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Treyah The humble Crew	Posted - 2009.08.09 11:03:00 - [1] They should be kill worthy, just as if they were stealing the loot in the cans. It's the same thing, if you prohibit players from looting another person's can - then the salvage should count too. Quit being lazy and change the code please - or else let me rob from other people's cans with only a sec hit.
Enyalie Sanguine Legion	Posted - 2009.08.09 11:06:00 - [2] The salvage does not belong to you; quit being lazy and adapt you crayon.
Treyah The humble Crew	Posted - 2009.08.09 11:19:00 - [3] That's exactly the issue - it should belong to the player that killed it. The only exception being non-npc wrecks. You can't tell me that these wannabee pirates are scared of some pew-pew can you? CCP is just on the fence with this and doesn't want to rework the coding. I mean really, what kind of pirate wouldn't welcome the thought of an agro'd mission runner and some pew pew in Empire. Widen your horizons and layoff the crackerjack insults imo.
Jim Nakamura	Posted - 2009.08.09 11:23:00 - [4] Originally by: Treyah CCP is just on the fence with this and doesn't want to rework the coding. I mean really, what kind of pirate wouldn't welcome the thought of an agro'd mission runner and some pew pew in Empire. Are you high, or just wilfully ignorant? CCP staff have gone on record repeatedly stating that wrecks (but not loot) are not your property, they are free for anyone to salvage, and this is working exactly as they intend. If you wait about five minutes, I'm sure someone will provide a delicious serving of copypasta confirming this.
Zhebais	Posted - 2009.08.09 11:24:00 - [5] CCP has spoken. Salvage is not stealing. ItÆs not an exploit. ItÆs an intended mini-profession: CCP Mitnal: ôOur policy on this is extremely clearà Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing.ö GM Faolchu: ôThis is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit.ö Senior GM Ytterbium: ôPlayers are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will à and doing so is not considered as an exploit.ö Software Engineer CCP Prism X: ôBefore the salvage enters those containers [your cargo-hold / hangar] it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence itÆs not stealing.ö
1OfMany	Posted - 2009.08.09 11:26:00 - [6] Originally by: Treyah That's exactly the issue - it should belong to the player that killed it. The only exception being non-npc wrecks. You can't tell me that these wannabee pirates are scared of some pew-pew can you? CCP is just on the fence with this and doesn't want to rework the coding. I mean really, what kind of pirate wouldn't welcome the thought of an agro'd mission runner and some pew pew in Empire. Widen your horizons and layoff the crackerjack insults imo. First of all, i think they are pirates .. with a carebear edge, aka they 'wannabe' pirates, but are afraid to go to low sec for real risks.. Second i think you're post is fail, as the poster before me mentioned, allready said done and closed by CCP and accept it ....
Liitar	Posted - 2009.08.09 11:26:00 - [7] Originally by: Treyah You can't tell me that these wannabee pirates are scared of some pew-pew can you? You realise that most if not all ninja salvagers want it changed as well, that way noobs like you will shoot them and get prawned
Gin G Halls Of Valhalla	Posted - 2009.08.09 11:27:00 - [8] Edited by: Gin G on 09/08/2009 11:28:31 ok read the GM responses and normal salvage laws the salvage DOSNT belong to you its a free for all you DONT have a god given right to that salvage and if your to slow to get it before someone els that tough on you. and if/when they do change it i garantee you that you will be back here crying your little eyes out saying you want ti changed back because your shooting them and getting shot to ribbons Please refrain from editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist
Treyah The humble Crew	Posted - 2009.08.09 11:33:00 - [9] It's a failed system and I think everyone that plays the game knows CCP has went on record stating that it is working as intended - but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't still be changed. I never implied that I was confused about this, so yeah, go-go reading comprehension... Point being, there are a number of people that think the change would be for the better. Even as one of the posters above stated -
kushkan Amarr Imperial House Ordos Machiavellian Insurrection	Posted - 2009.08.09 11:49:00 - [10] Edited by: kushkan on 09/08/2009 11:49:59 Edited by: kushkan on 09/08/2009 11:49:01 pop the wrecks every time the crawl close to it its be worth the ninja tears :) repeat and in the long therm the know its not profitabel for them bother you. ow the salvage isent yours but you can fight for it.
Arec Bardwin	Posted - 2009.08.09 11:56:00 - [11] Posting in a rare ninja salvage whine thread.
Gavin DeVries	Posted - 2009.08.09 11:57:00 - [12] To the OP: You're better off with the current system, believe me. A fair chunk of the ninja salvagers are doing the same thing can flippers do, they're hoping to provoke a legal fight. In the current system, the only way the mission runner can legally shoot the ninja salvager is if the salvager steals loot from one of the wrecks the mission runner created. You know what the stupidest thing a mission runner can do if the salvager turns blinky red is? You guessed it: shoot the looter. Even if you manage to blow them up (you probably won't), they're going to be right back in a ship that's almost guaranteed to destroy your mission vessel, and instead of just losing the salvage, you'll lose all the salvage + your ship + probably the mission as well. ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2009.08.09 13:30:00 - [13] Originally by: Treyah Point being, there are a number of people that think the change would be for the better. Even as one of the posters above stated - And obviously there are a number of players thinking it should stay as is. As many of the posters above stated. What's the point of your point?
Eldern Minderhost	Posted - 2009.08.09 15:50:00 - [14] Edited by: Eldern Minderhost on 09/08/2009 15:51:14 First, in terms of reading comprehension: saying that CCP is "on the fence" is explicitly wrong. The term "on the fence" is used to describe an entity that is indifferent or uncertain of their stance on an issue or action. Given the constant, consistent, responses from CCP on salvaging they are clearly not "on the fence". Just because you dislike an aspect of the game does not make it a bad aspect of the game. Yes, there are numerous players who dislike others' ability to salvage their missions; however, this does not mean that those players are correct. I'm sure the thousands of Chinese ISK farmers and botters strongly dislike high-sec ganking or low-sec piracy, that doesn't mean that those players are correct. Simply because you are upset at a part of the game does not mean that said aspect should be removed or changed. Especially if it has been stated by the Devs to be working as intended. Grow up and learn that you can't always get what you want. I know that if I could always get what I wanted, there wouldn't be a CONCORD to protect players like you.
aetherguy881 Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.09 15:52:00 - [15] If you're tired of the ninja's, move. They can find you, but their newly acquired stomping grounds won't be as lucrative. Or play the game and stop doing missions for isk. ------------------- Always remember this about EVE: Life is cheap, or 15 bucks a month.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.09 17:36:00 - [16] the OP is entirely right. Ninjasalvagers make missionrunning not worth doing. He should engage in more profitable hisec activity, like hisec exploration or mining. Oh ****.
Taua Roqa Minmatar junQtion	Posted - 2009.08.09 17:41:00 - [17] everytime someone makes a thread like this someone reads it and their eyes glaze over, and BAM another ninja salvager is born. it's like some kind of memetic virus with it's own breeding cycle; someone ninjas someones mission, mission runner QQs on forum, unsuspecting newb is infected by the tears, he ninjas someones mission, ...... [
Yahweh Graf	Posted - 2009.08.09 18:23:00 - [18] thank you for posting with your main. look forward to getting some of your loot. you didn't like ninja's taking your salvage. i'm sure you'll love when i take something else.
Bazuka	Posted - 2009.08.09 19:06:00 - [19] I`ve done my share of missioning over the last 3 years and I`ve only met one single ninja salvager (last month). There are many missions that I dont salvage and I couldn`t care less about this issue it doesn`t bother me at all but i do have some questions for the constant defenders of the salvage mechanics. Ninja salvaging gives noobs a chance to salvage wrecks of rats they can`t even kill. It gives a week old nooblet the best ISK income he can possibly hope for with little to no effort. So every nooblet learns this and instead of playing the game they just go salvage wrecks and miss on so many better features and options this game offers. How is this "working as intended"again? Where is the risk vs.reward or time-invested vs reward here? How did this nooblet deserve to make a lot of ISK after few days of playing? It IS a failed game mechanic that caters to the average-insta graphitication-lazy-Joe gamer of today and everyone knows it. CCP lets it be because it`s only a minor annoyance for mission runners so they don`t whine in big enough numbers that warrants a game mechanic change. The way I see it there are are only 2 type of players defending this. 1. The nooblets themselves, forum fighting to save their cash-cow. 2. The usual nay-sayers and haters that for no appearant reason hate on mission runners and "carebears"in general. ___________ CareMyBear!
BlindBleu Gallente BOOMers Inc	Posted - 2009.08.09 19:07:00 - [20] Ninja Salvaging is like PvP in Eve. It does not care if you want to do it or not, it is there. Some will do it some will not.shrug Now if you are finding more Ninja Salvagers that are looting from your wrecks to see if you will target them... 1.Round up about 5+ Corpmates/Anti Ninja Salvagers etc. 2.Get into Mission with multiple gates, with at least one Battleship ie bait fitted for the mission, another ship(s) fitted for PvP. Make sure you have a way to target/hit/web/scram a ship that can move over 1,000 m/sec. 3.If a Salvager loots one of your wrecks, pop him fast. 4.Have the rest of your Fleet/Swarm come thru the gates into the pocket, where the bait ship and PvP ships are. 5.Wait around the area where the gate drops incoming ships. 6.When the Ninja Salvager comes back in his PvP Ship, Pop goes the Ninja. 7.If the Ninja brings along other Ninjas, maybe that T3 Cruiser from around Dodixie, Pop Goes the Ninja. 8.Bring in more Corpmates/Anti Ninja Salvagers etc. 9.Rinse and Repeat until enough fun is had by all. Note "most" Ninja Salvagers are above average in PvP skills and ships, some are "exceptionally" skilled. So be prepared for that. While this is going on, you will be drawing Ninja Salvagers that have been seeking PvP, from around the area. Letting other mission runners, be free of the wreck looting Ninja Salvagers. Every Plan lasts until the first shot is fired. "I have a Plan, a good one." Generally means it is not. If Yellow it get a Fellow Killed
Yahweh Graf	Posted - 2009.08.09 19:34:00 - [21] honestly, I run my own lvl 4's with alt. being bored one day I tried out the ninja thing just for lol's and see how much one could actually get. so, i go to motsu. scan and bm with helios. then, change ships to fast t1 frig fitted all highs with salvagers mid sb and ab. only salvaging the med. and large wrecks. still couldn't get anywhere near what i could get isk wise running 4's of my own. had lots of fun doing it though. cause you know it drives most carebears CRAZY.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.08.09 19:39:00 - [22] Edited by: Breaker77 on 09/08/2009 19:39:11 I agree salvaging should flag them to the mission running and here is why: 1. Ninja steals salvage 2. Mission runner shoots ninja 3. 10 of Ninjas corpmates warp in and blow up a multibillion ISK faction fitted CNR/Golem/insert other expensive ship 4. Ninja then salvages that wreck and loots the faction mods that survived. 5. Mission runner goes crying on the forums about how salvaging shouldn't flag anyone as a criminal. It's a win-win situation for the Mission runners and the ninjas. The mission runners get to protect their salvage and the ninjas get to make insane ISK from dropped faction mods / T2 salvage. edit: spelling
Yahweh Graf	Posted - 2009.08.09 19:45:00 - [23] Originally by: Breaker77 Edited by: Breaker77 on 09/08/2009 19:39:1110 of Ninjas corpmates warp in and blow up a multibillion ISK faction fitted CNR/Golem/insert other expensive ship game mechanics only allow the thief to fight back, corp. can't help him. can someone confirm this. or did something change recently?
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.08.09 19:46:00 - [24] Originally by: Yahweh Graf Originally by: Breaker77 Edited by: Breaker77 on 09/08/2009 19:39:1110 of Ninjas corpmates warp in and blow up a multibillion ISK faction fitted CNR/Golem/insert other expensive ship game mechanics only allow the thief to fight back, corp. can't help him. can someone confirm this. or did something change recently? Well they can always RR the ninja in the hopes that the runner will shoot them.
Xing Fey	Posted - 2009.08.09 20:28:00 - [25] I once went to an asteroid belt and people there started stealing my asteroids! PLZ HELP CCP!
Diggles Darkreign Caldari Department of Homeland Insecurity	Posted - 2009.08.09 20:29:00 - [26] Originally by: Taua Roqa everytime someone makes a thread like this someone reads it and their eyes glaze over, and BAM another ninja salvager is born. it's like some kind of memetic virus with it's own breeding cycle; someone ninjas someones mission, mission runner QQs on forum, unsuspecting newb is infected by the tears, he ninjas someones mission, ...... You nailed it, thats how I got started! Why run my own lvl 4's when I can harvest carebear tears, roleplay LOL's and make money!
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.08.09 20:34:00 - [27] Originally by: Treyah it should belong to the player that killed it. Why? You've already been rewarded for the kill. Quote: CCP is just on the fence with this Incorrect. They are firmly planted on the opposite side of the fence from where you're standing. Quote: Widen your horizons and layoff the crackerjack insults imo. Widen your horizons and accept the fact that you don't deserve the salvage if you can't even make the tiny effort of making it yours. Also, ridiculing those of an opposite viewpoint from the start and then telling them to lay off the insults makes you a sanctimonious ***. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki*
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.09 20:35:00 - [28] Originally by: Yahweh Graf honestly, I run my own lvl 4's with alt. being bored one day I tried out the ninja thing just for lol's and see how much one could actually get. so, i go to motsu. scan and bm with helios. then, change ships to fast t1 frig fitted all highs with salvagers mid sb and ab. only salvaging the med. and large wrecks. still couldn't get anywhere near what i could get isk wise running 4's of my own. had lots of fun doing it though. cause you know it drives most carebears CRAZY. hint: Don't salvage Serpentis missions. They suck. So do Guristas.
Yahweh Graf	Posted - 2009.08.09 20:57:00 - [29] Edited by: Yahweh Graf on 09/08/2009 21:03:34 Originally by: Kahega Amielden Originally by: Yahweh Graf honestly, I run my own lvl 4's with alt. being bored one day I tried out the ninja thing just for lol's and see how much one could actually get. so, i go to motsu. scan and bm with helios. then, change ships to fast t1 frig fitted all highs with salvagers mid sb and ab. only salvaging the med. and large wrecks. still couldn't get anywhere near what i could get isk wise running 4's of my own. had lots of fun doing it though. cause you know it drives most carebears CRAZY. hint: Don't salvage Serpentis missions. They suck. So do Guristas. i've found the best to salvage are blood, sansha's and angels. i usually don't bother with any others unless i know there is a high value loot drop. i.e. arbalest hml. getting no bounties i try to reject most drones as well. just in it for lp and standings mostly.
Soliscout	Posted - 2009.08.09 20:58:00 - [30] Edited by: Soliscout on 09/08/2009 20:59:07 Edited by: Soliscout on 09/08/2009 20:58:49 Edited by: Soliscout on 09/08/2009 20:58:07 believe me you do not want the system to be changed....otherwise you could buy a new cnr/golem/wtfcarebearmobile every two days since any decent ninja salvager just wants you to agress him, so he can blow you to pieces also posting in a rare ninja salvage whine
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.08.09 21:30:00 - [31] Originally by: Kahega Amielden hint: Don't salvage Serpentis missions. They suck. So do Guristas. Are the Serpentis Battleships being stingy with the armor plates??
Marguerite Antiki	Posted - 2009.08.09 21:41:00 - [32] Originally by: Soliscout believe me you do not want the system to be changed....otherwise you could buy a new cnr/golem/wtfcarebearmobile every two days since any decent ninja salvager just wants you to agress him, so he can blow you to pieces also posting in a rare ninja salvage whine So true, I salvage all the time from other peoples missions. I do get some lip service, sometimes I dont. I do however get people constantly locking me up. Which makes me wonder, are they really going to shoot a frig worth peanuts over their T2 baby (and i know what you have as my ship scanner shows you have some sweet stuff worth popping). Therefore, dont change the rules or else we may begin to see a high turn over of battleships and battlecruisers PvE players and end up with more tears on the forums.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.09 21:43:00 - [33] Quote: Are the Serpentis Battleships being stingy with the armor plates?? Serpentis ships almost never give armor plates...Not anywhere remotely close to the amount Sansha/Blood give. Even Guristas are better then serpentis...at least they give ward consoles which are 90K each.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.08.09 22:43:00 - [34] I'm pleased to report that there is now a significant proportion of ninja salvagers in Emolgranlan! I ran three missions yesterday and each one was visited by ninja salvagers before I'd even cleared the first room. [Aussie players: join channel ANZAC]
Mova B	Posted - 2009.08.09 23:00:00 - [35] Originally by: Treyah They should be kill worthy, just as if they were stealing the loot in the cans. It's the same thing, if you prohibit players from looting another person's can - then the salvage should count too. Quit being lazy and change the code please - or else let me rob from other people's cans with only a sec hit. Agree. Why? Because, take a look who much you make ISK by doing lvl4 missions without salvage... Better off mining with pimped hulk character...
Naomi Noxx	Posted - 2009.08.10 01:04:00 - [36] GMs On Salvage CCP has spoken. Salvage is not stealing. ItÆs not an exploit. ItÆs an intended mini-profession: Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
Kata Dakini Amarr Flatiron Academy	Posted - 2009.08.10 01:35:00 - [37] Maybe this "intended mechanic" has nothing to do with ninja salvaging. Rather, CCP wants players to be allowed to salvage period. If only the owner of the loot could salvage the wreck, there would be much less salvage to be found (assuming similar drop amounts). The purpose is not that CCP wants people to be salvagers, but rather CCP wants someone to salvage the wrecks. Ambiguously clear? For more enjoyment and greater efficiency, consumption is being standardized.
Willy Pete Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.10 03:11:00 - [38] Originally by: Yahweh Graf honestly, I run my own lvl 4's with alt. being bored one day I tried out the ninja thing just for lol's and see how much one could actually get. so, i go to motsu. scan and bm with helios. then, change ships to fast t1 frig fitted all highs with salvagers mid sb and ab. only salvaging the med. and large wrecks. still couldn't get anywhere near what i could get isk wise running 4's of my own. had lots of fun doing it though. cause you know it drives most carebears CRAZY. This guy gets ninja salvagers. We aren't about isk per hour. (But the occasional MR pinata sure is fun.)
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2009.08.10 03:35:00 - [39] <sarcasm>If I start mining in an asteroid belt first, I should get kill rights on anyone else that mines there. I warped there and started mining first, so it's all mine! Anyone else that warps in after me is lazy and should find their own asteroid belt instead of stealing my ore!</sarcasm>
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2009.08.10 03:38:00 - [40] Originally by: Marguerite Antiki I do get some lip service, sometimes I dont. I think you don't understand what "lip service" means.
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.10 05:23:00 - [41] OP, stop missioning in major hubs. There are plenty of other excellent agents available that don't have 200 people in system.
danyalsun	Posted - 2009.08.10 05:56:00 - [42] Why not get someone from your corp to follow you and they do the salvaging and looting? Within the corp im in, it seems someone will always tag along on someone else's mission and salvage or help out if needed.
Taua Roqa Minmatar junQtion	Posted - 2009.08.10 06:38:00 - [43] Originally by: Diggles Darkreign Originally by: Taua Roqa everytime someone makes a thread like this someone reads it and their eyes glaze over, and BAM another ninja salvager is born. it's like some kind of memetic virus with it's own breeding cycle; someone ninjas someones mission, mission runner QQs on forum, unsuspecting newb is infected by the tears, he ninjas someones mission, ...... You nailed it, thats how I got started! Why run my own lvl 4's when I can harvest carebear tears, roleplay LOL's and make money! damn right [
Elmo Vormar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2009.08.10 06:47:00 - [44] Originally by: Treyah They should be kill worthy, just as if they were stealing the loot in the cans. It's the same thing, if you prohibit players from looting another person's can - then the salvage should count too. Quit being lazy and change the code please - or else let me rob from other people's cans with only a sec hit. well salvage the wrecks right away then or ask a friend to tag along to salvage. If i see a mission runner with a dedicated salalvage friend with him i dont even bother to salvage his wrecks cause i wont make enough profit in the time i spend chasing wrecks. So stop beeing lazy yourself and make some friends
DonDrakos	Posted - 2009.08.10 10:39:00 - [45] Originally by: Kyra Felann <sarcasm>If I start mining in an asteroid belt first, I should get kill rights on anyone else that mines there. I warped there and started mining first, so it's all mine! Anyone else that warps in after me is lazy and should find their own asteroid belt instead of stealing my ore!</sarcasm> sarcasm fail
Galmarr Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.10 10:39:00 - [46] I love these threads. SN gets at least 5 or more new recruits per week. Salvage ops went from 1 scheduled per week to 2, and a few impromtu ops in between, expanded to other systems with WH ops as well. Kahega, if your reading this, perhaps we can post total isk per month from salvage ops. And total barrels of tears per hour.
Miss'ile Bunny	Posted - 2009.08.10 10:50:00 - [47] My main flies lvl 4 missions and doesn't salvage at all. Can't be bothered. It's boring. OK, the arguement is that I am missing out on millions of isk, but the bounties alone are worth it and I can do about 5 missions in an evening. I just like to shoot things. If a ninja salvager came into one of my missions, I would let them get on with it. Not a problem. However, I don't like certain tactics used. A lot of so called salvagers are anything but. They tend to fly small ships and keep bumping the mission runners ship. Not good if they have all the aggro and need to warp asap. That is very low in my book.
Herpes Sweatrash	Posted - 2009.08.10 11:27:00 - [48] I don't really mind ninja salvagers because I tend to just grab whatever is in range of my dominix. I like to send out warrior IIs and pop wrecks just as the ninja gets in salvage range or send out my ogres to a distant BS (ninja will follow) then just before it pops change target to a BS far off in the opposite direction. When the ninja starts rage bumping me (petition lol) I'll drop a can with some ammo and junk so he doesn't leave empty handed.
Salliene Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.10 15:20:00 - [49] Edited by: Salliene on 10/08/2009 15:21:44 Originally by: Bazuka Ninja salvaging gives noobs a chance to salvage wrecks of rats they can`t even kill. It gives a week old nooblet the best ISK income he can possibly hope for with little to no effort. So every nooblet learns this and instead of playing the game they just go salvage wrecks and miss on so many better features and options this game offers. How is this "working as intended"again? Where is the risk vs.reward or time-invested vs reward here? How did this nooblet deserve to make a lot of ISK after few days of playing? It IS a failed game mechanic that caters to the average-insta graphitication-lazy-Joe gamer of today and everyone knows it. CCP lets it be because it`s only a minor annoyance for mission runners so they don`t whine in big enough numbers that warrants a game mechanic change. This is a total fail argument. No true newbie can be successfully and lucratively ninja salvaging in a week unless their hand is being held and they are doing some intensive research. Skills take time to learn, probing takes practice, and new player ships are slow as hell until their nav and piloting skills get decent. We had a brand new player in the alliance channel this week starting off his career as a ninja salvager. He had never played EVE before, was not someones alt. He was brand new to the game and was not making a crap load of money. In fact after his first five missions that he had scanned down (and remember it was taking 15-20 minutes for him to scan down a mission cause of his skills) he was still in the red cause he lost a ship.
FireT	Posted - 2009.08.10 16:04:00 - [50] Originally by: Kyra Felann <sarcasm>If I start mining in an asteroid belt first, I should get kill rights on anyone else that mines there. I warped there and started mining first, so it's all mine! Anyone else that warps in after me is lazy and should find their own asteroid belt instead of stealing my ore!</sarcasm> Serious question: can we implement this too? I cna just imagine the sky rocketing ore / mineral prices. Because all you would have is people sit infront of their computers and await the returning server after maintanance. Then they just fly into the roid belts and nibble on them. All they then have to do is camp belts. Now make those things corp / alliance ops and BAM you own entire systems full of roids. Now make that available for ice belts too and suddenly ice / fuel is worth more than titants. Yes please impliment this. I want to own my own ice belt.
Boink'urr Minmatar Wasserette De Tarthorst	Posted - 2009.08.10 17:01:00 - [51] All fine and dandy. But what i don't understand is this: Why is the NPC's hull salvage free of any ownership, but the modules/cargo/drones that survived the bang are owned by the shooter? /me is looking... confused.
Izztyrr Maemtor Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.10 17:34:00 - [52] Originally by: Boink'urr All fine and dandy. But what i don't understand is this: Why is the NPC's hull salvage free of any ownership, but the modules/cargo/drones that survived the bang are owned by the shooter? /me is looking... confused. Good point Sir. It should all be free of ownership. Then there would be no confusion.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.10 18:50:00 - [53] Edited by: THE L0CK on 10/08/2009 18:52:15 Originally by: Breaker77 Edited by: Breaker77 on 09/08/2009 19:39:11 I agree salvaging should flag them to the mission running and here is why: 1. Ninja steals salvage 2. Mission runner shoots ninja 3. 10 of Ninjas corpmates warp in and blow up a multibillion ISK faction fitted CNR/Golem/insert other expensive ship 4. Ninja then salvages that wreck and loots the faction mods that survived. 5. Mission runner goes crying on the forums about how salvaging shouldn't flag anyone as a criminal. It's a win-win situation for the Mission runners and the ninjas. The mission runners get to protect their salvage and the ninjas get to make insane ISK from dropped faction mods / T2 salvage. edit: spelling Dude you totally **ed that up 1. Ninja Salvages unclaimed salvage 2. Mission runner shoots unflagged ninja 3. Concorde shoots mission runner 4. Ninja then salvages that wreck and loots the faction mods that survived while mission runner rage logs 5. Mission runner goes crying on the forums about how salvaging should flag you as a criminal. Or 1. Ninja steals loot from the wreck or can hoping for some pvp action. 2. Mission runner leaves mission and cancels it taking a standings hit. 3. Mission runner runs to forums and cries about ebil pirates. Edit: btw Taua is right. I read these threads about ninja's salvagers time and time again and I became one. LEt it be known that it is your fault op. Originally by:** Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
Boink'urr Minmatar Wasserette De Tarthorst	Posted - 2009.08.10 19:23:00 - [54] Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Originally by: Boink'urr All fine and dandy. But what i don't understand is this: Why is the NPC's hull salvage free of any ownership, but the modules/cargo/drones that survived the bang are owned by the shooter? /me is looking... confused. Good point Sir. It should all be free of ownership. Then there would be no confusion. Exactly my point. Either make it all owned by the mission runner or make it all free to take. Right now it leads to a lot of consfusion and players feeling robbed only due to the lack of logic and consistency in the design of this feature.
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.10 19:54:00 - [55] Originally by: Boink'urr Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Originally by: Boink'urr All fine and dandy. But what i don't understand is this: Why is the NPC's hull salvage free of any ownership, but the modules/cargo/drones that survived the bang are owned by the shooter? /me is looking... confused. Good point Sir. It should all be free of ownership. Then there would be no confusion. Exactly my point. Either make it all owned by the mission runner or make it all free to take. Right now it leads to a lot of consfusion and players feeling robbed only due to the lack of logic and consistency in the design of this feature. It isn't confusing at all. If someone takes ur loot, they turn flashy red indicating to someone who doesn't know what the rules are that they are allowed to shoot the person. If someone salvages the wrecks, they don't turn flashy red, so you can't shoot.
Boink'urr Minmatar Wasserette De Tarthorst	Posted - 2009.08.10 20:04:00 - [56] Originally by: g0ggalor Originally by: Boink'urr Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Originally by: Boink'urr All fine and dandy. But what i don't understand is this: Why is the NPC's hull salvage free of any ownership, but the modules/cargo/drones that survived the bang are owned by the shooter? /me is looking... confused. Good point Sir. It should all be free of ownership. Then there would be no confusion. Exactly my point. Either make it all owned by the mission runner or make it all free to take. Right now it leads to a lot of consfusion and players feeling robbed only due to the lack of logic and consistency in the design of this feature. It isn't confusing at all. If someone takes ur loot, they turn flashy red indicating to someone who doesn't know what the rules are that they are allowed to shoot the person. If someone salvages the wrecks, they don't turn flashy red, so you can't shoot. Next!
vondronage Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.08.10 20:16:00 - [57] I went into low-sec with my new Dominix yesterday to try out mining Kernite for the first time and I was pinned down and lost my Domi in less than 5 minutes after I got there. You know what the pilot said ? "I could have podded you, just be glad I didn't" So, back to using my Myrm to go around taking any salvage I can find for awhile and do you know what I have to say to you salvage whiners ? Just be glad I can't use a tractor beam on the wrecks you make.
Gokekijin	Posted - 2009.08.10 20:35:00 - [58] I really don't understand why this becomes such a big sticking point. Easiest thing to do is get over it and roll on. Barring that, if it really bothers you that much that somone is in your mission salvaging, just shoot the money. pretty much anything but torps cycles faster than a salvager, so you just start mushing wrecks until they get bored and leave. I personally keep one rail out of group for this purpose. It's not mine, but if i can't have it, no one can, muahhahahahaha.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.10 21:06:00 - [59] Originally by: Gavin DeVries To the OP: You're better off with the current system, believe me. A fair chunk of the ninja salvagers are doing the same thing can flippers do, they're hoping to provoke a legal fight. In the current system, the only way the mission runner can legally shoot the ninja salvager is if the salvager steals loot from one of the wrecks the mission runner created. You know what the stupidest thing a mission runner can do if the salvager turns blinky red is? You guessed it: shoot the looter. Yawn What poo. This assumes that the bulk of mission runners are boring carebears who know nothing rather than what they really are - alts of some 0.0 PvPer making ISK to replace lost ships. They shoot the little frig and kill it and warp off. When the big mean ninja comes back he finds himself facing off against a proper PvP fit ship just waiting to gank him. So say the kill boards of the ninjas at any rate, but don't take my word for it, they're easy to find and read yourself. Right now, the entire aggro/not aggro is in the hands of the mission invaders. Given that very very few of them ever aggro and that they can do so easily, the myth of the fearsome PvP ninja is pretty much just that. I'm sure there are some, as they're a big group, but it's a small minority at best based on their most common behaviour. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Wa'roun Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2009.08.11 00:54:00 - [60] It has been said the devs made it this way because supposedly maritime law states that a ship's cargo belongs to the owner but the hull can be salvaged by any salvaging company. Join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Marguerite Antiki	Posted - 2009.08.11 02:52:00 - [61] Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Originally by: Boink'urr All fine and dandy. But what i don't understand is this: Why is the NPC's hull salvage free of any ownership, but the modules/cargo/drones that survived the bang are owned by the shooter? /me is looking... confused. Good point Sir. It should all be free of ownership. Then there would be no confusion. OK lets try another analogy. <<Scooby Doo Wavey Matrix Moves>> Lets pretend this is wthe wild wild west and you - a gunslinger - have a mission to hunt down and kill a smuggler. You find said smuggler and shoot him and the horse he is on and also the donkey with the goods. Its a great bloody mess, blood, bullets and no heart beats from anythign alive once your Tech2 Dual Wielding Smith n Weston Weapons make an end of them (the NPC) So now you have a dead horse/donkey and the smuggled goods they had. You go over and take the goods from the saddlebags and throw it into your saddlebag (cargo hold) BUT THEN, OMGWTFBBQ!!11one1 an Indian comes along and they are unarmed with nothing more than a Skinning knife. They see the dead mess and decide to take the skin from the animal and maybe some meat. why ? Well its a dead carcass that has already been ransacked by the Gun slinger and all thats left is the 'salvage'. So the outcome is, the Gunman could of, shot the carcass to oblivion so there is nothign left, or carried a hunting knife and skinned it himself or better yet, had a friend come along and help skin it (salvage) But as we move along the story our Wild West hero gets angry and goes on a sooky la la rampage and runs to town and tells the local Sheriff (CCP) that a lone indian with a knife skinned and took some meat from an animal. The Sheriff gets a good laugh as the Wild West gun slinger already has a saddle bag full of loot, cashed in the reward for killing the smuggler and then received a reputation boost for bringing justice to the area; but the Wild West gunslinger is still unhappy that some one else took a minor item. The Sherrif (CCP) asks the gun slinger why he doesnt carry a knife and do it himself next time before the indian arrives as they were there, but alas the rant and ramblings about how that wastes a holster slot and they are slow and they have a small ***** etc etc just rambles on so the sheriff states to grow a pair and do it as it is not Illegal. Thus ends the little story. <<Scooby Doo Wavey Matrix Moves Back to Reality>> So, there we have it, CCP have said it isnt illegal, nor shall it warrant Concord or an hostile intervention as you cna salvage it, or anyone else can. It comes down to whether you have the balls to drop a slot and do it yourself or make arrangements for some one else to do it for you.
Stil Harkonnen	Posted - 2009.08.11 03:18:00 - [62] didn't read OP, but I assume you're whining and want your salvage to have ownership. If you give wrecks ownership, then the wrecks will no longer belong to you. Why? kill any player and what happens? The loot AND wreck belong to the player you got blow-ed up. So the wrecks would then belong to the pirate faction that you are running the mission against. You will not be able to tractor beam them, or you will allow ninjas to be able to tractor beam them. Either way, you lose. Stop complaining and be happy with what you have, as the mechanics right now are not how they should be.
Gavin DeVries	Posted - 2009.08.11 04:17:00 - [63] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom This assumes that the bulk of mission runners are boring carebears who know nothing rather than what they really are - alts of some 0.0 PvPer making ISK to replace lost ships. No, this assumes that the bulk of the mission runners creating these threads are boring carebears who know nothing. The alt of an experienced null-sec PvPer isn't going to come on here complaining about some ninja stealing "his" salvage; they'll do something instead. ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
stankpod	Posted - 2009.08.11 04:23:00 - [64] Ninja salvage with its ease of skill training and the abilty to hide behind npc corps makes mission runners pretty much at their mercy. They should lose faction or something from the corp the mission runner is doing the mission for. Or be flagged for PvP only while they are in your mission area, If they warp out they should become unflagged. Mission runners have the option to only use junky agents in BFE and lose even more money? Thats a pretty **** option if you ask me. And for all the ( OMG I PvP your a carebear people ) most new players do missions to get cash and kill time while training skills up, and dont want to jump into pvp to fast and lose everything they have. And you all have a mission running alts anyways, so pls put your e-peen away.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.11 04:28:00 - [65] Quote: Mission runners have the option to only use junky agents in BFE and lose even more money? You're totally right. With ninjasalvaging, missionrunning just isn't a profitable profession. Just give it up; start doing hisec exploration or mining and start -really- raking in the cash.
stankpod	Posted - 2009.08.11 05:07:00 - [66] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: Mission runners have the option to only use junky agents in BFE and lose even more money? You're totally right. With ninjasalvaging, missionrunning just isn't a profitable profession. Just give it up; start doing hisec exploration or mining and start -really- raking in the cash. I could say the same for you.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.08.11 05:24:00 - [67] Originally by: stankpod Ninja salvage with its ease of skill training and the abilty to hide behind npc corps makes mission runners pretty much at their mercy. How so? Quote: They should lose faction or something from the corp the mission runner is doing the mission for. Why? Quote: Or be flagged for PvP only while they are in your mission area, If they warp out they should become unflagged. Why? Quote: Mission runners have the option to only use junky agents in BFE and lose even more money? Thats a pretty ** option if you ask me. Not really. You should do the math on the difference between a "junky" agent and a good one. Quote:** And for all the ( OMG I PvP your a carebear people ) most new players do missions to get cash and kill time while training skills up, and dont want to jump into pvp to fast and lose everything they have. Bad idea. The sooner they jump in and learn how not to lose everything, the better they will be off. If they wait until they've trained their skills up, they will lose everything they have because they have wasted all that time and not learned the skills they need. Quote: And you all have a mission running alts anyways, so pls put your e-peen away. The difference is that those don't complain about something that is a fully intended part of the game. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
stankpod	Posted - 2009.08.11 05:50:00 - [68] Its all about balance and right now its tipped in the ninja's favor and the lure of easy money with little skills, no faction loss, You can do it in a destoyer with 4 salvagers and an AB. Basicly make enough isk to buy your ship 4 times for every mission you ninja 10 times if you do it in a frig. You dont think thats a little out of whack? If not then I should make 400 mill a mission and be able to do lvl 4 in an Ibis.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.08.11 06:00:00 - [69] Edited by: Tippia on 11/08/2009 06:02:01 Originally by: stankpod You dont think thats a little out of whack? No. Why do you think it is? Quote: If not then I should make 400 mill a mission and be able to do lvl 4 in an Ibis. Why do you presume that all professions should be made equal? Why do you think a non-competetive activity (in a PvP game, no less) should be the most lucrative thing in the entire game? Why do you need to earn more by missioning? Why is it so hard for you to make the (allegedly very small) effort that goes into salvaging, thereby beating the ninja to the punch? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
stankpod	Posted - 2009.08.11 06:31:00 - [70] Dam Tippia I feel like im texting my wife telling her im going to a strip bar talking to you. WHY because (In my opinion I think its right)
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.08.11 06:39:00 - [71] Originally by: stankpod WHY because (In my opinion I think its right) So in other words, there is no reason why salvagers should be flagged. Glad we sorted that one out. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
stankpod	Posted - 2009.08.11 06:56:00 - [72] Yes salvagers should be free to do whatever they like. ( you win ) And never argue with a woman or a man pretending to be a woman.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.08.11 07:12:00 - [73] Originally by: stankpod Its all about balance and right now its tipped in the ninja's favor and the lure of easy money with little skills, no faction loss, You can do it in a destoyer with 4 salvagers and an AB. The mission-runner can use tractor beams to make the salvage process easier - the exploration-based salvager cannot. To I get angry when someone comes into "my" mission space and salvages "my" wrecks out from under me? Certainly I do. But I'm not getting angry that they are doing it, only that they beat my salvage alt to the wrecks. Did you know that the last person to shoot an NPC gets the bounty? Wait until you have someone in a Golem invading your mission spaces to run your missions for you, taking all the bounties, with no repercussions! [Aussie players: join channel ANZAC]
Ufen Zakalwe	Posted - 2009.08.11 11:19:00 - [74] Ah the standard Ninja Carebear posturing and "I am a naughty pirate" vague empty threats. It's as predictable as the mission runners whining. Face it, Ninja Salavaging = More carebear than running missions. Rather than tell mission runners to go and do other things, why not try this "risk" thing I hear you banging on about, maybe try doing missions and OMG get shot at?, or scan down wormholes? Good money to be had in wormholes. Use those scanning skills for more profit.
Kariva	Posted - 2009.08.11 12:32:00 - [75] Let's say so "All game mechanics are features until CCP decides it's a bug... "
Salliene Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.11 13:32:00 - [76] Originally by: stankpod And for all the ( OMG I PvP your a carebear people ) most new players do missions to get cash and kill time while training skills up, and dont want to jump into pvp to fast and lose everything they have. New players aren't doing Level 4's. If you aren't in a Level 4 in a Battleship, your odds of getting ninja salvaged are pretty low cause your ship is a little harder to find and the wrecks you are making aren't worth the time to mess around with. Originally by: stankpod And you all have a mission running alts anyways, so pls put your e-peen away. I don't have any alts. None. Period. Nada. One account. One character.
