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Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 16:46:00 - [211] Originally by: Mel Lifera Nonetheless - are you saying the above scenario is something that, allowing the "real life" existence of the world of EVE, could not realistically happen? Would scanning people running missions be impossible for some reason? Would warping to them be impossible? Cleaning up the wrecks while they're otherwise occupied - undoable? Some sort of physical law preventing it from happening? Actually, in many cases yes. If you did any missioning you would know that deadspace areas are supposed to be areas in which you can literally hide entire military bases (See Portal to War) from simple scanning. If you can hide a giant base structure a ship should be either ridiculously hard or impossible. Quote: And would your wild west hero <snip> This isn't in any way part of the discussion Quote: You know how many missions we find where the loot and wrecks have been completely abandoned, period? Not a clue. Nor do I care. I have no issue at all with you salvaging abandoned wrecks. As long as they're really abandoned. Perhaps those missions you're so deprecating about 'abandoning' their wrecks were just trying to get the mission done before the bonus timer expired and were going to come back and salvage in a dedicated ship after so doing. Or maybe they are blitzing and want to do all the salvaging at once and have the site bookmarked. If they're truly abandoned, go nuts. This is why I support a limited time claim on wrecks and loot (I've advocated an hour - half their lifespan) expressly so that salvagers have something legit to do that isn't griefing. Quote: I truly shudder to think how all these mission runners had been surviving before the advent of wreckage and salvaging in EVE. There must've been NO billion-ISK MR's back then. That would be accurate, actually. Getting to a billion ISK used to be a huge milestone - something that very few did. Now a billion is almost chump change. So, yes, go back far enough and that's exactly the case. Quote: At any rate, "salvaging" is not a loophole at all. Mission runners have absolutely no problem with the mere concept of being able to pull a few mil out of a field of garbage This just makes me laugh so hard. A field of 'garbage' worth millions. Yeah. Some 'garbage'. Quote: I have absolutely no skill in archaeology yet, so I cannot use an analyzer module. But, I can scan down magnetometric sites like a charm! Logically, a mission runner who claims that "Ninja Salvaging" should be disallowed and is a "glitch" would be required to argue that I, as the person who first scans down the archaeological site, should be the only person allowed to harvest whatever item lies within - whether I have the appropriate module fitted or skill trained, or not. Sorry, no. For one thing - the mag site was not GENERATED by your scan. Like asteroids, it's out there for everyone and anyone to find. Not the same at all. Mission sites DO NOT EXIST and cannot be 'found' until the mission runner talks to their agent. The argument is spurious as these two things are not the same at all. Apples and Aircraft carriers. I don't think salvaging should be 'gone' just that it should be a proper mini-profession that makes sense and isn't immersion breaking. Right now, it makes no sense and is entirely immersion breaking. Not to mention game imbalancing (see the post above). May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 16:49:00 - [212] Originally by: Tippia And the key question here is: so what? Game balance. Makes no sense at all to run missions. With a much smaller investment in both time and ISK one can make the same amount with less risk. So what? It's completely unbalanced. Not to mention having all manner of other strikes against it like immersion breakage and grief play, but that one alone should be plenty. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Brock Dillinger	Posted - 2009.08.19 16:50:00 - [213] Originally by: Ufen Zakalwe Y'know with all these "CCP say it ain't broken answers" with regards to wreck ownership can I just point out that this is also their answer to the spectacularly messed up sound. There's a difference between f'd up code (the sound problems) and a mechanic working by design (what you guys see as a problem).
