My ship will be going into mothballs soon, pity really.
Oh and like many other posts i have read on the tempest subject, i very much doubt that there will be any reply to this from any dev.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1/4/04 Your 1400mm Howitzer Critically Misses Side of Barn for 0 Damage
----------------------------------------------------- |
Claymor
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Posted - 2004.08.12 22:57:00 -
[58]
Like many other Min pilots, the tempest doesnt have what it needs to be a T2 bs anymore. My ship will be going into mothballs soon, pity really.
Oh and like many other posts i have read on the tempest subject, i very much doubt that there will be any reply to this from any dev.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1/4/04 Your 1400mm Howitzer Critically Misses Side of Barn for 0 Damage
----------------------------------------------------- |
Mortuus
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Posted - 2004.08.12 23:20:00 -
[59]
I have to agree. I sold off my tempest after trying all sorts of setups trying to squeeze the most out of it. Bought a Geddon, this ship is far and away the better vessel, at much less cost.
What, I can run 7 Megapulse and armor tank nearly forever against any other BS?
Its not the 1400's either, all large projectiles suffer from a low accuracy problem. If you could rely on them to hit consistantly they might work.
Medium projectiles however are working fine as far as I can tell, 100% accuracy at optimal range vs other cruisers. My 720's are hitting for nearly 200 on my Rupture. 650's on my Stabber work great too though I don't think the speed bonus was enough to make it a viable choice for serious combat.
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Mortuus
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Posted - 2004.08.12 23:20:00 -
[60]
I have to agree. I sold off my tempest after trying all sorts of setups trying to squeeze the most out of it. Bought a Geddon, this ship is far and away the better vessel, at much less cost.
What, I can run 7 Megapulse and armor tank nearly forever against any other BS?
Its not the 1400's either, all large projectiles suffer from a low accuracy problem. If you could rely on them to hit consistantly they might work.
Medium projectiles however are working fine as far as I can tell, 100% accuracy at optimal range vs other cruisers. My 720's are hitting for nearly 200 on my Rupture. 650's on my Stabber work great too though I don't think the speed bonus was enough to make it a viable choice for serious combat.
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Dao 2
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Posted - 2004.08.12 23:45:00 -
[61]
with 425 auto on a cruiser i did the same amount of dmg of frig rails!
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Dao 2
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Posted - 2004.08.12 23:45:00 -
[62]
with 425 auto on a cruiser i did the same amount of dmg of frig rails!
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Selim
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Posted - 2004.08.13 00:03:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Selim on 13/08/2004 00:11:23
I'm not even minmatar and I think all projectiles need a tracking boost, and autocannons need quicker rate of fire.
I mean the Tempest is... ok but its still not good because its guns cant hit anything! and when they do its for poor damage because of the poor tracking. I'm not talking at 10km, I'm talking at very high range. Plus it cant tank very well. Its 'fast' you say? Well it doesnt really make much difference on a battleship.
But again, its the GUNS that need some serious improvement. There IS something wrong with the things. They cant even hit a battleship for cripes sake. They need better tracking, and quicker rate of fire. Across the board. Anything that will bring both the base damage over time equal to hybrids and lasers, AND make them track better so they can kill something.
Dont tell me that they 'dont use cap'. Lets see... Tempest has the lowest capacitor of all tier 2 battleships, so its canceled out. Lets see again. Lasers on an Apoc/Geddon use f*ck all cap because of the bonuses + the 'controlled bursts skill'. Hybrids also use f*ck all with that skill. Both Gallente and Amarr ships have superior capacitor batteries as well. The Caldari missiles dont use cap at all, and they can vary their damage type completely, without sacraficing total damage or range. Nobody's complaining about the caldari right now, they're fine.
And lastly - the controlled bursts skill is unbalanced. It benefits hybrids and lasers, but not projectiles. Dont say 'dont train it', because thats silly, its a couple weeks training to get from level 1 to level 5 which is nothing. It takes already superior guns and makes them even easier to use, compared to the projectiles.
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Selim
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Posted - 2004.08.13 00:03:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Selim on 13/08/2004 00:11:23
I'm not even minmatar and I think all projectiles need a tracking boost, and autocannons need quicker rate of fire.
I mean the Tempest is... ok but its still not good because its guns cant hit anything! and when they do its for poor damage because of the poor tracking. I'm not talking at 10km, I'm talking at very high range. Plus it cant tank very well. Its 'fast' you say? Well it doesnt really make much difference on a battleship.
But again, its the GUNS that need some serious improvement. There IS something wrong with the things. They cant even hit a battleship for cripes sake. They need better tracking, and quicker rate of fire. Across the board. Anything that will bring both the base damage over time equal to hybrids and lasers, AND make them track better so they can kill something.
Dont tell me that they 'dont use cap'. Lets see... Tempest has the lowest capacitor of all tier 2 battleships, so its canceled out. Lets see again. Lasers on an Apoc/Geddon use f*ck all cap because of the bonuses + the 'controlled bursts skill'. Hybrids also use f*ck all with that skill. Both Gallente and Amarr ships have superior capacitor batteries as well. The Caldari missiles dont use cap at all, and they can vary their damage type completely, without sacraficing total damage or range. Nobody's complaining about the caldari right now, they're fine.
And lastly - the controlled bursts skill is unbalanced. It benefits hybrids and lasers, but not projectiles. Dont say 'dont train it', because thats silly, its a couple weeks training to get from level 1 to level 5 which is nothing. It takes already superior guns and makes them even easier to use, compared to the projectiles.
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Lysender
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Posted - 2004.08.13 01:28:00 -
[65]
Quote:
hey look! over here! more tempest users whining that theyre ship isnt the best anymore!
I don't fly a Tempest, I pilot the Megathron or an Appoc. My concerns are to make everyone happy with what ship they trained for. Try to keep your comments constructive. 
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Lysender
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Posted - 2004.08.13 01:28:00 -
[66]
Quote:
hey look! over here! more tempest users whining that theyre ship isnt the best anymore!
I don't fly a Tempest, I pilot the Megathron or an Appoc. My concerns are to make everyone happy with what ship they trained for. Try to keep your comments constructive.
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Grut
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Posted - 2004.08.13 02:00:00 -
[67]
IMO tempests suffer from two things, the cap relay nerf hurt their ability to shield tank far more then ravens due to their low cpu.
Tracking changes mean the dot on 1400's is terrible listening to one of my corpmates trying to kill a 500k bs rat a few weeks back was painful he was having trouble getting past its repairs, i didnt even notice it had repairs when spawing in an apoc.
To fix this you need 2 things
1. Cap relays denerfed, replace - shield boost with a stacking nerf and higher requirements.
2. Boost projectiles either tracking needs to be increased or dmg needs to be jacked up so when you get in the sweet spot you can really feel it.
Mostly harmless |
Grut
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 02:00:00 -
[68]
IMO tempests suffer from two things, the cap relay nerf hurt their ability to shield tank far more then ravens due to their low cpu.
Tracking changes mean the dot on 1400's is terrible listening to one of my corpmates trying to kill a 500k bs rat a few weeks back was painful he was having trouble getting past its repairs, i didnt even notice it had repairs when spawing in an apoc.
To fix this you need 2 things
1. Cap relays denerfed, replace - shield boost with a stacking nerf and higher requirements.
2. Boost projectiles either tracking needs to be increased or dmg needs to be jacked up so when you get in the sweet spot you can really feel it.
Mostly harmless |
Dylan
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Posted - 2004.08.13 02:14:00 -
[69]
Im also a Tempest flyer and find it not the best BS at all, I too use 800mm ove r1400mm after the tracking nerf, my 800mm are better but I still lack in dot.
I recently bought myself a raven and found the dmg is much better and the armor tank is MUCH stronger...
fix proj PLZ...
If Jack helped you off a horse, would you help Jack off a horse?!?!?! o.0 |
Dylan
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Posted - 2004.08.13 02:14:00 -
[70]
Im also a Tempest flyer and find it not the best BS at all, I too use 800mm ove r1400mm after the tracking nerf, my 800mm are better but I still lack in dot.
I recently bought myself a raven and found the dmg is much better and the armor tank is MUCH stronger...
fix proj PLZ...
If Jack helped you off a horse, would you help Jack off a horse?!?!?! o.0 |
G8torSkull
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Posted - 2004.08.13 02:47:00 -
[71]
i decided to change gun setups for giggles today and piad for 5 dual 425mm ac's. put them on tempest went to do lvl 3 missions vs sanshas. i warped in at 15km locked the underlord and moved in. optimal range for this gun is 3500m i think with the amo i had loaded. i crank em up at 10km and start orbiting to optimum range. out of 5 guns going i hit the underlord one time for 40.3 points out of 500 shots and i had even moved back to 10km cause i thought i may be to close at optimum. now tell me that there aint something totally wrong with projectiles
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G8torSkull
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Posted - 2004.08.13 02:47:00 -
[72]
i decided to change gun setups for giggles today and piad for 5 dual 425mm ac's. put them on tempest went to do lvl 3 missions vs sanshas. i warped in at 15km locked the underlord and moved in. optimal range for this gun is 3500m i think with the amo i had loaded. i crank em up at 10km and start orbiting to optimum range. out of 5 guns going i hit the underlord one time for 40.3 points out of 500 shots and i had even moved back to 10km cause i thought i may be to close at optimum. now tell me that there aint something totally wrong with projectiles
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Veneth
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Posted - 2004.08.13 03:44:00 -
[73]
Striking along what many others have said. It's true the problem doesn't really fall with the tempest though it's weird assignment of mediums and lows makes it hard to tank anywhich way but with projectiles
i have:
Large Projectile 4
Surgical strike 4
Rapid firing 5
Motion prediction 5
The uber long rate of fire projectiles suffer coupled with the worst tracking and lowest ammo holdings means this guns just plan suck.
Seriously who cares if a 1400 only takes 3 power to fire when the gun does nothing??
After the patch i switched to 1200s I still can't hit to well and when I do it's for a measley 150-200 damage, and I'm still waiting 10 or so seconds a shot
The only gun that seems to work is the Dual 425 and even then your not going to kill anything with cruisers with this gun.
We're not asking for the best guns in the game, but Damn.. seriously do they have to be worse than any cruiser sized laser? I can kill stuff in a Maller faster than I can from my Tempest.
I sunk months and months in trianing to make my Tempest good, now it sucks
I spent ONE WEEK. 1.. yes OOOOOOOOONNNNNNEEE week to use a APoc and OMG the thing kicks more A$$ than I ever could from the Temp. I only have BS 2, large lasers 3 and controlled burst 2 or 3 (don't rember atm) and I can shred Cruisers and other battleships with relative ease
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Veneth
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Posted - 2004.08.13 03:44:00 -
[74]
Striking along what many others have said. It's true the problem doesn't really fall with the tempest though it's weird assignment of mediums and lows makes it hard to tank anywhich way but with projectiles
i have:
Large Projectile 4
Surgical strike 4
Rapid firing 5
Motion prediction 5
The uber long rate of fire projectiles suffer coupled with the worst tracking and lowest ammo holdings means this guns just plan suck.
Seriously who cares if a 1400 only takes 3 power to fire when the gun does nothing??
After the patch i switched to 1200s I still can't hit to well and when I do it's for a measley 150-200 damage, and I'm still waiting 10 or so seconds a shot
The only gun that seems to work is the Dual 425 and even then your not going to kill anything with cruisers with this gun.
We're not asking for the best guns in the game, but Damn.. seriously do they have to be worse than any cruiser sized laser? I can kill stuff in a Maller faster than I can from my Tempest.
