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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
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CCP Mephysto
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Posted - 2009.05.05 13:30:00 -
[1]
Some of you may have noticed we are testing a new method of downloading the installer for Singularity. This system, called Pando, is a hybrid http download and p2p download system that should allow for much faster downloads to occur. The system operates similarly to bittorrent, and will install a small daemon on your PC that will allow the p2p component to work.
Feedback about this new system gratefully received. Please note that there is no intention of replacing the primary download system (BITS) at this time, this would be offered as well as / in place of the bittorrent option.
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Amerilia
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Posted - 2009.05.05 13:59:00 -
[2]
I¦d just like the good old direct download over http...
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Depili
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Posted - 2009.05.05 14:00:00 -
[3]
I don't like having any extra services running just to download some patch, so no thanks.
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Ausser
Cybertech Industrials Agency
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Posted - 2009.05.05 14:24:00 -
[4]
The official p2p deamon option is a good idea.
Where can we download it?
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Seishi Maru
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.05.05 15:18:00 -
[5]
Please remember that thee are LOTS of people that use broadband connection on IP taht block P2P (I can pay 1/3 of normal price jsut by acceptign not not be allowed to do P2P). So please keep other traditional ways to download it.
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Ecky X
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.05.05 15:21:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Seishi Maru
Please remember that thee are LOTS of people that use broadband connection on IP taht block P2P (I can pay 1/3 of normal price jsut by acceptign not not be allowed to do P2P). So please keep other traditional ways to download it.
Hence the hybrid. If I'm not mistake, WoW uses a similar system and very few people have issues with it.
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CCP Mephysto
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Posted - 2009.05.05 15:48:00 -
[7]
Link is here (only on Windows atm, working on Mac) http://www.eveonline.com/download/?s=singularity
And as I stated, this will not replace the existing BITS downloader we use, but will become an option for those that choose to use it.
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DTson Gauur
Caldari
Underground-Operators
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Posted - 2009.05.05 15:48:00 -
[8]
Originally by: CCP Mephysto
The system operates similarly to bittorrent, and will install a small daemon on your PC that will allow the p2p component to work.
So... basically you'll hijack our bandwidth without any way for us to configure this "daemon" of yours to use acceptable levels of bandwidth (both down and up), ports used or connections opened / used or if we can manage the service itself to start/stop only when needed?
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Haral Reimo
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Posted - 2009.05.05 16:24:00 -
[9]
Originally by: CCP Mephysto
The system operates similarly to bittorrent, and will install a small daemon on your PC that will allow the p2p component to work.
As long as it stays optional. I don't like update daemons, and it should never be required for Eve to work. This includes "helpfully" trying to reinstall/reactivate it at runtime (some of us run without administrator privileges for playing games).
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Arous Drephius
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.05.05 17:09:00 -
[10]
I don't like it. I don't want to have my upload bandwidth stolen (not everyone has unlimited bandwidth) just so I can download a patch. Nobody had any problems with the old HTTP downloads, so why use anything else?
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Seishi Maru
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.05.05 17:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Arous Drephius
I don't like it. I don't want to have my upload bandwidth stolen (not everyone has unlimited bandwidth) just so I can download a patch. Nobody had any problems with the old HTTP downloads, so why use anything else?
Its basically a MANDATORY thing that ccp allow us to disable it. Even if my connectionallowed P2p I don wantto pay my EXPENSIVE link here in south america to help someoen in North america taht can get CHEAP links to download faster.
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Miss President
Caldari
SOLARIS ASTERIUS
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Posted - 2009.05.05 17:23:00 -
[12]
I say no to secondary party services and programs, this is not very secure.
Direct download ftw.
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Reten Kip
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2009.05.05 17:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: CCP Mephysto
and will install a small daemon on your PC that will allow the p2p component to work.
Fonk dat. Don't install anything besides EVE on my computer.
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Trimutius III
Legio Octae
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.05 18:33:00 -
[14]
I don't know it depends for me. If it will give much faster download maybe i'll use it sometimes. I still remember that long waiting until i downloaded Apocrypha... But i don't think that daemon will help, i downloaded at maximum speed that my ADSL net gives, my provider will not allow me to download faster even with daemon as i think.
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I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
Lareon Denery
Los Chupacabras
Brothers of Mayhem
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Posted - 2009.05.05 19:07:00 -
[15]
No way. Pando is the worst thing I ever seen. I can't download anything with it and they didn't offer assistance at all (no troubleshooting in their site). Then -> no, thanks.
BECAUSE OF FALCON |
Nizdaar
Gallente
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2009.05.05 19:29:00 -
[16]
Get rid of it. It's all sorts of fail because there's no icon in the taskbar or anywhere else, it saturated my upstream which made everything I did really laggy and there appears to be no way to configure it.
I had to open up the resource monitor, see what was creating all the connections, find it in my task monitor and close the craptastic application that way.
If I had to describe it in a word, it'd be a trojan. Normal programs don't behave this way. If I missed something, then I missed it. But there's nothing obvious.
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fuxinos
Caldari
Guys 0f Sarcasm
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Posted - 2009.05.05 19:56:00 -
[17]
P2p to download a patch? No thanks.
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SMX
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Posted - 2009.05.05 20:30:00 -
[18]
It looks like they are forcing us to use it seeing as the link to the TQ to Sisi patch on this page is dead at the moment.
Well I'm not gonna use any p2p software so I guess that means no test server for me then...
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tx eight
Minmatar
Blueprint Haus
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.05.05 20:33:00 -
[19]
Why don't you officially seed and publish torrents for installers and patches and be done with it?
Why all this invention of bicycles, why use unknown, undertested protocols, buggy, practically unsupported client and server software with god knows how many security problems and vulnerabilities instead of proven, reliable protocol with lots of production-quality client and server code available?
BitTorrent was designed for the task, is used by millions of people for the task, has proven its worth. What's wrong with it?
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Viktor Del'Grande
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Posted - 2009.05.05 20:37:00 -
[20]
No daemon for p2p on my computer! NO
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Sherio
Caldari
Pringles Inc.
No Comment.
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Posted - 2009.05.05 20:39:00 -
[21]
I still cannot download the client even with your new P2P software, get a network error. Please go back to the old way of dl'ing or at least use Bittorrent!
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Doctor Penguin
Amarr
Celestial Ascension
Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2009.05.05 20:53:00 -
[22]
Mephysto, do you know if this change will solve the client corruption errors that have plagued certain people?
________________________________________________
http://eve.drome.nl/CaodCleaner/ Help make CAOD readable. |
eliminator2
Gallente
Annihilate.
Shock Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.05 21:05:00 -
[23]
i don;t like to have to dl things from somewere else when all info and stuff is from here
seems pointless and iretating
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Kappas.
Galaxy Punks
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Posted - 2009.05.05 21:23:00 -
[24]
Originally by: tx eight
Why don't you officially seed and publish torrents for installers and patches and be done with it?
What's wrong with it?
Nothing apparently. They just use their own torrent client. |
Pboyt
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Posted - 2009.05.05 22:41:00 -
[25]
No thanks.
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EliteSlave
Minmatar
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.05.06 01:39:00 -
[26]
please do not make this mandatory, my ISP specifically blocks p2p sharing.
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Ariane VoxDei
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Posted - 2009.05.06 01:57:00 -
[27]
Thanks for the warning about "installing a...", fortunately I have not tried to update my sisi folder for a few days.
Are there any more surprises you ought to tell us about?
In advance please -.-
From Pando EULA (http://www.pando.com/eula) Quote:
In order to use the Services, you hereby grant permission for the Software to utilize the processor and bandwidth of your computer for the limited purposes of (i) facilitating the transfer of digital files and communication between the users of the Software and the Services and (ii) facilitating the transfer of digital files to servers for purposes of posting content on websites or blogs and (iii) pasting links to content in instant messages and RSS feeds.
Would anyone fluent in legalese care to take a stab at translating and explaining, to a broader audience, the implications of this?
It is vague enough to sound like: Your connection and CPU belongs to us now, for use in our network as we see fit. Lucky they didn't also claim your harddrive while they were at it, eh?
Do not attempt to install this on our computers.
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GeekWarrior
Gallente
Isotope Incorporated
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.06 02:21:00 -
[28]
Please fire whoever came up with this brilliant idea.
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Casiella Truza
Stillwater Corporation
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Posted - 2009.05.06 03:19:00 -
[29]
Look, just put the downloader (and manual patches) on something like Amazon Web Services Cloudfront or similar. I don't have any interest in allowing outside connections to my desktop boxen and I don't want to use BITS for a number of reasons.
--
IC Twitter |
tx eight
Minmatar
Blueprint Haus
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.05.06 05:44:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kappas.
Nothing apparently. They just use their own torrent client.
Does not look like a .torrent.
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Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.05.06 07:53:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 06/05/2009 07:52:59
CCP why not just do what relic did?
http://cohpatch.relic.com/index.html
This way people can use whatever client they want to download and upload only if they want etc... Plus torrents on official page == insane download speeds :P
Edit: page2 snypa
---
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Poreuomai
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.05.06 08:13:00 -
[32]
Erm No - I don't want my home PC to become a server, thank you very much.
In fact, I think many of us would (technically speaking) not be allowed to install such a deamon:
Quote:
F. Acceptable Use Policy
"... running any application or program that places excessive bandwidth demands on the Service for continued periods ..."
"... permit any third party to do any of the above ..."
http://www.virgin.net/terms/broadband_tc.shtml
Let My People Go |
Chi Quan
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.05.06 10:44:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Chi Quan on 06/05/2009 10:46:27
Quote:
http://www.virgin.net/terms/broadband_tc.shtml
this... ouch...
while i understand the desire to pay less, you literally GET less for this. they forbid you to even use the bw you PAY for? wtf?
anyway, btt.
use bittorent and http/ftp sources. seriously, why reinvent the wheel? anyone not willing/able to use p2p will have to revert to classic methods either way, and anyone else can use any torrent client or os (yawwn bits) they want and trust. bitorrent will most likely be already configured and set up on most of the later systems anyway.
----
Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love |
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CCP Mephysto
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Posted - 2009.05.06 10:57:00 -
[34]
My apologies for a late reply (dentist ftl  ).
If you open the control panel on your pc, after starting a download (and thus installing the Pando daemon), you'll find an icon that will allow configuration of the pando system, such as setting port and limiting upload speeds.
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Mish'Kala
Minmatar
FarSight Location and Recovery Services
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Posted - 2009.05.06 11:00:00 -
[35]
is this Pando client going to be installed as standard by the eve installer?
If so, NO, Dont go there.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
M. Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.06 11:32:00 -
[36]
Seems this is another "fail"idea ..
Why ccp cannot try to keep this simple? For god's sake I have written update systems for 2 companies I worked on and its NOT THAT HARD to do something simple that works.
