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ECM Ships - Looking at better defined roles

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 7 post(s)
BoB's Dream	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:54:00 - [691] Script range/strength for ECM is a good idea.
Olivor	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:56:00 - [692] Hmm... Well, I don't quite get the Scorp changes, if it's now got to be 'close' range and isn't going to get any sort of improved tank it's going to get toasted. Regarding the Rook again I don't get why it doesn't get some sort of tank, plus, if it has to be close range... a missile velocity bonus?! Okay, maybe getting to the edge of your extended Heavy Assault missile range will be good but why not put in something more... useful?
AZN Steve	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:56:00 - [693] oh and nerf caldari much ?
supr3m3justic3 Caldari GANK STARZ	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:58:00 - [694] "the low slots could be used for tanking for example." I'm sure this has already been said. But if this is your overall plan, i hope you plan on adding another low slot to the falcon and rook. Or i would like a suggested "low slot tank set up" with 3 low slots. But other than that i like the idea. Cause i'll still fly a vaga :) ____ New Sig Under Construction!!
Jack Gilligan Dragon's Rage Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.03.25 20:01:00 - [695] Gee, thanks Devs for listening to all the whiners and nerfing to uselessness the last Caldari ships that are of any use in PVP, since you made missiles EVEN WORSE than they were prior to the nano nerf. Glad I trained for Gallente HACs/recons. I'm going to make sure my Falcons die before this mega nerf. --- My opinions are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my corp or alliance.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.03.25 20:03:00 - [696] Edited by: Yakov Draken on 25/03/2009 20:03:55 Originally by: TheLibrarian Edited by: TheLibrarian on 25/03/2009 19:01:28 FALCON GETS A BUFF WITH THE NEW UPDATE! CCP Chronotis: The falcon is the "sniper" of the two ECM roles having less ECM strength and more ECM range. Falcon: Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 20% Bonus to ECM Target Jammer Optimal Range per level 10% Bonus to Medium Hybrid Optimal Range per level Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level Attribute Changes: +1 turret hardpoint / -1 launcher hardpoint I don't think you got the bonus's right there Lib. Isn't the latest proposal for the Falcon +15% jamming strength (down from 20%) plus no boost from SDA's meaning a total bonus of up to +75% jamming strength instead of +100% plus SDA's for up to around +50% more. Combine this with s*ping falloff and optimal (is this still happening?) meaning more misses on jams and I'm still fairly optimistic. Can someone confirm wether or not the SDA changes (jam strength to jam range) and optimal falloff s* are still going through. Bottomline is that Falcons need to be nerfed. They have been overpowered for a long time now and they kill the fun. They might work ok in 0.0 (dunno) but in low sec they are often present in large enough numbers to mean that no-one on your side can get a lock even with ECCM. Since this means fight over and time to de-aggro it is simply a combat killer. Won't it be nice to run around in small cruiser gangs without the knowledge that just one Falcon and your gang can't lock anything? Falcons have driven small ships with low sensor strengths out of the competition.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.03.25 20:03:00 - [697] Chronitis, please keep in mind that the main issue invulnerability due to range/cloak (without targeting delay). Only the big fat blobs of sniper ships in 0.0 have a reliable counter, the beauty of making the non-cloaker (Rook) be long range is that you impose a targeting delay if it choses to use cloak and that it can be probed out (ie. warped to). Outside of the 0.0 blob environ ECM ranges above 100-150km become game breaking as there are no sniper fleets and no more 10k/s ships. Also think hard about how many ships the individual ECM boat should be able to "remove" from a fight and include that in the balancing. No other eWar platforms can impact so many ships at once. The other Recons can't even operate at >50km, much less 150-200km. And believe it or not they die just as easily as the Caldari ships when targeted .. difference is they have been used to buffering since forever to have half a chance at performing their function. Gallente, Amarr and Matar have been making hard choices when fitting their Recons, often on an individual engagement basis, isn't it about time that the Caldari get the same pleasure ? In Summation: Let them retain (some of) their range if they are willing to sacrifice efficiency and survivability for it, but open the door for balls-to-the-wall jamming with short-range/high-strength buffer tanks. PS: Give ECCM a 50-100% boost while you are at it. It is a completely pointless module on anything sub-BS currently due to relatively low sensor strength on smaller vessels.