Salliene Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.11 13:40:00 - [77] Originally by: Ufen Zakalwe Face it, Ninja Salavaging = More carebear than running missions. And? Originally by: Ufen Zakalwe Rather than tell mission runners to go and do other things, why not try this "risk" thing I hear you banging on about, maybe try doing missions and OMG get shot at?, or scan down wormholes? Good money to be had in wormholes. Use those scanning skills for more profit. I get shot at all the time, by NPCs and by players who I have been flagged to. Plus when I get shot at, it is not after having consulted EVE-Survival to see exactly which type of tank I should be equipped with, what ammo I should be carrying, where everything is going to spawn, and the best and fastest way to run the room. Everything I do is done on the fly with no website holding my hand every step of the way. I also do missions from time to time. Unfortunately they are not technically MY mission. Sometimes a player will leave their mission for a while hoping I will leave. If I am bored enough and if there are enough juicy bounties then I will just go get my Domi and finish the mission up. I also do wormholes. I do whatever I want to do, whether it makes me a lot of money, zero money, or costs me money.
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.11 14:08:00 - [78] Originally by: stankpod Mission runners have the option to only use junky agents in BFE and lose even more money? Thats a pretty ** option if you ask me. You are wrong, there are more than just "junky agents in BFE" for mission runners to go to. I know of a Q20 L4 agent in high sec, no low sec neighbors, that never has more than 50 people in local. Do you research before you spout off like you know what you are talking about. Originally by:** stankpod Its all about balance and right now its tipped in the ninja's favor So the MR gets the bounties, the LP, the rewards, and the loot and the ninja gets the salvage (which doesn't belong to anyone). Yes, the balance is definitely tipped toward the ninja.
Xiafu	Posted - 2009.08.11 15:30:00 - [79] We need more ninja salvagers. More ninja salvagers equals more salvage which equals cheaper salvage which equals cheaper rigs.
Galmarr Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.11 16:19:00 - [80] Originally by: stankpod Ninja salvage with its ease of skill training and the abilty to hide behind npc corps makes mission runners pretty much at their mercy. Who's hiding behind NPC corps. Read the signature. The name says it all. Have no mercy on me, because I wont have mercy on you.
Izztyrr Maemtor Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.11 16:23:00 - [81] Originally by: Xiafu We need more ninja salvagers. More ninja salvagers equals more salvage which equals cheaper salvage which equals cheaper rigs. Don't worry my friend. Every one of these threads creates more ninjas. Reading them is what got me and a lot of others started in the profession.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.11 17:04:00 - [82] Originally by: Marguerite Antiki <snip>but the Wild West gunslinger is still unhappy that some one else took a minor item. And here's where the 'junk','minor' etc. analogy/argument completely falls apart. See, in a L1 I ran not to long ago that 'minor item' was worth FOURTEEN TIMES all the other rewards combined. In a decent L4 (depending on the race of the NPC) it's between 25 and 50% of the take. Were it 5-10%, yeah, you'd have a point and an argument. But that ain't the case. Your 'gunslinger' is annoyed because while he was still shooting at the bad guys some injun came along and ran off with the prized golden fleece that the cowboy couldn't skin himself (yet) because he was still busy shooting bad guys. None of these threads would be occurring if salvaging truly were a 'mini profession' which was what CCP has stated. There are ninjas who have posted rates here that are as high in ISK/hour as the mission runner himself and sometimes higher. That's no longer a 'mini' anything. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.11 17:13:00 - [83] Originally by: Wa'roun It has been said the devs made it this way because supposedly maritime law states that a ship's cargo belongs to the owner but the hull can be salvaged by any salvaging company. If the Devs actually stated that (doubtful) then they didn't bother to do their research. In reality EVERYTHING on a non-military ship belongs to the original owners. Salvagers may make a claim on it and then have to go before an admiralty court who make a decision of how much the salvage team gets for their efforts. Under normal circumstances it's around 50% as a maximum. Military ships are always considered property of their governments and usually war graves so salvaging them is a completely different proposition. The only exception is ancient shipwrecks (several hundred years plus) where there generally isn't considered to be any owner anymore and the salvage companies can claim everything, although there is a cut to the local government based on local law if the wreck isn't in international waters. And even the ancient shipwreck argument can be argued in court - there is one before the courts right now concerning a salvage company, a Spanish treasure ship and the Spanish government. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.11 17:18:00 - [84] Originally by: Gavin DeVries The alt of an experienced null-sec PvPer isn't going to come on here complaining about some ninja stealing "his" salvage; they'll do something instead. They might - but there's that annoying 'Concorddoken' thing if they do. Or they can shoot the wrecks, but that costs them money (which is why they're doing the mission in the first place). Those are the only 'things' currently available as even some none central mission areas are starting to suffer under the ninja plague. Oh, yes, he could salvage on the go, depending on ship, race etc. but that eats into mission time (which eats into profit). Lots of reasons why such a character might make their displeasure known in hopes that CCP will change the rules. You can call it 'whining' if you like. I call it advocating for change. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Salliene Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.11 17:31:00 - [85] ITT continued whining about the fact that something memorable might happen in a mission.
Mistress Evita Caldari Booze and Hookers	Posted - 2009.08.11 18:51:00 - [86] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Lots of reasons why such a character might make their displeasure known in hopes that CCP will change the rules. You can call it 'whining' if you like. I call it advocating for change. I call it whining. reading the posts here one would think that there is a ninja salvager connected at the hip of every single mission runner in eve. I've been mission running for years. I remember when there was no salvage and when level 4's took more then one person cause of the instant agro and spawns. The only time I ran missions in mission hubs was when I first started doing them. A week later I left and started doing missions other then Caldari Navy. I hate running missions where there are more then 40 people in system. It is possible to find good level 4 agents not in mission hubs. All it takes is to do some research and the will power to not run missions for the Caldari Navy. The only time I had someone warp into my mission was a Privateer looking for a war target. I was in a system about three jumps out of Jita. You want to do missions in the mission hubs then expect people going into your missions. You don't like it then do something about it. Blow their dang ship up if they are in an NPC corp or war dec em if they are not. Stand on your own two feet and stop yelling for Mommy CCP to come help you cause the big bad meany ninja salvager is picking on you.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.11 18:56:00 - [87] Quote: I could say the same for you. the difference is that I don't ***** on the forums when something happens that could possibly reduce my profit.
Kariva	Posted - 2009.08.11 19:16:00 - [88] I don't like my post being deleted for no reason so again. All aspects of game are a feature untill CCp said that's a bug... There were many things they nerfed saying it was a bug. I heard that silent shield resistance "bug" will bee fixed in next patch .. If you delete that you are .... So if i had an accident and crashed my car someone could salvage it??? But if i shot the thief i'm a criminal and will be blown by police(concord) High sec insurance. 15 BS gank ganking a freighter in so called high sec What they risk?? small standing loss. ? 25mil for insurance of their ships... STOP joking CPP and start to fix obvious problems. Who need stupid chrnicles, ets.. start fixing the game..
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2009.08.11 19:36:00 - [89] I just dont belive how many threads are about this. Concord bilboards at the gates should have a big advertisment : SALVAGE DOESNT BELONG TO YOU. IT ALL WORKS AS INTENTED.
Chronospin Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.08.11 19:43:00 - [90] Edited by: Chronospin on 11/08/2009 19:45:01 Cry more babe, cry more lol awesome. A little story from deep space, were some ppl are clueless about some basic rules like "if u shoot at someone in empire u will be concordoken". Yesterday night, i was salvaging in a field of mission runers, when one of them had the good idea to tring pop my firetail (ofc he didnt went half shield, poor nooblet) >> ganked by concord. The hilarious thing in it is, in the same pocket, with the same players, a guy went in thorax to pop me and, again, he was concordokened. LMAO awesome dudes. OFC FOR THE OCCASION I SALVAGED THEM. HOPE NOW THEY WILL UNDERSTAND THAT MR TEARS ARE ALWAYS WELCOME TO LUBE MY SALVAGE MODULES !!
stankpod	Posted - 2009.08.11 20:30:00 - [91] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: I could say the same for you. the difference is that I don't ***** on the forums when something happens that could possibly reduce my profit. Thats because nothing could possibly reduce your profits, well maybe if another bottomfeeder goes to the same mission.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.08.11 20:41:00 - [92] Edited by: Tippia on 11/08/2009 20:40:55 Originally by: stankpod Thats because nothing could possibly reduce your profits, well maybe if another bottomfeeder goes to the same mission. This is, of course, completely incorrect, but the perception is common since many mission runners seem to be pretty stupid and not very familiar with the game. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
stankpod	Posted - 2009.08.11 21:30:00 - [93] yes dear
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.11 21:57:00 - [94] Originally by: stankpod Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: I could say the same for you. the difference is that I don't ***** on the forums when something happens that could possibly reduce my profit. Thats because nothing could possibly reduce your profits, well maybe if another bottomfeeder goes to the same mission. MRs blowing up wrecks reduce profits, but you don't see us QQ about it. We just keep our chin up and carry on while the MR has a cow.
Lunarmist	Posted - 2009.08.12 02:11:00 - [95] Here is a simple solution. Get one repairer drone in your drone bay. when some one comes into your mission uninvited to ninja salvage your stuff, you just fly right next to the said ship, wait till all the npc ships are close, then let out your repair drone. Target the ninja ship and let your drone repair that ship a few cycles then warp out. This will make npc ships start to attack that ninja ship. Since npc ships are close and ninja ships are usually not tanked to handle the npc ships, that guy will most likely killed or have to warp out. I've killed a few of them this way. pretty funny honestly.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.12 03:10:00 - [96] Oh god. PLEASE do this to me.
Gavin DeVries	Posted - 2009.08.12 04:36:00 - [97] Originally by: Lunarmist Here is a simple solution. Get one repairer drone in your drone bay. when some one comes into your mission uninvited to ninja salvage your stuff, you just fly right next to the said ship, wait till all the npc ships are close, then let out your repair drone. Target the ninja ship and let your drone repair that ship a few cycles then warp out. This will make npc ships start to attack that ninja ship. Since npc ships are close and ninja ships are usually not tanked to handle the npc ships, that guy will most likely killed or have to warp out. I've killed a few of them this way. pretty funny honestly. BAD idea! The on-the-ball ninja will immediately shoot you. Concord will arrive and blow him up for unlawful aggression. Since you're repairing (via drone) an unlawful aggressor, they will also blow you up. Ninja loses a frigate and salvagers, maybe at worst an interceptor with salvage tackle rigs (soon to be much cheaper for them as they'll be small rigs). You'll lose a mission ship. Which is worth more? ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.12 05:32:00 - [98] Here is a simple solution: quit crying like a little *** over the loss of a fraction of the pretend space money, buck up like a man, and move on. Or conversely, you can continue to cry like a little *** and supply the tears needed to fly my ship.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.12 13:58:00 - [99] Edited by: Jarvis Hellstrom on 12/08/2009 14:02:02 Originally by: Mistress Evita Blow their dang ship up if they are in an NPC corp or war dec em if they are not. Stand on your own two feet and stop yelling for Mommy CCP to come help you cause the big bad meany ninja salvager is picking on you. Yawn The thing is - the plague is beginning to spread beyond the hubs now. I've never run a mission in a hub either and I've only been invaded once. I blew up the wrecks on him but he persisted (he was in an NPC corp so wardec wasn't an option) so I went back to station to fit a suicide gank ship and he was gone by the time I'd finished. The 'whine' isn't to 'stop' them. Just to let us shoot them. At least from my perspective. In fairness and balance I think that tractors should work for them too (a tractor beam shouldn't care who owns what - it's a tractor beam not an ownership checking beam) and I've no problem with wrecks becoming more easily scannable or with them becoming unowned for the last hour of their existence. All these things would keep salvaging alive as a mini-profession. I just have an issue with them doing it when I'm around and having no real recourse short of a suicide gank which can be hard on the sec status, not to mention the wallet as their griefboats are pretty much not worth blowing up. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.08.12 14:38:00 - [100] Edited by: Traidor Disloyal on 12/08/2009 14:40:40 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom The 'whine' isn't to 'stop' them. Just to let us shoot them. At least from my perspective. In fairness and balance I think that tractors should work for them too (a tractor beam shouldn't care who owns what - it's a tractor beam not an ownership checking beam) and I've no problem with wrecks becoming more easily scannable or with them becoming unowned for the last hour of their existence. All these things would keep salvaging alive as a mini-profession. I just have an issue with them doing it when I'm around and having no real recourse short of a suicide gank which can be hard on the sec status, not to mention the wallet as their griefboats are pretty much not worth blowing up. I agree. Ninja salvagers should go blinky red has soon has they salvage a mission wreak. Mission runners should be able to shoot at the friggen ninja salvagers. This would make the people in my corp happy. Sometimes the people in my corp complain that there is no loot to steal and thus can not get the mission runner to pop one off at em. I see death and destruction for a few months if this is ever implemented. After that mission runners will act the same way that miners do when people come in to flip a can. Do nothing, nothing at all. I take it back. Mission runners will do something. Run to the forums and cry to CCP how it is unfair that ninja salvagers can come into their missions and salvage their wreaks. Kind of like what they are doing now. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.12 15:47:00 - [101] Originally by: Traidor Disloyal I agree. <snip> I see death and destruction for a few months if this is ever implemented. After that mission runners will act the same way that miners do when people come in to flip a can. Do nothing, nothing at all. Yawn That straw man argument again? You want aggro? Just pick up a single crappy piece of ammo. This option is there. The fact that it is not the standard behaviour of ninjas means that this 'death and destruction' talk is just that. Talk. If that would 'make your corp happy' then just pick up some ammo or a crappy T1 module off even one of the wrecks you salvage. There you go - you've got what you want. You can have it right now but you don't do it. Therefore, empty threat. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.12 15:52:00 - [102] Quote: This would make the people in my corp happy. and the ability to shoot freighters coming out of Jita 4/4 would make me happy. Sadly, CCP isn't going to criminally flag people just because you want to shoot at something. If you want to shoot at people who enter your mission, go to lowsec.
Zoe Adelita	Posted - 2009.08.12 16:01:00 - [103] Whaaaaaaaa! Whaaaaaa... ! Butch up sister and take responsibility for your own New Eden experience. Don't like your salvage being taken, do something about it.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.12 16:50:00 - [104] The whine factor has really bumped up during the last page. Those evil bastards must really get under your skin salvaging the profit of those 8 wrecks that you can more than make up in another mission. Originally by: Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
stankpod	Posted - 2009.08.12 17:04:00 - [105] Originally by: g0ggalor Here is a simple solution: quit crying like a little *** over the loss of a fraction of the pretend space money, buck up like a man, and move on. Or conversely, you can continue to cry like a little *** and supply the tears needed to fly my ship. please come up with a new line, what is it in the ninja handbook... train for 3 days say tears every other word and boom your a ninja? Tears make my ship run? you sound like someone who has to stay 1001 feet away from grade schools.
Borun Tal Minmatar Virtual Rock Industries	Posted - 2009.08.12 17:34:00 - [106] As stated before, you have options: 1)get the hell out of the mission hubs and you probably will never see one; 2) destroy the wrecks; 3) salvage as you go; and 4) stfu and get over it. Gawd, I'm getting sick of seeing this come up time and again. Quit yer whining...
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.12 18:05:00 - [107] Originally by: Borun Tal Gawd, I'm getting sick of seeing this come up time and again. Me too actually. Ever wonder WHY it comes up so much? I'll let you in on the secret- because the current mechanic is extremely counterintuitive and only makes sense to those who either: a) Abuse it for benefit or b) Have been around so long that the original explanations actually make sense to them still even though they've long ceased to be relevant. In other words, until the mechanic changes in some way, expect to see these threads ad nauseum. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.12 19:30:00 - [108] Originally by: stankpod Originally by: g0ggalor Here is a simple solution: quit crying like a little *** over the loss of a fraction of the pretend space money, buck up like a man, and move on. Or conversely, you can continue to cry like a little * and supply the tears needed to fly my ship. please come up with a new line, what is it in the ninja handbook... train for 3 days say tears every other word and boom your a ninja? Tears make my ship run? you sound like someone who has to stay 1001 feet away from grade schools. Yet you still cry like a *, and when cry to me in game (or even in local) it is funny and makes me want to ninja more. Originally by:** Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Borun Tal Gawd, I'm getting sick of seeing this come up time and again. Me too actually. Ever wonder WHY it comes up so much? I'll let you in on the secret- because the current mechanic is extremely counterintuitive and only makes sense to those who either: a) Abuse it for benefit or b) Have been around so long that the original explanations actually make sense to them still even though they've long ceased to be relevant. In other words, until the mechanic changes in some way, expect to see these threads ad nauseum. How is it counter intuitive. If someone steals what actually is considered yours, they turn flashy red. If they take what is not yours, they don't turn flashy red. How intuitive do you need it to be?
Karentaki Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.08.12 19:45:00 - [109] Well done on making a nice original thread... http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1143161 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1140081 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1128088 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1136730 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1120748 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1116980 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115347 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115497 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1092372 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115121 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115359 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1114874 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115387 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1092372 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1138530 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1067174 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1122548 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1113790 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1109936 ... oh wait. Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
Gavin DeVries	Posted - 2009.08.12 19:49:00 - [110] Originally by: g0ggalor How is it counter intuitive. If someone steals what actually is considered yours, they turn flashy red. If they take what is not yours, they don't turn flashy red. How intuitive do you need it to be? The only thing I'd say is counterintuitive would be the difference in how "ownership" is granted. I blow up a pirate ship. According to CONCORD (based on their response) I "own" the loot in the wreck, but I don't "own" the salvage in the wreck. If someone takes loot from the wreck, and I shoot them, CONCORD stays out of it. If someone salvages from the wreck, and I shoot them, CONCORD blows up my ship. That's the only thing I can see that isn't straight-forward. ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.12 19:57:00 - [111] Originally by: Gavin DeVries Originally by: g0ggalor How is it counter intuitive. If someone steals what actually is considered yours, they turn flashy red. If they take what is not yours, they don't turn flashy red. How intuitive do you need it to be? The only thing I'd say is counterintuitive would be the difference in how "ownership" is granted. I blow up a pirate ship. According to CONCORD (based on their response) I "own" the loot in the wreck, but I don't "own" the salvage in the wreck. If someone takes loot from the wreck, and I shoot them, CONCORD stays out of it. If someone salvages from the wreck, and I shoot them, CONCORD blows up my ship. That's the only thing I can see that isn't straight-forward. And yet the issue is so big with MRs that it is well known that the game considers loot MR property, and salvage whoever gets there first. I would also agree with the idea that if salvage is made MR property, then ninjas will simply steal both loot and salvage because no MR with a decent ship will risk losing it by shooting a looter. It will be just like can flippers, but with billion dollar ships instead of lowly mining frigs.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.12 20:11:00 - [112] Originally by: g0ggalor How is it counter intuitive. If someone steals what actually is considered yours, they turn flashy red. If they take what is not yours, they don't turn flashy red. How intuitive do you need it to be? Do you actually understand the word 'counterintuitive'? coun+ter+in+tu+i+tive (kountr-n-t-tv, -ty-) adj. Contrary to what intuition or common sense would indicate Basically - to someone looking at the situation without CCP's 'definition' or past history, salvage being open to anyone makes no sense. To wit: 1) The wreck shows as being allocated to the person who destroyed it (their photo on show info etc.) 2) No one but the person above can tractor beam the wreck and the text that pops up if others try state that it isn't 'yours' to tractor 3) The stuff 'in' the wreck is yours. It has value. If someone takes it they're stealing. 4) The wreck was 'created' by the mission runner. Unlike asteroids etc. (a common ninja argument) it wasn't created by the world but by direct action of a player (ie - a mission runner accepting a mission) 5) The destroyed wreck is only a wreck through the agency of the mission runner expending resources (ammo etc.) to destroy the rat and create the wreck 6) There is the argument that salvage is 'space junk' but this argument makes no sense to the average mission runner either as 'junk' is something without value, or with very low value and salvage components are high value items - usually higher value than the player owned 'loot' particularly in lower level missions. 7) There is no real sense to the 'This gun off this wreck is loot - but this damaged console off this wreck is salvage and has different ownership'. They're both bits of an ex-ship. To a mission runner who hasn't dug through the forums and read a zillion ninja salvage arguments, he sees the salvage as his for all the above reasons and probably a few more. Once he reads the zillion salvage arguments (back and forth) he probably understands WHAT CCP's stated position is and why things work they way they do. But if he's anything like me he hasn't a hot clue as to what kind of sense that makes to the devs. I've been involved in a lot of these 'discussions' and the entire position makes zero sense to me. Ninja 'explanations' as to the logic of it are either circular (It's because it's what CCP wanted) or just stupid (It's 'junk' so has no ownership because no one owns 'junk'. Really? 14 million ISK 'junk'? But that T1 Ladar set over there worth 4200 ISK is 'valuable property' and not 'junk'. What was Concord smoking again because I want some!) So, yes, it is entirely counterintuitive. In fact, even after analysis it makes no bloody sense at all! May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.08.12 20:20:00 - [113] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Yawn Your jaw must hurt cause you Yawn a lot. I hope you get what you want. I really do. I want to see the crying on the forums when this happens. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.12 20:21:00 - [114] Originally by: g0ggalor I would also agree with the idea that if salvage is made MR property, then ninjas will simply steal both loot and salvage because no MR with a decent ship will risk losing it by shooting a looter. It will be just like can flippers, but with billion dollar ships instead of lowly mining frigs. That argument's been made before and is spurious. Were it advantageous to do so, the ninjas would just take loot now etc. etc. The vast majority of them do not and, in fact, do their level best NOT to take any loot. Were it a desireable action, it would already be occurring. The reality is that can flippers don't generally fly very good ships (I've seen the rare exception) and target unarmed ships. Ninjas stealing are targeting armed ships which are more likely to respond violently, resulting in the loss of the ninja's griefboat. While some may then use the aggro to come back and attack the MR in a PvP fit ship that would be the exception rather than the rule or it would be happening right now. Because, of course, if the salvage ship pops and the pod warps off, the mission runner is perfectly capable of warping off and getting a PvP ship of their own. Oh, and a look at Suddenly Ninjas Killboard will show that they lose 2-3 ships for every ship they manage to kill. We are not talking about strong PvP types here. Remember, salvaging is a money MAKING venture. PvP is a money LOSING venture. Hence the reason things are as they are. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.12 20:23:00 - [115] Originally by: Traidor Disloyal Your jaw must hurt cause you Yawn a lot. I hope you get what you want. I really do. I want to see the crying on the forums when this happens. I yawn a lot because I'm tired of the same entirely spurious arguments over and over and over. They're dull and make me sleepy. And I'm glad we agree. As to whether it causes forum whining or not, I expect that it will but not from the Mission Runner crowd. Only one way to find out though. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Salliene Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.12 20:30:00 - [116] I have come to agree with the mission runners. Salvaging a wreck that they made is totally wrong, I get that now. As part of turning over a new leaf I will now devote my life to assisting mission runners. I will come into their missions and destroy as many ships as possible for them. I know that because of the screwed up game mechanics that this will mean that I will most likely get the bounties that the mission runner would have gotten, but since I am saving them time I am sure they won't mind my assistance.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.12 20:36:00 - [117] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom That argument's been made before and is spurious. Were it advantageous to do so, the ninjas would just take loot now etc. etc. Many ninja's do take loot now. In fact I believe that SN specialize in this. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom The vast majority of them do not and, in fact, do their level best NOT to take any loot. Were it a desireable action, it would already be occurring. Just because you've seen a few not take loot does not mean the 'vast majority' are like that. Its like the ninja's saying how the 'vast majority' of MR's are carebears (although really they are). You keep claiming that MR's are these awesome groups not to be trifled with but the ones that I DO take the loot from either just target me and sit there or leave and never come back. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom The reality is that can flippers don't generally fly very good ships (I've seen the rare exception) and target unarmed ships. Ninjas stealing are targeting armed ships which are more likely to respond violently, resulting in the loss of the ninja's griefboat. While some may then use the aggro to come back and attack the MR in a PvP fit ship that would be the exception rather than the rule or it would be happening right now. Because, of course, if the salvage ship pops and the pod warps off, the mission runner is perfectly capable of warping off and getting a PvP ship of their own. Sadly many of the common mission runners believe their faction fit CNR's can handle a pvp fight because it handle well in a mission. Or in many other cases they simply refit a scram on it and think its pvp ready and its just not the case. I know you keep claiming that many MR's are alts of these big 0.0 uber fighters but many of them really are not, especially in the major hubs. Like Miners there are many who enjoy solely the mission running aspect of the game and are content with just doing mission after mission. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Remember, Mission Running is a money MAKING venture. PvP is a money LOSING venture. Hence the reason things are as they are. Fix'd Originally by: Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
El Liptonez	Posted - 2009.08.12 20:38:00 - [118] Originally by: Karentaki Well done on making a nice original thread... http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1143161 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1140081 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1128088 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1136730 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1120748 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1116980 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115347 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115497 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1092372 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115121 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115359 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1114874 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1115387 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1092372 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1138530 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1067174 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1122548 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1113790 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1109936 ... oh wait. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1145299
Borun Tal Minmatar Virtual Rock Industries	Posted - 2009.08.12 20:45:00 - [119] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Borun Tal Gawd, I'm getting sick of seeing this come up time and again. Me too actually. Ever wonder WHY it comes up so much? I'll let you in on the secret- because the current mechanic is extremely counterintuitive and only makes sense to those who either: a) Abuse it for benefit or b) Have been around so long that the original explanations actually make sense to them still even though they've long ceased to be relevant. In other words, until the mechanic changes in some way, expect to see these threads ad nauseum. Non-sense. I haven't been around very long, and I don't steal LOOT from other people, but the mechanic makes perfect sense to me. I have no problem with it at all. I posted four options above that apparently aren't good enough for some. How about one crystal clear rationalization: cuz CCP says that's the rules. Don't like it? You know where WoW is.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.12 21:00:00 - [120] Originally by: Borun Tal Non-sense. I haven't been around very long, <snip> I posted four options above that apparently aren't good enough for some. How about one crystal clear rationalization: cuz CCP says that's the rules. Don't like it? You know where WoW is. Ah - you haven't 'been around very long' but already you know the whole history, eh? Wait around for a bit and you'll see. These threads pop up quite religiously. They're nearly always started by some mission runner who has no idea why ninjas can do what they do. See the counterintuitive discussion above. And they will continue to do so until the rules are made more intuitive. And, just to let you in on a little non-secret that we who have been around for awhile already know - just because CCP set something up doesn't mean it will stay that way. POS warfare is about to change. FW didn't exist when I started and neither did epic arcs. Vagabonds used to be unbeatable and broke the physics engine etc. etc. Lots of things change in EVE and many of those changes are due to player feedback. And please don't be either dull or silly. I've never played WoW, and likely never will. It interests me slightly less than having a root canal does. The only MMORPG I've ever even considered is EVE Online and I don't see that changing anytime soon. When you've been around a couple of years, come talk to me, until then stop cluttering up the thread with meaningless commentary. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
stankpod	Posted - 2009.08.12 21:09:00 - [121] How can I put this in a nice way Borun Tal... your options suck. And if your sick of seeing this Issue dont read it. Instead you post 10 times in this thread proclaiming you never cry. When in fact your crying about crying.
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2009.08.12 21:21:00 - [122] I can't see why people deem this thread or Mr. stanktroll worthy a reply. Flogging the dead horse isn't fitting anymore. I still vote for a sticky with Dev replies on the topic and permaban for anyone raising the topic again, ever .
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.12 21:27:00 - [123] Originally by: THE L0CK Many ninja's do take loot now. In fact I believe that SN specialize in this.Just because you've seen a few not take loot does not mean the 'vast majority' are like that. I know that some of them make a lot of noise about it but as the complaints around here are universally 'I want to shoot them and I can't' it doesn't seem too likely. Quote: Its like the ninja's saying how the 'vast majority' of MR's are carebears (although really they are). You keep claiming that MR's are these awesome groups not to be trifled with but the ones that I DO take the loot from either just target me and sit there or leave and never come back. Admittedly the only ones truly able to run those calculations are CCP themselves. Perhaps it's best to say that the vast majority of complaints about ninjas (indeed, I think EVERY one that I've ever posted in) have been that salvage was being taken with no recourse available to the MR short of a wardec and, if the ninja is in an NPC corp not that either. It's interesting also that SN is now an 'Alliance' even though nearly all the members of that alliance are in SN (about 20 of their 140 members are not in the SN corp). Being an alliance makes them much more expensive to wardec for a newer corp. I asked them about this and they never once gave me any reason for it so it certainly looks like they're now hiding from wardecs when they used to publicly claim that they welcomed them. I've never particularly claimed that MR are awesome or anything of the sort so please don't put words in my mouth. Just that many of them are perfectly capable of fighting back. Again, have a look at the SN killboard for proof of that. The only times I've encountered ninjas they never touched a thing and I can absolutely guarantee you that if they had they'd have died instantly or warped out in hull. If they'd hung around I've have suicided them. Or at least made the attempt - I don't like suicide ganking and have never actually tried it but I do keep a fitted ship or two around for it expressly for ninjas. For a salvage ninja, I'll suicide gank. About the only real exception I can think of. Wardecs aren't up to me, as I'm not a Tigers Director. And you're right of course, a great many MR are true carebears who are just folks playing the PVE portion of the game. But we all know that a LOT of them are money makers for PvP alts. From where I sit all ninjas who don't loot are carebears too - even worse than the MR as they aren't even risking the rats. Quote: Sadly many of the common mission runners believe their faction fit CNR's can handle a pvp fight because it handle well in a mission. Or in many other cases they simply refit a scram on it and think its pvp ready and its just not the case. Indeed. The disparity of PvP vs. PvE fits is a real problem in EVE Online. I really hope they fix that. Quote: I know you keep claiming that many MR's are alts of these big 0.0 uber fighters but many of them really are not, especially in the major hubs. Like Miners there are many who enjoy solely the mission running aspect of the game and are content with just doing mission after mission. It's well known that many MRs are 0.0 Alliance alts but I expect that you are right in that not many of them mission in hubs. Those alts exist to generate ISK and not be distracted by ninjas. However many also claim that they never both with loot and salvage so perhaps those are just the ones that blithely ignore you and yours. Quote: Fix'd Neither quote is inaccurate and we both know it. Thanks for being more respectful and rational than most of the pro-ninja types around here though. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Dartago Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.08.13 00:32:00 - [124] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom I know that some of them make a lot of noise about it but as the complaints around here are universally 'I want to shoot them and I can't' it doesn't seem too likely. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom The only times I've encountered ninjas they never touched a thing and I can absolutely guarantee you that if they had they'd have died instantly or warped out in hull. I most say that i find this to be very funny. See i specialize in killing mission ships i couldn't careless about the salvage what so ever i have probably made 15b killing mission runners( and i haven't even done this with any regularity). What i want to say is that over the years i have never ever lost a ship to a mission runner only times my ship have been at risk was in Recon 3/3 a perfectly skilled CNR with cruise missiles takes anywhere from 4-5 volleys to just kill the shield on my ninja ship more than sufficient time to leave unless im afk i guess :P A lvl4 mission ship just is no threat at all to a salvage frigg simple as that. So yes please make it so we get flagged on salvaging it worked so well with loot and will make the time needed to aggress mission runners so much shorter.
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.13 01:46:00 - [125] Edited by: g0ggalor on 13/08/2009 01:46:23 Originally by: baron tal As stated before, you have options: 1)get the hell out of the mission hubs and you probably will never see one; 2) destroy the wrecks; 3) salvage as you go; and 4) stfu and get over it. Originally by: failpod How can I put this in a nice way Borun Tal... your options suck. Actually they are all decent, although #2 is kinda lame. 1) Maybe you fail at finding a decent agent, but there are tons of good agent out there in lag free systems. They don't have to be far from a trade hub either. 2) like I said, an ok solution if the MR wants to ensure the ninja doesn't get any salvage, but more often then not the ninja will just stick around and force the MR to blow up all the wrecks. MR spends unneeded ammo and loses out on loot they may have gotten, so this is really lame imo. 3) Works with a marauder or a friend, or if you have a long mission like AE and want to ensure you get the salvage, you can do the first 3 rooms and salvage those, then finish the mission and salvage again. 4) Best option hands down. Ninjas don't come into missions all that often. In all the time I've run L4s in Motsu, I only had 3 ninja encounters. Instead of throwing a fit, just ignore the ninja, do your mission, and move on to the next.
Kratznotzt	Posted - 2009.08.13 04:40:00 - [126] I can't say that the salvage ninjas make me happy. I actually hate and fear them, to be honest. But they give a buzz, like when you suddenly notice that there are six crimson red ships waiting for you on the other side of a star gate. You lose a lot of isk and get that "Damn it!" feeling when you suddenly see a few ninjas entering your mission. It's good to have them since they add a feeling of paranoia to PvE. I've found myself going through the local channel pilot lists many times to see if any of the known ninjas are present before I start my missions and actually getting a good feeling when I can conclude that no ninjas are present. Or are there? Maybe not as exciting as meeting pirates, but not as expensive either. If only the hype would be over so that there wouldn't be this many ninjas around...
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.13 06:23:00 - [127] Originally by: Kratznotzt I can't say that the salvage ninjas make me happy. I actually hate and fear them, to be honest. But they give a buzz, like when you suddenly notice that there are six crimson red ships waiting for you on the other side of a star gate. You lose a lot of isk and get that "Damn it!" feeling when you suddenly see a few ninjas entering your mission. It's good to have them since they add a feeling of paranoia to PvE. I've found myself going through the local channel pilot lists many times to see if any of the known ninjas are present before I start my missions and actually getting a good feeling when I can conclude that no ninjas are present. Or are there? Maybe not as exciting as meeting pirates, but not as expensive either. If only the hype would be over so that there wouldn't be this many ninjas around... this is bull****. Everyone knows that player interaction in a multiplayer game just makes the game less fun. there should be as little of that as possible.
DonDrakos	Posted - 2009.08.13 12:35:00 - [128] Edited by: DonDrakos on 13/08/2009 12:38:00 Originally by: Kahega Amielden this is bull**. Everyone knows that player interaction in a multiplayer game just makes the game less fun. there should be as little of that as possible. Word ! EVE brags about hes adult player base ! Bull ! Anonymity creates a lot **s ! No better than the 12yrs old playing wow. At least your expectation of him are low. Still ... best way to avoid filling the pockets of the lazzy is to salvage as u kill. God knows (for me at least) takes forever to kill a BS alone. Oh well !:) Plenty of time to salvage wrecks one by one.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.13 15:27:00 - [129] Originally by: Dartago A lvl4 mission ship just is no threat at all to a salvage frigg simple as that. So yes please make it so we get flagged on salvaging it worked so well with loot and will make the time needed to aggress mission runners so much shorter. Not everyone missions in CNRs and a full wing of 5 T2 light drones will probably kill you in a single pass. Maybe two. It's possible you might have a truly mighty tank and get away. Nothing is ever guaranteed, naturally. Of course, if a change like this were implemented I'd also be fitting a long range point on my ships - just to be sure. Gallente ships aren't usually that desperate for mid slots. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Zircon Dasher	Posted - 2009.08.13 17:18:00 - [130] Edited by: Zircon Dasher on 13/08/2009 17:21:07 I dont see what the big deal is personally. I have had people come into my L4's to salvage and loot on several occasions. It does not make me angry in the slightest so I am not sure why others do get angry tbh. I guess if i was losing more money than I was making during PvP (which btw i dont pvp) and had to use missions to make some of it up i would be mad. But that anger would probably spur me to be better at pvp not ask for changes in the current mission running system. In all honesty I think I would rely on my trader alt for the money though, as it seems to already be keeping pace/outpacing my mission running income. The fact is though that i run mission because I like running missions in and of themselves and i make way more money than i need for this purpose. If i played video games just to see how much money i could accrue,I think i would just go play Railroad Tycoon instead. I dont see a need for a change
Necavisset	Posted - 2009.08.13 20:42:00 - [131] http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1147386 The above link leads to a thread started by a band of like-minded individuals who wish to eradicate this threat to the hard-working people of EVE once and for all.
Barlic Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.13 22:02:00 - [132] I support the above link. Please give us as much isk as you can.
Mel Lifera	Posted - 2009.08.14 10:35:00 - [133] Edited by: Mel Lifera on 14/08/2009 10:36:05 Edited by: Mel Lifera on 14/08/2009 10:35:43 To MR's who use 250-million-isk Megathrons with 20mil in T2 fittings to kill fleets of NPC battleships with 500k-plus bounties a piece and who-knows-how-big a mission reward, and yet insist that a salvager coming in and snatching 2-3 mil worth of salvage is "taking money out of my wallet", or even "ruining the game" for them, all I can say is, "Perspective: find it." Talking about ISK per hour? You can spend a half hour going back to your mission wreck fields for that 2 mil, or you can go do another mission in the same amount of time.
Dex Allen Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.14 11:54:00 - [134] the solution is so easy: Just give 10 mil Isk to every ninja entering your mission and you won't have a problem.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.14 15:02:00 - [135] Edited by: Jarvis Hellstrom on 14/08/2009 15:04:52 Wow - do some research. The person you describe below does not exist. Originally by: Mel Lifera To MR's who use 250-million-isk Megathrons with 20mil in T2 fittings Megathrons do not cost 200m. Not unless you are REALLY not trying to not be a fool with the market. The fittings for a well fit Mega are usually more than 20 million. Also, Megas are not common mission running ships (you're wanting CNRs or Dominixes for that) Quote: to kill fleets of NPC battleships with 500k-plus bounties a piece and who-knows-how-big a mission reward, Bounties for Empire rats only rarely get that high. We're not talking 0.0 stuff here. Mission rewards for an L4 tend to be around 2-3 million ISK. Quote: and yet insist that a salvager coming in and snatching 2-3 mil worth of salvage is "taking money out of my wallet", or even "ruining the game" for them, all I can say is, "Perspective: find it." Talking about ISK per hour? You can spend a half hour going back to your mission wreck fields for that 2 mil, or you can go do another mission in the same amount of time. What a fail troll post. L4s usually run you (for the average rather than hyper-optimized mission runner) about 20 million ISK and take more than an hour to do. That's loot, salvage, LP, Bounties, Mission pay, the lot. Of that, in most missions, salvage runs between 25-50% of the take. For lower level missions, it's much more. I once helped a new character with an L1 World's Collide that he just couldn't get through (he'd drawn it while still in an Ibis). I tanked for him in an AF and contributed just enough DPS to help break the boss' tank so he could finish. I then salvaged the mission when we were done and sent him half the salvage sale profit. The total salvage from the L1 World's Collide was FOURTEEN TIMES the total value of the bounties, loot, LP stuff etc. etc. It's not some measely little percentage as you try and claim (without bothering to do a whit of research, clearly - you're just making numbers up). Were the numbers as you say - no one would complain. Or at least very few would. There are ninjas out there who claim to make 20-30 million ISK per hour in salvage (check the forums - it's in there, someone from Suddenly IIRC). That's as much as a mission runner makes and he's doing it in a ship that he pays for completely SIXTY to EIGHTY times during that hour with no costs for ammo or other expendables. The Mission Runner managing the same amount, who would have to be pretty optimized in order to make the high end of that uses ammo and a ship that costs him or her seven to eight times that income or about 560 times what the ninja ship costs and he or she takes more risks. That's why salvaging is broken as it currently functions. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Mel Lifera	Posted - 2009.08.14 15:18:00 - [136] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom It's not some measely little percentage as you try and claim (without bothering to do a whit of research, clearly - you're just making numbers up). Were the numbers as you say - no one would complain. Or at least very few would. There are ninjas out there who claim to make 20-30 million ISK per hour in salvage (check the forums - it's in there, someone from Suddenly IIRC). That's as much as a mission runner makes and he's doing it in a ship that he pays for completely SIXTY to EIGHTY times during that hour with no costs for ammo or other expendables. The Mission Runner managing the same amount, who would have to be pretty optimized in order to make the high end of that uses ammo and a ship that costs him or her seven to eight times that income or about 560 times what the ninja ship costs and he or she takes more risks. That's why salvaging is broken as it currently functions. Hey, that was pretty quick - and there is my response to the "I make more money than you by actually running the missions" argument.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.14 15:45:00 - [137] Originally by: Mel Lifera Hey, that was pretty quick Waiting on a boring autobatch to run at work and can't continue until it's done. Quote: - and there is my response to the "I make more money than you by actually running the missions" argument. You realize that made absolutely zero sense, right?