9 in 10 people do not want to spend their bandwidth to help others download.
I live in the other *#$&$!#@# side of the world and I have NEVER worried myself with the patch downloads being "slow". Now because SOME people , that must be very few because never heard of any, think their download of patches is too slow and I gonna have to pay to fix for them?
But I Do already have problem with their excessive size that eat up a lot of my month quota (no here there is NO OPTION for non quota internet access to physical persons), and i really will NOT spend any extra bit to help othe rpeople that CAN much more easily get better connections than me to do get the patch faster.
simple and direct. NO P2P IN MY MACHINE! NO DEAMON OF ANYTHING IN MY MACHINE! NO USING MY MONEY TO FIX YOUR PROBLEM!
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If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Vir Hellnamin
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.05.06 11:42:00 -
[37]
Is this something that eve-files.com has already running a top of normal bittorrent clients?
(http://webpeer.eve-files.com/ - or pick some bigger DL from there, like that kil2's vid and see how it goes).
Thus, why do you need extra installable 3rd party daemon for it?
Just summon Chribba here... :P (was it three times:ChribbaChribbaChribba!)
--
"Entering MH means instant death. It's worse than 0.0. Even the asteroids shoot back." - Alex Harumichi [GRD]
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Murashu
Agony's End
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Posted - 2009.05.06 12:07:00 -
[38]
Welcome to 2009 folks! p2p has been used for years and shouldn't be an issue if you have the know how to tweak the settings. People have been asking for CCP to do something with the current patching system for a while now so they actually came up with an alternate method. It was stated multiple times that they would keep the old system yet the majority of the feedback has been from whiners who have no understanding of how p2p works so it must be horrible.
If you can't figure out how to change the upload settings from unlimited bandwidth to something smaller or just seed when you aren't using your computer then you should probably stick to the old method.
Murashu
Agony's End |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2009.05.06 12:12:00 -
[39]
Hello 
Sounds like what I am running but in their own daemon, which imo sounds like something I don't wish to have. I already run the services and control how my computer communicate with others, a "hidden" own service that utilize my resources just feels like a no thanks.
I'd suggest you look at solutions like I now have on EVE-Files since it utilize both my own network and the help of anyone using the torrent. Thus lighter load on my network and good experience for others (since torrent is awesome lol). And the best part is that it runs straight off the box (if you have a somewhat new client installed already) - and for those who doesn't, the old direct http option is still available.
The real test should come soon, when Clear Skies 2 is released, will be very interesting to see how it will perform but I have good faith in my solution *crosses my fingers*
CCP, you really need to think this over a lot before launching it fully, if that is your choice. Installing additional services that indirectly uses resources on users computers is usually not a good idea. The user should have to decide on that themselves. If this a question of reducing your own CDN load/costs - do take a look at the torrent ideas.
Win a Aeon mothership for 10M ISK |
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Vir Hellnamin
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.05.06 12:33:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Vir Hellnamin on 06/05/2009 12:37:50
(dang, it work'd \o/)
Also, yes, I don't have any problems about .torrents or distributing stuff that way (like eve-files' vids on my excess BW - which rocks!), but having some 3rd-party daemon sitting around... definitive no-go.
--
"Entering MH means instant death. It's worse than 0.0. Even the asteroids shoot back." - Alex Harumichi [GRD]
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Gespenst Jager
Pumpkin Scissors
Bright Side of Death
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Posted - 2009.05.06 12:44:00 -
[41]
Quote:
Feedback about this new system gratefully received.
All your downloaders is broken. So please do NOT install this crap on my computer, and give me direct link to patch and client.
PS. There is no P2P in Pando Daemon - when i ask it download patch, it start download FULL client from ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/test/EVE_Premium_Setup_87566_test_m.exe (!!!!). Just leave direct links alone. If you want p2p - give link on .torrent file and all who want p2p download it with usual p2p-client.
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Psihius
Caldari
Atomic Scrapyard
United Legion
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Posted - 2009.05.06 12:52:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Psihius on 06/05/2009 12:56:18
Edited by: Psihius on 06/05/2009 12:52:18
Bad idea. First it's a service, another one. I hate that idea, because there are too many services running already. Just use good old and proven torrents. Many local torrent sites will definitely help with seeding the client. That way you wont stress your server and ISP international traffic, witch is usually limited. There are players who will gladly help with seeding in their countries.
And yes, we already are using them - it's a ready to go infrastructure. Especially in countries like Russia - for many users downloading a 2.4GB client costs a lot of money, but downloading using a local bittorrent connections is for free and just incredibly faster - we have a member of our corp, who was downloading Apocrypha for 2 days. Using local torrent resources would did it in 1 hour.
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Poreuomai
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.05.06 13:38:00 -
[43]
Originally by: CCP Mephysto
My apologies for a late reply (dentist ftl ).
If you open the control panel on your pc, after starting a download (and thus installing the Pando daemon), you'll find an icon that will allow configuration of the pando system, such as setting port and limiting upload speeds.
The installer should first ask you whether you want to install Pando at all !
Let My People Go |
Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.05.06 13:47:00 -
[44]
**** the hell off with leeching my bandwidth you stupid ****s.
Setup a Proper torrent system that has http seeders and the option to turn on/off peers like everyone else in the world does.
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Trimutius III
Legio Octae
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.06 14:28:00 -
[45]
Hmm lol... i think if this stupid thing will do something with my CPU i will ban it from my computer. U know my CPU is hardly enough to run 4 clients at the same time. And yes i have 4 accounts and sometimes i run them at same time, because it boring always log off and log in, much easier have all 4 chars online all the time i'm playing...
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I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2009.05.06 14:50:00 -
[46]
I'll say no thanks, I don't want any downloading progs installed on my PC.
I would like a link option please, I've not yet had issues with any patch download.
Regards
Mag |
omgdutch2005
Gallente
Advanced Planetary Exports
Intergalactic Exports Group
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Posted - 2009.05.06 14:51:00 -
[47]
Edited by: omgdutch2005 on 06/05/2009 14:53:44
if they let it run via SSL, and perhaps, FINALLY make a propper login thingy (so you dont constantly exit eve if you want to swap characters!!!!!)
no ISP can complain as they cant see whats going on in the SSL TCP/IP packets (and havving SSL connections is 100% legit)
and perhaps a auto char select screen like sony has (the lauchpad), might work splendid :)
the tool checks if there is a update and starts updating, and like in wow, make a option button were you can select if you want to use or not use the P2P feature...
just have a look at your fellow MMORPQ guys and look how their patch mechanism work, and copy the better parts of it (better stolen then badly thought off)
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Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2009.05.06 15:14:00 -
[48]
P2P is great in theory. But in practise it impacts hugely on end-user's wallet when the end user is paying per MB.
Unless a P2P system prioritises geographically, it can never be mandatory.
-----
The Eve Client - A Love Story - The single biggest fix CCP ever did to Eve. Keep it up! |
Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2009.05.06 15:18:00 -
[49]
Or more directly would be according to billing rates.
-----
The Eve Client - A Love Story - The single biggest fix CCP ever did to Eve. Keep it up! |
DTson Gauur
Caldari
Underground-Operators
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Posted - 2009.05.06 16:43:00 -
[50]
Originally by: CCP Mephysto
My apologies for a late reply (dentist ftl ).
If you open the control panel on your pc, after starting a download (and thus installing the Pando daemon), you'll find an icon that will allow configuration of the pando system, such as setting port and limiting upload speeds.
No, No, No and NO!
1) Installing software to someones computer without asking is in many countries a criminal felony. (Actually I think it is in EVERY country). And NO accepting a download IS NOT a legal way to worm yourself out of it. The user needs to be told CLEARLY what is gonna happen and be offered a way to decline it.
2) It is worldwide perceived as "NOT GOOD BEHAVIOUR"
3) What ever your EULA (or Pandos') might say about it, it's still illegal.
4) Even if I did accept this new gimmick of yours, ITS DEFAULT SETTINGS ARE TO HOG EVERY BIT OF DOWN/UP STREAM IT CAN and not to mention opening hundreds of connections (or atleast trying to) It would also be good PR to set the defaults of Pando "daemon" Trojan to say max 100KB/s downstream used, max 10KB/s upstream used (and max 100 or even 50 connections opened) Even better would be to FORCE the user who accepts this "daemon" to configure it when it is installed.
Is CCP sure it wants to see themselves as a Malware spreading company? Yes you read that right, I consider this sort of behaviour as the same what the Malware spreading criminals do.
PS: If you want to see how ppl react to this sort of stealth installation things in general, just google for Starforce copyprotection... I can assure you, it ain't pretty and happy fluffy.
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TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2009.05.06 17:34:00 -
[51]
Never heard of Pando, don't trust 3rd party downloaders and do not want services installed in the background.
To quote - Do not want
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Nizdaar
Gallente
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2009.05.06 17:50:00 -
[52]
Originally by: CCP Mephysto
My apologies for a late reply (dentist ftl ).
If you open the control panel on your pc, after starting a download (and thus installing the Pando daemon), you'll find an icon that will allow configuration of the pando system, such as setting port and limiting upload speeds.
That is far from user friendly.
What's so hard about publishing .torrent files and letting us choose and use our existing bittorrent clients? The last thing I need is yet another piece of software to configure and keep an eye on.
I still maintain that this is effectively a trojan with the way it's installed and configured by default.
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Meiyang Lee
Gallente
Azteca Transportation Unlimited
Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2009.05.06 18:40:00 -
[53]
Showed no icon after starting a download, so perhaps something to look at?
(It was the full client though, perhaps that's HTML only?)
Otherwise went without a hitch, download speed was quite good. (~480 kbyte/s)
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1Of9
Gallente
The Circle
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Posted - 2009.05.06 20:18:00 -
[54]
Another deimon/service running? no thankx!
Why not mirrors? direct download?
maybe .torrent so any1 can use any client at will etc?
just not another deimon ..
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1Of9
Gallente
The Circle
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Posted - 2009.05.06 21:18:00 -
[55]
How it should be
direct download.
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Mahai Ano
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.05.07 08:22:00 -
[56]
Default settings for this new service are very-very user UNfriendly. It hogs all up/down bandwidth and opens a torrent (no pun intended) of connections. Then there is the issue of it being a whole new service. Big no-no.
First, it sould be set up by default so it is possible to do other things when it's running. Let's say 50%/100k down, 5-10k up max bandwidth usage and max 10-20 connections.
Then make it a standalone, user firendly interface. Taskbar minimalizable, easy changing of bandwidth usage by 3 clicks, the stuff.
Plus make it 2 clicks to disable the p2p aspect, for those without unlimited net.
Then this would be ready to deploy. Right now it is not even nearly ready. It is a nightmare, nothing else.