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 16:54:00 - [214] Originally by: g0ggalor a) Its not a glitch. Let me quotes CCP since you seem to have missed this point, "The salvage mechanics are working as intended." Tell me, how does that translate to "glitch" in your mind? CCP does NOT equal 'Perfect' or 'Never makes a mistake'. This is one of them. It makes no sense and is immersion breaking. Therefore a glitch. One made by a less than stellar CCP decision but a glitch nonetheless. These are the same folks who put out modules that let players break their own physics engine remember. They do great work overall but they are NOT perfect. Quote: b) How many missions do you get T2 salvage? Don't answer, since I know. Its none. Zip. Zero. Spoken like someone who never runs missions. Sorry to tell you but there are now a few elite T2 wrecks that show up occasionally in missions and lots in plexes and exploration sites (which also get ninjaed and so are just as relevant). Quote: You act like every piece of salvage is made of gold when really there are only a handful of salvage components that are worth much at all and the rest are barely as profitable as ammo drops. Not in the least - however it has been documented many times that the average total value of salvage exceeds the average value of loot so the point stands. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 16:57:00 - [215] Originally by: Mav'Lite in retort to Jarvis Hellstrom's very indepth post at the top of this page...... Well look at that. An entire post of ad hominem attacks that never even tries to address the subject matter or even make a point. That would be funny were it not so sad and childish. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Brock Dillinger	Posted - 2009.08.19 16:59:00 - [216] Originally by: Tippia Why is it such a horrible crime that other professions pay more than mission running? Because, well... it's just not fair, dang it!! stamps foot like an spoiled schoolgirl
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:01:00 - [217] Originally by: Mel Lifera Shooting noncombatants? In today's real-world carebear theatre of war? Yeah - it's called martial law and it does still happen. They just tend not to do it in front of the reporters. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Riedle	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:05:00 - [218] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Mel Lifera Shooting noncombatants? In today's real-world carebear theatre of war? Yeah - it's called martial law and it does still happen. They just tend not to do it in front of the reporters. I would love to ninja salvage and ninja loot your missions. Your tears are simply delicious.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:08:00 - [219] Quote: Sorry, no. For one thing - the mag site was not GENERATED by your scan. Like asteroids, it's out there for everyone and anyone to find. Not the same at all. Yes it is. The beacon exists, but the site doesn't actually spawn until someone warps in...and when someone warps in, it starts a 72 hour timer to despawn.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:08:00 - [220] Originally by: Brock Dillinger Originally by: Tippia Why is it such a horrible crime that other professions pay more than mission running? Because, well... it's just not fair, dang it!! stamps foot like an spoiled schoolgirl There will always be some pursuit that 'makes more' than others in any game. Currently in EVE it's trading. There's nothing wrong with something making more or less than mission running - however there does, in a game at least, need to be sensible balance to it. Salvaging, as currently enacted, can be done in dirt cheap ships by a virtually unskilled character and has the same return as a L4 mission runner, assuming both are done correctly by the player. However the L4 Runner requires a far greater investment in skills, standings and ISK to get that level of income and takes more risk (granted, not a lot more but more nonetheless). That makes it imbalanced as it currently exists. Enough so that rebalancing makes sense. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:11:00 - [221] Originally by: Riedle I would love to ninja salvage and ninja loot your missions. Your tears are simply delicious. On the rare occasions I run missions, I don't generally encounter ninjas. Should I do so, I generally have a suicide ship kicking around or will build one. The only communication you're likely to get from me in game will be from the mouth of my blaster cannon. But if you REALLY want to come salvage the good stuff that we sometimes get from complexes, by all means fly on down to Tenal where you can't hide behind Concord's skirts. That'll be delicious. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:12:00 - [222] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Yes it is. The beacon exists, but the site doesn't actually spawn until someone warps in...and when someone warps in, it starts a 72 hour timer to despawn. The beacon is all that's relevant to the argument. The rest is just a method to save on server calls to keep the game running faster. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Mel Lifera	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:20:00 - [223] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Actually, in many cases yes. If you did any missioning you would know that deadspace areas are supposed to be areas in which you can literally hide entire military bases (See Portal to War) from simple scanning. If you can hide a giant base structure a ship should be either ridiculously hard or impossible. Except the Player Guide ( http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Deadspace ) says that the only thing special about deadspaces is that you cannot warp inside them. Further, it mentions that all deadspaces have beacons near the entrance gates (which is true) which can be scanned for - that's how you find DED complexes after all; or have you forgotten about that segment of gameplay? Never mind - there's no way you can assert that we didn't scan down your ship just before you entered the deadspace. We did end up warping to the gate after all, not directly to you. Of course, the Player Guide also addresses the invasion of your mission for the purpose of salvaging wrecks ( http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Container_and_wreck_ownership ); but of course since it doesn't say what you want it to say, I'm sure you can find a way to rationalize it into irrelevance. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Quote: And would your wild west hero <snip> This isn't in any way part of the discussion Funny. You can create and use any analogy you want, but when somebody decides to extend or argue within it, you handwave. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Perhaps those missions you're so deprecating about 'abandoning' their wrecks were just trying to get the mission done before the bonus timer expired and were going to come back and salvage in a dedicated ship after so doing. Or maybe they are blitzing and want to do all the salvaging at once and have the site bookmarked. This is like going AFK while warping through two-dozen gates. You knowingly take the risk that when you RTK, you'll find yourself in a pod, or even a clone vat. Ninjas aren't a "brand new thing" and there isn't a single person who is unaware of their existence. You make wrecks, you take the chance someone else will nab them - and that chance is doubled or even trebled if you simply leave them for whatever reason. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom That would be accurate, actually. Getting to a billion ISK used to be a huge milestone - something that very few did. Now a billion is almost chump change. So, yes, go back far enough and that's exactly the case. If a billion is chump change, a couple mil from your missions won't make the difference you insist it does. Besides, we're not the ones who made a billion "chump change". You can thank ISK farmers for that. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Mission sites DO NOT EXIST and cannot be 'found' until the mission runner talks to their agent. The argument is spurious as these two things are not the same at all. Apples and Aircraft carriers. You're jumping in-and-out of "character" to suit your argument. The deadspaces that you're supposed to be visiting, according to "canon", are supposed to always have been there. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom I don't think salvaging should be 'gone' just that it should be a proper mini-profession that makes sense and isn't immersion breaking. You still haven't explained why it is immersion-breaking to encounter other players in a MMO. There's a whole franchise of little star trek games you can play if you want to be by yourself. Some of them even offer limited online interaction with other players only when you want it. Amazing!
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:45:00 - [224] Originally by: Mel Lifera Except the Player Guide says that the only thing special about deadspaces is that you cannot warp inside them. The EVE player guide has been woefully incomplete and missing critical data forever. Sorry, no help there. Quote: Further, it mentions that all deadspaces have beacons near the entrance gates (which is true) which can be scanned for - that's how you find DED complexes after all; or have you forgotten about that segment of gameplay? It's a generalization from a poorly written document and we both know it. The actual text in many missions makes reference to deadspace complexes being hard to find. Many missions center around an agent sending a capsuleer to 'find out what's out there' by flying into a complex or what have you. That is fact right out of actual gameplay not some dead document. It is a problem that the mission text and, in fact, the entire 'mission based universe' doesn't match how the game plays. It's something else that needs fixing (even more than the issue we're discussing). Most missions wouldn't happen if the NPCs played by the same rules as players. Quote: Never mind - there's no way you can assert that we didn't scan down your ship just before you entered the deadspace. We did end up warping to the gate after all, not directly to you. We both know that ain't how it works. Quote: Of course, the Player Guide also addresses the invasion of your mission for the purpose of salvaging wrecks <snip> The argument is not about what IS but about what it SHOULD be. We know the status quo. You like it, I say it should be changed. "It's how it currently is" does not address the point. We know that. Quote: Funny. You can create and use any analogy you want, but when somebody decides to extend or argue within it, you handwave. Not relevant is not relevant. If you kept to the discussion I wouldn't need to ignore irrelevant things you write. Quote: Ninjas aren't a "brand new thing" and there isn't a single person who is unaware of their existence. You make wrecks, you take the chance someone else will nab them - and that chance is doubled or even trebled if you simply leave them for whatever reason. That is pure rubbish. LOTS of new players don't know about ninja salvage. Hence all the incensed anti-ninja posts. EVE is a game with a steep learning curve. New folks who step in without a mentor are only rarely going to understand ninja salvage. Quote: If a billion is chump change, a couple mil from your missions won't make the difference you insist it does. Again, irrelevant to the point. The point is the percentage of value that salvage represents. Were that low, you'd have a point. It isn't and you don't. Quote: You're jumping in-and-out of "character" to suit