DiseL Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates	Posted - 2009.03.25 20:11:00 - [698] First of all the comparisons to other recons should stop. Just because they are all in the recon group does not mean they should all be the same. Why do people keep using the phrase "solo Falcon"? When has anyone ever seen a Falcon solo anything in Eve that wasn't a complete fluke? ECM is chance based and every other recon's ewar is 100% effective when applied to a target ship. In a small fleet engagement with all four races of recons present what will the primary be? Falcon/Rook of course. A Falcon will never be able to hold down a target and apply enough dps to kill it ever. Any of the other three recons can do this albeit with limitations. Whoever the guy was that stated the Falcon could fit a massive armor tank with a 1600mm plate and 2x EANM must be smoking something. Since when is 23k EHP with a low resist of 43% explosive a massive tank? The Arazu and Pilgrim can doulbe that EHP while completely locking down a target ship. The Rapier has a weak tank but 1000m/s more speed as a counter. Regardless of what all the whiners say a Falcon/Rook never permajams everything. You bring them in close and they become absolutely suicidal in any situation other than very small gang warfare. If you don't have enough ECM to permajam everything in the hostile fleet you can plan on losing all your ECM boats every engagement. As for the Raven and Cerb still being great long range snipers because they do max damage at max ranges, well your right if your hitting a stationary target. Once they start moving damage goes down significantly. Correct, the Rokh is still the best uber-long range sniper but with minimal dps. So Caldari now is relegated to the sniper race. If this was really the case why are fleet engagements severely lacking in Caldari ships? Every single nerf/buff has been overboard and then leads to another for balancing. Stop screwing with the game and making major changes for god's sake!
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.03.25 20:22:00 - [699] Originally by: DiseL As for the Raven and Cerb still being great long range snipers because they do max damage at max ranges, well your right if your hitting a stationary target. Once they start moving damage goes down significantly. Correct, the Rokh is still the best uber-long range sniper but with minimal dps. So Caldari now is relegated to the sniper race. If this was really the case why are fleet engagements severely lacking in Caldari ships? This is simply not true. Fit up a Torp Raven and go melt face. HAM Drakes are a solid BC's and the best 1v1 BC in the game. Plus the Scorpian looks really nice to me after the changes and the BB will remain a damn fine low sp ship.
Jalif Minmatar Black Sinisters	Posted - 2009.03.25 20:32:00 - [700] Originally by: Yakov Draken Originally by: DiseL As for the Raven and Cerb still being great long range snipers because they do max damage at max ranges, well your right if your hitting a stationary target. Once they start moving damage goes down significantly. Correct, the Rokh is still the best uber-long range sniper but with minimal dps. So Caldari now is relegated to the sniper race. If this was really the case why are fleet engagements severely lacking in Caldari ships? This is simply not true. Fit up a Torp Raven and go melt face. HAM Drakes are a solid BC's and the best 1v1 BC in the game. Plus the Scorpian looks really nice to me after the changes and the BB will remain a damn fine low sp ship. Not to forget the harpy, crow, which are able to solo pvp very effective. Caldari people should stop whining and start thinking tbfh. \|Black Sinisters\|
Hun Jakuza 24th Imperial Guard	Posted - 2009.03.25 20:34:00 - [701] Need more optimal nerf. We dont wanna ship which can jamming out sentry range with full str. Well done CCP.
Pimparella	Posted - 2009.03.25 20:47:00 - [702] @topic your ideas suck. for real. start increasing the effectnes of th dampers, target painters and turret destabelizers, or stfu. first the speed nerf and now this. if you want everyone in battleships, just delete the other ships and let the game die.
