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Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.23 20:41:00 - [1201] Originally by: Childstar Ok its ownage time... I am sorry, what is your fit again? (I.E. how much armor do you have to chew through, because that matters)
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.23 20:44:00 - [1202] Just to add that I have a genuine Gist B-Type MWD which will be awarded to the page 50 sniper. NB: NightmareX and alts, and CCP employees are excluded from this offer.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.23 20:44:00 - [1203] Originally by: Childstar Ok its ownage time... I am sorry, what is your fit again? (I.E. how much armor do you have to chew through, because that matters)
Liang Nuren No Salvation Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.03.23 20:50:00 - [1204] Originally by: Malcanis Just to add that I have a genuine Gist B-Type MWD which will be awarded to the page 50 sniper. NB: NightmareX and alts, and CCP employees are excluded from this offer. That's rather too easy. I'll setup a cron job to make the appropriate post. :p -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Childstar	Posted - 2009.03.23 20:56:00 - [1205] Originally by: Electric Universe Use 1 HS II on the Abaddon and one MFS II on a Mega, then take with the drones DPS, and then do the maths on how the DPS is at 4.5 km. Why would anybody wish to gimp the abaddons DMG by only fitting 1 HS when they do not need to?. The abaddon has great armour resists over the entire spectrum with 3 dmg mods, plenty of armour for it to soak up damage while being RR'd. Oh and before i forget it does not have a dirty great hole in its armours explosive resistance like the MEGA does so its actually properly tanked for RR gang combat against ALL races of ships and damage types. Just because the mega has fitting issues as well as being poor in actual gang combat where ALL dmg types will be used no reason to fit the abaddon badly and make you feel better and it look better than it actually is.
Childstar	Posted - 2009.03.23 21:12:00 - [1206] Edited by: Childstar on 23/03/2009 21:14:57 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Childstar Ok its ownage time... I am sorry, what is your fit again? (I.E. how much armor do you have to chew through, because that matters) Why are you going to move the goal posts again?. You tried to include the dmg from thermal drones in you EM % reduction figures. FAILED. You tried to include the thermal dmg from the guns in your EM % reduction figures. FAILED. You tried to convince ppl that the standard fit for RR BS is a 2 x eanm and DCU giving RR ships high laser resistances compared to blasters. FAILED. The only RR ship fits posted on here that can or do actually fit that are the hyperion fit and the abaddon. The rest posted on here have better thermal and kinetic resists. The abaddon has great resists accross the board a good armour buffer for RR and it does NOT have a dirty great hole in its armours explosive resistance so its good at actual multi racial RR PVP instead of being gimped.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.23 21:25:00 - [1207] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Malcanis Just to add that I have a genuine Gist B-Type MWD which will be awarded to the page 50 sniper. NB: NightmareX and alts, and CCP employees are excluded from this offer. That's rather too easy. I'll setup a cron job to make the appropriate post. :p -Liang The fabulous prize on offer is well worth the effort.
Childstar	Posted - 2009.03.23 22:03:00 - [1208] Edited by: Childstar on 23/03/2009 22:06:13 Oh and for anybody who is interested when one of the few ships that actually can like the HYPERION does fit the all singing all dancing full bells and whistles "2 x eanm and DCU omni tank" that is supposed to drive laser ships from the skies in terror with its "35% more resists vs lasers" it gets: With its standard single or twin RR fit the HYPERION actually only gets LESS THAN 5% MORE dmg at its 4.5km optimal vs the equivalant single or dual RR abaddon fit.
Electric Universe Minmatar The Choir	Posted - 2009.03.23 22:04:00 - [1209] Edited by: Electric Universe on 23/03/2009 22:05:23 Originally by: Childstar Edited by: Childstar on 23/03/2009 21:07:50 Originally by: Electric Universe Use 1 HS II on the Abaddon and one MFS II on a Mega, then take with the drones DPS, and then do the maths on how the DPS is at 4.5 km. Why would anybody wish to gimp the abaddons DMG by only fitting 1 HS when they do not need to?. The abaddon has great armour resists over the entire spectrum with 3 dmg mods, plenty of armour for it to soak up damage while being RR'd. Oh and before i forget it does not have a dirty great hole in its armours explosive resistance like the MEGA does so its actually properly tanked for RR gang combat against ALL races of ships and damage types. Just because the mega has fitting issues as well as being poor in actual gang combat where ALL dmg types will be used is no reason to fit the abaddon badly and make you feel better and the mega look better than it actually is. LOLOLOL, this is just getting better and better for every of you replies. Talk aboout someone that doesn't have a clue about comparing things and about gang PVP. I'm lolling again. Just to say it. You either gimp your DPS or you are gimping your EHP advantage. Choose what you want to have as advantage?.