Galmarr Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.14 16:17:00 - [138] Jarvis, Jarvis, Jarvis. Don't you know, your the reason we do this. Your the sqeaky/crying wheel/baby and we are giving you grease/grief. Please keep crying, It gives us more publicity. Our membership is jumping by the day. Lets give Jarvis a big round of applause. Thank you Jarvis.
Mel Lifera	Posted - 2009.08.14 16:35:00 - [139] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom You realize that made absolutely zero sense, right? Of course it made sense - let me help you out. Carebears can't help but be contrary to just about anything ninjas say. It's like a Pavlovian kind of thing - a dozen ninjahate threads demonstrate it rather well. And one of the principal whines is that "oh lol whatever, u would maek more isk running yr own missions so you fail at EVE". Ninjas have consistently been pointing out the inaccuracy of this, but of course we're wrong because we're ninjas, so they have to disagree. And now we know that they will disagree with ninjas even when it means contradicting other carebears.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.14 16:45:00 - [140] Quote: Megathrons do not cost 200m. Not unless you are REALLY not trying to not be a fool with the market. The fittings for a well fit Mega are usually more than 20 million. Also, Megas are not common mission running ships (you're wanting CNRs or Dominixes for that) Navy megas do (and are more common than you'd think) Quote: Bounties for Empire rats only rarely get that high. We're not talking 0.0 stuff here. Mission rewards for an L4 tend to be around 2-3 million ISK. Not rarely. Most BS rats range from 400-500K, with a few being 300K Quote: L4s usually run you (for the average rather than hyper-optimized mission runner) about 20 million ISK and take more than an hour to do. That's loot, salvage, LP, Bounties, Mission pay, the lot. Then you suck at it, because everyone who has objectively tested mission payout has found that with a decent ship and good skills, most L4s can be done in WELL under an hour. Quote: It's not some measely little percentage as you try and claim (without bothering to do a whit of research, clearly - you're just making numbers up). Were the numbers as you say - no one would complain. Or at least very few would. Given that salvage is not a mission reward that you are entitled to, I don't exactly get how you can ***. Quote:** There are ninjas out there who claim to make 20-30 million ISK per hour in salvage (check the forums - it's in there, someone from Suddenly IIRC). That's as much as a mission runner makes and he's doing it in a ship that he pays for completely SIXTY to EIGHTY times during that hour with no costs for ammo or other expendables. The Mission Runner managing the same amount, who would have to be pretty optimized in order to make the high end of that uses ammo and a ship that costs him or her seven to eight times that income or about 560 times what the ninja ship costs and he or she takes more risks. A good missionrunner makes considerably more than that (someone who knows how to value LPs and uses a halfway decent ship). Also, it was probably me who talked about getting 20 million ISK/hour..that only happens when you a) are in Amarr or Minmatar space (since Guristas/Serpentis salvage blows) and b) when you loot as well (I'd say almost half of my income comes from loot)-salvaging alone isn't -that- profitable.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.14 17:10:00 - [141] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Wow - do some research. The person you describe below does not exist. Megathrons do not cost 200m. Not unless you are REALLY not trying to not be a fool with the market. The fittings for a well fit Mega are usually more than 20 million. Also, Megas are not common mission running ships (you're wanting CNRs or Dominixes for that) He probably meant a navythron. And yes fittings can really range up into several million. Also for the record I feel that anything raven shaped or the Domi are for nubs who run in neutral. I used to mission run in ravens and drakes but got bored out of my mind. Now my mission character flies anything and everything T1 just to break the monotony. Quote: to kill fleets of NPC battleships with 500k-plus bounties a piece and who-knows-how-big a mission reward, Bounties for Empire rats only rarely get that high. We're not talking 0.0 stuff here. Mission rewards for an L4 tend to be around 2-3 million ISK. BS's easily range from 400K to 800K with named characters being 1.2mil to 1.5 mil on the bounty. Several missions easily field a dozen battleships and we're not even getting into the cruisers, BC's, and Frigs. Quote: Talking about perspective What a fail troll post. L4s usually run you (for the average rather than hyper-optimized mission runner) about 20 million ISK and take more than an hour to do. That's loot, salvage, LP, Bounties, Mission pay, the lot. ONLY for the big missions do that. Duo of death have better not run you an hour. The recons? If you don't care about the loot your talking ten minutes for all 3. The drone missions are maybe 20 minutes tops. Silence the informer is about a half hour and so is damsel (if that). And your hyper optimized player would either salvage on the go with his ship or have a dedicated salvager cleaning up the previous room or mission. I should know, that's what I use my ninja for every now n then. <Huge paragraphs on salvaging> Yeah that salvage may be profit except that the majority of pilots just click sell and ok. Its really stupid. You see, my ninja salvaging is 2 fold. I salvage the wrecks for those components to make rigs. I steal the loot to melt it all down for minerals. Whatever rig parts I come short on I do a buy order for 20% of what its really worth and my order fills up with no issue. I then turn around and make ammo and rigs (namely CCC's) and sell them back to the very people I steal from. My point is that they a good majority of them don't even bother with the market game so your use of profit really can't apply. All they know is that big guns and L smart bombs mean big money along with certain armors/shield. The rest is scrap that you melt down and turn into a quick profit via minerals (where again they don't even play the market game.) Again though that does not mean everybody. The few smart ones out there haul that ** to Jita and make a really nice profit, but then it's not really the MR game they are playing but the Market game now. That's why salvaging is broken as it currently functions. As a fact its not with viable proof from the dev's. As your personal opinion it is, although many do not share that opinion. Originally by:** Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
Alakith	Posted - 2009.08.14 17:14:00 - [142] Originally by: Chronospin Edited by: Chronospin on 11/08/2009 19:45:01 Cry more babe, cry more lol awesome. A little story from deep space, were some ppl are clueless about some basic rules like "if u shoot at someone in empire u will be concordoken". Yesterday night, i was salvaging in a field of mission runers, when one of them had the good idea to tring pop my firetail (ofc he didnt went half shield, poor nooblet) >> ganked by concord. The hilarious thing in it is, in the same pocket, with the same players, a guy went in thorax to pop me and, again, he was concordokened. LMAO awesome dudes. OFC FOR THE OCCASION I SALVAGED THEM. HOPE NOW THEY WILL UNDERSTAND THAT MR TEARS ARE ALWAYS WELCOME TO LUBE MY SALVAGE MODULES !! I sense repressed anger and a complete lack of grammar and spelling. Were you abused as a child? Show me on the doll where the bad man touched you. ~Alakith.
Gavin DeVries	Posted - 2009.08.14 17:20:00 - [143] When I mission, I use a faction fit CNR (CN Cruise launchers and CN ballistic controls). The longest mission for me is Worlds Collide, and that's if I do a full clearing on both sides of it; it's about 1 hour 15 minutes to clear. Angel Extravaganza takes me right at 1 hour including the bonus room. The Blockade is 35 minutes for me. Recon 1 of 3 takes 12 minutes, most are in the 20 minute range. Not counting LP, but looting and salvaging everything after the mission, melting down the non-sale-worthy loot (at 96.2% refine and no tax) and selling the salvage I get about 20 million an hour. It can vary depending on exactly how my string of mission luck has been running, as I'm not farming mission. I'm not the fastest mission runner by far. I'm not the slowest either. Personally, I detest ninja salvagers. I think they are wastes of space who get joy out of irritating others, and are thus lower forms of life than personal injury lawyers or politicians. However, my personal feelings aside, they are a fact of EVE life. You can whine about it, or learn to deal with it. ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
Borun Tal Minmatar Virtual Rock Industries	Posted - 2009.08.14 18:33:00 - [144] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Ah - you haven't 'been around very long' but already you know the whole history, eh? The "whole history" is patently irrelevent, since we're talking about how the game works NOW, and what CCP has said about how it works NOW. No amount of "clutter" is going to change anything. Everyone knows the rules, everyone knows what CCP has said about how it works (whether it'll change in the future or not is irrelevent to how it functions NOW), and there are limited options. To say or suggest anything else is just foolish. Just because you've been paying $$$ for years to play an internet space ship game longer than I have doesn't mean you have a wisdom beyond anyone else. :) Just means you've been wasting money longer that others. :)
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.14 19:17:00 - [145] Jarvis, you simply fail. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Mel Lifera To MR's who use 250-million-isk Megathrons with 20mil in T2 fittings Megathrons do not cost 200m. Not unless you are REALLY not trying to not be a fool with the market. The fittings for a well fit Mega are usually more than 20 million. Also, Megas are not common mission running ships (you're wanting CNRs or Dominixes for that) It is not uncommon for a mission ship to be worth more than a billion isk, and I've seen some that push 5B. Originally by: jarvis Quote: to kill fleets of NPC battleships with 500k-plus bounties a piece and who-knows-how-big a mission reward, Bounties for Empire rats only rarely get that high. We're not talking 0.0 stuff here. Mission rewards for an L4 tend to be around 2-3 million ISK. 500K bounties are the norm. I've seen them as high as 1.7M on regular npc rats and 4.5 on overseers. Originally by: jarvis Quote: and yet insist that a salvager coming in and snatching 2-3 mil worth of salvage is "taking money out of my wallet", or even "ruining the game" for them, all I can say is, "Perspective: find it." Talking about ISK per hour? You can spend a half hour going back to your mission wreck fields for that 2 mil, or you can go do another mission in the same amount of time. What a fail troll post. L4s usually run you (for the average rather than hyper-optimized mission runner) about 20 million ISK and take more than an hour to do. That's loot, salvage, LP, Bounties, Mission pay, the lot. Of that, in most missions, salvage runs between 25-50% of the take. Hardly. Salvage is more like 20% tops. And if it takes you an hour to run a mission, loot and salvage it, then you are doing it wrong. Most regular L4s take me between 5-25 minutes to run (during which time I tractor wrecks in to make lootballs) then another 5-10 minutes to loot/salvage. Big missions like AE take longer, but most missions aren't that big. Originally by: jarvis The total salvage from the L1 World's Collide was FOURTEEN TIMES the total value of the bounties, loot, LP stuff etc. etc. It's not some measely little percentage as you try and claim (without bothering to do a whit of research, clearly - you're just making numbers up). Were the numbers as you say - no one would complain. Or at least very few would. That is an L1 mission, which has crap bounties and rewards, so of course the salvage will be worth it. By the time you get to L4s, bounties and rewards are much bigger and eclipse the income of salvage. So much so that if you have good dps, it is often better to skip looting and salvaging and just run another mission. Originally by: jarvis There are ninjas out there who claim to make 20-30 million ISK per hour in salvage (check the forums - it's in there, someone from Suddenly IIRC). That's as much as a mission runner makes and he's doing it in a ship that he pays for completely SIXTY to EIGHTY times during that hour with no costs for ammo or other expendables. The Mission Runner managing the same amount, who would have to be pretty optimized in order to make the high end of that uses ammo and a ship that costs him or her seven to eight times that income or about 560 times what the ninja ship costs and he or she takes more risks. 20M an hour ninjaing is probably going to be the best hour of that ninja's life. He found the best missions and salvaged the large wrecks only and moved on, only to find another awesome mission. Its the same as MRs saying they make 100M an hour. Sure it is possible under the right circumstances, but it isn't the norm. Originally by: jarvis That's why salvaging is broken as it currently functions. Salvaging isn't broken, it works as CCP intended, which simply isn't the way you want it to.
Karentaki Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.08.14 21:57:00 - [146] Originally by: Nika Dekaia I can't see why people deem this thread or Mr. stanktroll worthy a reply. Flogging the dead horse isn't fitting anymore. I still vote for a sticky with Dev replies on the topic and permaban for anyone raising the topic again, ever . I agree. I suggest anyone who sees another thread like this report it as spam. There have been enough threads on this topic already. Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.15 04:36:00 - [147] Originally by: Galmarr Jarvis, Jarvis, Jarvis. Don't you know, your the reason we do this. Your the sqeaky/crying wheel/baby and we are giving you grease/grief. Please keep crying, It gives us more publicity. Our membership is jumping by the day. Lets give Jarvis a big round of applause. Thank you Jarvis. Oh, I'm not crying - just making sure everyone sees you for what you are. But by all means, feel grateful, it's no skin off my nose as you don't operate where I fly. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.15 04:46:00 - [148] Originally by: Mel Lifera "oh lol whatever, u would maek more isk running yr own missions so you fail at EVE". Oh is THAT what you were getting at. I don't think I've ever actually made the claim that ninjas fail because they could run missions and make more. I dislike them because they're: a) Irritating other players as a primary mode of play and b) Taking advantage of a glitch in the game that is extremely immersion breaking. Mostly the second. At least in my case. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.15 07:09:00 - [149] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom b) Taking advantage of a glitch in the game that is extremely immersion breaking. And what glitch is this? You surely don't mean being able to get into people's missions by probing or being able to salvage their wrecks, because CCP has stated over and over than these two things are working as intended.
stankpod	Posted - 2009.08.15 08:13:00 - [150] Dont waste your time with gAgalot he will defend ninjas till there blue in his face.
Bazuka	Posted - 2009.08.15 09:47:00 - [151] Apoc 1.5 is Introducing the Ninja`s wet dream - SALVAGER III. GET YOUR ORDERS NOW!!! ___________ CareMyBear!
Mel Lifera	Posted - 2009.08.15 13:43:00 - [152] Edited by: Mel Lifera on 15/08/2009 13:43:19 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom b) Taking advantage of a glitch in the game that is extremely immersion breaking. A glitch? That's like saying the Invincibility Star is a "glitch" in Super Mario Bros; to wit: it's not. The people who made the game have said it's not. We're doing what we're supposed to be doing. I would enjoy an explanation as to how encountering other players in a MMO game is immersion-breaking, though.
Hiedi Jarret	Posted - 2009.08.15 18:37:00 - [153] Edited by: Hiedi Jarret on 15/08/2009 18:40:00 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom I dislike them because they're: a) Irritating other players as a primary mode of play and b) Taking advantage of a glitch in the game that is extremely immersion breaking. Mostly the second. At least in my case. A) You assume that all salvage ninja do what they do because they irritate people. Or at least primarily because of its irritating quality. This, however, is an untenable conclusion. Yes, there are some that may ninja just to annoy MR's (as evidenced by some of the posts in this thread). But, there are many people who do it as a means to garner ISK with low level skills and could care less about the emotional state of the MR. I highly recommend it to newbs who need cash quickly for ships/mods/implants. Also, if you were correct in your assesment of motivation, ninjas would cease to exist if MR's stopped reacting. Much like how children will stop acting out if you do not give them the satisfaction of reaction. As i doubt that all ninja salvaging would cease if MRs stopped caring, then it seems the motivation you attribute to the action is false....unless you meant something completely different and just fail to communicate effectively.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.15 18:48:00 - [154] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 15/08/2009 18:49:58 The problem with the "they just do it to ** people off" argument is... 1) Not all of us do it for that reason. Ninjaing is far more fun than missions, and is a good income. 2) NO REASONABLE PERSON should get **ed off. You are going to make slightly less internet space money than you would if the ninja was not there. I've lost tens of millions of ISK at once to ship/pod loss and to this date I've yet to get angry over any of it. The reason we are amused when missionrunners lash out is because it's so outlandishly hilarious seeing someone throw a temper tantrum over it. Ever seen The Tourettes Guy? It's like that
Bazuka	Posted - 2009.08.15 20:55:00 - [155] I heard that Ninjas get a half-boner just from looking at salvagers in their hangar. Is this true? Can any Ninja confirm this? ___________ CareMyBear!
JordanParey Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.16 01:31:00 - [156] Originally by: Bazuka I heard that Ninjas get a half-boner just from looking at salvagers in their hangar. Is this true? Can any Ninja confirm this? confirming I get a chubby when I have 80 million in salvage in my Firetail's cargo.
Bazuka	Posted - 2009.08.16 01:50:00 - [157] Originally by: JordanParey Originally by: Bazuka I heard that Ninjas get a half-boner just from looking at salvagers in their hangar. Is this true? Can any Ninja confirm this? confirming I get a chubby when I have 80 million in salvage in my Firetail's cargo. The question was how do you feel about the Salvager module. You take a look at Salvager I and? Chubby? Y/N/Mby? ___________ CareMyBear!
Willy Pete Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.16 02:07:00 - [158] Originally by: Bazuka Originally by: JordanParey Originally by: Bazuka I heard that Ninjas get a half-boner just from looking at salvagers in their hangar. Is this true? Can any Ninja confirm this? confirming I get a chubby when I have 80 million in salvage in my Firetail's cargo. The question was how do you feel about the Salvager module. You take a look at Salvager I and? Chubby? Y/N/Mby? Slavger Is make me warm, Salvager IIs make me chubby, the thought of Salvager IIIs make me hard. Real hard
Bazuka	Posted - 2009.08.16 02:23:00 - [159] Originally by: Willy Pete Originally by: Bazuka Originally by: JordanParey Originally by: Bazuka I heard that Ninjas get a half-boner just from looking at salvagers in their hangar. Is this true? Can any Ninja confirm this? confirming I get a chubby when I have 80 million in salvage in my Firetail's cargo. The question was how do you feel about the Salvager module. You take a look at Salvager I and? Chubby? Y/N/Mby? Slavger Is make me warm, Salvager IIs make me chubby, the thought of Salvager IIIs make me hard. Real hard Good. You might be interested in my offer then. I have an uniqe kind of a Salvager. It`s a "storyline" Salvager and it`s one of a kind, there for I can`t really sell it, but I can rent it. It performs much better then any Salvager you know. And it`s big. I mean really really big. Huge. Monster huge. Would you be interested in renting the services of my Salvager? You wont be disapointed I guarantee. ___________ CareMyBear!
HottyChick	Posted - 2009.08.16 12:40:00 - [160] If I spend isk and MY time to kill a rat than its wreck belong to ME ONLY. Wat ccp say about STEALING salvage is simply one big B.....T. Ppl who steal salvage are worthless scams, lazy and disgusting bastards. And till ccp APROVE this there isnt much we can do about it. If it happens to me I just blow all the wrecks and using ECCM helps too.
Mel Lifera	Posted - 2009.08.16 13:16:00 - [161] Originally by: HottyChick Wat ccp say about STEALING salvage is simply one big B.....T. What ccp say about HARVESTING salvage is the Holy Word of God. Your approval is unnecessary.
Bazuka	Posted - 2009.08.16 16:26:00 - [162] Originally by: HottyChick If I spend isk and MY time to kill a rat than its wreck belong to ME ONLY. Wat ccp say about STEALING salvage is simply one big B.....T. Ppl who steal salvage are worthless scams, lazy and disgusting bastards. Sometimes I agree with those statements, sometimes I don`t. Sometimes i like Ninja`s atitude, sometimes I think they act too c.ocky on forums and deserve some biatch slaping. My mood usually depends on the weather outside and the quality of my coffee. ___________ CareMyBear!
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.16 21:08:00 - [163] Originally by: Bazuka Originally by: HottyChick If I spend isk and MY time to kill a rat than its wreck belong to ME ONLY. Wat ccp say about STEALING salvage is simply one big B.....T. Ppl who steal salvage are worthless scams, lazy and disgusting bastards. Sometimes I agree with those statements, sometimes I don`t. Sometimes i like Ninja`s atitude, sometimes I think they act too c.ocky on forums and deserve some biatch slaping. My mood usually depends on the weather outside and the quality of my coffee. Only Mocha lattes for you sir, I'll get it right away. Originally by: Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
Neckbeard Griefmonger	Posted - 2009.08.16 21:26:00 - [164] Originally by: HottyChick If I spend isk and MY time to kill a rat than its wreck belong to ME ONLY. Wat ccp say about STEALING salvage is simply one big B.....T. Ppl who steal salvage are worthless scams, lazy and disgusting bastards. And till ccp APROVE this there isnt much we can do about it. If it happens to me I just blow all the wrecks and using ECCM helps too. Sigh, the rules are quite clear on this. The wreck belongs to no one. Once it is salvaged, then the salvaged materials belong to the person who did the salvaging. CCP has stated over and over in response to MR's complaints of ninjas, the mechanics are working as intended. If you want to play a single player game, I suggest homeworld. EVE is a MMO, and you have to deal with others whether you want to or not.
Bazuka	Posted - 2009.08.16 22:51:00 - [165] I`m one proud fckin` carebear that of course does L4s all the time,and if you`ve read some of my long melodramatic posts in general you`d know that I`m anti-griefer kind of a dude that would light his cigarettes with ISK if I knew that would annoy a griefer or two, BUT... on this issue I must side with the Ninja-jitsu. Some reasons: 1. Even though it looks like ninja salvaging does extracts a tear or two I don`t consider it griefing, it doesnt qualify. Maybe qualifies as annoyance but that`s it. And i think you really need to be some ultra uptight arrogant ***** to think that every pixel in your mission belongs to you just because you pressed F1 couple of times. So even a Kumbaya -heal the world- give peace a chance- type of a dude like me can see the appeal of couple of missioner tears. 2. I`m just gonna guess that players willing to shed a tear for this are very few. If that`s true, for a ninja that only values tears this means he needs to spend considerable game time in order to loot a tear. So the time investment and effort is already there so you can`t call them lazy. 3. Suddenly Ninjas is one of those cool names you wish you came up with yourself. Every time I read it makes me smile, and laughing is good for ya. ___________ CareMyBear!
Izztyrr Maemtor Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.17 00:37:00 - [166] Originally by: Bazuka 2. I`m just gonna guess that players willing to shed a tear for this are very few. This is true and there seems to be less and less tears as time passes. Mission runners are starting to ignore me altogether. (How dare they?!) Plus I'm seeing more and more groups in missions with dedicated salvagers. We get into these races for salvage. Sometimes I get the impression that they're having as more fun then me. Have to tip my hat to those people. They're playing the game the right way.
Terranid Meester Tactical Assault and Recon Unit	Posted - 2009.08.17 01:00:00 - [167] Edited by: Terranid Meester on 17/08/2009 00:59:56 Originally by: Treyah Im dumb Originally by: stankpod Me too Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom So am I
4KICKS Trap and Kill inc.	Posted - 2009.08.17 03:12:00 - [168] I got tears today!!! OMG tears!! He started shooting his wrecks till there were none. i salveged wat i could and he left.He turned in the mission and i looted every thing :)Then he called me really bad names!
Marguerite Antiki	Posted - 2009.08.17 03:19:00 - [169] Originally by: 4KICKS I got tears today!!! OMG tears!! He started shooting his wrecks till there were none. i salveged wat i could and he left.He turned in the mission and i looted every thing :)Then he called me really bad names! Had that also - been told they would Deathray my Family, hunt me down etc etc. I even had one go as far as sending me an evemail advising that they are going to wardec me if I didnt stop. Pity - the wardec never happened :(
Vorsmyth	Posted - 2009.08.17 03:58:00 - [170] I am a mission runner and the only change I would like to see is to have it make them blinky red just like can fliping. This would be a huge boon to mission runners as it would do several things. 1. Kill off stupid runners and incrase the demand for faction modules and thus their price. 2. Reward mission runners who fit real amounts of gank on their setup, I fly a double target painter with rigor rig setup and I 2 shot any ninja that goes blinky. Just do like low sec and pre align to a safe spot no matter what you are doing. For every runner who decides that perma boosting there XL raven steup is good god kills a kitten and this would save kittens. 3. Feel far more consistant for rules application. Either make + wreck no ones property or loot + wreck the mission runners property, this 50/50 just feels odd. I have no problem with folks that go ninja any more than I do with those that go pirate. They have chosen a different way to enjoy the game and as a carebear I should just do what I can to beat them without being stupid. I would simply like the same chance to take a shot or not that a miner has.
Marguerite Antiki	Posted - 2009.08.17 04:11:00 - [171] Originally by: Vorsmyth I am a mission runner and the only change I would like to see is to have it make them blinky red just like can fliping. This would be a huge boon to mission runners as it would do several things. 1. Kill off stupid runners and incrase the demand for faction modules and thus their price. 2. Reward mission runners who fit real amounts of gank on their setup, I fly a double target painter with rigor rig setup and I 2 shot any ninja that goes blinky. Just do like low sec and pre align to a safe spot no matter what you are doing. For every runner who decides that perma boosting there XL raven steup is good god kills a kitten and this would save kittens. 3. Feel far more consistant for rules application. Either make + wreck no ones property or loot + wreck the mission runners property, this 50/50 just feels odd. I have no problem with folks that go ninja any more than I do with those that go pirate. They have chosen a different way to enjoy the game and as a carebear I should just do what I can to beat them without being stupid. I would simply like the same chance to take a shot or not that a miner has. OH PLEASE OH PLEASE OH PLEASE OH PLEASE OH PLEASE Please impliment this just for a day. As I would love to go flashy red and get shot at. I go as far as taking select items from cans while the MR is there yet they dont do a thing. Maybe its cause I have done a ship scan - checked out their ship; weighed up what I need and then prepped a better PvP ship for their PvE tank. And how I know this, I was once a MR in a mission, some one grabbed a can of mine and looted it, I proceeded to punch holes in their ship only to have them warp off / come back and Energy neut me, web me, scram me, and then blow holes in me along with the remaining NPCs in the mission. Was a great fisting up my ass that I didnt expect.
Valixithor Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.17 11:23:00 - [172] Software Engineer CCP Prism X: ôBefore the salvage enters those containers [your cargo-hold / hangar] it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence itÆs not stealing.ö By the same token, couldn't you also say "Before the (loot dropped by NPC wrecks) enters those containers [your cargo-hold / hangar] it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence itÆs not stealing." Just for the record, I'm merely pointing this out. I'm all for ninja salvagers doing what they please. If it forces missions runners to spread out into less populated areas, that's a good thing IMO. It will find a balance. If you don't like it, have a suicide gank alt on standby. Blow up the wrecks. Salvage as you go. Move somewhere else. Wardec the ninja salvager. You have options people. (I guess your options also include whining but there we go) Originally by: Yoravian If by 'you guys are pretty nasty' you mean 'you guys are sure good at explaining game mechanics to guys like me', then yes. Yes we are.
Galmarr Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.17 11:51:00 - [173] Keep it coming! What, 5 more recriuts in one day!?! Lets bump this baby!
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.08.17 13:40:00 - [174] Let's hear it for the TEARS team :) And while you're here, dear reader, please take the time to read Kahega's Ninja Salvaging Guide. For those of you who need to be spoon fed: Motsu, Dodixie, Emolgranlan, Sasoutikh. Here's to health and prosperity! [Aussie players: join channel ANZAC]
Kezzle	Posted - 2009.08.17 14:42:00 - [175] Originally by: Valixithor By the same token, couldn't you also say "Before the (loot dropped by NPC wrecks) enters those containers [your cargo-hold / hangar] it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence itÆs not stealing." Not currently, no, since the serverc code does recognise that the wreck-creator owns the loot before it hits the inside of their cargo hold. Would it ba a trivial programming change? Possibly. Quote: Just for the record, I'm merely pointing this out. Ditto. Though I have to agree that the current loot/salvage/wreck shooting rights assignment is a bit screwy, and it should all be one thing or another.
JCache Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.17 15:04:00 - [176] Originally by: Valixithor Software Engineer CCP Prism X: ôBefore the salvage enters those containers [your cargo-hold / hangar] it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence itÆs not stealing.ö By the same token, couldn't you also say "Before the (loot dropped by NPC wrecks) enters those containers [your cargo-hold / hangar] it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence itÆs not stealing." The logic is more like, someone put effort into it, so the reward is his. So if you kill the rat the loot is yours, but in order to get the salvage you have to put some extra effort into getting it, which the ninja has to do as well... hence, the salvage is his too. Please refrain from moderating on the discussion forums.
Ufen Zakalwe	Posted - 2009.08.17 16:01:00 - [177] Y'know with all these "CCP say it ain't broken answers" with regards to wreck ownership can I just point out that this is also their answer to the spectacularly messed up sound.
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.17 16:55:00 - [178] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom It's interesting also that SN is now an 'Alliance' even though nearly all the members of that alliance are in SN (about 20 of their 140 members are not in the SN corp). Being an alliance makes them much more expensive to wardec for a newer corp. I asked them about this and they never once gave me any reason for it so it certainly looks like they're now hiding from wardecs when they used to publicly claim that they welcomed them. I can't speak for Suddenly Ninjas, but I can speak for Ironfleet Towing and Salvage, which is proud to be a member (with SN and others) of TEARS alliance. From Ironfleet's perspective, the alliance offers many of the usual benefits, especially including the ability to field larger fleets for specific operations. Suddenly Ninjas is famous for its ability to field huge swarms of energetic, enthusiastic and aggressive salvagers; as an older player with a tendency to fly solo a lot, they are a joy to fly with. Again not speaking for TEARS or ninja-salvagers generally, I can say that Ironfleet Towing and Salvage is all about the loot. Salvage is nice, but we were a salvage corporation before this game ever had wrecks or rig-salvage. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.17 16:56:00 - [179] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 17/08/2009 17:03:29 I'm confused.. Where exactly do missionrunners get this feeling of eneitlement? "I created it, therefore it's mine" doesn't work. If you work in a chocolate factory and make a chocolate bar..does it belong to you? If you think of it in a game-lore sort of way (And that's the only way you can make an "ownership" argument), all the loot and wrecks belong to the Serpentis/Guristas/Sansha/Blood/Angel corp. Quote: It's interesting also that SN is now an 'Alliance' even though nearly all the members of that alliance are in SN (about 20 of their 140 members are not in the SN corp). Being an alliance makes them much more expensive to wardec for a newer corp. I asked them about this and they never once gave me any reason for it so it certainly looks like they're now hiding from wardecs when they used to publicly claim that they welcomed them. I'm too lazy to dig up the old forum post...but the original idea behind the alliance was to get like-minded people together who may not have necessarily wanted to leave their old corps. So far, this has worked pretty well and allowed us to do things that we couldn't with a single corp. The vast majority of the alliance is SN, but we have a few others. We originally planned to be a bit larger, but the original additions to the alliance were inactive/bad, and we never really pursued it further. As far as wardecs, it depends. Enraging someone enough to hire mercs or dec us ourselves is hilarious (Hence we welcome it); it usually means someone got incredibly butthurt. "Random decs" are more annoying than anything. They're not hard to survive in by any means (To date, only one corp has ever decced us that could do more than slap a battleship blob on Dodixie M20), but they're a hassle (I have to get my blockade runner out for hauling). Avoiding random decs was never a reason for the creation of TEARS, but I suppose it's been useful. The fact that it's raised our own wardec costs to 50m has actually probably been more of an issue.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.17 19:54:00 - [180] Originally by: g0ggalor Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom b) Taking advantage of a glitch in the game that is extremely immersion breaking. And what glitch is this? The one which makes taking an object worth 10 Isk 'theft' but considers an object worth 8 million ISK 'valueless space junk' available to anyone. (The 8 million number is T2 salvage btw - but it's just as ludicrous to compare, say, a single piece of ammunition and a single Melted Cap) May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.17 20:41:00 - [181] Edited by: Jarvis Hellstrom on 17/08/2009 20:42:39 Originally by: Kahega Amielden I'm confused.. It's hardly rocket science. Start an alt and try working it up entirely the other way without ninja-ing and I expect you'll understand it very quickly. Quote: Where exactly do missionrunners get this feeling of entitlement? "I created it, therefore it's mine" doesn't work. If you work in a chocolate factory and make a chocolate bar..does it belong to you? Umm no. That analogy is nonsensical and inappropriate. How about this one - You're a mercenary in some mythical SF world. You spend a long time and a lot of money building up a rep so you can work for the government. To do this you need a very expensive spaceship as the folks you're killing for the government make mincemeat out of cheap spaceships. You also have to be very skilled as unskilled people die to these bad guys too. That's why the government hired you. So you go see your contact one day and he says, "Hey there, our spies have found this nest of bad guys. No one else even knows about them or can find them but my lads have. Would you please go and kill them? They're criminals so feel free to keep all their crap. We've frozen their assets and they're legally not allowed to own anything in our space." So you fly out there and start killing the scumbags. Then, before you know it, there's some guy in a tissue paper ship with no guns grabbing stuff worth millions. You say, "Hey, that's mine, quit it!" To which he replies, "Sorry, THAT stuff is yours. THIS stuff is anyone's. and I'm grabbing it." "Now wait a sec," you say, "My contact gave me the navigation to this space. How did you find it?" "Oh, I didn't find it. I found you. I can't even talk to your contact, I have no standing. I can't fly a ship good enough to kill these bad guys either. In fact, if not for your efforts I couldn't do a darned thing here. So thanks!" "Why the heck aren't you showing up as stealing from me?" "Oh, well this stuff requires a salvager to take so anyone can do it. That stuff can be grabbed by anyone, so it's stealing and this isn't. It's just space junk." "But this stuff is worth 2000 ISK and that 'junk', which somehow isn't stealing, is worth ten times that!" "Yeah, nice loophole, huh?" "Hang on, I have a salvager - but I'm busying fighting." "Too bad for you then I got here first. I'm going to go hide behind Concord now. Tee hee!" Honestly - it's not THAT hard to figure out. Quote: If you think of it in a game-lore sort of way (And that's the only way you can make an "ownership" argument), all the loot and wrecks belong to the Serpentis/Guristas/Sansha/Blood/Angel corp. Stuff and nonsense. In every virtually every case the missioners are killing enemies of the state, terrorists or criminals. It's not even remotely hard to imagine the government freezing their assets and stating that anyone who kills them with government sanction (ie. sent by an agent) also has a right to whatever is on their body/wreck/etc. in addition to their posted bounty. In the old west it was pretty common for those collecting the bounty of those wanted dead or alive to just pocket their weaponry, animals and the like after gunning them down. It's much like that. Salvaging is a loophole and, like many other things, CCP hasn't fixed it and is currently denying that there is a problem. We've seen this with lots of other things too - right up until they change their mind and fix it. Hopefully that will happen here too as the current situation only makes sense to those taking advantage of it. Otherwise we wouldn't see all these salvage threads, each started by a different player. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.08.17 22:21:00 - [182] Edited by: Mara Rinn on 17/08/2009 22:23:12 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom So you fly out there and start killing the scumbags. Then, before you know it, there's some guy in a tissue paper ship with no guns grabbing stuff worth millions. You say, "Hey, that's mine, quit it!" You're trying to explain your sense of entitlement by describing your sense of entitlement. Quit it. If you can't salvage the wrecks before the scavangers arrive, that's your bad luck. As any real world military about the problems of looters and opportunists in war zones, and you'll have a better idea of the correct analogy to make. (edit: the phrase I'm most interested in is "secure that body" which means "loot and salvage the wreck before someone else does.") [Aussie players: join channel ANZAC]
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.17 22:32:00 - [183] Quote: You're a mercenary in some mythical SF world. You spend a long time and a lot of money building up a rep so you can work for the government. To do this you need a very expensive spaceship as the folks you're killing for the government make mincemeat out of cheap spaceships. You also have to be very skilled as unskilled people die to these bad guys too. That's why the government hired you. you forgot the part where if you die, you magically respawn, and how if your ship gets destroyed the friendly insurance company with infinite money stocks repays you. Quote: So you fly out there and start killing the scumbags. Then, before you know it, there's some guy in a tissue paper ship with no guns grabbing stuff worth millions. You say, "Hey, that's mine, quit it!" To which he replies, "Sorry, THAT stuff is yours. THIS stuff is anyone's. and I'm grabbing it." It has nothing to do with what your agent permits you to do. The salvaging/looting laws are done by CONCORD, which is totally unrelated to your agent. CONCORD has stated that if you destroy a pirate ship, then intact modules are legally yours whereas the fried parts of the spaceship are not. Regardless...look at it from a gameplay perspective. CCP can change the mechanics to boost hisec missionrunning (Something that's obviously needed)...Or, they can encourage a totally new profession which many people find enjoyable and is very newbie-friendly.
Marguerite Antiki	Posted - 2009.08.17 23:02:00 - [184] Edited by: Marguerite Antiki on 17/08/2009 23:03:53 ..
popama	Posted - 2009.08.17 23:12:00 - [185] If wrecks are ffa, then why do they turn yellow when somebody else has killed the rats? If this ninjia activity is an new career intended by the ccp, then they should lift the color-signaling from the wrecks so ppl don't have this controversy. If not, fix it then so we have a fair game.