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tx eight
Minmatar
Blueprint Haus
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.05.07 09:49:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Mahai Ano
First, it sould be set up by default so it is possible to do other things when it's running. Let's say 50%/100k down, 5-10k up max bandwidth usage and max 10-20 connections.
Then make it a standalone, user firendly interface. Taskbar minimalizable, easy changing of bandwidth usage by 3 clicks, the stuff.
Plus make it 2 clicks to disable the p2p aspect, for those without unlimited net.
This is called standalone bittorrent client.
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Xia Kairui
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Posted - 2009.05.07 14:37:00 -
[58]
I am not adverse to P2P, in fact I seeded the Apocrypha client for roughly two weeks after it was made public, but this thing makes my hair stand up.
Why does it have to be a service/daemon? A service is only needed for things that PERMANENTLY run on your computer. Sorry, I want to have a say when I am broadcasting stuff into teh intarweb.
Then the Pando EULA basically says "after installing we seed what we want with it". They could be seeding a child **** blog using my bandwidth (yeah, I know that the child **** argument is beaten to death). Fact is, they are doing stuff with my connection that I don't have control over. In some countries it is legal to say the "****s did not run concentration camps" so Pando might use my computer to share that, but I'd be in jail if anyone would notice.
Last as a service the program is taking away my CPU time whenever I have the PC active. I can close BitTorrent and that's it, but aparently Pando does not want that or they'd use a client that is NOT a service.
If this ever goes live the service will end up on my firewall and router block lists.
Nothing against P2P, but P2P for a company I don't know anything is a no-no.
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Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.05.07 16:31:00 -
[59]
This Pando thing, doesn't sound like something I want anywhere near my computer.
Did CCP ever explain why they don't just use a a torrent?
Logistics deployables mean less grind and more pewpew! |
Haral Reimo
|
Posted - 2009.05.07 16:34:00 -
[60]
Ok, I've checked out the pando website, including all the developer guide stuff. I can see why you'd want to use it, it's pretty easy to implement and above all it's cheap.
However, I can say this categorically - That software is NEVER going anywhere near my computers. If you make it optional, I will avoid it and recommend my corp and alliance avoid it. If you include it in the Eve installer I will cancel my account.
BITS is fine, although it appears to cause problems for some people.
Direct download over http should always be available. No questions.
BitTorrent is ideal for players from countries you don't have CDN partners in, but it ought to be a .torrent file that works in any client, not your own prewrapped client so people can set up port forwarding appropriately.
Pando? No thanks! Please stop wasting development time on this.
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Lilly VanSaya
|
Posted - 2009.05.07 18:11:00 -
[61]
I can only agree with the people that say they don't like it. I cant see what happens and so far i've been waiting 30min for 2mb to download... and i still have 25min to go!!
At least make it optional and give that download window some sort of settings so i can get more downloadspeed than like 1kbit/s
Lilly
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omgdutch2005
Gallente
Advanced Planetary Exports
Intergalactic Exports Group
|
Posted - 2009.05.07 18:14:00 -
[62]
I wish to state, installing the service wont be a BIG problem just DONT auto start it, only start it if there is a patch to be downloaded, and if you download the patch, have the ability to disable the P2P function (for those who dont want it, who have BW/mb limits and those who are on dial-up or UMTS/HSDPA (mobile cell phone internet0
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ZigZag Joe
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.05.07 18:45:00 -
[63]
No Pando. Just give us torrent files and have done. Not a chance in hell will I install this crap on my computer.
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SemiCharmed
Brotherhood of DON
|
Posted - 2009.05.07 22:01:00 -
[64]
Because i cant be bothered to copy and paste my rant in another post i will link it here...
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1067251&page=1
and... NO CCP! dont fix something that was never broke!!!!
Just absolutly no...
--------------------------------------------
Remember Kids, Only YOU Can Prevent Fourm fires. |
Burgers
|
Posted - 2009.05.07 23:05:00 -
[65]
Well you did put on test server first..
But that software is a fail .. badly.
You may think that all we do is play eve - and sometimes i even think it myself.. But realy i use my PC for other stuff than eve.
I don't like to have to look for 3'th party programs that hides them self. In Windows 7 beta that Panda software shows up in Control Panel's "Programs and Features" but not in my "Programs" folder where i would try to find any nice program.
I does install a Control Panel icon that tryes to kill my Antivirus when i try acess it - THAT alone makes it a TOTAL noway on my PC.
On the other hand i don't get what that a standalone solution offers. It's still download of prepared patches - or in the case of the test server FULL download 2 GB +
If i had the option to download a standart .torrent i would probely leave the torrent onlive for quite some times as my torrent program is setup in a way where i still can use my conntion. There is littel chance that i would leave any 3'th party progam alive for a long time Pando or others.
And like others i don't get why you are tryning to reinvet the wheel.
Bittorrent are test'et on a bigger scale that you will need need it - the standart clients works on all major OS - it is verry easy to setup (or remove) extra bandwide specc for a small number of files even worldwide.
If you was tryning to make a better / real patcher with some rsync style i would get the effort to but THAT Pando thingy !!
I think you have missed the point why we are asking for .torrents - we do have a nice clinet for download of large files and realy don't need more.
My Bittorrent clinet has Local peer discovery don't think any off your current solotions has that.
But again this was on the test server you can still pull it back.
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Moon Kitten
GoonFleet
|
Posted - 2009.05.07 23:08:00 -
[66]
Use a regular torrent system instead. Installing an extra service is redundant and unnecessary when there already are excellent Bittorrent clients available.
People don't like cluttering up their computers with unnecessary, unknown programs. |
R Mika
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 00:11:00 -
[67]
Have not tried it. However, if it works like Bit Torrent that means it allows me to see the IP address of others and others can see my IP address.
There are already enough people in Eve willing to use whatever means necessary to "defeat" their opponents. Handing such groups and individuals yet another tool, one sanctioned by CCP no less, crosses the line from igorance to complete stupidity. Those that are foolish enough to use BT are already comprised. If this was ever made manditory my days of Eve would be done.
Please think about the environment you have helped create.
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deathlords
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 00:19:00 -
[68]
Installing any daemons like this is a really, really bad idea.
Adding a BT client to the download manager maybe a better solution than having a daemon running in the background. Run the client in foreground, always, never as a daemon.
PS. And please keep direct download available for people where BITS fails (Wine) and some weird demon is unacceptable.
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Brutorthegreat
Minmatar
FM Corp
Dead Mans Hand
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Posted - 2009.05.08 00:21:00 -
[69]
Torrents - good idea
Pando - bad idea
could you explain what it has that normal torrents dont?
I really cant see the purpose of downloading another program onto my computer just to get eve. Its not like we download the eve client or patches every day.
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Estoika Chonda
Big Guns Inc.
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 00:25:00 -
[70]
I hope this method is really going to be only an "opction".
In spain and most Europe, p2p downloads are going to be regulated by the ISP and the government to avoid piracy. If they detect that you are downloading whatever via p2p, they can cut your internet connection and charge you money.
So please DON'T!
Regarda,
Estoika.
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Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 00:59:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Estoika Chonda
In spain and most Europe, p2p downloads are going to be regulated by the ISP and the government to avoid piracy. If they detect that you are downloading whatever via p2p, they can cut your internet connection and charge you money.
That's prolly the best reason to do this. Last thing we want is stupid laws like that taking hold because no-one cares.
-----
The Eve Client - A Love Story - The single biggest fix CCP ever did to Eve. Keep it up! |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 01:59:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Estoika Chonda
In spain and most Europe, p2p downloads are going to be regulated by the ISP and the government to avoid piracy. If they detect that you are downloading whatever via p2p, they can cut your internet connection and charge you money.
At least not for a while - EU parliment rejected this for a time being.
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Shereza
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 07:49:00 -
[73]
Originally by: CCP Mephysto
Feedback about this new system gratefully received. Please note that there is no intention of replacing the primary download system (BITS) at this time, this would be offered as well as / in place of the bittorrent option.
Feedback, eh?
Finding out that your patcher/installer also installed third-party software on my computer without first clearly and explicitly warning me ****ed me off. The last time something similar to this happened was when another MMO I was playing created "shadow" Administrator accounts on my computer as part of their security software. I haven't played the game since then.
Here is a list of other things about this that annoyed and/or ****ed me off over this decision.
The PMB.EXE file was not shut down at the end of the patching/installation process.
The program itself was not uninstalled at the end of the patching/installation process.
I was not informed that it would be left running.
I wasn't even informed what it would be doing before it was installed.
I was not given the oppurtunity to configure it after it was installed which in turn had the potential to seriously degrade my network performance.
^- The maximum upload bandwidth any computer on my network can have is approximately 100kb/s, but anything over 25kb/s causes severe network issues. By severe I mean that ping times jump from 40-60ms to over 1200ms and the maximum download rate drops from 1.2mb/s to 250kb/s and lower. This aspect of your previous Torrent downloader significantly annoyed me and resulted in me never considering using it again. If you'd shared out a .torrent file for the client that could tie in with the system your previous downloader used it wouldn't have been so bad, but when it's done with a program that you can't configure it's not good, which is exactly what happened when I got slapped in the face by a dead fish named PMB.EXE.
While this program continued to run in the background it used up approximately 5% of my CPU resources. In the past I've had issues with programs using cycle time without my knowledge causing significant performance drops on my computer. Some games, older games, suffered 33% drops in FPS and more. Tonight when I didn't realize that this pogram was running I had severe audio/video discrepencies in movie files I was watching causing the video to routinely drop as much as 5-6 seconds behind the audio.
I should not have to go to my Control Panel to deal with this program. It should have a start menu shortcut, it should have a system notification area icon with an option to terminate the program, it should have something that is not, in effect, hidden from me that allows me to control this application.
Maybe I'm over-reacting but when it comes to programs installed without my knowledge or consent, programs that aren't properly terminated, and programs that have a noticeable to significant impact on the performance of my computer and/or my network I have a very hard time staying calm.
I don't really care that this process is in testing. I should have been informed that it would be installed and what it would do before it was installed. For that matter I don't care if the install size is only 8mb or 2gb, I want to be able to choose where the program is installed. I was very annoyed when MS Office or Visual Studio put approximately 2gb of crap onto my OS drive despite being told to install the software onto a different drive and I'm no happier about this little 8mb bundle of CPU-using joy.
Here's some positive feedback though. It's good that this will be optional if you implement it. Were I to deal with it every time I patched or installed a client it would push so many of my hot buttons that I'd have to seriously debate not playing EVE. Considering that I put nearly 10 years into one ORPG and 3 years into EVE despite hardly playing in the last 6 months I do not easily quit games I enjoy, but this would make me ponder it.