Childstar	Posted - 2009.03.23 22:17:00 - [1210] Originally by: Electric Universe Edited by: Electric Universe on 23/03/2009 22:05:23 Originally by: Childstar Edited by: Childstar on 23/03/2009 21:07:50 Originally by: Electric Universe Use 1 HS II on the Abaddon and one MFS II on a Mega, then take with the drones DPS, and then do the maths on how the DPS is at 4.5 km. Why would anybody wish to gimp the abaddons DMG by only fitting 1 HS when they do not need to?. The abaddon has great armour resists over the entire spectrum with 3 dmg mods, plenty of armour for it to soak up damage while being RR'd. Oh and before i forget it does not have a dirty great hole in its armours explosive resistance like the MEGA does so its actually properly tanked for RR gang combat against ALL races of ships and damage types. Just because the mega has fitting issues as well as being poor in actual gang combat where ALL dmg types will be used is no reason to fit the abaddon badly and make you feel better and the mega look better than it actually is. LOLOLOL, this is just getting better and better for every of you replies. Talk aboout someone that doesn't have a clue about comparing things and about gang PVP. I'm lolling again. Just to say it. You either gimp your DPS or you are gimping your EHP advantage. Choose what you want to have as advantage?. Why do you keep telling ppl they have no clue about gang pvp when you could not even fit a mega or a hyperion for it yesterday... It does not gimp its EHP by fitting 3 HS. 3x HS RR abaddon = 81.3em, 75.7th, 71.9ki, 70.1ex resists with 134,371EHP. Great coverage vs ALL DMG types so it is well suited for actual RR pvp against ALL races and weapons that hit it.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2009.03.23 22:18:00 - [1211] Originally by: Childstar Edited by: Childstar on 23/03/2009 21:23:14 Originally by: Marn Prestoc Ok RR gang, just looking at Aba, Geddon and Mega. RR Tank/Damage RR Tank/Damage 2 till 25km+ Ok i have looked over these graphs and TBH i think they are a rather unrealistic. Firstly the 2 x eanm tank + DCU you act like everybody will be shooting at is only actually used on the RR hyperion. The mega cannot fit it due to CPU issues, the domi and phoon fit shown on here used a mix of active hardeners ect for a much better over all result and the abaddon that also fits it gets a bonus to its armour resists per level. I think you should update the graphs in regards to reasonably available fits for the BS in question including how they would operate in a gang vs gang scenario where multiple racial RR BS are shooting at each other while buddies will be RRing them. You should include the RR ships actual available/normal fits and the resistances each ship actually gets as well as realistic DPS from the amount of dmg mods guns they would have fitted. Your arguement about being unrealistic is about ANP vs EANM? They are both OMNI resistance mods with 5% difference before stacking penalties. If we say all but Domi and Typhoon typically OMNI tank we would agree? With Domi and Typhoon being a pilots choice really, some like a extra plate due to being tier 1 and low raw HP (6k typhoon vs 10k abaddon), same choice of damage mods since not a large effect due to weapon systems. These exact numbers were used and accepted by "boost blaster" posters in other topics so just shows you can't make everyone happy. Would take millions of examples to make everyone happy, because someone would always have an issue with the setups used, be it the damage dealer or the tank shot at. Nothing on paper is 100% accurate, but I was as realistic as possible to show TRENDS. The difference between using a ANP or EANM wouldn't change the trend, just the specific numbers, and I don't think doing 300 dps after res or 280 dps after res will make people go "oh that needs a boost". As far as showing people being RRed, you know thats impossible, that would require a specific situation with numbers of people on both sides to calculate the damage done vs repaired. I provided the RANGE in which the possible damage done by each ship would be, between Tank 1 and Tank 2. The average ship resistance (tank 1) and the armour resistance (tank 2), the more repping hence longer in armour then the more towards tank 2 the damage output becomes. I will agree, this is the worst case scenario for lasors, but it is also most common when talking about BS tanks. Omni tanking is most common and the difference between a ANP and EANM is not going to change the trends shown. What trend is shown? In a RR gang within 10km against OMNI resistance BS's, a Mega's Blasters are the highest damage dealing weapon. Lasors only have the same level of advantage after 25km, with the 10km <-> 20km range being quite even. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar M. Corp	Posted - 2009.03.23 22:39:00 - [1212] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Your arguement about being unrealistic is about ANP vs EANM? They are both OMNI resistance mods with 5% difference before stacking penalties. If we say all but Domi and Typhoon typically OMNI tank we would agree? With Domi and Typhoon being a pilots choice really, some like a extra plate due to being tier 1 and low raw HP (6k typhoon vs 10k abaddon), same choice of damage mods since not a large effect due to weapon systems. These exact numbers were used and accepted by "boost blaster" posters in other topics so just shows you can't make everyone happy. Would take millions of examples to make everyone happy, because someone would always have an issue with the setups used, be it the damage dealer or the tank shot at. Nothing on paper is 100% accurate, but I was as realistic as possible to show TRENDS. The difference between using a ANP or EANM wouldn't change the trend, just the specific numbers, and I don't think doing 300 dps after res or 280 dps after res will make people go "oh that needs a boost". As far as showing people being RRed, you know thats impossible, that would require a specific situation with numbers of people on both sides to calculate the damage done vs repaired. I provided the RANGE in which the possible damage done by each ship would be, between Tank 1 and Tank 2. The average ship resistance (tank 1) and the armour resistance (tank 2), the more repping hence longer in armour then the more towards tank 2 the damage output becomes. I will agree, this is the worst case scenario for lasors, but it is also most common when talking about BS tanks. Omni tanking is most common and the difference between a ANP and EANM is not going to change the trends shown. What trend is shown? In a RR gang within 10km against OMNI resistance BS's, a Mega's Blasters are the highest damage dealing weapon. Lasors only have the same level of advantage after 25km, with the 10km <-> 20km range being quite even. In fact on that scenario the highest damage ships will be typhoons and tempests.Take a classical 1 DC 2 EANM on a raceless ship (not countign any race specific extra resistances to give a generic view). Tempest with 1 siege 1 RR 6 800 MM and 2 damage mods would deal 358 damage after resists WITHOUT DRONES! ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Childstar	Posted - 2009.03.23 22:43:00 - [1213] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Originally by: Childstar Originally by: Marn Prestoc Ok RR gang, just looking at Aba, Geddon and Mega. RR Tank/Damage RR Tank/Damage 2 till 25km+ Ok i have looked over these graphs and TBH i think they are a rather unrealistic. Firstly the 2 x eanm tank + DCU you act like everybody will be shooting at is only actually used on the RR hyperion. The mega cannot fit it due to CPU issues, the domi and phoon fit shown on here used a mix of active hardeners ect for a much better over all result and the abaddon that also fits it gets a bonus to its armour resists per level. I think you should update the graphs in regards to reasonably available fits for the BS in question including how they would operate in a gang vs gang scenario where multiple racial RR BS are shooting at each other while buddies will be RRing them. You should include the RR ships actual available/normal fits and the resistances each ship actually gets as well as realistic DPS from the amount of dmg mods guns they would have fitted. Your arguement about being unrealistic is about ANP vs EANM? No my argument is about such a generalization being used when only one unresistance bonused RR BS regularly fits it. And the numbers given were not these the numbers given were "Blaster get 35% more DMG in optimal than lasers vs OMNI TANKS". It also convieniently ignores the fact that the fit leaves a large explosive hole in most tanks and that is why that all but the hyperion and mega that cannot do anything about it and the abaddon that does not need to because of its bonus choose other styles of omni tank that actually have therm and kinetic as the highest resist and good ex and em. Originally by: Mila Prestoc The difference between using a ANP or EANM wouldn't change the trend, just the specific numbers, and I don't think doing 300 dps after res or 280 dps after res will make people go "oh that needs a boost". Maybe you should read this and other threads as in reality 7% or so more or less dps after resists are taken into account along with other things are what this thread is all about.