I sunk months and months in trianing to make my Tempest good, now it sucks
I spent ONE WEEK. 1.. yes OOOOOOOOONNNNNNEEE week to use a APoc and OMG the thing kicks more A$$ than I ever could from the Temp. I only have BS 2, large lasers 3 and controlled burst 2 or 3 (don't rember atm) and I can shred Cruisers and other battleships with relative ease
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Nieda
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Posted - 2004.08.13 07:15:00 -
[75]
How about we contact a CSM person so he can ask about our problems on the next chat with devs ? Its not that we are going to get any answers here.
---------------------------------------------
2004.08.12 14:50:32combatYour 720mm Carbine Howitzer I perfectly strikes Guristas Destructor, wrecking for 543.9 damage. |
Nieda
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 07:15:00 -
[76]
How about we contact a CSM person so he can ask about our problems on the next chat with devs ? Its not that we are going to get any answers here.
---------------------------------------------
2004.08.12 14:50:32combatYour 720mm Carbine Howitzer I perfectly strikes Guristas Destructor, wrecking for 543.9 damage. |
Mistress Zhantine
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Posted - 2004.08.13 08:24:00 -
[77]
Yep, i'm in exactly the same position... spent months training nothing but min and projectiles so i could be truly effective in my tempest... then the nerf... i just spent about 7 days training up so i could use and Apoc and personally i'm disgusted... even dual heavy pulse do better DoT than 1400', 1200's or 800's...
I just fail to see any balance at all... I remember when i started training for the temp, everyone said it was by far the most skill intensive BS and they were'nt wrong, but as far as i can tell this dedication to one ship seems to have gone largely un-noticed by the devs.
You see what power is... Holding someone elses fear in your hand and showing it to them...
2004.07.28 21:21:45combatYour 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I perfectly strikes Guristas Mortifier, wrecking for 916.3 damage. |
Mistress Zhantine
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 08:24:00 -
[78]
Yep, i'm in exactly the same position... spent months training nothing but min and projectiles so i could be truly effective in my tempest... then the nerf... i just spent about 7 days training up so i could use and Apoc and personally i'm disgusted... even dual heavy pulse do better DoT than 1400', 1200's or 800's...
I just fail to see any balance at all... I remember when i started training for the temp, everyone said it was by far the most skill intensive BS and they were'nt wrong, but as far as i can tell this dedication to one ship seems to have gone largely un-noticed by the devs.
You see what power is... Holding someone elses fear in your hand and showing it to them...
2004.07.28 21:21:45combatYour 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I perfectly strikes Guristas Mortifier, wrecking for 916.3 damage. |
D'Artagnan
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 09:35:00 -
[79]
I myself am a tempest pilot with battleship lvl 5 and all other related skills at 4 or 5 and i have to say what has happened to the tempest has really made me sad. 1400mm suck now big time i refuse to even let them near my ship. The only way to tank it at all well is to go with armour tanking but this is hard due to the low base cap on a tempest.
800mm the dot is pretty low now as well.
There is no area where the tempest is even good at except maybe speed but this only adds to the tracking problems that are related to the 1400mm and it is not really a bonus anyway i mean come in i can go 20 m/s faster than you OHHHHHH big deal every 50 secs i will travel a KM more than you GREAT.
My tempest is very close to being put in the bin as it is just a worth pile of scrap metal atm.
My account will now be pretty much worthless as 6 mill of my 11 mill skill points were directed towards flying a tempest. This really makes me mad as i love this game but there is no point in having a character that is worthless after all it is costing me úúúú a month and i do not like wasting mone on worthless things so i guess this account will dissapear soon if things are sorted out
|
D'Artagnan
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 09:35:00 -
[80]
I myself am a tempest pilot with battleship lvl 5 and all other related skills at 4 or 5 and i have to say what has happened to the tempest has really made me sad. 1400mm suck now big time i refuse to even let them near my ship. The only way to tank it at all well is to go with armour tanking but this is hard due to the low base cap on a tempest.
800mm the dot is pretty low now as well.
There is no area where the tempest is even good at except maybe speed but this only adds to the tracking problems that are related to the 1400mm and it is not really a bonus anyway i mean come in i can go 20 m/s faster than you OHHHHHH big deal every 50 secs i will travel a KM more than you GREAT.
My tempest is very close to being put in the bin as it is just a worth pile of scrap metal atm.
My account will now be pretty much worthless as 6 mill of my 11 mill skill points were directed towards flying a tempest. This really makes me mad as i love this game but there is no point in having a character that is worthless after all it is costing me úúúú a month and i do not like wasting mone on worthless things so i guess this account will dissapear soon if things are sorted out
|
Kalarin
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 11:14:00 -
[81]
I don't understand CCP. Level 2 BS - it's a top of line of ships. It MUST be completely tested after any big changes in the game, but as we can see from the current state with Tempest (useless BS level 2) - seems likes as no testing at all or may be only quick testing on stationary targets at optimal range. And no changes after 2-3 patches (or may me continuous nerfing the ship). 
|
Kalarin
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 11:14:00 -
[82]
I don't understand CCP. Level 2 BS - it's a top of line of ships. It MUST be completely tested after any big changes in the game, but as we can see from the current state with Tempest (useless BS level 2) - seems likes as no testing at all or may be only quick testing on stationary targets at optimal range. And no changes after 2-3 patches (or may me continuous nerfing the ship).
|
Imhotep Khem
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 11:32:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 13/08/2004 11:34:04
I would have though minmatar would be into close combat with the speed and all.
I dont have a BS cause its hell to make that much money. But my 720mm howitzers equally suck. I still use them cause i got nothing better for the slots. But they hit every now and then for some extra damage. Im really killing with my 3 heavy launchers. If this situation extends to the tempest, then when i get the cash, probably I should not buy a tempest. Hell, it don't mine much better than a Thorax...
AND YES, controlled bursts is probably the biggest imbalance to projectile weapons around. Where is our skill to improve our guns specifically?
P.S. Isin't the Tempest a level 2 BS and not a tech 2 BS?
____
If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Imhotep Khem
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 11:32:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 13/08/2004 11:34:04
I would have though minmatar would be into close combat with the speed and all.
I dont have a BS cause its hell to make that much money. But my 720mm howitzers equally suck. I still use them cause i got nothing better for the slots. But they hit every now and then for some extra damage. Im really killing with my 3 heavy launchers. If this situation extends to the tempest, then when i get the cash, probably I should not buy a tempest. Hell, it don't mine much better than a Thorax...
AND YES, controlled bursts is probably the biggest imbalance to projectile weapons around. Where is our skill to improve our guns specifically?
P.S. Isin't the Tempest a level 2 BS and not a tech 2 BS?
____
If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Shade Widow
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 11:39:00 -
[85]
Im not sure how you guys are getting such bad lucky. If I fight a npc spawn of cruisers and frigs my 720s have no trouble for hitting in the high damage range. This is with (no) tracking computer....
---
|
Shade Widow
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 11:39:00 -
[86]
Im not sure how you guys are getting such bad lucky. If I fight a npc spawn of cruisers and frigs my 720s have no trouble for hitting in the high damage range. This is with (no) tracking computer....
---
|
BlackPlague
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:02:00 -
[87]
Agree with the original poster.
Tempest - Projectile needs attention NOW. The poor dmg, tracking, loadout, etc is explained well through out these posts.
Further evidence can be seen on the market. BPC's of tempests are showing up regularly for 3.5M. Everyone is mothballing them. The only way to "adapt" is train for another race BS. Sucks when you have put the time into MimBS 5....
Come on CCP.... quit ignoring the obvious!
My Siggie Scares Seleene... Boo! |
BlackPlague
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:02:00 -
[88]
Agree with the original poster.
Tempest - Projectile needs attention NOW. The poor dmg, tracking, loadout, etc is explained well through out these posts.
Further evidence can be seen on the market. BPC's of tempests are showing up regularly for 3.5M. Everyone is mothballing them. The only way to "adapt" is train for another race BS. Sucks when you have put the time into MimBS 5....
Come on CCP.... quit ignoring the obvious!
My Siggie Scares Seleene... Boo! |
Shade Widow
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:05:00 -
[89]
Sell me your tempests for super cheap and ill put them to good use if you wont.
---
|
Shade Widow
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:05:00 -
[90]
Sell me your tempests for super cheap and ill put them to good use if you wont.
---
|
Vordicae
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:16:00 -
[91]
DAMMIT DAMMIT DAMMIT !
I spend god only knows how long maxing my PRojectile and piloting and engineering and other skills Needed to Fly the Tempest.. I have the BPC and the minerals in my hangar today .. do I bould it and hope the devs pay attention to this thread or spend all the rest of my time training a new race for which I don't get specific modifiers :(
Damn you to hell !
-----------------------------------------------------
In space .. no-one can hear you munching crisps
in the back seat of your Hauler !
-----------------------------------------------------
Show me the money |
Vordicae
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:16:00 -
[92]
DAMMIT DAMMIT DAMMIT !
I spend god only knows how long maxing my PRojectile and piloting and engineering and other skills Needed to Fly the Tempest.. I have the BPC and the minerals in my hangar today .. do I bould it and hope the devs pay attention to this thread or spend all the rest of my time training a new race for which I don't get specific modifiers :(
Damn you to hell !
-----------------------------------------------------
In space .. no-one can hear you munching crisps
in the back seat of your Hauler !
-----------------------------------------------------
Show me the money |
Shade Widow
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:18:00 -
[93]
The guns on the tempest work I dont know what you are all doing wrong here? Are you shooting to close to far? Give me your tempests I was able to do good with one before dont see why not now.
---
|
Shade Widow
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:18:00 -
[94]
The guns on the tempest work I dont know what you are all doing wrong here? Are you shooting to close to far? Give me your tempests I was able to do good with one before dont see why not now.
---
|
Rob Mattacks
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:23:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Rob Mattacks on 13/08/2004 12:25:57
Originally by: Shade Widow
Im not sure how you guys are getting such bad lucky. If I fight a npc spawn of cruisers and frigs my 720s have no trouble for hitting in the high damage range. This is with (no) tracking computer....
This thread is about the Tempest and BS's, 720mm' are cruiser guns. Anyway i too am frustrated at the current state of the Minmatar's capital ship. I am holding out atm cos i really wanna fly Minmatar ships and role-play but i have been pondering whether to train gallente/hybrid as overall their ships from interceptors through to bs seem much more useful.
I also own a Typhoon and think that ship has been shafted with the recent patches. The performance of projectiles is one reason. The other is that it was given a grid boost but it doesn't compensate for the increase in grid for armor repairers and siege launchers. I used to able to run a 4x800mm 4 heavy launchers w/torps and 2 large armor repairers. Doing this now is impossible without gimping set up and even using dual 425mm's i still need an rcu and downgrading to cruise launchers is not an option i feel cos of the terrible ROF. When throw in a mwd and heavy cap booster it gets worse so basically the typhoon has taken a fitting nerf big time for close range armor tanking and long range armor tanking you can forget about really
|
Rob Mattacks
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:23:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Rob Mattacks on 13/08/2004 12:25:57
Originally by: Shade Widow
Im not sure how you guys are getting such bad lucky. If I fight a npc spawn of cruisers and frigs my 720s have no trouble for hitting in the high damage range. This is with (no) tracking computer....
This thread is about the Tempest and BS's, 720mm' are cruiser guns. Anyway i too am frustrated at the current state of the Minmatar's capital ship. I am holding out atm cos i really wanna fly Minmatar ships and role-play but i have been pondering whether to train gallente/hybrid as overall their ships from interceptors through to bs seem much more useful.
