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stankpod	Posted - 2009.08.11 20:30:00 - [91] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: I could say the same for you. the difference is that I don't ***** on the forums when something happens that could possibly reduce my profit. Thats because nothing could possibly reduce your profits, well maybe if another bottomfeeder goes to the same mission.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.08.11 20:41:00 - [92] Edited by: Tippia on 11/08/2009 20:40:55 Originally by: stankpod Thats because nothing could possibly reduce your profits, well maybe if another bottomfeeder goes to the same mission. This is, of course, completely incorrect, but the perception is common since many mission runners seem to be pretty stupid and not very familiar with the game. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
stankpod	Posted - 2009.08.11 21:30:00 - [93] yes dear
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.11 21:57:00 - [94] Originally by: stankpod Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: I could say the same for you. the difference is that I don't ***** on the forums when something happens that could possibly reduce my profit. Thats because nothing could possibly reduce your profits, well maybe if another bottomfeeder goes to the same mission. MRs blowing up wrecks reduce profits, but you don't see us QQ about it. We just keep our chin up and carry on while the MR has a cow.
Lunarmist	Posted - 2009.08.12 02:11:00 - [95] Here is a simple solution. Get one repairer drone in your drone bay. when some one comes into your mission uninvited to ninja salvage your stuff, you just fly right next to the said ship, wait till all the npc ships are close, then let out your repair drone. Target the ninja ship and let your drone repair that ship a few cycles then warp out. This will make npc ships start to attack that ninja ship. Since npc ships are close and ninja ships are usually not tanked to handle the npc ships, that guy will most likely killed or have to warp out. I've killed a few of them this way. pretty funny honestly.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.12 03:10:00 - [96] Oh god. PLEASE do this to me.
Gavin DeVries	Posted - 2009.08.12 04:36:00 - [97] Originally by: Lunarmist Here is a simple solution. Get one repairer drone in your drone bay. when some one comes into your mission uninvited to ninja salvage your stuff, you just fly right next to the said ship, wait till all the npc ships are close, then let out your repair drone. Target the ninja ship and let your drone repair that ship a few cycles then warp out. This will make npc ships start to attack that ninja ship. Since npc ships are close and ninja ships are usually not tanked to handle the npc ships, that guy will most likely killed or have to warp out. I've killed a few of them this way. pretty funny honestly. BAD idea! The on-the-ball ninja will immediately shoot you. Concord will arrive and blow him up for unlawful aggression. Since you're repairing (via drone) an unlawful aggressor, they will also blow you up. Ninja loses a frigate and salvagers, maybe at worst an interceptor with salvage tackle rigs (soon to be much cheaper for them as they'll be small rigs). You'll lose a mission ship. Which is worth more? ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.12 05:32:00 - [98] Here is a simple solution: quit crying like a little *** over the loss of a fraction of the pretend space money, buck up like a man, and move on. Or conversely, you can continue to cry like a little *** and supply the tears needed to fly my ship.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.12 13:58:00 - [99] Edited by: Jarvis Hellstrom on 12/08/2009 14:02:02 Originally by: Mistress Evita Blow their dang ship up if they are in an NPC corp or war dec em if they are not. Stand on your own two feet and stop yelling for Mommy CCP to come help you cause the big bad meany ninja salvager is picking on you. Yawn The thing is - the plague is beginning to spread beyond the hubs now. I've never run a mission in a hub either and I've only been invaded once. I blew up the wrecks on him but he persisted (he was in an NPC corp so wardec wasn't an option) so I went back to station to fit a suicide gank ship and he was gone by the time I'd finished. The 'whine' isn't to 'stop' them. Just to let us shoot them. At least from my perspective. In fairness and balance I think that tractors should work for them too (a tractor beam shouldn't care who owns what - it's a tractor beam not an ownership checking beam) and I've no problem with wrecks becoming more easily scannable or with them becoming unowned for the last hour of their existence. All these things would keep salvaging alive as a mini-profession. I just have an issue with them doing it when I'm around and having no real recourse short of a suicide gank which can be hard on the sec status, not to mention the wallet as their griefboats are pretty much not worth blowing up. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.08.12 14:38:00 - [100] Edited by: Traidor Disloyal on 12/08/2009 14:40:40 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom The 'whine' isn't to 'stop' them. Just to let us shoot them. At least from my perspective. In fairness and balance I think that tractors should work for them too (a tractor beam shouldn't care who owns what - it's a tractor beam not an ownership checking beam) and I've no problem with wrecks becoming more easily scannable or with them becoming unowned for the last hour of their existence. All these things would keep salvaging alive as a mini-profession. I just have an issue with them doing it when I'm around and having no real recourse short of a suicide gank which can be hard on the sec status, not to mention the wallet as their griefboats are pretty much not worth blowing up. I agree. Ninja salvagers should go blinky red has soon has they salvage a mission wreak. Mission runners should be able to shoot at the friggen ninja salvagers. This would make the people in my corp happy. Sometimes the people in my corp complain that there is no loot to steal and thus can not get the mission runner to pop one off at em. I see death and destruction for a few months if this is ever implemented. After that mission runners will act the same way that miners do when people come in to flip a can. Do nothing, nothing at all. I take it back. Mission runners will do something. Run to the forums and cry to CCP how it is unfair that ninja salvagers can come into their missions and salvage their wreaks. Kind of like what they are doing now. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.12 15:47:00 - [101] Originally by: Traidor Disloyal I agree. <snip> I see death and destruction for a few months if this is ever implemented. After that mission runners will act the same way that miners do when people come in to flip a can. Do nothing, nothing at all. Yawn That straw man argument again? You want aggro? Just pick up a single crappy piece of ammo. This option is there. The fact that it is not the standard behaviour of ninjas means that this 'death and destruction' talk is just that. Talk. If that would 'make your corp happy' then just pick up some ammo or a crappy T1 module off even one of the wrecks you salvage. There you go - you've got what you want. You can have it right now but you don't do it. Therefore, empty threat. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.12 15:52:00 - [102] Quote: This would make the people in my corp happy. and the ability to shoot freighters coming out of Jita 4/4 would make me happy. Sadly, CCP isn't going to criminally flag people just because you want to shoot at something. If you want to shoot at people who enter your mission, go to lowsec.
Zoe Adelita	Posted - 2009.08.12 16:01:00 - [103] Whaaaaaaaa! Whaaaaaa... ! Butch up sister and take responsibility for your own New Eden experience. Don't like your salvage being taken, do something about it.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.12 16:50:00 - [104] The whine factor has really bumped up during the last page. Those evil bastards must really get under your skin salvaging the profit of those 8 wrecks that you can more than make up in another mission. Originally by: Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
stankpod	Posted - 2009.08.12 17:04:00 - [105] Originally by: g0ggalor Here is a simple solution: quit crying like a little *** over the loss of a fraction of the pretend space money, buck up like a man, and move on. Or conversely, you can continue to cry like a little *** and supply the tears needed to fly my ship. please come up with a new line, what is it in the ninja handbook... train for 3 days say tears every other word and boom your a ninja? Tears make my ship run? you sound like someone who has to stay 1001 feet away from grade schools.
Borun Tal Minmatar Virtual Rock Industries	Posted - 2009.08.12 17:34:00 - [106] As stated before, you have options: 1)get the hell out of the mission hubs and you probably will never see one; 2) destroy the wrecks; 3) salvage as you go; and 4) stfu and get over it. Gawd, I'm getting sick of seeing this come up time and again. Quit yer whining...