Liang Nuren No Salvation Blackguard Coalition	Posted - 2009.03.25 20:47:00 - [703] Chronitis, Right now, the maximum jamming strength of a Falcon/Rook with 3 SDA's is about 14-15 (14.7 IIRC). With the changes specified in the OP, the maximum attainable jamming strength is going down really rather significantly. I think we'll see 10.125 as the maximum jamming strength from a brawler ship (such as the Scorpion/Rook). This is not really high enough to justify bringing the ship (IMO). 3.6 Racial ECM II Base * (1 + .05 * 5) (Sig Dispersion 5) * (1 + .25 * 5) (Recon Ships 5) = 10.125 In order to maintain current strength of jamming on brawler ships (which I think is reasonable), you need a 45% strength bonus per level. >>> ((14.7 / (3.61.25)) - 1) / 5.0 0.45333333333333331 >>> 3.6 (1 + .05 * 5) * (1 + .45 * 5) 14.625 I know in the OP you said that you guys want to make sig distortion amps affect range instead of strength, but you want to move the strength into the ships or mod - but what is your target jamming strength for a max skilled pilot flying a "brawler"? Without this vital piece of information, everyone's really just **ing in the wind. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Vukk Yu	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:00:00 - [704] Originally by: Pimparella @topic your ideas suck. for real. start increasing the effectnes of th dampers, target painters and turret destabelizers, or stfu. first the speed nerf and now this. if you want everyone in battleships, just delete the other ships and let the game die. and how does this relate to the topic of balancing ecm? why dont you take your own advice. the stfu part.
MYSTERY ALT	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:01:00 - [705] I'd love to see the rook become a useful caldari gang/solo PVP, close up "brawler" kinda boat instead of the scorp (its a fleet boat, come on). I really couldn't care about the falcon (but i agree it needs to be nerfed in some reasonable way, its just way overpowered, also its a force recon, not a combat recon, whatÆs the deal with trying to give it some sort of buffed pvp capability when it's simply not its role). Give the rook some DPS (preferably with something caldari related like missiles, not drones), a fitting buff (room for tackle or something? I don't know) and a little more survivability, then completely kill its long range capability (missile velocity bonus? longer range stuff should be left to the falcon, cerb, scorp and rokh). Im pretty tired off the whole long range "one with the flock" caldari speciality thing, the rook would be a perfect boat to make caldari a fun race to fly again.

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:05:00 - [706] Keep the good feedback coming. It is good to see such a varied range of opinions as ECM and ECM specialised ships and how the proposed changes affect their roles in different scenarios and more importantly the balance between preventing and encouraging fights which is equally loved or hated. Currently we have two sets of different Caldari recon changes which either significantly change their roles (as we originally proposed changing the falcon to close range to account for the power of its covert ops role and rook to longer range to increase its usefulness) or reduce their ranged ECM effectiveness overall in lieu of other bonuses to give them a better more balanced role than just "jam to the max". Thus shifting them to behave less like ultra niche ships and more like recons were better intended whilst still allowing for the lack of secondary EWAR system bonus to caldari recons. An additional change to my previous posts we are looking at playtesting soon, we have split the ECM optimal bonuses on the Falcon and Blackbird to be optimal and falloff. With the Falcon currently gaining 12.5% ECM optimal and falloff range per level and the Blackbird 10% per level. In addition we are looking at the difference between the "brawling" (must find a better term for this :p) ECM strengths and ranges and the longer range sniper ships. It is quite likely we will be making further changes in this area in addition to considering more if the power of the covert ops cloak ability is really adequately balanced between the falcon and rook where we just reduce their current ECM effectiveness as opposed to switching the falcon to short range. Hope that leaves you with some more insight into where we are currently at with internal playtesting and balancing. As always, I will sign off with reminding you that these changes are not set in stone and will continue to change

Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:11:00 - [707] Originally by: Pimparella @topic your ideas suck. for real. start increasing the effectnes of th dampers, target painters and turret destabelizers, or stfu. first the speed nerf and now this. if you want everyone in battleships, just delete the other ships and let the game die. Here is the problem in low-sec. Because of the prevalence of Falcon alts and Falcon pilots, flying anything OTHER than a Battleship or Recon is very difficult. Why? Because you need high sensor strength ships, with dual ECCMs just to counter a couple Falcons. Fact is, Falcons are doing the work of putting more people into bigger ships. Tbh, and we should be honest with ourselves, Falcons currently nerf smaller ships. And I'm sorry if you've spent the time to train an alt just for a Falcon. This is an MMO, things need to be balanced and rebalanced constantly. While I agree the OTHER recons and ewar mods need to be looked at for a boost, Falcons have needed a nerf for awhile. -Karlemgne My sig don't fracking work.