FOl2TY8 Revolutionary United Front Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.08.17 23:23:00 - [186] This thread makes me want to join TEARS. Where can I sign up?!?! ---------- This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve
Mel Lifera	Posted - 2009.08.17 23:29:00 - [187] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Umm no. That analogy is nonsensical and inappropriate. You may not think the analogy is a good one, but it in by no means nonsensical. Nice bit of depitation though. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom How about this one - ...which isn't an analogy at all, but a rather a description of the original problem. Nonetheless - are you saying the above scenario is something that, allowing the "real life" existence of the world of EVE, could not realistically happen? Would scanning people running missions be impossible for some reason? Would warping to them be impossible? Cleaning up the wrecks while they're otherwise occupied - undoable? Some sort of physical law preventing it from happening? Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Stuff and nonsense. In every virtually every case the missioners are killing enemies of the state, terrorists or criminals. It's not even remotely hard to imagine the government freezing their assets and stating that anyone who kills them with government sanction (ie. sent by an agent) also has a right to whatever is on their body/wreck/etc. in addition to their posted bounty. In the old west it was pretty common for those collecting the bounty of those wanted dead or alive to just pocket their weaponry, animals and the like after gunning them down. It's much like that. And would your wild west hero who shoots down the bad guy and then leaves his weaponry, animals, and so forth to go back to town and get a mule have a valid complaint if, on his way back an hour later he finds somebody has run off with the bad guy's gun and hat? "Darnit, that was mine! Who cares if I just left it there!" You know how many missions we find where the loot and wrecks have been completely abandoned, period? Don't think we take note of the names on those cans and then laugh a while later when we actually encounter them on some other mission, suddenly self-righteously braying that we're "cutting into their profits" when they see us coming to pick up wrecks they would in all likelihood have left there otherwise? Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Salvaging is a loophole and, like many other things, CCP hasn't fixed it and is currently denying that there is a problem. We've seen this with lots of other things too - right up until they change their mind and fix it. Hopefully that will happen here too as the current situation only makes sense to those taking advantage of it. Otherwise we wouldn't see all these salvage threads, each started by a different player. I truly shudder to think how all these mission runners had been surviving before the advent of wreckage and salvaging in EVE. There must've been NO billion-ISK MR's back then. Heck, they were probably losing money on missions, what with only bounties and objectives and loot to keep their heads above the water of ISK-ruptcy. At any rate, "salvaging" is not a loophole at all. Mission runners have absolutely no problem with the mere concept of being able to pull a few mil out of a field of garbage (assuming you have the necessary skills trained and modules fitted). They just don't like the fact that they're not the only ones allowed to do so. Well...sorry about your luck, but you didn't include the proper modules on your ship. I have absolutely no skill in archaeology yet, so I cannot use an analyzer module. But, I can scan down magnetometric sites like a charm! Logically, a mission runner who claims that "Ninja Salvaging" should be disallowed and is a "glitch" would be required to argue that I, as the person who first scans down the archaeological site, should be the only person allowed to harvest whatever item lies within - whether I have the appropriate module fitted or skill trained, or not. After all, I had the skill, and did the work, of finding the site, right? And if it's going to take me three weeks to train up Archaeology, then by god that site will have to wait for me.
Gilldanar	Posted - 2009.08.18 01:27:00 - [188] This thread is just full of tears, makes me laugh.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.08.18 05:06:00 - [189] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom There are ninjas out there who claim to make 20-30 million ISK per hour in salvage (check the forums - it's in there, someone from Suddenly IIRC). That's as much as a mission runner makes and he's doing it in a ship that he pays for completely SIXTY to EIGHTY times during that hour with no costs for ammo or other expendables. And the key question here is: so what? Why is it such a horrible crime that other professions pay more than mission running? Whether those numbers are actually true or not is actually irrelevant, they issue here is that, for some reason, MR whiners apparently can't stand the thought of someone else making more money than they do. Why is that? "Effort" you say? Again: so what? There are plenty of things that take more effort and pay less than mission running — does that mean we should nerf missions? "Training time" you say? So what? You seem to confuse EVE with a level grind game where more is better. "Equipment cost" you say? So what? Just because you choose to invest a crapton of ISK into an activity doesn't mean the activity must pay that investment back — if you overinvest and don't get an adequate payback, then that's your mistake. Even so, by the same logic, you can easily pay several hundred millions for an "optimized" salvage setup, so the argument is based on an apples-to-squid comparison anyway. So the question remains: why is it so horrid that people other than mission runners make money? More importantly, why is it so horrid that people who engage in competetive activities — you know, the essence of EVE and all that — make more money than the completely non-competetive MR profession? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.18 05:12:00 - [190] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: g0ggalor Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom b) Taking advantage of a glitch in the game that is extremely immersion breaking. And what glitch is this? The one which makes taking an object worth 10 Isk 'theft' but considers an object worth 8 million ISK 'valueless space junk' available to anyone. (The 8 million number is T2 salvage btw - but it's just as ludicrous to compare, say, a single piece of ammunition and a single Melted Cap) LMFAO dude you fail so hard! a) Its not a glitch. Let me quotes CCP since you seem to have missed this point, "The salvage mechanics are working as intended." Tell me, how does that translate to "glitch" in your mind? b) How many missions do you get T2 salvage? Don't answer, since I know. Its none. Zip. Zero. But if you want to use that fail argument, I could compare the dropping of a faction blueprint worth 40 million to salvage that has a buy order of .01 isk. You act like every piece of salvage is made of gold when really there are only a handful of salvage components that are worth much at all and the rest are barely as profitable as ammo drops.
Mav'Lite	Posted - 2009.08.18 05:38:00 - [191] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Edited by: Jarvis Hellstrom on 17/08/2009 20:42:39 Originally by: Kahega Amielden I'm confused.. It's hardly rocket science. Start an alt and try working it up entirely the other way without ninja-ing and I expect you'll understand it very quickly. Quote: Where exactly do missionrunners get this feeling of entitlement? "I created it, therefore it's mine" doesn't work. If you work in a chocolate factory and make a chocolate bar..does it belong to you? Umm no. That analogy is nonsensical and inappropriate. How about this one - You're a mercenary in some mythical SF world. You spend a long time and a lot of money building up a rep so you can work for the government. To do this you need a very expensive spaceship as the folks you're killing for the government make mincemeat out of cheap spaceships. You also have to be very skilled as unskilled people die to these bad guys too. That's why the government hired you. So you go see your contact one day and he says, "Hey there, our spies have found this nest of bad guys. No one else even knows about them or can find them but my lads have. Would you please go and kill them? They're criminals so feel free to keep all their crap. We've frozen their assets and they're legally not allowed to own anything in our space." So you fly out there and start killing the scumbags. Then, before you know it, there's some guy in a tissue paper ship with no guns grabbing stuff worth millions. You say, "Hey, that's mine, quit it!" To which he replies, "Sorry, THAT stuff is yours. THIS stuff is anyone's. and I'm grabbing it." "Now wait a sec," you say, "My contact gave me the navigation to this space. How did you find it?" "Oh, I didn't find it. I found you. I can't even talk to your contact, I have no standing. I can't fly a ship good enough to kill these bad guys either. In fact, if not for your efforts I couldn't do a darned thing here. So thanks!" "Why the heck aren't you showing up as stealing from me?" "Oh, well this stuff requires a salvager to take so anyone can do it. That stuff can be grabbed by anyone, so it's stealing and this isn't. It's just space junk." "But this stuff is worth 2000 ISK and that 'junk', which somehow isn't stealing, is worth ten times that!" "Yeah, nice loophole, huh?" "Hang on, I have a salvager - but I'm busying fighting." "Too bad for you then I got here first. I'm going to go hide behind Concord now. Tee hee!" Honestly - it's not THAT hard to figure out. Quote: If you think of it in a game-lore sort of way (And that's the only way you can make an "ownership" argument), all the loot and wrecks belong to the Serpentis/Guristas/Sansha/Blood/Angel corp. Stuff and nonsense. In every virtually every case the missioners are killing enemies of the state, terrorists or criminals. It's not even remotely hard to imagine the government freezing their assets and stating that anyone who kills them with government sanction (ie. sent by an agent) also has a right to whatever is on their body/wreck/etc. in addition to their posted bounty. In the old west it was pretty common for those collecting the bounty of those wanted dead or alive to just pocket their weaponry, animals and the like after gunning them down. It's much like that. Salvaging is a loophole and, like many other things, CCP hasn't fixed it and is currently denying that there is a problem. We've seen this with lots of other things too - right up until they change their mind and fix it. Hopefully that will happen here too as the current situation only makes sense to those taking advantage of it. Otherwise we wouldn't see all these salvage threads, each started by a different player. Sir it does not happen often but i am left speechless by your total nooblet stupidity, the rubbish you talk should be framed for eternity so my fellow ninja brother and i can sit back with a cigar and gin whilst heartily laughing at the sweet sweet tears you cry. However if you are still unhappy and wish to make it official please write to me at the following address: Reverend Ninja Mav 21 Rackham Towers (near the gentlemens club) Slough D01 CARE
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.08.18 15:05:00 - [192] Nice thread. But the bottom line for me is this: I will keep salvaging wreaks created by other people until CCP tells me I can not. I will do it because I can. I don't care if I hurt the feelings of the person who created the wreak. I don't care if that person calls me names in local. I don't care if that person says anything in local. I don't care if that person war decs me or hires mercs to come after me. Do I care what people on the forums think about me? No I do not. So, until CCP changes the rules of their game I will do has I please because people in the game who I do this to are a bunch of unorganized entities who couldn't get together to stop me if their in game life depended on it. All they are capable of is running to the forums and complaining to CCP that people are taking their stuff and CCP should do something about it. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Bazuka	Posted - 2009.08.18 15:17:00 - [193] Edited by: Bazuka on 18/08/2009 15:17:54 Originally by: Traidor Disloyal Nice thread. But the bottom line for me is this: I will keep salvaging wreaks created by other people until CCP tells me I can not. I will do it because I can. I don't care if I hurt the feelings of the person who created the wreak. I don't care if that person calls me names in local. I don't care if that person says anything in local. I don't care if that person war decs me or hires mercs to come after me. Do I care what people on the forums think about me? No I do not. Kepp it real Dawg! Keep it real. NINJA EDIT: forgot ___________ CareMyBear!
Terminus Vindictus Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.18 16:11:00 - [194] Edited by: Terminus Vindictus on 18/08/2009 16:12:17 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Salvaging is a loophole and, like many other things, CCP hasn't fixed it and is currently denying that there is a problem. We've seen this with lots of other things too - right up until they change their mind and fix it. Hopefully that will happen here too as the current situation only makes sense to those taking advantage of it. Otherwise we wouldn't see all these salvage threads, each started by a different player. Uhm, CCP has already made many posts supporting salvaging. Do you even know what a loophole is? Would we have salvager modules and salvaging skills in the game if salvaging was some sort of unintended consequence of the game that people are exploiting? No. Is salvaging perfect? No, but nothing in this game is. It's a living entity that keep evolving. Maybe in the future wrecks that either have no loot in them or have already been inspected by the person who killed that ship will turn white instead of yellow, so the loot and the wreck will clearly belong to anyone. You're certainly free to make that suggestion in the suggestions forum. Coming on this forum and complaining about being inconvenienced by an existing game feature is pointless and counter-productive. It's your choice to run missions in a busy system. If you have an issue with how much ISK/hour salvagers are making compared to your mission-running, you're perfectly free to engage in the same profession yourself. If you don't like the rules of this game, feel free to go back to your mythical SF game you talked about. Hello, I'm from the Government and I'm here to help.
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.08.18 16:21:00 - [195] I have a thought (don't friggin laugh): Why would CCP make a salvaging skill and have modules and rigs for it if they did not want people to salvage wreaks created by others? Why would CCP go through all that if they just wanted the wreak creator to have the salvage? Why not just place the salvage inside the wreak like the loot is now? I think they did it to make people mad. I think CCP is a bunch of grifers! Damn them! Damn them to the Seven Hells! ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.18 16:24:00 - [196] Tell me. How many pages does it take to get to the center of a care bear tear? Originally by: Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
Humble Epidemic	Posted - 2009.08.18 16:24:00 - [197] Originally by: Treyah They should be kill worthy, just as if they were stealing the loot in the cans. It's the same thing, if you prohibit players from looting another person's can - then the salvage should count too. Quit being lazy and change the code please - or else let me rob from other people's cans with only a sec hit. if youd salvage it before i get to it there wouldnt be a problem!!!
Lubomir Penev Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2009.08.18 16:28:00 - [198] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom There are ninjas out there who claim to make 20-30 million ISK per hour in salvage (check the forums - it's in there, someone from Suddenly IIRC). That's as much as a mission runner makes and he's doing it in a ship that he pays for completely SIXTY to EIGHTY times during that hour with no costs for ammo or other expendables. tbh salvaging is much more work than mission running, you got to move and to actually target stuff and activate modules.... :effort: It's so much work that I don't do it, while I still run mission without looting (well, my domi does). A salvager, ninja or not, at least is not making afk money. -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog
Twarlock Amarr Sinister Elite Raining Doom	Posted - 2009.08.19 07:19:00 - [199] Edited by: Twarlock on 19/08/2009 07:20:17 solution is simple: Lock the mission gates to be used only by mission runner and/or his fleet.
Marguerite Antiki	Posted - 2009.08.19 08:15:00 - [200] Edited by: Marguerite Antiki on 19/08/2009 08:15:43 Originally by: Twarlock Edited by: Twarlock on 19/08/2009 07:20:17 solution is simple: Lock the mission gates to be used only by mission runner and/or his fleet. So whats the point of probing out mission runners then ? You just killed some of the fanbase of EVE and the left the PvP players who do probing for players in low sec remain in the game. You dont make games do you or work in a leadership role of some type cause if you do, you fail.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.08.19 08:19:00 - [201] Originally by: Twarlock solution is simple: Lock the mission gates to be used only by mission runner and/or his fleet. That's a simple solution, yes, but it's also 100% flawed. Above all, it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Darkdarcek	Posted - 2009.08.19 08:21:00 - [202] Originally by: THE L0CK Tell me. How many pages does it take to get to the center of a care bear tear?
Carcopino	Posted - 2009.08.19 09:53:00 - [203] Uhmm, I think ninja salvagers are like parasites, in that they need a host - whom they harm in return - to feed on( i.e. = they take a chunk of the income, yet offer nothing for it ). And just like parasites, they don't know what they are and they don't care anyway. At least,
Aeneidae Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.08.19 12:56:00 - [204] I have no problem with Ninja salvagers. Today, after about 100 L4 missions, i got my first ninja salvager. I got a bit upset because he looted some Gallente BS tags, which were probably worth a few millions. But my upset turned into a smile when he evemailed me: "Thanks for the tags and loot....was about 20 millions :)". Now, i am sure he would have expected tears from me, but i don't rage over a space ship game, so i just smiled thinking that he really is a sad piece of human that needs grief to satisfy his ego. But then again, that's his personal problem, and as a ninja salvager, i have nothing on him. He was blinking red to me, so why didn't i shoot him?
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.19 14:52:00 - [205] Originally by: Mav'Lite Sir it does not happen often but i am left speechless by your total nooblet stupidity, the rubbish you talk should be framed for eternity so my fellow ninja brothers and i can sit back with a cigar and gin whilst heartily laughing at the sweet sweet tears you cry. You forgot to add that the ice in your gin (if you do such a horrid thing) is made from the tears of careberars... a accidental side proffesion of ninja salvagers... Signd a MR carebear that don't care, and actually wish that wrecks could be scanned down, since there are SO much space junk flying around that no one salvages! To ninja Salvagers, fair cop! i then try to work around you! As would be a natural action to take, not to wine... For those who like RW comparison, check maritime law on salvagin... cargo to the owner, salvage to the salvager... CCP = good research (BTW Ninja Dudes, Stay out of my missions, or i'll sing the carebear intro for you ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNm5Hqow78I
Twarlock Amarr Sinister Elite Raining Doom	Posted - 2009.08.19 15:00:00 - [206] Originally by: Marguerite Antiki Edited by: Marguerite Antiki on 19/08/2009 08:15:43 Originally by: Twarlock Edited by: Twarlock on 19/08/2009 07:20:17 solution is simple: Lock the mission gates to be used only by mission runner and/or his fleet. So whats the point of probing out mission runners then ? You just killed some of the fanbase of EVE and the left the PvP players who do probing for players in low sec remain in the game. You dont make games do you or work in a leadership role of some type cause if you do, you fail. ooook - lock the hisec gates. Anyone running lowsec missions is asking for it anyway so... I se no problem with that. Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Twarlock solution is simple: Lock the mission gates to be used only by mission runner and/or his fleet. That's a simple solution, yes, but it's also 100% flawed. Above all, it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Nothing is 100% flawed. You are a mission runner: you see a problem. You are not a mission runner: you see no problem. Relative.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 16:24:00 - [207] Originally by: Mara Rinn You're trying to explain your sense of entitlement by describing your sense of entitlement. Quit it. The 'sense of entitlement' is created by all the effort made to generate the stuff you folks are stealing. If you can't get that, it's not my problem. Quote: If you can't salvage the wrecks before the scavangers arrive, that's your bad luck. As any real world military about the problems of looters and opportunists in war zones, and you'll have a better idea of the correct analogy to make. If you want to use that analogy, the common military response to real world looters is 'Shoot them on sight'. Allow the same for ninja 'salvagers' and I'm good. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 16:31:00 - [208] Originally by: Kahega Amielden you forgot the part where if you die, you magically respawn, and how if your ship gets destroyed the friendly insurance company with infinite money stocks repays you. Irrelevant to the discussion. Quote: It has nothing to do with what your agent permits you to do. The salvaging/looting laws are done by CONCORD, which is totally unrelated to your agent. CONCORD has stated that if you destroy a pirate ship, then intact modules are legally yours whereas the fried parts of the spaceship are not. CONCORD operates in Empire space by Empire sufferance. If a change is desired in Concord's regs, then it is the Empire politicians who put it to Concord, hash it out etc. They are all interconnected. Quote: Regardless...look at it from a gameplay perspective. CCP can change the mechanics to boost hisec missionrunning (Something that's obviously needed)...Or, they can encourage a totally new profession which many people find enjoyable and is very newbie-friendly. I am, just from the other side of the gameplay perspective - that of all the people who consider your 'fun' griefing (and don't even try to claim that people don't think so). As to being newbie friendly - that's not a gameplay benefit it's a gameplay imbalance. To wit: In order to make the level of ISK that a ninja can make (easily) in a mission hub there is very little investment required in ISK or training time. In order to make the same amount missioning or mining you need to expend months more time and hundreds (perhaps thousands) of orders of magnitude in ISK. Never mind the entire lack of risk for that huge paycheque. Your 'newbie friendly' profession is completely borked as it is far far too good in comparison to the other available professions. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Mel Lifera	Posted - 2009.08.19 16:40:00 - [209] Originally by: "Jarvis Hellstrom" The 'sense of entitlement' is created by all the effort made to generate the stuff you folks are stealing. If you can't get that, it's not my problem. Oh, we "get it". It's just that, as often in real life, the size of your sense of entitlement is laughably out of proportion to the amount of "all the effort", which involves clicking a couple of buttons and then going to make some coffee, perhaps reading the newspaper for a few minutes. Salvaging the wrecks - indeed, looting as well - requires an additional, seperate session of effort. If someone is able to put forth that effort before you, you lose. If YOU don't get it, that's not our problem - no matter how much you try to make it so. Originally by: "Jarvis Hellstrom" If you want to use that analogy, the common military response to real world looters is 'Shoot them on sight'. Shooting noncombatants? In today's real-world carebear theatre of war?
Mel Lifera	Posted - 2009.08.19 16:42:00 - [210] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Kahega Amielden you forgot the part where if you die, you magically respawn, and how if your ship gets destroyed the friendly insurance company with infinite money stocks repays you. Irrelevant to the discussion. Not if you're putting forth some alleged "risk" on your part as some or all of the reason you are more entitled to salvage the wrecks than anyone else.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 16:46:00 - [211] Originally by: Mel Lifera Nonetheless - are you saying the above scenario is something that, allowing the "real life" existence of the world of EVE, could not realistically happen? Would scanning people running missions be impossible for some reason? Would warping to them be impossible? Cleaning up the wrecks while they're otherwise occupied - undoable? Some sort of physical law preventing it from happening? Actually, in many cases yes. If you did any missioning you would know that deadspace areas are supposed to be areas in which you can literally hide entire military bases (See Portal to War) from simple scanning. If you can hide a giant base structure a ship should be either ridiculously hard or impossible. Quote: And would your wild west hero <snip> This isn't in any way part of the discussion Quote: You know how many missions we find where the loot and wrecks have been completely abandoned, period? Not a clue. Nor do I care. I have no issue at all with you salvaging abandoned wrecks. As long as they're really abandoned. Perhaps those missions you're so deprecating about 'abandoning' their wrecks were just trying to get the mission done before the bonus timer expired and were going to come back and salvage in a dedicated ship after so doing. Or maybe they are blitzing and want to do all the salvaging at once and have the site bookmarked. If they're truly abandoned, go nuts. This is why I support a limited time claim on wrecks and loot (I've advocated an hour - half their lifespan) expressly so that salvagers have something legit to do that isn't griefing. Quote: I truly shudder to think how all these mission runners had been surviving before the advent of wreckage and salvaging in EVE. There must've been NO billion-ISK MR's back then. That would be accurate, actually. Getting to a billion ISK used to be a huge milestone - something that very few did. Now a billion is almost chump change. So, yes, go back far enough and that's exactly the case. Quote: At any rate, "salvaging" is not a loophole at all. Mission runners have absolutely no problem with the mere concept of being able to pull a few mil out of a field of garbage This just makes me laugh so hard. A field of 'garbage' worth millions. Yeah. Some 'garbage'. Quote: I have absolutely no skill in archaeology yet, so I cannot use an analyzer module. But, I can scan down magnetometric sites like a charm! Logically, a mission runner who claims that "Ninja Salvaging" should be disallowed and is a "glitch" would be required to argue that I, as the person who first scans down the archaeological site, should be the only person allowed to harvest whatever item lies within - whether I have the appropriate module fitted or skill trained, or not. Sorry, no. For one thing - the mag site was not GENERATED by your scan. Like asteroids, it's out there for everyone and anyone to find. Not the same at all. Mission sites DO NOT EXIST and cannot be 'found' until the mission runner talks to their agent. The argument is spurious as these two things are not the same at all. Apples and Aircraft carriers. I don't think salvaging should be 'gone' just that it should be a proper mini-profession that makes sense and isn't immersion breaking. Right now, it makes no sense and is entirely immersion breaking. Not to mention game imbalancing (see the post above). May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 16:49:00 - [212] Originally by: Tippia And the key question here is: so what? Game balance. Makes no sense at all to run missions. With a much smaller investment in both time and ISK one can make the same amount with less risk. So what? It's completely unbalanced. Not to mention having all manner of other strikes against it like immersion breakage and grief play, but that one alone should be plenty. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Brock Dillinger	Posted - 2009.08.19 16:50:00 - [213] Originally by: Ufen Zakalwe Y'know with all these "CCP say it ain't broken answers" with regards to wreck ownership can I just point out that this is also their answer to the spectacularly messed up sound. There's a difference between f'd up code (the sound problems) and a mechanic working by design (what you guys see as a problem).
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 16:54:00 - [214] Originally by: g0ggalor a) Its not a glitch. Let me quotes CCP since you seem to have missed this point, "The salvage mechanics are working as intended." Tell me, how does that translate to "glitch" in your mind? CCP does NOT equal 'Perfect' or 'Never makes a mistake'. This is one of them. It makes no sense and is immersion breaking. Therefore a glitch. One made by a less than stellar CCP decision but a glitch nonetheless. These are the same folks who put out modules that let players break their own physics engine remember. They do great work overall but they are NOT perfect. Quote: b) How many missions do you get T2 salvage? Don't answer, since I know. Its none. Zip. Zero. Spoken like someone who never runs missions. Sorry to tell you but there are now a few elite T2 wrecks that show up occasionally in missions and lots in plexes and exploration sites (which also get ninjaed and so are just as relevant). Quote: You act like every piece of salvage is made of gold when really there are only a handful of salvage components that are worth much at all and the rest are barely as profitable as ammo drops. Not in the least - however it has been documented many times that the average total value of salvage exceeds the average value of loot so the point stands. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 16:57:00 - [215] Originally by: Mav'Lite in retort to Jarvis Hellstrom's very indepth post at the top of this page...... Well look at that. An entire post of ad hominem attacks that never even tries to address the subject matter or even make a point. That would be funny were it not so sad and childish. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Brock Dillinger	Posted - 2009.08.19 16:59:00 - [216] Originally by: Tippia Why is it such a horrible crime that other professions pay more than mission running? Because, well... it's just not fair, dang it!! stamps foot like an spoiled schoolgirl
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:01:00 - [217] Originally by: Mel Lifera Shooting noncombatants? In today's real-world carebear theatre of war? Yeah - it's called martial law and it does still happen. They just tend not to do it in front of the reporters. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Riedle	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:05:00 - [218] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Mel Lifera Shooting noncombatants? In today's real-world carebear theatre of war? Yeah - it's called martial law and it does still happen. They just tend not to do it in front of the reporters. I would love to ninja salvage and ninja loot your missions. Your tears are simply delicious.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:08:00 - [219] Quote: Sorry, no. For one thing - the mag site was not GENERATED by your scan. Like asteroids, it's out there for everyone and anyone to find. Not the same at all. Yes it is. The beacon exists, but the site doesn't actually spawn until someone warps in...and when someone warps in, it starts a 72 hour timer to despawn.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:08:00 - [220] Originally by: Brock Dillinger Originally by: Tippia Why is it such a horrible crime that other professions pay more than mission running? Because, well... it's just not fair, dang it!! stamps foot like an spoiled schoolgirl There will always be some pursuit that 'makes more' than others in any game. Currently in EVE it's trading. There's nothing wrong with something making more or less than mission running - however there does, in a game at least, need to be sensible balance to it. Salvaging, as currently enacted, can be done in dirt cheap ships by a virtually unskilled character and has the same return as a L4 mission runner, assuming both are done correctly by the player. However the L4 Runner requires a far greater investment in skills, standings and ISK to get that level of income and takes more risk (granted, not a lot more but more nonetheless). That makes it imbalanced as it currently exists. Enough so that rebalancing makes sense. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:11:00 - [221] Originally by: Riedle I would love to ninja salvage and ninja loot your missions. Your tears are simply delicious. On the rare occasions I run missions, I don't generally encounter ninjas. Should I do so, I generally have a suicide ship kicking around or will build one. The only communication you're likely to get from me in game will be from the mouth of my blaster cannon. But if you REALLY want to come salvage the good stuff that we sometimes get from complexes, by all means fly on down to Tenal where you can't hide behind Concord's skirts. That'll be delicious. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:12:00 - [222] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Yes it is. The beacon exists, but the site doesn't actually spawn until someone warps in...and when someone warps in, it starts a 72 hour timer to despawn. The beacon is all that's relevant to the argument. The rest is just a method to save on server calls to keep the game running faster. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Mel Lifera	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:20:00 - [223] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Actually, in many cases yes. If you did any missioning you would know that deadspace areas are supposed to be areas in which you can literally hide entire military bases (See Portal to War) from simple scanning. If you can hide a giant base structure a ship should be either ridiculously hard or impossible. Except the Player Guide ( http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Deadspace ) says that the only thing special about deadspaces is that you cannot warp inside them. Further, it mentions that all deadspaces have beacons near the entrance gates (which is true) which can be scanned for - that's how you find DED complexes after all; or have you forgotten about that segment of gameplay? Never mind - there's no way you can assert that we didn't scan down your ship just before you entered the deadspace. We did end up warping to the gate after all, not directly to you. Of course, the Player Guide also addresses the invasion of your mission for the purpose of salvaging wrecks ( http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Container_and_wreck_ownership ); but of course since it doesn't say what you want it to say, I'm sure you can find a way to rationalize it into irrelevance. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Quote: And would your wild west hero <snip> This isn't in any way part of the discussion Funny. You can create and use any analogy you want, but when somebody decides to extend or argue within it, you handwave. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Perhaps those missions you're so deprecating about 'abandoning' their wrecks were just trying to get the mission done before the bonus timer expired and were going to come back and salvage in a dedicated ship after so doing. Or maybe they are blitzing and want to do all the salvaging at once and have the site bookmarked. This is like going AFK while warping through two-dozen gates. You knowingly take the risk that when you RTK, you'll find yourself in a pod, or even a clone vat. Ninjas aren't a "brand new thing" and there isn't a single person who is unaware of their existence. You make wrecks, you take the chance someone else will nab them - and that chance is doubled or even trebled if you simply leave them for whatever reason. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom That would be accurate, actually. Getting to a billion ISK used to be a huge milestone - something that very few did. Now a billion is almost chump change. So, yes, go back far enough and that's exactly the case. If a billion is chump change, a couple mil from your missions won't make the difference you insist it does. Besides, we're not the ones who made a billion "chump change". You can thank ISK farmers for that. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Mission sites DO NOT EXIST and cannot be 'found' until the mission runner talks to their agent. The argument is spurious as these two things are not the same at all. Apples and Aircraft carriers. You're jumping in-and-out of "character" to suit your argument. The deadspaces that you're supposed to be visiting, according to "canon", are supposed to always have been there. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom I don't think salvaging should be 'gone' just that it should be a proper mini-profession that makes sense and isn't immersion breaking. You still haven't explained why it is immersion-breaking to encounter other players in a MMO. There's a whole franchise of little star trek games you can play if you want to be by yourself. Some of them even offer limited online interaction with other players only when you want it. Amazing!
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:45:00 - [224] Originally by: Mel Lifera Except the Player Guide says that the only thing special about deadspaces is that you cannot warp inside them. The EVE player guide has been woefully incomplete and missing critical data forever. Sorry, no help there. Quote: Further, it mentions that all deadspaces have beacons near the entrance gates (which is true) which can be scanned for - that's how you find DED complexes after all; or have you forgotten about that segment of gameplay? It's a generalization from a poorly written document and we both know it. The actual text in many missions makes reference to deadspace complexes being hard to find. Many missions center around an agent sending a capsuleer to 'find out what's out there' by flying into a complex or what have you. That is fact right out of actual gameplay not some dead document. It is a problem that the mission text and, in fact, the entire 'mission based universe' doesn't match how the game plays. It's something else that needs fixing (even more than the issue we're discussing). Most missions wouldn't happen if the NPCs played by the same rules as players. Quote: Never mind - there's no way you can assert that we didn't scan down your ship just before you entered the deadspace. We did end up warping to the gate after all, not directly to you. We both know that ain't how it works. Quote: Of course, the Player Guide also addresses the invasion of your mission for the purpose of salvaging wrecks <snip> The argument is not about what IS but about what it SHOULD be. We know the status quo. You like it, I say it should be changed. "It's how it currently is" does not address the point. We know that. Quote: Funny. You can create and use any analogy you want, but when somebody decides to extend or argue within it, you handwave. Not relevant is not relevant. If you kept to the discussion I wouldn't need to ignore irrelevant things you write. Quote: Ninjas aren't a "brand new thing" and there isn't a single person who is unaware of their existence. You make wrecks, you take the chance someone else will nab them - and that chance is doubled or even trebled if you simply leave them for whatever reason. That is pure rubbish. LOTS of new players don't know about ninja salvage. Hence all the incensed anti-ninja posts. EVE is a game with a steep learning curve. New folks who step in without a mentor are only rarely going to understand ninja salvage. Quote: If a billion is chump change, a couple mil from your missions won't make the difference you insist it does. Again, irrelevant to the point. The point is the percentage of value that salvage represents. Were that low, you'd have a point. It isn't and you don't. Quote: You're jumping in-and-out of "character" to suit your argument. The deadspaces that you're supposed to be visiting, according to "canon", are supposed to always have been there. The issue is complex and affects both immersion (in character) and game balance (out of character). In order to disucss completely 'jumping in and out' is required. Are you ever actually going to get to a point? Quote: You still haven't explained why it is immersion-breaking to encounter other players in a MMO. I see - you never actually HAD a real point and were just trying to muddy the issue with irrelevant text. "Immersion breaking" means 'in character' therefore it has nothing to do with whether there is a human behind the interface of the pixels the character is interacting with. You can make the argument that having more 'real players' involved in PVE is a good thing - perhaps even with some success, but it isn't called Player vs. ENVIRONMENT for nothing. What you're doing is shoving an element of PvP into the mix, which would be okay if you didn't hide behind the PVE elements in the game like Concord. Notice the entire lack of ninjas in null sec? May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
FOl2TY8 Revolutionary United Front Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.08.19 17:54:00 - [225] Wanted to add in a point, if you think that salvagers earn as much as a MR than you are seriously mistaken. It is in no way as profitable or more profitable than mission running or even mining. You don't like it because it interferes with your game play. Eve is setup so that it is very easy for anyone to interfere with someone else's game play. You don't like it, hell a lot of people don't like it but that's the way the game is. I love that aspect along with a lot of other people but because you don't, you feel entitled to demand a major game change. Is it really that bad that you have to expend so much time and energy into fighting it? I have had my mission salvaged maybe twice. Neither time did it bother me because I am immune to grief in a video game. I could be hauling 70 billion isk worth of crap get it blown up and it wouldn't matter. What you are trying to accomplish is remove an entire profession from Eve because you don't like it. ---------- This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve
Terminus Vindictus Caldari	Posted - 2009.08.19 18:03:00 - [226] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom You can make the argument that having more 'real players' involved in PVE is a good thing - perhaps even with some success, but it isn't called Player vs. ENVIRONMENT for nothing. What you're doing is shoving an element of PvP into the mix, which would be okay if you didn't hide behind the PVE elements in the game like Concord. There's no such thing as strictly PvE or PvP in EVE. It's all intertwined, and that's a fundamental difference that sets EVE apart from other games. As long as you're not willing to accept that simple reality, you won't enjoy this game. The entire point of the game is that you're not safe from other players regardless of where you are in the game. You insist on treating the different elements of the game separately, but they're not, and they shouldn't be. If that's what you want to change about EVE, then please do us a favor and move back to that other mythical MMO you mentioned earlier because we don't want what you're selling. Hello, I'm from the Government and I'm here to help.
Riedle	Posted - 2009.08.19 18:33:00 - [227] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Riedle I would love to ninja salvage and ninja loot your missions. Your tears are simply delicious. On the rare occasions I run missions, I don't generally encounter ninjas. Should I do so, I generally have a suicide ship kicking around or will build one. The only communication you're likely to get from me in game will be from the mouth of my blaster cannon. But if you REALLY want to come salvage the good stuff that we sometimes get from complexes, by all means fly on down to Tenal where you can't hide behind Concord's skirts. That'll be delicious. Or we can pretend that we all went through that and get to the part where you Dec me.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 19:09:00 - [228] Originally by: FOl2TY8 Wanted to add in a point, if you think that salvagers earn as much as a MR than you are seriously mistaken. It is in no way as profitable or more profitable than mission running or even mining. I don't personally have any idea how much they make - the particular claim was made by a ninja in another thread who claims 25 million per hour (I believe the system was Dodixie) which is far more than high sec mining and on a par with many L4 mission runners. As it doesn't actually benefit their argument to make such claims I see no reason to believe they lied about it although I suppose they could have. Quote: ou don't like it because it interferes with your game play. Incorrect. I don't like it because I believe it to be wrong and bad for the game. I've only ever personally encountered a single ninja and I drove him off without a lot of fuss. It isn't personal in the least. Quote: Eve is setup so that it is very easy for anyone to interfere with someone else's game play. You don't like it, hell a lot of people don't like it but that's the way the game is. I love that aspect along with a lot of other people but because you don't, you feel entitled to demand a major game change. Making salvagers go flashy is hardly a 'major' game change. I stand nothing to gain or lose from it either way, to be honest. Do you? Quote: Is it really that bad that you have to expend so much time and energy into fighting it? I have had my mission salvaged maybe twice. Neither time did it bother me because I am immune to grief in a video game. I could be hauling 70 billion isk worth of crap get it blown up and it wouldn't matter. What you are trying to accomplish is remove an entire profession from Eve because you don't like it. Not a bit of it. I happen to think that it has a very decided place, just not in its current incarnation where grief play is overly common. Quit putting words in my mouth. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 19:13:00 - [229] Originally by: Terminus Vindictus There's no such thing as strictly PvE or PvP in EVE. It's all intertwined, and that's a fundamental difference that sets EVE apart from other games. I agree with you and, in fact, referenced that very fact in my argument. Quote: <snip> then please do us a favor and move back to that other mythical MMO you mentioned earlier because we don't want what you're selling. Making salvagers flashy red, which increases player conflict, is somehow advocating reducing it? That's what I've been saying all along, along with some bonuses to the salvage profession (like sensible tractor beams and scannable wrecks) in order to balance the change. What is it with people thinking I want it gone entirely? I've never said that, it just needs some changes. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 19:15:00 - [230] Originally by: Riedle Or we can pretend that we all went through that and get to the part where you Dec me. Not a Tigers director and certainly not a senior operative of my Alliance so not really an option. You are also under some kind of illusion that I care enough about your existence to bother even if I was. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.19 19:20:00 - [231] This thread has gone both boring and circular. I've seen all the usual 'ninja' arguments and endured the usual empty threats and ad hominem attacks. As it has ceased to provide amusement and never really provided much in the way of thought provoking discussion, I believe I'm done with it. See you in the next interminable salvage thread. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Wongdong Minmatar	Posted - 2009.08.19 19:26:00 - [232] Originally by: Salliene I have come to agree with the mission runners. Salvaging a wreck that they made is totally wrong, I get that now. As part of turning over a new leaf I will now devote my life to assisting mission runners. I will come into their missions and destroy as many ships as possible for them. I know that because of the screwed up game mechanics that this will mean that I will most likely get the bounties that the mission runner would have gotten, but since I am saving them time I am sure they won't mind my assistance. lol^^^ this for sure,then you can salvage ur own wrecks and get bounties. i foresee ninja mission runner QQ threads if this takes up popularity.so skrew ninja salvaging,go for the big bucks. Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.19 19:30:00 - [233] This stupid whine....I mean thread still going? Originally by: Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
Skandrannon22	Posted - 2009.08.19 20:00:00 - [234] I was going to read all 8 pages of this... but after the first two were the same thing being said over and over, I say two things. 1. to the folks who say " stop running missions and play the game " .. really? that is playing the game, just like pvp, mining, building stuff, trying to scam, or whatever.. 2. To everyone on all 8 pages who said they are 'looking for someone to shoot them to start a fight' you need to understand how the game works. /beginlessononhowthegameworks If someone shoots them, they get Concordsploded. If "said ninja" was looking for a fight, they can grow a pair, and steal from the can, plain and simple. /endlessonhowthegameworks That is all -Skan
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.19 20:18:00 - [235] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 19/08/2009 20:18:23 Quote: As part of turning over a new leaf I will now devote my life to assisting mission runners. I will come into their missions and destroy as many ships as possible for them. I know that because of the screwed up game mechanics that this will mean that I will most likely get the bounties that the mission runner would have gotten, but since I am saving them time I am sure they won't mind my assistance. [Maelstrom, Bounty Ninja] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Power Diagnostic System I Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field I 100MN Afterburner II Shield Recharger II Ship Scanner I 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I, EMP L [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Hobgoblin I x20 Just wait for the rat to hit 3/4 or 1/2 structure and then hit F1.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.08.19 20:43:00 - [236] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Salvaging, as currently enacted, can be done in dirt cheap ships by a virtually unskilled character and has the same return as a L4 mission runner, assuming both are done correctly by the player. However the L4 Runner requires a far greater investment in skills, standings and ISK to get that level of income and takes more risk (granted, not a lot more but more nonetheless). That makes it imbalanced as it currently exists. The balance is the same as for trading: missions involve zero competetiveness — it makes complete sense that a high amount of effort is required for that advantage; salvaging is competetive, so the cost of entry is much lower. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Mel Lifera	Posted - 2009.08.19 20:45:00 - [237] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom On the rare occasions I run missions, I don't generally encounter ninjas. Should I do so, I generally have a suicide ship kicking around or will build one. The only communication you're likely to get from me in game will be from the mouth of my blaster cannon. Well ain't that precious, and about time we got to the "lol 1v1 I can tottaly pwn u" reaction, albeit one with some nicer-than-usual duds.