your argument. The deadspaces that you're supposed to be visiting, according to "canon", are supposed to always have been there. The issue is complex and affects both immersion (in character) and game balance (out of character). In order to disucss completely 'jumping in and out' is required. Are you ever actually going to get to a point? Quote: You still haven't explained why it is immersion-breaking to encounter other players in a MMO. I see - you never actually HAD a real point and were just trying to muddy the issue with irrelevant text. "Immersion breaking" means 'in character' therefore it has nothing to do with whether there is a human behind the interface of the pixels the character is interacting with. You can make the argument that having more 'real players' involved in PVE is a good thing - perhaps even with some success, but it isn't called Player vs. ENVIRONMENT for nothing. What you're doing is shoving an element of PvP into the mix, which would be okay if you didn't hide behind the PVE elements in the game like Concord. Notice the entire lack of ninjas in null sec? May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
FOl2TY8 Revolutionary United Front Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:54:00 - [225] Wanted to add in a point, if you think that salvagers earn as much as a MR than you are seriously mistaken. It is in no way as profitable or more profitable than mission running or even mining. You don't like it because it interferes with your game play. Eve is setup so that it is very easy for anyone to interfere with someone else's game play. You don't like it, hell a lot of people don't like it but that's the way the game is. I love that aspect along with a lot of other people but because you don't, you feel entitled to demand a major game change. Is it really that bad that you have to expend so much time and energy into fighting it? I have had my mission salvaged maybe twice. Neither time did it bother me because I am immune to grief in a video game. I could be hauling 70 billion isk worth of crap get it blown up and it wouldn't matter. What you are trying to accomplish is remove an entire profession from Eve because you don't like it. ---------- This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve
Terminus Vindictus Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.19 18:03:00 - [226] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom You can make the argument that having more 'real players' involved in PVE is a good thing - perhaps even with some success, but it isn't called Player vs. ENVIRONMENT for nothing. What you're doing is shoving an element of PvP into the mix, which would be okay if you didn't hide behind the PVE elements in the game like Concord. There's no such thing as strictly PvE or PvP in EVE. It's all intertwined, and that's a fundamental difference that sets EVE apart from other games. As long as you're not willing to accept that simple reality, you won't enjoy this game. The entire point of the game is that you're not safe from other players regardless of where you are in the game. You insist on treating the different elements of the game separately, but they're not, and they shouldn't be. If that's what you want to change about EVE, then please do us a favor and move back to that other mythical MMO you mentioned earlier because we don't want what you're selling. Hello, I'm from the Government and I'm here to help.
Riedle	Posted - 2009.08.19 18:33:00 - [227] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Riedle I would love to ninja salvage and ninja loot your missions. Your tears are simply delicious. On the rare occasions I run missions, I don't generally encounter ninjas. Should I do so, I generally have a suicide ship kicking around or will build one. The only communication you're likely to get from me in game will be from the mouth of my blaster cannon. But if you REALLY want to come salvage the good stuff that we sometimes get from complexes, by all means fly on down to Tenal where you can't hide behind Concord's skirts. That'll be delicious. Or we can pretend that we all went through that and get to the part where you Dec me.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 19:09:00 - [228] Originally by: FOl2TY8 Wanted to add in a point, if you think that salvagers earn as much as a MR than you are seriously mistaken. It is in no way as profitable or more profitable than mission running or even mining. I don't personally have any idea how much they make - the particular claim was made by a ninja in another thread who claims 25 million per hour (I believe the system was Dodixie) which is far more than high sec mining and on a par with many L4 mission runners. As it doesn't actually benefit their argument to make such claims I see no reason to believe they lied about it although I suppose they could have. Quote: ou don't like it because it interferes with your game play. Incorrect. I don't like it because I believe it to be wrong and bad for the game. I've only ever personally encountered a single ninja and I drove him off without a lot of fuss. It isn't personal in the least. Quote: Eve is setup so that it is very easy for anyone to interfere with someone else's game play. You don't like it, hell a lot of people don't like it but that's the way the game is. I love that aspect along with a lot of other people but because you don't, you feel entitled to demand a major game change. Making salvagers go flashy is hardly a 'major' game change. I stand nothing to gain or lose from it either way, to be honest. Do you? Quote: Is it really that bad that you have to expend so much time and energy into fighting it? I have had my mission salvaged maybe twice. Neither time did it bother me because I am immune to grief in a video game. I could be hauling 70 billion isk worth of crap get it blown up and it wouldn't matter. What you are trying to accomplish is remove an entire profession from Eve because you don't like it. Not a bit of it. I happen to think that it has a very decided place, just not in its current incarnation where grief play is overly common. Quit putting words in my mouth. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 19:13:00 - [229] Originally by: Terminus Vindictus There's no such thing as strictly PvE or PvP in EVE. It's all intertwined, and that's a fundamental difference that sets EVE apart from other games. I agree with you and, in fact, referenced that very fact in my argument. Quote: <snip> then please do us a favor and move back to that other mythical MMO you mentioned earlier because we don't want what you're selling. Making salvagers flashy red, which increases player conflict, is somehow advocating reducing it? That's what I've been saying all along, along with some bonuses to the salvage profession (like sensible tractor beams and scannable wrecks) in order to balance the change. What is it with people thinking I want it gone entirely? I've never said that, it just needs some changes. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 19:15:00 - [230] Originally by: Riedle Or we can pretend that we all went through that and get to the part where you Dec me. Not a Tigers director and certainly not a senior operative of my Alliance so not really an option. You are also under some kind of illusion that I care enough about your existence to bother even if I was. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 19:20:00 - [231] This thread has gone both boring and circular. I've seen all the usual 'ninja' arguments and endured the usual empty threats and ad hominem attacks. As it has ceased to provide amusement and never really provided much in the way of thought provoking discussion, I believe I'm done with it. See you in the next interminable salvage thread. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Wongdong Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.19 19:26:00 - [232] Originally by: Salliene I have come to agree with the mission runners. Salvaging a wreck that they made is totally wrong, I get that now. As part of turning over a new leaf I will now devote my life to assisting mission runners. I will come into their missions and destroy as many ships as possible for them. I know that because of the screwed up game mechanics that this will mean that I will most likely get the bounties that the mission runner would have gotten, but since I am saving them time I am sure they won't mind my assistance. lol^^^ this for sure,then you can salvage ur own wrecks and get bounties. i foresee ninja mission runner QQ threads if this takes up popularity.so skrew ninja salvaging,go for the big bucks. Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.19 19:30:00 - [233] This stupid whine....I mean thread still going? Originally by: Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
Skandrannon22	Posted - 2009.08.19 20:00:00 - [234] I was going to read all 8 pages of this... but after the first two were the same thing being said over and over, I say two things. 1. to the folks who say " stop running missions and play the game " .. really? that is playing the game, just like pvp, mining, building stuff, trying to scam, or whatever.. 2. To everyone on all 8 pages who said they are 'looking for someone to shoot them to start a fight' you need to understand how the game works. /beginlessononhowthegameworks If someone shoots them, they get Concordsploded. If "said ninja" was looking for a fight, they can grow a pair, and steal from the can, plain and simple. /endlessonhowthegameworks That is all -Skan
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.19 20:18:00 - [235] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 19/08/2009 20:18:23 Quote: As part of turning over a new leaf I will now devote my life to assisting mission runners. I will come into their missions and destroy as many ships as possible for them. I know that because of the screwed up game mechanics that this will mean that I will most likely get the bounties that the mission runner would have gotten, but since I am saving them time I am sure they won't mind my assistance. [Maelstrom, Bounty Ninja] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Power Diagnostic System I Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field I 100MN Afterburner II Shield Recharger II Ship Scanner I 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Hobgoblin I x20 Just wait for the rat to hit 3/4 or 1/2 structure and then hit F1.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.08.19 20:43:00 - [236] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Salvaging, as currently enacted, can be done in dirt cheap ships by a virtually unskilled character and has the same return as a L4 mission runner, assuming both are done correctly by the player. However the L4 Runner requires a far greater investment in skills, standings and ISK to get that level of income and takes more risk (granted, not a lot more but more nonetheless). That makes it imbalanced as it currently exists. The balance is the same as for trading: missions involve zero competetiveness — it makes complete sense that a high amount of effort is required for that advantage; salvaging is competetive, so the cost of entry is much lower. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Mel Lifera	Posted - 2009.08.19 20:45:00 - [237] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom On the rare occasions I run missions, I don't generally encounter ninjas. Should I do so, I generally have a suicide ship kicking around or will build one. The only communication you're likely to get from me in game will be from the mouth of my blaster cannon. Well ain't that precious, and about time we got to the "lol 1v1 I can tottaly pwn u" reaction, albeit one with some nicer-than-usual duds.
