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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Julian Lynq
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Posted - 2009.09.19 10:53:00 -
[1]
sais Tax-Rate 11% in the corporation info window on sisi. |
Count Helmchen
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Posted - 2009.09.19 12:02:00 -
[2]
sounds like ccp is going to f*** off those mission runner in npc corps
wohoooooo
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Julian Lynq
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Posted - 2009.09.19 12:07:00 -
[3]
**** them off ya
cant see how it would help anyone however.
people will just stay in npc corps and have 11% less income. i think its a bad change.
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Reiisha
Evolution IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.19 12:14:00 -
[4]
Maybe the extra isk sink is simply needed? And it still might drive people to make their own corps, or join established ones. |
Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.09.19 12:20:00 -
[5]
Hahahaha i said this was coming years ago. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Dedan Fusion
Gallente The Happy Spacemen Ascendancy United
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Posted - 2009.09.19 12:25:00 -
[6]
Hell, raise it to 50%!
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ArmyOfMe
The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.09.19 12:32:00 -
[7]
about freaking time if u ask me
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente War is Bliss
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Posted - 2009.09.19 12:33:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Blane Xero Hahahaha i said this was coming years ago.
This, and the post above me, best change of dominion, or best change of dominion?
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Julian Lynq
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Posted - 2009.09.19 12:39:00 -
[9]
yes sure best change... why not make wardecs free also ? so all of you super leet people can declare war on the new 1 man corps?and raise tax to 100%. also great of ccp not having the balls to put it in change notes-no wait make it 120% so people acutally loose money and make wardecs give the deccing corp 1b isk instead of costing money.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.09.19 12:44:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Julian Lynq yes sure best change... why not make wardecs free also ? so all of you super leet people can declare war on the new 1 man corps?and raise tax to 100%. also great of ccp not having the balls to put it in change notes-no wait make it 120% so people acutally loose money and make wardecs give the deccing corp 1b isk instead of costing money.
Welcome to the real world (Of eve), where you have to be smart and group together with intelligent players to survive.
I've ran my little 5 man + alt corp (Less if you count who is active) and we've never been "griefed" once, not in the whole 3 years it has been around. Stop making yourself a target. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Brad Therod
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Posted - 2009.09.19 12:45:00 -
[11]
Lol the tax would do ****e to anyone knowing anything about the game...
"High sec mission running corp with 5% tax looking for members, anyone is free to join"
Profit anyone?
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.19 12:47:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Julian Lynq yes sure best change... why not make wardecs free also ? so all of you super leet people can declare war on the new 1 man corps?and raise tax to 100%. also great of ccp not having the balls to put it in change notes-no wait make it 120% so people acutally loose money and make wardecs give the deccing corp 1b isk instead of costing money.
Craaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwling in my coooooooooooooorp this huuuull will not repppppppppp
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Julian Lynq
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Posted - 2009.09.19 12:47:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Julian Lynq yes sure best change... why not make wardecs free also ? so all of you super leet people can declare war on the new 1 man corps?and raise tax to 100%. also great of ccp not having the balls to put it in change notes-no wait make it 120% so people acutally loose money and make wardecs give the deccing corp 1b isk instead of costing money.
Welcome to the real world (Of eve), where you have to be smart and group together with intelligent players to survive.
I've ran my little 5 man + alt corp (Less if you count who is active) and we've never been "griefed" once, not in the whole 3 years it has been around. Stop making yourself a target.
ya fina. i am not you also there is no real world of eve. eve is a sandbox that means i can have choice. i not force you to play me game so i dont need play your game too. also yes very smart and intelligent play i forsee when 500 people corp wardec 2-3 people corp i guess they need very intelligent play for this.
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Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.09.19 12:50:00 -
[14]
I disagree with the concept of applying this from the outset.
However, TQ should watch a player's time in NPC corps, and when the cumulative time reaches 90 days, the corp tax should start to be applied at 50% tbh.
So for instance if a rookie creates a character in the Federal Navy Academy, he has 90 days to make his first ISK and look for a player corporation. After that he starts to get taxed by [FNA] at 50%.
If he then joins a player corp, their tax applies as set by the CEO. If he leaves, one of the following two situations occurs.
If his time in NPC corporations is <90 days, the clock keeps ticking, so if he initially spent 40 days in an NPC corp before being employed then he has 50 days before the NPC corporation he's placed in upon leaving (I believe FNA starter end up in The Scope) starts to tax him at the rate of 50%.
If his time in NPC corporations is >90 days, he begins to get taxed at 50% immediately on leaving the player corporation.
Would sort out the issue of people being "immune" in high sec by hiding in NPC corps.
\o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF 2008! \o/
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
ArmyOfMe
The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.09.19 12:50:00 -
[15]
Edited by: ArmyOfMe on 19/09/2009 12:51:19
Originally by: Julian Lynq yes sure best change... why not make wardecs free also ? so all of you super leet people can declare war on the new 1 man corps?and raise tax to 100%. also great of ccp not having the balls to put it in change notes-no wait make it 120% so people acutally loose money and make wardecs give the deccing corp 1b isk instead of costing money.
look at it this way, now your actually paying concord for being safe from war dec's not really unfair is it that your paying for protection if u ask me
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.09.19 12:53:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Julian Lynq 500 people corp wardec 2-3 people corp i guess they need very intelligent play for this.
GG exaggerating numbers. Also what makes my corp any different? We're 2-3 active carebears in Highsec. Never been bothered by Alliances or even corps looking for easy kills. And this is in a 3 year time span. This seems to fit the stereotype you are creating for the victim corps. Yet i aint no victim. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Julian Lynq
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Posted - 2009.09.19 12:53:00 -
[17]
why is this not in the preliminary patch notes ??*??? and not 1 word in dev blog too
ccp afraid of it ? need to put under the carpet ?
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.09.19 12:57:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Blane Xero on 19/09/2009 12:58:01
Originally by: Julian Lynq why is this not in the preliminary patch notes ??*??? and not 1 word in dev blog too
ccp afraid of it ? need to put under the carpet ?
Because compared to all the other things changing a NPC corp tax is extremely insignificant and is quite probably subject to wild changes?
Edit: Why are you not responding to my legitimate posts? Afraid of something? need to put it under the carpet? _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.09.19 12:58:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Brad Therod Lol the tax would do ****e to anyone knowing anything about the game...
"High sec mission running corp with 5% tax looking for members, anyone is free to join"
Profit anyone?
They CAN BE WARDECCED. Good change CCP.
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Julian Lynq
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Posted - 2009.09.19 13:01:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Blane Xero Edited by: Blane Xero on 19/09/2009 12:58:01
Originally by: Julian Lynq why is this not in the preliminary patch notes ??*??? and not 1 word in dev blog too
ccp afraid of it ? need to put under the carpet ?
Because compared to all the other things changing a NPC corp tax is extremely insignificant and is quite probably subject to wild changes?
Edit: Why are you not responding to my legitimate posts? Afraid of something? need to put it under the carpet?
insignificant ? only affecting largest part of the eve playerbase. yes that must be insignificant then. your posts are not interesting to me, thats why i dont respond to them.
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Adam Ridgway
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.19 13:03:00 -
[21]
Cry more Julian...
I would like a variation of Verone suggestion: - After 90 days players are automatclly moved to non-starter NPC corps that can be targets of opposing militia. - Taxes start at 0 in these corps but increase dynamically each week (until they reach 50%). - Time in player corps compute to reduce taxes back to 0 (so if you spend 2 months on a NPC corp you will need to spend 2 months in a player corp to reduce taxes back to 0). - Players in NPC corps can't use freighters, BS/BC (neither T2 cruisers or T3 hulls) or capitals.
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Xephys
Dark Twilight Solutions
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Posted - 2009.09.19 13:08:00 -
[22]
Haha, the amount of tears from Julian is astounding.
What is it carebears say everytime a big PvP change happens? Learn to adapt? Yeah, that's right.
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Julian Lynq
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Posted - 2009.09.19 13:13:00 -
[23]
i dont care what you pvp people think or say. i play the game long enough to be allowed a whine now too. all of you that say its a good change must be very bad in pvp too when u need to attack mission runner corps.
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RedSplat
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Posted - 2009.09.19 13:14:00 -
[24]
About ****ing time- you want 99% safe Highsec?
You pay for it.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
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Okonaa
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Posted - 2009.09.19 13:14:00 -
[25]
wow, not sure what i think about that change but i think its great.
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CCP Eris Discordia
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Posted - 2009.09.19 13:20:00 -
[26]
Edited by: CCP Eris Discordia on 19/09/2009 13:22:14 It's not in the sisi patch notes because I don't know how to edit them, I think I have to mail them to someone who has access to it and then it is edited in. This hsn't been properly set up yet but for the next sisi update I think there will be more and more accurate notes ( at least from me)
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis
Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.
Pink Dread has been hijacked
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Rexthor Hammerfists
Rage of Inferno Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.09.19 13:32:00 -
[27]
Its a great change and i love the fact that its 11%, hopefully itll be an eye opener to many - im also glad you have the balls to go through with this (no pun intended)
Keep it up ccp. -
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Eve Spair
Caldari Curaursi
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Posted - 2009.09.19 13:47:00 -
[28]
this is a great change. i always thought there should be some kind of penalty for being in an NPC corp and this does that quite nicely.
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LifeLines
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:05:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Julian Lynq yes sure best change... why not make wardecs free also ? so all of you super leet people can declare war on the new 1 man corps?and raise tax to 100%. also great of ccp not having the balls to put it in change notes-no wait make it 120% so people acutally loose money and make wardecs give the deccing corp 1b isk instead of costing money.
BAWWWWWWWWWWWWW NO MORE 100% RISKLESS MISSIONING
im mission runner but i love this change. plz increase tax to 33% or more and reduce war deccing costs by the same amount.
THANK YOU!
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:05:00 -
[30]
Needs to be MUCH MORE than 11%. More like 25-50%. Making it 'comparable' to most player corps isn't going to be a large enough stick to prod the carebears into player corps. -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:11:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Julian Lynq yes sure best change... why not make wardecs free also ? so all of you super leet people can declare war on the new 1 man corps?and raise tax to 100%. also great of ccp not having the balls to put it in change notes-no wait make it 120% so people acutally loose money and make wardecs give the deccing corp 1b isk instead of costing money.
Free wardecs? What a good idea!
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ArmyOfMe
The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:14:00 -
[32]
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis
♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ^^ just for you Eris
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Aargh
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:15:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Needs to be MUCH MORE than 11%. More like 25-50%. Making it 'comparable' to most player corps isn't going to be a large enough stick to prod the carebears into player corps.
20-25% would seem more realistic if you want people to give their money to greedy CEOs rather than the computer.
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Pater Peccavi
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:15:00 -
[34]
Hmm, does this apply to NPC militia corps? Sure, it's easy enough to get into a player corp, but the advantage of the NPC corp was that others couldn't wardec 1 corp and then cherry-pick targets in the militia fleet. I wish that would get dealt with. _________
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LifeLines
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:15:00 -
[35]
carebears are the cancer killing /eve/
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Caldor Mansi
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:16:00 -
[36]
What's the point?
People will just make 1 man corps...
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bruggie
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:17:00 -
[37]
If I need to pay for Concord i want subsecond response times everywhere in high sec...
Anyway, this will accomplish nothing, every mission runner will take the hit and stay in NPC corps. They dont want to be wardecced because that means no income because their expensive mission ship is then a target.
Just another ISK sink, nothing more.
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LifeLines
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:22:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Caldor Mansi What's the point?
People will just make 1 man corps...
atleast we can war dec them that way :S
and war dec costs should go down by A LOT
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Heroldyn
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:25:00 -
[39]
Originally by: LifeLines
Originally by: Caldor Mansi What's the point?
People will just make 1 man corps...
atleast we can war dec them that way :S
and war dec costs should go down by A LOT
What is the point in wardecc'ing a one man corp ?
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Roastedpot
Blutkinder
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:27:00 -
[40]
Blutkinder is now hireing experienced missioners! contact Mickey Simon :-D hehe
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:33:00 -
[41]
Originally by: bruggie If I need to pay for Concord i want subsecond response times everywhere in high sec...
Anyway, this will accomplish nothing, every mission runner will take the hit and stay in NPC corps. They dont want to be wardecced because that means no income because their expensive mission ship is then a target.
Just another ISK sink, nothing more.
Because staying in 1 man corp is so hard. If i moved to 1 man corp and grinded missions i doubt i would EVER be wardecced. And even if i was id just change corp :)
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syphurous
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:33:00 -
[42]
So now I will have to leave my NPC and join a player corp. Thats fine, I've mentored many players and have a number of corps that have asked for me to join them multiple times. With my skill sets I wont have a problem finding any one who wants me. From rock muncher, to mission grinder, to wing commander, I have a place. From carebear, corp ceo to everyone's favourite, the griefer, I've helped them all.
Have you forgotten the steep learning curve eve has ?
Who's going to mentor the new players in the NPC corps ? Who's going to give them their first taste of PvP. Explain the mechanics they face every day, and help them find their way ? Help them find a place for them in the greater scheme of things.
No corp in eve wants a 90 day old n00b who has mis-trained, has all the wrong skills for what it is they are after.
What you are going to end up with is more players getting frustrated that no one wants them and have no one to guide them. They will slowly over time earn less and less making it seem like a loosing battle. They simply wont continue to keep playing.
If you want to slow the growth of Eve down, do it. You may find it to be a straw that break the camels back.
Of course, some of you haven't realized that the 80,000 new 1 man corps are going to need to have an office, and this is only going to push up the rental cost you all currently pay for yours now. Most people will read this thinking it's part of my post, when its actually my sig :P
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LifeLines
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:35:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Heroldyn
Originally by: LifeLines
Originally by: Caldor Mansi What's the point?
People will just make 1 man corps...
atleast we can war dec them that way :S
and war dec costs should go down by A LOT
What is the point in wardecc'ing a one man corp ?
a hope to kill him.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:35:00 -
[44]
Originally by: syphurous So now I will have to leave my NPC and join a player corp. Thats fine, I've mentored many players and have a number of corps that have asked for me to join them multiple times. With my skill sets I wont have a problem finding any one who wants me. From rock muncher, to mission grinder, to wing commander, I have a place. From carebear, corp ceo to everyone's favourite, the griefer, I've helped them all.
Have you forgotten the steep learning curve eve has ?
Who's going to mentor the new players in the NPC corps ? Who's going to give them their first taste of PvP. Explain the mechanics they face every day, and help them find their way ? Help them find a place for them in the greater scheme of things.
No corp in eve wants a 90 day old n00b who has mis-trained, has all the wrong skills for what it is they are after.
What you are going to end up with is more players getting frustrated that no one wants them and have no one to guide them. They will slowly over time earn less and less making it seem like a loosing battle. They simply wont continue to keep playing.
If you want to slow the growth of Eve down, do it. You may find it to be a straw that break the camels back.
Of course, some of you haven't realized that the 80,000 new 1 man corps are going to need to have an office, and this is only going to push up the rental cost you all currently pay for yours now.
They need a HQ. Not an office. HQ's cost nothing and take no office slots last i checked. (Hence being able to create a corp in an office-less station) _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Heroldyn
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:45:00 -
[45]
Originally by: LifeLines
Originally by: Heroldyn
Originally by: LifeLines
Originally by: Caldor Mansi What's the point?
People will just make 1 man corps...
atleast we can war dec them that way :S
and war dec costs should go down by A LOT
What is the point in wardecc'ing a one man corp ?
a hope to kill him.
But is that a rational hope ?
If you were a one man 'corp' running missions all day and you'd then get a wardec, would you really wait in space in your shiny faction gear to be engaged on ?
I would not.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:45:00 -
[46]
Originally by: syphurous So now I will have to leave my NPC and join a player corp. Thats fine, I've mentored many players and have a number of corps that have asked for me to join them multiple times. With my skill sets I wont have a problem finding any one who wants me. From rock muncher, to mission grinder, to wing commander, I have a place. From carebear, corp ceo to everyone's favourite, the griefer, I've helped them all.
Have you forgotten the steep learning curve eve has ?
Who's going to mentor the new players in the NPC corps ? Who's going to give them their first taste of PvP. Explain the mechanics they face every day, and help them find their way ? Help them find a place for them in the greater scheme of things.
No corp in eve wants a 90 day old n00b who has mis-trained, has all the wrong skills for what it is they are after.
What you are going to end up with is more players getting frustrated that no one wants them and have no one to guide them. They will slowly over time earn less and less making it seem like a loosing battle. They simply wont continue to keep playing.
If you want to slow the growth of Eve down, do it. You may find it to be a straw that break the camels back.
Of course, some of you haven't realized that the 80,000 new 1 man corps are going to need to have an office, and this is only going to push up the rental cost you all currently pay for yours now.
Give me a break. Taxes only effect mission runners and ratters and 11% isn't going to force most missioners away nevermind all of them. People like me and many others have alts in NPC corps whose income isn't tied to missioning and we advice and will keep advicing new players.
Also lol, that you don't know how corps work. Maybe it is better, that you aren't there to spread bad info.
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Cheep Flux
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:50:00 -
[47]
So CCP are being directly hostile to me and my game? is this a sandbox or a drive through?
Im considering my place
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Don Pellegrino
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:52:00 -
[48]
Verone is absoltly right, the tax should be higher (about 30%) and start on the 90th day in *any* NPC corp.
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Mikayla Grey
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:52:00 -
[49]
About time this was changed.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.19 14:58:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Needs to be MUCH MORE than 11%. More like 25-50%. Making it 'comparable' to most player corps isn't going to be a large enough stick to prod the carebears into player corps.
Baby steps, mate, baby steps...
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:08:00 -
[51]
Originally by: LifeLines
Originally by: Heroldyn
Originally by: LifeLines
Originally by: Caldor Mansi What's the point?
People will just make 1 man corps...
atleast we can war dec them that way :S
and war dec costs should go down by A LOT
What is the point in wardecc'ing a one man corp ?
a hope to kill him.
A slim hope as he can just move on to a new corporation every time you war dec him. And no that is not and have never been an exploit, but I understand if it is the next thing you would like to have changed.
---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
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Casiella Truza
Back Alley Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:10:00 -
[52]
I could see 12-15%, but anything to encourage players to get out and see the real EVE works for me. Nice first step. -- EVE Blog EVE Twitter |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:10:00 -
[53]
At last. Also agree that new player shouldn't be affected by taxes, it should increase to its max value in few months.
Also i believe that cost of wardecs should be reconsidered - there'll be lots of corps with only one member (like mine, bleh), and it's pretty irrational that cost to wardec it is the same a cost to wardec RAT.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:11:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 15:12:38 This'll actually not matter all that much.....
According to my statistics, ISK income from missions is 31% of the total you can earn. The rest comes from LP, loot and salvage.
This means that for a mission runner, the 11% will actually be an effective tax of 3.41%. Not really that high a cost for wardec immunity.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kimi
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:14:00 -
[55]
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis
Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.
I am not so sure this will have the intended effect, at least not without other changes.
One of the main reasons that myself and many other players stay in NPC corps is that we simply get tired of being wardecced by high sec griefer/pirate wannabes. I suspect the main effect this will have is a shift away from missions to mining, not a shift in population to player corps.
Only time will tell what will really happen, but I am a great believer in the Law of Unintended Consequences. The Cariest of CareBears |
feminakitten
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:15:00 -
[56]
Edited by: feminakitten on 19/09/2009 15:15:55 Yep this will be good now all us miners and carebears can either pay up 11% or join corps that can be wardecced by very experienced pvp players, with equally highly skilled BS just so they can increase the kill on their **** waving kill boards, which by the way I read today EVE doesnt sanction.
I think in RL they call it cowardly bullying don't they. Flame on A*******s.
Oh and yes I joined a good group of people who had a young and growing corp and they were griefed constantly by a pirate mercenary corp until they folded. But then its pretty easy to kill a mining barge with Abbadons and the like, no wonder so many of you like this change.
Another player mentioned they liked to play their game not have bullies and cowards forcing them into PVP thats why they were in NPC corp.
No lets not lower war dec costs lets raise them to a Billion isk minimum so you need a real reason to war dec a corp and make it a mutual agreement else the wardec doesnt stand.
Go for it pfff.
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Zaknussem
Intrum Industria
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:18:00 -
[57]
Originally by: LifeLines
Originally by: Caldor Mansi What's the point?
People will just make 1 man corps...
atleast we can war dec them that way :S
and war dec costs should go down by A LOT
If anything, they should go up. The only real results CCP get from this "NPC Tax" (except maybe for some NPC corp veterans to quit the game) is to create another ISK sink, which can then be widened more by having Wardec costs go up.
This will also lead to office rent not only going up in price (yet another ISK sink), but may lead to a shortage of offices in hi-sec. Has CCP considered that angle? |
Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:21:00 -
[58]
Originally by: feminakitten Edited by: feminakitten on 19/09/2009 15:15:55 Yep this will be good now all us miners and carebears can either pay up 11% or join corps that can be wardecced by very experienced pvp players, with equally highly skilled BS just so they can increase the kill on their **** waving kill boards, which by the way I read today EVE doesnt sanction.
I think in RL they call it cowardly bullying don't they. Flame on A*******s.
Oh and yes I joined a good group of people who had a young and growing corp and they were griefed constantly by a pirate mercenary corp until they folded. But then its pretty easy to kill a mining barge with Abbadons and the like, no wonder so many of you like this change.
Another player mentioned they liked to play their game not have bullies and cowards forcing them into PVP thats why they were in NPC corp.
No lets not lower war dec costs lets raise them to a Billion isk minimum so you need a real reason to war dec a corp and make it a mutual agreement else the wardec doesnt stand.
Go for it pfff.
You just make you own one man corporation which not only provides you with no tax but also helps to distance you even further away from social interaction with your fellow players. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:29:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 15:29:59
Originally by: feminakitten Yep this will be good now all us miners and carebears can either pay up 11% or join corps that can be wardecced by very experienced pvp players....
You do know that miners will not pay a single ISK in tax? (apart from tax on bounties on the occasional rat you kill)
Tax is applied to mission rewards and bounties. Nothing else IMHO.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Mia Morningstar
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:34:00 -
[60]
This change is a joke.
The tax affects: Mission reward (less than 10% from total lvl4 mission income)
The tax doesn't affect: Time bonus reward, LPs, Belt rat bounty, mission rat bounty? (CBA to count), Amount of salvage/loot?
So the 11% tax from mission reward is very cheap cost in exchange for war immunity.
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Comodore John
Gallente Xennon Industria LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:35:00 -
[61]
Originally by: syphurous Of course, some of you haven't realized that the 80,000 new 1 man corps are going to need to have an office, and this is only going to push up the rental cost you all currently pay for yours now.
after dominion, we wont need offices, well be able to apply to any corp from any station
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Kimi
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:36:00 -
[62]
Originally by: LifeLines
Originally by: Caldor Mansi What's the point?
People will just make 1 man corps...
atleast we can war dec them that way :S
and war dec costs should go down by A LOT
No, wardec costs should go UP, a LOT.
Make wardec costs inverserly proportional to the member count of each corp. If a 500 member corp wardecs a 1 man corp, it costs them 500 million. If a 50 man corp wardecs another 50 man corp it costs them 50K.
That would also encourage those inflated member-count corps to finally purge all those members that have not logged on since July 2003. The Cariest of CareBears |
Kepakh
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:37:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Mia Morningstar This change is a joke.
The tax affects: Mission reward (less than 10% from total lvl4 mission income)
The tax doesn't affect: Time bonus reward, LPs, Belt rat bounty, mission rat bounty? (CBA to count), Amount of salvage/loot?
So the 11% tax from mission reward is very cheap cost in exchange for war immunity.
With current mechanics, corp tax affects: Bounties Mission rewards Mission time bonus rewards
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:37:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Mia Morningstar This change is a joke.
The tax affects: Mission reward (less than 10% from total lvl4 mission income)
The tax doesn't affect: Time bonus reward, LPs, Belt rat bounty, mission rat bounty? (CBA to count), Amount of salvage/loot?
So the 11% tax from mission reward is very cheap cost in exchange for war immunity.
Tax affects every monetary part of mission. So rat bounty too. And probably time bonus reward (not 100% sure on this one). Tax doesnt affect LPs, never did not even in player corps. Same for salvage etc.
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Zartanic
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:40:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Zartanic on 19/09/2009 15:44:59 Edited by: Zartanic on 19/09/2009 15:42:40 As a carebear who who thinks PVP is crucial to this game in all its aspects I can't see this change making the slightest bit of difference, it just balances out tax:
1. Mining corps...no difference, they stay in npc corp.
2. PVE mission corps - a bit but they would pay anyway in a player corp and the losses are much higher if war decced in ISK and time lost so 11% is peanuts, especially as its not on all mission income anyway.
3. Bots - so they lose a bit but not if mining.
They should do 50% or not bother. Or maybe have a daily tax on ISK balance with a lower cap. This change has nothing to do with PVP in my opinion. That won't stop some carebears crying though.
IF CCP want to encourage PVP they need to stop these negative type fixes, they never work and all they do is annoy players. Encouraging people to PVP is much smarter. Give them a reason to beyond the Euro think of tax tax tax.
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Mia Morningstar
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:42:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 15:29:59
Tax is applied to mission rewards and bounties. Nothing else IMHO.
On SISI, my BELT rat bounties (random lowsec belt not in mission) weren't taxed nor time bonus rewards (I was in npc corp)
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Tax affects every monetary part of mission. So rat bounty too. And probably time bonus reward (not 100% sure on this one). Tax doesnt affect LPs, never did not even in player corps. Same for salvage etc.
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Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:49:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Kerfira ISK income from missions is 31% of the total you can earn. The rest comes from LP, loot and salvage.
This means that for a mission runner, the 11% will actually be an effective tax of 3.41%.
Yup. Less shooting more looting and salvaging because that is where the the tiny fun in missioning is. Or getting to know the inner workings of corp hopping and wardeccing. All other carebearing outside missions still done in NPC corps. It sounded good - at first glance. At second glance it just makes EvE more bothersome if you stay or not.
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Urgg Boolean
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:50:00 -
[68]
Taxes suck azz. Why should we be encouraged to join a player corp? I find many corps are filled with objectionable politics and sociopathic nerds that I do not want to know or interact with. One man corp is not an answer either due to Wardecs.
For those of you who say "players must pay for a "safe" hi sec experience". I say, we already do : $15/month sub fee.