Seishomaru	Posted - 2009.03.23 22:44:00 - [1214] Originally by: Electric Universe Edited by: Electric Universe on 23/03/2009 22:16:04 Originally by: Childstar Edited by: Childstar on 23/03/2009 21:07:50 Originally by: Electric Universe Use 1 HS II on the Abaddon and one MFS II on a Mega, then take with the drones DPS, and then do the maths on how the DPS is at 4.5 km. Why would anybody wish to gimp the abaddons DMG by only fitting 1 HS when they do not need to?. The abaddon has great armour resists over the entire spectrum with 3 dmg mods, plenty of armour for it to soak up damage while being RR'd. Oh and before i forget it does not have a dirty great hole in its armours explosive resistance like the MEGA does so its actually properly tanked for RR gang combat against ALL races of ships and damage types. Just because the mega has fitting issues as well as being poor in actual gang combat where ALL dmg types will be used is no reason to fit the abaddon badly and make you feel better and the mega look better than it actually is. LOLOLOL, this is just getting better and better for every of you replies. Talk about someone that doesn't have a clue about comparing things and about gang PVP. I'm lolling again. Just to say it. You either gimp your DPS or you are gimping your EHP advantage. Or you will either have around the same DPS as the Mega but with gimped EHP advantage, or you will have the good EHP advantage but with much lower DPS than the Mega. Choose what you want to have as advantage?. Either you fit one more damage mod than the Mega so you can have around the same DPS as the Mega, but then the Mega can use one more 1600mm plate instead to make it up to your EHP on the Abaddon because the Mega uses 2 damage mods in your comparsion. Or you are fitting 2 damage mods on the Abaddon with the same amount of plates as the Mega have to make your EHP bonus to take place. So at end the ships are more or less balanced DPS wise and HP wise. But abaddon remains with the range advantage and better resists (matter more than EHP when being repaired), also the ship of course being more expensive ship. Don 't see anything wrong there.. but a slight advantage for the ammarian ship.
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.03.23 22:47:00 - [1215] It should be repeated: pure damage advantage of blasters over mega pulse is 16.7% That 16.7% damage advantage is not worth the different in optimal: 4.5km for blasters and 15km for mega pulse. When you consider the volume of optimal range - sphere in influence, the ratio by which mega pulse have more influence is 15^3 * 4.1888 = 14137.2 4.5^3* 4.1888 = 381.7044 14137.2 / 381.7044 = 37 37 times more influence by volume - that is a pretty large difference, it signifies the versatility of a weapon - the more range it has, the more situations it can be used in. The vast majority of short range pvp fall under 20 km bracket. This 20 km number comes mostly from 2 things: the jump in radius from a gate and warp disruptor radius. Of course, if we take falloff into account, then the influence ratio starts looking much better for blasters - tho still clearly inferior to pulse laser. I could see how a 30% raw damage advantage could justify the greatly reduced versatility of blasters, I suppose even 25% would be pretty good. But if I can increase my optimal from 4.5 to 15 km at expense of just 16.7% damage - it'd be pretty dumb not to.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar M. Corp	Posted - 2009.03.23 22:51:00 - [1216] Edited by: Kagura Nikon on 23/03/2009 22:52:31 Originally by: Ephemeron It should be repeated: pure damage advantage of blasters over mega pulse is 16.7% That 16.7% damage advantage is not worth the different in optimal: 4.5km for blasters and 15km for mega pulse. When you consider the volume of optimal range - sphere in influence, the ratio by which mega pulse have more influence is 15^3 * 4.1888 = 14137.2 4.5^3* 4.1888 = 381.7044 14137.2 / 381.7044 = 37 37 times more influence by volume - that is a pretty large difference, it signifies the versatility of a weapon - the more range it has, the more situations it can be used in. The vast majority of short range pvp fall under 20 km bracket. This 20 km number comes mostly from 2 things: the jump in radius from a gate and warp disruptor radius. Of course, if we take falloff into account, then the influence ratio starts looking much better for blasters - tho still