I also own a Typhoon and think that ship has been shafted with the recent patches. The performance of projectiles is one reason. The other is that it was given a grid boost but it doesn't compensate for the increase in grid for armor repairers and siege launchers. I used to able to run a 4x800mm 4 heavy launchers w/torps and 2 large armor repairers. Doing this now is impossible without gimping set up and even using dual 425mm's i still need an rcu and downgrading to cruise launchers is not an option i feel cos of the terrible ROF. When throw in a mwd and heavy cap booster it gets worse so basically the typhoon has taken a fitting nerf big time for close range armor tanking and long range armor tanking you can forget about really
|
Shade Widow
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:28:00 -
[97]
Well first thing 1400s werent designed to hit frigs and have trouble hitting cruisers. However if you seem to not be able to hit battleships at all? Then you must be doing something wrong ive used 1400s and its not like they cant hit a gigantic house moving towards you as long as your in the (right) range.
---
|
Shade Widow
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:28:00 -
[98]
Well first thing 1400s werent designed to hit frigs and have trouble hitting cruisers. However if you seem to not be able to hit battleships at all? Then you must be doing something wrong ive used 1400s and its not like they cant hit a gigantic house moving towards you as long as your in the (right) range.
---
|
Sarinas
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:33:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Shade Widow
Well first thing 1400s werent designed to hit frigs and have trouble hitting cruisers. However if you seem to not be able to hit battleships at all? Then you must be doing something wrong ive used 1400s and its not like they cant hit a gigantic house moving towards you as long as your in the (right) range.
When they hit, the damage sucks. So you use more powerful ammo but your optimal range is reduced, more than likely putting you within range of your target. So you start taking hits -- your damage, while somewhat better, still sucks, and you have trouble tanking, so you get taken down and die.
Note that this is a somewhat exaggerated scenario but I feel it basically comes down to this.
---
I bring you joy,
I bring you pain,
I bring you some sunshine
And some rain. |
Sarinas
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:33:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Shade Widow
Well first thing 1400s werent designed to hit frigs and have trouble hitting cruisers. However if you seem to not be able to hit battleships at all? Then you must be doing something wrong ive used 1400s and its not like they cant hit a gigantic house moving towards you as long as your in the (right) range.
When they hit, the damage sucks. So you use more powerful ammo but your optimal range is reduced, more than likely putting you within range of your target. So you start taking hits -- your damage, while somewhat better, still sucks, and you have trouble tanking, so you get taken down and die.
Note that this is a somewhat exaggerated scenario but I feel it basically comes down to this.
---
I bring you joy,
I bring you pain,
I bring you some sunshine
And some rain. |
Rob Mattacks
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:39:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Shade Widow
Well first thing 1400s werent designed to hit frigs and have trouble hitting cruisers. However if you seem to not be able to hit battleships at all? Then you must be doing something wrong ive used 1400s and its not like they cant hit a gigantic house moving towards you as long as your in the (right) range.
yes i know that but i was not talking about hitting frigs and cruisers. The 1400's hit other battleships but not as well as they used to tracking wise,the falloff has been nerfed, damage and wrecking shots has sunk, they are alot worse than they used to be sub 30km, other ships have been boosted, missile DOT has dropped, cap relays been nerfed and now much tighter for cpu with long range set up.
|
Rob Mattacks
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:39:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Shade Widow
Well first thing 1400s werent designed to hit frigs and have trouble hitting cruisers. However if you seem to not be able to hit battleships at all? Then you must be doing something wrong ive used 1400s and its not like they cant hit a gigantic house moving towards you as long as your in the (right) range.
yes i know that but i was not talking about hitting frigs and cruisers. The 1400's hit other battleships but not as well as they used to tracking wise,the falloff has been nerfed, damage and wrecking shots has sunk, they are alot worse than they used to be sub 30km, other ships have been boosted, missile DOT has dropped, cap relays been nerfed and now much tighter for cpu with long range set up.
|
Selim
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:41:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Selim on 13/08/2004 12:44:25
They cant hit a battleship half the time. When they do, its for measly 200 damage or so. The wrecking shots are pathetic, 800 damage? I get higher wrecks with lasers and hybrids. Which have higher damage over time.
Tempest IS the most skill-intensive ship in game, it requires the most player skill intensive in addition to character skills. I trained for months to use a Tempest effectively and its just crap now. I do at least twice, if not more, damage with my apoc, can tank for far, FAR longer, and I only have the minimal skills to use it. I remember trying to kill a 500k battleship with my tempest. It was absolutely sad... I couldnt bring the guys shields down even half way. With both 1400s, and 1200s, and with EMP, Titanium Sabot (Good on guristas, supposedly) and the long range ones. Using autocannons, I burned through literally THOUSANDS of rounds before bringing the shields down. I had exhausted all the ammo in my cargo bay and had to withdraw.
Projectiles working as intended? Bull. They were fine the old way, where they'd actually hit and for good damage. If 1400s missing a battleship at optimal and beyond half the time, and the other half the time doing 100 damage is your opinion of working as intended, then I rest my case. There is no getting through with you devs. If autocannons needing to burn thousands of rounds in order to kill something is your opinion of FINE...
The Tempest is the worst tank out there, it NEEDS to be able to deal good damage. It has TWO damage modifiers on it yet the guns still are pitiful! It doesnt matter that the guns dont use cap! Hybrids and Lasers dont use much either, with all the skill bonuses, and they do loads more damage, per second, AND per shot.
Make it better.
|
Selim
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:41:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Selim on 13/08/2004 12:44:25
They cant hit a battleship half the time. When they do, its for measly 200 damage or so. The wrecking shots are pathetic, 800 damage? I get higher wrecks with lasers and hybrids. Which have higher damage over time.
Tempest IS the most skill-intensive ship in game, it requires the most player skill intensive in addition to character skills. I trained for months to use a Tempest effectively and its just crap now. I do at least twice, if not more, damage with my apoc, can tank for far, FAR longer, and I only have the minimal skills to use it. I remember trying to kill a 500k battleship with my tempest. It was absolutely sad... I couldnt bring the guys shields down even half way. With both 1400s, and 1200s, and with EMP, Titanium Sabot (Good on guristas, supposedly) and the long range ones. Using autocannons, I burned through literally THOUSANDS of rounds before bringing the shields down. I had exhausted all the ammo in my cargo bay and had to withdraw.
Projectiles working as intended? Bull. They were fine the old way, where they'd actually hit and for good damage. If 1400s missing a battleship at optimal and beyond half the time, and the other half the time doing 100 damage is your opinion of working as intended, then I rest my case. There is no getting through with you devs. If autocannons needing to burn thousands of rounds in order to kill something is your opinion of FINE...
The Tempest is the worst tank out there, it NEEDS to be able to deal good damage. It has TWO damage modifiers on it yet the guns still are pitiful! It doesnt matter that the guns dont use cap! Hybrids and Lasers dont use much either, with all the skill bonuses, and they do loads more damage, per second, AND per shot.
Make it better.
|
Kalarin
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:42:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Shade Widow
Well first thing 1400s werent designed to hit frigs and have trouble hitting cruisers. However if you seem to not be able to hit battleships at all?
Are you can kill ANY BS with damage 40-60 from 800mm and 120-160 from 1400mm (Phased Plasma)? And a much of miss. Arma with 1 L armor rep can lightly compensate this "damage".
|
Kalarin
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:42:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Shade Widow
Well first thing 1400s werent designed to hit frigs and have trouble hitting cruisers. However if you seem to not be able to hit battleships at all?
Are you can kill ANY BS with damage 40-60 from 800mm and 120-160 from 1400mm (Phased Plasma)? And a much of miss. Arma with 1 L armor rep can lightly compensate this "damage".
|
Sarinas
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:47:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Selim
I remember trying to kill a 500k battleship with my tempest. It was absolutely sad... I couldnt bring the guys shields down even half way. With both 1400s, and 1200s, and with EMP, Titanium Sabot (Good on guristas, supposedly) and the long range ones. Using autocannons, I burned through literally THOUSANDS of rounds before bringing the shields down. I had exhausted all the ammo in my cargo bay and had to withdraw.
Similar story for me on Blood Raiders using 6x1400 w/ carbonized lead. I survived by having uber optimal range (~80km) and using an MWD to stay at that range. I was fighting a Shadow Sage (500k Arma) and managed to kill it without too much trouble. So I thought, yay, let's go for the bigger ones. I found myself a 750k (Apoc) and fought it for a good 15 minutes. I brought its shields down easily but then it armor tanked faster than I could damage it. I tried with more powerful ammo (phased plasma and EMP) and got owned in no time because I couldn't take the damage it was dealing. Oh, and all that was with 2 T2 tracking enhancers and 2 T2 gyros in my low slots.
---
I bring you joy,
I bring you pain,
I bring you some sunshine
And some rain. |
Sarinas
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:47:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Selim
I remember trying to kill a 500k battleship with my tempest. It was absolutely sad... I couldnt bring the guys shields down even half way. With both 1400s, and 1200s, and with EMP, Titanium Sabot (Good on guristas, supposedly) and the long range ones. Using autocannons, I burned through literally THOUSANDS of rounds before bringing the shields down. I had exhausted all the ammo in my cargo bay and had to withdraw.
Similar story for me on Blood Raiders using 6x1400 w/ carbonized lead. I survived by having uber optimal range (~80km) and using an MWD to stay at that range. I was fighting a Shadow Sage (500k Arma) and managed to kill it without too much trouble. So I thought, yay, let's go for the bigger ones. I found myself a 750k (Apoc) and fought it for a good 15 minutes. I brought its shields down easily but then it armor tanked faster than I could damage it. I tried with more powerful ammo (phased plasma and EMP) and got owned in no time because I couldn't take the damage it was dealing. Oh, and all that was with 2 T2 tracking enhancers and 2 T2 gyros in my low slots.
---
I bring you joy,
I bring you pain,
I bring you some sunshine
And some rain. |
Shade Widow
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:51:00 -
[109]
They must have really changed things then. I remember the tempest doing 400s on average and 1000 damage wrecks.
---
|
Shade Widow
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:51:00 -
[110]
They must have really changed things then. I remember the tempest doing 400s on average and 1000 damage wrecks.
---
|
Sarinas
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:54:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Shade Widow
They must have really changed things then. I remember the tempest doing 400s on average and 1000 damage wrecks.
Yeah... Not anymore.
---
I bring you joy,
I bring you pain,
I bring you some sunshine
And some rain. |
Sarinas
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:54:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Shade Widow
They must have really changed things then. I remember the tempest doing 400s on average and 1000 damage wrecks.
Yeah... Not anymore.
---
I bring you joy,
I bring you pain,
I bring you some sunshine
And some rain. |
Rob Mattacks
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:55:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Shade Widow
They must have really changed things then. I remember the tempest doing 400s on average and 1000 damage wrecks.
They have, that's what this thread is about
|
Rob Mattacks
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:55:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Shade Widow
They must have really changed things then. I remember the tempest doing 400s on average and 1000 damage wrecks.
They have, that's what this thread is about
|
Shade Widow
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:57:00 -
[115]
Edited by: Shade Widow on 13/08/2004 12:59:25
So it does 200 damage now? My incursus frigate does 140 wrecks with a light ion for sakes.
with 800 wrecks?
Is there a petition to sign?
---
|
Shade Widow
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:57:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Shade Widow on 13/08/2004 12:59:25
So it does 200 damage now? My incursus frigate does 140 wrecks with a light ion for sakes.
with 800 wrecks?
Is there a petition to sign?
---
|
Sarinas
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:59:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Shade Widow
So it does 200 damage now? with 800 wrecks?
Is there a petition to sign?
Actually, the last wrecking I made with a 1400mm (w/ carbonized lead) was 350-360 something. Something between 350 and 400 anyway, but closer to 350 than to 400. My skills are a bit lacking but still... This blows hard.