____________________
Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval. |
A Scriv
Gallente
Gallente Mining and Manufacturing Inc
Cloud 7 Nebulosa
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Posted - 2009.05.08 08:56:00 -
[74]
spent the night downloading sisi with this. hate it would be an understatement
slows everything right down
and the ui kept crashing, strangly though it would carry on downloading in the background. but still very annoying. sort it please
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Tairon Usaro
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 08:59:00 -
[75]
yet another broken fix for something that had no problems ...
you cannot be serious that the recent patch is 2,3 GB but that is what that pando bull**** is trying to download ... looks to me like a full installtion it is trying to download instead of patching the existing. Might be a problem auf vista and user rights but i am more than sick to help you with that nonsense. i dont want to do torrent non-sense and i am ok with 140 KB/sec bandwith. So stop this nonsense NOW !
If this forces you to concentrate on coding game mechanics instead of spamming pointless graphic updates it will a very well appreciated side effect !
________________________________________________
Some days i loose, some days the others win ... |
Blue Harrier
Gallente
IMPERIAL SENATE
Initiative Associates
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 10:25:00 -
[76]
As others have said this will NEVER be installed on my PC, my ISP uses deep packet inspection Ellacoya profile machines to regulate internet traffic and if P2P traffic is detected it is routed into slower traffic streams.
During peak times of the day this traffic is seriously degraded (packet dropped) or speed capped and both the download and upload amounts are added to my monthly total. If my peak rate total exceeds a given amount then my full off and peak rate surfing is restricted for the rest of that month.
My download manager (Free Download Manager) always downloads the HTTP version and will adjust itself to the parameters IÆve set for various times of the day, it can also use a Bittorrent download seed if required and so far has never failed to download either the full client or a patch for both servers.
Please just drop the idea (along with this stupid ambulation) and just fix the blasted BUGS IN THE CLIENT and stop using your player base as a test site for your screw ups.
Sorry for the rant readers but IÆve been playing this game for nearly a year and IÆm fed up with the attitude of CCP who spend time writing blogs and stories but donÆt respond to the genuine concerns of players who just want a game they can play.
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Trimutius III
Legio Octae
Rebellion Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 11:27:00 -
[77]
I don't know what to say. I tried it. My bandwidth is used almost up to maximum, i have 2 Mbit/s and this downloader gives 220-230 KB/s but normal downloader gave me 180-200 KB/s, i agree Pando is a little bit faster, but still my Internet is lagging because of it... And normal downloader don't cause lags... (it just adjust speed of download if i'm serfing in internet)
-------------------------------------------------
I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius |
Mira O'karr
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.05.08 11:28:00 -
[78]
your new download method was a lot slower than the regular one.
i dont use p2p normally and i dont want to have to configure firewalls and what not in order to get the same speed as before.
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fab24
Gallente
Order of Anarchy
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Posted - 2009.05.08 11:30:00 -
[79]
Originally by: CCP Mephysto
Some of you may have noticed we are testing a new method of downloading the installer for Singularity. This system, called Pando, is a hybrid http download and p2p download system that should allow for much faster downloads to occur. The system operates similarly to bittorrent, and will install a small daemon on your PC that will allow the p2p component to work.
Feedback about this new system gratefully received. Please note that there is no intention of replacing the primary download system (BITS) at this time, this would be offered as well as / in place of the bittorrent option.
each time I start singulatity client, this crap show up and I have to download a patch, take it off srsly.
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Kelly Luzita
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Posted - 2009.05.08 11:38:00 -
[80]
My isp banns accounts for hosting home severs on the plan i have . Sharing files via p2p will look like i am hosting a sever to my isp . Do not implement this idea.
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omgdutch2005
Gallente
Advanced Planetary Exports
Intergalactic Exports Group
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Posted - 2009.05.08 12:20:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Kelly Luzita
My isp banns accounts for hosting home severs on the plan i have . Sharing files via p2p will look like i am hosting a sever to my isp . Do not implement this idea.
bull ****
p.s. it uses several ports to download, 80, 443, random port and 2 additional ports
if they would make the data transfer go through SSL, even deep packet inspection wont do a thing... all the see is many ssl packets from left to right
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Othran
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Posted - 2009.05.08 12:24:00 -
[82]
Its not going on my machine. End of story. If that means no more Eve then that's what it means.
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Esk Esme
Caldari
Intelligent Concepts Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.08 12:29:00 -
[83]
No thnk's CCP
No daemon for p2p on my computer that means end of eve
my stuffs u can have my bandwith lol not a chance
My ISP wont allow it anyways so it be BYEBYE Esk
side note
please shoot the idiot that come up with this idea  by looks of reply's eve player base will shrink by 2/3 good plan
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Fulber
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Posted - 2009.05.08 12:33:00 -
[84]
'Sup, my Icelandic dudes and dudettes.
Welcome to the world of BitTorrent (a completely legal peer-to-peer distribution protocol). Don't reinvent the bicycle (a two wheeled vehicle powered by the rider via an arrangement of pedals). There's a plethora (a wide selection) of free (doesn't cost a penny), lightweight (doesn't eat up all your RAM, CPU time, HD space) and configurable (various settings are user controlled) BitTorrent clients (a program that runs on the end-user machine) already out there.
Instead of wasting time with this Pando crap, just get a tracker (a server that handles client connections to each other) running on your own servers, publish the .torrent file (a file that contains metadata, namely hash values and tracker URLs), and seed the actual torrent.
It's not difficult, and the time you've spent mucking around with Pando would probably have gotten your own tracker and seed up and running. (I've added various explanations in brackets, as you may have noticed, because it seems you don't know much about this). |
xSnowwhitex
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Posted - 2009.05.08 12:35:00 -
[85]
i don't want third party software put on my pc without my permission if i did i would visit Zango with my antivirus software off.
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Jana Clant
New Dawn Tribe
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.05.08 12:56:00 -
[86]
P2P download? Awesome.
Third-party service that we're forced to install? Not awesome.
If you want us to use P2P, just go with the good old method of supplying us with a .torrent file already, and let us use our own P2P applications. You're probably afraid of people distributing trojan-ridden installations, but as long as you have an official torrent and tell people to download from there only, I don't see how it would be a problem.
From what I gathered from the thread, this "Pando" thingamajig is a separate process that runs independently of EVE, right? Because if so, I'm sure I'm not the only one who's going to utterly and completely destroy it to the point it won't be able to even start. If you insist on having it, at least don't bundle it with the patch.
New Eden Research, where your research gets done!
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EliteSlave
Minmatar
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.05.08 12:59:00 -
[87]
CCP Mephysto
Can we get a response on what you plan to do?
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omgdutch2005
Gallente
Advanced Planetary Exports
Intergalactic Exports Group
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 13:00:00 -
[88]
If you do if by a tracker and a torrent... let it download by your OWN developed torrent tool, and on the tracker enforce the use of only your tool (this way the users dont see who they connect with, yeah the techies will know) and if you make it encoded, ISP cant/hardly can, block the stuff, I really, realy urge you guys to check out the sony launchpad tool, fixes 2 things at 1's 1) login / char selection 2) Intergration of download
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Fulber
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 13:01:00 -
[89]
Originally by: omgdutch2005
If you do if by a tracker and a torrent... let it download by your OWN developed torrent tool, and on the tracker enforce the use of only your tool (this way the users dont see who they connect with, yeah the techies will know) and if you make it encoded, ISP cant/hardly can, block the stuff, I really, realy urge you guys to check out the sony launchpad tool, fixes 2 things at 1's 1) login / char selection 2) Intergration of download
netstat -a -b |
Kale Kold
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:11:00 -
[90]
Originally by: CCP Mephysto
My apologies for a late reply (dentist ftl ).
If you open the control panel on your pc, after starting a download (and thus installing the Pando daemon), you'll find an icon that will allow configuration of the pando system, such as setting port and limiting upload speeds.
What if like me, you DONT want Pando installed AT ALL!!!
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Hertford
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:14:00 -
[91]
Originally by: CCP Mephysto
My apologies for a late reply (dentist ftl ).
If you open the control panel on your pc, after starting a download (and thus installing the Pando daemon), you'll find an icon that will allow configuration of the pando system, such as setting port and limiting upload speeds.
Wow, that's a far better way of doing things than uTorrent. |
Von Kapiche
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:22:00 -
[92]
Will be uninstalled immediately, and if that means no Eve, then that means I cancel. No thank you.
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StyweBal
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:27:00 -
[93]
Direct HHTP download for me or no download at all.
And def NO sharing of any kind will be done from my machine, thank you. 
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Nakuda
Gallente
Adventurers
Matari Visionary Coalition
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:31:00 -
[94]
I must ask what's the problem with Blizzard style downloader? My understanding is that it is just an .exe file that has the same features as the Pando software without the need to install it as background service.
After you are done downloading you just keep it on if you want to help seed the file or close it if you don't want it leeching your bandwith. This way you do get the p2p bandwith boost to downloads right after the release of the file.
Of course it also means that most people will close the program soon after the download finishes, but that's what the http backup is for?
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Vak'ran
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:39:00 -
[95]
Obligatory installation of a deamon p2p program is unacceptable. I want to download the patch, and just download the patch. If I want to share it with other people I will only do this on my own terms (i.e. a normal torrent I would probably seed for a while), I will however not be put in a position where i would be required to do so. If these are the new terms of the service you provide, I will no longer be a customer of that service.
-----
Vak'Ran is your local official non-dedicated part-time advocate of reading comprehension and proliferation of intelligence on the EVE Online Forums. |
xSnowwhitex
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:43:00 -
[96]
Originally by: CCP Mephysto
Link is here (only on Windows atm, working on Mac) http://www.eveonline.com/download/?s=singularity
And as I stated, this will not replace the existing BITS downloader we use, but will become an option for those that choose to use it.
im downloading it now then im adding it to quarantine and submitting it to symantic as malware if it doesn't ask my permission before installing and if it damages my computer e.g uses up most of my bandwidth
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Kale Kold
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:44:00 -
[97]
I will NOT allow this software on my PC!
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:46:00 -
[98]
Originally by: CCP Mephysto
(only on Windows atm, working on Mac)
I certainly hope this conversion will take longer than bringing trinity to Mac — say 10-15× longer should do it…
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡…
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki |
RaTTuS
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.05.08 14:20:00 -
[99]
Facepalm
Just make and distribute a .torrent file - job done - no extra crap needed
--
RaTTuS @ InEve, Capital Prints for sale |
Marquis Zenas
m3 Corp
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 14:27:00 -
[100]
No!
Have just done some research over this Pando junk and I don't like the look of it. Many people class it as Spyware or Malware.