clearly inferior to pulse laser. I could see how a 30% raw damage advantage could justify the greatly reduced versatility of blasters, I suppose even 25% would be pretty good. But if I can increase my optimal from 4.5 to 15 km at expense of just 16.7% damage - it'd be pretty dumb not to. well but you are smart enough to know you cannot use that ratio number alone to measure stuff, otherwise 425mm raisl woudl be the best weapon ever :P The balance between range and power is not linear, and very dependent on scenario. And exagerating it does nto yield the best results. The proof is the apocalypse. It has even better ratio of influence against a mega than an abaddon has. But what ship is selected in a normal pulse laser role? Not the APOC. The range is a great advantage but cannot be looked linearly, because there is a lot of times they mean very little (while other times they mean everything) ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Childstar	Posted - 2009.03.23 22:59:00 - [1217] Originally by: Ephemeron It should be repeated: pure damage advantage of blasters over mega pulse is 16.7% That 16.7% damage advantage is not worth the different in optimal: 4.5km for blasters and 15km for mega pulse. While i agree its not enough you need to factor in the availability of fittings and the abilities of the available ships for these systems. For instance if all BS blaster ships can only fit a realistic max of 2 DMG mods due to CPU and tank/mid slot requirements(and that is quite accurate tbh) that 16.7% is suddenly a 0 or minus number when compared with a race that has a ship that can easily accomodate 3 dmg mods and a simular or even better tank.
Electric Universe Minmatar The Choir	Posted - 2009.03.23 23:01:00 - [1218] Edited by: Electric Universe on 23/03/2009 23:03:01 Originally by: Childstar Originally by: Electric Universe Edited by: Electric Universe on 23/03/2009 22:05:23 Originally by: Childstar Edited by: Childstar on 23/03/2009 21:07:50 Originally by: Electric Universe Use 1 HS II on the Abaddon and one MFS II on a Mega, then take with the drones DPS, and then do the maths on how the DPS is at 4.5 km. Why would anybody wish to gimp the abaddons DMG by only fitting 1 HS when they do not need to?. The abaddon has great armour resists over the entire spectrum with 3 dmg mods, plenty of armour for it to soak up damage while being RR'd. Oh and before i forget it does not have a dirty great hole in its armours explosive resistance like the MEGA does so its actually properly tanked for RR gang combat against ALL races of ships and damage types. Just because the mega has fitting issues as well as being poor in actual gang combat where ALL dmg types will be used is no reason to fit the abaddon badly and make you feel better and the mega look better than it actually is. LOLOLOL, this is just getting better and better for every of you replies. Talk aboout someone that doesn't have a clue about comparing things and about gang PVP. I'm lolling again. Just to say it. You either gimp your DPS or you are gimping your EHP advantage. Choose what you want to have as advantage?. Why do you keep telling ppl they have no clue about gang pvp when you could not even fit a mega or a hyperion for it yesterday... It does not gimp its EHP by fitting 3 HS. 3x HS RR abaddon = 81.3em, 75.7th, 71.9ki, 70.1ex resists with 134,371EHP. Great coverage vs ALL DMG types so it is well suited for actual RR pvp against ALL races and weapons that hit it. The only reason i did not find a setup to the Megathron so it could compare to the tripple HS II fitted Abaddon was ONLY because you was EFTing just to find a setup that an Abaddon could fit while the Mega couldn't fit the same type of modules. Your comparing a tier 3 ship to a tier 2 ship though. Just remember that the Abaddon both have more CPU and more powergrid than the Mega. So either compare with a setup that both ships can fit without any problems and with the same med and low slot. So we can see the real stats on the ships. But you are just comparing a tripple HS II fitted Abaddon to the 2x MFS II fitted Mega ONLY to prove that the Abaddon have around the same DPS and around the same EHP as the Mega. So in this case you either have to choose if you want to take use of the extra EHP the Abaddon gets for the extra 25% resist bonus it have, or you have to gimp the EHP for more DPS so it can compare to the DPS a mega have. That's why it's stupid.
