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Vasta Magna Yarex Shipyards	Posted - 2009.12.26 17:53:00 - [301] Totally unshocked by this. Business plan was sketchy as hell.
ginlaan	Posted - 2009.12.26 18:17:00 - [302] Can i please have my isk back or some of of it at least? I know you did this not for tears or stuff like that but man this one hurt me. My thoughts on why i invested were not to make a killing since if it was i would of put more in, it was purely based on trying to help another person reach a goal they had wanted to do before they left game. You had seemed like the right person for that since i was familiar with your songs and your rep at the time. I choose wrong i understand that i understand the risk involved. If you choose not to of course that is fully your choice and i would need to live with it. I ask you to please Dont crush my belief in what people are and stand for and why i choose to help you.
Bret Caliaro Fortuna inc. Leather Rose Syndicate	Posted - 2009.12.26 18:18:00 - [303] I always wondered if MD had a near endless amount of isk to lose, so far it seems that way. _________________________________________________ I'm a so very lazy, so I play smart not hard.
Cista2 Jita Direct Sale	Posted - 2009.12.26 18:40:00 - [304] Why is everyone idolizing this scamming ********? I don't get it. ---------------------------------------- Buy / sell Jidsale shares here
RAW23	Posted - 2009.12.26 18:44:00 - [305] Originally by: Cista2 Why is everyone idolizing this scamming ********? I don't get it. Not sure. He's presenting it as taking advantage of people's greed and the CP folk seem to be buying that (although they tend to admire scams anyway). Its a shame he can't see, or doesn't want to see, that he took advantage of people's trust rather than their greed.
Cista2 Jita Direct Sale	Posted - 2009.12.26 18:54:00 - [306] Originally by: RAW23 the CP folk seem to be buying that (although they tend to admire scams anyway). I meant this thread actually. Any new player that tries to raise 1 bn gets ripped to pieces on MD, while this scammer gets a standing ovation ("well played", "well played indeed" etc) Go figure. ---------------------------------------- Buy / sell Jidsale shares here
flakeys T.H.U.G L.I.F.E The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.12.26 18:54:00 - [307] Originally by: RAW23 Originally by: Cista2 Why is everyone idolizing this scamming ******? I don't get it. Not sure. He's presenting it as taking advantage of people's greed and the CP folk seem to be buying that (although they tend to admire scams anyway). Its a shame he can't see, or doesn't want to see, that he took advantage of people's trust rather than their greed. Quite simple: As you can see allmost no one who has invested has posted as i stated earlier.This shows they mostly feel their epeen been crushed a bit , specially since a lot of them had comments on the yih and general newbold offer and are being shownwrong 10 times as hard now.Those that do post tend to behave like it's all in goody good. Also he was handing out isk so people not involved would see him as a good guy/robin hood/whatever.Shows me that he is needs to give people isk to be liked and remembered. His reasoning is just bull in my eyes btw , he is an attention* and nothing more.He did not set this up from the start wich he is letting people believe.He just allways had a big epeen probably , discovered how that tends to work like a charm and now wanted to leave his epeen mark on eve. This is offcourse speculation and he can/will claim i am wrong wich he offcourse is entitled to.I just won't believe a he says since he is nothing more then a scammer and i don't believe ** scammers say.
flakeys T.H.U.G L.I.F.E The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.12.26 19:08:00 - [308] Originally by: Cista2 Originally by: RAW23 the CP folk seem to be buying that (although they tend to admire scams anyway). I meant this thread actually. Any new player that tries to raise 1 bn gets ripped to pieces on MD, while this scammer gets a standing ovation ("well played", "well played indeed" etc) Go figure. How would you feel if you had laughed about the general newbold and yih investments wich where just peanuts and then stepped into one of the biggest scams so far? Most people feel their epeen's been hurt way too much to admit the stupidity.At least the guy above is honest allthough he is begging for his isk back. The rep-thing i have discussed in a ji sama thread while back.Most people still believe in rep despite Ricdic , Xabier and now this one.This will allways be the case and we can just wait for another big heist and in the meantime see the people who fall for it beat down the new players asking for some pocket change. I rather invest in new people like 15 bille in Raw23 as i have now , knowing the risk it gives , then hand out any dime to a big uncollateralised loan that is based on reputation alone.