Yunaka Vicc	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:15:00 - [708] Edited by: Yunaka Vicc on 25/03/2009 21:15:16 Quote: Falcon: 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level Rook: 25% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level ECM strength becomes too low even with 2 rigs. Any change can help: - add 5% to per level strength bonuses for both ship. - remove overload stacking.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:16:00 - [709] Edited by: Esmenet on 25/03/2009 21:17:04 Originally by: CCP Chronotis Currently we have two sets of different Caldari recon changes which either significantly change their roles (as we originally proposed changing the falcon to close range to account for the power of its covert ops role and rook to longer range to increase its usefulness) or reduce their ranged ECM effectiveness overall in lieu of other bonuses to give them a better more balanced role than just "jam to the max". Thus shifting them to behave less like ultra niche ships and more like recons were better intended whilst still allowing for the lack of secondary EWAR system bonus to caldari recons. There is no "balanced" role for a specialised ewar ship like falcons. If its ecm is effective its going to get primaried nomatter what, and if it dont have range its just an expensive explosion. Go with a blackbird instead as it will explode anyway, and the blackbird is close to zero cost. If its not effective the falcon is just a waste of space that could be taken by a dps ship (HAC or BS depending on the gang). Look at the other recons and see how (little) they are used and try to figure out why. And yea this is my sig.
Sebea Bottomfeeders Science and Research	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:20:00 - [710] Whatever you do to them, you need to bring their range in. It wouldn't matter so much if they weren't always so damn far away from the fight. In low sec pirate Falcons engage without fear of sentry fire. In 0.0 the falcon hovers near 220-240 range jamming happily away from anything that could ever touch it. We lost a whole class of ship (Nano Cruisers) because they were considered unbalanced and unfair, giving too much of an advantage to those wanting to disengage. When does the falcon start to fall into that category?? I know its not a "nano" boat per se, but it allows its user virutal immunity to any form of attack because of its jams, and its long range ability. I know, I know, they have crappy tanks, well, tbh, if you let a player cross the 200km to your falcon, you should probably stop sucking in a falcon.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:21:00 - [711] Originally by: CCP Chronotis In addition we are looking at the difference between the "brawling" (must find a better term for this :p) ECM strengths and ranges and the longer range sniper ships. It is quite likely we will be making further changes in this area in addition to considering more if the power of the covert ops cloak ability is really adequately balanced between the falcon and rook where we just reduce their current ECM effectiveness as opposed to switching the falcon to short range. The problem is that no matter how you define the term there are no such things as "brawling" recons. They are just not worth using at close ranges. I mean its not like the scorpoin and rook have not been around for the last few years or not been available. These ships were here and easily fittable but were never used because at close range damage and tank rule without oposition and that was with ECM at the STR it is now on TQ. That is why the other recons are not used in gang combat and why the only recon that was used was the falcon because its all about range and usefulness. A recon that gets primaried and dies or primaried and has to warp off is of 0 use and that is why those that work at close range are NEVER used in gang combat. Remove the falcons range ect and nobody will fly it as its better to have a extra monster tanked damage dealer along instead, especially considering you no longer need to worry about getting jammed anymore...