Ephemeron North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.03.23 23:13:00 - [1219] Kagura Nikon, I was specifically referring to short range weapons and engagements If 99% of fights happen in 40km radius, getting weapon that has more than 40km radius is not going to be worth sacrificing any damage. In my experience, small gang warfare fights that result in kills have this kind of distribution: 0-5 km: 10% 5-10 km: 25% 10-15 km: 30% 15-20 km: 25% 20+ km: 10% this is a very rough estimate, but if you have experience, you will agree that it is something along those lines. Having good damage output at 15km is about the most valuable asset in combat.
Childstar	Posted - 2009.03.23 23:16:00 - [1220] Originally by: Electric Universe The only reason i did not find a setup to the Megathron so it could compare to the tripple HS II fitted Abaddon was ONLY because you was EFTing just to find a setup that an Abaddon could fit while the Abaddon could fit. Your comparing a tier 3 ship to a tier 2 ship though. Just remember that the Abaddon both have more CPU and more powergrid than the Mega. So either compare with a setup that both ships can fit without any problems and with the same med and low slot. So we can see the real stats on the ships. I know what the ships have, i know what tier they are and i know that the abaddon has more CPU and PG. I also know that it is a AVAILABLE ship for a amarr pilot to fly and fit and it is the one i have chosen because it is the most in the effective RR ship in the amarr fleet fitted as i have done it. Its EHP is fine if not better compared to the megas because it does not have a 47.8% hole in its explosive resists like the mega does. So in actual RR gang combat the abaddon is going to tank a gang of multiple race ships much easier than the mega, especially as the missile ships will always have explosive loaded and the mini ships guns do mostly explosive dmg as well.
Liang Nuren No Salvation Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.03.23 23:22:00 - [1221] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 23/03/2009 23:22:58 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Ephemeron Kagura Nikon, I was specifically referring to short range weapons and engagements If 99% of fights happen in 40km radius, getting weapon that has more than 40km radius is not going to be worth sacrificing any damage. In my experience, small gang warfare fights that result in kills have this kind of distribution: 0-5 km: 10% 5-10 km: 25% 10-15 km: 30% 15-20 km: 25% 20+ km: 10% this is a very rough estimate, but if you have experience, you will agree that it is something along those lines. Having good damage output at 15km is about the most valuable asset in combat. Yes, pretty much reasonable values. What i wanted to point is that the coverage factor you used cannot be looked as a lonely number. You must be aware that in a lot of scenarios it will be helping you in almost nothing. So the whole number crunshing must be taken with a grain of salt from both sides. That's true, but if the Mega only has an advantage in < 5km ranges, then it has the advantage 10% of the time to the Abaddon's 90% of the time. Just sayin'. I'm also dubious to the assumption that the mega and abaddon rr gangs are intertwined ... in my experience this doesn't happen all that often, and the ability to shoot futher than 10km is something essential. But then again, I haven't read the whole thread (or even a noticeable percentage of it). -Liang Ed: Page 40 Synpa! Only 10 more to go! -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Kagura Nikon Minmatar M. Corp	Posted - 2009.03.23 23:27:00 - [1222] Maybe its not that simple. Now compare the speed difference between abaddon and mega. Mega is quite faster. So fight will usually end at megatron best range. The question remains, can he close up fast enough to compensate abaddon advantage at medium range? That is a pretty complicated calculation in fact. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Childstar	Posted - 2009.03.23 23:40:00 - [1223] Edited by: Childstar on 23/03/2009 23:45:45 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Maybe its not that simple. Now compare the speed difference between abaddon and mega. Mega is quite faster. So fight will usually end at megatron best range. The question remains, can he close up fast enough to compensate abaddon advantage at medium range? That is a pretty complicated calculation in fact. In a gang fight EVERY MEGA would need to burn towards EVERY primary target and get within 4.5km as soon that target became primary and do so as quickly as possable, as every volley the megas fire outside 4.5km they are getting reduced DPS and the farther out from 4.5km they are the greater reduction is.