As for a petition, well, the devs have yet to acknowledge the issue. Several threads have been made about it and they all grew quite big, to no avail. There was a thread called "Tempest needs..." started by ProphetGuru that reached 15+ pages but I don't know where it went and can't be bothered to search for it.
---
I bring you joy,
I bring you pain,
I bring you some sunshine
And some rain. |
Sarinas
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 12:59:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Shade Widow
So it does 200 damage now? with 800 wrecks?
Is there a petition to sign?
Actually, the last wrecking I made with a 1400mm (w/ carbonized lead) was 350-360 something. Something between 350 and 400 anyway, but closer to 350 than to 400. My skills are a bit lacking but still... This blows hard.
As for a petition, well, the devs have yet to acknowledge the issue. Several threads have been made about it and they all grew quite big, to no avail. There was a thread called "Tempest needs..." started by ProphetGuru that reached 15+ pages but I don't know where it went and can't be bothered to search for it.
---
I bring you joy,
I bring you pain,
I bring you some sunshine
And some rain. |
Deadflip2
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 13:06:00 -
[119]
they've held the scepter of great bss for a while, like anyone whos been about the best once they want to maintain that power
---
"this song reminds me of the girl i met on a schooltrip, she was really nice, and she really liked me.
I forgot to ask her her phone number" - Nelix trist
OMG im a pretzel!!! |
Deadflip2
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 13:06:00 -
[120]
they've held the scepter of great bss for a while, like anyone whos been about the best once they want to maintain that power
---
"this song reminds me of the girl i met on a schooltrip, she was really nice, and she really liked me.
I forgot to ask her her phone number" - Nelix trist
OMG im a pretzel!!! |
Juhlah Maidan
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 13:10:00 -
[121]
I'm about to start training for Minmatar Battleships and I am.. How should I put it... Concerned!
We have multiple players in this thread with tons of experience from the Tempest and they are all saying that there's something terribly wrong with its current state.
Could we please get a reply from the devs/TomB?
|
Juhlah Maidan
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 13:10:00 -
[122]
I'm about to start training for Minmatar Battleships and I am.. How should I put it... Concerned!
We have multiple players in this thread with tons of experience from the Tempest and they are all saying that there's something terribly wrong with its current state.
Could we please get a reply from the devs/TomB?
|
Shade Widow
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 13:12:00 -
[123]
You usually wont get replys from devs unless you post something evil or they are bored and in the out of pod experience fourm.
---
|
Shade Widow
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 13:12:00 -
[124]
You usually wont get replys from devs unless you post something evil or they are bored and in the out of pod experience fourm.
---
|
Meatead
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 13:32:00 -
[125]
would really just like to see a dev stat they recognise tempest imbalance atm.
Even if they say - hey "its working as it should" at least we would know what we are dealing with....we could then ask for a refund in the time training minmater ships so that we can train another race.
and for the people posting here that they are happy with projectile damage - good for you - its not just about projectile damage tho, and this thread isnt about projectiles really - its about the pride of the minmater fleet being nothing more than a tier1 bs compared with other t2 bs with the damage and tanking abilities it has atm.
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Meatead
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Posted - 2004.08.13 13:32:00 -
[126]
would really just like to see a dev stat they recognise tempest imbalance atm.
Even if they say - hey "its working as it should" at least we would know what we are dealing with....we could then ask for a refund in the time training minmater ships so that we can train another race.
and for the people posting here that they are happy with projectile damage - good for you - its not just about projectile damage tho, and this thread isnt about projectiles really - its about the pride of the minmater fleet being nothing more than a tier1 bs compared with other t2 bs with the damage and tanking abilities it has atm.
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Malfunctionv2
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Posted - 2004.08.13 13:33:00 -
[127]
Wow 4 pages already and not a dev in sight. Can we get a DEV to reply to this FFS. We really must get this issue to the CSM organizing person.
2004.08.25 23:39:52combatYour 720mm Prototype I Siege Cannon perfectly strikes Rogue Pirate Escort, wrecking for 496.8 damage. |
Malfunctionv2
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 13:33:00 -
[128]
Wow 4 pages already and not a dev in sight. Can we get a DEV to reply to this FFS. We really must get this issue to the CSM organizing person.
2004.08.25 23:39:52combatYour 720mm Prototype I Siege Cannon perfectly strikes Rogue Pirate Escort, wrecking for 496.8 damage. |
Outcastino
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 13:33:00 -
[129]
Well......i couldnt kill an arch angel scout at 20km with EMP....i had 5 1400mm and 2x siege with cruises, i was shooting it for 10 minutes before i got a lucky shot and it died. I had no tracking mods or dmg mods.....I now have to get suicidal with 3 tracking comps and 5 gyro || to be as effective as a raven with merely 6 siege / torps. Sure i can now kill the 90k cruisers at 40km in 2/3 volleys. But i only have 1 XL booster and can run it for about, umm...1 minute.
While the raven can do aproxx same damage while being tanked like hell. I'm only doing comparrison with raven as i was npc hunting with some yesterday....and what a difference it was...
--------------------------------------------
I love the smell off cookies in the morning, smells like victory! |
Outcastino
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Posted - 2004.08.13 13:33:00 -
[130]
Well......i couldnt kill an arch angel scout at 20km with EMP....i had 5 1400mm and 2x siege with cruises, i was shooting it for 10 minutes before i got a lucky shot and it died. I had no tracking mods or dmg mods.....I now have to get suicidal with 3 tracking comps and 5 gyro || to be as effective as a raven with merely 6 siege / torps. Sure i can now kill the 90k cruisers at 40km in 2/3 volleys. But i only have 1 XL booster and can run it for about, umm...1 minute.
While the raven can do aproxx same damage while being tanked like hell. I'm only doing comparrison with raven as i was npc hunting with some yesterday....and what a difference it was...
--------------------------------------------
I love the smell off cookies in the morning, smells like victory! |
Valeria
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Posted - 2004.08.13 13:56:00 -
[131]
Tempest with 6 800mm artilleries, 4 damage mods, 2 heavy nosferatu, MWD, Large SB: Deals about 400 damage / sec (Bship lvl 5) at 2400 range, eats through ammo like cake and suffers severe penalty from reloading, has only about 30% more tracking speed than Mega Pulse Laser except with 1/10th the range. Cannot run Large SB on autorepeat even while stealing cap from enemy. Not enough CPU for Power Diags or Shield Amp so will have to suffer SB penalty from cap relay/relays.
Apocalypse with 8 Mega Pulse Lasers, two large armor repaireres, 3 damage mods, rest hardeners and rechargers: Deals 500+ damage / second at ~20km range, tracks almost as fast as auto-cannons. Can run it's tank gear AND weapons forever with capacitor to spare, does not need a MWD to be effective.
I own both Ships and I try really hard to make the Tempest useful, but there is absolutely zero reason to use it over the Apocalypse. This is wrong.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Valeria
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Posted - 2004.08.13 13:56:00 -
[132]
Tempest with 6 800mm artilleries, 4 damage mods, 2 heavy nosferatu, MWD, Large SB: Deals about 400 damage / sec (Bship lvl 5) at 2400 range, eats through ammo like cake and suffers severe penalty from reloading, has only about 30% more tracking speed than Mega Pulse Laser except with 1/10th the range. Cannot run Large SB on autorepeat even while stealing cap from enemy. Not enough CPU for Power Diags or Shield Amp so will have to suffer SB penalty from cap relay/relays.
Apocalypse with 8 Mega Pulse Lasers, two large armor repaireres, 3 damage mods, rest hardeners and rechargers: Deals 500+ damage / second at ~20km range, tracks almost as fast as auto-cannons. Can run it's tank gear AND weapons forever with capacitor to spare, does not need a MWD to be effective.
I own both Ships and I try really hard to make the Tempest useful, but there is absolutely zero reason to use it over the Apocalypse. This is wrong.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Mornee
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Posted - 2004.08.13 14:21:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Valeria
Tempest with 6 800mm artilleries, 4 damage mods, 2 heavy nosferatu, MWD, Large SB: Deals about 400 damage / sec (Bship lvl 5) at 2400 range, eats through ammo like cake and suffers severe penalty from reloading, has only about 30% more tracking speed than Mega Pulse Laser except with 1/10th the range. Cannot run Large SB on autorepeat even while stealing cap from enemy. Not enough CPU for Power Diags or Shield Amp so will have to suffer SB penalty from cap relay/relays.
Apocalypse with 8 Mega Pulse Lasers, two large armor repaireres, 3 damage mods, rest hardeners and rechargers: Deals 500+ damage / second at ~20km range, tracks almost as fast as auto-cannons. Can run it's tank gear AND weapons forever with capacitor to spare, does not need a MWD to be effective.
I own both Ships and I try really hard to make the Tempest useful, but there is absolutely zero reason to use it over the Apocalypse. This is wrong.
That is a fine example on what are the people here talking about. Anyways Valeria has found a way out (flying Apoc), but what about the persistant roleplaying Minmatars? I'll repeat here what i said in "Tempest needs..." post - you can't have roleplaying aspect of the game shoved aside! What about the peeps who devoted their chars to Minmatar race alone, and have no intention to trainf for some other ship that is "Flavour of the month"? Should they be penalized for following the basic principle of RPG games, which is most definitely roleplaying?
If you want to send Minmatar pilots to their agents in empire space, just simply say so, don't nerf the pride of their fleet instead...
_______________________________
Wake up and smell the coffee... |
Mornee
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 14:21:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Valeria
Tempest with 6 800mm artilleries, 4 damage mods, 2 heavy nosferatu, MWD, Large SB: Deals about 400 damage / sec (Bship lvl 5) at 2400 range, eats through ammo like cake and suffers severe penalty from reloading, has only about 30% more tracking speed than Mega Pulse Laser except with 1/10th the range. Cannot run Large SB on autorepeat even while stealing cap from enemy. Not enough CPU for Power Diags or Shield Amp so will have to suffer SB penalty from cap relay/relays.
Apocalypse with 8 Mega Pulse Lasers, two large armor repaireres, 3 damage mods, rest hardeners and rechargers: Deals 500+ damage / second at ~20km range, tracks almost as fast as auto-cannons. Can run it's tank gear AND weapons forever with capacitor to spare, does not need a MWD to be effective.
I own both Ships and I try really hard to make the Tempest useful, but there is absolutely zero reason to use it over the Apocalypse. This is wrong.
That is a fine example on what are the people here talking about. Anyways Valeria has found a way out (flying Apoc), but what about the persistant roleplaying Minmatars? I'll repeat here what i said in "Tempest needs..." post - you can't have roleplaying aspect of the game shoved aside! What about the peeps who devoted their chars to Minmatar race alone, and have no intention to trainf for some other ship that is "Flavour of the month"? Should they be penalized for following the basic principle of RPG games, which is most definitely roleplaying?
If you want to send Minmatar pilots to their agents in empire space, just simply say so, don't nerf the pride of their fleet instead...
_______________________________
Wake up and smell the coffee... |
Sherkaner
|
Posted - 2004.08.13 14:26:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Malfunctionv2
Wow 4 pages already and not a dev in sight. Can we get a DEV to reply to this FFS. We really must get this issue to the CSM organizing person.
This forum is intended mainly for discussions between players. Yes, the devs may answer to some threads, and even ask for feedback in certain situations, but they don't reply to all threads. Probably too busy coding
I would like to ask everyone participating in this thread to stay on-topic and constructive. Repeated bumps or calls for devs are considered spam, and might get the thread locked.