My experiences in 0.0 have introduced me to players who are not only sociopathic, but psychopaths who spew the sickest form of dialog that I have only seen matched by my most violent patients (I am a psych nurse IRL). Some in 0.0 are fun folks and you can PvP, get ganked, pwned, or whatever, and have some laughs. But many are sick individuals whom I don't want to know, or more precisely, are people who exhibit behavior and language very similar to those I get paid to provide care for. I could write a Master's thesis on how in-game sociopathic/psychopathic behavior translates to real life dysfunction, but that is enough said for the current topic.
The kicker for me is that the specified direction for Dominion is to "encourage" us to have more interaction with player corps and to inhabit 0.0.
Well, I have a very pragmatic attitude about it all. There are a couple of space based games with release dates as yet unspecified. There are many existing factors that are in the negative column for EVE, including a horrible interface, buggy/flaky code in general, years to build skills - the list is huge actually). But I like the spaceships and the pewpew, and have substantial time invested, have made good friends (plus column). When the list of negatives is big enough, and a viable alternative is available, I'll check it out seriously to see if said alternative(s) better match my play style. Or on a slightly different view, I'll seek alternatives that allow me to play the way I want, rather than being "encouraged" in directions that I have no interest in.
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Gavin DeVries
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:51:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 15:29:59
Originally by: feminakitten Yep this will be good now all us miners and carebears can either pay up 11% or join corps that can be wardecced by very experienced pvp players....
You do know that miners will not pay a single ISK in tax? (apart from tax on bounties on the occasional rat you kill)
Tax is applied to mission rewards and bounties. Nothing else IMHO.
Miners already pay a 5% tax (of the minerals) on refining, reduced if they have standing the corporation owning the station. How does one get standing with the corporation? Running missions, which will be taxed at 11% for the duration of the standing grind. Besides, mining is lower income than missioning, at least with the level 3-4 missions.
Personally, I'm in favor of it. I understand the reasons people might want to stay in NPC corps, and I don't really think this should apply to new characters or to faction militia corps (they can already be freely engaged by players in opposing militias, so they're permanently at war). I think 20% is more appropriate. Perhaps with "licensing fees" for large ships, like battleships or freighters, as wel. ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.19 15:59:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Mia Morningstar On SISI, my BELT rat bounties (random lowsec belt not in mission) weren't taxed nor time bonus rewards (I was in npc corp)
If this is the case also for mission rats, then this change will matter as much as a fart in a Texas tornado....
Originally by: Urgg Boolean There are a couple of space based games with release dates as yet unspecified. There are many existing factors that are in the negative column for EVE, including a horrible interface, buggy/flaky code in general, years to build skills - the list is huge actually).
You really think any of them will not have the same issues??? Not to mention that they'll be horribly much 'smaller' than EVE....
Originally by: Gavin DeVries Miners already pay a 5% tax (of the minerals) on refining, reduced if they have standing the corporation owning the station. How does one get standing with the corporation? Running missions, which will be taxed at 11% for the duration of the standing grind.
I should have said 'extra tax'.... In any case, it'll not be something that'll matter...
Originally by: Gavin DeVries Besides, mining is lower income than missioning, at least with the level 3-4 missions.
Actually missioning can earn you 3-4x more (for L4 missions) than mining (when both done in high-sec).
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Gavin DeVries
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Posted - 2009.09.19 16:02:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Urgg Boolean For those of you who say "players must pay for a "safe" hi sec experience". I say, we already do : $15/month sub fee.
This reply should easily take up a big chunk of my 5 minute timer from the previous post.
I have to disagree with you here. Your $15 per month subscription fee does not pay for a safe hi sec experience; it pays for the EVE experience. Someone once said what I feel is the design philosphy of EVE: "If you're not willing to fight for what you have, you don't deserve to have it, and you WILL lose it". That seems to be the driving force behind all the developer decisions in making this game. Hi-sec is not safe. It is not intended to be safe. It is intended to be safer than low-sec or null-sec.
Right now, there are many players who stay in the starter corporations. The only things these players cannot do are the things that require multiple people. The developers have always tried to set things up where risk and interaction bring higher rewards than those with low/no risk and interaction. So, if you stay in an NPC corp where nobody can declare war on you, and your only threat is being suicide ganked, you should make less money than someone doing the same activities in a player corporation. ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? |
Some Advisor
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Posted - 2009.09.19 16:06:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Julian Lynq yes sure best change... why not make wardecs free also ? so all of you super leet people can declare war on the new 1 man corps?and raise tax to 100%. also great of ccp not having the balls to put it in change notes-no wait make it 120% so people acutally loose money and make wardecs give the deccing corp 1b isk instead of costing money.
to early for tears, but nice preview ^^
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2009.09.19 16:08:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Mia Morningstar
On SISI, my BELT rat bounties (random lowsec belt not in mission) weren't taxed nor time bonus rewards (I was in npc corp)
The changes are not final.
Also, did you wait 15-20 minutes....?
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RedSplat
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Posted - 2009.09.19 16:11:00 -
[74]
Stay the course CCP and ignore the carebear whining.
This change is LONG overdue and needed to balance highsec.
Although you should really think about bumping it to 20% as 11% knocked off of level 4 income is peanuts.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
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voogru
Gallente Massive Damage United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2009.09.19 16:14:00 -
[75]
I think it needs to be higher.
20 - 25%.
It also should apply to market transactions, LP, etc.
Hate Farmers? Click Here |
Adam Ridgway
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.19 16:17:00 -
[76]
The whiners in this thread are pathetic and just show how they should be taxed much more and probably nerfed in many ways (mostlly skill caps for every part of the game).
They have no idea how much INMUNITY does affect this game, they think it's all about them and their 'solo playing'. NO ONE gives a **** about your solo playing, but logistic alts (I refeer to combat logistics, but also to freighters i.e.) or risk free money making alts (mission runners, miners, even industrials though industrials usually are in player corps because they need for various activities) DO affect people playing the real EVE, not EVE Lite: NPC Corps (aka WoW in space) and do it seriouslly.
So get over it and be glad the change is so minor (yet, I hope, even if we have to wait 2 years for more nerfing of npc corps).
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Ariane VoxDei
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Posted - 2009.09.19 16:20:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Ariane VoxDei on 19/09/2009 16:20:49
Originally by: bruggie If I need to pay for Concord i want subsecond response times everywhere in high sec...
LOL. THIS! And we want concord to pop anyone even looking at our mission wrecks in a funny way. Oh and we want npc's to do our looting and salvaging for us - without further fees, what do you think a ridiculous tax percentage like that is for. Concord would be able to buy all the 4 empires very soon. And then expand into low and null, soon forcing every alliance to be peons under the new Pax Concordia (aka eve: kittens online), with everyone being nice and getting along and doing nothing but mining and producing for their new masters unless they want to be have their clones removed and being concordokkened.
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Mia Morningstar
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Posted - 2009.09.19 16:21:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Mia Morningstar
On SISI, my BELT rat bounties (random lowsec belt not in mission) weren't taxed nor time bonus rewards (I was in npc corp)
The changes are not final.
Also, did you wait 15-20 minutes....?
I didn't get taxed for killing 15k frigate nor 65k cruiser but I got taxed for killing a 160k BC... in BELT
also
I didn't get taxed 88k isk time bonus reward but got taxed 712k isk time bonus reward
All of this was in losec
bleh, now I'm not sure
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Ariane VoxDei
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Posted - 2009.09.19 16:26:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Adam Ridgway The whiners in this thread are pathetic ... They have no idea how much INMUNITY does affect this game, they think it's all about them and their 'solo playing'. NO ONE gives a **** about your solo playing, but logistic alts (I refeer to combat logistics, but also to freighters i.e.)
This tax will do NOTHING what so ever to logistics alts. It will only put some pressure on mission runners, not anyone else. Pathetic? Your line of reasoning comes to mind.
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master chiefy
Caldari Trojan Trolls Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.19 16:28:00 -
[80]
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Edited by: CCP Eris Discordia on 19/09/2009 13:22:14 It's not in the sisi patch notes because I don't know how to edit them, I think I have to mail them to someone who has access to it and then it is edited in. This hsn't been properly set up yet but for the next sisi update I think there will be more and more accurate notes ( at least from me)
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis
Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.
lol surely all devs should have access to things like patch notes...what a joke that is. No wonder things get put in without our knowledge.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.19 16:34:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 16:34:44 To put the discussion on what gets taxed to bed (for missions).
I just did an L4 mission on sisi. Both types of rewards, plus rat bounties were taxed.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Ariane VoxDei
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Posted - 2009.09.19 16:38:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Ariane VoxDei on 19/09/2009 16:40:22 Guys you need to STFU, all of you.
The only real way to 'hurt' the use of npc corps is putting some seriously sick draconian limits on what ships you may use (make active/get onboard) while in a npc corp.
No T2 or T3 what so ever. Neither shipwise or modules. No battleships. No freighters/JF/orca/rorq. No barges/exhumers above retriever. No faction ships. No battlecruisers. No capitals.
Further, if you account is more than 60 days old: No cruisers. No dessies. No frigates. No industrial. Shuttles and noobships only.
This, and only this is what is going to work and is going to be needed to satisfy the satanic hate there is out there against hi-sec residents being in NPC corps.
edit: forgot industials and dessies.
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Doomed Predator
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2009.09.19 16:42:00 -
[83]
Needs to be 25%, since 25 is such a nice number. Carebears need to grow a pair or ragequit and give me their stuff. The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again |
Lord Delacroix
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Posted - 2009.09.19 16:46:00 -
[84]
wat
mission runners are the people who create new ISK in the game what will happen is that prices will deflate by around 11% to match the reduced money supply
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Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.19 16:51:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Nyota Sol on 19/09/2009 16:53:39 bash empire players and mission runners all you want, but some of us PAYING CUSTOMERS actually like our noob corp and would quit with a silly new mechanic like this.
the gameplay would gain absolutely nothing and you'd lose subscriptions in the name of some silly ideological push towards 0.0 corps.
flame away...
if this were to go live you'd lose ALL my accounts. that's not a threat.
CAS 101 Eve Musings |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.19 16:52:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 16:54:19
Originally by: Lord Delacroix mission runners are the people who create new ISK in the game what will happen is that prices will deflate by around 11% to match the reduced money supply
Not entirely true....
Ratters create ISK bounties, 'plex runners create ISK from Overseer's stuff, WH space inhabitants create ISK from tags, some limited ISK is created from NPC trading.
Plus of.c. one of the largest ones, Insurance!
Prices of T1 goods CAN'T fall any further (unless insurance is lessened/removed)! Mineral prices are currently at the 'floor', and can't drop any further since it'll then become profitable to insure and suicide ships (thus creating ISK and raising mineral prices).
However, since mineral prices ARE at the floor, this indicates that there is too many minerals in the game for too little ISK. Possibly new ISK isn't the resource inflow that needs to get throttled back....
Originally by: Nyota Sol ....but if this were to go live you'd lose ALL my accounts.
Do you know how many times this argument has been made when CCP propose changes? Probably every single time!
Do you know how many times it has resulted in any noticeable decrease in players? ZERO!
Throwing that old, outworn threat around just makes you look utterly silly!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.09.19 16:59:00 -
[87]
Nice idea but - All pointless anyway
1) 3% of my mission running income for immunity to wardecs.. yes please :)
2)So you force the NPC corp coward into a one man player corp (0% tax) You then wardec this corp. He then jumps through a selection of other one man player corps (0% tax)
You waste a fortune on wardecs and watch him keep his immunity.
(non) Exploit Online
SKUNK (o)
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Nai Ling
Amarr Middle Finger Technology
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Posted - 2009.09.19 17:07:00 -
[88]
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Edited by: CCP Eris Discordia on 19/09/2009 13:22:14 It's not in the sisi patch notes because I don't know how to edit them, I think I have to mail them to someone who has access to it and then it is edited in. This hsn't been properly set up yet but for the next sisi update I think there will be more and more accurate notes ( at least from me)
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis
Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.
Tell the truth, Eris. It was costing too much to paint all your ships pink, and CONCORD started a wage strike... this tax was an appeasement.
I knew it...
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LifeLines
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.09.19 17:08:00 -
[89]
imagine most mission runners having employment histories longer than Hardin's...
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Chip Flux
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.19 17:18:00 -
[90]
the reason this is serious to me has absolutely nothing to do with isk. the point in all this is that CCP has yet again spoken of my game with derision' CAS is my corp, it is why I have played eve for so long I do not want to leave, I am not going to leave. I have impeccable stats all round, got through hard gameplay supported by a corperation of good friends sprinkled by a constant stream of a random sample of the worlds population. I have a game i play and enjoy I will not be told it is lame, I expect it of players
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Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.09.19 17:24:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 19/09/2009 17:23:54
Originally by: feminakitten
Oh and yes I joined a good group of people who had a young and growing corp and they were griefed constantly by a pirate mercenary corp until they folded.
Solutions: (a) Pay NPC tax. OR (b) Join a corp which is not fail!
Seriously, with all the claims that "omg, ebil wardeccers"... well, how about *tada* joining a high-sec corp which is able to protect its assets? It took me only a month or two to find (actually, they found me) a corp which actually did fight back in wars, even if most of us weren't very pro (we did have some skilled members / FCs though), and that was actually, you know, fun. Even as a nub with laughable skills.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.09.19 17:39:00 -
[92]
Originally by: LifeLines
Originally by: Caldor Mansi What's the point?
People will just make 1 man corps...
atleast we can war dec them that way :S
and war dec costs should go down by A LOT
Meh, I will setup 100 corps with a 1% tax rate, they can just jump from one corp to the other. Knock yourself out with the wardecs. ;)
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Chris Reiter
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Posted - 2009.09.19 17:39:00 -
[93]
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Edited by: CCP Eris Discordia on 19/09/2009 13:22:14 It's not in the sisi patch notes because I don't know how to edit them, I think I have to mail them to someone who has access to it and then it is edited in. This hsn't been properly set up yet but for the next sisi update I think there will be more and more accurate notes ( at least from me)
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis
Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.
Fine, tax newb corps. In the same regards, nerf "unsanctioned" gank attacks by removing insurance payout, it was talked about but never implemented. If I am paying for protection to CONCORD, I sure as hell better see pirates take it in the ass of their wallet if I am taking it as well. If my missioning is taxed to hurt my income, then high sec antics better start hurting griefers/pirates as well.
I dislike 99.9% of the playerbase of EVE with their smack talking, **** waving, and leg humping to get a usless kill mail. I am not interested in politics or listening to people give me orders. My monthly subscription is not worth extended training with no implants or a 2 million isk wardec, I would sooner quit and player windows solitare then worry about someone who can't stand against a null sec alliance but comes into highsec to take out carebears so they can feel good while stroking their e-peen.
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Dungheap
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.09.19 17:39:00 -
[94]
i have seen posters imply the tax is only on mission income. corp tax is on all income, except contracts.
again, ccp forget the carrot and stick thwory. this will be as successful as their plans to populate lo-sec.
and laughs at the pvp groupies who think they're cracking open a golden egg. you should drop an alt into caldari-provisions chat. there's some sick people in here, i'm telling you, you don't know what you're getting into.
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Laruant Wiggins
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.19 17:43:00 -
[95]
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Edited by: CCP Eris Discordia on 19/09/2009 13:22:14 It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation
What happened to the sandbox? An isk sink is fine, to encorage a certain outcome is what I have a problem with.
(I don't really care, already in a player corp with 0% tax)
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Rick Skynight
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Posted - 2009.09.19 17:44:00 -
[96]
Personally for me its just a matter of principle. Its not like CCP is nerfing my torpedos or how fast my hurricane flies anymore. They are now actually nerfing where people live in the game. <-- That is a big deal.
There is another game that tried this very same idea of telling people how to start playing their game and managing their character. I wont give the name since I've noticed in the past CCP doesnt appreciate other mmos being mentioned, but the initials are SWG. They pushed and pushed to mold players the way they want to the breaking point. They went from being in the top 90% of mmos to the mid 70% range now in popularity. People don't pay subscriptions for games they stop playing.
Im not saying this tax increase will make people quit, but its little things like this that add up over time that make people stop and say "Why am I paying you again? I thought I had freedom to do whatever I wanted."
Like with other things ccp has tried in the past, this tax increase wont get their desired affect. They say its encouragement, some of us say its punishment. Either way the isk isnt a big deal, its still about the principle.
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Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.19 17:45:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Lord Delacroix Edited by: Lord Delacroix on 19/09/2009 16:50:17 wat
mission runners are the people who create new ISK in the game what will happen is just that prices will deflate by around 11% to match the reduced money supply, no real harm for anyone but people who currently hold a lot of illiquid assets.
it would deflate by a lot more than that.
consider all the deactivated accounts, too... (and im not talking just spacedork rage quitting)
the secondary and unanticipated changes should make CCP think very seriously about implementing such a petty ideological game design change. i see nothing good actually obtained by such a tax (beyond the "lawl screw you mission runners" types of arguments). whereas there is a lot to be lost including actual players and economic activity.
CAS 101 Eve Musings |
Gottii
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.19 17:46:00 -
[98]
Im humbly submit that this should be known as the "Death (in game) or Taxes" nerf...
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.09.19 17:51:00 -
[99]
11% is NOT ENOUGH
If the average corp has 8% or so, then 3% for perfect protection from wars is really nothing. Such a protection should cost more.
I suggest AT LEAST 15% npc tax.
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Kathryn Dougans
Amarr Imperial Crusade Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.09.19 17:52:00 -
[100]
Militia corps don't have tax. This is good, since although they can't be wardecced, they can be engaged by the opposition.
Being a single mother is quite hard. |
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.19 17:53:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 17:55:00 It's funny to see people trying to make mountains out of molehills
This change will have next to no effect....
For people in NPC corp: Miners will feel next to no change. Explores might get a slight decrease in income. Traders will see no change. Builders will see no change. Inventors will see no change. Mission runners will have a marginal (<5% probably) drop in income.
....Mission runners already earn 3-4x as much as miners.....
So the only ones affected are mission runners, who make 1/2-2/3 of their income off NON-TAXABLE stuff anyway (LP, loot, salvage).
Seriously, the sky is NOT falling! Stop panicking (though it is funny to watch)...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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PostWithYourAlt
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Posted - 2009.09.19 17:57:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Laruant Wiggins
What happened to the sandbox?
The Sandbox Is a Lie.
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Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.19 17:57:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Nyota Sol on 19/09/2009 17:58:51
Originally by: Kerfira It's funny to see people trying to make mountains out of molehills
This change will have next to no effect....
For people in NPC corp: Miners will feel next to no change. Explores might get a slight decrease in income. Traders will see no change. Builders will see no change. Inventors will see no change. Mission runners will have a marginal (<5% probably) drop in income.
....Mission runners already earn 3-4x as much as miners.....
Seriously, the sky is NOT falling! Stop panicking (though it is funny to watch)...
No change my butt.
Instead of taking an ideological position and then only seeing what you want to see, consider all the significant possible impact and ripple effects.
CCP wants more people to join player corps. GREAT. Their fantasy solution is absolutely horrible. It's a classic example of twisted social engineering by design.
It will NOT accomplish their intended goal. People stay in npc corps for very good reasons. And some of those reasons are defensible. This is supposed to be a "sandbox" game, but CCP is showing that this is more of a marketing slogan than a real development principle.
Obviously eve would survive, but it WOULD have less subscribers... and arguing about 11% vs 15% vs 20% would be to miss the point. MMO developers should NEVER make changes of this MAGNITUDE unless it's very important... and yes, cutting income by 11% or more is very large for empire players.
CAS 101 Eve Musings |
Kerfira
|
Posted - 2009.09.19 18:00:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 18:00:21
Originally by: Nyota Sol Obviously eve would survive, but it WOULD have less subscribers...
To repeat!
Do you know how many times this argument has been made when CCP propose changes? Probably EVERY single time!
Do you know how many times it has resulted in any noticeable decrease in players? ZERO! ZILCH! NADA! NONE!
Throwing that old, outworn threat around just makes you look utterly silly!
You really should make making mountains out of molehills into your real-life occupation. You have a definite flair for it
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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ElanMorin6
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.19 18:03:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Laruant Wiggins
What happened to the sandbox?
Neighboorhood cats had been using it as a litterbox, so your sand is being replaced and several minor structural problems in the box are being repaired while it's empty.
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.09.19 18:09:00 -
[106]
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis
Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.
I can understand the desire to make it more attractive to get people to prefer player corps, but that should be because player corps provide great benefits rather than just penalize the **** out of noobcorps. If there was something interesting to do in Empire that required more than one person then a player corp would be a huge attraction, but there is zero content of that kind in empire.
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Rick Skynight
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Posted - 2009.09.19 18:10:00 -
[107]
CCP here is a better idea to the tax one your brainstorm team thought of.
Let the NPC corps wardec each other. That way they are playing with and doing combat with people around their own skill level. This would be a more effective way to encourage people to join a player corp.
As for people of my age in the npc corp, it will give us a chance to legally wipe out isk-farming / isk-selling hulks.
There, two birds killed with one antimatter charge.
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Quinn Foute
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Posted - 2009.09.19 18:10:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Veldya
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis
Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.
I can understand the desire to make it more attractive to get people to prefer player corps, but that should be because player corps provide great benefits rather than just penalize the **** out of noobcorps. If there was something interesting to do in Empire that required more than one person then a player corp would be a huge attraction, but there is zero content of that kind in empire.
Yes there is:Wormholes
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.09.19 18:25:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 19/09/2009 17:23:54
Originally by: feminakitten
Oh and yes I joined a good group of people who had a young and growing corp and they were griefed constantly by a pirate mercenary corp until they folded.
Solutions: (a) Pay NPC tax. OR (b) Join a corp which is not fail!
Seriously, with all the claims that "omg, ebil wardeccers"... well, how about *tada* joining a high-sec corp which is able to protect its assets? It took me only a month or two to find (actually, they found me) a corp which actually did fight back in wars, even if most of us weren't very pro (we did have some skilled members / FCs though), and that was actually, you know, fun. Even as a nub with laughable skills.
Wardeccers are not the problem, in my experience most are cowards that only prey on the weak. Get 30-40 people in PvP fits and they are the ones hiding in stations.
The problem is the element of trust required when you get to player corps. Most of the more serious loss, especially to newer players, come from betrayal from within a player corp because it is no-risk to shoot at your own corpmate.
It is one thing to fly around in your 30m PvP ship, some mission runners are flying in 10b ships, I'd pop my own corp mate for a slice of that.
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War Banzai Boyz
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Posted - 2009.09.19 18:30:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 19/09/2009 18:32:44
Looking forward to see more changes in this evidently right direction.
11% is merely a first step.
You'd need to:
- implement a higher progressive tax covering those who have been playing few years while still hanging in the newbie-dungeons NPC corps. So it's 11% right from the start and up to 90% if you're 2 years old vet.
- prohibit lvl 4/5 missions for those in NPC corps.
- prohibit the use of certain ship types for said people. Like Hulks, Navy battleships, Marauders, etc.
- make at least 14 days timer for corp swapping. No need to say this is to prevent farmers from abusing current wardec mechanics. ---[center] Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.09.19 18:31:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Quinn Foute
Yes there is:Wormholes
That isn'e Empire, Dufus. You see Concord flying around in wormholes?
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PostWithYourAlt
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Posted - 2009.09.19 18:37:00 -
[112]
You can not force peopl into socially interacting with each other if they dont wan¦t to. Regardless of how much you nerf something or buff something else.
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.09.19 18:38:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Fon Revedhort Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 19/09/2009 18:32:44
Looking forward to see more changes in this evidently right direction.
11% is merely a first step.
You'd need to:
- implement a higher progressive tax covering those who have been playing few years while still hanging in the newbie-dungeons NPC corps. So it's 11% right from the start and up to 90% if you're 2 years old vet.
- prohibit lvl 4/5 missions for those in NPC corps.
- prohibit the use of certain ship types for said people. Like Hulks, Navy battleships, Marauders, etc.
- make at least 14 days timer for corp swapping. No need to say this is to prevent farmers from abusing current wardec mechanics.
lol you don't need to bother with all that garbage, 10% tax will be enough to turn the npc corps into ghost corps with just the aimless noobs left in them.
It wont change anything though, other than people setting up more useless disposable 0% tax corps.
If people can't play the game the way they want to play it then they will stop playing, they wont play it the way you want them to play it, all it will achieve is a loss of subscribers for CCP.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.19 18:40:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Fon Revedhort Looking forward to see more changes in this evidently right direction.
11% is merely a first step.
You'd need to:
- implement a higher progressive tax covering those who have been playing few years while still hanging in the newbie-dungeons NPC corps. So it's 11% right from the start and up to 90% if you're 2 years old vet.
- prohibit lvl 4/5 missions for those in NPC corps.
- prohibit the use of certain ship types for said people. Like Hulks, Navy battleships, Marauders, etc.
- make at least 14 days timer for corp swapping. No need to say this is to prevent farmers from abusing current wardec mechanics.
It'll never happen!
For better or worse, the largest part of players are in noob corp!
That means that the largest part of CCP's income come from players in noob corp..... With me so far? That also means that income come from people who for one reason or another LIKE to be in noob corp.... Still with me?
So, CCP can put a few restrictions, but not the extreme you suggest because then they might lose a major chunk of their income.
With todays EVE playerbase, there HAS to be content which is relatively similar to todays for players who don't like to participate in the PvP game that is also EVE.
Since they bring income to the game too, they can't just be ignored. That is why your suggestion is as unrealistic as moving L4's to low-sec. Neither will ever happen (at least not without providing something similarly juicy to that majority of players).
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kepakh
|
Posted - 2009.09.19 19:09:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Mia Morningstar
I didn't get taxed for killing 15k frigate nor 65k cruiser but I got taxed for killing a 160k BC... in BELT
also
I didn't get taxed 88k isk time bonus reward but got taxed 712k isk time bonus reward
All of this was in losec
bleh, now I'm not sure
I believe there is a limit on minimal tax fee.
Also the taxes will be deduced as cummulative payment similar to bounties.
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Mikayla Grey
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.19 19:16:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Fon Revedhort Looking forward to see more changes in this evidently right direction.
11% is merely a first step.
You'd need to:
- implement a higher progressive tax covering those who have been playing few years while still hanging in the newbie-dungeons NPC corps. So it's 11% right from the start and up to 90% if you're 2 years old vet.
- prohibit lvl 4/5 missions for those in NPC corps.
- prohibit the use of certain ship types for said people. Like Hulks, Navy battleships, Marauders, etc.
- make at least 14 days timer for corp swapping. No need to say this is to prevent farmers from abusing current wardec mechanics.
It'll never happen!
For better or worse, the largest part of players are in noob corp!