Liang Nuren No Salvation Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.03.23 23:50:00 - [1224] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Maybe its not that simple. Now compare the speed difference between abaddon and mega. Mega is quite faster. So fight will usually end at megatron best range. The question remains, can he close up fast enough to compensate abaddon advantage at medium range? That is a pretty complicated calculation in fact. Well that kind of thinking only holds up in a 1v1 .... in a fleet, the answer is quite obviously not in favor of short range. :) -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Kagura Nikon Minmatar M. Corp	Posted - 2009.03.23 23:52:00 - [1225] Originally by: Childstar Edited by: Childstar on 23/03/2009 23:45:45 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Maybe its not that simple. Now compare the speed difference between abaddon and mega. Mega is quite faster. So fight will usually end at megatron best range. The question remains, can he close up fast enough to compensate abaddon advantage at medium range? That is a pretty complicated calculation in fact. In a gang fight EVERY MEGA would need to burn towards EVERY primary target and get within 4.5km as soon that target became primary and do so as quickly as possable, as every volley the megas fire outside 4.5km they are getting reduced DPS and the farther out from 4.5km they are the greater reduction is. I am just raising the question. You are trying to answer it. And I again say. It s more complicated. each scenario is different. Depend on gang size and deployment. On the 1v1 extreme the mega has advantage.. that drops more and more while the gang size raises. I have few doubts that 50 pulse ships can wipe the floor with 50 blaster ships. Possibly killing half of them even before they have to switch from scorch to MF. But again, that is only 1 of the infinite number of scenarios. Contrary to Goum, I do believe you must take into account the enemy stupidity. The more time you pass on eve the more you realize how 3/4 of players are not exactly bright. So the best scenario may be wildly different from the worse scenario. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Electric Universe Minmatar The Choir	Posted - 2009.03.24 00:00:00 - [1226] Edited by: Electric Universe on 24/03/2009 00:05:26 Anyways. Whatever the stats the Abaddon or the Mega have, it doesn't change the fact that a Blaster Megathrons is used waaaaaaay way more than Abaddons in gangs when it's about RRing. That fact can't be changed. Blaster Megathrons are the most popular gank RR gang ship in low sec and empire today. And that's enough to show that Blaster Megas are fine and are working good. If Abaddons would be so much better, then why is not most of those Blaster pilots in Abaddons then?. They have had years to cross train to Amarr if they wanted to go there. But no, it's not happening as peoples says here. It doesn't takes years to cross train from Gallente to Amarr anyways. And why would i train for Amarr when Gallente and Minmatar have the coolest ships and extremely good solo / small & med size gang ships in the game?. I'm not the person who are looking after the ship with the best stats, just so i can do some e-peen stroking about the ship i have. I'm after the ship that works very good in a RR gang and that are very fun to use. Amarr is easy mode, and that means booooooooooorrriiiing.
Childstar	Posted - 2009.03.24 00:29:00 - [1227] Originally by: Kagura Nikon I am just raising the question. You are trying to answer it. And I again say. It s more complicated. each scenario is different. Depend on gang size and deployment. On the 1v1 extreme the mega has advantage.. Maybe although you must factor the dmg it recieves while approaching and how much it will have left and if it will give it enough time to get through the abaddons tank before it pops. Then you have tracking ect but a good BS pilot will counter web and burn in a str8 line to reduce that anyway and its not like webbed BS even when comparing the mega and abaddon are exactly nimble. But thats 1 v 1 crap and not a likely or reaslitic measure anyway. Originally by: Kagura Nikon I have few doubts that 50 pulse ships can wipe the floor with 50 blaster ships. Possibly killing half of them even before they have to switch from scorch to MF. But again, that is only 1 of the infinite number of scenarios. Its all relative to dmg and tank even in a 50 vs 50 racial fight the abaddons do not need to kill close to half on approach to gain a overwhelming advantage. Firstly depending on the tank fit of the abaddons they can either have a 3% advantage per ship in DPS using MF against AM even at the megas 4.5 optimal and thats after each ships resists have been taken into account and against equal numbers. Or they can be fitted slightly differantly and have a much larger EHP tank compared to the megas but have 5% per ship less DPS after resists than the megas in the megas 4.5km optimal using MF against AM. Also again all the megas need to be at 4.5km from each and every primary to be doing their max available DPS. Also factor in that in a 50 vs 50 fight every ship the abaddons kill on approach is 2% less DPS they are gaurenteed not to ever recieve from the mega gang. So realistically its not like the abaddons need to kill many ships before the abaddons have a large DPS advantage along with their already large EHP advantage. Those little details is always lost/ignored by the "blasterz iz uber" crowd mostly because they have never flown them and only look at the raw stats of how much dmg 10 or 20 or 50 blaster BS will do.