Mel Lifera	Posted - 2009.08.19 21:10:00 - [238] Edited by: Mel Lifera on 19/08/2009 21:12:09 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom It's a generalization from a poorly written document and we both know it...That is fact right out of actual gameplay not some dead document. Exactly as I said - rationalization. Although I do find it curious that you continue to play this game, what with its "dead" bad documentation, horrifically overpowered noobs, and being run by a company that can't admit that a minprofession they designed and intended to work the way it does is really an exploit, and they just don't know it. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom It is a problem that the mission text and, in fact, the entire 'mission based universe' doesn't match how the game plays. It's something else that needs fixing (even more than the issue we're discussing). Most missions wouldn't happen if the NPCs played by the same rules as players. And yet other players showing up in the missions is what ruins the "immersion" for you. This gets better and better. I also love the "doesn't match how the game plays" statement, considering you tried to override my earlier argument with "well the mission text says so, that settles it". Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom The argument is not about what IS but about what it SHOULD be. We know the status quo. You like it, I say it should be changed. "It's how it currently is" does not address the point. We know that. Then write a petition, and accept whatever answer you receive with a little grace - even if it may serve to deflate your zeppelin-sized ego. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Not relevant is not relevant. If you kept to the discussion I wouldn't need to ignore irrelevant things you write. Wow, I bet you can win whole battles just by saying "I won this battle" in local. Connection with reality not required. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom LOTS of new players don't know about ninja salvage. Hence all the incensed anti-ninja posts. EVE is a game with a steep learning curve. New folks who step in without a mentor are only rarely going to understand ninja salvage. Then it's fortunate these poor new players aren't the ones running the level 4 missions we salvage - wouldn't you agree? Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Again, irrelevant to the point. The point is the percentage of value that salvage represents. Were that low, you'd have a point. It isn't and you don't. Begging your pardon - but the status quo doesn't need to have a "point", because it already exists. All it has to do is rebut the misshapen arguments for change that you call your own "points" - something that is easier to do with you than some others who've argued in these forums, I might add. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom The issue is complex and affects both immersion (in character) and game balance (out of character). In order to disucss completely 'jumping in and out' is required. Are you ever actually going to get to a point? Refer to above, and the fact that your "immersion" argument has already been exposed as spurious. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom You can make the argument that having more 'real players' involved in PVE is a good thing - perhaps even with some success, but it isn't called Player vs. ENVIRONMENT for nothing. What you're doing is shoving an element of PvP into the mix, which would be okay if you didn't hide behind the PVE elements in the game like Concord. Your arguments being divided between in-and-out-of character wouldn't be a problem, except that you're doing it in subarguments over individual points. You make an in-character argument, I make an in-character rebuttal, and you resort to some out-of-character rationalizing as a counter. Your arguments have no logical flow. And no - what we're doing is willingly and gladly allowing the GAME DESIGN to gently place us together in the same space as you. Howdy, neighbor!
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.19 21:17:00 - [239] Please explain to me how it is immersion breaking? its immersion in the higest level i feel, you get to really pump your emotions int o the game! And where is my credit for that very nice Carebear for Ninja Salvagers rights post I made... I like how you just skipped over a honest MR (never Ninjaed in my life) thinking it a fair game mechanic... Keep harping at the Ninjas, they are not the only ones that support the harshness of eve! Signed a Carebear (i'll still sing this song to any Ninjas that come into my mission! Be warned! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNm5Hqow78I )
Mel Lifera	Posted - 2009.08.19 21:21:00 - [240] Originally by: Mad Maulkin Please explain to me how it is immersion breaking? its immersion in the higest level i feel, you get to really pump your emotions int o the game! And where is my credit for that very nice Carebear for Ninja Salvagers rights post I made... I like how you just skipped over a honest MR (never Ninjaed in my life) thinking it a fair game mechanic... Keep harping at the Ninjas, they are not the only ones that support the harshness of eve! Signed a Carebear (i'll still sing this song to any Ninjas that come into my mission! Be warned! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNm5Hqow78I ) Dear Carebear: I do apologize. Arguments from reason are always, always welcome, whomever gives them. You are a beacon for others to follow.
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.19 21:31:00 - [241] Originally by: Mel Lifera Dear Carebear: I do apologize. Arguments from reason are always, always welcome, whomever gives them. You are a beacon for others to follow. Well now your pushing it, i just wanted to be quoted once... But to be serious, i might not have been so serious before, cause this thread tends towardt the rediculous at times, i fully support the mechaninsm as it works now... how else can you go around and salvage the wrecks in roid belts that miners have just left behind... I perhaps don't support Ninjas in general, at least those that visit me, but then i don't like gangkers and the idiot that podded me either, but i can't really complain now can I, its the way the game is, and in this case, CCP has made so many comments that it is intentioal that is hard to make the argument that its a bug and they are covering it up... This was very thougth through, and intentionaly implemented, or else they would have but it under the aggro flag banner... So at least don't try to make it into a CCP screwup, conspiracy or some other similar claim, its sounds slightly rediculous...
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.20 05:05:00 - [242] Jarvis, the edit button, learn to use it.
Riedle	Posted - 2009.08.20 16:02:00 - [243] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Riedle Or we can pretend that we all went through that and get to the part where you Dec me. Not a Tigers director and certainly not a senior operative of my Alliance so not really an option. You are also under some kind of illusion that I care enough about your existence to bother even if I was. That is unfortunate. I wanted to pod you repeatedly for your forum whines on salvaging.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.20 18:58:00 - [244] Originally by: Riedle That is unfortunate. I wanted to pod you repeatedly for your forum whines on salvaging. You know - I promised myself I wasn't bothering anymore, but this is just too much fun to pass up: Character: Riedle Lifetime kills 7 Lifetime losses 26 Total pods killed 0 Taken from here: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Riedle Threat=empty
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.20 19:42:00 - [245] I thought you were done with this thread? Why do people never finish when they say they will finish? Originally by: Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.20 19:53:00 - [246] Originally by: THE L0CK I thought you were done with this thread? Why do people never finish when they say they will finish? <shrug> It's called changing one's mind. People do that sometimes in response to changing stimuli. To do otherwise is hopelessly rigid. Not wasting my breath discussing the original topic anymore, though, that horse has been beaten to glue and the principals ceased communicating meaningful data long since. I just thought it would be fun to shine the light of reality on someone talking big and trying to be scary who entirely lacked the chops to back it up. Call it a public service. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.20 20:09:00 - [247] So the translation is that you've realized that you were losing the argument due to valid information provided by CCP themselves and are now attempting to sidetrack the thread as a scapegoat. Gotcha Originally by: Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.20 20:34:00 - [248] Quote: You know - I promised myself I wasn't bothering anymore, but this is just too much fun to pass up: Character: Riedle Lifetime kills 7 Lifetime losses 26 Total pods killed 0 Taken from here: Did you even read? His losses were all either pods or rifters, thrashers, and stabbers...with one Wreath and I think a Probe. The most extreme loss was a hurricane. His kills include AFs, HACs, BS, one SB, and one Rifter.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.20 20:35:00 - [249] Originally by: THE L0CK So the translation is that you've realized that you were losing the argument due to valid information provided by CCP themselves and are now attempting to sidetrack the thread as a scapegoat. Gotcha Please don't even attempt to put words in my mouth, you've not the vocabularly for it. I'm just tired of beating my head against the wall of invincible stupidity. It's one of the hazards of rolling around in the mud with the swine, I suppose. You both get filthy, but the pigs enjoy it. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.20 20:43:00 - [250] Originally by: Kahega Amielden His kills include AFs, HACs, BS, one SB, and one Rifter. Why yes, I do read. None of the kills were solo that I could find and you neglect to mention that the primary enemy kill type were battleship hulls. In other words, much like the TEARS KB, he and his friends are very very good at ganking PvE fit ships. This is not an accomplishment to trumpet to the heavens although I expect you'd like it to be. In fact, it's lame as hell. He has only one loss that wasn't in high sec as well (I believe Old Man's Star is lowsec, not certain) although I didn't bother with an exhaustive check of his older losses. Clearly we have different definitions of what makes a pilot competent in combat. I don't count ganking the helpless as terribly frightening. None of which changes the fact that his threat was podkilling - something he has never yet managed to do. Threat still = empty By the way, Kahega - I'm not writing any of this for you. Just to be clear, this is for those who are reading who might actually believe some of the BS that the ninjas throw around about being scary in PvP. I'm not a huge fan of KB in general but they do tell the truth in this case. You aren't combat pilots you're schoolyard bullies. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
WTFAMILOOKINGAT	Posted - 2009.08.20 21:14:00 - [251] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: THE L0CK So the translation is that you've realized that you were losing the argument due to valid information provided by CCP themselves and are now attempting to sidetrack the thread as a scapegoat. Gotcha Please don't even attempt to put words in my mouth, you've not the vocabularly for it. I'm just tired of beating my head against the wall of invincible stupidity. It's one of the hazards of rolling around in the mud with the swine, I suppose. You both get filthy, but the pigs enjoy it. Oh, I see. Anyone with a different opinion is stupid and a pig. Nice.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.20 21:15:00 - [252] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: THE L0CK So the translation is that you've realized that you were losing the argument due to valid information provided by CCP themselves and are now attempting to sidetrack the thread as a scapegoat. Gotcha Please don't even attempt to put words in my mouth, you've not the vocabularly for it. I'm just tired of beating my head against the wall of invincible stupidity. It's one of the hazards of rolling around in the mud with the swine, I suppose. You both get filthy, but the pigs enjoy it. Well no need to take out your butthurt feelings on me like that, I'm just calling it as I see it. You brought your points to the table and in the end lost so you backed out in true MR fashion, but now you are back trying to sidetrack the thread with name calling and posturing. Also just because another opinion differs from yours it does not make it wrong. Little lessons in life. Originally by: Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.08.20 21:20:00 - [253] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom You aren't combat pilots you're schoolyard bullies. I am going to put something like this in my bio (or has my title), right under "Chicks dig HAC pilots": I'm not a combat pilot, I'm a schoolyard bully! ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.08.20 21:54:00 - [254] Originally by: WTFAMILOOKINGAT Oh, I see. Anyone with a different opinion is stupid and a pig. Nice. Not a bit of it. Just those who refuse to discourse courteously and act childishly. I have agreed to disagree with ninjas on occasion - but they were courteous and well mannered in their points of view so that was simple. Interestingly one of them is also the CEO of Suddenly Ninjas. I still have a lot of respect for her, despite disagreeing with her. Just not the rest of these buffoons. It's not their difference of opinion, it's their childish manner of expressing it and their absolutely pathetic means of 'discussion' (which reeks very much of something that belongs in the 6th grade). And now I really am out as this has become entirely pointless and I'm quite beginning to lose my temper with some of the ad hominems and out and out lies from people who don't even know me. Serves me right for rolling in the mud I suppose. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Riedle	Posted - 2009.08.20 21:57:00 - [255] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Riedle That is unfortunate. I wanted to pod you repeatedly for your forum whines on salvaging. You know - I promised myself I wasn't bothering anymore, but this is just too much fun to pass up: Character: Riedle Lifetime kills 7 Lifetime losses 26 Total pods killed 0 Taken from here: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Riedle Threat=empty Great. I'll be expecting the war dec in 24hrs. kthxbai
Riedle	Posted - 2009.08.20 21:58:00 - [256] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: THE L0CK I thought you were done with this thread? Why do people never finish when they say they will finish? <shrug> It's called changing one's mind. People do that sometimes in response to changing stimuli. To do otherwise is hopelessly rigid. Not wasting my breath discussing the original topic anymore, though, that horse has been beaten to glue and the principals ceased communicating meaningful data long since. I just thought it would be fun to shine the light of reality on someone talking big and trying to be scary who entirely lacked the chops to back it up. Call it a public service. I wasn't talking scary. I wanted to kills yer internet spaceships for being an asshat on the forums. :) then maybe have anal sex with your corpse if I were so lucky. (in game)
Riedle	Posted - 2009.08.20 22:06:00 - [257] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: WTFAMILOOKINGAT Oh, I see. Anyone with a different opinion is stupid and a pig. Nice. Not a bit of it. Just those who refuse to discourse courteously and act childishly. I have agreed to disagree with ninjas on occasion - but they were courteous and well mannered in their points of view so that was simple. Interestingly one of them is also the CEO of Suddenly Ninjas. I still have a lot of respect for her, despite disagreeing with her. Just not the rest of these buffoons. It's not their difference of opinion, it's their childish manner of expressing it and their absolutely pathetic means of 'discussion' (which reeks very much of something that belongs in the 6th grade). And now I really am out as this has become entirely pointless and I'm quite beginning to lose my temper with some of the ad hominems and out and out lies from people who don't even know me. Serves me right for rolling in the mud I suppose. oohh.. you are right. I should mind my manners. Your uber skills. I should know my place. ISK Lost 838,918,863 ISK Destroyed 1,403,803,917 Success Ratio 2:1 Average ISK/Kill 175,475,490 Get ETCs to replace Lifetime damage inflicted 37,758 Lifetime damage recieved 150,419 Success Ratio 0:1 Damage inflicted last 7 days 0 Damage taken last 7 days 0 Kills last 7 days 0 Losses last 7 days 0 Favourite prey Heavy Assault Ship Ships lost most frequently Capsule Total pods killed looks like we would be a good match, n'est ce pas?
Cyberin Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.20 22:16:00 - [258] I can't find my cookies, has anyone seen them rolling around in here? Hands Off, My Loots!
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.20 22:24:00 - [259] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: WTFAMILOOKINGAT Oh, I see. Anyone with a different opinion is stupid and a pig. Nice. Not a bit of it. Just those who refuse to discourse courteously and act childishly. I have agreed to disagree with ninjas on occasion - but they were courteous and well mannered in their points of view so that was simple. Interestingly one of them is also the CEO of Suddenly Ninjas. I still have a lot of respect for her, despite disagreeing with her. Just not the rest of these buffoons. It's not their difference of opinion, it's their childish manner of expressing it and their absolutely pathetic means of 'discussion' (which reeks very much of something that belongs in the 6th grade). And now I really am out as this has become entirely pointless and I'm quite beginning to lose my temper with some of the ad hominems and out and out lies from people who don't even know me. Serves me right for rolling in the mud I suppose. Always makes me smile when people talk about how others act in a childish manner and then resort to it themselves with the name calling. In fact your last two paragraphs completely contradict each other. Also taking bets now on if he comes back for a third time. Place your bets! Originally by: Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
TheMaster42 Lobster Gazelle Unicorn	Posted - 2009.08.20 23:25:00 - [260] Edited by: TheMaster42 on 20/08/2009 23:28:42 This issue is so clear-cut. Mission runners want this change; it only makes sense. Ninja salvagers want this change, too, but it's obvious they're lying because if this were to come about, they'd all be exploding all the time by the hundreds. All of Jarkvis' posts are so clear and correct, I don't see why there's any discussion on the matter at all. It's clear he's dealt with dozens of ninja salvagers and handily gotten them blown up or driven them off or otherwise turned the tables. I'd argue for salvaging to become a flaggable offense based only on his arguments. It's very likely CCP is lying about wanting this change, and it's just a holdover from bad technology. Remember they changed warp to zero not because it made the game better/worse, but because their servers were burdened from people copying bookmarks all the time. I welcome this change with all my heart, and await its inevitable arrival. Nothing in Eve could possibly stop my powerful, mission running, faction-fit Golem as it is essentially invincible, and so I deserve the chance to drive off all the nasty ninja salvagers I can all day.
llhloiug	Posted - 2009.08.20 23:28:00 - [261] I agree that there should be a consequence for people stealing salvage just as there is for loot. I don't understand what the intellectual disconnect is and why this hasn't been fixed.
TheMaster42 Lobster Gazelle Unicorn	Posted - 2009.08.20 23:29:00 - [262] Originally by: llhloiug I agree that there should be a consequence for people stealing salvage just as there is for loot. I don't understand what the intellectual disconnect is and why this hasn't been fixed. lol cool
Mel Lifera	Posted - 2009.08.21 00:33:00 - [263] Edited by: Mel Lifera on 21/08/2009 00:33:44 Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Kahega Amielden His kills include AFs, HACs, BS, one SB, and one Rifter. Why yes, I do read. None of the kills were solo that I could find and you neglect to mention that the primary enemy kill type were battleship hulls. In other words, much like the TEARS KB, he and his friends are very very good at ganking PvE fit ships. Obviously, because nobody ever uses battleships, heavy assault cruisers, or stealth bombers for PvP. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom This is not an accomplishment to trumpet to the heavens although I expect you'd like it to be. In fact, it's lame as hell. He has only one loss that wasn't in high sec as well (I believe Old Man's Star is lowsec, not certain) although I didn't bother with an exhaustive check of his older losses. You sir, are a bountiful and unappreciated resource to the EVE community. Without you, nobody would understand how the game is supposed to be played, and what constitutes "good play" versus "bad play". Hint for all new players: ignore the "dead, poor" documentation, and anything said by the people who actually created the game. Jarvis is Your Man. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Clearly we have different definitions of what makes a pilot competent in combat. I don't count ganking the helpless as terribly frightening. By "we", of course, is meant "you" and "everybody who isn't you". Most of the time, when somebody dies in PvP as a result of a poorly-fit-for-PvP ship, fault is assigned to the pilot thereof. But in your special version of reality, it's the attacking pilots' fault; after all, as mentioned, nobody PvPs in a battleship or a stealth bomber, so they should've realized they were dealing with a "helpless" PvE'er and...let him shoot at them without consequence, I suppose. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom None of which changes the fact that his threat was podkilling - something he has never yet managed to do. Maybe, like me, he's discerning about who he podkills. Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom By the way, Kahega - I'm not writing any of this for you. snicker Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Just to be clear, this is for those who are reading who might actually believe some of the BS that the ninjas throw around about being scary in PvP. I'm not a huge fan of KB in general but they do tell the truth in this case. You aren't combat pilots you're schoolyard bullies. Su, no? And your debating points and tactics have been thoroughly wet-willied, wedgied, and depantsed in this thread. Lunch money. Now.
Mel Lifera	Posted - 2009.08.21 00:42:00 - [264] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: WTFAMILOOKINGAT Oh, I see. Anyone with a different opinion is stupid and a pig. Nice. Not a bit of it. Just those who refuse to discourse courteously and act childishly. I have agreed to disagree with ninjas on occasion - but they were courteous and well mannered in their points of view so that was simple. Interestingly one of them is also the CEO of Suddenly Ninjas. I still have a lot of respect for her, despite disagreeing with her. Just not the rest of these buffoons. It's not their difference of opinion, it's their childish manner of expressing it and their absolutely pathetic means of 'discussion' (which reeks very much of something that belongs in the 6th grade). And now I really am out as this has become entirely pointless and I'm quite beginning to lose my temper with some of the ad hominems and out and out lies from people who don't even know me. Serves me right for rolling in the mud I suppose.
Menilkir	Posted - 2009.08.24 13:54:00 - [265] Phew, after finally reaching the end of the 8 page eyeball-**** that was this thread, I must say I do find these debates quite interesting :P Been playing EVE for just over a year now, starting on lvl 4's now and finding it quite good, not a huge fan of PvP as I tend to suck, perhaps at some point in the future once I feel more confident in playing. (I'm from a WoW background and as such find EVE both more complex and rewarding). I think a good solution would be to be able to scan for wreaks as opposed to players, and make wreaks randomly occur (but not too much ofc) this way a lot of the time 'Ninja's' could find mission site's where the MR had been and left (for example, up until last week I couldn't salvage and was therefore leaving all my wreaks after looting them). On the off-chance that they warp in to an ongoing mission site where a MR is currently doing the mission, they its up to the 'Ninja' to decide if he wants to upset the MR by salvaging wreaks in front of him, or leave him to it and find another site, failing that he could even ask if they intend to salvage? I know ppl will say 'he doesn't need to ask, its part of the game' and yes this is true, but at the same time I don't have to give my seat up on the bus for elderly ppl, its all about showing a bit of courtesy and respect, something that seem to be lacking in both MMOG's and their relevant discussion forums. -Menilkir
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.08.24 16:04:00 - [266] Originally by: Menilkir its all about showing a bit of courtesy and respect, something that seem to be lacking in both MMOG's and their relevant discussion forums. -Menilkir Courtesy and respect? In this game? I don't think so. At least not in High Sec. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.24 16:06:00 - [267] Quote: its all about showing a bit of courtesy and respect, something that seem to be lacking in both MMOG's and their relevant discussion forums. I once played starcraft and kindly asked my enemy to not attack me. The discourteous bastard did anyway
Zed Jackelope Insert Obscure Latin Name	Posted - 2009.08.24 16:43:00 - [268] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Originally by: Riedle That is unfortunate. I wanted to pod you repeatedly for your forum whines on salvaging. You know - I promised myself I wasn't bothering anymore, but this is just too much fun to pass up: Character: Riedle Lifetime kills 7 Lifetime losses 26 Total pods killed 0 Taken from here: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Riedle Threat=empty Using your own logic: Lifetime kills 8 Lifetime losses 22 You're as equally dangerous.. i.e. not. Love your solo kills btw. Originally by: Awesome Possum Ban in place for using inappropriate language and evading the profanity filter. When Will I be able to post again? 09/03/09
FOl2TY8 Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.24 16:52:00 - [269] Originally by: Jarvis Hellstrom Not a bit of it. Just those who refuse to discourse courteously and act childishly. I have agreed to disagree with ninjas on occasion - but they were courteous and well mannered in their points of view so that was simple. Interestingly one of them is also the CEO of Suddenly Ninjas. I still have a lot of respect for her, despite disagreeing with her. Just not the rest of these buffoons. It's not their difference of opinion, it's their childish manner of expressing it and their absolutely pathetic means of 'discussion' (which reeks very much of something that belongs in the 6th grade). And now I really am out as this has become entirely pointless and I'm quite beginning to lose my temper with some of the ad hominems and out and out lies from people who don't even know me. Serves me right for rolling in the mud I suppose. People that use "buffoon" in a sentence get nervous around the opposite sex, c/d? ---------- This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.25 10:16:00 - [270] Edited by: Mad Maulkin on 25/08/2009 10:17:10 Originally by: llhloiug I agree that there should be a consequence for people stealing salvage just as there is for loot. I don't understand what the intellectual disconnect is and why this hasn't been fixed. But it is, you get flagged for stealing salvage just as you would anything else... stealing is illegal...
Riedle	Posted - 2009.08.25 16:29:00 - [271] Jarvis Hellstrom CANT ANCER
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:23:00 - [272] IMO, CCP should allow mission runners to attack the freeloaders. That would probably make them think twice before going in to your mission. Unless of course they are looking for a fight to begin with and salvaging is their second priority. Or maybe CCP could set up a public welfare system for those who are too lazy or too ignorant to work for it themselves. Someone who goes and takes stuff that they did not earn in a game where it is easy enough to earn yourself, probably has the same issues in RL. It's sad when you are a failure in a game as well as RL. Where do you go from there? Why not take your freeloading behind out to where Concord won't intervene and scan down some of those MR's? We know why, and so do you. You may actually have to put some effort in to it, that is if you can keep from getting podded constantly. It is CCP's fault for condoning it and not allowing us to fight for what we earn. I'm just looking for a good reason to quit spending useless money on Eve accounts anyway. Too many other games out there. I doubt that I am alone with that thought. Some people play Eve with only one profession that they enjoy doing. And they use those proceeds to fund other little sideline Eve hobbies like exploration, etc... After experiencing a number of different career paths in Eve, I have found that mission running is the one that I enjoy doing above all the others that I have tried. Mission running is why I choose to pay my little $30 per month to CCP. Maybe it is not enjoyable to me any more if the freeloaders can just come in and take the stuff that I worked for and then taunt me while doing so. This is stuff "I" worked for by re-investing in bigger and better ships and building standings with the agents to get the good missions. Months and months of tedious effort to finally get to solo level 4 missions where it finally starts to pay off only to be slapped in the face by freeloaders AND CCP. The enjoyment vanishes pretty fast when you feel ripped off and the jerk private chats you telling you that if you shoot him Concord will shoot you, BTW, nice salvage dude. No, I don't want to just shrug it off and let them feed on my work. Being "part of the game mechanics" is not a good enough excuse for me to lay down like a !@#$% and let them scavenge it. I do have a choice. CCP won't miss my few bucks every month. Defined for the freeloaders (Condoning) Definition: be willing to overlook something: to regard something that is considered immoral or wrong in a tolerant way, without criticizing it or feeling strongly about it. But these are just my opinions. Opinions are like !@#$%^&*, everybody has one. There's my 2 cents. Cheers .
FOl2TY8 Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:46:00 - [273] Edited by: FOl2TY8 on 25/08/2009 19:56:37 Originally by: Roozter Or maybe CCP could set up a public welfare system for those who are too lazy or too ignorant to work for it themselves. Someone who goes and takes stuff that they did not earn in a game where it is easy enough to earn yourself, probably has the same issues in RL. It's sad when you are a failure in a game as well as RL. Where do you go from there? I'm gonna go fist a puppy and think about what you said. BTW is this your main? *edit Actually I'm going to go WATCH someone fist a puppy. I'm too lazy to do it on my own. ---------- This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve
Izztyrr Maemtor Caldari Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.25 19:48:00 - [274] Edited by: Izztyrr Maemtor on 25/08/2009 19:49:44 Edited by: Izztyrr Maemtor on 25/08/2009 19:48:46 Originally by: Roozter IMO, CCP should allow mission runners to attack the freeloaders. That would probably make them think twice before going in to your mission. Unless of course they are looking for a fight to begin with and salvaging is their second priority. Or maybe CCP could set up a public welfare system for those who are too lazy or too ignorant to work for it themselves. Someone who goes and takes stuff that they did not earn in a game where it is easy enough to earn yourself, probably has the same issues in RL. It's sad when you are a failure in a game as well as RL. Where do you go from there? Why not take your freeloading behind out to where Concord won't intervene and scan down some of those MR's? We know why, and so do you. You may actually have to put some effort in to it, that is if you can keep from getting podded constantly. It is CCP's fault for condoning it and not allowing us to fight for what we earn. I'm just looking for a good reason to quit spending useless money on Eve accounts anyway. Too many other games out there. I doubt that I am alone with that thought. Some people play Eve with only one profession that they enjoy doing. And they use those proceeds to fund other little sideline Eve hobbies like exploration, etc... After experiencing a number of different career paths in Eve, I have found that mission running is the one that I enjoy doing above all the others that I have tried. Mission running is why I choose to pay my little $30 per month to CCP. Maybe it is not enjoyable to me any more if the freeloaders can just come in and take the stuff that I worked for and then taunt me while doing so. This is stuff "I" worked for by re-investing in bigger and better ships and building standings with the agents to get the good missions. Months and months of tedious effort to finally get to solo level 4 missions where it finally starts to pay off only to be slapped in the face by freeloaders AND CCP. The enjoyment vanishes pretty fast when you feel ripped off and the jerk private chats you telling you that if you shoot him Concord will shoot you, BTW, nice salvage dude. No, I don't want to just shrug it off and let them feed on my work. Being "part of the game mechanics" is not a good enough excuse for me to lay down like a !@#$% and let them scavenge it. I do have a choice. CCP won't miss my few bucks every month. Defined for the freeloaders (Condoning) Definition: be willing to overlook something: to regard something that is considered immoral or wrong in a tolerant way, without criticizing it or feeling strongly about it. But these are just my opinions. Opinions are like !@#$%^&*, everybody has one. There's my 2 cents. Cheers . can i haz ur stuffz
Willy Pete Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:20:00 - [275] Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Edited by: Izztyrr Maemtor on 25/08/2009 20:02:18 Originally by: Roozter I'm just looking for a good reason to quit spending useless money on Eve accounts anyway. Too many other games out there. can i haz ur stuffz The proper way of requesting this would be - "May I have your stuff, please." That said, Can I has ur stuffz, Roozter?
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.25 20:21:00 - [276] Originally by: Roozter Why not take your freeloading behind out to where Concord won't intervene and scan down some of those MR's? We know why, and so do you. Yep. Same reason you don't run level 4s in lowsec.
BlindBleu Gallente BOOMers Inc	Posted - 2009.08.25 21:57:00 - [277] Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Edited by: Izztyrr Maemtor on 25/08/2009 20:02:18 Originally by: Roozter I'm just looking for a good reason to quit spending useless money on Eve accounts anyway. Too many other games out there. can i haz ur stuffz FAIL The Correct Method/Way is: "Stand and Deliver" Don't forget to have your weapons pointed at the coach and coachman. Every Plan lasts until the first shot is fired. "I have a Plan, a good one." Generally means it is not. If Yellow it get a Fellow Killed
Willy Pete Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:01:00 - [278] Originally by: BlindBleu Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Edited by: Izztyrr Maemtor on 25/08/2009 20:02:18 Originally by: Roozter I'm just looking for a good reason to quit spending useless money on Eve accounts anyway. Too many other games out there. can i haz ur stuffz FAIL The Correct Method/Way is: "Stand and Deliver" Don't forget to have your weapons pointed at the coach and coachman. Sort of similar to "Yo, *****, 500 million or the CNR pops like a pinatta"
JordanParey Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.25 22:18:00 - [279] Originally by: Roozter Angry Rant. It's amusing that you think you need definitions to make your point- we aren't stupid. So, as much as I would love to troll, like some of my corpmates (watch it, guys...don't getoverexcited) I won't. Firstly, CCP does allow mission runners to attack. It's called the "aggression timer". An astounding amount of ninjas actually DO loot and salvage. You have fifteen minutes to get at us. If you don't use that time wisely, not our fault (ok, ok, docking would be OUR fault, but a good amount of us WANT you to shoot back ) Secondly, your attitude is completely wrong. CCP has sanctioned salvaging as a profession several times, and does not appear to want to change it. Take issue with them instead of us. Your classing us as "too lazy or ignorant to work for it ourselves" is actually not true. To be a good ninja, it often takes a good investment of time and money (3 weeks and a T1 Astrometrics frigate to be "alright", 4-5 weeks to get into a CovOps frigate, 15-20m to rig and fit it, and 30m or so for Sisters scan probes, launcher not included.) We actually DO work for our ISK. Scanning isn't as easy as it was before, I used to just drop a probe at the sun and have at it till I got a green hit. Now, probe placement is key, as are the skills and the equipment we use. Your thinking that we are lazy and ignorant in real life is also untrue. Our former CEO, Tchell Dahhn, ran his own IT-type company or something IIRC (and has a family.) Our current CEO, Velocity Prime, is a former Marine and has HIS own family. Many members of our corp have jobs in IT-related fields, one man in our alliance is a construction worker that works 12-hour shifts, and I am personally a college student doing Army ROTC. Tell me, if you are so productive, what do you do for a living? We have no problem with your mission running, it's what keeps us afloat. What you decide to do with your time in Eve is your business, what we decide to do with our time in Eve is ours. You do have choices, you are correct. You can: -Ignore us and move on to another mission; -Move to a different system; -Start missioning for another corp or faction somewhere else; -Get a Marauder (Personally, I am close to these myself); -Work on getting more DPS out of your ship so you finish faster (I can name some implants if you need ideas); -Become one of us yourself: The best way to combat your enemy is with knowledge, we know a lot of ways to stay under the radar; -fit ECCM to a spare slot on your ship so you are harder to scan; -Use drones only when you need them. There. To answer one last thing, there is pretty much only one reason why we don't infest lowsec and 0.0 as well: It isn't as profitable. Would you waste your time doing something that wasn't worthwhile, if you were trying to buy a new ship or fittings? -JordanParey Suddenly Ninjas veteran (1 year+) P.S. Before you try flaming me, look me up ingame. Check my corp title, then look at my standings and what agents like me. You'll be surprised.
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.25 23:30:00 - [280] Edited by: Roozter on 25/08/2009 23:33:42 Sounds like I struck a nerve Who is whining now? (whine) Defined: 1. to utter a low, usually nasal, complaining cry or sound, as from uneasiness, discontent, peevishness, etc.: The puppies were whining from hunger. 2. to snivel or complain in a peevish, self-pitying way: He is always whining about his problems. My original post was merely showing the freeloaders the same consideration and/or respect that they show the MR's while pillaging their stuff and then bragging about it in local AND on this forum. Just an observation: If you are one of those freeloaders and you reside in the USA, I'll bet money you voted for Obama. If not, you missed a good opportunity to jump on the freeloader bandwagon. I can't imagine a US soldier who is actually a liberal. But then I can't imagine a US soldier who is a griefer either. Go figure. But I do thank you for your RL commitment. Yeah sure, you can all split my stuff. Hey wait, you're already doing it. Whatever is left when I stop playing Eve, I will donate to a worthy cause like, well, I can't think of one right now but I'm sure there are a few. Cheers .
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.25 23:46:00 - [281] You're hilarious. Wrecks do not belong to you any more than the chocolate bars at the Hershey factory belong to the people who work there. Not that being a "freeloader" is bad given that it's a video game and as such real-life morality doesn't play into it.
Izztyrr Maemtor Caldari Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.26 00:13:00 - [282] Originally by: Roozter If you are one of those freeloaders and you reside in the USA, I'll bet money you voted for Obama. I'm a Republican and I'll be you money. You can't say this about yourself. "I'm a Veteran."
Gin G Halls Of Valhalla	Posted - 2009.08.26 00:16:00 - [283] Originally by: Kahega Amielden You're hilarious. Wrecks do not belong to you any more than the chocolate bars at the Hershey factory belong to the people who work there. that ones pretty good i goto start using that im not paying you for it though Please refrain from editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.26 00:32:00 - [284] Edited by: g0ggalor on 26/08/2009 00:32:39 Originally by: Roozter It is CCP's fault for condoning it and not allowing us to fight for what we earn. CCP condones the stealing of corp assets worth billions, so what makes you think they will change the salvage mechanics (which they have stated are working as intended) so you don't get so butt hurt?
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.26 01:07:00 - [285] Originally by: Kahega Amielden You're hilarious. Wrecks do not belong to you any more than the chocolate bars at the Hershey factory belong to the people who work there. Not that being a "freeloader" is bad given that it's a video game and as such real-life morality doesn't play into it. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, RL or not, then it must be a duck. And BTW, I am a Republican AND an honorably discharged US Army vet. OK, I've riled enough gankers for the day and I feel a little better after my whining session. I'll go run some missions now so you guys can put dinner on the virtual table tonight. I have not gotten in to the pvp aspect of Eve yet but, when I do, I certainly hope to fire my first round into a gankers ship while he/she is preying on the brand new Eve pilots. The chocolate remark is cute. Don't make much sense, but cute. That's the whole problem here, the wrecks do belong to me if I create the wreck from 'my' mission. Personally, I think maybe some of the CCP people who also play the game are probably gankers and freeload salvagers as well. That would explain their resistance to do what is right and let the MR's fight for what they earn. But then again, opinions are like !@#$%^&*, you know the rest. Cheers .
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.26 03:45:00 - [286] Originally by: Roozter If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, RL or not, then it must be a duck. Let's apply this. So if you can't aggress us for salvaging your wrecks, it looks like they don't belong to you. And if CCP says the salvage goes to whomever grabs it first, it certainly SOUNDS like they don't belong to you. Created by you or not, the wrecks must not belong to you. I like the way you think! Originally by: Roozter I have not gotten in to the pvp aspect of Eve yet but, when I do, I certainly hope to fire my first round into a gankers ship while he/she is preying on the brand new Eve pilots. Except that unlike your run-of-the-mill pirates and goons (and Goons, to be sure), we only tend to gank Hulks, or the level 4 MRs who shoot at us, neither of which can be said to be brand new Eve pilots. In fact, I'm willing to wager that the average SN is far younger, game-wise, than any of the pilots we gank, especially given the flood of recruits all these threads have been giving us. Your typical ninja salvager is more likely to be a noob preying on the old, storied, should-know-better veteran Eve pilots than the other way round.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.26 04:10:00 - [287] Quote: If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, RL or not, then it must be a duck. I got onto Counterstrike and joined a server. I was shocked to find that it was full of griefers who were shooting me at every opportunity. Why can't they play nice Quote: And BTW, I am a Republican I hadn't guessed. Quote: AND an honorably discharged US Army vet. good for you. Quote: OK, I've riled enough gankers for the day Well done. We're inconsolable. Quote: the wrecks do belong to me if I create the wreck from 'my' mission. No. They don't. Unless you think that chocolate bars belong to the workers at the Hershey plant because THEY made it.