That means that the largest part of CCP's income come from players in noob corp..... With me so far? That also means that income come from people who for one reason or another LIKE to be in noob corp.... Still with me?
So, CCP can put a few restrictions, but not the extreme you suggest because then they might lose a major chunk of their income.
With todays EVE playerbase, there HAS to be content which is relatively similar to todays for players who don't like to participate in the PvP game that is also EVE.
Since they bring income to the game too, they can't just be ignored. That is why your suggestion is as unrealistic as moving L4's to low-sec. Neither will ever happen (at least not without providing something similarly juicy to that majority of players).
If you stay in a noobcorp you really dont have any expenses anyway, so would a small tax on missions be a problem.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.19 19:23:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 19:26:27
Originally by: Mikayla Grey If you stay in a noobcorp you really dont have any expenses anyway, so would a small tax on missions be a problem.
I'm not arguing it is
What I'm arguing is that this tax is such a minuscule thing that it's not even worth arguing about ...and of.c. that if CCP implemented something that DID impinge on a lot of players fun, like the post I replied to, then it wouldn't get implemented...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Andra Zeit
|
Posted - 2009.09.19 19:34:00 -
[118]
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation
If this are realy Your wishes, move wars into Lowsec. Than Carebears have no reason to stay in npc Corps, You can higher taxes to 150000% and all Carebaers are in Playercorps and happy. And happy customers is, what CCP needs ;)
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.19 19:36:00 -
[119]
So our pro pvp'ers who stick to wardeccing high sec rookie corporations and camping stations they are in with BS with neutral guardian support needed some help in their tough life?
Because low sec where you can just shoot everyone is scary, with other people also looking to shoot you, imagine how scary that is.
If player corporations would add something that a NPC corporation doesnt do those people would move to player corporations, but the player corporations dont, the problem is with them, not with NPC corporations.
Change wardecs from pay to grief (yes paying 2M to get a week of free shooting on a group rookies is paying to grief) to something useful before doing stuff like this.
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HIBillyMaysHere
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Posted - 2009.09.19 19:39:00 -
[120]
If anything, it should be higher. The people in the NPC corps are getting an advantage that no other players in eve get, which is complete immunity from wardecs. They should pay for this advantage, and 11% is quite low. If anything that level of safety should be worth 30-40% tax, IMO.
The other reason for making the tax 30-40% is that keeping the NPC tax about even to average corporate tax just makes NPC's about the same as far as attractiveness goes to the player. Instead of having a tax advantage and a safety advantage, now they only have a safety advantage. If we really want to encourage them to join another (real) corp, we need to make the tax much higher than the average corp's tax rate to make them that more attractive.
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Jenny Superfood
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Posted - 2009.09.19 19:45:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: feminakitten
Oh and yes I joined a good group of people who had a young and growing corp and they were griefed constantly by a pirate mercenary corp until they folded.
Solutions: (a) Pay NPC tax. OR (b) Join a corp which is not fail!
Seriously, with all the claims that "omg, ebil wardeccers"... well, how about *tada* joining a high-sec corp which is able to protect its assets? It took me only a month or two to find (actually, they found me) a corp which actually did fight back in wars, even if most of us weren't very pro (we did have some skilled members / FCs though), and that was actually, you know, fun. Even as a nub with laughable skills.
Originally by: The letters underneath the character name on the left Cpt Branko The Scope
:facepalm: |
Furb Killer
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.09.19 19:50:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 19/09/2009 19:52:30
Quote: The other reason for making the tax 30-40% is that keeping the NPC tax about even to average corporate tax just makes NPC's about the same as far as attractiveness goes to the player.
That is assuming that the tax on player run corps is just used to fill the wallets of the CEO, and then you are still surprised people prefer to be in NPC corp.
Compared to any decent player corp, where the tax isk is used for the corp, there is no tax advantage for NPC corporations
Quote: If we really want to encourage them to join another (real) corp,p
Because a sandbox is all fine and cool, as long as people do what you want?
A vast majority doesnt fight wardecs, 0.0 corporations stick to 0.0 during wardec, low sec just stick to low sec during wardec, and highsec corporations stay docked up as much as possible. That isnt because they are all scared carebears (although a decent part is, which is the reason they are wardecced because fighting a group which cant fight back is always good), but because they got better stuff to do than playing station games with neutral repping alts, and the more fights you get the large the chance they continue the wardec.
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Jacob Mei
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.09.19 19:51:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Jacob Mei on 19/09/2009 19:54:22
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis
Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.
Even though I am in a player corporation I find this reason to be absolutely asine. You assume that everyone wants to be in a player corporation, that they want to band togeather and so on and so forth. BULL.
I spent a year flying solo perfectly content and happy, feeling that I was self employeed. Now you're "encouraging" people to group togeather. Shame on you.
Edit: Furthermore, if this is some hidden attempt to take a crack at macro miners and what not, all someone would have to do is setup a 1 man corp with 0 tax, have the alts transfer the loot to that individual and tada, macro penality circumvented.
This change is fail. On an unrelated note, Kneel before Zod! |
Andra Zeit
|
Posted - 2009.09.19 19:52:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Andra Zeit on 19/09/2009 19:53:56 Edited by: Andra Zeit on 19/09/2009 19:52:43
Originally by: HIBillyMaysHere If anything, it should be higher. The people in the NPC corps are getting an advantage that no other players in eve get, which is complete immunity from wardecs. They should pay for this advantage, and 11% is quite low. If anything that level of safety should be worth 30-40% tax, IMO.
The other reason for making the tax 30-40% is that keeping the NPC tax about even to average corporate tax just makes NPC's about the same as far as attractiveness goes to the player. Instead of having a tax advantage and a safety advantage, now they only have a safety advantage. If we really want to encourage them to join another (real) corp, we need to make the tax much higher than the average corp's tax rate to make them that more attractive.
The problem is wardecs in High. If I join a Player Corp I say "Yes, I want PvP!" Lots of Player wants a PvE System, without PvP against their will. Like a PvE Channels/Realms on other MMOGs. Either they leave EvE or will stay in the NPC Corp with 33% taxes. Is that all You want?
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Kerfira
|
Posted - 2009.09.19 19:59:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 19:59:27 I think I just found a pretty large flaw in the mechanics.... This is X-posted I know (from general), but probably belong here...
Originally by: Lui Kai
Originally by: Kerfira Question: Can't one-man corp be dissolved instantly without the 24-hour waiting period?
Yes.
That basically settles it, doesn't it?
This change will have absolutely NO practical implications!
Players now in an NPC corp who'd have to pay taxes after the change will simply move to a one-man corp.
When they get wardec'ed they simply drop the corp, and create a new one. The cost of that (for me) on sisi was 1.6m ISK, which is just about what I'd lose in an hour missioning due to taxes.
So in effect, all this will do is take social interaction that does happen in noob corp out of the game! Taking social interaction away from a game for no real gain is not really all that good for an MMO, is it? (yes, there is actually quite a lot of social interaction going on in noob corp)
PS: Incidentally, I think I also discovered a bug on sisi... If you try to create a corp with a name that is already taken, you get charged for it anyway
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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ian666
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.09.19 20:15:00 -
[126]
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis
Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.
Awesome change, but this will affect only a part of npc corp members. Tax wont affect miners you know. Think about some kind of mechanism that affects mining as a profesion, maybe lowering mining amount, increasing cycles or something simmilar that encourage people to join player corporations or create their own.
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Lunewraith
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.09.19 20:18:00 -
[127]
Nothings gonna change. Do you really think everyone in SWARTA is suddenly going to jump ship and create one man corps? For an 11% tax? Not a chance, not while every faction/complex pimped Golem/CNR, etc. still flies in Motsu. The risk, a minuscule chance of a wardec against a one man corp will keep most risk averse mission runners in their NPC corps so there is 0 chance of losing their pimp ride. They're just going to be a little extra grumpy come patch day.
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Slightly Stoopid
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Posted - 2009.09.19 20:21:00 -
[128]
Nobody ever seems to mention that the real carebares are the ones that can only pvp in high sec. I mean come on there is a mechanic built into the game called lawless null sec, where the only rules are player created. Which makes all this QQ pointless.Unless of course you find your PVP more successful fighting players that are fitted for Missions, mining etc rather than PVP.
Also if the average player corp tax rate is around 10% then all this does is make it fair for players in player corps that pay tax to make players in NPC corps to pay their fair share.
I have no problem with it and see it having little to no effect at all.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.19 20:34:00 -
[129]
No it isnt fair, since a player corp will, hopefully but not always sadly, use the tax money to invest in corp stuff, not to fill wallet of the CEO. So if you going to tax npc corporations, also give it back blueprints or something the npc corp members can use.
But yeah this only benefits people who like camping stations with neutral reppers.
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Sister Megarea
Sisters of Agony
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Posted - 2009.09.19 20:34:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Mia Morningstar
I didn't get taxed for killing 15k frigate nor 65k cruiser but I got taxed for killing a 160k BC... in BELT
also
I didn't get taxed 88k isk time bonus reward but got taxed 712k isk time bonus reward
Taxes kick in at 100,000 ISK and above.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.09.19 20:40:00 -
[131]
Why are people reading "It's a change meant to encourage" as "We are forcing". It is okay to stay in NPC corps and it is okay to stay as a loner. CCP is quite well aware this won't make many leave NPC corps and that is not what it is designed to do. People say they are content and actually want to fly alone. Then keep flying alone and either pay your taxes for wardec immunity or start a corp and avoid the taxes. Nothing is preventing people from doing this.
A lousy tax of 11%, that only effects mostly just missionrunners and only a small part of even their income, assuming they salvage too. The tax is lousy exactly because CCP isn't forcing you to do anything differently. It is there to remove one of the clear advantages of being in a NPC corporation and help balance the situation in this regard. It seems to be one of many changes coming, that make grouping much more attractive then it currently is. This is good, this is how things should be.
Those of you whining about their sandbox being removed are full of ****. You can keep doing everything you did before exactly the same way. Your actual gameplay isn't being changed in any way. NOT ONE THING ABOUT YOUR RUTINE WILL NEED TO CHANGE. Only your own greed might make you change your activities, but that is nothing new. That kind of balancing happens with every expansion and is how missioning became so lucrative in the first place. NPC corp taxes aren't any holier than any other mechanic in the game and this time it got changed to be comparable to the average player corp, nothing more.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.09.19 20:46:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Jenny Superfood
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: feminakitten
Oh and yes I joined a good group of people who had a young and growing corp and they were griefed constantly by a pirate mercenary corp until they folded.
Solutions: (a) Pay NPC tax. OR (b) Join a corp which is not fail!
Seriously, with all the claims that "omg, ebil wardeccers"... well, how about *tada* joining a high-sec corp which is able to protect its assets? It took me only a month or two to find (actually, they found me) a corp which actually did fight back in wars, even if most of us weren't very pro (we did have some skilled members / FCs though), and that was actually, you know, fun. Even as a nub with laughable skills.
Originally by: The letters underneath the character name on the left Cpt Branko The Scope
:facepalm:
Unlike you all he isn't complaining about the changes so your attempt at showing Irony just backfired quite a bit. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout :facepalm:
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Sister Alecto
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Posted - 2009.09.19 20:50:00 -
[133]
I am 100% in support of this. I think an NPC tax is not only a great idea, but furthers the suspension of disbelief: After all, the NPC corps DO have to pay their pilots, maintain stations, pay taxes to Concorde, send flowers to their mothers, etc.
Also, I think increasing the cost of a Wardec, especially the idea of making it inversely proportional to the sizes of the two corps affected (I.e. a 50 man corp attacking a 5 man corp would be more expensive than a 50 vs 50 wardec).
I think overall, this is a great change.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.19 20:54:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Sister Alecto Also, I think increasing the cost of a Wardec, especially the idea of making it inversely proportional to the sizes of the two corps affected (I.e. a 50 man corp attacking a 5 man corp would be more expensive than a 50 vs 50 wardec).
Eris just replied in the test server thread (which is actually where the discussion belongs). Important parts here:
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia - We have no plans at the moment to change wardecs
- As someone mentioned, the tax is more an encouragement and a nudge towards joining a player corporation than a command. You still have the choice to stay in the NPC corporation and in high sec and mine or run missions.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Jacob Mei
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.19 21:18:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue Why are people reading "It's a change meant to encourage" as "We are forcing". It is okay to stay in NPC corps and it is okay to stay as a loner. CCP is quite well aware this won't make many leave NPC corps and that is not what it is designed to do. People say they are content and actually want to fly alone. Then keep flying alone and either pay your taxes for wardec immunity or start a corp and avoid the taxes. Nothing is preventing people from doing this.
A lousy tax of 11%, that only effects mostly just missionrunners and only a small part of even their income, assuming they salvage too. The tax is lousy exactly because CCP isn't forcing you to do anything differently. It is there to remove one of the clear advantages of being in a NPC corporation and help balance the situation in this regard. It seems to be one of many changes coming, that make grouping much more attractive then it currently is. This is good, this is how things should be.
Those of you whining about their sandbox being removed are full of ****. You can keep doing everything you did before exactly the same way. Your actual gameplay isn't being changed in any way. NOT ONE THING ABOUT YOUR RUTINE WILL NEED TO CHANGE. Only your own greed might make you change your activities, but that is nothing new. That kind of balancing happens with every expansion and is how missioning became so lucrative in the first place. NPC corp taxes aren't any holier than any other mechanic in the game and this time it got changed to be comparable to the average player corp, nothing more.
Probably because thats actually what it is. When a CCP dev has to use a role play element to justfiy a change of this situation you know they are standing on a weak platform.
Wardec immunity? Loners already play with none of the benefits or advantages of flying with a player corporation, the biggest being that if you get cornered your on your own. So on top of not having access to a POS, any corp sponsored programs and having to fend for myself when the inevitable pvper comes along, CCP feels that should I go back to being a loner I should hand over 11% of my income as a wardec immunity? HA! Tell you what, ill accept your "wardec immunity tax" if CCP makes it so being in a NPC corp means concord will come to my defense with 1.0 system effiency. On an unrelated note, Kneel before Zod! |
Jack Jombardo
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.09.19 21:20:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 19/09/2009 21:23:58 Bad change. To FORCE somebody to a playstyle he do not like means to force him to leave the game.
Do you want this CCP?
Would be like forcing all these PvP junkys to mine 10 houres/week with there main (ak PvP) char. Man, this would call a whine tornado noone has seen before
PS: Or let hords of not salvageble and without loot drone attack 00 tower, if they are to far away from the home-system of the ally so they are FORCED to defend this tower against so much hated NPC without profit.
Originally by: CCP Nozh Where do tech 3 ships fit in?The goal has always been to have them considerably cheap, around the price of tech 2 cruisers.
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Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
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Posted - 2009.09.19 21:22:00 -
[137]
lol, npc corps You're posting again!? Has it really been 5 mins?
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Jenny Superfood
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Posted - 2009.09.19 21:26:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Blane Xero Unlike you all he isn't complaining about the changes so your attempt at showing Irony just backfired quite a bit.
And you are
A: missing the point B: making wild accusations C: using an inappropriate term
The point is that a toon is telling someone about finding a wonderful player corp, while he himself is in a NPC corp. Doesn't exactly make him a credible source, doubly so when you check his in-game employment history. I think it looks a bit silly, actually. That covers A.
Whether I like or dislike this change doesn't even enter the picture. Neither does his stance, when you look at it. Regardless, you seem content to make a slam judgement on my view on the thread topic. That covers B.
The term "backfire" means that an "attack" of some sorts not only has little or no effect upon its intended target, but actually "damages" the attacker instead. As nothing of the sort has happened here, the term doesn't apply.
(As for my stance? This change is too little, too late. I'm 90% certain that this is a knee-jerk reaction done solely to combat ISK sellers, who've been a constant nuisance in EvE for at least more than half of EvE's lifespan, utilizing in-game mechanics that AFAIK haven't changed since launch date. CCP have been aware of the problem for years and only now, when they finally realise the scope of the problem (that us players have known about since the beginning) do they actually try to tackle it. Actually, I fear this is only the beginning of the draconian "smeg the sandbox" kind of decisions we can expect from CCP.) |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.19 21:29:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Jacob Mei Wardec immunity?
In a one-man corp you don't have wardec immunity, but you can pay your way out of a wardec. Simply disband the corp (which takes 1 second after you've found the button), and create a new corp (costing 1.6m).
If you have a POS, this changes of.c., but the people who do are already in a one-man corp so aren't affected by this change anyway. The people who are affected will not have a POS.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Carl Mauser
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.19 21:30:00 -
[140]
Time to leave my two cents on that. I think it's not "carebear tears" that are pittyfull, our PVP-Heroes are pittyfull. Constantly whining about Hisec should be nerfed, Concord is unrealistic and Risk vs Reward is framed - but then they get to Hisec in a pod (as bad bad Navies would shoot their ship) or even use an Alt. I'm touched by so much courage
By the way, the reason for most people stay in NPC Corps is simply their way of playing. And which person with any human sense would go voluntarley in a fight against people who are better skilled, better equipped and have all their mates around to join into?
For the ones who like the "dark, harsh and cold place", i also have a nice quotation, which I found on the official website
Quote:
What is EVE Online?
In EVE you are free to choose your own destiny...
...You are not restricted by predefined character classes or professions. You can trade to make a living, conduct mining operations, market your fighting skills as a mercenary, camp the spacelanes for profit as a pirate, conduct espionage and infiltration, focus on research and manufacturing, or perform increasingly profitable missions for NPC (non player controlled, run by the EVE system) agents. What you choose to do day by day is up to you. You can play alone, form a corporation (equivalent of clan or guild) with a close group of friends or seek entrance to any of the large player run corporations and alliances already established...
That means to me, I pay 15Ç monthly for a sandbox game where I can do what I want and I'm not forced to anything. 11% isn't too much at the moment, if CCP however is considering to further increase taxation, i'll consider if the "15Ç payment vs reward" still suits with my interest.
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Jack Jombardo
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.09.19 21:32:00 -
[141]
PS: Can we get a change to wardec system then please?
- not able to wardec if your corp has less then 10 active members (twinks do NOT count) - not able to wardec a solo corp with an ally - not able to wardec if the total SP from your active member is more then double number of active members from target corp (twinks do NOT count)
This would mean, that it will be IMPOSIBLE to wardec a corp with 5 or less members. So jung corps have a changs to survive without beeing ganged all the time by some 50m SP vets!
Originally by: CCP Nozh Where do tech 3 ships fit in?The goal has always been to have them considerably cheap, around the price of tech 2 cruisers.
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Aqriue
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Posted - 2009.09.19 21:37:00 -
[142]
There is no real benifit aside from immunity to wardec while being in an NPC corp. We can't set up POS, which can be a real money maker. PC corps should be taxed like the NPC corps now when ever they dock and use the NPC corp stations, Quafe should be making some money off you when docking and your using their facilities to make money on the markets (screw faction standings at this point to reduce cost). PC corps shouldn't be able to research or store anything corp related inside stations to keep them safe anymore (ships, modules, expensive and heavily researched BPOs), the balance is everything to be used by the corp should be accessible at a POS, including non-allied corps who want to steal from you. CONCORD should be punishing gankers by removing insurance payouts and a heftier security standing hit, while also getting ****ty payouts and less standing from ratting to get it back up so gankers can back into high sec to gank again.
I don't trust anyone in EVE to join a corp just so they can steal my money to put into their wallet, after joining guilds/clans/social circles in other games and being dissappointed I could care less about PC corps which don't have any real benifit to me. If this goes through I am going to find some other space MMO to blow stuff up.
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Jacob Mei
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.19 21:38:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Jacob Mei Wardec immunity?
In a one-man corp you don't have wardec immunity, but you can pay your way out of a wardec. Simply disband the corp (which takes 1 second after you've found the button), and create a new corp (costing 1.6m).
Which to me seems to be a utter waste of time on the part of the agressor (2 days to declare a war undone in 2 seconds) and would put undue strain on the server when you consider how many 1 man corps that would be created and disbanded everytime a wardec went through. On an unrelated note, Kneel before Zod! |
Jack Jombardo
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.09.19 21:44:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Jacob Mei Wardec immunity?
In a one-man corp you don't have wardec immunity, but you can pay your way out of a wardec. Simply disband the corp (which takes 1 second after you've found the button), and create a new corp (costing 1.6m).
Which to me seems to be a utter waste of time on the part of the agressor (2 days to declare a war undone in 2 seconds) and would put undue strain on the server when you consider how many 1 man corps that would be created and disbanded everytime a wardec went through.
The victim can't do anythink to not be wardeced. Why should the aggressor be able to do somethink against the disband of a corp?
Oh wait, I know ... fair-play is unknow to those pirates :/. They are allowed to do all they want ... there victims, god forbit, should not be able to counter it in any way!
Originally by: CCP Nozh Where do tech 3 ships fit in?The goal has always been to have them considerably cheap, around the price of tech 2 cruisers.
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Jacob Mei
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.19 21:54:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Jack Jombardo
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Jacob Mei Wardec immunity?
In a one-man corp you don't have wardec immunity, but you can pay your way out of a wardec. Simply disband the corp (which takes 1 second after you've found the button), and create a new corp (costing 1.6m).
Which to me seems to be a utter waste of time on the part of the agressor (2 days to declare a war undone in 2 seconds) and would put undue strain on the server when you consider how many 1 man corps that would be created and disbanded everytime a wardec went through.
The victim can't do anythink to not be wardeced. Why should the aggressor be able to do somethink against the disband of a corp?
Oh wait, I know ... fair-play is unknow to those pirates :/. They are allowed to do all they want ... there victims, god forbit, should not be able to counter it in any way!
Im refering to the fact that it is utterly futile to continue on with this change as that is exactly what would happen and it would put undue strain on the server. On an unrelated note, Kneel before Zod! |
Ashina Sito
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.19 22:04:00 -
[146]
This change will do nothing. Real money trade pilots will continue to fly in NPC corps ignoring the Tax. Alt pilots of players that are already in player corps will do the same. Nether will this stop the use of NPC Corps pilots for hauling, marketeering or any other activity that player corporate members use alts in NPC corps for.
In the end of the only people that are hurt our people that choose to stay out of player corps. There already are a multitude of disadvantages to being in the NPC Corp. The tax provides no benefit to the pilot in an NPC Corp. Nor will it actually motivate that pilot to get involved in a player Corp. Absolutely nothing that CCP intends this change to achieve will happen. The singular exception is that mission runners in NPC corps will make slightly less money. If the idea is to reduce the ISK faucet for missions why not just reduce all mission earnings by 11%?
I'm less concerned about the loss of earnings then I am with CCP's lack of understanding of the players who consider in PC corps their home. Nearly every starter NPC Corp has its pilots hat stay in the Corp and consider helping out the new players an important thing to do. I have invested a lot of time and ISK over the years to make your game a better and more interesting place for your new subscribers. You have more players (customers) today because of these efforts. Yet, you still want me out of an NPC corp. A move that will make your game less interesting and engaging for your new players.
Players who have need player Corp will seek one out. Players did that do not fit into player corps will not be forced into them through a negative incentive such as tax. If this tax does not move more players into player corps, which it won't, what will CCP do next to motivate NPC Corp pilots into player corporations?
CCP's lack of understanding of this segment of the their player base is a further incentive for me to run for a CSM position in the next election. Guess we can dicuss this issue in Iceland in the future...
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Tom Hanks
Amarria Auxilia
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Posted - 2009.09.19 22:08:00 -
[147]
Good job CCP. Stick it to the noobs. I think this tax will have the desired effect. All the complaints about noobs getting their 5 man corps war decced will largely be a non issue. Most large corps or alliances wouldnt waste their time bothering with them. Good job!
Caldari Racial Purity
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Jack Jombardo
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.09.19 22:10:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 19/09/2009 22:12:51
Originally by: Jacob Mei
Im refering to the fact that it is utterly futile to continue on with this change as that is exactly what would happen and it would put undue strain on the server.
True and sure. I will do it too. Creating my own 1 man corp, disband it as soon as I'm wardeced and creat a new one as I hate PvP and have absolut sero interest in learning it.
Is it a abuse of the system? Maybe but who cares? If I see all the abuse from priates all day with container drobs infront of stations, remot repping from NPC CORP ALTS (who aren't effected by this change!!!!!!!!!!), griffing, stealing, insulting.
So yea, what do you do against this NPC corp remote rep alts @CCP? Will you hurt them too or should this be just a act against mission runners? Do you real hat them so much?
Originally by: CCP Nozh Where do tech 3 ships fit in?The goal has always been to have them considerably cheap, around the price of tech 2 cruisers.
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wickedpheonix
Guy Fawkes Trust Fund
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Posted - 2009.09.19 22:13:00 -
[149]
Guys, this isn't an RMT issue. The whole point of high sec and NPC corps is that they are newbie territory. Once you get ahold of the ropes and get some basic skills down pat you should be moving onto the real stuff, the real game, real risk and reward. Not having any tax whatsoever in NPC corps was anti-risk/reward, for high-sec mining corps with no POS, the only thing that being in a corp does is give you corp offices and hangars - i.e. in times of war it's easy to just keep a chat channel going and drop into NPC corp with no real ill effect. This changes that and makes PC corps more profitable than NPC corps and makes it more possible to have empire wardecs going.
That said, CCP is not *forcing* anyone to do anything with this. Taxes is still a very, very small part of most players income. If you don't want to join a PC corp you still don't have to.
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Sister Alecto
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Posted - 2009.09.19 22:17:00 -
[150]
OMG, the *whining* in this thread.... wow.
No one is "forcing" anyone to do anything. You will not be forced to join an NPC corp. Any rewards or bounties below 100,000 ISK are non-taxed. Any rewards of bounties above 100,000 ISK are taxed, paying for the stations you dock at, CONCORD salaries and the crappy cafeteria food in the pilots lounge.
11% is pocket change. I dunno about you folks, but I make most of my PvE money from loot and salvage, which is not subject to the corp tax (ours is set at 10%, which pays for a lot of member benefits)
And to those who keep going on about how "thousands will quit/leave/not renew" - Get over yourselves. As has been pointed out before, all you chicken littles say this with EVERY Eve change and there are *NO* changes in subscriber levels due to changes like this.
Again: 11% tax on newb corps: Good call, CCP.
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Jack Jombardo
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.09.19 22:20:00 -
[151]
Originally by: wickedpheonix Guys, this isn't an RMT issue. The whole point of high sec and NPC corps is that they are newbie territory. Once you get ahold of the ropes and get some basic skills down pat you should be moving onto the real stuff, the real game, real risk and reward. Not having any tax whatsoever in NPC corps was anti-risk/reward, for high-sec mining corps with no POS, the only thing that being in a corp does is give you corp offices and hangars - i.e. in times of war it's easy to just keep a chat channel going and drop into NPC corp with no real ill effect. This changes that and makes PC corps more profitable than NPC corps and makes it more possible to have empire wardecs going.