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.12 18:05:00 - [107] Originally by: Borun Tal Gawd, I'm getting sick of seeing this come up time and again. Me too actually. Ever wonder WHY it comes up so much? I'll let you in on the secret- because the current mechanic is extremely counterintuitive and only makes sense to those who either: a) Abuse it for benefit or b) Have been around so long that the original explanations actually make sense to them still even though they've long ceased to be relevant. In other words, until the mechanic changes in some way, expect to see these threads ad nauseum. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.12 19:30:00 - [108] Originally by: stankpod Originally by: g0ggalor Here is a simple solution: quit crying like a little *** over the loss of a fraction of the pretend space money, buck up like a man, and move on. Or conversely, you can continue to cry like a little * and supply the tears needed to fly my ship. please come up with a new line, what is it in the ninja handbook... train for 3 days say tears every other word and boom your a ninja? Tears make my ship run? you sound like someone who has to stay 1001 feet away from grade schools. Yet you still cry like a *, and when cry to me in game (or even in local) it is funny and makes me want to ninja more. Originally by:** Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Borun Tal Gawd, I'm getting sick of seeing this come up time and again. Me too actually. Ever wonder WHY it comes up so much? I'll let you in on the secret- because the current mechanic is extremely counterintuitive and only makes sense to those who either: a) Abuse it for benefit or b) Have been around so long that the original explanations actually make sense to them still even though they've long ceased to be relevant. In other words, until the mechanic changes in some way, expect to see these threads ad nauseum. How is it counter intuitive. If someone steals what actually is considered yours, they turn flashy red. If they take what is not yours, they don't turn flashy red. How intuitive do you need it to be?
Karentaki Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.08.12 19:45:00 - [109] Well done on making a nice original thread... http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1143161 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1140081 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1128088 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1136730 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1120748 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1116980 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115347 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115497 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1092372 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115121 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115359 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1114874 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115387 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1092372 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1138530 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1067174 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1122548 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1113790 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1109936 ... oh wait. Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
Gavin DeVries	Posted - 2009.08.12 19:49:00 - [110] Originally by: g0ggalor How is it counter intuitive. If someone steals what actually is considered yours, they turn flashy red. If they take what is not yours, they don't turn flashy red. How intuitive do you need it to be? The only thing I'd say is counterintuitive would be the difference in how "ownership" is granted. I blow up a pirate ship. According to CONCORD (based on their response) I "own" the loot in the wreck, but I don't "own" the salvage in the wreck. If someone takes loot from the wreck, and I shoot them, CONCORD stays out of it. If someone salvages from the wreck, and I shoot them, CONCORD blows up my ship. That's the only thing I can see that isn't straight-forward. ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.12 19:57:00 - [111] Originally by: Gavin DeVries Originally by: g0ggalor How is it counter intuitive. If someone steals what actually is considered yours, they turn flashy red. If they take what is not yours, they don't turn flashy red. How intuitive do you need it to be? The only thing I'd say is counterintuitive would be the difference in how "ownership" is granted. I blow up a pirate ship. According to CONCORD (based on their response) I "own" the loot in the wreck, but I don't "own" the salvage in the wreck. If someone takes loot from the wreck, and I shoot them, CONCORD stays out of it. If someone salvages from the wreck, and I shoot them, CONCORD blows up my ship. That's the only thing I can see that isn't straight-forward. And yet the issue is so big with MRs that it is well known that the game considers loot MR property, and salvage whoever gets there first. I would also agree with the idea that if salvage is made MR property, then ninjas will simply steal both loot and salvage because no MR with a decent ship will risk losing it by shooting a looter. It will be just like can flippers, but with billion dollar ships instead of lowly mining frigs.