Cista2 Jita Direct Sale	Posted - 2009.12.26 19:14:00 - [309] Originally by: flakeys How would you feel if you had laughed about the general newbold and yih investments wich where just peanuts and then stepped into one of the biggest scams so far? The investors would have my full sympathy if they were raging. The emotions displayed here are not natural. ---------------------------------------- Buy / sell Jidsale shares here
flakeys T.H.U.G L.I.F.E The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.12.26 19:22:00 - [310] Originally by: Cista2 Edited by: Cista2 on 26/12/2009 19:18:53 Originally by: flakeys How would you feel if you had laughed about the general newbold and yih investments wich where just peanuts and then stepped into one of the biggest scams so far? The investors would have my full sympathy if they were raging. I tip my hat to Ginlaan as well, he is honest. But to applaud the scammer is disgraceful. Have the same feeling over ginlaan and others as u state .. takes a lot more balls to ask back for isk and admit faillure then to pretend the OP is the coolest bloke around.

Galal Dax Dead poets society The Laughing Men	Posted - 2009.12.26 19:35:00 - [311] So I suppose all the rest of this was BS too then, "brother"? I found you full of BS from the first post when you came on here telling everyone how rich you were, etc., etc. You were back but were leaving - but not before you wasted everyone's time lying to them, setting up private meetings to scam and lie some more. Don't you have anything better to do? What a waste of oxygen, if you indeed breathe the stuff. Originally by: Curzon Dax Edited by: Curzon Dax on 20/12/2009 14:20:46 Yes, still leaving Eve. Yes, payout is still in order. I haven't been online lately because there's a bitter fight with CCP over billing issues; I haven't paid for Eve in a long time because of time cards, and Eve used to get paid for with an account that's not active anymore, and CCP auto-charged / renewed a defunct account without authorization, leading to overdraft charges on a bank account that was closed, and the charges can't be disputed because the account is closed (although it apparently wasn't at the time) and I never found out about it for ages because I stopped using that bank....no one called / e-mailed / nothing. Then I got a letter in the mail that I'd been sent to collectors for this ridiculous sum of over-drawn / drafted fees attached to an attempted $14.99 subscription charge, and CCP's responses are form letter "Sorry, not our fault can't do anything to help" Seriously getting irritated. Account is active right now, which is saying a lot, but this passed the point of ridiculous two weeks ago.
ginlaan	Posted - 2009.12.26 19:36:00 - [312] Edited by: ginlaan on 26/12/2009 19:39:12 Thanks for the kind words. I Feel more kicked in the stomach then anything. My amount was not much by any means only about 1.3billion.I did in fact believe in this guy and thought what a novel idea and i would like to see it fulfilled so i sent some isk. I applauded his approach and thinking and defended him to others in the thread about asking for refunds. They knew the terms such as i did and the risk such as i did. It still does not help that i was really hoping to help curzon fulfill his last wish in eve. It appears his last wish was not what it appeared to be :-( I Still will help people when asked and always be willing to take a chance on new people in MD when i can. I can not let this stop or impead me but like i stated this one sure hurt. Edit: Curzon knows i am not full of **** either since he may recall the eve mail i sent to him stating how i wished to emulate him on my exit from eve someday and i thought it was a great idea. Of course i was also sending him another 300million isk on top of that evemail since he had asked for more:-)lol sometimes hindsight is 20/20 they say?
Promethian child Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.12.26 19:55:00 - [313] Lost a chunk of cash in it so i admit being dazzled by the whole rep thing. Lesson learned keep your ISK in your pocket or own projects and never ever trust anyone on MD. The only thing that bothered me was that i convinced a corp mate to take part in this scam but i already settled things with him.
Kruntologist Red Eye .Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.26 20:02:00 - [314] Originally by: Promethian child Lost a chunk of cash in it so i admit being dazzled by the whole rep thing. Lesson learned keep your ISK in your pocket or own projects and never ever trust anyone on MD. The only thing that bothered me was that i convinced a corp mate to take part in this scam but i already settled things with him. Don't try blaming this on MD. I could easily change your sentence to read Quote: Lesson learned keep your ISK in your pocket or own projects and never ever trust anyone in EVE. Seriously, ANY TIME you take ISK out of your wallet and put it into someone else's there is a huge risk. In fact, the few times that I do I automatically write the ISK off as lost so if/when I do get it back it is a pleasant suprise.