JordanParey Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:12:00 - [288] Originally by: Roozter Edited by: Roozter on 25/08/2009 23:33:42 Sounds like I struck a nerve Who is whining now? (whine) Defined: 1. to utter a low, usually nasal, complaining cry or sound, as from uneasiness, discontent, peevishness, etc.: The puppies were whining from hunger. 2. to snivel or complain in a peevish, self-pitying way: He is always whining about his problems. My original post was merely showing the freeloaders the same consideration and/or respect that they show the MR's while pillaging their stuff and then bragging about it in local AND on this forum. Just an observation: If you are one of those freeloaders and you reside in the USA, I'll bet money you voted for Obama. If not, you missed a good opportunity to jump on the freeloader bandwagon. I can't imagine a US soldier who is actually a liberal. But then I can't imagine a US soldier who is a griefer either. Go figure. But I do thank you for your RL commitment. Yeah sure, you can all split my stuff. Hey wait, you're already doing it. Whatever is left when I stop playing Eve, I will donate to a worthy cause like, well, I can't think of one right now but I'm sure there are a few. Cheers . You haven't hit a nerve in the slightest. I was merely trying to make a a respectful post about what you could do to avoid us and and how your comments about what we do in real life were inaccurate. I was not whining. I was not snivelling, grovelling, or self-pitying. I was not complaining. As far as being a RL freeloader goes, I AM Republican, I voted for McCain (was duly disappointed when he lost), and I am not a griefer. However, that is off-topic, and doesn't belong here nor in Eve. You obviously didn't check me out ingame. I have 9+ standings with Brutor Tribe, 9+ standings with RSS, 5.6 standings with Minmatar as a whole, etc. etc. etc, and my title is "token carebear". I run my own L4s. You want to know when I got my first ninja? I moved.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.26 05:19:00 - [289] Originally by: BlindBleu Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Edited by: Izztyrr Maemtor on 25/08/2009 20:02:18 Originally by: Roozter I'm just looking for a good reason to quit spending useless money on Eve accounts anyway. Too many other games out there. can i haz ur stuffz FAIL The Correct Method/Way is: "Stand and Deliver" Don't forget to have your weapons pointed at the coach and coachman. ya'all got wrong. Just go out to his deadspace and take it like a freeloader who lives on welfare. Originally by: Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.08.26 08:44:00 - [290] Hrm... all this time I've been doing it wrong. I usually just wait for the entrepreneurs to finish what they're doing and leave them in peace. [Aussie players: join channel ANZAC]
Marguerite Antiki	Posted - 2009.08.26 09:24:00 - [291] Originally by: Roozter Originally by: Kahega Amielden You're hilarious. Wrecks do not belong to you any more than the chocolate bars at the Hershey factory belong to the people who work there. Not that being a "freeloader" is bad given that it's a video game and as such real-life morality doesn't play into it. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, RL or not, then it must be a duck. And BTW, I am a Republican AND an honorably discharged US Army vet. OK, I've riled enough gankers for the day and I feel a little better after my whining session. I'll go run some missions now so you guys can put dinner on the virtual table tonight. I have not gotten in to the pvp aspect of Eve yet but, when I do, I certainly hope to fire my first round into a gankers ship while he/she is preying on the brand new Eve pilots. The chocolate remark is cute. Don't make much sense, but cute. That's the whole problem here, the wrecks do belong to me if I create the wreck from 'my' mission. Personally, I think maybe some of the CCP people who also play the game are probably gankers and freeload salvagers as well. That would explain their resistance to do what is right and let the MR's fight for what they earn. But then again, opinions are like !@#$%^&*, you know the rest. Cheers . Quick quick, can I take part in this. I vote too, but I am not in the USA and I play war too, I had an army set that I used once, then the toy soldiers got run over and I cried. But really, sorry guys I am Bill Gates and I served with CCP for four years where I was discharged (an blah blah who gives a toss as you can write anything on here and not be able to prove it....)in making this game and the mechanics stay the same, its not stealing, buld a bridge. For the rest of ya dribble, the best quote for you is; - Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics... Even if you win, you're still a spazz. Therefore, again, till CCP says differently, it stays as is.
Riedle	Posted - 2009.08.26 12:36:00 - [292] Originally by: Roozter Originally by: Kahega Amielden You're hilarious. Wrecks do not belong to you any more than the chocolate bars at the Hershey factory belong to the people who work there. Not that being a "freeloader" is bad given that it's a video game and as such real-life morality doesn't play into it. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, RL or not, then it must be a duck. And BTW, I am a Republican AND an honorably discharged US Army vet. OK, I've riled enough gankers for the day and I feel a little better after my whining session. I'll go run some missions now so you guys can put dinner on the virtual table tonight. I have not gotten in to the pvp aspect of Eve yet but, when I do, I certainly hope to fire my first round into a gankers ship while he/she is preying on the brand new Eve pilots. The chocolate remark is cute. Don't make much sense, but cute. That's the whole problem here, the wrecks do belong to me if I create the wreck from 'my' mission. Personally, I think maybe some of the CCP people who also play the game are probably gankers and freeload salvagers as well. That would explain their resistance to do what is right and let the MR's fight for what they earn. But then again, opinions are like !@#$%^&*, you know the rest. Cheers . What? No more incorrect, ridiculous RL analogies to make about internet space pixels?
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.26 14:51:00 - [293] Well, hold on a minute, I'm trying to come up with something else..... What's the use? If CCP says it is "working as intended" then it must be right and I must be wrong. I'm happy for you guys and gals. Here, let me get out of your way so you can have your fun and train all those new recruits that are busting down your doors as a result of this thread. Hey, maybe you are right, I can just apply for a membership to one of the freeloader salvage/ganker corps and, if my corp mates are doing it, then I won't feel like a freeloader. I'll just blend in and it will get me out of the welfare line long enough to build myself a better ship and move on to a make believe profession that will actually be worth doing. Oh, and while I am at it, I can learn how to provoke the overzealous MR into shooting at me while my friends are waiting in the next room to gang up on him/her. I mean, chances are the MR is pretty much defenseless when it comes to pvp because he/she chose a non intrusive non freeloader career in Eve. Excuse me for not liking it when people invade my space and steal, oops, help themselves to the spoils of my efforts. You guys just ruffled my feathers a bit. Then I have to get my comb out and spend some of my valuable free time trying to gussy myself up again when I could be using that time to race back to my (our) salvage before the freeloaders get all the good stuff. I'll try to keep it to myself from now on. Hope I didn't offend anyone .
Riedle	Posted - 2009.08.26 15:04:00 - [294] Originally by: Roozter Well, hold on a minute, I'm trying to come up with something else..... What's the use? If CCP says it is "working as intended" then it must be right and I must be wrong. I'm happy for you guys and gals. Here, let me get out of your way so you can have your fun and train all those new recruits that are busting down your doors as a result of this thread. Hey, maybe you are right, I can just apply for a membership to one of the freeloader salvage/ganker corps and, if my corp mates are doing it, then I won't feel like a freeloader. I'll just blend in and it will get me out of the welfare line long enough to build myself a better ship and move on to a make believe profession that will actually be worth doing. Oh, and while I am at it, I can learn how to provoke the overzealous MR into shooting at me while my friends are waiting in the next room to gang up on him/her. I mean, chances are the MR is pretty much defenseless when it comes to pvp because he/she chose a non intrusive non freeloader career in Eve. Excuse me for not liking it when people invade my space and steal, oops, help themselves to the spoils of my efforts. You guys just ruffled my feathers a bit. Then I have to get my comb out and spend some of my valuable free time trying to gussy myself up again when I could be using that time to race back to my (our) salvage before the freeloaders get all the good stuff. I'll try to keep it to myself from now on. Hope I didn't offend anyone . You would have saved alot of typing if you just said that you wanted to play a single player game instead of an MMO
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.26 15:13:00 - [295] That's what's cool about Eve. Even though it is technically a MMO, it is just as enjoyable as a solo pilot. So this is what it feels like to be a troll I may have found my new career and won't have to get all upset about sharing OUR salvage that I created. I'm over it. It is what it is. I can't change it. And when CCP changes it, then we will have all the reverse whining. .
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.26 15:26:00 - [296] Originally by: Roozter I'm over it. It is what it is. I can't change it. And when CCP changes it, then we will have all the reverse whining. . Why would they change it? They have repeatedly told whining MRs like yourself that the salvage mechanic is working as they intended it to.
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.26 15:52:00 - [297] Originally by: g0ggalor Originally by: Roozter I'm over it. It is what it is. I can't change it. And when CCP changes it, then we will have all the reverse whining. . Why would they change it? They have repeatedly told whining MRs like yourself that the salvage mechanic is working as they intended it to. They probably won't, but I can wish along with my repeated whining can't I? Actually, I was just a little perturbed at the time of my first contact with a freeload scavenger that I immediately came to this forum to voice my discontent. I have carried on to the point that it has gotten very old even to an avid debater such as myself. It's like my very own town hall meeting I'll shut up about it now. Thanks for the words of wisdom. And can't you see I'm trying very hard to have the last word here? .
Cleopatty	Posted - 2009.08.26 16:24:00 - [298] death to all ninjas
Riedle	Posted - 2009.08.26 16:41:00 - [299] Originally by: Roozter Edited by: Roozter on 26/08/2009 15:25:36 That's what's cool about Eve. Even though it is technically an MMO, it is just as enjoyable as a solo pilot. So this is what it feels like to be a troll I may have found my new career and won't have to get all upset about sharing OUR salvage that I created. I'm over it. It is what it is. I can't change it. And when CCP changes it, then we will have all the reverse whining. . And I get my jollies through many things, none of which involves shooting computer controlled BS's. Some of which ARE stealing loot and making salvage from those same computer controlled BS's that you like to shoot (for some unknown reason). So while you enjoy doing what you do, for some undertermined reason, frothing at the mouth for me interupting your peaceful, semi-afk solitude only adds more joy to my stealing ways.
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.26 17:24:00 - [300] Originally by: Cleopatty death to all ninjas Is this just talk, or is this GAME?
Zed Jackelope Insert Obscure Latin Name	Posted - 2009.08.26 19:06:00 - [301] man.... Roozter is one butthurt dude. Someone get him some cream. Originally by: Awesome Possum Ban in place for using inappropriate language and evading the profanity filter. When Will I be able to post again? 09/03/09
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.27 09:16:00 - [302] Originally by: JordanParey As far as being a RL freeloader goes, I AM Republican, I voted for McCain (was duly disappointed when he lost) Aw, man, i have to find you and gank you now... And i was starting to like you +10 on your very respectful post... to bad people never learnd to be as respectfull back
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.27 09:22:00 - [303] Edited by: Mad Maulkin on 27/08/2009 09:24:17 Originally by: Roozter So this is what it feels like to be a troll I may have found my new career and won't have to get all upset about sharing OUR salvage that I created. Create it? how did you create it? you got a little salvage maker in the back you feed tritanium? I propose a new proffesion, Ninja Miner!
Tesh Sevateem Rat Pack Renegades	Posted - 2009.08.27 12:21:00 - [304] Originally by: Mad Maulkin Edited by: Mad Maulkin on 27/08/2009 09:24:17 Originally by: Roozter So this is what it feels like to be a troll I may have found my new career and won't have to get all upset about sharing OUR salvage that I created. Create it? how did you create it? you got a little salvage maker in the back you feed tritanium? I propose a new proffesion, Ninja Miner! He didn't create the loot either - but that stuff can't be picked up by anyone. In the end, salvage is loot, loot is salvage. It's stuff that drops which can be sold. End of story. The fact that CCP decided that salvage is free for all has nothing to do with who should have the right to an item. If salvage can be picked up by anybody, it should be like that with regular loot as well.
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.27 12:30:00 - [305] Originally by: Tesh Sevateem Originally by: Mad Maulkin Edited by: Mad Maulkin on 27/08/2009 09:24:17 Originally by: Roozter So this is what it feels like to be a troll I may have found my new career and won't have to get all upset about sharing OUR salvage that I created. Create it? how did you create it? you got a little salvage maker in the back you feed tritanium? I propose a new proffesion, Ninja Miner! He didn't create the loot either - but that stuff can't be picked up by anyone. In the end, salvage is loot, loot is salvage. It's stuff that drops which can be sold. End of story. The fact that CCP decided that salvage is free for all has nothing to do with who should have the right to an item. If salvage can be picked up by anybody, it should be like that with regular loot as well. So you want to take away the aggresion timer then? anything in a can goes? Cause the loot come in a can, the wreck don't, you cant pick up the wreck and reprosses it at home... when the wreck is salvaged, the can remains...
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.27 13:11:00 - [306] Originally by: Tesh Sevateem Originally by: Mad Maulkin Edited by: Mad Maulkin on 27/08/2009 09:24:17 Originally by: Roozter So this is what it feels like to be a troll I may have found my new career and won't have to get all upset about sharing OUR salvage that I created. Create it? how did you create it? you got a little salvage maker in the back you feed tritanium? I propose a new proffesion, Ninja Miner! He didn't create the loot either - but that stuff can't be picked up by anyone. In the end, salvage is loot, loot is salvage. It's stuff that drops which can be sold. End of story. The fact that CCP decided that salvage is free for all has nothing to do with who should have the right to an item. If salvage can be picked up by anybody, it should be like that with regular loot as well. OR, if CCP decided that stealing loot will flag you then it should be that way with salvage as well. End of story. Miss Maulkin, I can't tell which side of the fence you are clinging to. You seem to be dissing both sides of the debate. Cowboy/Cowgirl up and pick a side. Or maybe you are here because you are bored and the issue means nothing to you one way or the other? This disagreement could go on forever and there would still be strong opposition on both sides. Although I seem to be the only one with an opposing voice for the past few days, on this thread anyway. I do hear it in game quite often. And it is picking up steam. If I were out in low sec I bet there would not be an issue because you guys don't want to do it where you can be retaliated against without Concord intervention. Of course you use the excuse that "it is not as profitable out there". Of course it isn't. You don't last long enough to get it to market. And of course you would have to go at it without some of those fancy implants that boost some of your abilities to scan, gank, maneuver, fight, etc... You guys try to pass it off as an honorable profession. Please, the only thing honorable about it is the title. (Yes, even though 'Ninja' is/was an assassin, it was never the less an honorable profession). Everything else is simply disrespect and/or laziness. That's the way I see it and that's the way most people in Eve see it. That's the way YOU see it if you are honest with yourself and your little nOOb trainees. I am sure Roozter has been added to every one of your address books and is KOS to most of you for saying what I think about your so called profession. I do fly around with him on occasion, yes, even in low sec. Just haven't had time to skill him up yet. So when you do see him out there, by all means, gank/attack. I will be needing the pvp practice. I learn fast though. Chow .
Tesh Sevateem Rat Pack Renegades	Posted - 2009.08.27 13:45:00 - [307] Originally by: Mad Maulkin So you want to take away the aggresion timer then? anything in a can goes? Cause the loot come in a can, the wreck don't, you cant pick up the wreck and reprosses it at home... when the wreck is salvaged, the can remains... Not sure what I want to do. This situation hasn't bothered me so far. What I'm saying is that the difference between salvage and loot is all in a CCP definition. I can say "it doesn't make any sense", and in the end it doesn't matter because CCP makes the rules. However, much as a forum can be used to clarify certain rules, the most common use is to discuss the validity of said rule. Otherwise all discussions would be two posts: A question and an answer. If I shoot an enemy down, by rule I have the right of the loot that may have been left behind. If someone takes this loot, then they are flagged and I can shoot them down. A ship consists of metal plating, plastic wiring and a mix of various components and modules. In fact, all parts of a wreck could be useful to an extent. Even the crude metal can be reprocessed. The undamaged modules can be refitted once docked. Then we have the salvage... what is the difference between a Broken Drone Transceiver and a Mega Pulse Laser I? They're both items of value, both items that were left on the ship that I blew to pieces. By CCP law, I have the right only to grab the Laser. And that doesn't make sense to me. Where the complication arises is when the person doing the shooting doesn't have the skills to salvage the wreck for any additional components. But it's no more complicated than realizing the wreck still "belongs" to the person who shot the enemy down, regardless of whether or not the person can salvage.
Izztyrr Maemtor Caldari Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.27 13:56:00 - [308] Originally by: Roozter I am sure Roozter has been added to every one of your address books and is KOS to most of you for saying what I think about your so called profession. I do fly around with him on occasion, yes, even in low sec. Just haven't had time to skill him up yet. So when you do see him out there, by all means, gank/attack. I will be needing the pvp practice. I learn fast though. Chow . You flatter yourself. I have better things to do then look for forum whiners. I suspect most in the salvage profession do too.
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:00:00 - [309] Originally by: Izztyrr Maemtor Originally by: Roozter I am sure Roozter has been added to every one of your address books and is KOS to most of you for saying what I think about your so called profession. I do fly around with him on occasion, yes, even in low sec. Just haven't had time to skill him up yet. So when you do see him out there, by all means, gank/attack. I will be needing the pvp practice. I learn fast though. Chow . You flatter yourself. I have better things to do then look for forum whiners. I suspect most in the salvage profession do too. And yet here you are, looking for forum whiners. .
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:05:00 - [310] Edited by: Mel Lifera on 27/08/2009 14:06:15 Originally by: Tesh Sevateem Then we have the salvage... what is the difference between a Broken Drone Transceiver and a Mega Pulse Laser I? They're both items of value, both items that were left on the ship that I blew to pieces. By CCP law, I have the right only to grab the Laser. And that doesn't make sense to me. No - you certainly DO have the right to grab the broken drone receiver; it's just that, unlike with the laser, your right isn't exclusive. Originally by: Tesh Sevateem Where the complication arises is when the person doing the shooting doesn't have the skills to salvage the wreck for any additional components. But it's no more complicated than realizing the wreck still "belongs" to the person who shot the enemy down, regardless of whether or not the person can salvage. But you're leaving out something important. When you create a wreck, certain items are dropped that you can fly up and transfer to your cargo hold - loot. By destroying the ship, you've done all the work you need to do in order to obtain that loot, and all that's left is to actually pick it up. You cannot simply fly up and grab the broken drone receiver, though, can you? No. Because creating the wreck creates the opportunity for more items, but it doesn't create the more items. That doesn't happen unless you train the salvaging skill, equip the correct modules, and employ them. It requires a completely different and wholly independent skillset than it took to destroy the ship initially. All mission runners, in all these threads, speak as if they're entitled to the salvage because they're under the mistaken impression that they've "done all the work"; but the truth of the matter is that simply creating the wreck (by blowing up the ship) is actually only HALF of the work that needs to be done in order to obtain salvage from it. And that is why your right to the salvage from it is not exclusive.
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:28:00 - [311] The only reason the 'right' to the salvage is not exclusive is because CCP says it is not. We all know that. But just because CCP says it belongs to anybody does not make it right. Put yourself in the MR's position. Would you just let it go without feeling robbed? Honestly? And most of us MR's do have salvaging skills but we have different methods of extracting our salvage/loot such as a dedicated salvage vessel. Most of us do come back for the loot/salvage especially if it is a level 4 mission. It's the difference of making 30 or 40 million as opposed to 3 or 4 million. I don't even bother with level 3's. I can't believe there aren't at least some of you who can't grasp the idea that is is kind of an insult to at least some of us. (Not that you give a **** how other players feel, that is quite obvious). Even though they are only space pixels in a game. It is a game that a lot of us spend a good deal of time and effort to make it interesting enough to spend money on. .
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:56:00 - [312] To Rooster: As i have clearly stated before, might have got lost in the endless amoutn of whining post, i am a MR carebear, ubermining fuzzybunny! That thinks the salvage mechanic works perfectly as it is, loot to me and salvage to the one with the salvager... (which is also me, most of the time) There is a lot of things i don't like in this game, such as ganking and podding, but of course, its one of the risks in the game! And MR is pretty risk free, when you can AFK a lvl 4 mission in a Drone boat... To those saying loot and salvage is the same, please go try and tractor that wreck to you and put it in the cargohold with the loot! Can't? Cause it's not the same... you need to activate it with a module to extract the items from it... like you must to get the bounties, you shoot it... the one to put the last blow gets it... Fair? Like hacking cans, should they then belong to the one spawned the Radar site first? Like Roids, it's considered bad form to mine the same roid as someone else, but the roid still don't belong to you... Mag sites to, should they belong to the first scanner? Eve is a Dog eat Dog world, the Wrecks are an objekt that needs interaction before it yields anything, unlike the look that comes served in can for you to hover! This is my position, but i try to challange the opinions of others to get perhaps a more reflected outlook on the situation instead of a "bacause"...
Tesh Sevateem Rat Pack Renegades	Posted - 2009.08.27 14:57:00 - [313] Originally by: Mel Lifera No - you certainly DO have the right to grab the broken drone receiver; it's just that, unlike with the laser, your right isn't exclusive. Agree, but it's the exclusivity we're discussing, eh? Originally by: Mel Lifera But you're leaving out something important. When you create a wreck, certain items are dropped that you can fly up and transfer to your cargo hold - loot. By destroying the ship, you've done all the work you need to do in order to obtain that loot, and all that's left is to actually pick it up. You cannot simply fly up and grab the broken drone receiver, though, can you? No. Because creating the wreck creates the opportunity for more items, but it doesn't create the more items. That doesn't happen unless you train the salvaging skill, equip the correct modules, and employ them. It requires a completely different and wholly independent skillset than it took to destroy the ship initially. All mission runners, in all these threads, speak as if they're entitled to the salvage because they're under the mistaken impression that they've "done all the work"; but the truth of the matter is that simply creating the wreck (by blowing up the ship) is actually only HALF of the work that needs to be done in order to obtain salvage from it. And that is why your right to the salvage from it is not exclusive. I agree that only half the work is done. And I of course agree that it's an entirely different set of skills needed to actually salvage the wreck. But I'm sure you also agree that in order for someone to salvage a wreck, someone needs to turn it into a wreck in the first place. NPC pirates are pretty much free for all - they roam the universe, and can be found in asteroid belts, mission areas, plexes and so on. Once you locate one, you are free to take him or her out. Making a business out of destroying pirate ships and salvaging them is very common. So we should also agree that the person following a mission runner and salvaging the wrecks is most likely also aware that the mission runner would have been salvaging the wrecks himself. It usually helps with an out of game example. Peter is skilled in climbing trees. His friend Archie is skilled in neutralizing large spiders. They both venture to the forest where Peter climbs tree after tree to poke huge spiders with a stick so that they fall down. They fall to the ground quickly, sometimes a few at a time. While Archie is running around collecting and neutralizing them, a guy named John also picks up the spiders and stuffs them into his bag. When Archie and Peter complain that he should get his own spiders, John laughs and argues that picking them up and neutralizing them has nothing to do with knocking them down. They're completely different sets of skills. The thing is: Archie and Peter would together be able to bring home spiders. They are a team and work together in coorporation. They're a team by agreement. Alone, John would be able to go home with nothing. I fail to see how salvaging wrecks that someone has made appear, perhaps with the main purpose of salvaging, can be considered free for all. Again, this has nothing to do with what CCP rules state, but merely to do with what makes sense.
Riedle	Posted - 2009.08.27 15:56:00 - [314] Originally by: Roozter Life not fair me ****ed. ~yawn~
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.27 16:24:00 - [315] Looks like the argument re-looped for the third time in this thread. Originally by: Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
Erick Odin Amarr UNIX ALLSTARS	Posted - 2009.08.27 17:48:00 - [316] Why bother scanning mission runners down? Just go to Providence. There are tons of wrecks floating around in the belts. I don't touch them though, even though it would be nice part time work.
Haraukiae Youik	Posted - 2009.08.27 18:13:00 - [317] Originally by: Erick Odin Why bother scanning mission runners down? Just go to Providence. There are tons of wrecks floating around in the belts. I don't touch them though, even though it would be nice part time work. Or just go to 0.0 and join a threshing machine corps. Kind of like, we own you?
Gin G Halls Of Valhalla	Posted - 2009.08.27 18:17:00 - [318] I wonder how many people hae joined TEARS because of this thread Please refrain from editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist
Erick Odin Amarr UNIX ALLSTARS	Posted - 2009.08.27 18:22:00 - [319] Originally by: Haraukiae Youik Originally by: Erick Odin Why bother scanning mission runners down? Just go to Providence. There are tons of wrecks floating around in the belts. I don't touch them though, even though it would be nice part time work. Or just go to 0.0 and join a threshing machine corps. Kind of like, we own you? Well, I didn't say you should join a corp. They leave neutrals alone, and there are lots of salvage opportunities. Like I said, I don't partake myself, I mostly rat and salvage wrecks I created, but all of these folks fascinated with salvage as a profession might really enjoy it there.
Izztyrr Maemtor Caldari Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.27 18:25:00 - [320] Originally by: Gin G I wonder how many people hae joined TEARS because of this thread Threads like this one generate a lot of interest in the profession.
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:45:00 - [321] Originally by: Roozter The only reason the 'right' to the salvage is not exclusive is because CCP says it is not. We all know that. But just because CCP says it belongs to anybody does not make it right. I believe it does. I feel it is an accurate reflection of contemporary salvage law, which is as much a faring tradition as calling the master of a vessel a "captain". Originally by: Roozter Put yourself in the MR's position. Would you just let it go without feeling robbed? Honestly? And most of us MR's do have salvaging skills but we have different methods of extracting our salvage/loot such as a dedicated salvage vessel. Most of us do come back for the loot/salvage especially if it is a level 4 mission. And yet you keep getting "robbed", as you put it. So tell me - if you're given a brand new mission and during said mission you find out that those particular NPC's are tanking your EM charges like wiffle-balls, what do you do? Just keep wasting EM ammunition on them? No. That is now a failed strategy - it just doesn't work. You go back to the station to get something thermal or kenetic for your weapons, right? You adapt, you adjust. Obviously doing your mission first and then leaving and coming back with a dedicated salvage vessel, is a failed strategy. We'll come and take all the wrecks and by the time you arrive there's nothing left but cans (if the ninja didn't loot as well). You need to shift strategies - sacrifice one of your highs for a salvager. Get a marauder, so it isn't a "sacrifice" at all. Bring friends to do it for you. Whatever you decide to do. Because your inability or flat-out refusal to change the way you do things is something we can't help you with, and will not make us feel bad, nor is it reasonable to expect us to self-nerf just because you can't get with the program. Originally by: Roozter I can't believe there aren't at least some of you who can't grasp the idea that it is kind of an insult to at least some of us. (Not that you give a **** how other players feel, that is quite obvious). Even though they are only space pixels in a game. It is a game that a lot of us spend a good deal of time and effort to make it interesting enough to spend money on. . I took a shortcut through lowsec recently and got podded by a single drake camping a gate with a smart bomb. Lost my ship, a couple of halfway-cheap implants, all my modules - I couldn't even go back to pick up what I dropped. Did I like it happening to me? Of course not. I woke up halfway across the universe someplace I couldn't even remember buying a clone at, with nice lovely kill rights (for one month) on someone I'm never, ever going to see again even if I tried looking. Did I take it personally? No. I had no clue who this guy was, and to him I was just another bracket on the overview. The decision to take what we do personally is yours alone, and is also something we cannot help. Not only that, but it makes no difference on our end of things.
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:55:00 - [322] Originally by: Tesh Sevateem But I'm sure you also agree that in order for someone to salvage a wreck, someone needs to turn it into a wreck in the first place. NPC pirates are pretty much free for all - they roam the universe, and can be found in asteroid belts, mission areas, plexes and so on. Once you locate one, you are free to take him or her out. Making a business out of destroying pirate ships and salvaging them is very common. So we should also agree that the person following a mission runner and salvaging the wrecks is most likely also aware that the mission runner would have been salvaging the wrecks himself. It usually helps with an out of game example. Peter is skilled in climbing trees. His friend Archie is skilled in neutralizing large spiders. They both venture to the forest where Peter climbs tree after tree to poke huge spiders with a stick so that they fall down. They fall to the ground quickly, sometimes a few at a time. While Archie is running around collecting and neutralizing them, a guy named John also picks up the spiders and stuffs them into his bag. When Archie and Peter complain that he should get his own spiders, John laughs and argues that picking them up and neutralizing them has nothing to do with knocking them down. They're completely different sets of skills. The thing is: Archie and Peter would together be able to bring home spiders. They are a team and work together in coorporation. They're a team by agreement. Alone, John would be able to go home with nothing. I fail to see how salvaging wrecks that someone has made appear, perhaps with the main purpose of salvaging, can be considered free for all. Again, this has nothing to do with what CCP rules state, but merely to do with what makes sense. Doesn't wash, because in order for your analogy to be accurate, Archie and Peter would have to be doing their spider-hunting in a public park with lots of people in it. By insisting that your mission should be off limits, you're doing the equivalent of walking away from the crowd to the furthest tree in a copse of trees in the far corner of the park and declaring that your distance from everyone else is tantamount to privacy. The problem is, anybody with really good eyes can look over in your direction and see that there's some people over in those trees doing something. Anybody in the park can walk over, just as you did. Further refine the analogy to make spiders a hot commodity, and expecting somebody to just ignore all the falling spiders because two people he doesn't know made an agreement outside of his knowledge simply becomes irrational. Even more so if Archie was all alone, knocking spiders out of the tree with the expectation of eventually jumping down there to collect them all himself. What's the alternative? If Peter is fast enough, John's plum out of luck isn't he?
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.27 19:57:00 - [323] Originally by: Mel Lifera ...Lots of smart things... I agree, good reflective post there... now for the answers... *MadMaulkin waits... (oh, and saying the mechanics as they work today is wrong, its, im sorry, stupid... Its the way it works,as CCP intended, and you might disagree, and loudly!! but please don't claim that its in anyway wrong, cause you imply its a bug... its not... You don't often hear us saying its "Right" we just say, we like the way it works now, and we'll probably complain just as much as you do if they change it... Advocating change is ok, go for it, it gives us alot of fun... But stop claiming you in anyway know better than CCP how this should or should not work, cause it clearly works as inteded, despite how much you disagree....)
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.27 20:00:00 - [324] Edited by: Mad Maulkin on 27/08/2009 20:02:19 And to top it off Mel , what John did was perfectly legal, unless he took Archies bag... Might be a douch (sorry ninjas) but still in his right... Edit: how did i fall in with this gang of pirates... Damn you dark handsome men with your blue eyes! (has never pirated or ninjad in her life, i just add...)
Aklari	Posted - 2009.08.27 21:44:00 - [325] Edited by: Aklari on 27/08/2009 21:44:32 Originally by: Mel Lifera stuff What's the alternative? If Peter is fast enough, John's plum out of luck isn't he? The alternative is, that in the real world, John's likely to get punched in the nose. Or sued. You nor any litigant IRL can possibly think that 'collecting' the fruits of someone else's labour against their wishes should come without consequences? I realize that every ninja salvager and supporter thereof is either a troll or raised under a far different code of morals than myself, but give me a break. It's not really necessary to rationalize immoral behavior in a game, unless you are trying to convince yourself. I honestly don't believe that there is a single actor in this failure of a melodramatic performance that truly believes ninja salvaging is not an act of piracy, be it sanctioned or not. Do it for the tears, or for the ISK, but don't try to pretend it is a reasonable, moral act.
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.27 22:49:00 - [326] I don't KEEP getting 'robbed' (which is the proper description). It happened to me one time so far. I then adjusted (thanks for the suggestion). I am still here posting because I simply believe it is wrong and I am stubborn. Plus, there are other MR's out there who are also getting robbed and then slapped in the face by CCP. The nasty little problem seems to be getting worse and it 'will' cause people to quit the game. You could say I am an advocate for CCP. We don't want them to lose money because they refuse to listen and will eventually lose players over it. I'm so sure the average MR can just jump in and spend a billion + to buy fit and insure a Marauder. Let's be realistic. My main argument here is the fact that, in Eve, there is place for everything. I choose to run missions in hi sec because it is relatively safe and I don't (didn't) have to keep that close of an eye on my rear view (local). That is until now. I not only have to watch out for the NPC I am fighting but I have to watch out for the free range salvager (and his cronies kicking it over in the next room waiting for the word) AND Concord on top of it if I decided to do something so bold and/or stupid as to attempt to fight for what is theoretically mine. So, in other words, the MR is the one getting ganked either way.
Tesh Sevateem Rat Pack Renegades	Posted - 2009.08.27 23:39:00 - [327] Originally by: Mel Lifera Doesn't wash, because in order for your analogy to be accurate, Archie and Peter would have to be doing their spider-hunting in a public park with lots of people in it. By insisting that your mission should be off limits, you're doing the equivalent of walking away from the crowd to the furthest tree in a copse of trees in the far corner of the park and declaring that your distance from everyone else is tantamount to privacy. The problem is, anybody with really good eyes can look over in your direction and see that there's some people over in those trees doing something. Anybody in the park can walk over, just as you did. Further refine the analogy to make spiders a hot commodity, and expecting somebody to just ignore all the falling spiders because two people he doesn't know made an agreement outside of his knowledge simply becomes irrational. Even more so if Archie was all alone, knocking spiders out of the tree with the expectation of eventually jumping down there to collect them all himself. What's the alternative? If Peter is fast enough, John's plum out of luck isn't he? Public park, sure. But the person(s) doing the mission are so far away, that you need to perform specific system scans just to locate them. Would be the same as someone equipping a pair of thermal goggles to find Peter in the tree. That action, scanning for people doing a mission, is a deliberate act. Don't tell me the person salvaging the wrecks they've created doesn't know he's grabbing fruits that someone else picked. And privacy or not. If someone is doing something, and you don't know the person, any kind of interaction with the objects which the person has been handling is considered rude. If I'm climbing an apple tree in a public park with lots of people around, gently lobbing apples down on the grass with plans of picking them up to bring home, and some jerk walks past me and picks up the apples I've left there, then that person is deliberately taking my apples. If the argument is "pick faster, if you don't want someone taking your fruit" then you've missed the point. It's not about whether or not the person can pick up the fruit and leave. It's whether or not it's right that he can do it. Don't mistake this for a carebear argument. I'm not talking about what can or should be done in EVE - it's a sandbox, and people can do what they bloody well want. What I don't get is why people continuously argue that there's nothing whatsoever wrong with people salvaging wrecks while a person is busy killing NPC's. That this person has no special right to the wrecks.
FOl2TY8 Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.27 23:48:00 - [328] Originally by: Gin G I wonder how many people hae joined TEARS because of this thread \/ ---------- This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.27 23:58:00 - [329] Originally by: Tesh Sevateem Don't mistake this for a carebear argument. I'm not talking about what can or should be done in EVE - it's a sandbox, and people can do what they bloody well want. What I don't get is why people continuously argue that there's nothing whatsoever wrong with people salvaging wrecks while a person is busy killing NPC's. That this person has no special right to the wrecks. Its because CCP has stated that the person who blew up the ship has no rights to the wrecks. The sooner you accept that, the sooner the tears stop.
Aklari	Posted - 2009.08.28 00:24:00 - [330] Edited by: Aklari on 28/08/2009 00:25:52 Edited by: Aklari on 28/08/2009 00:25:18 Originally by: g0ggalor Its because CCP has stated that the person who blew up the ship has no rights to the wrecks. The sooner you accept that, the sooner the tears stop. Whatever CCP says, it is indeed an untruth, or an incomplete one at best, and we all know it. The MR has MORE rights to the ship than the random , no matter what CONCORD says. That is why this argument exists. With CONCORD, there are only 2 responses. Either you are Concordonked, or you are ignored. If there were gradiented responses, the issue would be moot. The fact is, when a rogue salvager takes loot that a MR intended on looting, he is aggressing that MR, whether the game mechanics recognize it or not. Most of the MR's I've seen post, angsty kiddies aside, recognize this is an intended game mechanic, as annoying as it can be. Whether to push MRs away from hub mission systems, or into lowsec, it is as CCP wants. It is amusing how the rogue salvagers take this to heart in such a manner as to incite such righteous conviction that they, Rogue Salvager Extraordinaire have been entrusted by The Man Himself to free the poor salvaged loot from the grubby, unworthy hands of the dirge of the Sansa Nation, the Level 4 Mission Runner. tl;dr: It's a cheap tactic, but a game mechanic. Both sides need to get over themselves. Whether you are waving your EE Honda hundred-hand slap around all day, or making an uncorped alt for the sole purpose of harassing MR's, it is likely you are socially inept. And if you leak tears about it, well, go on shedding them, they are as tasty to me as anyone, even if I don't partake in the fun. tldr is tl;dr; Everyone should cry moar. EDIT: highly amusing that CCP blocks a word that I wouldn't have possibly imagined a swear word.
FOl2TY8 Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.28 00:27:00 - [331] Edited by: FOl2TY8 on 28/08/2009 00:27:21 Originally by: Aklari EDIT: highly amusing that CCP blocks a word that I wouldn't have possibly imagined a swear word. Is it poop? I bet it's poop. edit What the hell, we can say poop again? Now I'm ***ed. ---------- This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.28 01:56:00 - [332] Originally by: Aklari tl;dr: It's a cheap tactic, but a game mechanic. Both sides need to get over themselves. Whether you are waving your EE Honda hundred-hand slap around all day, or making an uncorped alt for the sole purpose of harassing MR's, it is likely you are socially inept. And if you leak tears about it, well, go on shedding them, they are as tasty to me as anyone, even if I don't partake in the fun. Wow, you are an intellectual powerhouse! Hmmm... I'll just call everyone in the thread socially inept and I'll win the internet! Yeah me \o/
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.28 02:18:00 - [333] Originally by: Aklari The alternative is, that in the real world, John's likely to get punched in the nose. ...which would lead to police intervention (i.e., CONCORD) on John's behalf. Originally by: Aklari Or sued. ...which would lead to a judge's (CCP's) dismissal of the suit as frivolous. Originally by: Aklari You nor any litigant IRL can possibly think that 'collecting' the fruits of someone else's labour against their wishes should come without consequences? We are prepared to accept and deal with those consequences. We deal with them every day, in the form of threads like this and posts like yours, MRs who suicide us, MRs who are on the ball and manage to mop up a room before we get there, and so on and so forth. I've made a cursory glance through the thread but I can't seem to find any ninja salvagers complaining about any of those consequences. Originally by: Aklari It's not really necessary to rationalize immoral behavior in a game, unless you are trying to convince yourself. I'm not trying to portray ninja salvaging as moral or immoral; my position is that the practice is completely amoral, and that therefore subjective quantifiers like "right" or "wrong" do not apply. It seems to me that people are confusing the definitions of those two words with "what is most convenient for me" and "what is most inconvenient for me". Originally by: Aklari I honestly don't believe that there is a single actor in this failure of a melodramatic performance that truly believes ninja salvaging is not an act of piracy, be it sanctioned or not. You have the right to believe or not believe whatever you want.
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.28 02:38:00 - [334] Originally by: Roozter I don't KEEP getting 'robbed' (which is the proper description). It happened to me one time so far. I then adjusted (thanks for the suggestion). Then your troubles are over. Originally by: Roozter I am still here posting because I simply believe it is wrong and I am stubborn. Plus, there are other MR's out there who are also getting robbed and then slapped in the face by the CCP rule. The nasty little problem seems to be getting worse and it 'will' cause people to quit the game. And this is our cross to bear? I think not. If somebody who has spent so much time in the game and worked his skills up to the point where he can AFK level 4 missions has such a short handle that he ragequits EVE forever over wreck salvage, who's to say that leaving EVE isn't the best for that person? Originally by: Roozter I'm so sure the average MR can just jump in and spend a billion + to buy fit and insure a Marauder. Let's be realistic. Spare me such nonsense. That'd be a believable argument if I didn't run into MRs in Marauders all the time in Dodixie and other mission hubs. But believability aside, again, not every option will work for everyone, and it's not like having a Marauder is the only option. You still CAN sacrifice one of those highs for a salvage module. You still CAN bring friends to salvage for you. I suppose you could make an argument like "well not everyone has friends", but as sad as that may be, there's still the salvager module option. And if you don't have the skill to fit a salvager then what are you complaining about? Originally by: Roozter My main argument here is the fact that, in Eve, there is a place for everything. I choose to run missions in hi sec because it is relatively safe and I don't (didn't) have to keep that close of an eye on my rear view (local). That is until now. I not only have to watch out for the NPC I am fighting but I have to watch out for the free range salvager (and his cronies kicking it over in the next room waiting for the word) AND Concord on top of it if I decided to do something so bold and/or stupid as to attempt to fight for what is theoretically mine. So, in other words, the MR is the one getting ganked either way. You're upset because "now" (ostensibly being "when salvaging mechanics were released") there's no risk-free way to run missions. I can sympathize, considering that you'd probably been playing for such a long time without ever seeing anyone visiting your missions; but consider that in all that time, there was no salvage anyway - so it's not like you "can't make money the way you used to". On the contrary - now you can make either "more money than you used to", or "at least as much money as you used to", depending on how fast and cunning you are. You are free to completely ignore both the ninja and the wrecks, and pretend you're playing pre-Apocrypha, I suppose.