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.12 20:11:00 - [112] Originally by: g0ggalor How is it counter intuitive. If someone steals what actually is considered yours, they turn flashy red. If they take what is not yours, they don't turn flashy red. How intuitive do you need it to be? Do you actually understand the word 'counterintuitive'? coun+ter+in+tu+i+tive (kountr-n-t-tv, -ty-) adj. Contrary to what intuition or common sense would indicate Basically - to someone looking at the situation without CCP's 'definition' or past history, salvage being open to anyone makes no sense. To wit: 1) The wreck shows as being allocated to the person who destroyed it (their photo on show info etc.) 2) No one but the person above can tractor beam the wreck and the text that pops up if others try state that it isn't 'yours' to tractor 3) The stuff 'in' the wreck is yours. It has value. If someone takes it they're stealing. 4) The wreck was 'created' by the mission runner. Unlike asteroids etc. (a common ninja argument) it wasn't created by the world but by direct action of a player (ie - a mission runner accepting a mission) 5) The destroyed wreck is only a wreck through the agency of the mission runner expending resources (ammo etc.) to destroy the rat and create the wreck 6) There is the argument that salvage is 'space junk' but this argument makes no sense to the average mission runner either as 'junk' is something without value, or with very low value and salvage components are high value items - usually higher value than the player owned 'loot' particularly in lower level missions. 7) There is no real sense to the 'This gun off this wreck is loot - but this damaged console off this wreck is salvage and has different ownership'. They're both bits of an ex-ship. To a mission runner who hasn't dug through the forums and read a zillion ninja salvage arguments, he sees the salvage as his for all the above reasons and probably a few more. Once he reads the zillion salvage arguments (back and forth) he probably understands WHAT CCP's stated position is and why things work they way they do. But if he's anything like me he hasn't a hot clue as to what kind of sense that makes to the devs. I've been involved in a lot of these 'discussions' and the entire position makes zero sense to me. Ninja 'explanations' as to the logic of it are either circular (It's because it's what CCP wanted) or just stupid (It's 'junk' so has no ownership because no one owns 'junk'. Really? 14 million ISK 'junk'? But that T1 Ladar set over there worth 4200 ISK is 'valuable property' and not 'junk'. What was Concord smoking again because I want some!) So, yes, it is entirely counterintuitive. In fact, even after analysis it makes no bloody sense at all! May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.08.12 20:20:00 - [113] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Yawn Your jaw must hurt cause you Yawn a lot. I hope you get what you want. I really do. I want to see the crying on the forums when this happens. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.12 20:21:00 - [114] Originally by: g0ggalor I would also agree with the idea that if salvage is made MR property, then ninjas will simply steal both loot and salvage because no MR with a decent ship will risk losing it by shooting a looter. It will be just like can flippers, but with billion dollar ships instead of lowly mining frigs. That argument's been made before and is spurious. Were it advantageous to do so, the ninjas would just take loot now etc. etc. The vast majority of them do not and, in fact, do their level best NOT to take any loot. Were it a desireable action, it would already be occurring. The reality is that can flippers don't generally fly very good ships (I've seen the rare exception) and target unarmed ships. Ninjas stealing are targeting armed ships which are more likely to respond violently, resulting in the loss of the ninja's griefboat. While some may then use the aggro to come back and attack the MR in a PvP fit ship that would be the exception rather than the rule or it would be happening right now. Because, of course, if the salvage ship pops and the pod warps off, the mission runner is perfectly capable of warping off and getting a PvP ship of their own. Oh, and a look at Suddenly Ninjas Killboard will show that they lose 2-3 ships for every ship they manage to kill. We are not talking about strong PvP types here. Remember, salvaging is a money MAKING venture. PvP is a money LOSING venture. Hence the reason things are as they are. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.12 20:23:00 - [115] Originally by: Traidor Disloyal Your jaw must hurt cause you Yawn a lot. I hope you get what you want. I really do. I want to see the crying on the forums when this happens. I yawn a lot because I'm tired of the same entirely spurious arguments over and over and over. They're dull and make me sleepy. And I'm glad we agree. As to whether it causes forum whining or not, I expect that it will but not from the Mission Runner crowd. Only one way to find out though. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Salliene Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.12 20:30:00 - [116] I have come to agree with the mission runners. Salvaging a wreck that they made is totally wrong, I get that now. As part of turning over a new leaf I will now devote my life to assisting mission runners. I will come into their missions and destroy as many ships as possible for them. I know that because of the screwed up game mechanics that this will mean that I will most likely get the bounties that the mission runner would have gotten, but since I am saving them time I am sure they won't mind my assistance.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.12 20:36:00 - [117] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom That argument's been made before and is spurious. Were it advantageous to do so, the ninjas would just take loot now etc. etc. Many ninja's do take loot now. In fact I believe that SN specialize in this. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom The vast majority of them do not and, in fact, do their level best NOT to take any loot. Were it a desireable action, it would already be occurring. Just because you've seen a few not take loot does not mean the 'vast majority' are like that. Its like the ninja's saying how the 'vast majority' of MR's are carebears (although really they are). You keep claiming that MR's are these awesome groups not to be trifled with but the ones that I DO take the loot from either just target me and sit there or leave and never come back. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom The reality is that can flippers don't generally fly very good ships (I've seen the rare exception) and target unarmed ships. Ninjas stealing are targeting armed ships which are more likely to respond violently, resulting in the loss of the ninja's griefboat. While some may then use the aggro to come back and attack the MR in a PvP fit ship that would be the exception rather than the rule or it would be happening right now. Because, of course, if the salvage ship pops and the pod warps off, the mission runner is perfectly capable of warping off and getting a PvP ship of their own. Sadly many of the common mission runners believe their faction fit CNR's can handle a pvp fight because it handle well in a mission. Or in many other cases they simply refit a scram on it and think its pvp ready and its just not the case. I know you keep claiming that many MR's are alts of these big 0.0 uber fighters but many of them really are not, especially in the major hubs. Like Miners there are many who enjoy solely the mission running aspect of the game and are content with just doing mission after mission. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Remember, Mission Running is a money MAKING venture. PvP is a money LOSING venture. Hence the reason things are as they are. Fix'd Originally by: Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
El Liptonez	Posted - 2009.08.12 20:38:00 - [118] Originally by: Karentaki Well done on making a nice original thread... http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1143161 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1140081 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1128088 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1136730 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1120748 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1116980 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115347 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115497 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1092372 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115121 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115359 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1114874 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115387 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1092372 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1138530 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1067174 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1122548 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1113790 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1109936 ... oh wait. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1145299
Borun Tal Minmatar Virtual Rock Industries	Posted - 2009.08.12 20:45:00 - [119] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Borun Tal Gawd, I'm getting sick of seeing this come up time and again. Me too actually. Ever wonder WHY it comes up so much? I'll let you in on the secret- because the current mechanic is extremely counterintuitive and only makes sense to those who either: a) Abuse it for benefit or b) Have been around so long that the original explanations actually make sense to them still even though they've long ceased to be relevant. In other words, until the mechanic changes in some way, expect to see these threads ad nauseum. Non-sense. I haven't been around very long, and I don't steal LOOT from other people, but the mechanic makes perfect sense to me. I have no problem with it at all. I posted four options above that apparently aren't good enough for some. How about one crystal clear rationalization: cuz CCP says that's the rules. Don't like it? You know where WoW is.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.12 21:00:00 - [120] Originally by: Borun Tal Non-sense. I haven't been around very long, <snip> I posted four options above that apparently aren't good enough for some. How about one crystal clear rationalization: cuz CCP says that's the rules. Don't like it? You know where WoW is. Ah - you haven't 'been around very long' but already you know the whole history, eh? Wait around for a bit and you'll see. These threads pop up quite religiously. They're nearly always started by some mission runner who has no idea why ninjas can do what they do. See the counterintuitive discussion above. And they will continue to do so until the rules are made more intuitive. And, just to let you in on a little non-secret that we who have been around for awhile already know - just because CCP set something up doesn't mean it will stay that way. POS warfare is about to change. FW didn't exist when I started and neither did epic arcs. Vagabonds used to be unbeatable and broke the physics engine etc. etc. Lots of things change in EVE and many of those changes are due to player feedback. And please don't be either dull or silly. I've never played WoW, and likely never will. It interests me slightly less than having a root canal does. The only MMORPG I've ever even considered is EVE Online and I don't see that changing anytime soon. When you've been around a couple of years, come talk to me, until then stop cluttering up the thread with meaningless commentary. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)

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