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Sherkaner
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Posted - 2004.08.13 14:26:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Malfunctionv2
Wow 4 pages already and not a dev in sight. Can we get a DEV to reply to this FFS. We really must get this issue to the CSM organizing person.
This forum is intended mainly for discussions between players. Yes, the devs may answer to some threads, and even ask for feedback in certain situations, but they don't reply to all threads. Probably too busy coding
I would like to ask everyone participating in this thread to stay on-topic and constructive. Repeated bumps or calls for devs are considered spam, and might get the thread locked.
|
Shade Widow
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Posted - 2004.08.13 14:29:00 -
[137]
It would be nice if we could compile our ideas and just make a sticky so we dont have to keep posting a thread what do you think mr mod?
---
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Shade Widow
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Posted - 2004.08.13 14:29:00 -
[138]
It would be nice if we could compile our ideas and just make a sticky so we dont have to keep posting a thread what do you think mr mod?
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Valentine Keen
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Posted - 2004.08.13 14:29:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Deadflip2
they've held the scepter of great bss for a while, like anyone whos been about the best once they want to maintain that power
Nope, this is about projectiles being hopeless.
I wasn't in a battleship when Tempests were uber, neither, I believe, was the original poster.
However, as both newcomers to them we have learned that they simply cannot do what other battleships can.
In my case, I've learned that no matter how much tracking I add with modules or ranges I try, a large autocannon can't hit, or at least hit for anything like decent damage, a cruiser for all the rice in china.
Yet there are people killing them with large pulse lasers and large blasters without having so much difficulty. Maybe they add a tracking mod or two or revise their ranges, but they can still do it.
Nothing's working for me and my dual-650s or 800s and I'm chewing through thousands of ammo a day to no avail.
Right now I'm adding 3 tracking mods just to occasionally hit a cruiser at 15km that's almost statinery, with a gun designed to kill at about 1km!
True, it's a smaller target, but other large guns aren't this bad, why should the race I've chosen suck?
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Valentine Keen
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Posted - 2004.08.13 14:29:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Deadflip2
they've held the scepter of great bss for a while, like anyone whos been about the best once they want to maintain that power
Nope, this is about projectiles being hopeless.
I wasn't in a battleship when Tempests were uber, neither, I believe, was the original poster.
However, as both newcomers to them we have learned that they simply cannot do what other battleships can.
In my case, I've learned that no matter how much tracking I add with modules or ranges I try, a large autocannon can't hit, or at least hit for anything like decent damage, a cruiser for all the rice in china.
Yet there are people killing them with large pulse lasers and large blasters without having so much difficulty. Maybe they add a tracking mod or two or revise their ranges, but they can still do it.
Nothing's working for me and my dual-650s or 800s and I'm chewing through thousands of ammo a day to no avail.
Right now I'm adding 3 tracking mods just to occasionally hit a cruiser at 15km that's almost statinery, with a gun designed to kill at about 1km!
True, it's a smaller target, but other large guns aren't this bad, why should the race I've chosen suck?
|
Nilit
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Posted - 2004.08.13 14:33:00 -
[141]
Imho , the only Minmatar ship left that is worth flying is Stilleto , which is what I do atm :)
Arguing with EVE customer support is like chatting up stewardess on the plane - you know you're not gonna get any , but it's still hella fun trying |
Nilit
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Posted - 2004.08.13 14:33:00 -
[142]
Imho , the only Minmatar ship left that is worth flying is Stilleto , which is what I do atm :)
Arguing with EVE customer support is like chatting up stewardess on the plane - you know you're not gonna get any , but it's still hella fun trying |
Shade Widow
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Posted - 2004.08.13 14:38:00 -
[143]
The stabber is one of the best minmatar cruisers. There is also the rifter and the interceptors which both are extremly good frigs.
---
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Shade Widow
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Posted - 2004.08.13 14:38:00 -
[144]
The stabber is one of the best minmatar cruisers. There is also the rifter and the interceptors which both are extremly good frigs.
---
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Estios
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Posted - 2004.08.13 14:42:00 -
[145]
/me strokes Valeria .....there is pretty much nothing left to add after her superb post !!!
So HMV consider Andy Williams and Dean Martin to be "easy listening" do they? Tell that to my mate Dave, he's been deaf for 20 years.
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Estios
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Posted - 2004.08.13 14:42:00 -
[146]
/me strokes Valeria .....there is pretty much nothing left to add after her superb post !!!
So HMV consider Andy Williams and Dean Martin to be "easy listening" do they? Tell that to my mate Dave, he's been deaf for 20 years.
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Terminus Est
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Posted - 2004.08.13 14:46:00 -
[147]
I have too trained Minmatar BS lvl 4 a long time ago, but then i stopped playing for awhile. I never could afford a BS, and as i come closer to be able to purchase it, i see i may just have to try something else. I dont like that either.
As far as role playing goes, i can still accept moving for gallente Technology. We're allies after all. But i may have to learn to use a lot of equipment i'm not really familiar with. I've always been into projectiles and speed. That was the focus of my setups, both in frigates and in cruisers.
The other day on a corp event i used a Tempest against a Raven. I didnt stand a chance, Raven was not even tanked and its shields never went bellow 50%. All the while i was being pounded by torpedos and cruise missiles.
From the log i could tell that hiting was not really the problem, i had lots of hits, but the DOT was simply not enough. And i have most gunnery skills at 4 and some at 5.
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Terminus Est
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Posted - 2004.08.13 14:46:00 -
[148]
I have too trained Minmatar BS lvl 4 a long time ago, but then i stopped playing for awhile. I never could afford a BS, and as i come closer to be able to purchase it, i see i may just have to try something else. I dont like that either.
As far as role playing goes, i can still accept moving for gallente Technology. We're allies after all. But i may have to learn to use a lot of equipment i'm not really familiar with. I've always been into projectiles and speed. That was the focus of my setups, both in frigates and in cruisers.
The other day on a corp event i used a Tempest against a Raven. I didnt stand a chance, Raven was not even tanked and its shields never went bellow 50%. All the while i was being pounded by torpedos and cruise missiles.
From the log i could tell that hiting was not really the problem, i had lots of hits, but the DOT was simply not enough. And i have most gunnery skills at 4 and some at 5.
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Shim'naunta
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Posted - 2004.08.13 14:47:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Sherkaner
Originally by: Malfunctionv2
Wow 4 pages already and not a dev in sight. Can we get a DEV to reply to this FFS. We really must get this issue to the CSM organizing person.
This forum is intended mainly for discussions between players. Yes, the devs may answer to some threads, and even ask for feedback in certain situations, but they don't reply to all threads. Probably too busy coding
I would like to ask everyone participating in this thread to stay on-topic and constructive. Repeated bumps or calls for devs are considered spam, and might get the thread locked.
ok then tell us how to be constructive and how to put our concerns to the developers, as at the moment there is no resnable way of doing this. is there a email or special web ste we must go to, if we cant tell the developers the probs withthe game (especially since they removed the bug report, oh and i got told to file a bug report the other day so it proves how much attention the developers pay to the patch's)
if the develpors dont read these fourms and there is no longer a bug report sytem, how can we gt there attention.
there needd to be a coder that can respond to sensible threads or at least someone who has direct contact with them.
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Shim'naunta
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Posted - 2004.08.13 14:47:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Sherkaner
Originally by: Malfunctionv2
Wow 4 pages already and not a dev in sight. Can we get a DEV to reply to this FFS. We really must get this issue to the CSM organizing person.
This forum is intended mainly for discussions between players. Yes, the devs may answer to some threads, and even ask for feedback in certain situations, but they don't reply to all threads. Probably too busy coding
I would like to ask everyone participating in this thread to stay on-topic and constructive. Repeated bumps or calls for devs are considered spam, and might get the thread locked.
ok then tell us how to be constructive and how to put our concerns to the developers, as at the moment there is no resnable way of doing this. is there a email or special web ste we must go to, if we cant tell the developers the probs withthe game (especially since they removed the bug report, oh and i got told to file a bug report the other day so it proves how much attention the developers pay to the patch's)
if the develpors dont read these fourms and there is no longer a bug report sytem, how can we gt there attention.
there needd to be a coder that can respond to sensible threads or at least someone who has direct contact with them.
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Raven Norsca
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Posted - 2004.08.13 15:11:00 -
[151]
Heh to rack up another view..
I had a caldari friend of mine train for minmatar BS. I kept telling him not to, don't waste your time but he persisted saying he could make it work.
Well he got into a tempest, he bought some guns (he tried every one available) and went out.
After 3 days he came back telling me the ship sucked, he couldn't believe how utterly pitiful his damage and rof was.
Too make a long story short he was almost killed by a 110k rat but luckily his missiles polished it off. of course he was gonna run first but he couldn't believe the guns did such low low damage.
NOW for the other side.
I have another friend running a tempest. He's found he can land a hit every time with 1400s for insane damage. wanna know how?
First off! he has to camp at 150k from the target. and second! ships using SIX tracking links on him.
Wow....that's great..
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Raven Norsca
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Posted - 2004.08.13 15:11:00 -
[152]
Heh to rack up another view..
I had a caldari friend of mine train for minmatar BS. I kept telling him not to, don't waste your time but he persisted saying he could make it work.
Well he got into a tempest, he bought some guns (he tried every one available) and went out.
After 3 days he came back telling me the ship sucked, he couldn't believe how utterly pitiful his damage and rof was.
Too make a long story short he was almost killed by a 110k rat but luckily his missiles polished it off. of course he was gonna run first but he couldn't believe the guns did such low low damage.
NOW for the other side.
I have another friend running a tempest. He's found he can land a hit every time with 1400s for insane damage. wanna know how?
First off! he has to camp at 150k from the target. and second! ships using SIX tracking links on him.
Wow....that's great..
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Shade Widow
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Posted - 2004.08.13 15:26:00 -
[153]
actually that is kinda cool he doesnt even have to be remotely close
---
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Shade Widow
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Posted - 2004.08.13 15:26:00 -
[154]
actually that is kinda cool he doesnt even have to be remotely close
---
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Vager
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Posted - 2004.08.13 16:00:00 -
[155]
I think it's not just 1400's and the tempest that are off at the mo but projectiles in general. On my claw I find that 200mm auto cannons have no problems hitting ships but do pitiful damage and 280's have good damage but have a higher rof than many large hybrids and lasers (with only the rof skill it's around 7 secs if u are in a ship without rof bonus) and cannot hit anything if u so much as breath and your target is not nailed to a roid. Infact the only reason I have for using either the 280's or 200's is because I believe it is a waste of a ships bonus to use rails or lasers. I'm just glad the claw has launchers or else the damage potential would be laughable like the stilleto (good ew/support ship tho).
It does seem a bit of a joke when I hear people say to fit small guns on your bs to hit frigs, when your small guns struggle to work even on frigs that get a tracking or rof bonus. It seems to me that all the short range projectiles need a slight damage increase and the long range need a slight tracking increase. This would bring them more in line with lasers and hybrids.
I fly all the other races up to bs at the same level and amarr interceptors, I also have all turrets at the same levels, so I have plent of opportunity to compare like for like. It seems that projectiles are currently this seasons lasers.
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Vager
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Posted - 2004.08.13 16:00:00 -
[156]
I think it's not just 1400's and the tempest that are off at the mo but projectiles in general. On my claw I find that 200mm auto cannons have no problems hitting ships but do pitiful damage and 280's have good damage but have a higher rof than many large hybrids and lasers (with only the rof skill it's around 7 secs if u are in a ship without rof bonus) and cannot hit anything if u so much as breath and your target is not nailed to a roid. Infact the only reason I have for using either the 280's or 200's is because I believe it is a waste of a ships bonus to use rails or lasers. I'm just glad the claw has launchers or else the damage potential would be laughable like the stilleto (good ew/support ship tho).