Mistress Frome SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:31:00 - [712] Edited by: Mistress Frome on 25/03/2009 21:35:23 The newer rook looks hilariously awesome. should give it 2 more lows so I could fit a third bcs and a dcu imo >_> ---
Childstar	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:31:00 - [713] Originally by: Sebea Whatever you do to them, you need to bring their range in. It wouldn't matter so much if they weren't always so damn far away from the fight. In low sec pirate Falcons engage without fear of sentry fire. In 0.0 the falcon hovers near 220-240 range jamming happily away from anything that could ever touch it. We lost a whole class of ship (Nano Cruisers) because they were considered unbalanced and unfair, giving too much of an advantage to those wanting to disengage. When does the falcon start to fall into that category?? I know its not a "nano" boat per se, but it allows its user virutal immunity to any form of attack because of its jams, and its long range ability. I know, I know, they have crappy tanks, well, tbh, if you let a player cross the 200km to your falcon, you should probably stop sucking in a falcon. Every ship with the ability to snipe has the immunity you are talking about and like the sniper it a has no use without close range support not only to tackle the target ship like the snipers need but also to actually do damage and kill it... Its a gang ship and needing a gang to operate is its flaw.
FraXy 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:32:00 - [714] You spend all this time thinking about how to reduce the Falcon's range so it can be shot, have lower efficiency while balancing all the other ECM ships to perform their role better. You plan to update Sisi to test the changes, read player feedback on how they perceive ECM to be and make adjustments. Yet you put yourself in this situation in the past by nerfing Remote Sensor Dampeners effectiveness on ships including Gallente Recons. During the same patch and do pardon me if i am mistaken. You boosted ECM effectiveness overall. Please call me if i am wrong on that last one. You spend all this effort trying to balance the mechanic, but fail to see that the mechanic is the core of the problem. Players have said time and time again. A single module that shuts down a ship for 20 seconds is too strong. During those 20 seconds what can you do? Being jammed doesn't reduce your tactical options, it gives you only one. Pray. Last time i did a test i had a ship with 184 sensor strength vs 13.56 jamming strength (13.57% chance of success). I managed to get 60% hit rate over 20 tests before i scrapped the idea of sensor strength overload to counter ECM. Target Painters increase signature by a fixed % (can be estimated by ship opponent along with specialization skill). Tracking Disruptors reduce Optimal/Falloff or Tracking by a fixed % (can be estimated by ship opponent along with specialization skill). Remote Sensor Dampeners reduce Targeting Range or Scan Resolution by a fixed % (can be estimated by ship opponent along with specialization skill). Electronic Counter Measure shuts down a ship entirely based on ECM strength vs Sensor Strength probability math (commonly known as dice-rolling). Description of ECM - Ion Field Projector II: Projects a low intensity field of ionized particles to disrupt the effectivenes of enemy sensors. Very effective against Magnetometric-based sensors. There are means to counter every other form of Electronic Warfare module. By using Sensor Boosters, Signal Amplifiers, Tracking Computers, Tracking Enhancers, not using Shield Extenders, Shield rigs, Microwarpdrive... Only way to "counter" ECM is to fit an ECCM or Backup Array and pray to whichever god you belive in that this time. This time i'm the lucky one. Guess again.. When will you realise ECM as a mechanic is utterly broken? We have heard promises of subsystem targeting, Black Ops fixes, Tech 3 which will further enhance tactical decisions, but it's all a hoax. I've realised i was having faith in vain over the years. Mark my words and the ones before me: ECM always have and will always be broken if it continues to be based if "this is your day". With kind regards, FraXy One man's junk is FraXy's choice of weapon to kill you with.