Childstar	Posted - 2009.03.24 00:33:00 - [1228] Originally by: Electric Universe If Abaddons would be so much better, then why is not most of those Blaster pilots in Abaddons then?. They have had years to cross train to Amarr if they wanted to go there. But no, it's not happening as peoples says here. It doesn't takes years to cross train from Gallente to Amarr anyways. It has not been years stop lying, and i have only just finished cross training over myself and i had all the tertiary gunnery and PG/CPU ect skills done before i decided to do it.
Electric Universe Minmatar The Choir	Posted - 2009.03.24 00:46:00 - [1229] Edited by: Electric Universe on 24/03/2009 00:46:03 Originally by: Childstar Originally by: Electric Universe If Abaddons would be so much better, then why is not most of those Blaster pilots in Abaddons then?. They have had years to cross train to Amarr if they wanted to go there. But no, it's not happening as peoples says here. It doesn't takes years to cross train from Gallente to Amarr anyways. It has not been years stop lying, and i have only just finished cross training over myself and i had all the tertiary gunnery and PG/CPU ect skills done before i decided to do it. So tell me exacly how long time it is since the Lasers got the tracking boost?. Also when Lasers got boosted. It was after that the FOTM warriors started to praise Amarr up to the sky. Stop lying your self maybe?.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2009.03.24 01:39:00 - [1230] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Don't agree 1 little bit. 2 Gyros Tempest is not comparable to a 2 MFS Mega. The tanks are widely different (~95k EHP vs ~115k EHP). 1 Gyro Tempest is the equivelent setup to a Mega. You've also used Hail and not mentioned it, which is a huge factor because it turns AC's into worse optimal and falloff than blasters, and worse tracking than lasers. So if anything is going to lose damage due to those factors, the ACs with Hail will do first, losing its damage type advantage. 1 Gyro Tempest (still with Hail) does less damage (~300 vs ~325) than 2 MFS Mega. No drones were included here or in the graphs, hence the Mega still has a 50m3 drone advantage yet to include for its total damage (since we included seige launcher). Originally by: Childstar Did you not read my explanation and list of OMNI tanking ships? More than 1 ship OMNI tanks... to say otherwise is blatent lying. At least put an explanation for no OMNI tanking Mega, Abaddon, Geddon, Tempest, evidence would be amazing to. I have never brought up that arguement, although looking at the graph the peak difference between geddon and Mega does appear to be about 25%. Between 7 turret Abaddon and Mega about 35%. The range at which the same level of advantage is reversed comes after 20km. Thats about 10km of superiority, 10km of similar levels of performance then the lasers have 20km of superiority, but personally for me superiority in 20-40km is less valuable than 0-10km. But then I use AC's so used to not having superiority at any range :p. As i've just replied to Kagura above, the best Exp damage dealer does less than the Mega, at less range, with less tracking, unless you fly it like a tin can. 7% more or less dps compared to other ships. But the difference in changing a EANM to ANP increases the DPS of ALL ships shooting the target and not just one. Originally by: Ephemeron Depends on the type of gang, BS gangs i'd say its more <15km. For Recon/Hac gangs I'd say its more 20km+ engagement range, 10-15km you have overloaded webs+WS to avoid. Although you did say kills so 10-15km probably is right since thats where you catch the small ships that stray to close. The problem with the sphere of influence calculation is because your using volume it really punishes any inaccuracy and the numbers get exponentially larger. You mention taking falloff into account, if you were to say 9km, thats 3053.6352 cubes so Pulse sphere of influence is now only 4.5 times more rather than 37, which is a huge difference. I place more value on <20km than >20km. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.

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