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.28 02:45:00 - [335] Originally by: Aklari Edited by: Aklari on 28/08/2009 00:26:33 Originally by: g0ggalor Its because CCP has stated that the person who blew up the ship has no rights to the wrecks. The sooner you accept that, the sooner the tears stop. Whatever CCP says, it is indeed an untruth, or an incomplete one at best, and we all know it. The MR has MORE rights to the ship than the random , no matter what CONCORD says. That is why this argument exists. With CONCORD, there are only 2 responses. Either you are Concordonked, or you are ignored. If there were gradiented responses, the issue would be moot. The fact is, when a rogue salvager takes loot that a MR intended on looting, he is aggressing that MR, whether the game mechanics recognize it or not. Most of the MR's I've seen post, angsty kiddies aside, recognize this is an intended game mechanic, as annoying as it can be. Whether to push MRs away from hub mission systems, or into lowsec, it is as CCP wants. It is amusing how the rogue salvagers take this to heart in such a manner as to incite such righteous conviction that they, Rogue Salvager Extraordinaire have been entrusted by The Man Himself to free the poor salvaged loot from the grubby, unworthy hands of the dirge of the Sansa Nation, the Level 4 Mission Runner. tl;dr: It's a cheap tactic, but a game mechanic. Both sides need to get over themselves. Whether you are waving your EE Honda hundred-hand slap around all day, or making an uncorped alt for the sole purpose of harassing MR's, it is likely you are socially inept. And if you leak tears about it, well, go on shedding them, they are as tasty to me as anyone, even if I don't partake in the fun. tldr is tl;dr; Everyone should cry moar. EDIT: highly amused that CCP blocks a word that I wouldn't have possibly imagined a swear word.
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.28 04:36:00 - [336] Edited by: Roozter on 28/08/2009 04:42:06 Originally by: Mel Lifera Edited by: Mel Lifera on 28/08/2009 02:46:43 Originally by: Aklari Whatever CCP says, it is indeed an untruth, or an incomplete one at best, and we all know it. The MR has MORE rights to the ship than the random , no matter what CONCORD says. Whatever CCP says is the only thing that matters, period. Unless they said you will now be flagged when you take something that don't belong to you. Then you would not agree with them, right? Maybe CCP should come out and play more often and listen to the happiness that this is causing all across hi sec. I have characters in 2 different player corps and 2 in non player corps all in different areas of space and I am hearing it almost constantly now. From the looks of things in this thread, there is one corp whose members seem to be trying to run a filibuster on this issue and acting as if there are only a small percentage of those who oppose. This is not the case. The majority of Eve players know and agree that this is a legitimate problem. Of course I am referring to the hi sec pilots. I can't say for sure what the others feel about it because I am only seeing 'mainly' one corp pushing the issue. I see it in local and I see/hear it in corp channels. There are reasons why we don't come out to low/null sec to try to carve a niche for ourselves and, for some of us, it is not because we are afraid of an altercation. It is because we like to have at least some part of space available to us to carry out our mundane struggle for isk and standings without having the scavengers hanging on our heat signature with their tongues wagging waiting to benefit from our efforts. I don't care what kind of jargon you use to try to paint a pretty picture of a freeloading/ganker/griefer/thief, it can't be done. CCP could simply be fair about it and let us attack the intruder without Concord intervention and that would clear the air a bit. At least we could have the law (kinda' sorta') on our side for a change when it comes to pirates (that is what you guys are) and we could run missions and kill rats of all sorts. Or get killed by someone other than our own police force, which would probably be a valuable learning experience, for me at least. A lot of you (most of you) appear to be pretty intelligent (not that I am an authority on intelligent people) and are well aware of what is and is not right. You just refuse to voice it for whatever reasons. Maybe it's an alter ego issue. Maybe it's just the isk. Or you just enjoy being what you are in game, sanctioned hi sec pirates.
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.28 05:25:00 - [337] Originally by: Roozter Edited by: Roozter on 28/08/2009 04:42:06 Originally by: Mel Lifera Edited by: Mel Lifera on 28/08/2009 02:46:43 Originally by: Aklari Whatever CCP says, it is indeed an untruth, or an incomplete one at best, and we all know it. The MR has MORE rights to the ship than the random , no matter what CONCORD says. Whatever CCP says is the only thing that matters, period. Unless they said you will now be flagged when you take something that don't belong to you. Then you would not agree with them, right? But what about taking something that belongs to no one?
Conrad Lionhart Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.28 07:02:00 - [338] I agree that ninja salvaging is unethical. Therefore I will do what others have done, and shoot wrecks before the ninjas get to them. My Blog: http://www.brugamers.com/index.php?blog=43
Tesh Sevateem Rat Pack Renegades	Posted - 2009.08.28 08:34:00 - [339] Originally by: g0ggalor Its because CCP has stated that the person who blew up the ship has no rights to the wrecks. The sooner you accept that, the sooner the tears stop. Originally by: Mel Lifera Whatever CCP says is the only thing that matters, period. I'm not crying. Like I said, this whole "ninja salvage" thing has never bothered me - not once. I'm talking about what's right and what's not. Consider it taking a side in an argument in which I have no personal interest. Such as the conflict in Palestine, for instance. The only tears I could be crying, would be for the fact that so many people here seem to consider a forum primarily a place to pat each others' backs while sucking up to their master, instead of realizing a forum is in fact the best place to debate whether the rules the master has set down are in fact fair.
Arthamel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.08.28 09:16:00 - [340] All the people complaining about wrecks being neutral are not aware of that CCP did it to protect them. You really think that if salvaging would give you kill rights pirates would stop? Then you're making a mistake. They will. They wont care. You shoot back, they come in gank ships, kill you, call support if needed. Then what? You would start crying "NERF SCANNING, WHY CAN THEY SEE ME IN MY MISSION?!!!11@2oneonetwo". The way it is now protects both parties, salvagers and missioners. You want to strip yourself of last defence CCP gave you?
Conrad Lionhart Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.28 09:26:00 - [341] Originally by: Arthamel All the people complaining about wrecks being neutral are not aware of that CCP did it to protect them. You really think that if salvaging would give you kill rights pirates would stop? Then you're making a mistake. They will. They wont care. You shoot back, they come in gank ships, kill you, call support if needed. Then what? You would start crying "NERF SCANNING, WHY CAN THEY SEE ME IN MY MISSION?!!!11@2oneonetwo". The way it is now protects both parties, salvagers and missioners. You want to strip yourself of last defence CCP gave you? That would be like saying to protect people who eject containers, they should make containers neutral so that they won't have the chance to fire at the thieves who steal them, which would then lead to an all-out fight. That really doesn't make sense. My Blog: http://www.brugamers.com/index.php?blog=43
Arthamel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.08.28 09:33:00 - [342] Originally by: Conrad Lionhart Originally by: Arthamel All the people complaining about wrecks being neutral are not aware of that CCP did it to protect them. You really think that if salvaging would give you kill rights pirates would stop? Then you're making a mistake. They will. They wont care. You shoot back, they come in gank ships, kill you, call support if needed. Then what? You would start crying "NERF SCANNING, WHY CAN THEY SEE ME IN MY MISSION?!!!11@2oneonetwo". The way it is now protects both parties, salvagers and missioners. You want to strip yourself of last defence CCP gave you? That would be like saying to protect people who eject containers, they should make containers neutral so that they won't have the chance to fire at the thieves who steal them, which would then lead to an all-out fight. That really doesn't make sense. This really don't make sense :P Containers contain () or can contain valuable loot, way more valuable than wreck. Its obvious that player you stole container with xx or xxx mil in loot will and would want to shoot you, than some newbie whose small mission generic wreck you salvaged shoots you out of frustration or just because you blink.
Conrad Lionhart Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.28 09:40:00 - [343] Edited by: Conrad Lionhart on 28/08/2009 09:40:18 Originally by: Arthamel Containers contain () or can contain valuable loot, way more valuable than wreck. Thread over. My Blog: http://www.brugamers.com/index.php?blog=43
Arthamel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.08.28 09:44:00 - [344] Originally by: Conrad Lionhart Edited by: Conrad Lionhart on 28/08/2009 09:40:18 Originally by: Arthamel Containers contain () or can contain valuable loot, way more valuable than wreck. Thread over. Well I don't really get your point here, maybe coz of my poor english grammar etc understanding :) If I made such mistake (grammar I mean) just point it out, running away with those words of yours is pretty... amusing tbh
B Cassidy	Posted - 2009.08.28 10:05:00 - [345] Edited by: B Cassidy on 28/08/2009 10:05:59 Perhaps my post here will explain this a bit better id like to gather some opinions on it frankly as I have pondered this situation for some time now Logical Post attempting to explain ninja salvaging
Conrad Lionhart Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.28 10:21:00 - [346] Edited by: Conrad Lionhart on 28/08/2009 10:25:09 Edited by: Conrad Lionhart on 28/08/2009 10:24:12 Good post Cassidy, definitely more civilized than some of the drivel common on the Internet. But there's still the matter of why salvaging is not considered a criminal act, yet stealing the contents in the same wreck is. The logic is that the loot also doesn't belong to you, it belongs to the rat that you downed. So the loot should belong to whoever gets it first. Yet that's not the case, the loot belongs to whoever killed the rat. But the wreck doesn't belong to whoever killed the rat? Why? Edit: Your post explains why ninja-salvaging is here to stay, just as how it is possible to grief or attack miners, or even pod-kill people. It's part of the open-ended PvP nature of the sandbox. I don't think anyone is disputing that. But I think the bigger issue here is why ninja-salvaging doesn't suffer in-game consequences like stealing the container that contains your ore. My Blog: http://www.brugamers.com/index.php?blog=43
B Cassidy	Posted - 2009.08.28 10:38:00 - [347] Edited by: B Cassidy on 28/08/2009 10:42:37 Ah the core issue then is the disparity between the loot and the wreck. I can see why the disparity exists. See CCP wants to reward your for the risk you took facing the NPCS. They give you a bit of ammo, or a module or two etc. But ultimately you dont have to skill anything beyond the combative skills to shoot down that rat to obtain said loot. However to salvage a wreck you must train salvage. You the must purchase the module etc. It requires an extra step for your character. This extra step is the difference maker. You could technically salvage and not have to train any combative skills. Fly around belt to belt and salvage the npcs that are shot down therein. Can you earn loot without risking your ship against npcs? The answer here is no. Now ill anticipate the counter argument that well I am technically risking my ship for salvage when I shoot the rat to make the wreck. However simply put if you have no salvaging skill you cant salvage it any way. Thus it is not entitled to you unless you possess this skill. This is why its a free for all. In essence the wreck belongs first who ever has the skill to salvage from it and second to whomever salvages it first.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.08.28 11:18:00 - [348] Originally by: Mel Lifera ...which would lead to police intervention (i.e., CONCORD) on John's behalf. Major misperception there.... CONCORD != Police CONCORD's only mission is to punish unlawful attacks. Everything else is the players responsibility. CONCORD is NOT a police force! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.08.28 11:24:00 - [349] Edited by: Kerfira on 28/08/2009 11:26:06 Originally by: Conrad Lionhart But I think the bigger issue here is why ninja-salvaging doesn't suffer in-game consequences like stealing the container that contains your ore. Here ya' go! Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to increase high-sec mission grinding [income] any further. Basically salvage is NOT intended as an additional income for mission runners (or ratters). It stands to reason then that they shouldn't get special privileges. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.28 11:48:00 - [350] Originally by: Arthamel All the people complaining about wrecks being neutral are not aware of that CCP did it to protect them. You really think that if salvaging would give you kill rights pirates would stop? Then you're making a mistake. They will. They wont care. You shoot back, they come in gank ships, kill you, call support if needed. Then what? You would start crying "NERF SCANNING, WHY CAN THEY SEE ME IN MY MISSION?!!!11@2oneonetwo". The way it is now protects both parties, salvagers and missioners. You want to strip yourself of last defence CCP gave you? With all due respect, you are probably wrong about that. If the freelaoder is (appropriately) flagged for coming into your mission and stealing from your mission then you are given the green to make the attempt at fighting for what is yours without the space cops blowing you away. I do believe that this would be a deterrent. I would almost guarantee it. What makes you 'automatically' think that the MR will lose the fight? MR's have support to call in as well. If they were (appropriately) flagged, I am positive that there would be much more corp fleet mission ops going out and having our sanctioned fun as well. As we are typing in this forum, there are corps debating from within about how to protect what we create from our missions without Concord killing us in the process. Give me a break, protecting both sides? Please explain that to me. There is only one side being protected from where I stand. This has nothing to do with salvage skills. The salvage skill is a prerequisite of any serious mission runner just like a rail/missile launcher or a shield/armor hardener. It is a part of your skill set as a mission runner. I don't think I have ever even talked to another MR who does not have the salvage skill. The point of this whole mess is that we feel that we should have the right to fight for our mission rewards without Concord holding the pirates hand while he takes it. .
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.08.28 11:56:00 - [351] Edited by: Kerfira on 28/08/2009 12:02:44 Originally by: Roozter If the freelaoder is (appropriately) flagged for coming into your mission and stealing from your mission then you are given the green to make the attempt at fighting for what is yours without the space cops blowing you away. I do believe that this would be a deterrent. I would almost guarantee it. That is how it IS today! What are you complaining about? Whenever a thief comes into your mission space and steals what is yours, he IS flagged and you can shoot him! Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Originally by: CCP Prism X ...If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding... In essence, your whine is: Whaa!! CCP isn't giving the already best profession in EVE even MORE rewards! Whaa!! It's not fair other professions should also have rewards! Whaaaaaa!!! Pretty pathetic to be completely honest.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Stealnutz Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.28 12:02:00 - [352] Originally by: Roozter The point of this whole mess is that we feel that we should have the right to fight for our mission rewards without Concord holding the pirates hand while he takes it. . Bolded the important part - salvage is not part of your mission reward.
Arthamel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.08.28 12:24:00 - [353] Originally by: Roozter The way it is now protects both parties, salvagers and missioners. You want to strip yourself of last defence CCP gave you? With all due respect, you are probably wrong about that. If the freelaoder is (appropriately) flagged for coming into your mission and stealing from your mission then you are given the green to make the attempt at fighting for what is yours without the space cops blowing you away. I do believe that this would be a deterrent. I would almost guarantee it. What makes you 'automatically' think that the MR will lose the fight? MR's have support to call in as well. If they were (appropriately) flagged, I am positive that there would be much more corp fleet mission ops going out and having our sanctioned fun as well. As we are typing in this forum, there are corps debating from within about how to protect what we create from our missions without Concord killing us in the process. Give me a break, protecting both sides? Please explain that to me. There is only one side being protected from where I stand. This has nothing to do with salvage skills. The salvage skill is a prerequisite of any serious mission runner just like a rail/missile launcher or a shield/armor hardener. It is a part of your skill set as a mission runner. I don't think I have ever even talked to another MR who does not have the salvage skill. The point of this whole mess is that we feel that we should have the right to fight for our mission rewards without Concord holding the pirates hand while he takes it. . Sure he CAN do it, mission runner I mean, but - how many tears of ninja you've ever seen? Or killmails with "ninja pwnd by carebears ambush". I've heard about ambushes players sometimes do, but never encountered one nor met person who suffered from one. Ninjas are small % of players compared to carebears, and its small chance that he'll come to your mission - ambushing em might be a problem, would take time etc... No point.
Insa Rexion Minmatar CTRL-Q	Posted - 2009.08.28 13:13:00 - [354] Originally by: Bazuka So every nooblet learns this and instead of playing the game they just go salvage wrecks and miss on so many better features and options this game offers. How is this "working as intended"again? Typical carebear missioner thinking that he knows what is better for everyone in Eve. I actually gave up mission running out of sheer boredom and joined suddenly ninjas. I learned scanning and aggression mechanics, the latter being something very important that many players still don't understand after years of playing and i managed to earn a reasonable, but MODEST income whilst I was doing it. This seems working as intended to me, I am fairly certain CCP would like to ENCOURAGE players to explore aspects of the game besides mission running, despite the fact you think it is the be all end all. BTW, @ Kahega and the rest of SN, thx again for my "graduation" to actually playing this game properly ...keep up the good work guys I has 17 XBOX can I get sov ??
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.28 13:41:00 - [355] I would gladly devote some extra time to ambush the freeloader an/or group of freeloaders. I promise you that, if they were (appropriately) flagged, it would make it much more interesting AND rewarding to the MR and/or his corp. Just because mission running can be a lucrative profession don't mean that you should share the rewards if you are sitting on your duff waiting until he creates it. Go and earn your own way, we do. Have some dignity, get out of the welfare line. You can say I am whining or crying all you want. I'm debating an important issue. What are you doing? You are trying to justify sanctioned freeloading and thievery. I would like to see how many people continue to do it if they were (appropriately) flagged. Just think of how many nice T2 mods you guys could have by blowing up our ships. Yeah, right. There are guys AND girls in both my corps whose alts are hard core pvpers. They would love to plan ambushes to take out the freeloaders. These are real pvpers not hyenas. Not thieves. Trying to make the argument that (salvage) is not the rightful property of the pilot who created it is pretty lame no matter what the CCP rule is. What about the Miner who puts the stuff in a can until his hauler gets there to pick it up? I suppose you think you have the rights to that too? What about the guy who plays the market and has his stuff hauled hither and yon, is that your stuff too? He didn't create it, he just purchased it. Stud up and create your own rewards. And don't cry when CCP finally lets us fight for our property. We will probably rarely see you. .
Tesh Sevateem Rat Pack Renegades	Posted - 2009.08.28 13:41:00 - [356] I find it peculiar that so many people use this argument: A: "I don't think it's fair that the rules are like this." B: "Well, too bad because those are the rules!" It's completely missing the point. Besides, is there a "proper" way to play this game? Smoking doesn't make you cool, you know.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.28 14:02:00 - [357] Somebody get me some sandbags, They be predicting flash floods from the amount of tears in this thread! Originally by: Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
HottyChick	Posted - 2009.08.28 14:05:00 - [358] Originally by: Zhebais CCP has spoken. Salvage is not stealing. ItÆs not an exploit. ItÆs an intended mini-profession: CCP Mitnal: ôOur policy on this is extremely clearà Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing.ö GM Faolchu: ôThis is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit.ö Senior GM Ytterbium: ôPlayers are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will à and doing so is not considered as an exploit.ö Software Engineer CCP Prism X: ôBefore the salvage enters those containers [your cargo-hold / hangar] it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence itÆs not stealing.ö YES we can read wat ccp said but how would you feel if you went to the shop paid for bottle of spirit/milk ect and I took it saying ''oh it wasnt in ur bag so it wasnt urs'' and the Police would poke you saying ''yea shes right if not in ur bag it isnt urs'' If u kill a boar its urs, If you catch fish its urs so why the hell if you kill rat in eve its wrecks isnt urs? Its ur time u spend to kill it and ur ammo/mods ect so it is freaking urs lol. Also is it so hard to ''cloak''(make invisible to probes in high sec) the mission runner from the moment he/she enter the mission spot to the moment the mission is completed? Im sure it is possible. And how the hell can anyone call it profession lol, since when stealing is profession? Its crime as far as I know.
Tesh Sevateem Rat Pack Renegades	Posted - 2009.08.28 14:06:00 - [359] Originally by: THE L0CK Somebody get me some sandbags, They be predicting flash floods from the amount of tears in this thread! It must be tears of joy, due to the awe-inspiring display of cerebral activity required to make such prophetic predictions.
HottyChick	Posted - 2009.08.28 14:07:00 - [360] Originally by: THE L0CK Somebody get me some sandbags, They be predicting flash floods from the amount of tears in this thread! Whats happened to ur face?
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.08.28 14:18:00 - [361] Originally by: Roozter Edited by: Roozter on 28/08/2009 04:42:06 Originally by: Mel Lifera Edited by: Mel Lifera on 28/08/2009 02:46:43 Originally by: Aklari Whatever CCP says, it is indeed an untruth, or an incomplete one at best, and we all know it. The MR has MORE rights to the ship than the random , no matter what CONCORD says. Whatever CCP says is the only thing that matters, period. Unless they said you will now be flagged when you take something that don't belong to you. Then you would not agree with them, right? The people who I fly with could care less if CCP made salvaging mission runners wreaks a flagging offense. Do it. Then you all will just complain that CCP needs to make missions locked for use by the mission runner only. If miners are any clue on what will happen, a majority of mission runners will complain if other people get flagged for salvaging the mission runners wreaks. Be careful what you wish for, for the consequences might not be what you wanted. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.28 14:41:00 - [362] Edited by: Roozter on 28/08/2009 14:43:30 Originally by: Traidor Disloyal Originally by: Roozter Edited by: Roozter on 28/08/2009 04:42:06 Originally by: Mel Lifera Edited by: Mel Lifera on 28/08/2009 02:46:43 Originally by: Aklari Whatever CCP says, it is indeed an untruth, or an incomplete one at best, and we all know it. The MR has MORE rights to the ship than the random , no matter what CONCORD says. Whatever CCP says is the only thing that matters, period. Unless they said you will now be flagged when you take something that don't belong to you. Then you would not agree with them, right? The people who I fly with could care less if CCP made salvaging mission runners wreaks a flagging offense. Do it. Then you all will just complain that CCP needs to make missions locked for use by the mission runner only. If miners are any clue on what will happen, a majority of mission runners will complain if other people get flagged for salvaging the mission runners wreaks. Be careful what you wish for, for the consequences might not be what you wanted. You may be right about the consequences, but I doubt it. At least we could decide for ourselves whether or not the salvage is worth the aggravation of sending a few of you packing and thinking about what might be the best NEW career for you to take up in Eve. As it stands now, (sanctioned thievery), CCP gets to decide the consequences for us. BTW, I think that is a very good idea. Restricting access to MR's mission. I am so proud of you guys who have all those cloaking skills and aggression mechanics knowledge. It may be a mistake to take it for granted that some of us are not skilled in other areas as well, including anti pirate skills AND cloaking V. Don't take it for granted that, just because we are 'care bears', that we can't hold our own. .
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.28 15:14:00 - [363] Originally by: Tesh Sevateem Oh, and stealing is a profession isn't it? yes professional cat burglars as a matter of fact. You should look up Charles Peace, one of the few RL villains that Sherlock Holmes sought after. That or watch masterminds, damn good show. Originally by: Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.28 15:15:00 - [364] Originally by: HottyChick Originally by: THE L0CK Somebody get me some sandbags, They be predicting flash floods from the amount of tears in this thread! Whats happened to ur face? Had to put a mask on due to the amount of ** MR's are spewing, why do you ask? Originally by:** Whitehound If I think, but I do not.
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.08.28 15:53:00 - [365] Originally by: Roozter I am so proud of you guys who have all those cloaking skills and aggression mechanics knowledge. It may be a mistake to take it for granted that some of us are not skilled in other areas as well, including anti pirate skills AND cloaking V. Don't take it for granted that, just because we are 'care bears', that we can't hold our own. . I never take anything in this game for granted. I always assume that the other guy knows what he is doing. I always think the mission runners we go after are just alts of some big bad 0.0 PvP corp. Usually that isn't the case, but it is always best to be prepared for doggy doo to hit the fan. I'll say this much for having a character in Privateers for 5 months and especially for that last massive war dec in high sec before the "P" nerf, I have always treated high sec like low sec. Do your worse Mr. Mission Runner, I doubt very much you could surprise me with anything you do short of bringing a dread/carrier/titan into High Sec. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.28 16:05:00 - [366] Originally by: Traidor Disloyal Originally by: Roozter I am so proud of you guys who have all those cloaking skills and aggression mechanics knowledge. It may be a mistake to take it for granted that some of us are not skilled in other areas as well, including anti pirate skills AND cloaking V. Don't take it for granted that, just because we are 'care bears', that we can't hold our own. . I never take anything in this game for granted. I always assume that the other guy knows what he is doing. I always think the mission runners we go after are just alts of some big bad 0.0 PvP corp. Usually that isn't the case, but it is always best to be prepared for doggy doo to hit the fan. I'll say this much for having a character in Privateers for 5 months and especially for that last massive war dec in high sec before the "P" nerf, I have always treated high sec like low sec. Do your worse Mr. Mission Runner, I doubt very much you could surprise me with anything you do short of bringing a dread/carrier/titan into High Sec. We can't do our best, Concord holds your hand remember?
Scrym Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.08.28 16:27:00 - [367] Originally by: Roozter Unless they said you will now be flagged when you take something that don't belong to you. Then you would not agree with them, right? I for one am not you and if CCP changes something in the game I don't agree or disagree, I just accept it. If the game ceases to be fun for me I'll stop playing, not run to the forum with my sense of entitlement and cheeto stains in tow.
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.08.28 16:30:00 - [368] Edited by: Traidor Disloyal on 28/08/2009 16:31:53 Originally by: Roozter We can't do our best, Concord holds your hand remember? War dec me and Concord will play no role. If you have the teeth, and really hate what we do to mission runners and feel like doing something about it, the corp I belong to is right under my name. We are not part of an Alliance so the war dec fee should be affordable for you. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
FOl2TY8 Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.08.28 16:36:00 - [369] I'll take a war-dec too please. And some curly fries ---------- This post brought to you by the worst PVP'er in Eve
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.08.28 17:55:00 - [370] Edited by: Kerfira on 28/08/2009 17:55:55 Originally by: Roozter Concord holds your hand remember? Of cause they come to the aid when you start griefing innocent salvagers, just as they come to your help if someone starts shooting at you. If you don't like that, well, you could move to 0.0 where you can shoot at anyone who salvages space flotsam... In high-sec however, people have to behave according to CONCORD and game rules. This includes that griefers like you are not allowed to run around shooting people practising their legitimate profession. My guess is you're also one of the people throwing a temper-tantrum when you loose a game of cards Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Amarrian Warrior	Posted - 2009.08.28 19:38:00 - [371] http://9bf7e8rzs7nagxc81cjevayjzj.hop.clickbank.net/ Learn how to make billions!!!!!! easy isk
Aklari	Posted - 2009.08.28 21:31:00 - [372] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 28/08/2009 17:55:55 Originally by: Roozter Concord holds your hand remember? Of cause they come to the aid when you start griefing innocent salvagers, just as they come to your help if someone starts shooting at you. If you don't like that, well, you could move to 0.0 where you can shoot at anyone who salvages space flotsam... In high-sec however, people have to behave according to CONCORD and game rules. This includes that griefers like you are not allowed to run around shooting people practising their legitimate profession. My guess is you're also one of the people throwing a temper-tantrum when you loose a game of cards I think you are confused as to who the griefer is, troll.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.08.28 21:53:00 - [373] Edited by: Kerfira on 28/08/2009 21:53:45 Originally by: Aklari I think you are confused as to who the griefer is, troll. If player A is using a game feature that is working without bugs and is working EXACTLY as the games creators intend, and player B wants to foil that by non-sanctioned means, player B is by definition the griefer. Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Originally by: CCP Prism X ...If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding... Have a nice day Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.28 21:58:00 - [374] Sometimes I feel as if I am the one griefed. All I want to do is explore and play with my probes and sometimes my probes takes me into certain sights that have floating wrecks and sometimes just my mere presence has people telling me how worthless I am and they say things, bad things, about my momma who I love dearly. They throw insults and temper tantrums, making threats both in game and out of, all the while I haven't even done anything yet. Why we have even seen some of these acts in this very thread. Now that if griefing.
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.08.28 23:17:00 - [375] Originally by: Roozter If the freelaoder is (appropriately) flagged for coming into your mission and stealing from your mission then you are given the green to make the attempt at fighting for what is yours without the space cops blowing you away. I do believe that this would be a deterrent. I would almost guarantee it. You are wrong. That happens very commonly now. Even though I don't have a gank ship waiting, I've learned that MRs are afraid of loosing their mission ship and wont' shoot you and so I'm free to loot whatever loot I want. Why would a MR who has probably invested over a billion isk into his mission ship risk it by firing on a looter in a frigate who stole some unknown loot from a can? They know most of the people looting are trying to bait the MR, so if they are smart, they won't shoot.
TheMaster42 Lobster Gazelle Unicorn	Posted - 2009.08.28 23:47:00 - [376] Originally by: g0ggalor ...if they are smart, they won't shoot. Originally by: Roozter ...Don't take it for granted that, just because we are 'care bears', that we can't hold our own. You've never actually had to deal with a skilled ninja salvager before, have you Roozter?
Brechan Skene	Posted - 2009.08.29 00:07:00 - [377] Edited by: Brechan Skene on 29/08/2009 00:10:29 I hate to say this but when salvaging first came out you were required to remove the loot before you were able to access the salvage. This caused numerous ambush situations for care bears, when the pirates waited in cloak ship for you to turn up and tried to salvage the wreck, you had to take the loot first thus getting flagged. They then targeted you and proceeded to kill you. Obviously with this fact you complained, whined and screamed to CCP for it to be changed and CCP granted your wish, like they did when you whined about the bad men taking your ore. However you achieved the right to access the loot without the need to be flagged, this decision also created the ninja salvaging problem as well. So far your great care bear screaming and crying has created can flipping and subsequently ninja salvaging, would you like to create more tactics for the pirates However, I am a mission runner and I do lvl 4's to get access to faction ships and get cash for some Pew Pew. I have never been ninja salvaged. Why is that, I adapt, I actively adjust to the ninja salvaging problem and I definitely do not do my mission in a mission hub with the other 400 lemmings. I do not ninja salvage, can flip or engage in pirate activities, if you have any doubt look up the details of my character in-game. Also I post with my main, can I say the same for you
Captain Gorlok Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.08.29 05:22:00 - [378] After reading all of this whinning, I finally made a trip out to Emol to see if I could find any of these BAD Ninjas (so called all kinds of nasty names in this thread) but didn't see a one all day long MRing the L4 agent there. Finally, some guy warps in just as I finished off salvaging the last BS and had to warp out from aggro. Off loaded my loot and came back to an empty pocket. Shortly after I killed off the remaining BSs and salvaged them, here he comes back again just as I'm warping out and leaving him the frigs and some CS.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.08.29 08:41:00 - [379] Originally by: Captain Gorlok After reading all of this whinning, I finally made a trip out to Emol to see if I could find any of these BAD Ninjas (so called all kinds of nasty names in this thread) but didn't see a one all day long MRing the L4 agent there. In general you only see ninja's if you're greedy and do missions in one of the main mission hubs for those last few LP. In essence, it's a perfect example of EVE's risk/reward equation. You get bigger reward, but also run a bigger risk. The funny thing is, that even thought you get more LP in the mission hubs, your total reward is lower Those LP will be for a corp with so many mission runners that the LP will be significantly lower value than if you find a quiet little system where the corp offers some specific valuable items. Pretty funny to think that all the whiners in here could avoid ninja's AND earn more money if they just did a little research and moved to another slightly lower quality agent At the moment, I get about 2400 ISK/LP, so I don't CARE that I may get 1000 LP less for a top-LP mission.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.29 14:13:00 - [380] Originally by: Brechan Skene Edited by: Brechan Skene on 29/08/2009 00:10:29 I hate to say this but when salvaging first came out you were required to remove the loot before you were able to access the salvage. This caused numerous ambush situations for care bears, when the pirates waited in cloak ship for you to turn up and tried to salvage the wreck, you had to take the loot first thus getting flagged. They then targeted you and proceeded to kill you. Obviously with this fact you complained, whined and screamed to CCP for it to be changed and CCP granted your wish, like they did when you whined about the bad men taking your ore. However you achieved the right to access the loot without the need to be flagged, this decision also created the ninja salvaging problem as well. So far your great care bear screaming and crying has created can flipping and subsequently ninja salvaging, would you like to create more tactics for the pirates No need to hate to say anything - it needs to be said, and certainly by someone other than a ninja or a can flipper. Some cursory research would show anybody that somewhere around half of my corp's kills are MRs that shot at us because we yoinked some loot for the expressed purpose of picking a fight and then ganking their ship. I'm not saying that we do this all the time or that all of us do it, or that our corporation is some kind of MR-ganking dynamo. I'm more than happy on my own to merely take salvage. But all the braying about making ninjas turn red for salvaging is nothing but another foot-bullet. There's no long-term, big-picture thought behind it; and it's clear those who are asking for it have not learned the lessons of the past as they relate to the practice of can-flipping and so forth.
Kortec Minmatar Havoc Violence and Chaos	Posted - 2009.08.29 17:14:00 - [381] Ninja's don't bother me at all... if I have one red blinky to me... as long as I am aligned to a station lol... I will pop him, but if he's salvaging... I'll just pop the loot's. Simple as. Can't get everything your way so no point in moaning about it. Just suck up and get on with it. - Kortec
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.29 19:06:00 - [382] Originally by: Conrad Lionhart Edit: Your post explains why ninja-salvaging is here to stay, just as how it is possible to grief or attack miners, or even pod-kill people. It's part of the open-ended PvP nature of the sandbox. I don't think anyone is disputing that. But I think the bigger issue here is why ninja-salvaging doesn't suffer in-game consequences like stealing the container that contains your ore. Consequence for what? What they are doing is not illegal, and they are not stealing anything....
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.29 19:33:00 - [383] Edited by: Mad Maulkin on 29/08/2009 19:35:14 Originally by: Roozter Trying to make the argument that (salvage) is not the rightful property of the pilot who created it is pretty lame no matter what the CCP rule is. What about the Miner who puts the stuff in a can until his hauler gets there to pick it up? I suppose you think you have the rights to that too? What about the guy who plays the market and has his stuff hauled hither and yon, is that your stuff too? He didn't create it, he just purchased it. trying to argue that it is, now that's pretty lame... since its so clearly the opposite And excelent exampels... Since you are talking about items it took an action to make, miner uses lasers, trader pays money... Salvage is made after you ues a salvager on it, untill then its a free floating item in space, not disimilar to roids, you have allready been paid for blowing it up, in rats its called bounties, on faction navies its tags... the wrecks are junk with no particular ownership So perhaps what they should do is open wrecks for tractoring for all, if they are empty... just to clear up that little discrepancy...
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2009.08.29 20:14:00 - [384] <sarcasm>I should be able to shoot people who mine asteroid I'm mining. I shot lasers at it first--that means it's MINE!</sarcasm> The concept is very simple: Salvage does not belong to you until it's in your cargo hold.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.08.29 21:10:00 - [385] Originally by: Roozter We can't do our best, Concord holds your hand remember? You know that you dont have to deal with this handicap in 80% of the map, right?
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.30 18:08:00 - [386] Originally by: g0ggalor Originally by: Roozter If the freelaoder is (appropriately) flagged for coming into your mission and stealing from your mission then you are given the green to make the attempt at fighting for what is yours without the space cops blowing you away. I do believe that this would be a deterrent. I would almost guarantee it. You are wrong. That happens very commonly now. Even though I don't have a gank ship waiting, I've learned that MRs are afraid of loosing their mission ship and wont' shoot you and so I'm free to loot whatever loot I want. Why would a MR who has probably invested over a billion isk into his mission ship risk it by firing on a looter in a frigate who stole some unknown loot from a can? They know most of the people looting are trying to bait the MR, so if they are smart, they won't shoot. I don't believe I would bring an MAC-10 to a fist fight. If you guys were (appropriately) flagged then it would be worth our while to do the same thing you guys do. Bring a fleet and bait you. I would not bait you in a Marauder if I were preparing for pvp. I don't know a lot about pvp. but I am pretty sure the basic 'rule of thumb' applies. Don't bring anything you can't afford to lose. The same goes for running missions. I can't afford to lose a Marauder so I don't bring one. Don't own one anyway. I have spent too much time trolling and writing for/about something that is a mute issue. CCP says Concord will shoot me if I try to fight for my stuff. That's all there is to it. I can't say how it was before all the changes because I was not here then. If they made changes to the benefit of the MR then I am proud of them. They didn't take it quite far enough though. Somebody told me yesterday that they don't flag freeloaders because of 'LAG'. The wrecks create lag and CCP is more than happy to have the freeloaders out there to help clean up, you know, like a Carp in the river. I don't know if that is true. Stalk/steal/freeload away. I don't care. Yeah, I resign from my trolling position today so that I can go and make US some isk running missions. We ALL know that it is sanctioned thievery. End of story. What else needs to be said or whined about? And that is correct sir, I am not stupid enough to troll with my main. .
Voridor Malevolence	Posted - 2009.08.30 20:45:00 - [387] Edited by: Voridor Malevolence on 30/08/2009 20:46:16 Originally by: Roozter Yeah, I resign from my whining position today good. great. get lost.
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.30 22:39:00 - [388] Originally by: Roozter CCP says Concord will shoot me if I try to fight for my stuff. That's all there is to it. ... Elizabeth - it's the big one! See, not so difficult after all, is it? Originally by: Roozter We ALL know that it is sanctioned thievery. End of story. What else needs to be said or whined about? Not even the premise needs to be whined about, but that didn't keep you from whining about it - so by all means don't let me dissuade you from finding something else.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.31 01:59:00 - [389] Originally by: Roozter And that is correct sir, I am not stupid enough to troll with my main. . Seems to be turning into a common occurrence for MR's who speak out against Ninja's. "Make them flag so I can shoot down those cowards!" "Is this your main" "Heeeeeeell noooooo, I don't want them coming after me!"