Nouva MacGyver Caldari MacGyver Communications	Posted - 2009.12.26 20:06:00 - [315] This thread makes for an interesting study and reiteration of some points mentioned with regards to trust coupled with reputation. My hat goes out to the people who've managed to at least have the good sense to question how the OP's plan and updates as it went along doesn't add up or simply made less and less sense. If one were to detach their self emotionally and re-read this thread from the beginning with an open mind, they can start to discern which posts were the legitimate concerns and which ones were the emotionally charged defenses for the OP. It probably does nothing for those who are already astute enough to ask the right questions, but this thread is a perfect example of something that one should add to their "eve knowledge" and pick up lessons from so as to never take specific details (or lack of it) for granted again. It's a game after all, and due to the nature of Eve different rules need to apply for decision making in such "ventures"- ones which are different in real life where reputation in and of itself plays a wider reaching importance and has different implications and consequences. For those "serious" about "investing" in Eve (i.e. wants to take intelligent risks proportionately more than an emotional gamble) they should take a moment to step back and reconsider all the potential red flags, and cross examine them accordingly.
Cista2 Jita Direct Sale	Posted - 2009.12.26 20:09:00 - [316] Edited by: Cista2 on 26/12/2009 20:11:04 Originally by: Promethian child Lesson learned keep your ISK in your pocket or own projects and never ever trust anyone on MD. I feel for you, but it wouldn't be an MMO if there wasn't the aspect of putting trust in your fellow players. You should be able to trust someone, but whom you trust is up to you. Scamming is not the general outcome of investments, which is also why I took offense to the gist of page 10-11 of this thread. Scamming is not cool. Edit: damn, Nouva said it much better ---------------------------------------- Buy / sell Jidsale shares here
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2009.12.26 20:14:00 - [317] yawn How tedious. Ten years from now whatever-his-name-is will be wearing the same t-shirt and telling his scam story for the millionth time to bored mates. Ten minutes from now EVE will have forgotten his name. Next?
Kapila Parthalan	Posted - 2009.12.26 20:27:00 - [318] This thing did seem pretty sketchy. He could have sold off some of his items for the isk he needed, and his justification for not doing so ("selling rare and precious things sucks") was not completely satisfying. He refused an audit, which could have proved that he wasn't as rich as he said. Of course, there was the fact that he had left EVE already and was going to leave again. He accused pretty much anyone who said "scam" of trolling. Then there was Curzon's suspicious response to my discussion of collateral. With all of that, I decided not to invest, despite the huge promised returns. I did reduce my risk estimation when people started asking for refunds and getting them, although it didn't matter much since he refilled the investment quickly and I was a bit suspicious that they were alts or something. I noticed that Curzon was the only one keeping track of the amount invested, and would have checked myself if I had wanted to invest, but I was too lazy to do it since I had no intention of investing and since I figured a lot of people had invested in game. Originally by: Curzon Dax From here, I started approaching people individually; asking them to privately fund 20 billion ISK to cover the cost of a third Estamel's Modified Invulnerability Field in exchange for my Meta14-fitted Golem when I left Eve. I moved the date of payment up to Christmas (yesterday), to provide incentive and let greed do its work. I got 15-20 billion ISK each from a lot of people who thought that they were going to get a Meta14 fit Paladin, or Golem, or Vindicator for Christmas. Why did NONE of those people post here, either about the private funding or the new deadline? I'm always worried that the investee has more nonobvious unsecured isk that belongs to others, but before this, I expected that someone providing private funding would probably post publicly about it in relation to the public offering, unless they were a friend, corpmate, etc. who would probably not be scammed. Originally by: flakeys The rep-thing i have discussed in a ji sama thread while back.Most people still believe in rep despite Ricdic , Xabier and now this one.This will allways be the case and we can just wait for another big heist and in the meantime see the people who fall for it beat down the new players asking for some pocket change. I rather invest in new people like 15 bille in Raw23 as i have now , knowing the risk it gives , then hand out any dime to a big uncollateralised loan that is based on reputation alone. Indeed, even though I had limited firsthand knowledge of Curzon's rep, I assigned a fairly large value to his rep based on the statements of others. I definitely will be more careful about that in the future. However, I think rep is still fairly important. In the last few months, we've had at least 3 major scams from new people (General Newbold, glas mir, Z'Xera, and maybe Kouryusei), compared to this 1 big scam. My evaluation was that Curzon's rep only partially offset all the problems, so I didn't invest. Clearly, however, many people put too much trust in Curzon based on his rep and did not pay enough attention to the warning signs.
flakeys T.H.U.G L.I.F.E The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.12.26 20:33:00 - [319] Those 3 you call big scam got away with maximum half the isk the OP has run off with and they had to fight hard on the forums to get that isk.Their threads where kept active for a long time and i bet this one will go down to the next page a lot faster. The op just set up a chair , launched the thread and got the isk flowing in like water.I'm curious as to what his max wuld have been , wouldn't be surprised if he could have gotten 100 bille loan.