--------------------------
Sigless |
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Seishi Maru
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.05.08 14:28:00 -
[101]
Originally by: omgdutch2005
Originally by: Kelly Luzita
My isp banns accounts for hosting home severs on the plan i have . Sharing files via p2p will look like i am hosting a sever to my isp . Do not implement this idea.
bull ****
p.s. it uses several ports to download, 80, 443, random port and 2 additional ports
if they would make the data transfer go through SSL, even deep packet inspection wont do a thing... all the see is many ssl packets from left to right
Do you think the ISP guys are stupid? Try it.. they automatically drop your speed to 1/10th of normal speed while you are transmitting a large ammount of SSL packets. They already do it ..
You really underestimated the greed of those people.
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Vak'ran
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Posted - 2009.05.08 14:40:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Originally by: omgdutch2005
Originally by: Kelly Luzita
My isp banns accounts for hosting home severs on the plan i have . Sharing files via p2p will look like i am hosting a sever to my isp . Do not implement this idea.
bull ****
p.s. it uses several ports to download, 80, 443, random port and 2 additional ports
if they would make the data transfer go through SSL, even deep packet inspection wont do a thing... all the see is many ssl packets from left to right
Do you think the ISP guys are stupid? Try it.. they automatically drop your speed to 1/10th of normal speed while you are transmitting a large ammount of SSL packets. They already do it ..
You really underestimated the greed of those people.
Get another ISP. The more of them that do it, the larger the market for an unscrutinized connection.
Mine doesnt do this, but I am bothered by the software that could very well be intended to replace the BITS system in time. This variation is unwanted by anyone who likes to have control over what their computer actually is doing, those people make up quite a bit of the EVE community. I for one will never allow it to function as intended.
-----
Vak'Ran is your local official non-dedicated part-time advocate of reading comprehension and proliferation of intelligence on the EVE Online Forums. |
Arec Bardwin
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Posted - 2009.05.08 14:48:00 -
[103]
Note all the positive replies in this thread 
I don't want this Pando junk on my computer. DON'T MAKE THIS PANDO CRAP INSTALL BY DEFAULT [/cruise control]
Regular torrents or http for me, thank you very much.
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Dnai Hsrang
Caldari
Cardinal Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.05.08 15:06:00 -
[104]
I have no desire to have any service installed on my computer. If it is a requirement to have it installed to play Eve, I will not play and will cancel my multiple accounts.
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Cass Tamuri
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 15:12:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Cass Tamuri on 08/05/2009 15:12:20
This is not needed / wanted and will not be accepted. Please just use BitTorrent and stop wasting your development time and the community's time with this "enhancement".
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Trenjeska
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 15:16:00 -
[106]
Why don't you have the guts to support a _regular_ .torrent?
Chribba shares a .torrent now and then and I trust him like I would a notary. (Most people here do so I guess) And still you forbid him to provide such convenient services, stating that everything must come from ccp controlled servers?
Have the guts to host that .torrent yourself!
Let us choose our preferred download method, DO NOT FORCE us to use what _you_ think is good.
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Marlenus
Caldari
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.05.08 15:19:00 -
[107]
You're trying to reinvent the wheel, in world full of really excellent wheels. This makes you look like Thrud the caveman, clunking along on mostly-square stones.
Just use torrents already.
More to the point, it's totally unacceptable to use third-party malware instead, even as an "option". Have you looked at their terms of service? They can serve anything they want with our bandwidth, and we don't have any way to control that. Only an idiot would (knowingly) agree to that. It's dangerous and, in many countries, criminal.
Software that dangerous needs a lot more "full disclosure" up front and a lot more visibility than an icon in the control panel, where many users will never find it. I know of one household where installing something with Pando in it would make "Dad, the network admin" issue a complete ban against installing any client or software with the CCP brand name on it, after he spent a few hours troubleshooting the network and then cleaning the malware off all six gaming boxes in the house. Given all the kids who play there, that's about ten lost subscriptions for CCP.
Just don't go there. Use torrents like everybody else.
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Ironfleet.com |
Xelios
Minmatar
Broski Enterprises
Avarice.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 15:30:00 -
[108]
No thanks. It's thing like this that make me glad I have a firewall that alerts me when new programs are trying to use my connection.
Bittorrent and HTTP downloads work just fine.
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Arec Bardwin
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Posted - 2009.05.08 15:31:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Trenjeska
Chribba shares a .torrent now and then and I trust him like I would a notary. (Most people here do so I guess) And still you forbid him to provide such convenient services, stating that everything must come from ccp controlled servers?
CCP forbid Chribba to share patches via .torrents??? 
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Vak'ran
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Posted - 2009.05.08 15:36:00 -
[110]
this thread does need some metaphore, pictures and funneh. To illustrate some previous posters' points, which i endorse...
You clearly know the difference between this and this, but what you are proposing now is more like this. Notice the sharp pointy things?
I'd propose using this, which is a perfectly good wheel.
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Vak'Ran is your local official non-dedicated part-time advocate of reading comprehension and proliferation of intelligence on the EVE Online Forums. |
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CCP Mephysto
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Posted - 2009.05.08 15:41:00 -
[111]
Thanks for all your replies so far. I appreciate the feedback you have been giving, and will forward the various concerns raised to the people responsible for this.
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Raia Mortius
Yin Bao
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Posted - 2009.05.08 15:59:00 -
[112]
ok this is very annoying. the PMB.exe just stays running and locks the setup file down.
did i just upload to people all night.
are you joking ??? are you purposely gonna kill all australians broadband quotas?
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Satsuki Kakuri
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.05.08 16:12:00 -
[113]
I have an isp that apparently will just drop your entire internet if it detects outgoing p2p network, and won't turn it back on. I don't feel like finding out if that is really true or not, so I vote no for this.
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Thorvik
Valklear Guard
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.05.08 16:27:00 -
[114]
Did a clean install of EVE after a thorough decontamination of my PC. I don't allow my wife, child, brother, sister, mother or friend on my computer and I sure as hell will not allow an unknown 3rd party software (read malware) on my computer.
Make it optional (separate download for those who wish it) but do not install and then require me to remove it.
No is NO.
Linkage |
Subrahmaya Chandrasekhar
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Posted - 2009.05.08 16:32:00 -
[115]
Originally by: CCP Mephysto
Thanks for all your replies so far. I appreciate the feedback you have been giving, and will forward the various concerns raised to the people responsible for this.
Thanks for the heads-up (it's always frustrating to read a ton of posts like this and yet see no response from the dev team).
I really like this game, but all this third party software stuff coupled with a ship reimbursement issue* has put me in the uncomfortable position of struggling with myself over whether to continue playing EVE (my subscription is up in 7 days and my credit card number in Eve has been cancelled by my bank because of security issues they had).
I think in the end I will keep playing (in part because of the huge amount of time I've invested), but I'm very unhappy with how I've been treated recently (I know, I know. I'm a tiny speck in the universe and I don't matter and no one cares anyway, ha ha).
*(denied by GM Jericho but clearly the end result of a mission software bug - no further word from them for over a week, despite my entreaties)
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DeltaPhalanx
Caldari
Hordes Of Belial
The Undecided Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.08 16:34:00 -
[116]
Mephysto, I rarely reply to threads, save to answer questions that I feel passionate about, and a topic such as this, where I learn that a third party program may compromise my network integrity, and / or my service from my ISP. Like others have already pointed out, I feel that there should be a very clear and concise warning that the Pando service will be installed should a player choose to use the autopatcher instead of a direct http download.
Should CCP continue to use this system, against a vocal playerbase which is currently opposed to its use, I would strongly reccomend that parameters be added to it that allow it to install, with warning and user approval, download the required patch files, and then uninstall, to be reinstalled only during the next patch process. You already do this with your DirectX check, there is no reason not to do so with this service. It should, in no way, shape or form, be required to continue to run as a service beyond the patching process; I do not want, nor need another service utilising system resources when it neither benefits my in or out game experience. If this service is to become, at some point, CCP's prefered patch downloader, I would also reccomend that it be pre-configured in a manner that does not utilise a clients full network bandwidth, and also provide clear options to configure its use during the patch process, including the options to redirect the user to a direct http download, and configure prefered ports.
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Kale Kold
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 17:33:00 -
[117]
According to a guy posting in this thread the pando service takes up 22Mb of RAM!?!?!?!
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1067611
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Sim Cognito
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Posted - 2009.05.08 18:46:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Vak'ran
Obligatory installation of a deamon p2p program is unacceptable. I want to download the patch, and just download the patch. If I want to share it with other people I will only do this on my own terms (i.e. a normal torrent I would probably seed for a while), I will however not be put in a position where i would be required to do so. If these are the new terms of the service you provide, I will no longer be a customer of that service.
I couldnt agree more.
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annoing
Amarr
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.05.08 18:59:00 -
[119]
Pando = this
Not on my computer, NEVER EVER on my computer.
It seems that some people at CCP try to justify their jobs with coming up with new ideas, even though those ideas are cr ap.
Ask to use the Goats Pleasure Palace when you visit the Fanfest this year |
Brujo Loco
Amarr
Brujeria Teologica
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Posted - 2009.05.08 20:14:00 -
[120]
OMG CCP!!! What in the name of SATAN, CHLTUHU, BALZEEBUB and the lowest and darkest breed of the hellish demon infested anarchic chaos birthing inner bowels of mighty Shub-Niggurath itself YOU GUYS THINK YOU ARE DOING?
Hellou, BITTORRENT?
"and will install a small daemon on your PC that will allow the p2p component to work."
Guys, seriously, did you all decided on a chance meeting one day to implement this MARVELOUS idea? What the HELL?
Are you guys so out of touch of reality that even CONSIDERING this seemed efficient and thoughtful and BEST for "everyone" ????
No, I have to ally with the other fellow capsuleers in this thread and say NAY!!!
NAY !!! NAY NAY!!!
Meh, but who cares? You being the stubborn ox headed baphometic monstrosity that you have become , will not only keep doing it but totally ignore what the vocal majority in the forums say, cuz the UNWASHED MASSES of people that barely even log in or know the forums exist at all will undoubtedly not even realize, understand, hear, see, feel or comprehend what this utter monstrosity of crap service Pando is, and will keep playing eve as usual not realizing that their latest memory/bandwith hog is their own fault for being "given the choice" of downloading patches "FASTER"
I for one praised CCP during all the crapstorm of whines , nerfs , and total defamation cuz I believed they knew what they were doing, but somehow using this crap service to save your own money/bandwith makes me go puke with inner hatred on the world and specifically you.
Really, WHAT THE HELL?
PD: WHAT THE HELL? 
Viva VENEZUELA!!!