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.31 09:04:00 - [390] Originally by: Roozter Stalk/steal/freeload away. I don't care. Yeah, I resign from my trolling position today so that I can go and make US some isk running missions. We ALL know that it is sanctioned thievery. End of story. What else needs to be said or whined about? And that is correct sir, I am not stupid enough to troll with my main. . Hey Pal, what we ALL know, is that is not sanctioned thievery, it might feel like, but it's excatly the opposite i'd say... Just cause you disagree, don't make you right. **es me of when people claim to posses the only truth... this discussion would be much more constructive if one actually debated the merits of one solution or the other... But those that make objektive arguments on why one or the other should be, they are never heard, its much more interesting to jump on the trolls, and flame away, i know i have, but what else can you do when no one responds to your more moderate posts, then you have no choice but to jump on the flaming wagon... I know that going from a standpoint of being a MR carebear, that still feel its a valid game mechanic, that is "working as intended" to quote CCP (although you should be able to scan for the wrecks aswell, in my book...), i would not go down the path of the ninja, since it's not how i work, i don't like to step on toes, even if i'm allowed... But after observing this 13 page long Flameing from Selvrigheous MR, claiming the highground on the only grounds than that they believe they are right, and that the rest of us, including CCP and the game is wrong, i went from not really sympathaising with you (MR), to really loating you... But if its one thing i HATE, it's people trying to tell me they know best, and that they know that i am wrong, when i KNOW i am NOT wrong. But i also KNOW i am NOT right! There is no right and wrong in this, and where we quote CCP, its not to show that we are right, but to tell you that you are so far out in claiming that we are wrong! For every post with a MR telling us that "we" KNOW it's stealing, "we" KNOW its wrong, "CCP ed up and is covering up", a part of the nice girl in me died, and i started to feel what i imagine the Ninjas feel! there where times i felt like fireing up my scan ship and go hunting for salvage... to stick one up the...something... of those who belive they are so entitled.... You can argue to change a game mechainc all you want, its your perogative, and that is what the forums are for. To present your views in a constructive and straight forward manner... But when you tell me you'r right, and i'm wrong, you! You lost the argument... Cause that is no discussion, its no argument... its empty talk, and it gets you nowhere... I'm probably putting my foot in my mouth and flaming on things i have done myself, but sometimes you just get so caught up in the utterly STUPID things people say sometimes,and you just type away in blind [rage]. But i know i have not been close to as patronizing and selrandising as some of the cuddely MR carebares in this thread... Yes Roozter i am looking at you , you ***! So, to sum up: I'd like the mechanincs to stay as they are, cause they fit in nicely with the game. Those that say the wrecks belong to you, i say they don't any more than teh roid you mine is yours. My opinion is, that when you blew up the rat, you got paid in bounties, or with tags for faction navies... I thing the wrecks are not something you create, but is a byproduct of a fight. It's not like loot, cause you cant just vacume it to your cargohold, it needs to be activated by a module, just like you must to kill ships, mine roids, hack cans, do archeology and what ever you do to the myriad of things i space, that originaly dont "belong to you"... This is my opinion, and i like the game the way it is now... (lets keep this thread going for 13 more pages, we might get a sticky)
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.31 09:13:00 - [391] i'd just like to apologice for all the gramatical errors, the misspelling and the mumbeling and stumbling... i don't apologice for the name calling... you patronizing ****head... Signd a Carebear
Undecillion	Posted - 2009.08.31 10:04:00 - [392] I think what fuels this subject is CCP's lack of a real explanation behind their intentions. We've all heard "Works as intended." I went looking for the meaning behind these words as related to this subject and learned that allowing others to scoop up salvage alleviates some draw on their servers. Ninja salvaging reduces systemwide lag and for that reason alone, I doubt we'll see a change.
Blue Harrier Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.31 10:36:00 - [393] If as we all know salvaging wrecks is æworking as intendedÆ then may I put forward a couple of recommendations to CCP; 1. They change the login popup that states that æyellow cans and wrecks belong to someone else and you will get shot at by the ownerÆ to æyellow cans and LOOT in wrecks belongs to someone elseÆ. 2. That wrecks when emptied of loot change from yellow to white (to signify no ownership) and that anyone can use a tractor beam on them. 3. Finally they remove the popup message warning you the wreck belongs to someone else when you try and tractor beam a yellow wreck (note you should not be able to tractor a full wreck only empty ones, see above). I know that would make a ninjaÆs job easier but it would also remove the ambiguity for others who arrive at a site and find loads of wrecks just lying in space with no-one salvaging said wrecks. If a wreck is white salvage away.
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.08.31 10:42:00 - [394] Edited by: Kerfira on 31/08/2009 10:42:27 Originally by: Undecillion I think what fuels this subject is CCP's lack of a real explanation behind their intentions. We've all heard "Works as intended." I went looking for the meaning behind these words as related to this subject and learned that allowing others to scoop up salvage alleviates some draw on their servers. Ninja salvaging reduces systemwide lag and for that reason alone, I doubt we'll see a change. Some handy quotes for you: CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.31 10:58:00 - [395] BTW, how to make a non inflamatory "change salvaging" thread! http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1165292 I totaly disagree with him, but it was a WELL TYPED and WELL THOUGHT THROUGH POST... Whiners, read and learn... - Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.31 12:40:00 - [396] Originally by: Mad Maulkin i'd just like to apologice for all the gramatical errors, the misspelling and the mumbeling and stumbling... i don't apologice for the name calling... you patronizing ****head... Signd a Carebear If I ever scan down and warp to a mission and it turns out this person is the MR, I'm warping off to the next hit. She keeps everything.
gnarff	Posted - 2009.08.31 12:44:00 - [397] I don't understand the distinction between the loot and the wreck, the modules that drop in the loot (as I see it) are the modules that the ship was using and therefore it's salvage, it's just intact rather than being itty bitty pieces, both should be free to take, or both should be flagged imo.. get it right CCP. I mission run, and have been ninja'd and if they get to the salvage before me, then I accept it.. but that's not what's happening here... they are high-sec pirates working collectively (and good for them for doing it tbh), they take the loot hoping the MR will shoot, get rights to shoot back, warp out and back in in their PVP fitted ship (plus support/logistics friends) to take you out.. Until MRs wise up and realise that they have to do the same to overcome this, and stop running around blinkered in their solo gaming world and ally up and run the same systems so that they can shout out/fleet up to gank the pirates then this argue will forever go on and on... play them at their own game, and who knows, you may have some fun at the same time... Gnarff..
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.31 13:53:00 - [398] Originally by: gnarff Edited by: gnarff on 31/08/2009 12:54:38 Edited by: gnarff on 31/08/2009 12:50:46 I don't understand the distinction between the loot and the wreck, the modules that drop in the loot (as I see it) are the modules that the ship was using and therefore it's salvage, it's just intact rather than being itty bitty pieces, both should be free to take, or both should be flagged imo.. get it right CCP. If it's a mission item that the pirate takes then they should take hits against standing for the NPC corp and faction that the mission was set by, or allowed to turn it in to the NPC corp for a reduced reward... Although that's prolly not what people want to here, but it's logical, as the NPC corp has got what it asked for, just not by the person who took the mission.. (although I would be against it tbh). Actually that is a funny idea, getting a message from the mission agent saying "i see you got the item we are looking for" and you can turn it in for like only the original reward, not the bonus or LP store, but no standing gain, and then the MR talk to the agent and he says, "we fixed your mission in some other way", and you the mission ends in a "tie", no gain, no loss! As to the loot/salvage thing, i see it as, loot = intact modules you can just take out, no action required, while Salvage = is not an item at all but space debris that you need to interact with an action and a module, not unlike roids, and hence no ownership... the wreck, if it belongs to anyone, is the one who owned the ship... and noone likes them anyway, so who cares that you salvage their stuff... What i propose is making tractoring possible for all, on empty wrecks... That's be a nut for faction navies, since they are all full of tags, but you cant get everything! Originally by: Mel Lifera Originally by: Mad Maulkin i'd just like to apologice for all the gramatical errors, the misspelling and the mumbeling and stumbling... i don't apologice for the name calling... you patronizing ***head... Signd a Carebear If I ever scan down and warp to a mission and it turns out this person is the MR, I'm warping off to the next hit. She keeps everything. and: WHAT!!!! what kind of ninja are you! (thank you btw... does that go for the whole corp?) Mad Maulkin looks hopefully at Mel... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.31 13:58:00 - [399] oh, an btw, of you ever wonder what profanities was actually used, quote the person and the ** bleep is taken away... Originally by:** CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Haraukiae Youik	Posted - 2009.08.31 15:31:00 - [400] GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. quote] So? Remember when it used to be when people stole from your can you couldn't do anything? Intended game mechanic today, enought complaints and not an intended game mechanic. Eve is a rough place indeed, let me go into 0.0 sec with capital ships built in hi sec and claim* sections of nul sec for the Empire and we will see how rough a place EVE is.*
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.31 15:47:00 - [401] Originally by: Mad Maulkin Hey Pal, what we ALL know, is that is not sanctioned thievery, could you please stop putting GOD DAMN WORDS IN OUR MOUTHS! I'd say it's excatly the opposite ... Just cause you disagree, don't make you right. **es me of when people claim to posses the only truth... this discussion would be much more constructive if one actually debated the merits of one solution or the other... But those that make objektive arguments on why one or the other should be, they are never heard, its much more interesting to jump on the trolls, and flame away, i know i have, but what else can you do when no one responds to your more moderate posts, then you have no choice but to jump on the flaming wagon... I know that going from a standpoint of being a MR carebear, that still feel its a valid game mechanic, that is "working as intended" to quote CCP (although you should be able to scan for the wrecks aswell, in my book...), i would not go down the path of the ninja, since it's not how i work, i don't like to step on toes, even if i'm allowed... But after observing this 13 page long Flameing from Selvrigheous MR, claiming the highground on the only grounds than that they believe they are right, and that the rest of us, including CCP and the game is wrong, i went from not really sympathaising with you (MR), to really loating you... But if its one thing i HATE, it's people trying to tell me they know best, and that they know that i am wrong, when i KNOW i am NOT wrong. But i also KNOW i am NOT right! There is no right and wrong in this, and where we quote CCP, its not to show that we are right, but to tell you that you are so far out in claiming that we are wrong! For every post with a MR telling us that "we" KNOW it's stealing, "we" KNOW its wrong, "CCP ed up and is covering up", a part of the nice girl in me died, and i started to feel what i imagine the Ninjas feel! there where times i felt like fireing up my scan ship and go hunting for salvage... to stick one up the...something... of those who belive they are so entitled.... You can argue to change a game mechainc all you want, its your perogative, and that is what the forums are for. To present your views in a constructive and straight forward manner... But when you tell me you'r right, and i'm wrong, you! You lost the argument... Cause that is no discussion, its no argument... its empty talk, and it gets you nowhere... I'm probably putting my foot in my mouth and flaming on things i have done myself, but sometimes you just get so caught up in the utterly STUPID things people say sometimes,and you just type away in blind [rage]. But i know i have not been close to as patronizing and selrandising as some of the cuddely MR carebares in this thread... Yes Roozter i am looking at you , you ***! So, to sum up: I'd like the mechanincs to stay as they are, cause they fit in nicely with the game. Those that say the wrecks belong to you, i say they don't any more than teh roid you mine is yours. My opinion is, that when you blew up the rat, you got paid in bounties, or with tags for faction navies... I thing the wrecks are not something you create, but is a byproduct of a fight. It's not like loot, cause you cant just vacume it to your cargohold, it needs to be activated by a module, just like you must to kill ships, mine roids, hack cans, do archeology and what ever you do to the myriad of things i space, that originaly dont "belong to you"... This is my opinion, and i like the game the way it is now... After running this post through the Forrest Gump translator, I see that the poster has finally decided who she/he/it wants to ride with. It is amazing that Forrest Gump has given my words so much power over her/him that she/he actually loathes me. That is when she/he can see me through her/his rage. While MOST people in this thread seem to know which side of the fence they are on, there are those who seem to ægo with the majorityÆ no matter what it says about their character. Now, if the majority of posters on this thread were not in favor of free for all salvaging, would Forrest Gump side with them instead? Probably. After it was explained to me that this CCP rule was put in place simply to alleviate some of the lag caused by floating wrecks, I understood. The more I think about it, I actually agree, sort of. But then who cares whether I agree or not. It helps to know the reason(s) behind a controversial rule. Just saying that it is a rule is not enough sometimes.
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.08.31 16:06:00 - [402] Yesterday: Originally by: Roozter Somebody told me yesterday that they don't flag freeloaders because of 'LAG'. The wrecks create lag and CCP is more than happy to have the freeloaders out there to help clean up, you know, like a Carp in the river. I don't know if that is true. Today: Originally by: Roozter After it was explained to me that this CCP rule was put in place simply to alleviate some of the lag caused by floating wrecks, I understood. Keep posting this and people are going to start thinking that CCP only did this for lag. You got anything from CCP to back that up with? You know like a post on the forums or in a DEV Blog? I can make stuff up too. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.31 17:11:00 - [403] Originally by: Mad Maulkin and: WHAT!!!! what kind of ninja are you! (thank you btw... does that go for the whole corp?) *Mad Maulkin looks hopefully at Mel... I am a reasonable ninja. My corpmates on the other hand - who knows. It's an individual decision and I'm not in a policy-setting position. There's those who would do what I do, and those who wouldn't care. Our members are fairly autonomous as corporations go.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.08.31 17:15:00 - [404] I thought Roozter was done with this thread? Have you wardec'd those ninja corps yet so you can freely shoot at them with out Concorde intervention?
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.08.31 17:21:00 - [405] Edited by: Mel Lifera on 31/08/2009 17:22:13 Originally by: Roozter After running this post through the Forrest Gump translator, I see that the poster has finally decided who she/he/it wants to ride with. It is amazing that Forrest Gump has given my words so much power over her/him that she/he actually loathes me. That is when she/he can see me through her/his rage. While MOST people in this thread seem to know which side of the fence they are on, there are those who seem to ægo with the majorityÆ no matter what it says about their character. Now, if the majority of posters on this thread were not in favor of free for all salvaging, would Forrest Gump side with them instead? Probably. A personal principle of mine is that, in any case where someone either implicitly or explicitly insists that I have to choose between two non-exclusive points of view, I tend to choose against the person doing the insisting. Originally by: Roozter After it was explained to me that this CCP rule was put in place simply to alleviate some of the lag caused by floating wrecks, I understood. Sure about that? Yesterday you didn't know whether it was true or not. Originally by: Roozter The more I think about it, I actually agree, sort of. But then who cares whether I agree or not. I would say that doing things like declaring you're leaving the discussion and then returning, might lessen the weight your words carry with others, yes.
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.31 17:27:00 - [406] Originally by: Traidor Disloyal Yesterday: Originally by: Roozter Somebody told me yesterday that they don't flag freeloaders because of 'LAG'. The wrecks create lag and CCP is more than happy to have the freeloaders out there to help clean up, you know, like a Carp in the river. I don't know if that is true. Today: Originally by: Roozter After it was explained to me that this CCP rule was put in place simply to alleviate some of the lag caused by floating wrecks, I understood. Keep posting this and people are going to start thinking that CCP only did this for lag. You got anything from CCP to back that up with? You know like a post on the forums or in a DEV Blog? I can make stuff up too. What does "I don't know how true it is" mean to you? Makes sense to me though and I am just a "mindless MR". Obviously you are not content unless you are arguing about something. The above explanation suits me almost just fine. I couldn't really care less what suits you. BTW, I am not the only one who has said this in this topic. What difference does it make if I did make it up? (Although I didn't). Would it bother you to know that CCP did not have YOU in mind when they implemented the rule? Oh, I forgot, I don't care what suits you either way. I have all the time in the world to troll and nitpick too. It's my new hobby. Maybe CCP will end this thread and be done with it. Until they do, I will be here trolling just like you. .
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.08.31 17:35:00 - [407] Originally by: THE L0CK I thought Roozter was done with this thread? Have you wardec'd those ninja corps yet so you can freely shoot at them with out Concorde intervention? I think he meant he was just done for the day. And since it is a new day he is back. It really looks like he is in it for the fish since he admitted to not really contributing to the thread and just trolling to get people upset. No new war decs on my corp so I figure the dude is all bark and no bite. I think he is a closet ninja salvager and is just in denial. I do believe he will "come out of the closet" and announce to the Eve world that it feels good to ninja mission runners. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Mintala Arana Amarr	Posted - 2009.08.31 17:53:00 - [408] Originally by: Roozter Unless they said you will now be flagged when you take something that don't belong to you. Then you would not agree with them, right? Speaking for my alt, who ninjas from time to time, (when he's not AFKing Lvl 4 missions, which he also does): Right now, today, if I take something that doesn't belong to me I get an aggression flag set against me. The mission runner can shoot at me if they choose. Probably this would not be a good plan on the mission runner's part, as I would only steal from a mission runner if I were looking for a fight. Thus, I'd have a large scary gank ship in a nearby station. Or I'd have jumped into the mission runner's mission flying said large scary gank ship in the first place, and proceeded right to the stealing part... As it happens, though, I don't steal from mission runners. I only salvage wrecks. Now, I understand (as a mission runner) that the bits I pry off those wrecks have some value to the mission runner, but Concord has said that by law the first person to pry that bit loose is the owner of it. That's the in-game reasoning. The meta-game reasoning under which I operate is more like this: CCP has said repeatedly that there is no such thing as complete safety and isolation in EVE. (i.e. EVE is not "WoW in space".) Everything you do is part of a massive interaction with the other players of the game, and CCP wants to increase that interaction, not decrease it. CCP has also said repeatedly that salvage belongs to the person that retrieves it. The results of "ninja salvaging" are consistent with the "more player interaction" goal, so it makes a lot of sense to me. I'm doing what CCP wants, and so are you. Now, if I were "CCP Mintala", and I had some level of responsibility for this area, I'd probably be awfully happy at all the player interaction I see in all these threads on the subject of salvaging. Think about it...
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.31 17:56:00 - [409] Originally by: Traidor Disloyal Originally by: THE L0CK I thought Roozter was done with this thread? Have you wardec'd those ninja corps yet so you can freely shoot at them with out Concorde intervention? I think he meant he was just done for the day. And since it is a new day he is back. It really looks like he is in it for the fish since he admitted to not really contributing to the thread and just trolling to get people upset. No new war decs on my corp so I figure the dude is all bark and no bite. I think he is a closet ninja salvager and is just in denial. I do believe he will "come out of the closet" and announce to the Eve world that it feels good to ninja mission runners. No, I just had my Cheerios this morning. I wasn't going to run my mouth any more until Forrest Gump started slinging some pretty heavy insults again. And she/he is correct. If you quote someone you can see what the bleeps covered up. I do admit that a lot of my words were insulting as well, but not filth like Forrest Gumps words. None of mine were bleeped by the moderators. If I did offend people, (as intended at times), I apologize. A 'heat of the moment' thing. Plus the fact that I did not understand the ruling at the time. Shame on me for speaking before understanding. Got a quote on that? (he admitted to not really contributing to the thread and just trolling to get people upset). Didn't think so. One guy getting all of you upset? This thread was 9 or 10 pages old before I added my 2 cents. BTW, have any openings over there? I promise to conform.
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.31 18:27:00 - [410] Edited by: Mad Maulkin on 31/08/2009 18:29:02 Originally by: Roozter I wasn't going to run my mouth any more until Forrest Gump started slinging some pretty heavy insults again. And she/he is correct. If you quote someone you can see what the bleeps covered up. I do admit that a lot of my words were insulting as well, but not filth like Forrest Gumps words. None of mine were bleeped by the moderators. Yeah, only problem is i did not throw a single insult your way, thoug i will admit to using harsh languge... you see, a Roozter (mispelled as it is) is a c-o-c-k, as in C-o-c-k-e-r-a-l... i dont have one of those, so i am not to used with the word... but i can se how that was taken in the wrong way... I still think you are full of it, and most of that flame was ment for you. And thanks for the name, he was a good guy! Edit: and please link the lag comment, heard it before, but never seen anyone confirming its CCP Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Roozter	Posted - 2009.08.31 18:55:00 - [411] Originally by: Mad Maulkin Edited by: Mad Maulkin on 31/08/2009 18:29:02 Originally by: Roozter I wasn't going to run my mouth any more until Forrest Gump started slinging some pretty heavy insults again. And she/he is correct. If you quote someone you can see what the bleeps covered up. I do admit that a lot of my words were insulting as well, but not filth like Forrest Gumps words. None of mine were bleeped by the moderators. Yeah, only problem is i did not throw a single insult your way, thoug i will admit to using harsh languge... you see, a Roozter (mispelled as it is) is a c-o-c-k, as in C-o-c-k-e-r-a-l... i dont have one of those, so i am not to used with the word... but i can se how that was taken in the wrong way... I still think you are full of it, and most of that flame was ment for you. And thanks for the name, he was a good guy! Edit: and please link the lag comment, heard it before, but never seen anyone confirming its CCP Linkage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdsMqRaz2WY .
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.08.31 19:00:00 - [412] Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.08.31 19:31:00 - [413] Edited by: Traidor Disloyal on 31/08/2009 19:32:02 Originally by: Roozter If I did offend people, (as intended at times), I apologize. A 'heat of the moment' thing. Plus the fact that I did not understand the ruling at the time. Shame on me for speaking before understanding. I learned a long long long time ago (about 10 to 15 years) that slinging insults and cursing at people in a thread makes one look like a fool. And you don't have to eat crow at the end of the day. Being sarcastic, and being able to pull it off, on the other hand is kind of cool. I do slip up sometimes, but it is very rare. I have also learned not to take anything personal on any gaming forum. And if the rare occurrence does happen and I do get mad/upset at what someone posts I stop posting for a day to cool off. Originally by: Roozter BTW, have any openings over there? I promise to conform. You asking for a job? Be advised that a majority of people in the corp I belong to do not really hunt down mission runners to take their salvage. We mostly war dec corp/alliances in High Sec that have anywhere between 50 to 200 members listed in the attributes. We go after almost anybody. From the corp that says they are a PvP corp (who isn't) to the mission runner corp that actually does know more about PvP then the so-called PvP corp. We go after High Sec alliances that sometimes implode (or don't). And sometimes we get our asses handed to us. But considering that we operate mostly in High Sec we are looked down on by a majority of players. We are not ONE THREE THREE SEVEN. Heck, our CEO has been known to war dec a corp whose only misdeed was a member of said corp typing "oh noes" in local to something I said to another corp (who we were at war with) in local. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Mel Lifera Gallente Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.09.01 02:59:00 - [414] Originally by: Roozter I wasn't going to run my mouth any more until Forrest Gump started slinging some pretty heavy insults again. Of course you were. Who do you think you're kidding with these justifications? You've announced your exit from the thread a number of times and managed to return each time without needing an excuse - why start making them now? Originally by: Roozter If I did offend people, (as intended at times), I apologize. A 'heat of the moment' thing. Plus the fact that I did not understand the ruling at the time. Shame on me for speaking before understanding. One guy getting all of you upset? This thread was 9 or 10 pages old before I added my 2 cents. And yet you've earlier indicated that you think we're here because of you. That doesn't make much sense - and neither does your "getting you all upset" notion, considering you're the one talking about "heat of the moment" actions on your part. But nevermind - I don't see much reason so far to believe that you ever do anything you say you're going to do; but if you feel like giving it a try just once, maybe you can finally go away and let the grownups talk.
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.09.01 03:58:00 - [415] Jesus ****ing christ is this thread still going?
Voridor Malevolence	Posted - 2009.09.01 09:05:00 - [416] Originally by: Roozter But then who cares whether I agree or not. no one take a hike
Zartanic	Posted - 2009.09.01 10:32:00 - [417] I have no problem with it but its certainly strange they allow it without a flag. Its the only game mechanic I can think of that is PVP with no consequences. It goes against all that EVE stands for really. CCP are happy with a new and popular profession in the game and I assume don't want rig prices to be too high as they knew about their small/medium update months ago. It also pushes a few mission runners to WH space, nul and low sec which is not a bad thing. So expediency won the day. The wreck is player created, the contents are owned yet the wreck is not? Pure bullcrap. There is a reason why CCP allow this but its not because they think its 'the right and obvious thing to do' its for unrelated reasons.
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.09.02 11:45:00 - [418] Originally by: g0ggalor Jesus **ing christ is this thread still going? Yes! and we are very proud of it! Is it like if you reach some milestone, you get instant sticky? For pure stamina! Carebear for life Originally by:** CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Nishachara Minmatar Special Operations Corp	Posted - 2009.09.02 11:58:00 - [419] Oh...for the love of gods...stop this tread... Salvage is not stealing and just STFU... I do missions and sometimes some ninjas came in and salvage my wrecks ..what can i do :P Fine by me... Sometimes when i am bored i scan somebody in a mission and salvage his wrecks... And its Ok... Its a sandbox game and everybody plays the way thy like it, so you who are bothered with ninjas get over it or play some other less sandbox and more straightforward game, and dont try to turn sandbox into fairy little princes land... Because that will not be EvE anymore... Cant you people discuss some more constructive things ? :P
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.09.02 12:00:00 - [420] Originally by: Nishachara Oh...for the love of gods...stop this tread... Salvage is not stealing and just STFU... I do missions and sometimes some ninjas came in and salvage my wrecks ..what can i do :P Fine by me... Sometimes when i am bored i scan somebody in a mission and salvage his wrecks... And its Ok... Its a sandbox game and everybody plays the way thy like it, so you who are bothered with ninjas get over it or play some other less sandbox and more straightforward game, and dont try to turn sandbox into fairy little princes land... Because that will not be EvE anymore... Cant you people discuss some more constructive things ? :P Mad Maulkin nods in agreement... But i want to keep discussin this some more... Originally by:* CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.09.03 09:32:00 - [421] What people! did you all go to the other Salvage threads?? we are one of the longest out there, lets keep the discussion going! Adding a new prespective to those claiming the wrecks are theirs since they killed it, actually id say the wreck belongs to the one who owned the ship,and since he is a rat bastard, no one cares about his rights, and its a free for all on the salvage... Same mechanics for Player wrecks, same mechanic for RL salvage, wreck your car or someone wrecks it, it belongs to you, not the drunk who smashed into you... leave the wreck on the side of the road, a licensed salvager can come pick it up! EvE has declared you need no license! Go salvage! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world
debbie harrio	Posted - 2009.09.03 11:29:00 - [422] Edited by: debbie harrio on 03/09/2009 11:29:43 Before anyone accuses me of crying, I'm not, I have absolutely no problem with what the ninja's do, I do it myself sometimes, it's fun and gives a sense of competition with minimum risk although the silly ninja who stole from my towed container the other day soon found out the flagging rules do work. Maybe a compromise solution could be to up the rate of metal scraps in the salvage, everyone hates it and it takes up loads of cargo space meaning that the ninja's would have to micromanage their cargo holds and if they got one after the other, well that hold's them up until another jet can is ready,giving the mision runner time to salvage more wrecks.
Nishachara Minmatar Special Operations Corp	Posted - 2009.09.03 11:29:00 - [423] In RL in some (eastern) european countries there are some population of nomadic people without a country called gypsies... There are some of them in my country too..and what do they do often ? They go around in their little van and collect old metal thingies, old home appliances, parts of cars etc... and what do they do with that ? ...sell to a scrapyard for a profit That is RL ninja salvage :D Some years ago (it was on TV even) they dismantled few hundred years old metal bridge (it was from austro-hungarian monarchy or something) that is of some historical value ..and sold it at scrapyard .. lol So ninjas are everywhere around you (yes even that nice old bum who is collecting(salvaging) bottles to sell them... ) ... why not in internet spaceship game ? ...and just for the purpose of discussion...would be possible to steal salvage in a wh if you are organized well (some people kill sleeper sites with one ship and then come back in another for salvaging)...hard but not impossible..what do you think ?
debbie harrio	Posted - 2009.09.03 11:38:00 - [424] Originally by: Nishachara ...and just for the purpose of discussion...would be possible to steal salvage in a wh if you are organized well (some people kill sleeper sites with one ship and then come back in another for salvaging)...hard but not impossible..what do you think ? That would be mega profitable, cloaked salvager, wait for WH dweller to finish killing the sleepers and shoot off to change ships then decloak and nick all the loot/salvage...It would be like a WTF moment for the confused WH resident as you don't show up in local nor dir scan if cloaked.
Nishachara Minmatar Special Operations Corp	Posted - 2009.09.03 11:45:00 - [425] Edited by: Nishachara on 03/09/2009 11:45:03 yes...exacly... But it would be pretty hard to pull off (and fun too)... Maybe even if it is lone explorer, salvager could have some ECM support(clocked scorpion ??) so the explorer could not lock either ninja or his own wrecks...
Lady Spank Amarr Sekret Kool Klubb	Posted - 2009.09.03 11:47:00 - [426] omg dont clock scorpions, they are already running at max cpu output The quality of my replies is directly related to the QQuality of the opÆs comments
Nishachara Minmatar Special Operations Corp	Posted - 2009.09.03 11:50:00 - [427] Edited by: Nishachara on 03/09/2009 11:49:58 Just an idea...(tbh i dont have experience with scorpion) for even more WTF effect... ..anyway server just started..
Miko Makkara	Posted - 2009.09.03 11:53:00 - [428] CCP allows it couse they cant handle lag it creates if every thing floating in space would belong to someone. If you really want CCP to act on these things do something they notice. Cancel account sub and write reason. Remove all tags in wrecks or make all of it tagged. Why would any of those be difrent? Some games do have tags on all but they dissipate in some time (15min) would that be solution for lag?
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.09.03 13:55:00 - [429] Originally by: Miko Makkara CCP allows it couse they cant handle lag it creates I need to start making things up. Did you get this lag crap from the previous page or did you just pull it out your behind? Show us someone other then another player said this (you know, a DEV). ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Stealnutz Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.09.03 15:15:00 - [430] Originally by: Miko Makkara CCP allows it couse they cant handle lag it creates if every thing floating in space would belong to someone. If you really want CCP to act on these things do something they notice. Cancel account sub and write reason. Remove all tags in wrecks or make all of it tagged. Why would any of those be difrent? Some games do have tags on all but they dissipate in some time (15min) would that be solution for lag? I wish to unsubscribe from your newsletter. It started off with promise but has gone downhill of late.
debbie harrio	Posted - 2009.09.03 21:24:00 - [431] Has anyone thought about my solution of increasing the metal scrap rate in salvage, this would affect both the MR and the ninja but it would be more detrimental to the ninjas due to their tiny cargo hold, all salvage that is obtained from wrecks would have a large amount of metal scraps in it, if you think about it this is true with RL wrecks, to get the decent stuff you have to sift thru a lot of ****e.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.09.03 21:30:00 - [432] Originally by: debbie harrio Has anyone thought about my solution of increasing the metal scrap rate in salvage, this would affect both the MR and the ninja but it would be more detrimental to the ninjas due to their tiny cargo hold, all salvage that is obtained from wrecks would have a large amount of metal scraps in it, if you think about it this is true with RL wrecks, to get the decent stuff you have to sift thru a lot of ****e. I think it would be enjoyable to hear MR's whine about having salvage nerfed so they get more worthless scrapmetal and not those juicy components that make them a few million in a round. In other words you do not amputate an arm for a cut on the finger.
debbie harrio	Posted - 2009.09.03 22:05:00 - [433] Edited by: debbie harrio on 03/09/2009 22:07:34 Originally by: THE L0CK I think it would be enjoyable to hear MR's whine about having salvage nerfed so they get more worthless scrapmetal and not those juicy components that make them a few million in a round. In other words you do not amputate an arm for a cut on the finger. I wouldn't be bothered at all with the metal scraps as on a marauder they have a big cargo hold so the time penalty for jet canning isn't so critical but it would pee off the ninja, maybe even the tears and lolz out. BTW I wasn't on about nerfing salvage but just on about upping metal scrap rates on all wrecks as it would be in RL.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.09.03 22:13:00 - [434] Originally by: debbie harrio Edited by: debbie harrio on 03/09/2009 22:07:34 Originally by: THE L0CK I think it would be enjoyable to hear MR's whine about having salvage nerfed so they get more worthless scrapmetal and not those juicy components that make them a few million in a round. In other words you do not amputate an arm for a cut on the finger. I wouldn't be bothered at all with the metal scraps as on a marauder they have a big cargo hold so the time penalty for jet canning isn't so critical but it would pee off the ninja, maybe even the tears and lolz out. BTW I wasn't on about nerfing salvage but just on about upping metal scrap rates on all wrecks as it would be in RL. you are missing 2 critical points. 1) Even since they beefed up scraps so they are worth their weight in Trit, its still crap on the market. If your removed the good components and replace it with more scrap you'll only make MR's want to salvage less. 2) Salvage ninja's do tend to fly larger ships. My cruiser packs a 1500 cargo hold (which is pretty close to that marauder) so I can salvage AND steal, cause you know, some of us actually do that contrary to popular forum whinage belief. Sure it may not effect you but some MR's really enjoy selling ward consoles or nano plates for a good chunk of change. Like I said, you are proposing to amputate an arm for a cut on the finger.
debbie harrio	Posted - 2009.09.03 22:19:00 - [435] Edited by: debbie harrio on 03/09/2009 22:21:49 Edited by: debbie harrio on 03/09/2009 22:21:12 I am not on about reducing the rest of the salvage, just upping the scraps..... BTW ninjas don't bother me so don't think you are debating with someone that whines, I ninja myself. the usual ninja ship BTW is a small fast frig/cruiser it has to be, you can't use tractors, I use a stabber.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.09.03 22:30:00 - [436] Originally by: debbie harrio Edited by: debbie harrio on 03/09/2009 22:21:49 Edited by: debbie harrio on 03/09/2009 22:21:12 I am not on about reducing the rest of the salvage, just upping the scraps..... BTW ninjas don't bother me so don't think you are debating with someone that whines, I ninja myself. the usual ninja ship BTW is a small fast frig/cruiser it has to be, you can't use tractors, I use a stabber. So how do you propose to up scraps while not reducing any other material when the amount of wrecks remain the same? And I use a Magnate and a Omen, whats your point?
debbie harrio	Posted - 2009.09.03 22:33:00 - [437] It's code, easy to up one part of salvage without affecting other parts. Is this the beginning of ninja tears lol.....
Boink'urr Minmatar Wasserette De Tarthorst	Posted - 2009.09.03 22:37:00 - [438] Originally by: Soliscout Edited by: Soliscout on 09/08/2009 20:59:07 Edited by: Soliscout on 09/08/2009 20:58:49 Edited by: Soliscout on 09/08/2009 20:58:07 believe me you do not want the system to be changed....otherwise you could buy a new cnr/golem/wtfcarebearmobile every two days since any decent ninja salvager just wants you to agress him, so he can blow you to pieces also posting in a rare ninja salvage whine The salvager can already steal from your wrecks allowing you to shoot him. He doesn't need a change in the system for that. But no MR in their right mind would since Eve has this weird difference in PVE/PVP fits. The slavager, if prepared, will usually steal in a PVP fitted ship while facing a much weaker PVE fit. And then brag about how cool he is cuz 'he dares to steal'. Cool bean pirate breaking Cartman's balls. Go for the fat kid D:
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.09.03 22:40:00 - [439] Originally by: debbie harrio It's code, easy to up one part of salvage without affecting other parts. Is this the beginning of ninja tears lol..... So you are offering more items to go into the cargo hold when people salvage. By your definition then, the standard stuff is still there, and the salvager, be it ninja or MR, will receive more income in the form of scrap, which they can easily jettison if they want. So really, your idea does exactly Jack, with the exception of giving me more Trit to build with. I wonder how people in other careers will feel about the MR who already make a ton of money with pretty much no risk making even more money with pretty much no risk. As for sentence 2:
debbie harrio	Posted - 2009.09.03 22:44:00 - [440] As I said most ninjas have tiny cargo holds, you are an exception, you are looking for non-consensual pvp AND salvage ( stealing loot as well) so I believe in your case the salvage is secondary.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.09.03 22:50:00 - [441] Edited by: THE L0CK on 03/09/2009 22:50:26 No in my case the salvage and items are primary and the pvp is a bonus. I steal the items and melt them down. The minerals are used to make missiles and ammo. I salvage to get the wrecks to make rigs. I sell this all back to the very people I steal from. But again whats to stop a salvager from jettisoning scraps. I mean wow, he was just inconvenienced for all of 2 seconds. Not to mention you would need a lot of the stuff. I've occasionally have salvaged only and even on a big mission I take up all of 5.0 space of 150 in my frig. You could accomplish in making it worth it a little more then I guess.
debbie harrio	Posted - 2009.09.03 22:56:00 - [442] It takes 4 minutes+ for another jet can to be prepared, thus frustrating the ninja with a small cargo hold, it also frustrates the mission runner but evens the field a bit.
THE L0CK	Posted - 2009.09.03 22:59:00 - [443] Whats frustrating about it? you drop a can and continue salvaging. On the off chance that you do fill up again before you drop a can you simply fly back to the can you jettisoned IN YOUR LITTLE FAST SHIP. Any Ninja salvager who gets annoyed at that would have to be ADHD inflicted or just a douche in general. But again you would need to have a TON of scrap drop and MR's already make more than enough money and now you are offering to give them more?
debbie harrio	Posted - 2009.09.03 23:08:00 - [444] good plan but it is still inconvenience for the ninja, the mission runner in his marauder can tractor more wrecks to him and salvage them as he is popping more, the ninja is still ninjaring, I'm not trying to implement this at all just throwing a little fuel on the fire
debbie harrio	Posted - 2009.09.03 23:16:00 - [445] I am also of the opinion that until a MR is using a marauder and is able to tractor, salvage and kill at the same time, salvage and loot belongs to the quickest without flagging, that doesn't mean BTW that there should be flagging levels on loot and salvage just that it is free for the quickest but with upped scrap rates.
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.09.06 20:20:00 - [446] yeah, no, i agree with the other guy..bad idea.. fit a tractor and tug the can with you and its solved... and please, as a MR, i dont want more scrap, period! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world
Marguerite Antiki	Posted - 2009.09.06 22:11:00 - [447] Originally by: debbie harrio good plan but it is still inconvenience for the ninja, the mission runner in his marauder can tractor more wrecks to him and salvage them as he is popping more, the ninja is still ninjaring, I'm not trying to implement this at all just throwing a little fuel on the fire Buddy - your fuel is water and nothing flammable. Most Salvagers have expanded cargo holds or can shuffle around to make room in flight, whereas a MR has ammo and crap already in their cargo hold. Plus, increasing the scrap metal will make myself and other salvagers happier as we have no worries "draggin" a can around. Cause ya see, I do get stuck with scrap metal, heaps of it when I find a lvl 4 mission, so much that I need to jettison it, turn on my tractor beam, and drag the cargo container behind me. OMG, whatÆs that ? I now have more room than the mission runner due to me having a slot for a tractor beam and the MR probably having a full complement of guns? ? !! !?//one11ONE?. So the possible hypothetical outcome will be, Salvagers pack in Cargo expanders and keep going with what they have as scrap metal can be dragged and we only need one cargo container (not 50 jetted everywhere) OR, mission runners start to throw more stones as they may need to pack on a Salvager and a tractor beam so they can copy the salvagers just to try an keep up but at the expense of weapon loss. Your idea is a bit flawed - while it is an idea and you based it one aspect, Salvagers will already find a way around it, I know cause I have had the experience and already worked around it. M
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.09.07 17:24:00 - [448] Originally by: debbie harrio good plan but it is still inconvenience for the ninja, the mission runner in his marauder can tractor more wrecks to him and salvage them as he is popping more, the ninja is still ninjaring, I'm not trying to implement this at all just throwing a little fuel on the fire 1- a ninja can simply not scan for marauders 2- a ninja can fit a tractor and haul a can around no problem if (s)crap metal is part of that salvage.
HartzIV Kind	Posted - 2009.09.10 15:23:00 - [449] Edited by: HartzIV Kind on 10/09/2009 15:23:33 you can always say "FU" to the salvager by killing the wrecks right in front of him, i do that. its fun ;)
Salliene Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.09.10 16:28:00 - [450] Originally by: HartzIV Kind Edited by: HartzIV Kind on 10/09/2009 15:23:33 you can always say "FU" to the salvager by killing the wrecks right in front of him, i do that. its fun ;) You are so mean! How can you sleep at night??

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