It does seem a bit of a joke when I hear people say to fit small guns on your bs to hit frigs, when your small guns struggle to work even on frigs that get a tracking or rof bonus. It seems to me that all the short range projectiles need a slight damage increase and the long range need a slight tracking increase. This would bring them more in line with lasers and hybrids.
I fly all the other races up to bs at the same level and amarr interceptors, I also have all turrets at the same levels, so I have plent of opportunity to compare like for like. It seems that projectiles are currently this seasons lasers.
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Artegg
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Posted - 2004.08.13 16:14:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Valeria
Tempest with 6 800mm artilleries, 4 damage mods, 2 heavy nosferatu, MWD, Large SB: Deals about 400 damage / sec (Bship lvl 5) at 2400 range, eats through ammo like cake and suffers severe penalty from reloading, has only about 30% more tracking speed than Mega Pulse Laser except with 1/10th the range. Cannot run Large SB on autorepeat even while stealing cap from enemy. Not enough CPU for Power Diags or Shield Amp so will have to suffer SB penalty from cap relay/relays.
Apocalypse with 8 Mega Pulse Lasers, two large armor repaireres, 3 damage mods, rest hardeners and rechargers: Deals 500+ damage / second at ~20km range, tracks almost as fast as auto-cannons. Can run it's tank gear AND weapons forever with capacitor to spare, does not need a MWD to be effective.
I own both Ships and I try really hard to make the Tempest useful, but there is absolutely zero reason to use it over the Apocalypse. This is wrong.
 Perfection in a post, the above is a clear example of what is wrong
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Artegg
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Posted - 2004.08.13 16:14:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Valeria
Tempest with 6 800mm artilleries, 4 damage mods, 2 heavy nosferatu, MWD, Large SB: Deals about 400 damage / sec (Bship lvl 5) at 2400 range, eats through ammo like cake and suffers severe penalty from reloading, has only about 30% more tracking speed than Mega Pulse Laser except with 1/10th the range. Cannot run Large SB on autorepeat even while stealing cap from enemy. Not enough CPU for Power Diags or Shield Amp so will have to suffer SB penalty from cap relay/relays.
Apocalypse with 8 Mega Pulse Lasers, two large armor repaireres, 3 damage mods, rest hardeners and rechargers: Deals 500+ damage / second at ~20km range, tracks almost as fast as auto-cannons. Can run it's tank gear AND weapons forever with capacitor to spare, does not need a MWD to be effective.
I own both Ships and I try really hard to make the Tempest useful, but there is absolutely zero reason to use it over the Apocalypse. This is wrong.
Perfection in a post, the above is a clear example of what is wrong
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Selim
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Posted - 2004.08.13 16:27:00 -
[159]
Can a dev at least post to say he and the others are working on this?
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Selim
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Posted - 2004.08.13 16:27:00 -
[160]
Can a dev at least post to say he and the others are working on this?
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.08.13 16:34:00 -
[161]
Edited by: Hellek on 13/08/2004 16:39:10
Originally by: Valeria
Tempest with 6 800mm artilleries, 4 damage mods, 2 heavy nosferatu, MWD, Large SB: Deals about 400 damage / sec (Bship lvl 5) at 2400 range, eats through ammo like cake and suffers severe penalty from reloading, has only about 30% more tracking speed than Mega Pulse Laser except with 1/10th the range. Cannot run Large SB on autorepeat even while stealing cap from enemy. Not enough CPU for Power Diags or Shield Amp so will have to suffer SB penalty from cap relay/relays.
Apocalypse with 8 Mega Pulse Lasers, two large armor repaireres, 3 damage mods, rest hardeners and rechargers: Deals 500+ damage / second at ~20km range, tracks almost as fast as auto-cannons. Can run it's tank gear AND weapons forever with capacitor to spare, does not need a MWD to be effective.
I own both Ships and I try really hard to make the Tempest useful, but there is absolutely zero reason to use it over the Apocalypse. This is wrong.
An Apoc with such a setup can't tank well though. 7 lowslots, - 2 for the armor reps -3 for the damage mods = 2 hardeners = one very low resistance and especially, big cap problems as it can only have 4 cap recharger II in the meds (~40mill isk) but has nothing else for cap. so you can't run the 2 L reps for long and alone the firing will take about 50% of your cap. I agree that the apoc might be a bit better but you are exaggerating.
Try what happens if you fit 6 dual 650mm, 2 heavy nos and MWD to fight a megapulse-apoc. Orbit it at something like 10km (I can't remember the exact range you should choose as i did it quite a while ago, also, lower your speed if you miss too often) and see what happens. You hit the Apoc all the time while the megapulses mostly miss you. With your superior base speed you can choose the range at which you want to fight, MWD is of course only to be used for aproaching.
If you fight at longer ranges with 1400mm, you will see even better what advantages the Tempest has over the Apoc. Megabeams and especially Tachyons use far more cap than the Megapulses, have much higher fitting requirements, deal a lot less damage. On your side, you have higher fitting requirements as well (but still can fit 6x 1400m + 1 siege launcher without any big trouble) and deal similar damage to the Apoc but without the cap use.
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.08.13 16:34:00 -
[162]
Edited by: Hellek on 13/08/2004 16:39:10
Originally by: Valeria
Tempest with 6 800mm artilleries, 4 damage mods, 2 heavy nosferatu, MWD, Large SB: Deals about 400 damage / sec (Bship lvl 5) at 2400 range, eats through ammo like cake and suffers severe penalty from reloading, has only about 30% more tracking speed than Mega Pulse Laser except with 1/10th the range. Cannot run Large SB on autorepeat even while stealing cap from enemy. Not enough CPU for Power Diags or Shield Amp so will have to suffer SB penalty from cap relay/relays.
Apocalypse with 8 Mega Pulse Lasers, two large armor repaireres, 3 damage mods, rest hardeners and rechargers: Deals 500+ damage / second at ~20km range, tracks almost as fast as auto-cannons. Can run it's tank gear AND weapons forever with capacitor to spare, does not need a MWD to be effective.
I own both Ships and I try really hard to make the Tempest useful, but there is absolutely zero reason to use it over the Apocalypse. This is wrong.
An Apoc with such a setup can't tank well though. 7 lowslots, - 2 for the armor reps -3 for the damage mods = 2 hardeners = one very low resistance and especially, big cap problems as it can only have 4 cap recharger II in the meds (~40mill isk) but has nothing else for cap. so you can't run the 2 L reps for long and alone the firing will take about 50% of your cap. I agree that the apoc might be a bit better but you are exaggerating.
Try what happens if you fit 6 dual 650mm, 2 heavy nos and MWD to fight a megapulse-apoc. Orbit it at something like 10km (I can't remember the exact range you should choose as i did it quite a while ago, also, lower your speed if you miss too often) and see what happens. You hit the Apoc all the time while the megapulses mostly miss you. With your superior base speed you can choose the range at which you want to fight, MWD is of course only to be used for aproaching.
If you fight at longer ranges with 1400mm, you will see even better what advantages the Tempest has over the Apoc. Megabeams and especially Tachyons use far more cap than the Megapulses, have much higher fitting requirements, deal a lot less damage. On your side, you have higher fitting requirements as well (but still can fit 6x 1400m + 1 siege launcher without any big trouble) and deal similar damage to the Apoc but without the cap use.
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Cykur
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Posted - 2004.08.13 16:51:00 -
[163]
My take on the problem is also projectiles...
The only decent damage situation you are going to find in Tempest is firing dual 650's or 800's at about 10km at a barely moving target.
Projectiles have tremendous falloff, but relatively low optimal. Sure, the close range L Proj weapons can hit consistently at over 20km, but they are into falloff so the already low DoT is further reduced. The artillery on the other hand does not hit well in the 20-40km ranges due to very low tracking. The DoT is also bad compared to other long range weapons. Again, the best results come from fighting at very long ranges, but we are again into our falloff. Being into falloff further reduces the damage of an already low DoT weapon.
I am not positive on this, but it seems like projectiles used to not experience as much degradation in damage due to range. I'm not sure when this changed, because I take breaks from the game sometimes. So even though the RoF was bad, when projectiles did land a hit, it hurt. (This kind of makes sense, lasers have optimal focal ranges and plasma disperses with range, but a solid shell is not going to lose kinetic/explosive energy).
I think at some point projectiles were switched over to use the same rules as all the other two weapons, but because we operate in our falloff ranges to be accurate (or because the 650, 800's have little range), in actual battle situations at 20-40 km, lasers and hybrids can smoke projectiles, because not only do they do higher base DoT, but they have EFFECTIVE load outs to take advantage of most ranges, with lasers currently being most flexible.
My 2 cents......again. =)
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Cykur
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Posted - 2004.08.13 16:51:00 -
[164]
My take on the problem is also projectiles...
The only decent damage situation you are going to find in Tempest is firing dual 650's or 800's at about 10km at a barely moving target.
Projectiles have tremendous falloff, but relatively low optimal. Sure, the close range L Proj weapons can hit consistently at over 20km, but they are into falloff so the already low DoT is further reduced. The artillery on the other hand does not hit well in the 20-40km ranges due to very low tracking. The DoT is also bad compared to other long range weapons. Again, the best results come from fighting at very long ranges, but we are again into our falloff. Being into falloff further reduces the damage of an already low DoT weapon.
I am not positive on this, but it seems like projectiles used to not experience as much degradation in damage due to range. I'm not sure when this changed, because I take breaks from the game sometimes. So even though the RoF was bad, when projectiles did land a hit, it hurt. (This kind of makes sense, lasers have optimal focal ranges and plasma disperses with range, but a solid shell is not going to lose kinetic/explosive energy).
I think at some point projectiles were switched over to use the same rules as all the other two weapons, but because we operate in our falloff ranges to be accurate (or because the 650, 800's have little range), in actual battle situations at 20-40 km, lasers and hybrids can smoke projectiles, because not only do they do higher base DoT, but they have EFFECTIVE load outs to take advantage of most ranges, with lasers currently being most flexible.
My 2 cents......again. =)
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Cykur
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Posted - 2004.08.13 16:53:00 -
[165]
ouch, I apologize for the atrocious run-on sentence in my post.... I'm at work, and was in a rush. =)
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Cykur
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Posted - 2004.08.13 16:53:00 -
[166]
ouch, I apologize for the atrocious run-on sentence in my post.... I'm at work, and was in a rush. =)
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Ulendar
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Posted - 2004.08.13 17:05:00 -
[167]
3 months ago all i saw on chaos was Ravens, Ravens, Ravens...
Now all i see on chaos is Apoc, Apoc, Apoc, Apoc...
Is it just me or are the devs simply not capable of balancing this damnable game!?
Originally by: cashman
It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this.
It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
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Ulendar
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Posted - 2004.08.13 17:05:00 -
[168]
3 months ago all i saw on chaos was Ravens, Ravens, Ravens...
Now all i see on chaos is Apoc, Apoc, Apoc, Apoc...
Is it just me or are the devs simply not capable of balancing this damnable game!?
Originally by: cashman
It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this.
It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.08.13 17:08:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Ulendar
3 months ago all i saw on chaos was Ravens, Ravens, Ravens...
Now all i see on chaos is Apoc, Apoc, Apoc, Apoc...
Is it just me or are the devs simply not capable of balancing this damnable game!?
Chaos combat has barely anything to do with TQ. On TQ I see more Caldari ships than Amarr ships. Why? Cause ECM and such stuff play a role on TQ as well, on chaos they are mostly ignored.
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.08.13 17:08:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Ulendar
3 months ago all i saw on chaos was Ravens, Ravens, Ravens...