Archipelago Theory
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Kelly Luzita
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Posted - 2009.05.08 20:46:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Kelly Luzita on 08/05/2009 20:48:03
Edited by: Kelly Luzita on 08/05/2009 20:47:03
Originally by: omgdutch2005
Originally by: Kelly Luzita
My isp banns accounts for hosting home severs on the plan i have . Sharing files via p2p will look like i am hosting a sever to my isp . Do not implement this idea.
bull ****
p.s. it uses several ports to download, 80, 443, random port and 2 additional ports
if they would make the data transfer go through SSL, even deep packet inspection wont do a thing... all the see is many ssl packets from left to right
O yes they do funny how you can make that comment not knowing my isp TOS. I have had friends lose service from sharing game patches through FTP.
http:
//netservices.verizon.net/portal/link/main/selectregion?epi-content=GENERICWIDECONTENT&viewID=content&action=AcceptableUse&epi_menuItemID=0e48d66306ea92a73cfc9708c70c430d&nv=L-i-6&hsl=true&fr=y
( Quote:
i) generate excessive amounts of email or other Internet traffic;
http://www.verizon.net/policies/popups/tos_popup.asp
Quote:
or use the Service to host any type of server. Violation of this section may result in bandwidth restrictions on your Service or suspension or termination of your Service.
Note: any type of server P2p is file serving.
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TimeKeeper Chronos
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Posted - 2009.05.08 20:57:00 -
[122]
I don't like this one bit. I'm OK with the current patch system for the live server but a system like this, I can't stand and will not stand for.
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Kelly Luzita
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Posted - 2009.05.08 20:57:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Vak'ran
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Originally by: omgdutch2005
Originally by: Kelly Luzita
My isp banns accounts for hosting home severs on the plan i have . Sharing files via p2p will look like i am hosting a sever to my isp . Do not implement this idea.
bull ****
p.s. it uses several ports to download, 80, 443, random port and 2 additional ports
if they would make the data transfer go through SSL, even deep packet inspection wont do a thing... all the see is many ssl packets from left to right
Do you think the ISP guys are stupid? Try it.. they automatically drop your speed to 1/10th of normal speed while you are transmitting a large ammount of SSL packets. They already do it ..
You really underestimated the greed of those people.
Get another ISP. The more of them that do it, the larger the market for an unscrutinized connection.
Mine doesnt do this, but I am bothered by the software that could very well be intended to replace the BITS system in time. This variation is unwanted by anyone who likes to have control over what their computer actually is doing, those people make up quite a bit of the EVE community. I for one will never allow it to function as intended.
Where I live I only have one isp or its back to dial up or Satellite.. I cant really game on ether of them.
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Kale Kold
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 21:08:00 -
[124]
CCP have now answered this in a crystal clear fashion and i am pleased to say that the Pando service will be a completely optional install!
Thankyou CCP.
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annoing
Amarr
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.05.08 21:22:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Kale Kold
CCP have now answered this in a crystal clear fashion and i am pleased to say that the Pando service will be a completely optional install!
Thankyou CCP.
Optional for the next patch maybe, but history tells us that within the next 3 patches 'optional' will become maditory
Ask to use the Goats Pleasure Palace when you visit the Fanfest this year |
Professor Perplex
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Posted - 2009.05.08 21:59:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Professor Perplex on 08/05/2009 21:59:33
optional as in ..
"dude there was a check box you needed to uncheck. didnt you read what was written on the patcher that comes up every weeks that you have clicked through so many times before without some third party installing itself? oh, you didnt read the 10 pages of patch notes where we pointed that out? what, you missed the part where it sets itself to autostart on boot so you can serve our content to our customers?"
i bet you a lot of people will get caught out by this and not realise that they are installing third party software.
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Andrew Riviera
Caldari
The First Church of the Azure Carrot
The Dominion Empire
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Posted - 2009.05.08 22:06:00 -
[127]
'Optional' is all well and good, but it needs to be opt-IN, not opt-OUT. If someone specifically wants this Pando garbage, they can ask for it by name. If it's defaulted, people will accidentally install it and they will get burned by it and CCP will lose customers over it.
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TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2009.05.08 23:07:00 -
[128]
Edited by: TeaDaze on 08/05/2009 23:07:27
Originally by: Andrew Riviera
'Optional' is all well and good, but it needs to be opt-IN, not opt-OUT. If someone specifically wants this Pando garbage, they can ask for it by name. If it's defaulted, people will accidentally install it and they will get burned by it and CCP will lose customers over it.
QFT
In addition why in the name of deity are CCP wasting dev and volunteer testing time on this pando "trojan" when the _game_ needs fixing - stuff like the corp interface which has been broken for 4+ years...
I seriously think CCP are losing the plot with all these scrum development teams running around adding new shiney features and nurfing the crap out of stuff around without (it seems) a bigger picture of where the game is going...
Please resize sig to a maximum file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal |
Shereza
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Posted - 2009.05.08 23:44:00 -
[129]
Edited by: Shereza on 08/05/2009 23:45:45
Originally by: CCP Mephysto
Thanks for all your replies so far. I appreciate the feedback you have been giving, and will forward the various concerns raised to the people responsible for this.
I sincerely hope your legal department has some of those people responsible.
I'm not sure of the legal ramifications involved but at the very least there's a chance that CCP could be held responsible for any issues arising from use of Pando and because the user, at least currently, apparently does not agree to a contract such as a typical EULA with regards to the Pando software package we are not subject to the customary "you can't sue us for our program doing what it was made to do" rules that are usually included in them.
I mean it's a pretty fun thing to consider. You pass this software around and as a result people get in trouble with their ISPs or, if something really bad manages to spread across the network, law enforcement. If those people aren't bound by "you can't sue us" agreements and sue Pando what will Pando do about it? I'm betting they might try to pass the buck to CCP. For that matter the end users might just sue CCP directly since, if third-party software like Pando isn't included in the EULA.
____________________
Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval. |
Poreuomai
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2009.05.09 08:05:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Poreuomai on 09/05/2009 08:09:19
Originally by: Kale Kold
CCP have now answered this in a crystal clear fashion and i am pleased to say that the Pando service will be a completely optional install!
Thankyou CCP.
Where was this answered? Do you mean the OP where it says it will be an additional option?
What worries me is this post:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1065424&page=2#34
Install first and then opt out?
Let My People Go |
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Helison
Gallente
Times of Ancar
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Posted - 2009.05.09 10:41:00 -
[131]
CCP, thanks for testing this service and asking for feedback before using this stuff for TQ. I really hope that you don't use Pando, but here a few points from my side, which weren't really answered yet:
1) CCP Explorer wrote: "We are testing an optional method for downloading the full install. You can still use the the primary method to download the install, which is regular HTTP download (using the BITS service in Windows). We are not making any changes to patch downloads."
PLEASE keep the regular HTTP download WITHOUT BITS service. BITS is not available on all PCs.
2) When selecting the download-method it has to be clear, which method does what. It has to be easy for new players to decide which method of downloading to choose and how to configure the Pando Downloader correctly (if you really stick with it). You also need to tell the customer that the Pando downloader stays installed till the user uninstalls it manually.
3) Can any dev of CCP explain, why you don't want to publish a normal .torrent file? I tried your bittorrent-exe once, but it used too much CPU, so I switched back to http.
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Koyama Ise
Caldari
Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon
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Posted - 2009.05.09 12:10:00 -
[132]
I personally like the current BITS system because I don't have to configure my firewall with every single patch so the downloaded one-time-use executable can access the internet.
That and, people in places like Australia get download limits on ADSL. On cable internet however I believe it's generally a combined upload/download limit and P2P means they have to sacrifice more of their limit because they have to seed it as well, at least that's how I understand it.
---
Koyama Ise, Applying logic in areas where it is logical to do so. |
EliteSlave
Minmatar
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.05.09 16:28:00 -
[133]
As a linux user, i have to download the patch manually, which means i would have to be forced to use the pando software, and I called my ISP they said that if any p2p is detected I will have my service disconnected. what is there to do?
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xSnowwhitex
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Posted - 2009.05.09 22:07:00 -
[134]
Edited by: xSnowwhitex on 09/05/2009 22:07:02
this thread isn't locked yet this is beginning to look like this as there both installing secret files
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/technology/technologynews/4969463/Internet-conspiracy-theories-abound-over-Symantec-Pifts.exe-file.html
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Moon Kitten
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.05.10 03:10:00 -
[135]
Do they have download/upload bandwidth caps in Iceland or is it all you can eat? |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2009.05.10 08:31:00 -
[136]
Bad idea.
Honestly just offer a direct download. I hate having to search 20 threads to find where the dev have posted the direct download link.
My home is dial up and so I generally download big patches at work in the background, however I can't install anything on the work computer. I just download to a flashdrive which works good and they have no problems with to date.
I'm surprised with the potential legal ramifications the legal dept of CCP would even allow you to consider Pando.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
omgdutch2005
Gallente
Advanced Planetary Exports
Intergalactic Exports Group
|
Posted - 2009.05.11 12:15:00 -
[137]
Edited by: omgdutch2005 on 11/05/2009 12:18:23
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
Bad idea.
Honestly just offer a direct download. I hate having to search 20 threads to find where the dev have posted the direct download link.
My home is dial up and so I generally download big patches at work in the background, however I can't install anything on the work computer. I just download to a flashdrive which works good and they have no problems with to date.
I'm surprised with the potential legal ramifications the legal dept of CCP would even allow you to consider Pando.
for this virtualisation can work :)
there are softwarepackages that dont need installation (portable version), it boots a windows installation, were you have full admin, install it there, and it'll download via the available open ports (80, 443 100%, rest depends on restrictions)
saying you download your patches even the 2GB files, i see no problem in a stripped down version :)
only issue there could b is RAM, but even 128mb windows should work fine (although slow ^^)
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Cheekything
Gallente
Fallen Angel's
Blade.
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Posted - 2009.05.12 10:57:00 -
[138]
Rather than giving a new download installer can we not just get a .torrent or Direct Download.. and set the option to which we prefer... simple .
As for the auto updater use it for small patches under 80mb.
If not direct user to the above with a menu.
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DeTox MinRohim
Madhatters Inc.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.12 13:16:00 -
[139]
Lol... silly CCP.
Keep your daemon away from us.
------
This sig space is Read-only !
omgalink - Online Skillsheet |
Typhado3
Minmatar
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
Aeternus.
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Posted - 2009.05.13 04:22:00 -
[140]
not sure if this is the right place to put it but I've been using the installer that autodownloads when I open up eve and it says there's a new patch.
2 problems with it:
1. It downloads itself every single time, if its the exact same downloader why do I have to download a 3 mb downloader for every 9 mb patch? maybe I'm just confused but seems wastefull to me.
2. When this autodownloader starts downloading it shuts down all eve clients. This is annoying as I'll be playing with one char on the real server start patching for the test server then have my eve client crash.