GTC seller72	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:41:00 - [715] Edited by: GTC seller72 on 25/03/2009 21:46:14 Originally by: FraXy . Last time i did a test i had a ship with 184 sensor strength vs 13.56 jamming strength (13.57% chance of success). I managed to get 60% hit rate over 20 tests before i scrapped the idea of sensor strength overload to counter ECM. With 184 sensor str a ecm ship 18.4 jam str would be a 10% chance to jam (and they cannot get 18.4 jam str), so your figures are wrong for a start as it = 7.36% chance to jam with 13.56 jam str vs 184 sig str. Oh and id like to see the fraps of those jams and 20 cycles as i do not believe you in the least that you got a 60% hit rate as that is 12 jams out of 20 when the odds are you would get less than 2 out of 20..
Vaedian GER Excidium.	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:45:00 - [716] Stop making the Falcon the Sniper. That part is the source of the entire problem. If you can warp cloaked to a safe spot outside normal agression range and jam somewhat well you will never ever use the Rook or Scorpion! 12.5% Optimal & Falloff Bonus won't change the current situation at all.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:45:00 - [717] Originally by: FraXy There are means to counter every other form of Electronic Warfare module. By using Sensor Boosters, Signal Amplifiers, Tracking Computers, Tracking Enhancers, not using Shield Extenders, Shield rigs, Microwarpdrive... Oh how often do you fit a sensor booster thinking you really need one incase you run into an arazu(if it even bothers to fit damps)? Its not really counters, just modules you use to optimize your ship for your given role. If you want a sniper ship you fit a sensor booster with range script or you cant snipe. So if you would get dampened at that range the sensor booster would not counter ****, the damp would stop your ship 100% from performing its sniper role. Too bad the specialised damp ships have not been adjusted to the nerfed damps and often dont even fit damps anymore. And yea this is my sig.
Vaedian GER Excidium.	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:47:00 - [718] P.S.: The Agility Bonus was cute and funny already - but who invented the Medium Hybrid Optimal Bonus? That guy should get an Emmy for creativity and a kick in the arse for the entire idea haha.
ISHKUR MASTER Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.25 21:59:00 - [719] Just a point for a moment. To look at things from a RP perspective. (no I don't RP yet) You (Devs) try to manipulate a ship that was released for a race that gave such race a potential advantage over the opposition factions at war, since when should a nation (eg such as some mid east or anywhere else for that matter) be able to whine incessantly to the USofA for instance to reduce the firepower and R&D of their defensive and offensive firepower? (eg unless they are in some sort of alliance and think such weapons are inhumane and lobby such). We are way beyond that with DD etc in this game. You give us FW and yet run the game like it's a battle arena and all entrants must have equal opportunity and strengths on the battlefield. DOn't nerf a races ship, because the enemys/opposistion thinks it is too powerfull. Come up with a new release ship or strength to already existing ships in the other races to provide a superior counter or strength in another way in battle. Then FW may become exactly that, a race related war where someone actually turns the tables and a race becomes a dominating leader for some time, until another race gets something to give it the strike potential to turn the tables as such, then we get a rolling RP changing and evolving game.
Icutty Lotz The-Kissaki	Posted - 2009.03.25 22:03:00 - [720] 1.dont kill my fleet scorp 2.give rook more missile slots rook needs as much dammage as curse/lach/huggin even with the Bonus you have it will still deal only about 100 damage scorp needs to keep its sniper range and no one complaned about its jam strengh in the past with your changes the falcon is still on par in jam strength and can do it at longer ranges and no HAC is better then the BS built to do the same job(istar-domi zealot-armageddon) same should be for the ewar BS to its recon scorp was made for fleet fights make the bonus so it stays the exact same as it is now, jam strength of 11-13/ and a range of 150km-200km its balanced by being the best jammier with the longest range but being to big for small gang roaming opps as it stands it will still be outclassed by the rook for better jamming and the falcon on range and have no place in eve except for its 8 midslots Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia What about me with red eyes and leather?

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