Now all i see on chaos is Apoc, Apoc, Apoc, Apoc...
Is it just me or are the devs simply not capable of balancing this damnable game!?
Chaos combat has barely anything to do with TQ. On TQ I see more Caldari ships than Amarr ships. Why? Cause ECM and such stuff play a role on TQ as well, on chaos they are mostly ignored.
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ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.08.13 17:54:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Hellek
Edited by: Hellek on 13/08/2004 16:39:10
An Apoc with such a setup can't tank well though. 7 lowslots, - 2 for the armor reps -3 for the damage mods = 2 hardeners = one very low resistance and especially, big cap problems as it can only have 4 cap recharger II in the meds (~40mill isk) but has nothing else for cap. so you can't run the 2 L reps for long and alone the firing will take about 50% of your cap. I agree that the apoc might be a bit better but you are exaggerating.
No she isin't. You say it won't run the repairers long, and while that may be true, the fact is the temp will be dealing inferior damage, and replenishing fewer hp. In the end, it will be long enough.
Cap is very important, but you can't simply spout the mantra of lasers will burn more cap.... when you don't look at it in the context of the amount of dmg her setup will absorb and dish out, in comparison to the tempest.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.08.13 17:54:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Hellek
Edited by: Hellek on 13/08/2004 16:39:10
An Apoc with such a setup can't tank well though. 7 lowslots, - 2 for the armor reps -3 for the damage mods = 2 hardeners = one very low resistance and especially, big cap problems as it can only have 4 cap recharger II in the meds (~40mill isk) but has nothing else for cap. so you can't run the 2 L reps for long and alone the firing will take about 50% of your cap. I agree that the apoc might be a bit better but you are exaggerating.
No she isin't. You say it won't run the repairers long, and while that may be true, the fact is the temp will be dealing inferior damage, and replenishing fewer hp. In the end, it will be long enough.
Cap is very important, but you can't simply spout the mantra of lasers will burn more cap.... when you don't look at it in the context of the amount of dmg her setup will absorb and dish out, in comparison to the tempest.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Veneth
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Posted - 2004.08.13 18:21:00 -
[173]
not to mention that when the tempest goes to reload any advantage it may of had will be lost in it's 10 seconds of non fire :) but that's another subject..
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Veneth
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Posted - 2004.08.13 18:21:00 -
[174]
not to mention that when the tempest goes to reload any advantage it may of had will be lost in it's 10 seconds of non fire :) but that's another subject..
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Cykur
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Posted - 2004.08.13 18:30:00 -
[175]
Veneth, hybrid weapons have to reload too.....not really an issue here.
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Cykur
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Posted - 2004.08.13 18:30:00 -
[176]
Veneth, hybrid weapons have to reload too.....not really an issue here.
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Zu Lu
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Posted - 2004.08.13 18:36:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Cykur
Veneth, hybrid weapons have to reload too.....not really an issue here.
Well there is a comparison between an apoc and tempest in this thread...
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Zu Lu
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Posted - 2004.08.13 18:36:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Cykur
Veneth, hybrid weapons have to reload too.....not really an issue here.
Well there is a comparison between an apoc and tempest in this thread...
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Veneth
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Posted - 2004.08.13 18:51:00 -
[179]
it's viable with proj vs hybrids. hybrids hold a lot more ammo and fire that ammo much faster. when the Tempest gets stuck in a 10 second reload it's killer..
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Veneth
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Posted - 2004.08.13 18:51:00 -
[180]
it's viable with proj vs hybrids. hybrids hold a lot more ammo and fire that ammo much faster. when the Tempest gets stuck in a 10 second reload it's killer..
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.08.13 18:55:00 -
[181]
is there anything wrong in the thing that Typhoon armed whit megapulses can woop tempest whut 800mms ?????????
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.08.13 18:55:00 -
[182]
is there anything wrong in the thing that Typhoon armed whit megapulses can woop tempest whut 800mms ?????????
-------------------------------------------
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Cykur
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Posted - 2004.08.13 20:19:00 -
[183]
Yeah, I broke down a couple weeks ago and have been using megapulses on my Typhoon as well. They work great!
Vaneth,
What I was trying to say is that the reload issue was not specific to projectiles. Of course, no one likes reload, but if projectiles were working better, we should not have any more reason to complain than a hybrid user.
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Cykur
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Posted - 2004.08.13 20:19:00 -
[184]
Yeah, I broke down a couple weeks ago and have been using megapulses on my Typhoon as well. They work great!
Vaneth,
What I was trying to say is that the reload issue was not specific to projectiles. Of course, no one likes reload, but if projectiles were working better, we should not have any more reason to complain than a hybrid user.
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Noin
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Posted - 2004.08.13 21:08:00 -
[185]
Ehh also note this:
Everything in this game is percentage-based.
I see people with Apoc say that cap usage is such a disadvantage but consider this:
1: Tempest has much worse base cap recharge. My base cap recharge is 10, an Apoc has 25 (dunno actual numbers, sorry). So if I fit a few rechargers that do +25% extra recharge, I get an actual 2.5 cap recharge extra. An apoc user gets 6.25. Thats a huge difference.
2: I don't know if you Apoc users noticed but you have a skill that Tempests don't have. It's called 'controlled burst'
Again, this skill is percentage-based, and since a projectile uses 5 cap per shot and a beam uses 50, the profit of that skill is virtually 0 for a projectile user and very very usefull for a beam user.
Maybe it's a good idea to make a 'projectile/hybrid-only' skill like: Ammo-management.
The skill to fit more ammo into a gun that normal. So instead of having to reload after 10 ( thats only TEN shots!!) projectile and hybrid users may train the skill so they can fit double the amount of ammo at skill-level 5.
Useless for beam users, fairly usefull for hybrids, incredibly usefull for projectiles.
3: (This is a crappy excuse, but still consider it)
Tempest is supposed to be a long range ship. So far, TomB's only excuse not to respond to any of the 'Projectiles is nerfed'-posts is: 'they work as intended'.
Hence I NEED my range, hence I NEED an MWD. Actually, I might even NEED 2. 2 MWD's screw up any setup, shield-wise and cap-wise no matter what but I need the range!
My Tempest goes what? 20m/s faster than your Apoc at base?
My ship needs to be at least 200m/s faster for me to keep out of real big trouble, since I can't hit anything under 40km with a long range setup, and beam users CAN hit stuff under 40km.
/signed Noin, training beams and amarr, betraying the Minmatars
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Noin
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Posted - 2004.08.13 21:08:00 -
[186]
Ehh also note this:
Everything in this game is percentage-based.
I see people with Apoc say that cap usage is such a disadvantage but consider this:
1: Tempest has much worse base cap recharge. My base cap recharge is 10, an Apoc has 25 (dunno actual numbers, sorry). So if I fit a few rechargers that do +25% extra recharge, I get an actual 2.5 cap recharge extra. An apoc user gets 6.25. Thats a huge difference.
2: I don't know if you Apoc users noticed but you have a skill that Tempests don't have. It's called 'controlled burst'
Again, this skill is percentage-based, and since a projectile uses 5 cap per shot and a beam uses 50, the profit of that skill is virtually 0 for a projectile user and very very usefull for a beam user.
Maybe it's a good idea to make a 'projectile/hybrid-only' skill like: Ammo-management.
The skill to fit more ammo into a gun that normal. So instead of having to reload after 10 ( thats only TEN shots!!) projectile and hybrid users may train the skill so they can fit double the amount of ammo at skill-level 5.
Useless for beam users, fairly usefull for hybrids, incredibly usefull for projectiles.
3: (This is a crappy excuse, but still consider it)
Tempest is supposed to be a long range ship. So far, TomB's only excuse not to respond to any of the 'Projectiles is nerfed'-posts is: 'they work as intended'.
Hence I NEED my range, hence I NEED an MWD. Actually, I might even NEED 2. 2 MWD's screw up any setup, shield-wise and cap-wise no matter what but I need the range!
My Tempest goes what? 20m/s faster than your Apoc at base?
My ship needs to be at least 200m/s faster for me to keep out of real big trouble, since I can't hit anything under 40km with a long range setup, and beam users CAN hit stuff under 40km.
/signed Noin, training beams and amarr, betraying the Minmatars
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Wulfgard
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Posted - 2004.08.14 02:48:00 -
[187]
I am very confident CCP will look in this matter and fix the whole Projectile/Tempest mess. But I hope they will do it without nerfing something else (ie hybrids or lasers). Sadly, it has become a pattern, an healthy balance (unerf this but nerf that).
Pilots shouldn't have to train 3 bs races to be able to play this game. I hope CCP realizes it and encourages specialisation, it would add more depth and RP to EVE.
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Wulfgard
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Posted - 2004.08.14 02:48:00 -
[188]
I am very confident CCP will look in this matter and fix the whole Projectile/Tempest mess. But I hope they will do it without nerfing something else (ie hybrids or lasers). Sadly, it has become a pattern, an healthy balance (unerf this but nerf that).
Pilots shouldn't have to train 3 bs races to be able to play this game. I hope CCP realizes it and encourages specialisation, it would add more depth and RP to EVE.
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Nieda
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Posted - 2004.08.14 16:16:00 -
[189]
I just put 6 heavy pulse lasers on my tempest and went doing missions.
Give me a break ...
I forgot when I had so much fun. Warp in 15 and unload carnage. If nothing changes, I'll be selling my tempest for spot money and the game will loose another minmatar pilot.
---------------------------------------------
2004.08.12 14:50:32combatYour 720mm Carbine Howitzer I perfectly strikes Guristas Destructor, wrecking for 543.9 damage. |
Nieda
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Posted - 2004.08.14 16:16:00 -
[190]
I just put 6 heavy pulse lasers on my tempest and went doing missions.
Give me a break ...
I forgot when I had so much fun. Warp in 15 and unload carnage. If nothing changes, I'll be selling my tempest for spot money and the game will loose another minmatar pilot.
---------------------------------------------
2004.08.12 14:50:32combatYour 720mm Carbine Howitzer I perfectly strikes Guristas Destructor, wrecking for 543.9 damage. |
Grim Vandal
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Posted - 2004.08.14 17:42:00 -
[191]
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:46:47
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:45:42
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:44:20
Found the following in an old dev blog!!! here
And I think EXACTLY THESE 2 changes hit the 1400 howitzer I the most:
1) The damage done by a 'normal hit' is no longer 100% damage every time but now simply any hit that does between 75% and 100% damage. The full range remains as it always was, 50% to 150%.
2) The Details of Accuracy
Signature Radius is used for two things. To determine the time it takes to lock the target (along with the targeter's scan resolution), and to determine how hard the ship is to hit while moving.
The difficulty in hitting a target is not based on absolute speed, but rather how quickly you or your target are orbiting. This can be measured in transverse velocity at range (the number in the scanner), in angular velocity (radians per second is the value in turrets), or roughly as Orbits/Rotations over time (RPM).
Ignoring signature radius, a turret with a 0.1 Radians per Second tracking speed will have a 50% chance of hitting a target moving at 0.1 Radians per second angular velocity.
A turret firing on a target with half the signature radius needs twice the tracking speed (0.2) to have the same 50% chance of hitting at the same angular velocity. If the target has twice the signature radius the turret will need half the tracking speed (0.05) to have the same 50% chance of hitting at the same angular velocity.
Greetings Grim |
Grim Vandal
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Posted - 2004.08.14 17:42:00 -
[192]
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:46:47
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:45:42
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:44:20
Found the following in an old dev blog!!! here
And I think EXACTLY THESE 2 changes hit the 1400 howitzer I the most:
1) The damage done by a 'normal hit' is no longer 100% damage every time but now simply any hit that does between 75% and 100% damage. The full range remains as it always was, 50% to 150%.