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.05.13 12:32:00 -
[141]
hats off for accepting chribba's idea. actually all hats off, tin foil or not, for accepting any external idea at all for a change. but only you guys can take a potentially great thing and ruin it - and from following the game dev forum, this is deliberate.
and then users like chribba, chruker, elissen, ombey, braaage and all the other exceptionally good souls out there, have to clean up the mess/shortcomings. and appearantly you're used to it and spoiled up to the point of counting on it. i wouldnt be surprised if we had to find proper torrents of your tq patches on eve-files in order to avoid this "daemon"
-
putting the gist back into logistics |
Zitus
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Posted - 2009.05.13 16:32:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Zitus on 13/05/2009 16:34:34
Originally by: EliteSlave
As a linux user, i have to download the patch manually, which means i would have to be forced to use the pando software, and I called my ISP they said that if any p2p is detected I will have my service disconnected. what is there to do?
Find an OS that works with EVE in the future? (CCP stated they will no longer be supporting linux users) =(
ALSO: read the entire thread and found literally like 2 people that suported it. one of which was mainly supporting P2p in general and not pando at all.
congrats on entering the virus and trojan horse buisness CCP.
Edit: for clarification, I also say no
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Zostera
Minmatar
Honour Bound
Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.05.13 22:48:00 -
[143]
This sounds like something I want to avoid thanks.
Many of us are simply people that enjoy a bit of game time and really don't have the in depth technical knowledge of how all this stuff works. Therefore we put a fair amount of trust in CCP to keep us safe, and it doesn't look like this particaular PANDO stuff can be regarded as safe or suitable for my or any others less technically competent persons PC.
I won't use, and if that means no EvE... fair enough, not risking my PC security or high p2p bandwidth bills or anything else.
Zos
Vote Mazz 09 CSM |
xarjin
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.05.13 23:16:00 -
[144]
sounds like a great advancement in content distribution i'm sure i mentioned before the whole BITS debacle. imo to all the whiners that claim they dont want a bittorrent based patch downloader for various reasons that blizzard has been using bittorrent based patch delivery systems for warcraft for years and it evidently works very well.
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Shereza
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Posted - 2009.05.14 02:56:00 -
[145]
Originally by: xarjin
sounds like a great advancement in content distribution i'm sure i mentioned before the whole BITS debacle. imo to all the whiners that claim they dont want a bittorrent based patch downloader for various reasons that blizzard has been using bittorrent based patch delivery systems for warcraft for years and it evidently works very well.
Did Blizzard stick it down the throats of their client base as a third-party program without the appropriate protections and restrictions associated with the relevant legal documentation?
Did Blizzard use a program that doesn't let you customize the installation of said third-party program? Is Blizzard's downloader hard to find unless you're told specifically where it is?
This program was installed without my prior consent. It was installed in a location not of my choosing. It had absolutely no readily apparent method of interacting with the client. It was not automatically terminated at the end of the download process and continued to run using up CPU resources the entire time. There was no legal documentation provided for me to review relating to the third-party program.
These are statements of fact. These are, so far as I am concerned, serious issues. No whining about it. So far it strikes me as a very, very, bad way of doing things.
I don't have a problem with a torrent-based downloader, so long as it involves a torrent file I can load into my current BitTorrent client.
____________________
Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval. |
ROBOT POPE
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Posted - 2009.05.14 04:45:00 -
[146]
This was not well thought out. Putting something like Pando into your client with the scheme you have set up for installation and disabling the thing is pretty rotten sounding, and you are bound to never get subscribers who freak out whenever they hear about some secret program included in your game.
Also, there is no perceivable reason why you would want to use this over a regular torrent.
In conclusion
Sandvine rules
comcast rules
~catch a wave |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.05.14 12:50:00 -
[147]
Whatever solution you go with, please for the love of Goddess, give me the option/ability to download the patches in their entirety using my choice of manager/browser/ftp-client etc.
I do not feel comfortable having an undisclosed amount of my available bandwidth sucked away, even if it is for a short period, I want/need the ability to control the flow.
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Zostera
Minmatar
Honour Bound
Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.05.14 12:52:00 -
[148]
So I downloaded the pathc, wasn't asked to opt into or out of anything and I have no idea if a p2p was installed - anyone with more techy knowledge can cofirm whether this went ahead or?
Zos
Vote Mazz 09 CSM |
Orb Lati
Minmatar
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.15 06:38:00 -
[149]
I dont know if its been requested previously, but can you have the auto downloader change the file to an re-usable executable instead of the RTP container file located under programdata/ccp/eve/downloads.
As an an extra bonus, giving us the option to save the patch to a new location would be fantastic as its a pain having to do multiple downloads if you have multiple clients.
"We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible" |
Kronsur Boon
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Posted - 2009.05.16 13:14:00 -
[150]
I see the great advantages in using a p2p network to distribute files. However, I will not use a propriety p2p network like Pando. There are several reasons for this. If I'm going to install an application that shares my system's bandwidth and resources, I want remain in control of the resources it allocates. I would also prefer the network to be open and transparent.
My preference would be for CCP to make a torrent available. That way everyone can take advantage of the p2p network, but still remain in control of their system's resources. |
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xarjin
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.05.17 01:19:00 -
[151]
Edited by: xarjin on 17/05/2009 01:41:14
Edited by: xarjin on 17/05/2009 01:39:50
Edited by: xarjin on 17/05/2009 01:36:30
Edited by: xarjin on 17/05/2009 01:22:27
Originally by: Shereza
Originally by: xarjin
sounds like a great advancement in content distribution i'm sure i mentioned before the whole BITS debacle. imo to all the whiners that claim they dont want a bittorrent based patch downloader for various reasons that blizzard has been using bittorrent based patch delivery systems for warcraft for years and it evidently works very well.
Did Blizzard stick it down the throats of their client base as a third-party program without the appropriate protections and restrictions associated with the relevant legal documentation?
Did Blizzard use a program that doesn't let you customize the installation of said third-party program? Is Blizzard's downloader hard to find unless you're told specifically where it is?
This program was installed without my prior consent. It was installed in a location not of my choosing. It had absolutely no readily apparent method of interacting with the client. It was not automatically terminated at the end of the download process and continued to run using up CPU resources the entire time. There was no legal documentation provided for me to review relating to the third-party program.
These are statements of fact. These are, so far as I am concerned, serious issues. No whining about it. So far it strikes me as a very, very, bad way of doing things.
I don't have a problem with a torrent-based downloader, so long as it involves a torrent file I can load into my current BitTorrent client.
1) If ya cant beat em join em
Blizzard's patch downloader for warcraft functions only as a temporary bittorrent client user interface that does not install any permanent system services. It is the primary patch downloader for every person that plays the game. Patches are only distributed via bittorrent using the provided patch downloader from blizzard as the advantages for rapid decentralized content distribution are widely known and completely legal.
With the above mentioned statement I'm very hesitant to support any user side application that installs a daemon that cannot be removed, is not unloaded with the termination of the patch downloader or installs any permanent files or system services without my knowledge even if it was bittorrent based. Just keep the permanent daemon and make a user interface based bittorrent client patcher application that only functions as a client for the duration of it's use and i'm sure the hecklers will care less about how the bandwidth for eve's patch downloading is utilized.
2) Not everyone is a network engineer or a software developer.
Bittorrent clients cannot upload to peers if you have a router on your home network unless the correct network port on the router was opened as the connection to an available peer is a request for an incoming network connetion to your computer from a remote peer known by the bittorrent tracker. The patch client i'm sure like any network based appliation has a range of over 65000 network ports and to ensure functionality would open one of those 65000 ports randomly when the patch downloader was executed. The chances of one of those random ports being open for an unsolicited request are extremely low so the shared p2p upload component would mostly only apply to people without a network router. If you haven't guessed by now I am a certified network engineer 
3) Keep it simple stupid
Reinventing the wheel is often a large waste of resources and time better invested to using a solution that works for tens of millions of people. Opentracker is that solution, it costs nothing to implement and has been proven capable to withstand more server load punishment than every eve user could possibly generate.
http://torrentfreak.com/the-pirate-bay-switches-to-opentracker-071208/
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Sally Bestonge
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.05.17 20:53:00 -
[152]
Originally by: xarjin
2) Not everyone is a network engineer or a software developer.
Bittorrent clients cannot upload to peers if you have a router on your home network unless the correct network port on the router was opened as the connection to an available peer is a request for an incoming network connetion to your computer from a remote peer known by the bittorrent tracker. The patch client i'm sure like any network based appliation has a range of over 65000 network ports and to ensure functionality would open one of those 65000 ports randomly when the patch downloader was executed. The chances of one of those random ports being open for an unsolicited request are extremely low so the shared p2p upload component would mostly only apply to people without a network router. If you haven't guessed by now I am a certified network engineer
There is a Reason Upnp was developed for home routers so you dont have to configure **** but it will work right?
Installing a down loader a service is totally unacceptable and is borderline unethical. Dont ****ing do it use a torrent with http seeders.
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Gespenst Jager
Pumpkin Scissors
Bright Side of Death
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Posted - 2009.05.17 23:00:00 -
[153]
Quote:
Keep it simple stupid
Imho, CCP think that EVE-pilots is not smart enough to use torrents. Therefore they wish to simplify process of patches downloading.
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Maximus Incendiary
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Posted - 2009.05.18 04:00:00 -
[154]
I am wildly against software installed on my pc without my explicit consent. And by "explicit consent", I mean that I'm notified in some way other than a click-thru no-one-reads-it shrink-wrap-scam-license kind of way.
I don't want P2P software running on my PC unless I put it there intentionally myself, under my own control. CCP installing spyware/P2P services or agents on my PC that I cannot turn on & off AND control what/where/when/to whom it communicates will result in three accounts cancelling.
Please don't jack up the game with some BS scam trying to save a few dollars on your ISP rates. Man up, you make millions off us, treat us with some respect. |
Xapharia
WOLIMAZO INC
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Posted - 2009.05.18 07:23:00 -
[155]
Why not just use the STANDARD .torrent format (maybe even make it an RSS feed). Make it a standard .torrent file you download so you're not restricted to using ONE program to get the file(s). In addition keep the http/ftp as an option for people allergic to bittorrent. (There's always some.)
This way people can use whatever client they want to download the game/patches and can even set the upload to 0.0 in cases of limited bandwich per month. The current primary download system with the exe downloader doesn't work properly either (gives lots of errors and ends with having to download it 'manually' anyways).
_________________________
Originally by: CCP Whisper
Boo hoo. Cry some more.