That said, CCP is not *forcing* anyone to do anything with this. Taxes is still a very, very small part of most players income. If you don't want to join a PC corp you still don't have to.
This tax does not effect: - remot rep alts from pirates - afk mining alts from low/00-sec PvPers - hauling alts from pirtes/PvPers - traide alts - producer alts - griffer alts
It will just hurt Mission runners ... so this IS a "force" against those players! It just hurts the player with one account, one char who has no interest in PvP (and will not get this interest equal what CCP does) but likes to shot some NPC stuff after he came from work at the afternon and want to relex while shoting this NPC stuff.
Originally by: CCP Nozh Where do tech 3 ships fit in?The goal has always been to have them considerably cheap, around the price of tech 2 cruisers.
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Ashina Sito
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.19 22:22:00 -
[152]
Originally by: wickedpheonix The whole point of high sec and NPC corps is that they are newbie territory. Once you get a hold of the ropes and get some basic skills down pat you should be moving onto the real stuff, the real game, real risk and reward.
And who pray tell will teach people the ropes? In CAS there are many players that can answer questions of all types, all hours of the day. The first thing a pilot learns in Eve is to close Rookie chat and ask your question in your NPC corp chat. If it only filled with clueless new people who will help the new pilots along?
To learn you must have a teacher.
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Kadoes Khan
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Posted - 2009.09.19 22:23:00 -
[153]
This encourages 1 man corps and reduces social interactions amongst mission runners currently in NPC corps.
People that want to join player corps will join player corps those that don't will either suck it up and pay the tax anyways or create a 1 man corp. The only benefit out of all this is pirates being able to grief those 1 man corps, which they probably won't because it's too damn troublesome to maintain wardecs on people that would likely just log into an alt and/or just sit in station trading until the pirate's heads explode from boredom.
I can't help but think this changes true purpose was to appease a few whiners that wouldn't shut up. -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity." |
Jack Jombardo
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.09.19 22:25:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Sister Alecto Any rewards of bounties above 100,000 ISK are taxed, paying for the stations you dock at, CONCORD salaries and the crappy cafeteria food in the pilots lounge.
So where is the tax those mentioned above pay? Miner alts, hauler alts, pirate/pvp remot rep alts and and and? Oh wait ... they aren't effected AT ALL!
And the "whining" in this thread is by far not as stong as all the whine over the years from all this highsec griffer who wardec small corps with all low SP chars to get free and riskfree kills. Check the forums and simply count all "nerv highsec" posts. You will find thousend of them!
So who is the real "whiner"? For sure these highsec griffing pirates!
Originally by: CCP Nozh Where do tech 3 ships fit in?The goal has always been to have them considerably cheap, around the price of tech 2 cruisers.
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Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.09.19 22:32:00 -
[155]
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 19/09/2009 22:32:53 Overall its a meh issue
you pay 11% of mission/ratting income to the npc cort to get Wardec imunity
Vs giveing it to some clueless **** who thinks selling ships for less than the mineral value = profit(aka the typical Player corp leader) and who gets war decked at least once a month.
or you can join the faction war corp (hey your going to get shot at anyway might as well at least be able to set up your scanner so you can exclude thoes who will not be shooting at you becaus there in the same faction)
or you can join the usualy mindnumbingly boreing mess that is 0.0 currently so you can tune out the various leaders and FC almost non stop whining on the coms about what sucks more, Sov or WoW tards or Console tards or there total lack of sex life.
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.*
Stop freaking worrying about why things the developers did 5 years and more ago no longer make sense. |
Mahke
Aeon Of Strife Dominatus Atrum Mortis
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Posted - 2009.09.19 22:37:00 -
[156]
This + the new SOV upkeep makes me think CCP finally woke up to the inflationary trend recently and decided to introduce this to fight that; this just being a fairly popular way of doing it.
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Carl Mauser
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.19 22:38:00 -
[157]
Once more, the F.A.Q. clearly say
Quote:
What you choose to do day by day is up to you. You can play alone, form a corporation (equivalent of clan or guild) with a close group of friends or seek entrance to any of the large player run corporations and alliances already established.
It's all up to the players, and those who want to play by themself, can do so. Therefore nobody can claim people are intended to join player corps - that's not what CCP wrote.
Current situation in Hisec hold these Risks: - Suicide Ganker - Can Thiefes - Can Baiters - Ninja Salvagers - Mission Item Thiefes
CCP said, these things are intended and work with game mechanics.
Player corps have 0 - ?% tax and provide things as: - ISK Donations - Ships - Fire Support in Missions - Fire Support in PVP Situations
Now NPC corps get 11% tax and provide nothing!
1.) Concord protection applies to People in NPC Corps as well as to Player Corps in Hisec alike. 2.) Wardecs could been evaded and will still be evaded by leaving and joining another Player corp
So if there will be a NPC Corp taxation, i would like to have: - The oportunity to choose the NPC Corp that I'm listed for - Fire support in Missions (maybe for additional ISK) - Fire support when attacked by other players
That would at least make some sense RP wise and is fair enough for the drawbacks that Dominion will bring for Players in NPC corps.
I'm strictly against unilateral nerfs
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Ashley Thomas
Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.19 22:45:00 -
[158]
just for kicks and giggles, can we have the ability to view the npc corp wallets to see how much isk comes in with the change?
Veritatum Cognoscere |
Mahke
Aeon Of Strife Dominatus Atrum Mortis
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Posted - 2009.09.19 22:49:00 -
[159]
Carl, you can talk about the pros/cons all you want, but, the only real deciding reasons to join a player corp in hisec are pvp opportunities and a consistent group of people to hang out with (reasons why I have been in empire corps for long times).
If you're a loner personally and don't want to pvp, all that blah-blah doesn't make the bother of being in a corp worth it. This is generally, not just for mission running. People inclined to corp-up do so and people un-inclined to don't, and npc corp tax won't change that (I don't consider making a corp with you, your alts, and your one RL friend who plays EVE to be actually participating in a player corp)
The best thing CCP can do to encourage people to join up in player corporations is to make 0.0 accessible for larger numbers of players. Mechanically, it appears that dominion will do that: we'll have to see whether or not the powerblocks decide to just lock everyone out of player-controlled 0.0 to keep their huge empty buffer zones or not, and if CCP can sufficiently make that option less attractive mechanically. We'll have to see what happens but, I have high hopes everything will work out well eventually after reading CCP's vision for 0.0 blog.
An 11% tax honestly won't be the deciding factor in this. Changes to 0.0 space will.
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Jack Jombardo
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.09.19 22:49:00 -
[160]
Main problem still: it ONLY hits mission runner who have just one acc and one char.
It does not hit all alts equal if trader, miner, pirate or whatever.
Do you realy want it this way CCP? To nerv one profession while leaving all the other alone? And yes, it is a nerv. Not more, not less.
Originally by: CCP Nozh Where do tech 3 ships fit in?The goal has always been to have them considerably cheap, around the price of tech 2 cruisers.
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Jacob Mei
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.19 22:52:00 -
[161]
Edited by: Jacob Mei on 19/09/2009 22:53:31 Player corps:
Strictly game mechanic: +fellow players to interact with +able to setup and use a POS +organized fleet operations +can be part of an Alliance +Jump clone access + Can create a war dec +Offices for secure ship/mod/ammo depots -Viable target for a war dec -Taxes
Player added perks: +Ship replacement program (from taxes) +Free modules (from taxes) +PVP training courses (indirectly funded from taxes) +Safety in numbers +Blueprint library (from taxes) +Command structure +Logistics structure -obligated fleet operations (ie your time is not your own) - If your corp come become infamous, that attaches itself to you.
NPC corps:
Strictly game mechanic +Nonviable target for war dec +Tax free -Can not setup a POS -Can not rely on corp standing for jump clones (get the standing yourself bucko) -Unable to create a wardec
Player added perks: +You are your own boss +your actions alone dictate your standing in the eve community - You are on your own when it comes to defense -No command structure to speak of -No logistics structure (you have to move everything yourself bub) -No blueprint library (any bluprints you want, you have to invest the isk to get)
I think the above pretty much breaks down what each side actually provides a player. Taxes for a player corp are (if the corp is a good one) for the funding of various player added programs and is a minor negative for an otherwise overwhelming positive situation to be in. On the other hand putting a tax on the NPC corps does nothing positive for the player.
This whole issue illustrates humanities inability to comprehend alternate choices of social interaction. If the majority are doing something it must be right, and therefore anyone else is an idiot or worse. Never mind the fact that those who choose otherwise may do so for their own reasons.
On an unrelated note, Kneel before Zod! |
Schayol Sunkeeper
Imperial Crusade Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.09.19 23:04:00 -
[162]
while taxes on npc corps may sound good, i think it misses the point.
of course beeing unable to be wardecced bypasses a huge amount of risk ( remember, highsec is not safe, only safer ), but the major issue is with multi accounting.
- logistic alts ( combat and hauling stuff ) - safe ISK income - intel - etc.
this is in my opinion a major exploit. it removes the possibility to achieve economoic victories ( as in draining ISK until you can't buy good stuff anymore ) or crushing support lanes.
i'd propose the following:
- corp changing should have a 48h cooldown ( to prevent bunnyhopping 1 man corps ) - members in npc corps should have their usage of ships limited:
- No logistic or industrial ships
- No t2 mining ships
- No faction gear, ships or modules
- no t2 combat ships
- this would mean no change at all for new players, only a small change for casual gamers, but severly nerfing npc alting and npc corp heavy users - npc corp taxing is not required that way
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Daneshi SnowCrash
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Posted - 2009.09.19 23:15:00 -
[163]
I will now make a prediction.
A multitude of 1 man bands all appear due to this change. A LOT. CCP, not having thought of this consequence because they thought it'd make people (i.e. the socially ******ed) band together, get major issues with the database tables dealing with corps and/or alliances if they're the same thing.
Forums explode with massive QQing over the rising rent of corp offices, slow downs, crashes and other weirdness.
That's my prediction for January 2010.
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Carl Mauser
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.19 23:19:00 -
[164]
It's getting even more hilarous. The idea behind EVE clearly said, that everyone can play as they like and people aren't forced to adapt a certain kind of gameplay. Any limitations to NPC corps will violate that principles.
How about some changes to further improve EVE life? - Navies and Concord will now Podkill blinky people in Pods - Gates to lowsec will be guarded and ships jumping into Low will have to pay 25% duty on every value in their cargohold - Transactions in any form to People with negative security standing will cause penalty payments for supporting criminals - Wardecs can only be declared on Corps with the same or greater size then your own
Would fit RP wise also
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Mikayla Grey
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.19 23:22:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Ashina Sito
Originally by: wickedpheonix The whole point of high sec and NPC corps is that they are newbie territory. Once you get a hold of the ropes and get some basic skills down pat you should be moving onto the real stuff, the real game, real risk and reward.
And who pray tell will teach people the ropes? In CAS there are many players that can answer questions of all types, all hours of the day. The first thing a pilot learns in Eve is to close Rookie chat and ask your question in your NPC corp chat. If it only filled with clueless new people who will help the new pilots along?
To learn you must have a teacher.
The newbies are better off learning stuff by themselves or joining a real corp to learn stuff rather than listen to the bitter noobs that stay in npc corps.
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Schayol Sunkeeper
Imperial Crusade Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.09.19 23:23:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Carl Mauser It's getting even more hilarous. The idea behind EVE clearly said, that everyone can play as they like and people aren't forced to adapt a certain kind of gameplay. Any limitations to NPC corps will violate that principles.
No it doesn't
you can still stay in a npc corp and do what you want. it would be a violation if they force-remove you after 6 months of npc corping. but they don't
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Chris Reiter
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Posted - 2009.09.19 23:25:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Schayol Sunkeeper i'd propose the following:
- corp changing should have a 48h cooldown ( to prevent bunnyhopping 1 man corps ) - members in npc corps should have their usage of ships limited:
- No logistic or industrial ships
- No t2 mining ships
- No faction gear, ships or modules
- no t2 combat ships
- this would mean no change at all for new players, only a small change for casual gamers, but severly nerfing npc alting and npc corp heavy users - npc corp taxing is not required that way
Brillant! Can I have back the training time measured in months and weeks aimed towards a hulk and iteron 5? I would like to add to your so intelligent idea, T2 ships can't shoot T1 ships (T1 ships can't fight T1 as well) in any where in EVE and all combat must be done with T2 ships so that the wallets and coffers hurt like an STD when you pee. That way I can hang out in Delve during the next war and watch the fireworks as neckbeards slug it out.
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Higgs Foton
Scoopex Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.09.19 23:27:00 -
[168]
blablablabla
I say: remove security status from the game. Make everything 0.0 No need for taxes.
And then we let New Eden BURN. Muhahahahahahahah.
___________________________________
Ich auch, bin schwul
Please resize sig to a maximum file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.19 23:29:00 -
[169]
Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 23:36:03 I feel this change has been poorly thought out, or maybe not being thought about at all. It smells way too much of some spur-of-the-moment impulse than the product of reasoned argumentation or pro/cons and what effects it'll have.
First, lets see which groups of player types are members of NPC corp:
- People who just want to do their own thing in EVE
- People who like interaction with other players, but dislike PvP
- Money-making mission alts of people in low-sec/0.0
- Hauler/scout/miner/trader alts
- Mission farmers
- Other farmers
- People (usually newbies) who'd like to join a player corp
- The undecided
Second, what possible reactions are there for players to this change:
- Stay in NPC corp
- Create disposable 1-man corp
- Join player corp
Now, let me try to predict which reaction each of the above groups will have:
- Option a or b. They don't care about interaction, and might accept a tax
- Option a. They'll feel punished for liking to chat to others but not wanting to PvP
- Option b. They're there to make the most money with least effort. Any interaction with other people is done in his main's corp.
- Option a. This change does not affect them.
- Option b, since this enables them to make the most money
- Option a. This change does not affect them.
- Option c, but they'd have done so anyway.
- They'll eventually join group 1, 2 or 7...
So a change like this'll annoy some people (group 2) who'll feel they're being punished for wanting to be social but not PvP (some of these people are great at helping newbies too), and simply cause others (group 1/3/5) to use game mechanics (1-man corp) to avoid the consequences.
Essentially there's NO effect on one half (or whatever the split is) of NPC corp members, and the other half will feel they're being punished for not playing like CCP wants (which is not what THEY want). Pirates drooling to wardec newbies will also be disappointed as they experience one corp disbandment after the other. So you get a neutral effect on some players, and a negative effect on others (positive/neutral/negative is in this case relating to how this affect the game's appeal to the player)
In all, no positive effects of this change... Why do it then?
While I do agree with the goal, this is sadly not the way to go around it. If you want to encourage/nudge/whatever players to move into a player corp, then you need to look at not only NPC corp taxes, but also:
- High-sec earnings (especially L4's) being at least par with 0.0, and way above low-sec
- Wardec/corp mechanics
Unless you do that, AND make a unified design (taking these into account) for how you see the social structure of EVE, this change will be useless at best, damaging at worst.
Quite simply, I think that if you fixed the disparity between earnings in high-sec and 0.0/low-sec (the famous risk/reward), then whatever effect you HOPE to get from this change would actually happen for those players even remotely interested. The players not interested in PvP could then continue their form of EVE in high-sec, and even in NPC corp if they so wished. They'd not earn anywhere near as much ISK as the ones who face the risks of 0.0 or low-sec, but I think you'll find far more acceptance for that concept than an arbitrary tax on being in an NPC corp.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Chris Reiter
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Posted - 2009.09.19 23:42:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Mikayla Grey
The newbies are better off learning stuff by themselves or joining a real corp to learn stuff rather than listen to the bitter noobs that stay in npc corps.
Great way to impress new players by dismissing them. Most corps won't take a useless pilot asking why WASD isn't moving their ship or if they leveled up when they appeared back in the med bay after a trip to low sec. I have seen new players quit while on trial because of an attitude like yours directed towards them, which is another target for you and a monthly subscription to CCP in their pocket.
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Doris Dents
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Posted - 2009.09.19 23:51:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Ashina Sito
Originally by: wickedpheonix The whole point of high sec and NPC corps is that they are newbie territory. Once you get a hold of the ropes and get some basic skills down pat you should be moving onto the real stuff, the real game, real risk and reward.
And who pray tell will teach people the ropes? In CAS there are many players that can answer questions of all types, all hours of the day. The first thing a pilot learns in Eve is to close Rookie chat and ask your question in your NPC corp chat. If it only filled with clueless new people who will help the new pilots along?
To learn you must have a teacher.
They'd be better off just guessing rather than listen to clueless bears boasting about their 80 million skillpoint mains and crying about pirates.
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ElCholo
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.09.19 23:54:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Verone
I disagree with the concept of applying this from the outset.
However, TQ should watch a player's time in NPC corps, and when the cumulative time reaches 90 days, the corp tax should start to be applied at 50% tbh.
So for instance if a rookie creates a character in the Federal Navy Academy, he has 90 days to make his first ISK and look for a player corporation. After that he starts to get taxed by [FNA] at 50%.
If he then joins a player corp, their tax applies as set by the CEO. If he leaves, one of the following two situations occurs.
If his time in NPC corporations is <90 days, the clock keeps ticking, so if he initially spent 40 days in an NPC corp before being employed then he has 50 days before the NPC corporation he's placed in upon leaving (I believe FNA starter end up in The Scope) starts to tax him at the rate of 50%.
If his time in NPC corporations is >90 days, he begins to get taxed at 50% immediately on leaving the player corporation.
Would sort out the issue of people being "immune" in high sec by hiding in NPC corps.
I actually really like this idea. It would make things much more fair for those people who've been hiding in an NPC corp for the last several years.
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AkJon Ferguson
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Posted - 2009.09.19 23:55:00 -
[173]
New Eden is like America. It's a place built by brilliant men currently under the management of clueless idiots.
This is a stupid idea.
CCP should fire the 'unreadable rp fiction' devs and the 'stupid new idea' devs who came up with this abomination and hire more 'fix what's broken' devs.
I'd be happy to join a player corp if they offered me a friendly social environment and 0% tax. Those corps don't exist. Rather they're largely a bunch of sociopaths who are interested exclusively in griefing and getting rich on my back.
I'm happy doing a weekly FNA fleet op to low-sec and doing my own thing the rest of the week. Stop peeing in my sandbox CCP!
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FT Diomedes
Gallente Factio Paucorum
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Posted - 2009.09.20 00:01:00 -
[174]
Looks like a good change to me. 20-25% is probably a better figure, however.
...this doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.20 00:02:00 -
[175]
I'll put a devblog up on this next week
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Eoras Northwind
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.20 00:25:00 -
[176]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave I'll put a devblog up on this next week
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation
Why?
No seriously, why should people be encouraged to join a player corporation, particularly with penalties? Why should a casual player who may not login for days or weeks at a time want to invest time in a group that will just kick them out for not slavishly tying themselves to a GAME? This doesn't address why someone would WANT to remain in a NPC corp, just adds another restriction. (Here's a hint: the ISK making opportunities in player corps exceeds that in the starter corps)
Is it so they can play with other people? What keeps them from doing that in the starter corps? Their guns certainly don't stop working, their minerals aren't bad, their inventions aren't broken. I can fleet with a 3 year member of a veteran corp in a huge alliance and he or she with me.
Also, can CCP explain the people who keep getting bounced back into the 'failure' NPC corps from their player corps? If it's to play with other people how can these 1 man 'solo mission runner' corps be explained?
Under this new system I'm guess they'll be hopping corps to avoid wardecs.
Originally by: Ariane VoxDei The only real way to 'hurt' the use of npc corps is putting some seriously sick draconian limits on what ships you may use (make active/get onboard) while in a npc corp.
That's pretty much what it will take. I'm in an NPC corp because I causally play when I want to, not because I fear the gank. You can't declare war on me, but then I cannot declare war on you either. My experience with Eve is already rich, to circumscribe my playing to the point that I would want to change it would make starting anew a very poor proposition.
Originally by: Kerfira For better or worse, the largest part of players are in noob corp!
To quote econ dev blog no. 3 - some statistics on corporations
Originally by: There are 174,000 active characters with more than 2 million skillpoints and of those 138,000, or 79%, are in player corporations.
Of total there are more in NPC starter corps, but those are largely < 2 million SP. In other words, most players in NPC starter corps are recently started players (or alts with no skill training.)
So, if most players over a certain age are already in a player corp, why does CCP need to encourage players to move?
Originally by: Andra Zeit
If this are realy Your wishes, move wars into Lowsec. Than Carebears have no reason to stay in npc Corps.
Originally by: wickedpheonix
The whole point of high sec and NPC corps is that they are newbie territory. Once you get ahold of the ropes and get some basic skills down pat you should be moving onto the real stuff, the real game, real risk and reward
I'd hope that the quotes from other CaS members, Chip Fluxes and syphurous in particular, help dispell this notion. CaS is our home. And there is no grotty politiks to keep up with or get kicked out. We may play alone or together or with other people. But being in an NPC corp doesn't take us out of the game (sans SoV) in any way.
Originally by: Urgg Boolean
Why should we be encouraged to join a player corp? I find many corps are filled with objectionable politics and sociopathic nerds that I do not want to know or interact with
This is why 11% won't be enough.
It will however mean there is great incentive to make sure you are charging members at least 10%. While 0% would be a charity, being less than the NPC corp the new player came from is still great.
Also, how about this 11% going toward the faction warfare corps? Then it would at least have some use. (Not my idea, stolen from the NPC corp player Magosian)
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Schayol Sunkeeper
Imperial Crusade Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.09.20 00:26:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Chris Reiter
Originally by: Schayol Sunkeeper i'd propose the following:
- corp changing should have a 48h cooldown ( to prevent bunnyhopping 1 man corps ) - members in npc corps should have their usage of ships limited:
- No logistic or industrial ships
- No t2 mining ships
- No faction gear, ships or modules
- no t2 combat ships
- this would mean no change at all for new players, only a small change for casual gamers, but severly nerfing npc alting and npc corp heavy users - npc corp taxing is not required that way
Brillant! Can I have back the training time measured in months and weeks aimed towards a hulk and iteron 5? I would like to add to your so intelligent idea, T2 ships can't shoot T1 ships (T1 ships can't fight T1 as well) in any where in EVE and all combat must be done with T2 ships so that the wallets and coffers hurt like an STD when you pee. That way I can hang out in Delve during the next war and watch the fireworks as neckbeards slug it out.
your whole post is irrelevant, you'd just join a player corp and continue using every skill and ship you earned
oh, or are you saying you really are npc corp alting ?
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RedSplat
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Posted - 2009.09.20 00:54:00 -
[178]
Stop whining that this only hurts missionrunners.
level 4 grinding in highsec will STILL be the most profitable profession available to the masses- and it will still be riskless.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
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Chris Reiter
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Posted - 2009.09.20 00:54:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Schayol Sunkeeper
Originally by: Chris Reiter
Originally by: Schayol Sunkeeper i'd propose the following:
- corp changing should have a 48h cooldown ( to prevent bunnyhopping 1 man corps ) - members in npc corps should have their usage of ships limited:
- No logistic or industrial ships
- No t2 mining ships
- No faction gear, ships or modules
- no t2 combat ships
- this would mean no change at all for new players, only a small change for casual gamers, but severly nerfing npc alting and npc corp heavy users - npc corp taxing is not required that way
Brillant! Can I have back the training time measured in months and weeks aimed towards a hulk and iteron 5? I would like to add to your so intelligent idea, T2 ships can't shoot T1 ships (T1 ships can't fight T1 as well) in any where in EVE and all combat must be done with T2 ships so that the wallets and coffers hurt like an STD when you pee. That way I can hang out in Delve during the next war and watch the fireworks as neckbeards slug it out.
your whole post is irrelevant, you'd just join a player corp and continue using every skill and ship you earned
oh, or are you saying you really are npc corp alting ?
Your follow up suggestion is irrelevant, I am not interested in ****ing Wars: Mesurements of E-peen. EVE is supposed to be an open sandbox where I can do what I want, not what others want me to do. I want to play my game, leave when I have to, and not worry about getting asploded because I went AFK outside of a station for 2 minutes to take a **** while my ship undocks. I prefer not lining the pockets of CEO's who will steal it 99% of the time or spinning in the docking station while I wait for skills to finish. I am not in a player corp and that restricts me already from all activities associated with them, restricting a player thats not in one to T1 ships should mean PC corp players shouldn't be able to take T2 ships into highsec just like capitals.
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Kadoes Khan
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Posted - 2009.09.20 00:56:00 -
[180]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave I'll put a devblog up on this next week
I look forward to the laugh. -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity." |
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Schayol Sunkeeper
Imperial Crusade Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.09.20 01:10:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Chris Reiter
Your follow up suggestion is irrelevant, I am not interested in ****ing Wars: Mesurements of E-peen. EVE is supposed to be an open sandbox where I can do what I want, not what others want me to do. I want to play my game, leave when I have to, and not worry about getting asploded because I went AFK outside of a station for 2 minutes to take a **** while my ship undocks. I prefer not lining the pockets of CEO's who will steal it 99% of the time or spinning in the docking station while I wait for skills to finish. I am not in a player corp and that restricts me already from all activities associated with them, restricting a player thats not in one to T1 ships should mean PC corp players shouldn't be able to take T2 ships into highsec just like capitals.
you didn't answer my question
also judging by your text, eve is not the game for you
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Metalcali
Dreams In Digital
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Posted - 2009.09.20 01:35:00 -
[182]
Edited by: Metalcali on 20/09/2009 01:35:31
Originally by: Schayol Sunkeeper
Originally by: Chris Reiter
Your follow up suggestion is irrelevant, I am not interested in ****ing Wars: Mesurements of E-peen. EVE is supposed to be an open sandbox where I can do what I want, not what others want me to do. I want to play my game, leave when I have to, and not worry about getting asploded because I went AFK outside of a station for 2 minutes to take a **** while my ship undocks. I prefer not lining the pockets of CEO's who will steal it 99% of the time or spinning in the docking station while I wait for skills to finish. I am not in a player corp and that restricts me already from all activities associated with them, restricting a player thats not in one to T1 ships should mean PC corp players shouldn't be able to take T2 ships into highsec just like capitals.
you didn't answer my question
also judging by your text, eve is not the game for you
Ah, I love watching people rage so hard over the game and a few changes, or even ideas. Makes paying the monthly subscription worth it to read these forums ---
Originally by: CCP Mitnal Locked.