Mel Lifera	Posted - 2009.08.19 21:10:00 - [238] Edited by: Mel Lifera on 19/08/2009 21:12:09 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom It's a generalization from a poorly written document and we both know it...That is fact right out of actual gameplay not some dead document. Exactly as I said - rationalization. Although I do find it curious that you continue to play this game, what with its "dead" bad documentation, horrifically overpowered noobs, and being run by a company that can't admit that a minprofession they designed and intended to work the way it does is really an exploit, and they just don't know it. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom It is a problem that the mission text and, in fact, the entire 'mission based universe' doesn't match how the game plays. It's something else that needs fixing (even more than the issue we're discussing). Most missions wouldn't happen if the NPCs played by the same rules as players. And yet other players showing up in the missions is what ruins the "immersion" for you. This gets better and better. I also love the "doesn't match how the game plays" statement, considering you tried to override my earlier argument with "well the mission text says so, that settles it". Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom The argument is not about what IS but about what it SHOULD be. We know the status quo. You like it, I say it should be changed. "It's how it currently is" does not address the point. We know that. Then write a petition, and accept whatever answer you receive with a little grace - even if it may serve to deflate your zeppelin-sized ego. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Not relevant is not relevant. If you kept to the discussion I wouldn't need to ignore irrelevant things you write. Wow, I bet you can win whole battles just by saying "I won this battle" in local. Connection with reality not required. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom LOTS of new players don't know about ninja salvage. Hence all the incensed anti-ninja posts. EVE is a game with a steep learning curve. New folks who step in without a mentor are only rarely going to understand ninja salvage. Then it's fortunate these poor new players aren't the ones running the level 4 missions we salvage - wouldn't you agree? Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Again, irrelevant to the point. The point is the percentage of value that salvage represents. Were that low, you'd have a point. It isn't and you don't. Begging your pardon - but the status quo doesn't need to have a "point", because it already exists. All it has to do is rebut the misshapen arguments for change that you call your own "points" - something that is easier to do with you than some others who've argued in these forums, I might add. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom The issue is complex and affects both immersion (in character) and game balance (out of character). In order to disucss completely 'jumping in and out' is required. Are you ever actually going to get to a point? Refer to above, and the fact that your "immersion" argument has already been exposed as spurious. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom You can make the argument that having more 'real players' involved in PVE is a good thing - perhaps even with some success, but it isn't called Player vs. ENVIRONMENT for nothing. What you're doing is shoving an element of PvP into the mix, which would be okay if you didn't hide behind the PVE elements in the game like Concord. Your arguments being divided between in-and-out-of character wouldn't be a problem, except that you're doing it in subarguments over individual points. You make an in-character argument, I make an in-character rebuttal, and you resort to some out-of-character rationalizing as a counter. Your arguments have no logical flow. And no - what we're doing is willingly and gladly allowing the GAME DESIGN to gently place us together in the same space as you. Howdy, neighbor!
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.19 21:17:00 - [239] Please explain to me how it is immersion breaking? its immersion in the higest level i feel, you get to really pump your emotions int o the game! And where is my credit for that very nice Carebear for Ninja Salvagers rights post I made... I like how you just skipped over a honest MR (never Ninjaed in my life) thinking it a fair game mechanic... Keep harping at the Ninjas, they are not the only ones that support the harshness of eve! Signed a Carebear (i'll still sing this song to any Ninjas that come into my mission! Be warned! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNm5Hqow78I )
Mel Lifera	Posted - 2009.08.19 21:21:00 - [240] Originally by: Mad Maulkin Please explain to me how it is immersion breaking? its immersion in the higest level i feel, you get to really pump your emotions int o the game! And where is my credit for that very nice Carebear for Ninja Salvagers rights post I made... I like how you just skipped over a honest MR (never Ninjaed in my life) thinking it a fair game mechanic... Keep harping at the Ninjas, they are not the only ones that support the harshness of eve! Signed a Carebear (i'll still sing this song to any Ninjas that come into my mission! Be warned! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNm5Hqow78I ) Dear Carebear: I do apologize. Arguments from reason are always, always welcome, whomever gives them. You are a beacon for others to follow.

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