Kapila Parthalan	Posted - 2009.12.26 20:46:00 - [320] Originally by: flakeys Those 3 you call big scam got away with maximum half the isk the OP has run off with and they had to fight hard on the forums to get that isk.Their threads where kept active for a long time and i bet this one will go down to the next page a lot faster. I didn't say big, I said major. That means I excluded things like the Slave Ada one, which was only 50M. Those 3 investments were 16.1B + 15B + 8B = 39.1B. Z'Xera didn't actually get anything though, so the amount actually scammed was 24.1 B. There is possibly another 2.5B for the Bitter Sea Trading Company, whose status is now uncertain. So, pretty close to half of the 50B that Curzon got publicly. Anyways, my point is that you need to be careful about all your investments. A lot of people were not careful about this one because of his rep, which turned out to be partially fake. Originally by: flakeys The op just set up a chair , launched the thread and got the isk flowing in like water.I'm curious as to what his max wuld have been , wouldn't be surprised if he could have gotten 100 bille loan. Yeah, I think he could have gotten several hundred billion more if he had really wanted to. However, it is clear that he didn't do this for the isk, as he was randomly giving some of it away.

cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.12.26 20:55:00 - [321] I lost 500M to this. A bit ****ed really, because I used to play poker with Dax and had some other previous dealings. He had always dealt honestly with me. I was lucky I didn't invest more, as he convo'd me a few times about buying up other people's stakes (which didn't exist). Although I thought it an interesting rpoject I told him I didn't want much money tied up for long periods, so I was only lucky in that regard. I think 2009 is my worst year for being burned on investments: FIMD Yih Curzon Dax Luckily I had none in DBANK and only 1M ISK in EBANK.
Vasta Magna Yarex Shipyards	Posted - 2009.12.26 21:03:00 - [322] Add Nova Wayout to the above two lists. Don't remember how much that one was, but small. Wasn't there a thread about a possible bailout for FIMD investors at some point? Obviously it didn't materialize but I don't remember how it all ended.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.26 21:08:00 - [323] I actually gave away most of the ISK, not some of it. Not that it makes me Robin Hood - I still have about 250 billion ISK worth of Meta 14 modules. I didn't do it for fame or fortune...that's a misnomer for you who think so - I've already been famous. Eve Radio, Eve-TV, EON Magazine...I've had my fifteen minutes of fame more than once and enjoyed it. I did this because I hadn't done it before. In answer to the question why none of my individual investors posted, it was because I had an announced payout date of Sept. 2010. I told each individual investor that they were privvy to a secret; that I was planning on paying out my IPO on Christmas instead (IE, in a month or two from when we talked), and that I would avail them to helping my IPO in exchange for their promise not to tell anyone that I was paying out sooner, or that I was looking for additional cash. IE, social engineering. I can't speak for Yih, and haven't followed the forums for a long time so I don't know what he did - but the social engineering shirt/sticker is a trademark of jinx.com - you can buy all sorts of cool T-shirts and stuff there. I got it along with a "I am the Fed" T-shirt at Defcon 2005, where I was the keynote on...social engineering. :) The most memorable part of it was actually winning $6,000 at the Hard Rock casino Thurs-Saturday, and losing it all on Sunday. >< -------------------------------------------------- Eve-Online Parodies: Music To Laugh To
Kapila Parthalan	Posted - 2009.12.26 21:27:00 - [324] Originally by: Curzon Dax In answer to the question why none of my individual investors posted, it was because I had an announced payout date of Sept. 2010. I told each individual investor that they were privvy to a secret; that I was planning on paying out my IPO on Christmas instead (IE, in a month or two from when we talked), and that I would avail them to helping my IPO in exchange for their promise not to tell anyone that I was paying out sooner, or that I was looking for additional cash. IE, social engineering. Oh, I see. This is a problem; how can we avoid this in the future? I think there is no legitimate reason an investee would try to keep private investment secret. We should seek to have all private investment announced alongside the public investment. Maybe they would want to keep the names private, but the amount of private funding should be known, as it increases the risk of a scam and the amount of isk lost if it is a scam. A continuous audit of Curzon would also have revealed this, although that could be circumvented as well by having the private investors send isk to an unaudited alt with some additional social engineering.