OP does not contain an idea.
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Brolly
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.20 01:46:00 -
[183]
wow, so many frothing at the mouth
Little will change, those PVP'ers with hard-ons will be bitterly disappoint, PVE'ers will whine hard and a lot of people will not give a damn, such as myself.
A minor inconvenience, yes, big game altering thingum, no.
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Harkwyth Mist
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.09.20 01:51:00 -
[184]
long over due ...
but about 9% too low
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Magosian
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Posted - 2009.09.20 02:24:00 -
[185]
What really irritates me about this change is the fact that the ISK goes into a black hole. If there is a problem with highsec residents making too much ISK, perhaps the source of the ISK needs to be evaluated. If CCP wants to promote player operations outside of highsec space....oh wait, they already did that with wormholes.
I have no problems with a tax, but to throw it away is really a slap in the face.
How about pooling it and giving to alliances/corporations who participate handidly in faction wars? I'd gladly part with some of my ISK if I knew it was going to people who actually need it. It'd be killing two birds with one stone.
I suspect, however, this is just some blanket answer to snuff out inflation caused by the PLEX market.
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Flex Nebura
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.20 02:26:00 -
[186]
There is a lower limit on income tax. low bounty rats and lvl 1 possibly lvl 2 rewards wont get taxed and as such wont affect new players unless they kill fast enough to get a big chunk of bounties in one go. This needs to be looked at and adjusted by the Devs so it wont hurt new players too much.
Older players should suck up the tax hike and stay put. Or find or create an alternative corp or game. Noone is forcing anyone to do anything. Its being suggested that if you dont like the taxes you have options.
There are many nice corps out there and I feel sorry for those that have only had bad experiences. But you dont have to come out and play. Also making a small corp is dead easy and for the most part people will leave you alone. My corp has never been war decced in the close to 3 years its been running. Never had anyone steal ore from me, nor have I been wardecced for stealing other peoples ores. It has also given me the option to test out ship fittings in combat against my corp mates and we have had a few nice pvp fights in low sec when we were so inclined.
Oh and as far as psycotic behavior in player corps. I have seen far worse in npc corp chat and the public channels.
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Flex Nebura
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.20 02:38:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Flex Nebura on 20/09/2009 02:46:51 Clearly most people have no idea how much they are really going to pay in taxes. You wont hardly notice its missing. out of about 30 missions you would be missing out on the bounties of 1 of them. Not that much different than if you got a drone mission. or a courier mission that paid next to nothing anyway... Although some the drone missions do pay damn well once you refine the alloys.
Miners wont notice unless they are mining in low or null sec and are able to kill the cruisers or above that spawn there.
Also another boon of being in a player corp is being able to tractor your corp mates loot cans even if they've gone to get another mission in another system.
Oh and you dont get concordokenned for accidently attacking a gangmember from your corp.
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Rick Skynight
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Posted - 2009.09.20 03:16:00 -
[188]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave I'll put a devblog up on this next week
Oh good a devblog. I'll be interested in seeing how you justify punishing NPC corp members.
I mean wow... For my 11% do I actually get any added benefits? Or am I stuck with the same old "Know-it-all-Alt that comes in to harrass npc corp members about why they aren't in a player corp" perk?
CCP is going to become as twisted as SOE.. I can see it.
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Rick Skynight
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Posted - 2009.09.20 03:24:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Flex Nebura Edited by: Flex Nebura on 20/09/2009 02:46:51 Clearly most people have no idea how much they are really going to pay in taxes. You wont hardly notice its missing. out of about 30 missions you would be missing out on the bounties of 1 of them. Not that much different than if you got a drone mission. or a courier mission that paid next to nothing anyway... Although some the drone missions do pay damn well once you refine the alloys.
Miners wont notice unless they are mining in low or null sec and are able to kill the cruisers or above that spawn there.
Also another boon of being in a player corp is being able to tractor your corp mates loot cans even if they've gone to get another mission in another system.
Oh and you dont get concordokenned for accidently attacking a gangmember from your corp.
Its not about the isk, its about the principle of the matter. People don't like to be told what to do or how to play the game. Player corp people don't need a nudge, what they need is to be allowed to make their own decision on where they want to be and how they want to go about doing it.
Im seeing constant whining from player corpers about how the tax should be more or is long over due. Wow cool.. Pay my subsription and then I'll play the game the way you want.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.09.20 03:51:00 -
[190]
Quote:
Its not about the isk, its about the principle of the matter. People don't like to be told what to do or how to play the game. Player corp people don't need a nudge, what they need is to be allowed to make their own decision on where they want to be and how they want to go about doing it.
CONCORD should be removed in deadspace. I don't like being told that I can't warp into hisec missions and blow up missionrunners. WHy can't I play the game my way?
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Ndidi
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Posted - 2009.09.20 03:59:00 -
[191]
I'm a carebear and proud of it.
11% in the grand scheme of things really is peanuts, so I'll just have to run 1 more mission to get the isk back.
No big deal.
I must admit the whining from all those of you in player corps is quite ammusing though
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Sri Nova
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Posted - 2009.09.20 04:20:00 -
[192]
11% tax is just wrong . The people who support this tax just want to punish those áwho donÆt care to interact with others on a corp lvl due to either time constraints or they just donÆt like people (which there is nothing wrong with).
Rule number 1 of any game isá ôIs it fun?ö
Greif tactics such as this 11% tax (yes I mean greif!) are only meant to force people into positions they do not want to be in ásuch as joining a corp for which they do not have the time to deal with . therefore killing the fun factor.
Yes being in a corp requires time. Time spent interacting and paying attention to what all the idiots are doing. Are we war decced? Is everybody getting along? Can I undock ? Is player John smith to be trusted ? So now your player base who wants nothing to do with thisá has to incur a penalty thatÆs going to cost them around 22 million isk per npc corp personalá wallet based off your QEN . ááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá " Average ISK per character wallet varies from 46 mil- lioná ISKá for players withá 1,000 ûá 1,500á login minutes,á toá 1.1á billioná ISKá asá theá character reaches the 100,000 minute mark. The aver- age time playing per character was 2.4 hours a dayá in May. Averageá ISK per walletá takes a signiicantá jump once players passá 15,000 loginá minutes,á whichá meansá thatá afterá ap- proximately 100 days of playing the average character has more than 200 million ISK " á this is a steep price to pay for wanting to be left alone to play the game áwhich is supposed to be fun . but now the player has to grind more trying to make up for this penalty and that is not fun. á Another interesting fact from your QEN " isá theá ISK per wallet by security space. The highest amount of ISK per wallet per character is in nullsec space, with the average character holding 470 million ISK. Playersá in hisec andá lowsec space have similar amounts, but withá lowsec slightly higher. The high amount of average ISK in nullsec can account for the replacement cost of ships due to nullsec warfare and piracy. It is surprising to note that there is hardly any difference between lowsec and hisec." á so those of you who are yelling that carebears in highsec are fat greedy bears that need to be taxed are just plain wrong and need to shut up as it clearly stated that those who live in null sec are the fat ones with all the isk .
The QEN did state how ever that 70% of in game pop is located in high sec.á and obviously ásomeone got the bright idea that a tax would resolve this problem . Well first it is not a problem, you have to realize that some people do not want to deal with corps. Unfortunately it looks like you have a high percentage who feels this way.
Again it is not a problem. á People will join corps when they are ready. This artificial push to move people into a environment that they do not wish to be involved in is short sighted and not fully thought through. CCP has a couple of changes in the pipe that will help get players into corps without a tax .
The sov changes are going to be one of the major factors. Also the ingame browser (albeit unexpected )will definitely have a impact on getting players into corps as access to information will be eaiser.
CCP is going to penalize those casual gamers who play eve for a few hours a week and do not make millions of isk a day . These same players are the type of players that corps do not want as they are unproductive and are usually a hassle to bring up to speed on the fast changing situations that corps are usually involved in.
The last thing you need is a artificial tax that does nothing for the in game community and is only there as a deterrent to those who do not wish to dedicate the required amount of time to be in a player based corp.
ditch the tax and focus your programing resources on other more productive game changes that benefit us all. instead of changes that makes greifers happy.
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Hollonder
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Posted - 2009.09.20 05:06:00 -
[193]
LOL! After reading the majority of the posts on this thread, I can't seem to get the mental image of "feeding time at the 'gator farm" out of my head.
It seems like all the veteran PVP psychos are salivating in unison for the wholesale slaughter rights to the noobs and lite gamers on EvE who now get the choice to either stay in the relative safety of a noob corp where it will be even harder to make any financial headway. OR, join a player corp and constantly have to watch their backs for the people who think killing noobs in their hard earned, ill equipped ships "just because they can" is a fun evening.
What lovely choice.
I for one will stay in my NPC corp. I figure a tax on mission rewards is nothing compared to the cost of replacing ships, equipment, and implants over and over so I'm fine with that. What I don't like however, is the feeling that this tax is some form of punishment for not wanting to be PVP pwnfodder.
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Rick Skynight
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Posted - 2009.09.20 05:11:00 -
[194]
Edited by: Rick Skynight on 20/09/2009 05:13:03
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Its not about the isk, its about the principle of the matter. People don't like to be told what to do or how to play the game. Player corp people don't need a nudge, what they need is to be allowed to make their own decision on where they want to be and how they want to go about doing it.
CONCORD should be removed in deadspace. I don't like being told that I can't warp into hisec missions and blow up missionrunners. WHy can't I play the game my way?
If you think you can beat me, you are always more than welcome to warp into my missions in lowsec. Just because I and others are in an npc corp never ever meant that we stayed in highsec.
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Kalia Masaer
Rosa Castellum
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Posted - 2009.09.20 06:23:00 -
[195]
11% seems pretty cheap considering the one major benefit of being in an NPC corp is, no war decs!!. And the cost is only slightly higher than the average tax a player corp charges. Really it will have little effect on the game other than removing the extra award for being in an NPC corp which already provides the juge benefit of not being war dec'd.
It is a way to balance NPC and Player corps somewhat. I've had plenty of people I've tried to recruit say "oh you have a 10% corp tax I don't want to pay 10% tax."
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari The Confederate Navy Forever Unbound
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Posted - 2009.09.20 06:30:00 -
[196]
Edited by: Ancy Denaries on 20/09/2009 06:30:19 GREAT addition, but I agree with Bellum. It needs to be in the regions of 20% in order to really motivate people to move. An 11% reduction is not too bad, really. But it does put a dent in missionrunning, which rocks.
Oh I cannot wait for the cries of terror and howls of redemption :D ----- Why doesn't anyone ever read the forums before posting? EVE is a game of adaptation and planning. Adapt or die. |
I SoStoned
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.20 06:31:00 -
[197]
Christ I hate this 5 minute timer when it takes 20 seconds to post a reply:
But this, simply:
Eleven percent? ELEVEN? That's just a joke and won't make a dint in the droves of mission grinding carebears.
Here's the fix you want:
10% base tax for NPC corps, +1% tax per month in the corp. This will slowly push the grinding 'bears out of the corp but not unduly penalize legitimate players leaving a corp to look for another.
I only want *one* important change: when a war is declared all members of the corp/alliance declared on are flagged as war targets, even if they leave the corp!!!. A harsh end needs to be brought down with the hammer of Nerfdom to stop corp jumping war dodgers who are 90% of the time the targets you're declaring to get a shot at anyway.
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Chip Flux
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.20 06:48:00 -
[198]
There is not one chance that i will be cohersed out of CAS. I will not become a pArt of your pointless fight, What are you fighting for chumps?
NOTHING, you fight cos you are told
I will fight for nothing less than the fictional freespace allience
If I am not inspired to ruin the best game I ever played, by joining a corp to fight anything silly enough to explore MY MY MY, bit of EVE, is it any wonder?.
I dont mind sharing ok?
this is not my ishtars bandwidth nerfed, you are attacking my very EVE
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Thallidus
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Posted - 2009.09.20 06:50:00 -
[199]
This does little to actually promote people to join player corps, and a fair bit to open the door for people to have a terrible first corp experience.
Want new players to join corps early? Make the punishments for high-sec griefing (wardecs) much higher. There's no faster way to make a new player give up on corps entirely then having his first one fold under the pressure from a high-skillpoint griefer corp.
I know these forums, they'll just say "those people belonged in WoW anyway! Good riddance!" but that is the path to game failure and obscurity via slowly dwindling player numbers. There's constant turnover in MMOs, if you're not attracting new people eventually the old people leave and the game withers.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.20 07:10:00 -
[200]
Quote: Oh good a devblog. I'll be interested in seeing how you justify punishing NPC corp members.
Oh dont worry about that. Knowing CCP they just do it because they think being in a player corp is more fun than not being in one, so they think they are 'helping' those people in NPC corporations.
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.09.20 07:11:00 -
[201]
Everyone saying the tax on npc corps needs to be higher are morons... This change is going to make everyone join 1 man corps- thats it. your going to have thousands of 1 man corps because most established corps (read- nullsec) DO NOT RECRUIT. And your not going to be able to kill them in a war dek either- they will leave their one man corp and join another one man corp- TRY AND STOP THEM
Your stuff iz mine through actions |
Ancy Denaries
Caldari The Confederate Navy Forever Unbound
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Posted - 2009.09.20 07:15:00 -
[202]
Edited by: Ancy Denaries on 20/09/2009 07:16:25
Originally by: Chip Flux There is not one chance that i will be cohersed out of CAS. I will not become a pArt of your pointless fight, What are you fighting for chumps?
NOTHING, you fight cos you are told
I will fight for nothing less than the fictional freespace allience
If I am not inspired to ruin the best game I ever played, by joining a corp to fight anything silly enough to explore MY MY MY, bit of EVE, is it any wonder?.
I dont mind sharing ok?
this is not my ishtars bandwidth nerfed, you are attacking my very EVE
That's what you think? That life outside "NPC corp-shoots-red-crosses-all-day" is like that? You are the very reason I approve of this change. Get out of your shell and experience what EVE really is about. ----- Why doesn't anyone ever read the forums before posting? EVE is a game of adaptation and planning. Adapt or die. |
Kallana Wren
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Posted - 2009.09.20 07:42:00 -
[203]
Here's a question. Player corps all charge taxes to maintain infrastructure, and allow for expansion. Why should NPC corps not be the same? Are they magically able to generate the necessary operating capital from thin air?
Stay in the NPC corps if you like, but now there's no longer a direct financial reason to do so. When so much more of the game exists, this is really just a mechanic to make the 10-15% tax rate of most player corps not as big of a psychological hit to newer players. In the long run it's insignificant.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.20 07:50:00 -
[204]
Quote: Here's a question. Player corps all charge taxes to maintain infrastructure, and allow for expansion. Why should NPC corps not be the same? Are they magically able to generate the necessary operating capital from thin air?
So what you are saying is that the tax in NPC corporations should be used to buy blueprints that all members can use? Then the tax would be fine for me.
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Chip Flux
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.20 07:56:00 -
[205]
if you want all my billions then you are welcome to them, i will buy some plex to replace my hard earnt isk, np no, ...I am proud of what I have achieved in EVE, I will not be told that I am lame by the very people I want to look up to and respect, the people who make the game I play and love....
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Anima Aquinas
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.20 08:09:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 23:36:53 First, lets see which groups of player types are members of NPC corp:
- People who just want to do their own thing in EVE
- People who like interaction with other players, but dislike PvP
- Money-making mission alts of people in low-sec/0.0
- Hauler/scout/miner/trader alts
- Mission farmers
- Other farmers
- People (usually newbies) who'd like to join a player corp
- The undecided
Second, what possible reactions are there for players to this change:
- Stay in NPC corp
- Create disposable 1-man corp
- Join player corp
Now, let me try to predict which reaction each of the above groups will have:
- Option a or b. They don't care about interaction, and might accept a tax
- Option a. They'll feel punished for liking to chat to others but not wanting to PvP
- Option b. They're there to make the most money with least effort. Any interaction with other people is done in his main's corp.
- Option a. This change does not affect them.
- Option b, since this enables them to make the most money
- Option a. This change does not affect them.
- Option c, but they'd have done so anyway.
- They'll eventually join group 1, 2 or 7...
This quite frankly is pretty spot on, players like myself (group2) will experience either apathy to this change or a negative outlook.
I don't give a **** about PVP, MY EVE is not about PVP, its about PVE, production, research and eventually invention.
I get none of the benefits of being in a PC (shared blueprints, readily available research slots in stations) and i get a laughable concord protection (i can still get ganked, stolen from, shot at, etc).
The 11% tax is not a thing i would care about if it went somewhere useful (like the FW corps that has already been suggested). What i do care about is the fact that CCP feel the need to "encourage" me into a PC with a negative effect on my current game play (it may only be a little change but it is still negative).
Also, why are you only taxing NPC Corps to "fund concord" (as your roleplay excuse was) when Concord protect Everyone in hisec, seeing as Concord seem pretty corruptable as they accept bribes to allow wardec's can i request that my taxes afford me proper protection and result in concord podkilling any ganker that wants to shoot at me? (ya i know its not going to happen but if i pay for protection i want a decent level of protection).
I won't be leaving my NPC corp (CAS) because it offers me the freedom to do what i want, when i want, where i want, without having to worry about getting a wardec shoved up my ass.
short recap: MY EVE is not PVP, my EVE is PVE, its a sandbox, i want to build a sandcastle to my own design not someone else's.
I'll await the devblog on this, but i won't hold my breath waiting. |
Kagan Kashgar
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Posted - 2009.09.20 08:40:00 -
[207]
I'm thinking there should be an empire wide tax (say 4-9%, maybe raise the sales tax or add purchase tax), then some corp tax (1-10%), npc or pc corp. Everyone who makes ISK in highsec space should pay for the security CONCORD guarantees. CONCORD should not be the one collecting the taxes but the empires, the empires might have different taxes even. Or maybe the jumpgates should have a toll fee or stations docking fee, the more ppl visit the higher the fee. All in all ~20%tax would be fine. Transaction or transfer tax? Anything over 20% tax will just make everyone more careful with their ships. Problem is, old don't like new 'cos new are carebears, can't fit correctly or even if they could they don't have the skill blaablaablaa. Who builds the ships, who mines the minerals and most of all what is the foundation of the economy? Maybe a complete pvp-free highsec, that'd be worth the higher than 11% ;P All I can see from the ones saying it should be much higher is the bloodthirsty stare of having the chance to grief some st*pid id*ot carebear that don't pew pew. And yes, I do mostly missions in highsec but enjoy the occasional probing of deep, dark and sometimes dangerous place. Least of all I find forced pvp fun when ganked by some or other gatecamp.
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GenrlBaconbits alt
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.09.20 08:56:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Verone
I disagree with the concept of applying this from the outset.
However, TQ should watch a player's time in NPC corps, and when the cumulative time reaches 90 days, the corp tax should start to be applied at 50% tbh.
So for instance if a rookie creates a character in the Federal Navy Academy, he has 90 days to make his first ISK and look for a player corporation. After that he starts to get taxed by [FNA] at 50%.
If he then joins a player corp, their tax applies as set by the CEO. If he leaves, one of the following two situations occurs.
If his time in NPC corporations is >90 days, the clock keeps ticking, so if he initially spent 40 days in an NPC corp before being employed then he has 50 days before the NPC corporation he's placed in upon leaving (I believe FNA starter end up in The Scope) starts to tax him at the rate of 50%.
If his time in NPC corporations is <90 days, he begins to get taxed at 50% immediately on leaving the player corporation.
Would sort out the issue of people being "immune" in high sec by hiding in NPC corps.
fixed --- I'm totally not an alt..of an alt...of a purchased char... |
Mikayla Grey
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.20 09:01:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Chris Reiter
Originally by: Mikayla Grey
The newbies are better off learning stuff by themselves or joining a real corp to learn stuff rather than listen to the bitter noobs that stay in npc corps.
Great way to impress new players by dismissing them. Most corps won't take a useless pilot asking why WASD isn't moving their ship or if they leveled up when they appeared back in the med bay after a trip to low sec. I have seen new players quit while on trial because of an attitude like yours directed towards them, which is another target for you and a monthly subscription to CCP in their pocket.
Read it again. I dont dismiss new players but the bitter 80 mill sp noobs that you find in npc corps. Newbies are much better off learning on their own than listening to the players in npc corps.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.20 09:08:00 -
[210]
Quote:
It's not in the sisi patch notes because I don't know how to edit them, I think I have to mail them to someone who has access to it and then it is edited in. This hsn't been properly set up yet but for the next sisi update I think there will be more and more accurate notes ( at least from me)
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis
Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.
And how do you deal with this?
1) Have 1 man corp alt accepting missions. 2) NPC corp missioneer does the job 3) 1 man corp alt takes the rewards with 0% tax.
- Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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coeathal vega
Gallente Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.09.20 09:30:00 -
[211]
Long time coming, well done CCP.
Also it should be higher than 11%, more like 30% and then increasing as time goes by. ----
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F'uhk Mi
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Posted - 2009.09.20 09:39:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Urgg Boolean My experiences in 0.0 have introduced me to players who are not only sociopathic, but psychopaths who spew the sickest form of dialog that I have only seen matched by my most violent patients...
ROFL!
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.09.20 09:47:00 -
[213]
Originally by: wickedpheonix Guys, this isn't an RMT issue. The whole point of high sec and NPC corps is that they are newbie territory.
Show one shred of evidence to suggest this is the intent or the case, nowhere is it stated or implied that NPC corps or Empire territory are there just for the noobs. NPC corps are there for people who do not have a player corp. Something like 90% of EVE's playerbase live in Empire, out of all the vastness of low-sec and nullsec space, it accounts for a dim minority of the playerbase. Ask yourself why and it will give you hints to why people are still in NPC corps.
I prefer to be in 0.0 Alliances but to be in good ones requires a pretty heavy time investment and heavy commitment, the last corp I was in was in major conflicts for all but about 3 weeks out of 9 months, it is a huge resource requirement, both of time and of isk. I don't have the time or the isk atm.
When I am in Empire, the plan is to build up the wallet. Nothing a player corp can offer in Empire will help in any way and npc corp taxes will just make the dull and boring part of EVE 11% longer for those in NPC corps.
I can just sit in my own alt corp but I enjoy the channels to chat, some of them are pretty funny, and don't mind helping the noobs with advice during times I am in npc corps. It is very easy to get around the changes and to play with the level of risk that exists in Empire, it just comes with additional hassle, it seems an unnecessary hassle.
If you REALLY want people to join player corps, just get rid of Concord and make players under 5m SP undamagable by players over 5m SP (just prevent them from locking any player over 5m SP, so no invulnerable remote reppers). You will then see real PvP in Empire with no bull**** restrictions. If you have wardecced a corp and someone from that corp comes in system then you can't dock. If you are going to declare war, then don't be complete and useless cowards when they show up with other than a hauler.
That would make Empire fun and interesting but EVE will probably lose a significant chunk of the userbase.
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Jack Jombardo
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.09.20 10:32:00 -
[214]
So when do we get tax on mined/refined Ore? When do we get tax on traded/hauled stuff? When do we get tax on owned value of starbase cargo? When do we get tax on stolen/griffed stuff? When do we get jail for kills in CONCORD controled (LOLOLOL) regions?
What does CONCORD give us back for the tex the will get with this change? Will CONCORD try to bring us back the lost stuff when a Pirate stoll our mission loot (most important the stuff we need to finish the mission!!)? Will CONCORD punish the one, who steal our stuff?
Can't player who did not pay this tax still use all the NPC benefits (ak station services)? If yes - WHY ?
CCP, this tax is the absolut wrong way to bring player into privat Corps. And you just hit one type of player - non alt Mission runners.
And you (again) favor all form of criminal activitis as remote-rep alts, grif-alts (scan frig in highsec) and so on are all not effected. Hell you even open new forms of grif like creat corp, get mission runner, wardec as soon as enough are in. This way you even know where they are and don't need to scan/hunt them anymore.
This tax is a pur fail!
Originally by: CCP Nozh Where do tech 3 ships fit in?The goal has always been to have them considerably cheap, around the price of tech 2 cruisers.
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Mikayla Grey
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.20 10:38:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Jack Jombardo
What does CONCORD give us back for the tex the will get with this change?
Immunity from wardecs and a near immunity from pvp in any form isnt enough?
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Ticarus Hellbrandt
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Posted - 2009.09.20 10:41:00 -
[216]
The npc tax should be more, far to many mission farming carebears hide out in npc corps, afraid of the world. Isk farming mission runners also hide in npc corps.
The number of carebear tears in this thread is astounding, it is about time ccp did something to nerf these mission farmers.
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Chip Flux
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.20 11:06:00 -
[217]
Afraid? I am not afraid Give me a ring and I will slug it out with you I expect your brave corp will need be nearby though
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Qing Jao
Caldari Salvation Army.
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Posted - 2009.09.20 11:15:00 -
[218]
12.5 sounds perfect ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salvation Army. - Doing The Most Good |
Slobby Jobby
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Posted - 2009.09.20 11:55:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
It's not in the sisi patch notes because I don't know how to edit them, I think I have to mail them to someone who has access to it and then it is edited in. This hsn't been properly set up yet but for the next sisi update I think there will be more and more accurate notes ( at least from me)
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis
Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.
And how do you deal with this?
1) Have 1 man corp alt accepting missions. 2) NPC corp missioneer does the job 3) 1 man corp alt takes the rewards with 0% tax.
This is exactly right. This change seems a bit silly to me because it's so easy to get around. It'll just be a tax on noobs, not professional high-sec mission runners.
Also, I've been in a one-man corp and wardecs just aren't an issue if you're not drawing too much attention to yourself. There's really just no point in trying to gank a one-man corp.
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Jonathaniuz
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.20 12:03:00 -
[220]
tax given to npc:s must be the most stupid idea ever.
If theres to much missioning isk then reduce it from the source instead of taking some of it back in "tax".
Using tax to encourage people to leave npc corporations is just uncreative.
Its a sandbox game, add more stuff you cant do solo instead, inspireing people to join together and perhaps start a corp down the line.
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Adam Ridgway
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.20 12:20:00 -
[221]
Increase corp creation to 100 mill. and alliance creation to 5 bill. please.
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Carl Mauser
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.20 12:29:00 -
[222]
How come people who doesn't work for CCP at all, tell other people what they have to do? What gives them the right to declare "this is the way the game was meant"? Shouldn't they be more interested in features that support their interest in lowsec?