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Taradis
Amarr
The Imperial Furies
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Posted - 2009.05.18 10:00:00 -
[156]
Hmm could this be the cause of the Error on patch download on the Sisi client? I seem to be having issues with the incompatible version or wtf ever it is /is at work atm so i can't really splain the issue right. Also tried to manually apply the patch to no avail. Could some1 be so nice as too steer me in the right direction on this. Thanks
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Tomarix Vindigo
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Posted - 2009.05.19 11:36:00 -
[157]
I say NO to this daemon as well. Make it optional with a BIG easy to see BUTTON to choose it, or skip this.
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KalEl Trask
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Posted - 2009.05.22 06:55:00 -
[158]
Absolutely Freakin Not!
I have five accounts and will cancel every last one of them and bio mass my characters if I don't have an option to opt out of a p2p daemon install.
I think that explains my viewpoint.
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oprime
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Posted - 2009.05.22 18:44:00 -
[159]
The new system is so much slower then the old one :(. I used to download at 1MBps but now I'm down to 400~600KBps
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Xianthar
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.22 20:50:00 -
[160]
you most certainly will not be installing any daemon's on my computer, good luck trying..
manual download page works just fine thank you.
-x
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Mr morris
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.23 12:18:00 -
[161]
Edited by: Mr morris on 23/05/2009 12:18:54
Guys, This generally inconsiderate & invasive idea makes for good round table discussions and thats where it should have been left. CCP, STOP TRYING TO REINVENT THE WHEEL ffs.
Mr Morris is sold in game on boyout offer. |
xarjin
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.05.25 11:44:00 -
[162]
Originally by: oprime
The new system is so much slower then the old one :(. I used to download at 1MBps but now I'm down to 400~600KBps
If the bittorrent based distribution patcher was implemented for everyone peer speeds experienced by users would be much higher than you may have experienced due to how bittorrent functions. More seeders and peers using the system the more speed each user would receive. |
xarjin
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.05.25 11:47:00 -
[163]
Edited by: xarjin on 25/05/2009 11:59:20
Originally by: Sally Bestonge
Originally by: xarjin
2) Not everyone is a network engineer or a software developer.
Bittorrent clients cannot upload to peers if you have a router on your home network unless the correct network port on the router was opened as the connection to an available peer is a request for an incoming network connetion to your computer from a remote peer known by the bittorrent tracker. The patch client i'm sure like any network based appliation has a range of over 65000 network ports and to ensure functionality would open one of those 65000 ports randomly when the patch downloader was executed. The chances of one of those random ports being open for an unsolicited request are extremely low so the shared p2p upload component would mostly only apply to people without a network router. If you haven't guessed by now I am a certified network engineer
There is a Reason Upnp was developed for home routers so you dont have to configure **** but it will work right?
Installing a down loader a service is totally unacceptable and is borderline unethical. Dont ****ing do it use a torrent with http seeders.
upnp is an option I had not considered at the time but for the majority of users with a network router I would reasonably expect they would not experience a large rise in upload bandwidth usage leading to complaints or TOS violations from isp's. Also considering the patch downloader functionality has been in question a bittorrent patch downloader for an mmo that does not install a permanent daemon could not be at all classified as a server service but rather a client very similar to blizzard's patch downloader would be entirely within the compliance of every major isp's TOS or AUP. |
Beverly Sparks
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Posted - 2009.05.30 19:31:00 -
[164]
Originally by: tx eight
Why don't you officially seed and publish torrents for installers and patches and be done with it?
Why all this invention of bicycles, why use unknown, undertested protocols, buggy, practically unsupported client and server software with god knows how many security problems and vulnerabilities instead of proven, reliable protocol with lots of production-quality client and server code available?
BitTorrent was designed for the task, is used by millions of people for the task, has proven its worth. What's wrong with it?
Bingo. Just link the official torrent here on the site.
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yoyaz
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Posted - 2009.06.01 23:25:00 -
[165]
i like the one where i just download the full patch through the site..
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slipknot69hell
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Posted - 2009.06.02 18:37:00 -
[166]
plz ccp hear me..
instead going around proto n tryin to customize (which i really like) can u plz at least see the btdna docs n refs i garrantee that ull adopt it... plz for the greatness of the view of the big things plz ill say again
btdna, check it out :)
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Una D
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
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Posted - 2009.06.09 07:52:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Sally Bestonge
Originally by: xarjin
2) Not everyone is a network engineer or a software developer.
Bittorrent clients cannot upload to peers if you have a router on your home network unless the correct network port on the router was opened as the connection to an available peer is a request for an incoming network connetion to your computer from a remote peer known by the bittorrent tracker. The patch client i'm sure like any network based appliation has a range of over 65000 network ports and to ensure functionality would open one of those 65000 ports randomly when the patch downloader was executed. The chances of one of those random ports being open for an unsolicited request are extremely low so the shared p2p upload component would mostly only apply to people without a network router. If you haven't guessed by now I am a certified network engineer
There is a Reason Upnp was developed for home routers so you dont have to configure **** but it will work right?
Installing a down loader a service is totally unacceptable and is borderline unethical. Dont ****ing do it use a torrent with http seeders.
There is also a reason why any security minded person kills of upnp the first thing they do. NO port opening or other changes to network setup without me doing it or at least approving.
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Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
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Posted - 2009.06.09 10:45:00 -
[168]
well... dbus-daemon takes up 8mb memory (which is twice what ¦torrent needs with ~10 torrents in all shapes, colors and block sizes), increases my q3a pings from ~40ms to ~65ms and/or reduced my avg torrenting speeds by ~10-15% during the last 8d i kept track of them all.
sure... i now kill the process every time i start eve but i'm sure the game is affected for everyone who doesn't stop this fail
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putting the gist back into logistics |
Tor Umar
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Posted - 2009.06.14 20:46:00 -
[169]
Is this why i cant get online????
"The update was downloaded but it failed verification indicating that the file is corrupt. Would you like to download the file again?
You will not be able to enter the game until you download the update." |
5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.06.16 01:03:00 -
[170]
Downloaded over 2 gigabytes, took 2 hours. Got an error at the end
Extraction error or something, what's that?
Also it wasn't very fast at downloading, around 3x as slow as it used to be at around 200kb/sec. |
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something somethingdark
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Posted - 2009.06.16 01:34:00 -
[171]
oh for the love of god
the wheel has already been invented ... its called a wheel
First there was a thing called direct download
people used it and saw it was ok
then came a bunch of accountants who (quite correctly actualy) stated that content delivery networks (the only real option to serve so many people at the same time) are fking expensive
the devs gathered and thought "hmmmm if only there was ... something like a wheel...."
finaly they settled on using a stone called BITS, wich they hammered it into shape using other stones
it wasnt realy all that round but it did its job ... sort of
people started to use this BITS because it was realy the default option....
it wasnt all that quick because it wasnt realy round and people complained
so the devs got back together and say " listen that first incarnation of "the wheel" didnt quite work out
why dont we give it another try
so they thought long and hard untill it struck somebody who was looking at cows
EUREKA!
that squishy mushy thing that comes out of the backend of cows
that must be "the wheel"
promtly he brought it in and the devs incharge of this project rejoiced
-------------------------------------------
As for the constructive part of this post :
Dear CCP,
Ladies and Gentlemen i give you the 2 point plan to content distribution success
1)Provide a direct download
2)Provide a .torrent file and a tracker n stuffs
that is all
Best Regards |
Draco Argen
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Posted - 2009.07.12 18:10:00 -
[172]
Dare i ask but why doesn't CCP actually just USE bit torrent as an optional download (IE leave direct download these too, or you will have a mutiny). Put up one of your servers as a seed and allow people to choose. Means they have full control of the download process. Many professional companies like Sun and red hat do exactly this.
Always seem to be rebuilding the wheel, and i never know why. You've re-made chat servers/clients, email, hell even your very own browser, but why? :)
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ceaon
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.14 09:28:00 -
[173]
Pando > torrent
i use the pando(the normal version) for 2 years and i got awesome download speed (800-900 kb/s)
Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
EvE FTW |
Ariane VoxDei
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Posted - 2009.08.02 20:18:00 -
[174]
With the Apocrypha 1.5 fleet testing coming up soon (3 days from now) can you tell me if we have seen the last of Pando and any other third party software that gets installed/run without explicit warning and possibility to prevent it?
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Dapto
Minmatar
Dissolution Of Eternity
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Posted - 2009.08.04 00:33:00 -
[175]
CCP you really havnt thought about this have you. P2P is a very bad idea it opens up both ours and your networks to very unscrupulous people in interent land the ones that do bad **** for no other reason than they can. Arent you experiencing enough problems with keyloggers at the moment why open a new can of worms.
Errr did you consult your legal team? You do realise it wont be us the players coming at you from the 4 corners of the globe it'll be the major ISP's.
I hope you have an army of lawyers in the waiting? good luck you'll need it.
PS. Please by all means contact me if you'd like the run down on the full technical and legal ramifications if you still choose to do this.
Dapto |
Wolfensrevenge
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Posted - 2009.08.07 19:58:00 -
[176]
Ok so this Pando your talking about its the same system used for thoes Korean Grind games like Maple Story and i hate it i recenty had problems downloading through this system because my settings would not work with the download, its fail... anyway hope we use the regular patch service that has proven itself time and time again. Thanks for the post
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Commander Vice
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Posted - 2009.08.08 16:18:00 -
[177]
Originally by: R Mika
Have not tried it. However, if it works like Bit Torrent that means it allows me to see the IP address of others and others can see my IP address.
There are already enough people in Eve willing to use whatever means necessary to "defeat" their opponents. Handing such groups and individuals yet another tool, one sanctioned by CCP no less, crosses the line from igorance to complete stupidity. Those that are foolish enough to use BT are already comprised. If this was ever made manditory my days of Eve would be done.
Please think about the environment you have helped create.
My thoughts exactly
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Dansel
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.08.10 15:07:00 -
[178]
I have no problem with it being a P2P system.
But I do have a problem with that it installes software that I didn't choose to install, with not being able to control which ports it uses, how much it will upload and who it conects to, and not given the option to launch or terminate the application on times of my choosing.
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Yay!! |
Wolfensrevenge
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Posted - 2009.08.15 01:36:00 -
[179]
Ok well the test server is no longer working for me. I have had patch problems and this all seemed to start after this was introduced.Pando has given me problems in the past and now its causing problems again it seems, havent been on the test server in over a week looks like I wont be able to use it anymore please dont use this on TQ I like this game and I dont want any issues or headechs with it over somthing that isnt a major problem. "If it isnt Broke Dont Fix It".
Thanks, Wolfensrevenge
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AngelFood
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Posted - 2009.08.19 11:43:00 -
[180]
I have never had any problem with eve patch downloading only the odd bugs maybe but generally when it works it works good.
Wow on the other hand is a terrible system which is very slow and takes up 'horde's' of bandwidth.
So why people are comparing to wow as a good example i don't know.
I say if it ain't broke dont fix it, and i think this definately applies here.
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