Cista2 Jita Direct Sale	Posted - 2009.12.26 21:28:00 - [325] Originally by: Curzon Dax I didn't do it for fame Then try stop posting kbaithx. ---------------------------------------- Buy / sell Jidsale shares here
Kapila Parthalan	Posted - 2009.12.26 21:44:00 - [326] Edited by: Kapila Parthalan on 26/12/2009 21:44:39 Originally by: Curzon Dax I actually gave away most of the ISK, not some of it. Not that it makes me Robin Hood - I still have about 250 billion ISK worth of Meta 14 modules. If you still have about 250B in those modules alone, you hardly gave away most of the 374,405,000,000 isk you took. Edit: fixed typo
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.12.26 22:44:00 - [327] Originally by: Kapila Parthalan Originally by: Curzon Dax In answer to the question why none of my individual investors posted, it was because I had an announced payout date of Sept. 2010. I told each individual investor that they were privvy to a secret; that I was planning on paying out my IPO on Christmas instead (IE, in a month or two from when we talked), and that I would avail them to helping my IPO in exchange for their promise not to tell anyone that I was paying out sooner, or that I was looking for additional cash. IE, social engineering. Oh, I see. This is a problem; how can we avoid this in the future? I think there is no legitimate reason an investee would try to keep private investment secret. We should seek to have all private investment announced alongside the public investment. Maybe they would want to keep the names private, but the amount of private funding should be known, as it increases the risk of a scam and the amount of isk lost if it is a scam. A continuous audit of Curzon would also have revealed this, although that could be circumvented as well by having the private investors send isk to an unaudited alt with some additional social engineering. Classic scammer/con man trick. Chat in private to hide from the public. I've seen several "scams" like this in just the last couple months.
Kapila Parthalan	Posted - 2009.12.26 22:49:00 - [328] Originally by: Dretzle Omega Classic scammer/con man trick. Chat in private to hide from the public. I've seen several "scams" like this in just the last couple months. Really? Which scams were those? I know there are frequently loan requests where the investee asks potential investors to contact him in-game. However, I have not seen a case where the investor is asked to keep the investment secret.
Jessicat	Posted - 2009.12.26 23:38:00 - [329] Originally by: Curzon Dax I actually gave away most of the ISK, not some of it. Not that it makes me Robin Hood - I still have about 250 billion ISK worth of Meta 14 modules. I didn't do it for fame or fortune...that's a misnomer for you who think so - I've already been famous. Eve Radio, Eve-TV, EON Magazine...I've had my fifteen minutes of fame more than once and enjoyed it. I did this because I hadn't done it before. In answer to the question why none of my individual investors posted, it was because I had an announced payout date of Sept. 2010. I told each individual investor that they were privvy to a secret; that I was planning on paying out my IPO on Christmas instead (IE, in a month or two from when we talked), and that I would avail them to helping my IPO in exchange for their promise not to tell anyone that I was paying out sooner, or that I was looking for additional cash. IE, social engineering. I can't speak for Yih, and haven't followed the forums for a long time so I don't know what he did - but the social engineering shirt/sticker is a trademark of jinx.com - you can buy all sorts of cool T-shirts and stuff there. I got it along with a "I am the Fed" T-shirt at Defcon 2005, where I was the keynote on...social engineering. :) The most memorable part of it was actually winning $6,000 at the Hard Rock casino Thurs-Saturday, and losing it all on Sunday. >< I'm a pretty new around MD (since august maybe), I wanted to get into trading and all that, had a little bit of money saved. I read a lot about IPOs, bonds, shares, banks, fail-banks, etc. After reading Curzon's proposal I decided it was my time to invest, not a lot as most MD guys suggest (1 billion), what can I say Curzon seem reliable, even I had listened to some of his songs, so I ended up investing another 2b for a total of 3b, which is 50% of my total wealth assets included (mistake, I know, now). I feel really crushed about this whole thing, I know I'm the only one to blame since I decided to invest, I am also not ashamed to say that I send an eve-mail to Curzon begging for some of my money back, I'm sure I have not been the only one to do that, got no response. Now Curzon, since you did this because it was the only thing you had left to do in EVE, and you succeeded... couldn't you just give us the money back? First of all cause you are leaving anyway, second you already acomplished your goal, and third do you really want to leave EVE this way? and be remembered because af a scam? I hope not. Jessi
Bad Behavior	Posted - 2009.12.26 23:47:00 - [330] Originally by: Entity Posting to confirm Curzon and I had a little chitchat the other day and that I will be handling the payouts when he departs. On a side note, it looks like a good deal for everyone involved really :-) Posting for posterity.



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