CCP should reckon at least one thing. All the hatred spilled in this thread, the spitting and kicking against people in Hisec come obviously from Lowsec guys - which aren't affected at all beeing in Player corps. What gives people that much energy to support a feature, which doesn't affect them at all? Jealousy, Grudge or simply antisocial behaviour?
It's a notable tendency that CCP either ignores, or mildly supports this form of player harassment. Think of Hisec Ganks, Canbaiting, Can Stealing, Ninja Looting or Stealing mission items. Most every MMORPG so far has clear rules and borders to protect players interests regarding PVE and PVP. IF CCP want to change EVEs game content from a Sandbox to an PVPonly concept, they should anounce officially. I'm not going to further spend money for a game that goes against my player interest and support people who are unable to accept others opinion and motivations.
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Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.20 12:48:00 -
[223]
Edited by: Nyota Sol on 20/09/2009 12:48:22
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 18:00:21
Originally by: Nyota Sol Obviously eve would survive, but it WOULD have less subscribers...
To repeat!
Do you know how many times this argument has been made when CCP propose changes? Probably EVERY single time!
Do you know how many times MMO developers made huge, unnecessary changes to "make the players play differently" and lost tons of players?
This isn't a normal change.
CAS 101 Eve Musings |
Nyota Sol
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.20 12:54:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Jonathaniuz tax given to npc:s must be the most stupid idea ever.
If theres to much missioning isk then reduce it from the source instead of taking some of it back in "tax".
Using tax to encourage people to leave npc corporations is just uncreative.
Its a sandbox game, add more stuff you cant do solo instead, inspireing people to join together and perhaps start a corp down the line.
yes, another person of sound mind.
If they want to shift people away from missioning, then you do that by ADDING features to the game and IMPROVING viability of other activities. Not by taxing basic mechanics that have existed for years. Not by punishing players in the sandbox who are doing fundamental options that have been in the game for years. This is nothing more than a petty ideological attack on NPC corps which fits their rhetoric along these lines all summer. Somebody at CCP needs to challenge this mentality a bit.
CCP... use your brains. This won't accomplish your stated intention.
Improve ratting. Improve mining. Improve all the half-baked pve content you've rolled out but never finished. You'll see this type of taxation isnt needed.
Heck... make militias more viable for new players.
CAS 101 Eve Musings |
Julian Lynq
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Posted - 2009.09.20 13:15:00 -
[225]
Ccp should consider dropping this change.
A good game designer will notice when an Idea doesn¦t work out as planned and then scrap it. This is what makes Blizzard successfull. They may work on a game for 3 years and then they notice its crap and just throw it in the bin.
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Kalia Masaer
Rosa Castellum
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Posted - 2009.09.20 13:45:00 -
[226]
Eve has the advantage of CCP doing what they think it needs whether we want it or not, they do listen to us and if we provide good solid logical reasons that outway the reasons they intend implament something they usually listen. CCP has done plenty of things I didn't like, they nerfed my falcon but really considering it now I can see it for the better as it could jam from further than most dedicated sniper ships could fire.
As long as they implament what the game needs to be better then it doesn't matter how much we all complain, and do not forget something like the NPC corp tax will not be a game breaker and if it is not working out they can always remove it.
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Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
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Posted - 2009.09.20 13:51:00 -
[227]
lol
So, what exactly is this going to change? Those that can't be bothered will stay and make a little less isk. The rest will just create 1-man corps.
2 days after release:
Player announcements:
Tranquility's back end server crashed today because several players created their own corp. Over 80k player corps where created, and more attempts where made until we finally had to shut the server down in fear of loosing data. It will take at least a month to recover from this crash. Apologies for any inconveinience.
PS: No game time will be refunded as a result of this crash. If we did refund any game time, we'd go bust.
WTS: 1-man corp with 0% tax
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Dungheap
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.09.20 13:55:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Ticarus Hellbrandt The npc tax should be more, far to many mission farming carebears hide out in npc corps, afraid of the world. Isk farming mission runners also hide in npc corps.
The number of carebear tears in this thread is astounding, it is about time ccp did something to nerf these mission farmers.
wow, so much hate and ignorance condensed into a few lines. how do you explain your presence over 2 yrs in npc corp ?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.20 13:57:00 -
[229]
Quote:
If they want to shift people away from missioning, then you do that by ADDING features to the game and IMPROVING viability of other activities.
They cannot improve the other activities, because they are just fine as is. Missioning is long known to yield to disproportionate profits, it's why every single time CCP makes an expansion or adds a new feature, there's always and only 1 voice: "lol this new feature is useless it yields less than L4 farming".
If every single feature in game is either riskier or worse profit, then the one sticking out needs nerf.
And I say this having 2 missioning characters and 2 alts farmed so that I can mission both for empire and 0.0 pirate factions with no standing screwups on the real missioning characters.
- Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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JC Ferguson
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Posted - 2009.09.20 13:59:00 -
[230]
EVE is like Prime Arkonor, and current CCP Devs are like noobs with no refining skills hellbent on refining it anyway instead of leaving it alone until they know what they're doing. Go mine Veldspar (fix bugs) you noobs!
If you want to charge a CONCORD tax, then it should be an optional charge like insurance or clones and applied to EVERYBODY who wants CONCORD to blow up people who aggress them in hi-sec.
If it's about fairness: I have never mewled in forums about removing t2 bpo's from the game or removing insurance for ships blown up by CONCORD from the game or having CONCORD pod folks with -10 sec status who stroll through hi-sec with impunity while I get pulled over for having a few slaves in my hold. I haven't complained because that's how the game was when I arrived and changing it would have a significant detrimental impact on someone else's playstyle. Same principle applies here.
Stop griefing noob corps CCP! GTFO my sandbox!
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari The Confederate Navy Forever Unbound
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Posted - 2009.09.20 14:28:00 -
[231]
Edited by: Ancy Denaries on 20/09/2009 14:29:01
Originally by: Slobby Jobby
Originally by: Vareah Varokha And how do you deal with this?
1) Have 1 man corp alt accepting missions. 2) NPC corp missioneer does the job 3) 1 man corp alt takes the rewards with 0% tax.
This is exactly right. This change seems a bit silly to me because it's so easy to get around. It'll just be a tax on noobs, not professional high-sec mission runners.
Also, I've been in a one-man corp and wardecs just aren't an issue if you're not drawing too much attention to yourself. There's really just no point in trying to gank a one-man corp.
For being carebears you are surprisingly clueless. Bounties for the NPC corp missioner is still subject to tax (which is the large part of the missionrunners income), in addition to the cost of an extra account, unless you enjoy relogging every 15 minutes. ----- Why doesn't anyone ever read the forums before posting? EVE is a game of adaptation and planning. Adapt or die. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.20 14:56:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries Edited by: Ancy Denaries on 20/09/2009 14:29:01
Originally by: Slobby Jobby
Originally by: Vareah Varokha And how do you deal with this?
1) Have 1 man corp alt accepting missions. 2) NPC corp missioneer does the job 3) 1 man corp alt takes the rewards with 0% tax.
This is exactly right. This change seems a bit silly to me because it's so easy to get around. It'll just be a tax on noobs, not professional high-sec mission runners.
Also, I've been in a one-man corp and wardecs just aren't an issue if you're not drawing too much attention to yourself. There's really just no point in trying to gank a one-man corp.
For being carebears you are surprisingly clueless. Bounties for the NPC corp missioner is still subject to tax (which is the large part of the missionrunners income), in addition to the cost of an extra account, unless you enjoy relogging every 15 minutes.
1) It's a well known fact that in EvE you are much better with 2 (or more accounts), many have them. Farm some money, buy a PLEX and you can have your cyno alt / freigther alt / low sec + 0.0 scout alt / trader alt / industry alt
2) The one statistics over many missions ever posted Link, show bounties as overall 27% of the total missions income. Taxing that, brings the tax on the alt down to just 2.97%.
- Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.20 15:51:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha 2) The one statistics over many missions ever posted Link, show bounties as overall 27% of the total missions income. Taxing that, brings the tax on the alt down to just 2.97%.
Thanks for reading! I'm glad you found it useful
The figure you quote is actually slightly outdated (there are a couple of updates later in that thread, duly referenced at the bottom of the first post).
Bounties account for 24% of mission income, and monetary rewards for 7% (which are also taxable). This is a total of 31% taxable income, which would translate the 11% into an overall tax percentage of 3.41% if you run missions like I do (which is killing/looting/salvaging everything).
Note that loot is calculated on the basis of mineral value, so if selling valuable named items by themselves (as I do, but I CBA to calc it), that part will be slightly higher, thus taxable percentage slightly lower.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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humilityAmarr1lstesson
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Posted - 2009.09.20 18:37:00 -
[234]
I want to say something derogatory but IÆll just bump this
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Butter Dog
Gallente The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.09.20 18:43:00 -
[235]
this is a great, great change
make it a bit more though ----------
AKA 'Bitter Dog'
Failing at everything he does in EvE since '05 |
Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.09.20 19:12:00 -
[236]
Originally by: syphurous Who's going to mentor the new players in the NPC corps ? Who's going to give them their first taste of PvP. Explain the mechanics they face every day, and help them find their way ? Help them find a place for them in the greater scheme of things.
They accomplish this the same way I did back in 2006. I spent my first 20 days in an NPC corp. People need to read the friggen forums and ask questions (not everyone is an *******). They then need to do a little research and join a player run corporation that they think will work for them. And they need to pay attention to what is explained to them. Just because CCP wants people to get out of NPC corporations it does not mean the sky is falling. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it. |
chaosjj
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Posted - 2009.09.20 20:43:00 -
[237]
this is a bad idea, there are lots of people including myself who want to be independent, of player corperations, i've had nothing more than bad experiance with player corp's, and now getting money as a independant pilot is getting harder. thanks alot
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.20 22:17:00 -
[238]
Edited by: Kerfira on 20/09/2009 22:17:24
Originally by: chaosjj this is a bad idea, there are lots of people including myself who want to be independent, of player corperations, i've had nothing more than bad experiance with player corp's, and now getting money as a independant pilot is getting harder. thanks alot
It's actually not going to be that much harder. Just create a 1-man corp, and if it gets wardec'ed, disband it (takes 1 second after you found the button), and create another one. There is no 24-hour waiting period as when you leave a corp. It'll cost you a minor amount of ISK, but it is less than what the wardec costs
What you DO lose out of by this change is the social interaction you may have with other people in your NPC corp, but I guess social interaction is not that important for CCP to have in their MMO....
Plenty of people are happy about the social interaction they get from the NPC corp, but will now get punished for it.... Go figure, because I can't see the logic in that...
These players are ALREADY in a corp that suits them... Their corp management doesn't scam them, they're free from a type of 'interaction' (getting shot at) that is not what they want, and the social stuff that goes on in the NPC corp are in many cases better than what goes on in player-run corp.
I can only explain this by CCP not having a clue about which type of players are in the NPC corp and why they're there....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.21 01:05:00 -
[239]
look at all the shrieking hysterical little NPC corp babbies in this thread.
But yeah, 11% isn't going to encourage anybody to move, bump it to 20-25% and then maybe we'll be getting somewhere. Alternatively, a progressive income tax where players pay a varied percentage according to their earnings might help shift the hardcore farmers without penalising the genuine newcomers too harshly.
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Argo Nix
Minmatar Ars Technica
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Posted - 2009.09.21 01:51:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon look at all the shrieking hysterical little NPC corp babbies in this thread.
But yeah, 11% isn't going to encourage anybody to move, bump it to 20-25% and then maybe we'll be getting somewhere. Alternatively, a progressive income tax where players pay a varied percentage according to their earnings might help shift the hardcore farmers without penalising the genuine newcomers too harshly.
It shocks me whenever I hear a sensible suggestion from a Goon, but there it is (of course he couldn't make it without injecting some of the famous Goonie vitriol first).
I agree that progressive tax based on earnings or, as I have seen suggested elsewhere, a progression based on time in corp/age of character would be a better incentive. |
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Flex Nebura
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.21 02:02:00 -
[241]
Edited by: Flex Nebura on 21/09/2009 02:04:46
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
And how do you deal with this?
1) Have 1 man corp alt accepting missions. 2) NPC corp missioneer does the job 3) 1 man corp alt takes the rewards with 0% tax.
That just gets around the mission reward. NPC corp missioner would still have to pay taxes on the bounties. Also I assume you plan to keep the 1 man corp alt safely docked but I dont think he will get the mission completed update needed to finish the mission while in station.
and Im sure the tax is being introduced to curb some of the low risk isk being made in high sec. Some mentioned that traders wont get hit by this. but they often take a higher risk either when moving high value goods or when making a bad bet on the market. also they lose some isk to transaction taxes
Those that want to keep every last isk for them selves will either have to join a corp with 0 tax or make one of their own and see if they can offer safety from war decs and griefing at a lower cost or with better success than the NPC corp. As far as war decs go the NPC corp always wins. but that never stopped people from flipping your cans or suicide bombimg you.
I know most wont leave the npc corp. Doesnt really matter all that much, but now they wont have an earning advantage over those that actually play the MMO part of the game.
And it cant be said enough: You wont even notice the money missing
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Liang Nuren
The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.09.21 02:26:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Flex Nebura You wont even notice the money missing
TBQHFH if ur wont notice money isksing why do u ***** about em not having advantage u know// its like lol u not notice but i ***** antwywa -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Matting
NQX Innovations HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2009.09.21 02:35:00 -
[243]
Personally I always found it weird the NPC corps did not have any tax for the protection they give. Also as others mentioned the tax is only on a small subset of what what people make money on.
Also to the paranoid players out there scared of wars... ITS NOT THAT BAD.
When you hear about a care bear corp getting wardecced its because of their size, 20+ with good ships generally OR because of something someone in that corp did to **** someone off.
I've got alts in 1-5 person corps and have never had any issue with war decs on them, They don't cause trouble and are small so no one would bother deccing them for the off chance one would even be logged in when they are hunting. Most empire war deccers want kills not boredom and as such will pick targets who are big enough to catch one unsuspectingly or who they think will try and fight.
Corps only have 3 war dec slots and using them on small would be NPC players it not worth the time or isk, time being the big one.
TL;DR
It won't make any difference for most and for mission runners it will only cut a VERY small amount of isk from your income which is well worth the protection from wars / being social.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.21 06:43:00 -
[244]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 21/09/2009 06:43:50 It is one of those moves by CCP where the (supposed) goal seem totally disjointed by the mean and the mean will not get the goal.
Possible goal: - reducing missions and ratting isk injection (it will not touch any other isk making activity);
Result: - fail, all the "professional" mission runners will start a 1 player with alt corp
Possible goal: - increase interaction between players;
Result: - fail, ilt will reduce interaction as people will move to 1 player corps;
Possible goal: - increase vulnerability to wardec;
Result: - fail, people will disband corp and create a new one, a 1 player mission running corp has no POS to siege, no activity to protect. And it is against one of CCP stated goals, the possibility for a character to avoid to be involved in wars.
If the goal is to reduce isk injection in game it would have been simpler to reduce mission/ratting isk rewards.
This way CCP instead simply punish the new players that will need to create 1 man corps when they are not ready for that.
I am curious to see what will be in the Dev blog explaining the move, but I fail to see any reasonable goal for the change.
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Lag Generator
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.09.21 07:04:00 -
[245]
That is great.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.21 07:29:00 -
[246]
Originally by: Venkul Mul It is one of those moves by CCP where the (supposed) goal seem totally disjointed by the mean and the mean will not get the goal......
I was going to write the exact same thing this morning, with exactly the same possible goals and why it wouldn't work....
Originally by: Venkul Mul This way CCP instead simply punish the new players that will need to create 1 man corps when they are not ready for that.
Not only that! That noob player will lose whatever social interaction he has in the game, and is thus much LESS likely to ever join up with other players when he is ready, simply because he doesn't have a place to meet other people....
It's somewhat the same as when learning skills were harder to do. A lot of well-meaning (but wrong) older players advised new players that they HAD to spend the first 1-2 months training the learning skills. They then started doing so but saw no progression in their play and quit. Here, the same well-meaning (but still wrong) older players will advise the new player to create a 1-man corp as soon as possible so he can earn more ISK, but not consider that it'll destroy any social interaction he'll have in the game.
CCP should define to us what the problem is they're trying to solve, and THEN we could tell them a way to do so that would actually solve it without all the negative consequences.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.09.21 08:21:00 -
[247]
Edited by: Veldya on 21/09/2009 08:23:03
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Venkul Mul It is one of those moves by CCP where the (supposed) goal seem totally disjointed by the mean and the mean will not get the goal......
I was going to write the exact same thing this morning, with exactly the same possible goals and why it wouldn't work....
Originally by: Venkul Mul This way CCP instead simply punish the new players that will need to create 1 man corps when they are not ready for that.
Not only that! That noob player will lose whatever social interaction he has in the game, and is thus much LESS likely to ever join up with other players when he is ready, simply because he doesn't have a place to meet other people....
It's somewhat the same as when learning skills were harder to do. A lot of well-meaning (but wrong) older players advised new players that they HAD to spend the first 1-2 months training the learning skills. They then started doing so but saw no progression in their play and quit. Here, the same well-meaning (but still wrong) older players will advise the new player to create a 1-man corp as soon as possible so he can earn more ISK, but not consider that it'll destroy any social interaction he'll have in the game.
CCP should define to us what the problem is they're trying to solve, and THEN we could tell them a way to do so that would actually solve it without all the negative consequences.
I don't think it has anything to do with the isk, CCP has had ample opportunity to create all sorts of money sinks but chose not to.
I think the problem is Empire corps struggle to get any meaningful membership, for good reason, as soon as they grow to a certain size they are just easy targets for degenerates who "should" be in low-sec if it wasn't a complete design failure.
When you grow an Empire corp to 40 or 50 people, establish POS, etc it is not so easy dumping them for shelf corp. It becomes more of a hassle, you have players some who may be away/inactive who effectively get cut-off.
They could hurt these people if they made it more difficult to move around, more difficult to create corps, etc but that would just be pandering to the degenerates, who are largely clueless, incompetent and cowardly.
If Empire became a free for all they would be the first to vanish, much like they vanished from conquerable space. This change excites them not because they feel it is a good change, but feel it will make it easier for them to get cheap kills. Most of them are 0.0 rejects who have been kicked out of space more times than most of us can remember.
Wardec is the gutless mechanic that needs overhaul. There needs to be greater consequence to waging war in Empire. That is not to protect the Empire denizens, but it is to make many facets of the game more meaningful.
If you wardec a corp or alliance, you should not be able to dock when there are members of the corp/alliance you decelare war on in system. People don't fear the pirates, they just don't want to play your stupid station docking games or hide whenever anything but a hauler comes looking for you.
If you declare war there should be some kind of emphasis on actually waging war. If you fail to do so your reputation with concord should decline with each failed war until Concord, as an npc organisation, realises you are as useless as the players know and ignore your desire for no-consequences hauler action.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.21 09:12:00 -
[248]
Edited by: Scatim Helicon on 21/09/2009 09:12:38
Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 21/09/2009 06:43:50 It is one of those moves by CCP where the (supposed) goal seem totally disjointed by the mean and the mean will not get the goal.
All of the 'this won't work the farmers will just make 1-man corps GOD CCP IS SO STUUUUUUPID' complaints can be easily solved if, as suggested in this thread, the cost of corp creation is raised to the point where its no longer so trivial to keep making them and jumping around at a moment's notice. I just checked in-game and the startup fee was 1599800 ISK, so throw a couple more zeros on the end of that and we're in business. Hey, maybe that's CCPs intention already, until we have the full details rather than just one snippet of information picked up from the test server its too early to say whether it will work and what the options will be.
(Did anyone check the startup fee on Sisi to see if they've been altered too?)
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.09.21 09:27:00 -
[249]
It is an utterly useless change that will antagonize people more than anything. Short sighted game design for the win! At least you didn't crank it to where people will just bugger off to the next big thing, so you obviously have common sense - just need to apply it.
Make being a player corporation matter, make them desirable to join. You are improving alliance level management, do the same for corporations. 2 minutes (literally) of brain storming yielded these for me: - Add a skill to increase LP/ISK reward by 1%/level for CEOs to train if they want. - Give corporations a discount on "public" S&I jobs. - Limited inter-office transport of goods.
If you really want players to join non-NPC corps then make it worthwhile in a meaningful way.
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Rick Rothsar
Clown Punchers. Clown Punchers Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.09.21 10:26:00 -
[250]
Originally by: Julian Lynq yes sure best change... why not make wardecs free also ? so all of you super leet people can declare war on the new 1 man corps?and raise tax to 100%. also great of ccp not having the balls to put it in change notes-no wait make it 120% so people acutally loose money and make wardecs give the deccing corp 1b isk instead of costing money.
These tears, best tears.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.21 10:51:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Make being a player corporation matter, make them desirable to join. You are improving alliance level management, do the same for corporations. 2 minutes (literally) of brain storming yielded these for me: - Add a skill to increase LP/ISK reward by 1%/level for CEOs to train if they want. - Give corporations a discount on "public" S&I jobs. - Limited inter-office transport of goods.
If you really want players to join non-NPC corps then make it worthwhile in a meaningful way.
And each of those would also be valid for a 1-man corp.... Your 1st one would just be equivalent to another learning skill.....
So... Same gain, just less social interaction....
If the aim is to make people who're in NPC corp because they don't like PvP WANT to go into player corp, it'll HAVE to include (severe!) restrictions on wardec's and war consequences. Otherwise it'll have no effect whatever... Note that I'm not advocating that, just saying that that's what it'll take!
Analyse why people don't want to be in player corp, and it'll come down to: 1. Don't want PvP 2. Don't like to have obligations in a game 3. Been scammed in player corp before 4. Had noob player corp wardec'd into nothing by uber-leet PvP'ers etc. etc. etc. Corp tax is WAY down the list (if even on it at all)!
If the NPC corp members attitude to player corp is to change, then the REASONS for that attitude needs to be adressed, not something as unimportant as a minuscule corp tax.
There's also the fact that there is usually MUCH less social interaction in player corp than in NPC corp for a casual player. There are usually 400-1000 other people to chat to, new people coming along all the time, people you've known since you started EVE etc. Unless you join a big player corp (and fat chance of them accepting you if you're a casual player), that'll not happen in a player corp.
The uber-leet PvP'ers will of.c. say GB2WOW etc., but that'd be a REALLY stupid attitude from an MMO company who's actively marketed this game not only to the uber-crowd, but also the the casual gamers who's been enticed by promises that they can do what they want to do in EVE!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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StainLessStealRat
Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.09.21 10:53:00 -
[252]
Edited by: StainLessStealRat on 21/09/2009 10:53:49
Originally by: Julian Lynq **** them off ya
cant see how it would help anyone however.
people will just stay in npc corps and have 11% less income. i think its a bad change.
Thread not going the way you hoped i see.
Welcome to EvE All those NPCers that have been in a NPC corp since day 1 will now have to play the real eve with the rest of us.
make it 20% i say is this is higher than the largest (15%) that is the highest reasonable corp tax rat IMHO.
P.S any AUS War dec corps out there PM me
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Julian Lynq
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Posted - 2009.09.21 10:59:00 -
[253]
Originally by: StainLessStealRat Edited by: StainLessStealRat on 21/09/2009 10:53:49
Originally by: Julian Lynq **** them off ya
cant see how it would help anyone however.
people will just stay in npc corps and have 11% less income. i think its a bad change.
Thread not going the way you hoped i see.
Welcome to EvE All those NPCers that have been in a NPC corp since day 1 will now have to play the real eve with the rest of us.
make it 20% i say is this is higher than the largest (15%) that is the highest reasonable corp tax rat IMHO.
P.S any AUS War dec corps out there PM me
I don¦t know where you see the thread going, but appareantly its different from my recognition. Most ppl here agree that the planned change is bad and doesn't achieve the stated goal and only make things worse.
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StainLessStealRat
Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.09.21 11:46:00 -
[254]
Edited by: StainLessStealRat on 21/09/2009 11:52:42 Must be reading a differant thread buddy.
I see all the empire corps going "Oh no 200 man corps will war dec us 15 people who have the right to not play in the sandbox with you."
WTF would we? 0.0 corps are still the best targets unless you move 10's of billoin in isk a week ? And mostly sane PvPer and non PvPers saying a sandbox is a game about interaction,a virtual society and NPC corps are the anti christ too this concept.
Most player corps are awsome i have loved all but one of the one's i have been in.You guys will start using voice coms more as a result,This is what brought Eve to a whole new level for me.wait till your new mission running corp has found its feet you will be working as a team knocking over missions like no tomorrow. Then one day one of the baraver among you will suggest a worm hole 90% of you will think its a bad idea but go along anyway. 85% of you will love it and you have progressed more than you ever would alone.
One day one of your corpsmates may throw out the enevitable "Smack" due too his now increased epeen and you will cop a war dec. Now with your new found team Work you will. a,Fight back, Work as a team but still fail(hell its PvP not an IT degree) b,Evade the attackers go to another area of eve (providance)
But the thing to learn you will benefit from this if you go with it. Also that you will be accountable for smack talk and you will find this is emersion that CCP is and should be looking for.
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Kagan Kashgar
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Posted - 2009.09.21 11:53:00 -
[255]
Still, empires need income, any and all who dabble in revenue in Empire sovereign space should be taxed.
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voxen
Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2009.09.21 11:55:00 -
[256]
Originally by: StainLessStealRat Edited by: StainLessStealRat on 21/09/2009 11:00:47 Edited by: StainLessStealRat on 21/09/2009 10:53:49
Originally by: Julian Lynq **** them off ya
cant see how it would help anyone however.
people will just stay in npc corps and have 11%less income. i think its a bad change.
Thread not going the way you hoped i see.
Welcome to EvE All those NPCers that have been in a NPC corp since day 1 will now have to play the real eve with the rest of us.
Make it 20% i say, As this is higher than the highest (15%) that is a reasonable corp tax rate IMHO.
This will bee a well needed boost to the allways over looked Empire war dec corps out there who have faces nerf after nerf in the process of making eve more noob friendly.
Good times ahead for the likes of lotto repo ect if 0.0 turns too **** after the patch at least we have a back up
what you call the 'real eve' is just your perception of the game and conflicts with the core of eve being a sandbox (i.e. you create your own destiny). Changes like these hurt the sandbox principle because it pushes players in a certain direction and therefore should be applied as little as possible imo.
(oh, and it's not that hard to avoid this tax and still be invulnerable to wardecs btw but that's not the point here)
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Julian Lynq
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Posted - 2009.09.21 12:04:00 -
[257]
Originally by: StainLessStealRat Edited by: StainLessStealRat on 21/09/2009 11:52:42 Must be reading a differant thread buddy.