2) The Details of Accuracy
Signature Radius is used for two things. To determine the time it takes to lock the target (along with the targeter's scan resolution), and to determine how hard the ship is to hit while moving.
The difficulty in hitting a target is not based on absolute speed, but rather how quickly you or your target are orbiting. This can be measured in transverse velocity at range (the number in the scanner), in angular velocity (radians per second is the value in turrets), or roughly as Orbits/Rotations over time (RPM).
Ignoring signature radius, a turret with a 0.1 Radians per Second tracking speed will have a 50% chance of hitting a target moving at 0.1 Radians per second angular velocity.
A turret firing on a target with half the signature radius needs twice the tracking speed (0.2) to have the same 50% chance of hitting at the same angular velocity. If the target has twice the signature radius the turret will need half the tracking speed (0.05) to have the same 50% chance of hitting at the same angular velocity.
Greetings Grim |
Bohr
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Posted - 2004.08.14 20:02:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Even though I don't fly one, I must agree - Tempest pilots have been sorely shafted. Their weapons are mostly inept, and I can only empathize with the exodus away from Minmatar ships overall.
3 mil for a tier 2 Tempest BPO says a lot :)
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Bohr
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Posted - 2004.08.14 20:02:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Even though I don't fly one, I must agree - Tempest pilots have been sorely shafted. Their weapons are mostly inept, and I can only empathize with the exodus away from Minmatar ships overall.
3 mil for a tier 2 Tempest BPO says a lot :)
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Juanita Loup
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Posted - 2004.08.14 22:26:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Grim Vandal
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:46:47
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:45:42
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:44:20
Found the following in an old dev blog!!! here
And I think EXACTLY THESE 2 changes hit the 1400 howitzer I the most:
1) The damage done by a 'normal hit' is no longer 100% damage every time but now simply any hit that does between 75% and 100% damage. The full range remains as it always was, 50% to 150%.
2) The Details of Accuracy
Signature Radius is used for two things. To determine the time it takes to lock the target (along with the targeter's scan resolution), and to determine how hard the ship is to hit while moving.
The difficulty in hitting a target is not based on absolute speed, but rather how quickly you or your target are orbiting. This can be measured in transverse velocity at range (the number in the scanner), in angular velocity (radians per second is the value in turrets), or roughly as Orbits/Rotations over time (RPM).
Ignoring signature radius, a turret with a 0.1 Radians per Second tracking speed will have a 50% chance of hitting a target moving at 0.1 Radians per second angular velocity.
A turret firing on a target with half the signature radius needs twice the tracking speed (0.2) to have the same 50% chance of hitting at the same angular velocity. If the target has twice the signature radius the turret will need half the tracking speed (0.05) to have the same 50% chance of hitting at the same angular velocity.
something very wrong with that maths as it treats the two things a seperate items rather than the combined effect they have.
and as for there suposed 50% bull**** they need to get ther maths books out again and look into radial maths and physics, the change is not a meer multiple its a culmilitive effect that works more one a gradient curve, example of that is this.
1 x chance to hit
1/4 chance to hit
1/16th chance to hit
and so on
thats what its so hard to hit things with turrets the higher your tracking the less you suffer, butif you slip a little ie projectile turrets you suffer alot.
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Juanita Loup
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Posted - 2004.08.14 22:26:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Grim Vandal
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:46:47
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:45:42
Edited by: Grim Vandal on 14/08/2004 17:44:20
Found the following in an old dev blog!!! here
And I think EXACTLY THESE 2 changes hit the 1400 howitzer I the most:
1) The damage done by a 'normal hit' is no longer 100% damage every time but now simply any hit that does between 75% and 100% damage. The full range remains as it always was, 50% to 150%.
2) The Details of Accuracy
Signature Radius is used for two things. To determine the time it takes to lock the target (along with the targeter's scan resolution), and to determine how hard the ship is to hit while moving.
The difficulty in hitting a target is not based on absolute speed, but rather how quickly you or your target are orbiting. This can be measured in transverse velocity at range (the number in the scanner), in angular velocity (radians per second is the value in turrets), or roughly as Orbits/Rotations over time (RPM).
Ignoring signature radius, a turret with a 0.1 Radians per Second tracking speed will have a 50% chance of hitting a target moving at 0.1 Radians per second angular velocity.
A turret firing on a target with half the signature radius needs twice the tracking speed (0.2) to have the same 50% chance of hitting at the same angular velocity. If the target has twice the signature radius the turret will need half the tracking speed (0.05) to have the same 50% chance of hitting at the same angular velocity.
something very wrong with that maths as it treats the two things a seperate items rather than the combined effect they have.
and as for there suposed 50% bull**** they need to get ther maths books out again and look into radial maths and physics, the change is not a meer multiple its a culmilitive effect that works more one a gradient curve, example of that is this.
1 x chance to hit
1/4 chance to hit
1/16th chance to hit
and so on
thats what its so hard to hit things with turrets the higher your tracking the less you suffer, butif you slip a little ie projectile turrets you suffer alot.
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Meatead
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Posted - 2004.08.14 23:43:00 -
[197]
Before things get out of hand and the thread gets locked or negated as a positive outlook on the state of the pride of the minmater fleet I would like to say to the dev team that they only have to look at the "balance" of tier2 battleships.
I really dont want this thread to turn into an Amarr rules, or Raven pwns you, its more about the offensive vs defensive capability of the tempest compared with all other 100mil+ bs.
Just because the projectile doesnt use any cap argument has gotten really old considering the bonuses cap using guns have coupled with the fact they do more dot. Including major factors that armor tanking is greatly outweighing shield tanking atm and you make the top of the line minmater ship equivalent if not less than a geddon....heck use eve-i.com's ship analogy tool and run a compare on the tempest and geddon and you will see that the geddon is clasified in the final result as a better ship - and this is without the need of tracking enhancers/damage mods which the tempest NEEDS to even compare with any other t2 bs.
This isnt about tempest being flavour of the month, this is about the best ship the minmater have to offer being able to stand toe to toe with an equivalent bs and giving it a run for its money at optimum range - and this atm simply isnt the case.
The last thing I want to see is nerfs to other ships (of similar class at least) and I can handle the "jack of all trades" tag that the tempest has to deal with but atm with the current setup a tempest is nothing more than an over expensive t1 bs with bad tracking and no class defining ability - this is what needs to be addressed/changed.
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Meatead
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Posted - 2004.08.14 23:43:00 -
[198]
Before things get out of hand and the thread gets locked or negated as a positive outlook on the state of the pride of the minmater fleet I would like to say to the dev team that they only have to look at the "balance" of tier2 battleships.
I really dont want this thread to turn into an Amarr rules, or Raven pwns you, its more about the offensive vs defensive capability of the tempest compared with all other 100mil+ bs.
Just because the projectile doesnt use any cap argument has gotten really old considering the bonuses cap using guns have coupled with the fact they do more dot. Including major factors that armor tanking is greatly outweighing shield tanking atm and you make the top of the line minmater ship equivalent if not less than a geddon....heck use eve-i.com's ship analogy tool and run a compare on the tempest and geddon and you will see that the geddon is clasified in the final result as a better ship - and this is without the need of tracking enhancers/damage mods which the tempest NEEDS to even compare with any other t2 bs.
This isnt about tempest being flavour of the month, this is about the best ship the minmater have to offer being able to stand toe to toe with an equivalent bs and giving it a run for its money at optimum range - and this atm simply isnt the case.
The last thing I want to see is nerfs to other ships (of similar class at least) and I can handle the "jack of all trades" tag that the tempest has to deal with but atm with the current setup a tempest is nothing more than an over expensive t1 bs with bad tracking and no class defining ability - this is what needs to be addressed/changed.
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Riggwelter
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Posted - 2004.08.14 23:47:00 -
[199]
I was a little board tonight and trying to decide if i should really exchange my tempest for an Amar ship so did a little maths to work out roughly the minimum speed a ship must be going at your optimal range for you to have a chance to hit. Please note no other factors were considered than the tracking speed of the turret and the optimal range. Heres the list with in order the gun, the optimal range and finally the minimum speed of target the gun can track at optimal range.
Projectile
1400mm 40000m 360m/s
1200mm 28000m 315m/s
800mm 4000m 144m/s
650mm 3600m 144m/s
425mm 3200m 144m/s
Laser
Tachyon 44000m 612m/s
Dual Heavy Beam 35000m 612m/s
Dual Heavy Pulse 25200m 756m/s
Meag Beam 40000m 612m/s
Mega Pulse 28000m 756m/s
Hybrid
425 Rail 48000m 478m/s
350 Rail 36000m 420m/s
Dual 250 Rail 24000m 420m/s
Ion Blaster 5000m 230m/s
Neutron Blaster 6000m 260m/s
Electron Blaster 4000m 184m/s
The first and most obvious think that comes as no surprise is the close range Projectiles. Some stupid Minmatar designer needs the sack for producing a gun that cant track its intended target at optimal range. We all know most battleships are capable of 144 m/s so you cant hit them at the guns optimal range.
This looks like it should also be an issue for Blasters too but they do track better have a bonus for tracking on a mega and have a much higher normalised damage factor to make up for it.
The solution for me would be relatively simple i think an increse in the optimal range of the Projectiles is all that is needed to correct the situation. I would prefer to see at least an increase of 10km on the 1400mm and 1200mm with the optimal on the lows moving up to 12km 800mm 10km 650 and 8km 425.
I really dont see why projectile guns should have such a low tracking ability and also have such low normalised damage factors. Either the damage or the tracking should more than make up for the extra energy other weapons use but both seems to me to be way over the top.
They who shout the loudest normally have the least to say. |
Riggwelter
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Posted - 2004.08.14 23:47:00 -
[200]
I was a little board tonight and trying to decide if i should really exchange my tempest for an Amar ship so did a little maths to work out roughly the minimum speed a ship must be going at your optimal range for you to have a chance to hit. Please note no other factors were considered than the tracking speed of the turret and the optimal range. Heres the list with in order the gun, the optimal range and finally the minimum speed of target the gun can track at optimal range.
Projectile
1400mm 40000m 360m/s
1200mm 28000m 315m/s
800mm 4000m 144m/s
650mm 3600m 144m/s
425mm 3200m 144m/s
Laser
Tachyon 44000m 612m/s
Dual Heavy Beam 35000m 612m/s
Dual Heavy Pulse 25200m 756m/s
Meag Beam 40000m 612m/s
Mega Pulse 28000m 756m/s
Hybrid
425 Rail 48000m 478m/s
350 Rail 36000m 420m/s
Dual 250 Rail 24000m 420m/s
Ion Blaster 5000m 230m/s
Neutron Blaster 6000m 260m/s
Electron Blaster 4000m 184m/s
The first and most obvious think that comes as no surprise is the close range Projectiles. Some stupid Minmatar designer needs the sack for producing a gun that cant track its intended target at optimal range. We all know most battleships are capable of 144 m/s so you cant hit them at the guns optimal range.
This looks like it should also be an issue for Blasters too but they do track better have a bonus for tracking on a mega and have a much higher normalised damage factor to make up for it.
The solution for me would be relatively simple i think an increse in the optimal range of the Projectiles is all that is needed to correct the situation. I would prefer to see at least an increase of 10km on the 1400mm and 1200mm with the optimal on the lows moving up to 12km 800mm 10km 650 and 8km 425.
I really dont see why projectile guns should have such a low tracking ability and also have such low normalised damage factors. Either the damage or the tracking should more than make up for the extra energy other weapons use but both seems to me to be way over the top.
They who shout the loudest normally have the least to say. |
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