I see all the empire corps going "Oh no 200 man corps will war dec us 15 people who have the right to not play in the sandbox with you."
WTF would we? 0.0 corps are still the best targets unless you move 10's of billoin in isk a week ? And mostly sane PvPer and non PvPers saying a sandbox is a game about interaction,a virtual society and NPC corps are the anti christ too this concept.
Most player corps are awsome i have loved all but one of the one's i have been in.You guys will start using voice coms more as a result,This is what brought Eve to a whole new level for me.wait till your new mission running corp has found its feet you will be working as a team knocking over missions like no tomorrow. Then one day one of the baraver among you will suggest a worm hole 90% of you will think its a bad idea but go along anyway. 85% of you will love it and you have progressed more than you ever would alone.
One day one of your corpsmates may throw out the enevitable "Smack" due too his now increased epeen and you will cop a war dec. Now with your new found team Work you will. a,Fight back, Work as a team but still fail(hell its PvP not an IT degree) b,Evade the attackers go to another area of eve (providance)
But the thing to learn you will benefit from this if you go with it. Also that you will be accountable for smack talk and you will find this is emersion that CCP is and should be looking for.
You must indeed be reading a different thread.
I see all the npc corp people try to explain to the fail pvp¦ers, how this change will not make them leave npc corps and i see the sane people arguing rightfully that the change will not have the effect ccp anticipates.
In great detail does this thread hold valueable information about the reasons people are in npc corporations and the reasons why other people are in player corporations.
The mostly in-sane fail pvp'ers however dont really manage to argue why the change would indeed work in their oppinion. Instead all they do is bump it with certainly uninformed and meaningless sentences like "love it, make it 50% instead".
In my oppinion we see 3 groups of people here that are infavour of the change:
group 1: Unhappy people from player corps that wan¦t "revenge", because other people manage to enjoy the game where they don¦t.
group 2: fail pvp¦ers that really think after this change the carebaers will just sit in space in their faction ships waiting to be killed by them.
group 3: general trolls
As mentioned above the people against the change have in great detail outlined why it will not work as anticipated. So then i dare you: bring it. Tell us why you believe the change will work besides theese arguments.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.21 12:05:00 -
[258]
Edited by: Kerfira on 21/09/2009 12:05:43
Originally by: StainLessStealRat Post #254
Unfortunately, the game you're talking about is not the game CCP has been selling EVE as!
EVE has DELIBERATELY by CCP been sold as a game where "You can do what you want!", which includes not doing what you don't want!
As a result, that is what a large part of the player base is buying! The players who play maybe a couple of hours every week when they're bored will NOT be invited into player corp. The player who just likes to mission will NOT be either, etc. etc.
All these players will just see one thing, that EVE isn't what was promised them, and that they're being punished for not wanting to play EVE in the 'right' way!
You approach the case from the point of the dedicated and frequent EVE player, but completely disregard that a large number of players (and thus subscriptions) are not like that!
If player corp are unattractive to NPC corp members, instead of just applying an easily avoided thing like a corp tax, CCP should analyse WHY players don't like player corp, and then do something about THOSE reasons. As has been said, it is a 'lazy' solution that is actually not a solution at all.... That people are in NPC corp is a symptom, not the cause. Trying to make the symptom go away will not lessen the illness...
Note that I'm not one of the above type of players, but that doesn't mean I can't see their point of view. I can also see that the income from that large player group contributes a lot to CCP's income, and thus help make the EVE game I like even better!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Serge Bastana
Gallente GWA Corp
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Posted - 2009.09.21 12:06:00 -
[259]
Originally by: voxen
(oh, and it's not that hard to avoid this tax and still be invulnerable to wardecs btw but that's not the point here)
Well in a way it is the point, if ppl are confident that they can evade both the tax and wardecs why don't they just get on and do it and let everybody else do what they want.
Now if you're standing up for others in your NPC corp, why not team up with them and create a corp. If you don't care about them, just take care of yourself and leave them to it.
I can understand it's a bit of a shock for some ppl in NPC corps but that's partially due to the fact that they believe that every isk they earn will be taxed as they have never learned about how copr taxes work.
I've only just passed my firt 6 months in the game, but having taken that step into a player corp within my first few weeks into the game I have learned quite a lot from those more experienced than myself and from my own experiences while being a member of a player corp.
Loadsa fun. I admit not all corps are to your taste, that happens, but we decided to set yout and form our own for some freedom and give us a chance to figure out more things in EVE and let us work out what we really wanted to do, so for now we're just messing around, having some fun and seeing what happens.
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StainLessStealRat
Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.09.21 12:10:00 -
[260]
Edited by: StainLessStealRat on 21/09/2009 12:16:33 Edited by: StainLessStealRat on 21/09/2009 12:12:54
Originally by: voxen
Originally by: StainLessStealRat Edited by: StainLessStealRat on 21/09/2009 11:00:47 Edited by: StainLessStealRat on 21/09/2009 10:53:49
Originally by: Julian Lynq **** them off ya
cant see how it would help anyone however.
people will just stay in npc corps and have 11%less income. i think its a bad change.
Thread not going the way you hoped i see.
Welcome to EvE All those NPCers that have been in a NPC corp since day 1 will now have to play the real eve with the rest of us.
Make it 20% i say, As this is higher than the highest (15%) that is a reasonable corp tax rate IMHO.
This will bee a well needed boost to the allways over looked Empire war dec corps out there who have faces nerf after nerf in the process of making eve more noob friendly.
Good times ahead for the likes of lotto repo ect if 0.0 turns too **** after the patch at least we have a back up
what you call the 'real eve' is just your perception of the game and conflicts with the core of eve being a sandbox (i.e. you create your own destiny). Changes like these hurt the sandbox principle because it pushes players in a certain direction and therefore should be applied as little as possible imo.
(oh, and it's not that hard to avoid this tax and still be invulnerable to wardecs btw but that's not the point here)
NPC corps ruin Eve as a true sandbox for me as i want to interact with other players ie,shoot them. NPC corps risrict me from this not allowing me to fufill my self imposed destiny to rid all bad smack talkers from eve leaving me at the coverted worst smacker in eve position.
Sure NPC corp give people who dont want too interact with me the feeling of a true sand box,By denying it too me!
so on one hand, Me who wants too interact and the smack talking NPC corp member on the other. some one who doesnt want to even be in the same chat chanell with strangers. let alone be acountable for outburst in local. Too you what sounds more sandboxy?
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Vixisti
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.09.21 12:13:00 -
[261]
I think it's a good change. 11% is a small price to pay for invunerability to war decs tbh.
I do think that there should be a time limit on setting up corps though, otherwise one man corps which constantly close and open will be the order of the day. Perhaps one corp a week limit would discourage people from this likely constant corp hopping to avoid war decs. Of course people can still avoid wd's by going back to their npc corp but they might just be encouraged to join a bigger player corp and all the great experiences that come with that.
People will still have a choice or what they want to do - it's not like CCP is closing npc corps!
The sandbox is alive and well but the sand just got a bit thicker.
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PostWithYourAlt
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Posted - 2009.09.21 12:18:00 -
[262]
Originally by: StainLessStealRat
Bohoohooo, I am soo frustrated of loosing all the fight in my failure alliance. Please CCP make it so I can shoot defensless Carebears that do not have PVP Skills so I can get an errection.
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StainLessStealRat
Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.09.21 12:23:00 -
[263]
I do fine.
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Cameron Vayle
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.09.21 12:33:00 -
[264]
Nothing wrong with a tax on NPC corps. Nothing wrong with limiting what ships you can fly when in NPC corps.
What I would like to see though is this:
You can join ANY NPC corp in the game that is from the empire or the like, not the pirate ones though that might be interesting. Now lets say that you are a miner and that is all you want to do. You are able to join ORE and after you have been there a while you can fly your hulk unlike if you joined another MPC corp that was not mining based. This would be true for all ship types. Limit what you can fly unless that corp would use them for a true purpose.
Now while we are at it how about we say that those that do research and the like get a bonus for being in the true R&D NPC corps?
There is just so much you could do with this it is awsome. Question is...will they even think of doing it?
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EveFairy0
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Posted - 2009.09.21 12:40:00 -
[265]
While you still have time until patch, make it possible to form a private enterprise so you don't have all those one man corps popping up and cluttering stations (HQ/office) and your database.
Private enterprise: - war decable - 0% tax: the isk comes and goes from your personal wallet - No HQ/offices, can't recruit other players
Guess that's too much to ask and we'll see all the 'gsa948hg49s8gh' corporations soon after patch, but hey, what ever rocks your socks!
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Flex Nebura
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.21 12:49:00 -
[266]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Flex Nebura You wont even notice the money missing
TBQHFH if ur wont notice money isksing why do u ***** about em not having advantage u know// its like lol u not notice but i ***** antwywa
hmm.. you clearly arent in an npc corp, so I dont get why you seem so upset. But perhaps you you just wanted to jump at a mistake you thought I made.
Anyways no I wouldnt notice if the money I was losing to taxes. But currently I do notice the gazzillions of extra isk ingame having an influence on the market. Its a few million here and there, that make every single thing more expensive.
Im not personally feeling oppressed by taxes, nor would I appreciate making 3% extra on mission running. I just wouldnt notice if I wasnt paying taxes either.
Well I probably would when my corp was unable to do anythin. And when My corp couldnt pay its members for certain services rendered.
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Tagami Wasp
Caldari Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.09.21 13:58:00 -
[267]
Good move, although 11% is a bit low. In my corp, we voted to set corp tax a 20%, because we are PvP focused and we don't measure our e-peen by comparing isk volume in wallets or rare ships in the hangar. The corp doesn't even provide ship replacement programs and we don't care.
Grow some and join the rest of us in the adrenaline rush .
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voxen
Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2009.09.21 14:10:00 -
[268]
Edited by: voxen on 21/09/2009 14:13:12
Originally by: StainLessStealRat
Originally by: voxen
Originally by: StainLessStealRat Edited by: StainLessStealRat on 21/09/2009 11:00:47 Edited by: StainLessStealRat on 21/09/2009 10:53:49
Originally by: Julian Lynq **** them off ya
cant see how it would help anyone however.
people will just stay in npc corps and have 11%less income. i think its a bad change.
Thread not going the way you hoped i see.
Welcome to EvE All those NPCers that have been in a NPC corp since day 1 will now have to play the real eve with the rest of us.
Make it 20% i say, As this is higher than the highest (15%) that is a reasonable corp tax rate IMHO.
This will bee a well needed boost to the allways over looked Empire war dec corps out there who have faces nerf after nerf in the process of making eve more noob friendly.
Good times ahead for the likes of lotto repo ect if 0.0 turns too **** after the patch at least we have a back up
what you call the 'real eve' is just your perception of the game and conflicts with the core of eve being a sandbox (i.e. you create your own destiny). Changes like these hurt the sandbox principle because it pushes players in a certain direction and therefore should be applied as little as possible imo.
(oh, and it's not that hard to avoid this tax and still be invulnerable to wardecs btw but that's not the point here)
NPC corps ruin Eve as a true sandbox for me,I want to interact with other players ie,shoot them. NPC corps risrict me from this not allowing me to fufill my self imposed destiny to rid all bad smack talkers from eve leaving me at the coverted worst smacker in eve position.
Sure NPC corp give people who dont want too interact with me a feeling of a true sand box,By denying it too me!
So on one hand we have,Me who wants too interact with others and the smack talking NPC corp member on the other. some one who doesnt want to even get corp mail from strangers. let alone be acountable for outbursts in local.
Too you what sounds more sandboxy?
My only wish they would put it on contracts so i can kill that dude that sold be the 1 bill Gyro from
so basically you simply hold a grudge and just want revenge on that dreaded carebear?
I'm not against the 11% tax, hell it should've been there from the start. The only point I was trying to make is that a:) mandatory changes in a sandbox principle go against the principle of the sandbox itself (don't change a running sandbox at least) b:) players always either approve or reject changes because it hinders or helps their playing style. In other words; there's no good or wrong.
/me goes back to suiciding carebear haulers in empire.
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Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.09.21 14:48:00 -
[269]
The whole income tax is crappy and lazy solution to corp income in the first place and this change does not help it at all. You want corps to have income, pay extra bounties for rats exterminated in their space or just let them sort it out themselves, getting income from player wrecks and mining ops. Why do you have to pay corp tax when you take a day off from corp duties and do some NPCing (L4s being just one of venues) or worse why do you have to have alt to do something so basic.
None is going to lose much by the NPC tax. It will just make people mildly annoyed like any tax does, will get more nubs into scam corps, will get some killed in hopeless wardecs and will annoy people that just like being anonymous lone wolves yet having informal interaction in NPC corps.
Also, people will eventually figure out how to evade taxes, it just forces you to metagame, instead of shooting stuff or making stuff you end up reading some shoddy legalese that ends up badly implemented half of time.
NPC tax makes sense, is nothing gruesome but in the end is addition that makes the game poorer in large part because it spreads crap.
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skye orionis
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Posted - 2009.09.21 17:12:00 -
[270]
Originally by: voxen
a:) mandatory changes in a sandbox principle go against the principle of the sandbox itself (don't change a running sandbox at least)
So I guess you object to all that fancy rules changing T2 gear?
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Jonathan Ferguson
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Posted - 2009.09.21 17:51:00 -
[271]
EVE is becoming WoW. The old-timers, not content with their t2 bpo's, their r64 moons, and their uber character-based combat skills, are now EZ-mode-pleading with EVE devs to grief noob corps. And the EVE devs are complying.
Just like they complied when the old-timers pleaded for a remap option, because they had run out of skills to train on their Per/Wil toon.
Leave my sandbox alone.
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari The Confederate Navy Forever Unbound
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Posted - 2009.09.21 17:59:00 -
[272]
Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson EVE is becoming WoW. The old-timers, not content with their t2 bpo's, their r64 moons, and their uber character-based combat skills, are now EZ-mode-pleading with EVE devs to grief noob corps. And the EVE devs are complying.
Just like they complied when the old-timers pleaded for a remap option, because they had run out of skills to train on their Per/Wil toon.
Leave my sandbox alone.
The cluelessness of this post hurts my head. ----- Why doesn't anyone ever read the forums before posting? EVE is a game of adaptation and planning. Adapt or die. |
Julian Lynq
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Posted - 2009.09.21 18:02:00 -
[273]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson EVE is becoming WoW. The old-timers, not content with their t2 bpo's, their r64 moons, and their uber character-based combat skills, are now EZ-mode-pleading with EVE devs to grief noob corps. And the EVE devs are complying.
Just like they complied when the old-timers pleaded for a remap option, because they had run out of skills to train on their Per/Wil toon.
Leave my sandbox alone.
The cluelessness of this post hurts my head.
Some people argue with arguments.
Other people argue with meaningless insults.
(You are in the Other group)
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Aethrwolf
Caldari Home for Wayward Gamers
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Posted - 2009.09.21 18:44:00 -
[274]
I'm undecided as to how this will affect EVE, but I do have an opinion about some of the "reasons" stated for ppl who stay in NPC corps.
:et me start out by saying that yes, I did spend some time in one during a forced break from EVE (couldn't get internet for a while while I was unemployed) I also stayed in one for a while after I started playing again because I didn't have a RELIABLE connection and felt it unfair to a player corp to join them when I would only be playing intermittently. So, yes there ARE reasons to stay in an NPC corp, but most of what I've seen are not much more than excuses, IMHO.
1. You got scammed by a corp member/ceo... well scams can happen anywhere in EVE. 2. You got blown up by a corpmate.. you can still get blown up, its just not as safe for them. 3. Greedy CEO... it happens.. find a better ceo. Better yet, find a corp that will wardec the one who took advantage of you. I don't actively recruit, but I've spent more on helping newer players in AND out of my corp than my current (10%) corp tax will likely ever net me, since I don't try to make ppl stay if they want to try something else. 4. "but I want to help new players" From experience, the ones who are willing to look for help will find it. Make yourself available by putting a line in your bio or something. Just answering questions in local helps a lot. Get the ones who are smart enough to look for help into your corp or point them to a corp that fits what they want to do.. its a LOT easier to help someone when you dont have to compete against spam and/or smacktalk in the channel you're talking to them in. 5. War decs.. a SEMI-legit reason, but suicide ganking still happens folks. 6. sandbox arguments... well, tbh.. get IN the stupid sandbox you chicken! Don't just sit on the edge and dig your toes in the sand.. GET DIRTY! and for most of those arguments.. here is a correlation: By hiding in an NPC corp to avoid actions of any other players that have or might affect you, the other player has won. you have LET them win. Absolutely everything is subjective. |
Mikayla Grey
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.21 19:06:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson EVE is becoming WoW. The old-timers, not content with their t2 bpo's, their r64 moons, and their uber character-based combat skills, are now EZ-mode-pleading with EVE devs to grief noob corps. And the EVE devs are complying.
Just like they complied when the old-timers pleaded for a remap option, because they had run out of skills to train on their Per/Wil toon.
Leave my sandbox alone.
The cluelessness of this post hurts my head.
Some people argue with arguments.
Other people argue with meaningless insults.
(You are in the Other group)
He responded to a post with similar content.
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Wyliee
Taurus Inc
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Posted - 2009.09.21 20:38:00 -
[276]
ha! someone made this topic as an experiment to see just how many noob carebears would whine about it.
u11% tax to stay safe in npc corp.
suck it up.
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brutman
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Posted - 2009.09.21 23:44:00 -
[277]
This is a perfect example oh how many stupid people play this game and how CCP doesn't get it. Your tax only targets a certain percentage of the NPC's players and thats mission runners. Not only are they less inclined to stay in an NPC game they are less inclined to stay in EVE all together. Most smart businesses learn the carrot and the stick routine early in life. Your lack of competition in this game genre is about to change. You had better think more clearly about changes you make. You want to make PVP more attractive? do something about better insurance. Especially for T2 stuff. Not saying 100% but 10% is just stupid. The only people getting rich were the dysporium and promethium owning alliances. Thank you for at least doing something to change that but I have my doubts in the long term it will. Rich players have a way of staying rich.
To the stupid people who complain about carebears complaining. you know whats gonna happen? that 11% tax is gonna eventually find its way into the system and you'll be the ones pays more for ships and stuff. And you'll have to run more missions to buy the stuff. And it may not make a player quit but every negative aspect of this game gives them one more reason to find some other way to spend there real cash. And that hurts everyone.
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SomebodyKickedMyDog
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Posted - 2009.09.22 00:23:00 -
[278]
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia ... It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation ...
why? if people don't want to join a player corp, why push them to join one? a lot of player corps are less social than the npc corps.
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Cambarus
Clearly Compensating
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Posted - 2009.09.22 00:42:00 -
[279]
Originally by: SomebodyKickedMyDog
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia ... It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation ...
why? if people don't want to join a player corp, why push them to join one? a lot of player corps are less social than the npc corps.
This mentality bothers me. There's nothing wrong with a SLIGHT push to get people into player corps. It's nothing huge, a mere 1% above what most player corps have, and they are in no way forcing you to leave your little NPC bubble. All they're doing is making it slightly more viable to join player corps from an isk/hour point of view.
The game is centered around player interaction, why then should people be REWARDED for being in an NPC corp? This change isn't penalizing people for staying in NPC corps, it's just removing the advantage that they had in isk making capabilities. |
Daemonspirit
An Android Lust
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Posted - 2009.09.22 00:57:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: SomebodyKickedMyDog
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia ... It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation ...
why? if people don't want to join a player corp, why push them to join one? a lot of player corps are less social than the npc corps.
This mentality bothers me. There's nothing wrong with a SLIGHT push to get people into player corps. It's nothing huge, a mere 1% above what most player corps have, and they are in no way forcing you to leave your little NPC bubble. All they're doing is making it slightly more viable to join player corps from an isk/hour point of view.
The game is centered around player interaction, why then should people be REWARDED for being in an NPC corp? This change isn't penalizing people for staying in NPC corps, it's just removing the advantage that they had in isk making capabilities.
It does nothing of the kind... since the tax is only imposed on Bounties, Rewards and Mission Time Bonus rewards, that comes to about 27% of all mission rewards. Thusly the 11% NPC corp tax equals about 3.41% tax on mission rewards.
All MMORPGS are centered around player interactions. There is only one interaction that is verbotten to NPC players, and that is being wardec'd. This tax will do nothing - I repeat - NOTHING to make NPC corp players more likely to join player corps.
#1 - too many of them are already alts of players, whether scouts, 0.0 money makers, 0.0 Logistics people whatever... I'm almost willing to bet that there are MORE alts in NPC corps than there are real people!
So - this change will not effect income significantly,
- this change will not effect Alt player activity,
- this change will *maybe* result in a whole slew of one-man corps created by the mathematically challenged to avoid the tax (which brings us to...)
- These one man corps are effectively immune to war-decs because there are already TONs of small corps that keep their mouths shut, and never get war-dec'd...
total net effect of this change?
A lot of forum frothing... But nothing that will change game play...
ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö |
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xylopia
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Posted - 2009.09.22 01:13:00 -
[281]
Personally, this is horrible change. Just a glimpse of thought CAS is taking my hard-earned iskies in greed makes me vomit. But then, if this a step to much higher path, I'd take that w/ my arms wide open.
What higher path I'm mumbling about? I'm suspecting CCP might want to open up a stock market including NPCs. Just like the way NPC goods exist, NPC stocks will be there for taking and manipulating.
It might sounds absurd but, anyone think of the same? nothing to say at this moment. |
SomebodyKickedMyDog
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Posted - 2009.09.22 01:35:00 -
[282]
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: SomebodyKickedMyDog
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia ... It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation ...
why? if people don't want to join a player corp, why push them to join one? a lot of player corps are less social than the npc corps.
... The game is centered around player interaction ...
well, that was my point. so many player run corps are dead. some of the npc corps are a lot more interactive and social than many player corps are.
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HeliosGal
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Posted - 2009.09.22 01:52:00 -
[283]
i think its still a smart move even if it is a a isk sink. It will indirectly nerf npc corp missin runners ( and on calcualtions seems to be more a anti macro move than anything else)
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Serge Bastana
Gallente GWA Corp
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Posted - 2009.09.22 02:01:00 -
[284]
Like I said in another thread on this exact same subject, CCP could have placed much stricter restrictions on players in NPC corps, instead they chose to use a mechanic which mirrors those used in players corps around New Eden.
Everybody has advantages and disadvantages in this game due to the choices they make.
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.09.22 02:26:00 -
[285]
Originally by: StainLessStealRat
NPC corps ruin Eve as a true sandbox for me,I want to interact with other players ie,shoot them.
You can shoot them, there are just consequences for shooting them.
What you want is to be free from the consequences of your actions, EVE as a PvP oriented game heavily favours the aggressor.
You wardec a corp, they might be miners, or mission runners, or traders. They can't play the game in PvP ships, in PvP fits, mostly likely don't have the PvP skills.
The game isn't designed to have a level playing field. Mining ships should be massively durable ships that can fight off aggressors, all professions should require a mix of combat and other abilities but the game doesn't function like that. You want a game that doesn't exist at present so instead you want to be able to waltz through and club defenseless players.
There is no skill element involved in it. There are no consequences for the PvP pilot in this scenario. You can fight when YOU choose to but can dock and hide when the odds do not favor you. People who PvE in Empire have to spend a lot of time out in the open on their own because it is the nature of the game.
Nobody is paying $15 a month to be your *****.
Quote:
NPC corps risrict me from this not allowing me to fufill my self imposed destiny to rid all bad smack talkers from eve leaving me at the coverted worst smacker in eve position.
You are incorrect, NPC corps do not protect them, Concord doesn't protect them. If you wanted anyone in game dead, you can kill them. There are just consequences for your actions in Empire space.
Quote:
Sure NPC corp give people who dont want too interact with me a feeling of a true sand box,By denying it too me!
It has nothing to do with safety, it has to do with there being no reason to be in small empire corps when there is no content in empire that needs coorporation.
Quote:
So on one hand we have,Me who wants too interact with others and the smack talking NPC corp member on the other. some one who doesnt want to even get corp mail from strangers. let alone be acountable for outbursts in local.
If they ****ed off NPC corps all together and there were a few massive Empire alliances with tens of thousands of members and they wardecced all the pirate corps we know who would be hiding in stations or in low-sec, it wouldn't be the carebears.
You say you want the sandbox but you don't, Empire would just be another 0.0 nightmare for you on a cosmic level where you get kicked out by the superior force of numbers. If you can't hack it in conquerable space, you wouldn't hack it in a true sandbox in Empire. There are some 300,000 people living in Empire, if they formed massive alliances and an Empire coalition it would be the greatest single force in EVE.
Quote:
Too you what sounds more sandboxy?
Carebears would welcome a true sandbox, they do not want THIS change.
Quote:
My only wish they would put it on contracts so i can kill that dude that sold be the 1 bill Gyro from
My wish is that Pirates couldn't run and hide when they wardec. I don't think either of us are going to get our wish.
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Jarod Leercap
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Posted - 2009.09.22 02:35:00 -
[286]
Quite frankly, the proposed mechanic won't affect me much. The only reason for my alts to run missions is to run up standings to collect data cores. As it happens, I've been remiss about doing that.
That said, the change rankles. It's not the amount of money, it's the principle. I hate being penalized--even by a small amount--because there's not yet a mechanic that makes player corps attractive to a more casual player like myself.
A big part of my annoyance is the fact that I'm primarily a manufacturing player, and while I enjoy it I think it's rather broken. I'd rather compare the current situation to having no ship classes between frigates and battleships.
When you first start out, the NPC facilities are good enough. You're making paltry money, but if you like it, you can do other things to increase the upward climb. The problem is that the ladder's missing several runs. When you start needing to do research on a regular basis and find yourself waiting through month-long queues or making many jumps into low-sec (or both) just to keep things running. More slots look good at first, but you can have ten at most, and if this weren't the case facilities would be even more swamped than they are.
Traditionally, the answer to this has been, "Join a corp! Start a POS!" However, this opens new cans of worms. First and foremost, the POS comes with a substantial fixed (but for market fluctuation) expense: the fuel bill. That expense is neither small or easily recovered. While my revenue would cover it, it would still wind up costing more than it would help me earn.
But that doesn't even cover it. The industry skill set is either high risk or fairly unportable. The "high risk" is that if I build my own library of prints that I can take with me to another corp, I have to put them in the corp hangar and subject them to the risk of somebody else making a dumb security decision to take advantage of the corporation facilities. In contrast, strictly combat pilots don't have to keep their ships corporate facilities. (Yes, they do in null sec, but the same is true of a manufacturer and his prints in that case.) Yes, I understand that I only need to put the prints used in active jobs in the corp hangar. It's still a risk I find unappealing.
If you look at this situation and decide that you won't keep your own library of prints, then you are limiting yourself to the corporate library. In most cases, this will be more expansive than your own, but that can constrain you with respect to jumping to other corps--especially smaller corps--later.
Frankly, my main is at a point where his income would cover the fuel bill on a POS. That's a pretty sorry test. Frankly, it'd still add more cost than revenue, so the only reason to do so would be convenience. While I understand that there are always going to be increments to fixed cost (and should be--it's what makes them interesting), I still think the first increment is too high. If you fix that, there'd be a lot more reason to get out into player-owned corps (though I, too, would miss one of the NPC channels). If you then wanted to apply the stick, it'd make sense to add costs and constraints to the NPC facilities to bring them in line (or a little above) the PC ones.
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Kimi
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.22 05:11:00 -
[287]
Not sure if CCP and a lot of players are missing the real problems or are in denial.
The tax will have very little effect either way. The problem is not that you need a bigger stick, but a bigger carrot. There simply are not many advantages in most cases to joining a player corp. Nor is it really viable for solo or a small corp to leave high sec.
I (with various alts) have been in a couple dozen small player corps. Every single one of them broke up, some in days, some in months - but they all disappeared.
Once beyond the initial discovery phase, people more and more tend to log in only to check skill training. I have been in corps with over 200 people where less than 5 people were on during prime time.
About 1/3 of the corps I was in broke up primarily because they got wardecced by some corp with 5x as many members and 10x better equipment.
There are private corps where I can join up temporarily to get a jump clone. There are corps where I can rent manufacturing and research slots. There is basically no good reason for me to start or join a corp, and some tax is not going to change that. If the tax gets too high such as the 30% that some here want, I will not join a player corp, I will simply quit. The Cariest of CareBears |
Dr Leyah
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Posted - 2009.09.22 07:31:00 -
[288]
I want to start by saying that I don't have any strong opinion on this subject. If anything I slightly support the tax for it's realism in "paying" Concord for protection.
However, I've read through several of the posts and have a question. There seems to be a lot of people suggesting that noob corp, high-sec mission runners are bad for eve. Why is that? Are they hurting anyone?
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Seeker Ash
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.09.22 07:56:00 -
[289]
Since this tax - very affordable, by the way - seems to make so many people so enormously relieved, judging by the amount of "It's about time" posts in this thread, and suggestions to further force people to play the game a certain way, I have a question to anyone who's interested:
Say there's a lot of noobs, carebears and other derogatory words hiding in high sec, playing it safe and staying out of your way. How does this affect you? _________________ "Even space ships pilots get the blues." |
Y3R M4W
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Posted - 2009.09.22 11:32:00 -
[290]
Imo a better solution would be to remove 'habitable' NPC corps (except FW corps) as it was in the days of yore. This gives a more appropriate incentive to join a player corporation (i.e. for social and 'economies of scale' benefits).
Note: YER MAW! is Scottish for Your Mother. |
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.22 12:13:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Daemonspirit
It does nothing of the kind... since the tax is only imposed on Bounties, Rewards and Mission Time Bonus rewards, that comes to about 27% of all mission rewards. Thusly the 11% NPC corp tax equals about 3.41% tax on mission rewards.
And a 10% player corp tax is only 2,7% of of the whole mission rewards and probably even less of the ratting rewards if you bother picking up the loot, but still corp and alliance members cry about it.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.22 12:41:00 -
[292]
Originally by: Cambarus This mentality bothers me. There's nothing wrong with a SLIGHT push to get people into player corps. It's nothing huge, a mere 1% above what most player corps have, and they are in no way forcing you to leave your little NPC bubble. All they're doing is making it slightly more viable to join player corps from an isk/hour point of view.
The game is centered around player interaction, why then should people be REWARDED for being in an NPC corp? This change isn't penalizing people for staying in NPC corps, it's just removing the advantage that they had in isk making capabilities.
The main problem is that this change will push a lot of players into the WRONG type of player corp, ie. their own little 1-man world....
Lets be generous and say that 1 out of 10 players leaving an NPC corp because of this will go into a 'proper' player corp, and the 9 others will go to 1-man corp (personally I think it'll more likely be a 1/99 split)....
That means: 1 person (may) get better social interaction in the game. 9 persons will leave what social interaction they have and will now play a single-player game in an MMO.
I'm as such not opposed to NPC corp taxes (in the right context), but this is just an utterly stupid and lazy way of doing a random change without considering what the effects of that change will be....
It strongly indicates that CCP doesn't know which types of players are in the NPC corp, nor that there is a large amount of social interaction going on there. That social interaction is what causes people to actually form players corp WHEN THEY ARE READY, which is unlikely to happen if they've shuffled off to a 1-man corp early. Most likely they'll be far more inclined to think EVE a boring place, simply because that interaction will be missing.
If you think new players won't go to 1-man corp, you'll be wrong. There'll be older players in the NPC corp who'll advise them that once they reach L2 missions they should switch to a 1-man corp because they'll earn more money. It's comparable to what happened when the learning skills were long, and people advised newbies to train learning skills for 1 first 1-2 months...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.09.22 13:17:00 -
[293]
Originally by: Seeker Ash
Say there's a lot of noobs, carebears and other derogatory words hiding in high sec, playing it safe and staying out of your way. How does this affect you?
I am against the tax largely because I don't think this helps to address the problem, it is just a mindless money sink and if this one is being introduced then there should be heaps of "realistic" isk sinks all over the place.
But, the presence of people in Empire does affect those they don't interact with.
Most mission runners are basically clueless and lazy. They will dump whatever **** they loot wherever they are mission running whatever the buy orders are going at. They wont move the **** 5 jumps to where the price may be 10x higher.
You might say, power to the exploiter, but no. If you are selling items which get re-processed below mineral cost, you drive down the value of the minerals. To the point you are hurting T1 production down to a level where it is usually not profitable to make a real living out of T1 production, which is a real problem for people who are new and are trying to make a career in manufacturing but compete against moronic mission runners who do not understand that items are not free just because you don't pay for them, the time investment is in part the payment.
Then there is all the money they make running missions, mission runners tend to be a major market for more expensive modules and is largely responsible for the insane inflation, that and people who buy currency, legally or illegally.
Plexes and the like only drop so many modules, their supply is fairly static, their price continues to inflate out of ocntrol because of the demand for them and the lack of supply.
Everything you do or don't do has an impact on other people, even people you have never met or interacted with.
While this change wont achieve what they want to achieve, your argument that you don't impact others is also false.
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Captain Mastiff
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Posted - 2009.09.22 13:27:00 -
[294]
I think this is a remarkably silly change.
The majority of people saying its a great change are people in player corps. The players complaining are in npc corps.
I have spent about equal time in both, I prefer an npc corp due to the simplicity of not having to be involved with anything corp related. I can g away from the game for a month whilst some training is being done and I tank through RL. I can easily make some ISK for myself however it is not the substantial amount that I make in the corp.
I don't see the point of pretty much forcing people to join a player corp for the fact they will lose 11%. I assume they will be putting a restriction on 1 man corps. Its a lose lose situation and the wrong way to go about it, Bring on the thousands of solo corps that will be created. Continuously war decc'd by ********s who want to grief these people. CCP You've done it again!
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Seeker Ash
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.09.22 13:39:00 -
[295]
Edited by: Seeker Ash on 22/09/2009 13:45:48 Edited by: Seeker Ash on 22/09/2009 13:43:44
Originally by: Veldya While this change wont achieve what they want to achieve, your argument that you don't impact others is also false.
I'm not arguing anything yet, I'm asking "How does this affect you?" Does it hurt? More than having your ship blown up by a superior player? Is it unfair? I'm trying to figure out why so many people are so eagerly trying to force a change of the game to control how other people play. It's reminiscent of rookie complaints about pirates. _________________ "Even space ships pilots get the blues." |
Captain Mastiff
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Posted - 2009.09.22 13:56:00 -
[296]
Hey
Also I'd like to make a note about the fact if NPC corp members have to pay 11% tax for "the upkeep of concord" why don't player owned corps play this tax as well... Interesting, to make it fair if this "11%" was to go all to concord then the player owned corps will need to pay "11%" as well to concord.
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Jones Bones
Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity
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Posted - 2009.09.22 14:32:00 -
[297]
Originally by: Veldya
You say you want the sandbox but you don't, Empire would just be another 0.0 nightmare for you on a cosmic level where you get kicked out by the superior force of numbers. If you can't hack it in conquerable space, you wouldn't hack it in a true sandbox in Empire. There are some 300,000 people living in Empire, if they formed massive alliances and an Empire coalition it would be the greatest single force in EVE.
LOL
=================== Go Bucks! |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.22 14:46:00 -
[298]
Originally by: Captain Mastiff Hey
Also I'd like to make a note about the fact if NPC corp members have to pay 11% tax for "the upkeep of concord" why don't player owned corps play this tax as well... Interesting, to make it fair if this "11%" was to go all to concord then the player owned corps will need to pay "11%" as well to concord.
If it is for "the upkeep of Concord" it should be 11% of all the isk produced in Empire by ratting and mission running, NPC corp or not.
Or, even more realistic and valid from a RP point of view, a flat 10% tax on all the purchases made in Empire.
But the RP point of view is only a hand of paint trying to give a more acceptable face to a bad move.
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Count Helmchen
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Posted - 2009.09.22 15:13:00 -
[299]
MOAR TAXES CCP! MOAR!!!
should be 25% if you are in a NPC corp , raising each week by another 1% up to 75% ... corp-jumping should result into perma 75% tax
gogogo, kill carebears!!!!! HAHA
PS: cloaky 0.0 raven should pay 89% taxes!
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Blastil
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Posted - 2009.09.22 15:13:00 -
[300]
good god yall...
this isn't the end of the world. 11% off of 10 million ISK is 1.1 million. that's not a real big deal. I make a million ISK in my sleep.
Firstly, to you NPC bears. A corp tax isn't that bad. This isn't going to force you to leave your NPC corp by any means. CCP has not decreed you must leave or be destroyed. tbh, this was a balance long in coming. corp taxes are isk sinks (player corps spend their tax ISK on ships and POSes), and are needed to remove excess ISK from the system. This may have more to do with combating ISK inflation than with moving players out of NPC corps. Being in an NPC corp was literally 'summoning' ISK into the game, and that needed to be checked a little bit.
Secondly, to all you PVPers. This isn't going to force people out of NPC corps. Much. It might make recruitment easier, but Don't expect people to leave and start their own corps. It costs ISK to start a corp, and renew one. For one guy, it might not be worth it.
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Daemonspirit
An Android Lust
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Posted - 2009.09.22 15:38:00 -
[301]
Originally by: Dr Leyah There seems to be a lot of people suggesting that noob corp, high-sec mission runners are bad for eve. Why is that? Are they hurting anyone?
Originally by: Seeker Ash Say there's a lot of noobs, carebears and other derogatory words hiding in high sec, playing it safe and staying out of your way. How does this affect you?
All the Isk, mods, minerals brought in, go into the overall economy. There is some thought out there (and I can't be arsed to find the Dev-Blog that showed the breakdown of how much minerals on the market came from melted Mods) that missionrunners actually lower the value of minerals for miners. They actually cause a decrease in minerals that miners go for, because of the alternative (un-interruptable) supply.
And its not just "joe n00b" in NPC corps that have gotten people against the NPC corps.
Its the Remote Repairer in the NPC corp, influencing how battles turn out, with not one shred of danger up to the moment he/she activates mods.
Its the NPC alt corp scouts.
Its the Hi-Sec missioning alts of 0.0 powerblocks who can farm isk in safety, thereby preventing their enemies the ability to end a fight via economic denial.
Its the Hi-Sec Logistics alts of 0.0 powerblocks who can transfer mods/ships/POS fuel etc., etc., in complete safety, thereby denying their enemy the chance to end the war via blockade.
Its the Hi-Sec Traders/Haulers/Industrialists/Inventors who have MUCH less risk performing any of their jobs than anyone else in game (i.e. getting goods to market). The perception there is that their costs are less, and can therefore make more on their jobs than Player Corp players.
A lot of the disgust with NPC corps has nothing to do with Mission Runners per se... But, Hi-sec, lvl 4 mission runners are the current lightning rod de jure...
Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 22/09/2009 12:22:11So the change is a failure from the start, irritating people and impoverishing the game while maybe moving 1-2% of the mission runners currently being part of the NPC corps to actual multiplayer corps (and none of the traders, industrialist, cyno alts, etc etc).
Ummmm That was basically my point? I was saying it wasn't going to be effective, or reach any of the goals CCP Eris or others who support it have stated.
ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö |
Prof Pain
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Posted - 2009.09.22 16:49:00 -
[302]
Originally by: Adam Ridgway The whiners in this thread are pathetic and just show how they should be taxed much more and probably nerfed in many ways (mostlly skill caps for every part of the game).
They have no idea how much INMUNITY does affect this game, they think it's all about them and their 'solo playing'. NO ONE gives a **** about your solo playing, but logistic alts (I refeer to combat logistics, but also to freighters i.e.) or risk free money making alts (mission runners, miners, even industrials though industrials usually are in player corps because they need for various activities) DO affect people playing the real EVE, not EVE Lite: NPC Corps (aka WoW in space) and do it seriouslly.
So get over it and be glad the change is so minor (yet, I hope, even if we have to wait 2 years for more nerfing of npc corps).
my way or the high way, isn't it. your mommy shouldn't have given you a lolly, every time you cried for one. see what a stereotype you've become.
in any case, i fear, only a small percentage of players will join player corps because of that. i would be interested in, if ccp has some statistics on player behavior. e.g. how many active players are in npc corps for longer that say half a year? did they try player corps before and for how long? and so on. anyone knows, where and if to find such info?
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Seeker Ash
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.09.22 17:00:00 -
[303]
Edited by: Seeker Ash on 22/09/2009 17:04:20 Hey Adam, if I don't give a **** about your "Real EVE" experience, can I whine for some PVP nerfs? Unless you think the game is all about you. _________________ "Even space ships pilots get the blues." |
Cang Zar
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Posted - 2009.09.22 18:07:00 -
[304]
Very butterfingered and unimaginative approach to getting more people to join player corps imo. Seems kinda arbitrary and unreflected too.
If you want players to join player corps, make it more rewarding! Give them reasons and incentives to join.. Dont just raise the tax and hope they quit. Ridiculous case of symptom treatment, instead of going after the root cause.
This wont touch the majority of the problems with npc corps (ooc repping, ooc scounting and so on), anyone doing high-sec alt-CNR missioning will just join their own little corp and make a new one if wardecced (I use a domi and am in a two-man corp already, taxes wont affect me!).
Tbh, if you think the npc corps are "unrealistic" without taxes, just remove the corps.. Have people fly around all by their lonesome, without being in a corp.. The whole "Must be in a corp" seems kinda artificial anyway.
Id be surprised if anyone actually spent more than one hour thinking about what they hope to accomplish with this change and what the actual effects of it will be. Oh well.
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Aqriue
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Posted - 2009.09.22 19:26:00 -
[305]
Seems to be the majority of players that are "lol npc corps tax should be higher" are just a bunch of chicken****s that enjoy gate camping all day long in low sec and afraid of tarnishing their security status by ganking npc corp players in dead space. Grow some balls and be a true pirate or do you truly fear CONCORD so much that you don't want to be ejected from highsec then have to belt rat to get it back? And they are afraid of taking on "Die/harcore" players in the nullsec powerblocks that make billions doing nothing and would actually pose a real challenge instead of blowing up industrials and exhumers then pasting them on KM boards gloating over how "1337" their "All I got was this t-shirt with stupid <---" are.
I dislike the implementation of the NPC corp tax because I already give up any benifits of a corp: 1. Can't Wardec 2. Can't Be wardeced 3. Can't use a POS 4. Everything comes out of my pocket when I loose it, NPC corps do not have reimbursement programs. 5. You can't trust anyone in EVE and I will not stuff a wallet to be stolen, I don't have 23/7 play time.
I would accept the corp tax so long as it actually did something, such as implementing no insurance reimbursement for "unsanctioned" attacks by ganks. If my beinging in a NPC corp should hurt my wallet while being in highsec, then the wallet of SMP (Space Monkey Pirates) should hurt as well when they attack me. The only reason Monkeys use T1 insured hulls to gank is they really don't loose much other then "lol security status" when they then belt rat to get it back up in a few hours. Even while in a player corp your still a carebear in highsec.
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Anima Aquinas
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.22 19:52:00 -
[306]
Edited by: Anima Aquinas on 22/09/2009 19:54:17 Well, Soundwave was true to his word, dev blog is up
Corp Tax Devblog
if you're too lazy to read it, there is semi roleplay (a corporation should tax its citizens for the services it provides) which is fine, i've no problem paying for concord protection (if that protection is only offered to those paying for it), but as it is provided to every hisec citizen i still don't understand why only the NPC corps are being taxed for this service.
FW corps are not being taxed (which is good)
The rest of the justification is
Quote: 11% is our starting estimate. If it turns out that this number is too low and the changes do not have the impact we hope, it can always be adjusted to a higher level. Right now though, we are hoping 11% will provide the balance we are looking for.
up the tax all you want, i won't be leaving my NPC corp as a player corp can't offer what i want, tax me too much, impact the fun i have in this game and i'll be off.
there are better ways to encourage players to join non-NPC corps, think carrots not sticks.
Quote: Still want to stay in an NPC corporation? That’s absolutely fine too, but remember this: while you may escape death in EVE, taxes will still get you.
Being in an NPC corporation doesn't in anyway mean i escape death, i reduce my risk of it and increase the risk of the tool shooting at me get killed, but in no way do i escape it.
Why try and make those of us who don't want to join a player corp, join a player corp?
I fleet, mine, chat and get plenty of social interaction in CAS, we crack down on spam, scam and idiots, its my home and it will be until the day I quit.
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ShadowDraqon
The Quantum Company Independent Faction
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Posted - 2009.09.22 20:14:00 -
[307]
A breakdown of this thread:
45% - "WTF, CCP? Do not want! EMORAGEQUIT!" 45% - "HAHA, U had it coming, carebears sux, make wardecs free!" 10% - "Uh, guys, this makes next to zero difference..."
~ MED-SEC ~ AND The Blatantly Obvious |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.22 21:10:00 -
[308]
Originally by: Daemonspirit
And its not just "joe n00b" in NPC corps that have gotten people against the NPC corps.
And this change will do nothing for that.
Originally by: Daemonspirit
Its the Remote Repairer in the NPC corp, influencing how battles turn out, with not one shred of danger up to the moment he/she activates mods.
And this change will do nothing for that.
Originally by: Daemonspirit
Its the NPC alt corp scouts.
And this change will do nothing for that.
Originally by: Daemonspirit
Its the Hi-Sec missioning alts of 0.0 powerblocks who can farm isk in safety, thereby preventing their enemies the ability to end a fight via economic denial.
And this change will simply make them move to 1 man corp and still avoid every wardec.
Originally by: Daemonspirit
Its the Hi-Sec Logistics alts of 0.0 powerblocks who can transfer mods/ships/POS fuel etc., etc., in complete safety, thereby denying their enemy the chance to end the war via blockade.
And this change will do nothing for that.
Originally by: Daemonspirit
Its the Hi-Sec Traders/Haulers/Industrialists/Inventors who have MUCH less risk performing any of their jobs than anyone else in game (i.e. getting goods to market).
And this change will do nothing for that.
Originally by: Daemonspirit
The perception there is that their costs are less, and can therefore make more on their jobs than Player Corp players.
And that is a stupid perception. The cost are the same if your Corp give back what he get; not need to give it back as isk, but apparently most corps don't give back anything, no security, no advice, no cameradie, only self aggrandizing CEOs .
Originally by: Daemonspirit
A lot of the disgust with NPC corps has nothing to do with Mission Runners per se... But, Hi-sec, lvl 4 mission runners are the current lightning rod de jure...
So essentially hit Adam because Zed has offended you?
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.22 21:32:00 -
[309]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 22/09/2009 21:32:42
The worst part of all this is that after reading the Dev blog your reach the conclusion that CCP has no better reason that what was given in this thread, so essentially "we think it is a great idea and didn't even used the second brain cell to ask ourselves what will be the real effect".
To that you can add Prism X comment about the mission runners in NPC corps being Real Money Traders.
Stupidity rampant.
Originally by: Prof Pain
in any case, i fear, only a small percentage of players will join player corps because of that. i would be interested in, if ccp has some statistics on player behavior. e.g. how many active players are in npc corps for longer that say half a year? did they try player corps before and for how long? and so on. anyone knows, where and if to find such info?
Seeing how CCP elaborate most statistics (at least what they publish) it would be pretty useless.
Take my case, on this account I have 2 alts, both in NPC corps. Both are almost as old as me, both have less than 1 million SP (they have exactly the SP they got when all the old alts were updated in Revelation) and they have seen the starlight maybe 3 times after creation.
So they are on a active account, one was in a player corp for a few days, but they are in reality totally inactive.
Same thing in the second account, only a bit younger as they were created with Revelation.
So we have 4 old characters, all in a NPC corp, but that never did a mission, repped anyone or did anything. I simply keep them there because they are know faces to me and I have no reason to scrap them.
Knowing CCP they would be listed as old active NPC corp members in any statistic, totally forgetting that they are never used.
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Definite Alt
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Posted - 2009.09.22 21:51:00 -
[310]
When will CCP get it through their heads that some people WANT TO PLAY ALONE. What is their frigging obsession with forcing people to join corps? I don't want to play with a bunch of jack@sses, teenagers, and griefers. I don't want to take orders. I don't want to conduct "ops" or share anything. I also don't want to have waste time skilling up to run my own corp, pay the fees, or be subject to random wardecs by idiots like Privateers.
If I want to play alone, I'll end up in a 2 or 3 character corp. I get wardecced. Now what? It's clear I don't have the means to fight a group as large as the Privateers. Great. Now I get to station spin for who knows how long.
I wish the devs who insist that everyone play the game the way they think it should be played would get over themselves. Is this game really a sandbox? Then why do you keep kicking over my sand castle and forcing me to play Tonka trucks with little Billy instead?
You want to see something really interesting, like a creative way to encourage people to work together rather than forcing them to? Let people declare war on NPC corps. Then watch them get their @sses handed to them. If what you want is to increase the risk, stop focusing on controlling people's choices. Instead, give them something that will make them want to do it. |
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Serge Bastana
Gallente GWA Corp
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Posted - 2009.09.22 22:15:00 -
[311]
So you've ranted and told us that you want to play alone, which means that you're probably just going to go on as you were before, correct?
So just go do it, it's a bit of isk out of some peoples wallets, it's not the end of NPC corps.
------------------------------------------------ You either need a punch up the throat or a good shag.
Nobody round here is offering the second one therefore your choices are limited! |
Moarlazorz
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Posted - 2009.09.22 22:19:00 -
[312]
I really don't understand the extent of the emorage here. Yes CCP is going to tax players in NPC corps but in no way will this force you to leave them! Your tax rate is just going up to be the same as the average rate in player corps. I pay my taxes why do you deserve an easier life? Basically your incentive to not be in a player corp is being taken away and its going to be harder to find tax loopholes.
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Jarod Leercap
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Posted - 2009.09.23 01:08:00 -
[313]
Originally by: Moarlazorz I really don't understand the extent of the emorage here. Yes CCP is going to tax players in NPC corps but in no way will this force you to leave them! Your tax rate is just going up to be the same as the average rate in player corps. I pay my taxes why do you deserve an easier life?
If you pay taxes to a corp without any benefit--real, imagined, or aspirational--from doing so, it's pretty clear why you don't understand the objections. You're argument here boils down to, "I flush money down the toilet; it's not fair that some people don't!"
Quote: Basically your incentive to not be in a player corp is being taken away and its going to be harder to find tax loopholes.
First, my incentive to keep my alts in the NPC corps have nothing to do with tax. Second, your so-called tax loophole doesn't exist. It's trivial to set up a one man corp to continue avoiding the tax.
Frankly, the annoyance level is due to two facts. The RP reason stated for the change is BS. I actually LIKE the argument that infrastructure and police have to be paid for. However, it's ridiculous to suggest that the NPC corp pilots are the only ones using said infrastructure or the only ones the authorities would actually charge.
The Dev's haven't made this argument, but I could see an argument for the NPC corps to tax for the facilities they provide, much as PC corps do. That argument falls to pieces, though, when you consider that NPC corps don't actually provide any facilities to their pilots that they don't supply to anyone else. So, again, we're back to the fact that if the NPC corps were going to charge, they wouldn't just charge the NPC pilots.
The war dec resistance argument is pretty laughable from my perspective, as well. One of my alts produces a chunk of income every few months when I gather up the data cores he farms. That's about it, and the war fees necessarily to prevent that alt from this activity would far exceed the money I make from it. Mostly, the alts are used to run research jobs, which they can do seated in a station. At one time I viewed the war dec resistance of an NPC corp as a plus, and it is. However, it's not really a deciding factor.
The fact of the matter is that they'd be unlikely to earn a war dec in their own corps, and it wouldn't be easy to tie them to my main if someone targeted him. And, incidentally, the economic activity and transport is almost entirely done by my main. I'd try to keep business going a bit with the alts, but the fact is that my operations are in two different regions, so I'd have to move my main around to keep things going for any length of time. It's not like this proposal will make me--or any of the more agressive characters--keep their "undercover" alts in the same corps as their mains.
Thus, the only argument left is that they want more players in PC corps. Frankly, one-man corps are probably not what they have in mind. While I like one of the two NPC channels I have alts in, lets put even that aside and assume that there will be a suitable replacement. (I will, however, assert that local ain't it.) If my alts were to bolt, they'd wind up in one-man corps because the primary risk is a mole getting in to try to paste corp-mates for giggles. I don't think that's CCP's vision.
In short, it appears that there is a high level goal, and rather than devise useful game mechanics to make it happen, the designers took a lazy and punitive approach. The punishment isn't harsh, but I don't like getting punished for doing nothing more wrong than not being enticed by the, well, nothing that PC corps have to offer my alts.
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Blastil
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Posted - 2009.09.23 02:11:00 -
[314]
ok I'd like to address some whines I find particularly offensive here.
1) But I wanna play ALONNNEEEEE mommy!
A) This change doesn't alter that. It makes it so that there is no clear ADVANTAGE to playing alone, IE, no tax. Eve is supposed to be a cruel and dangerous universe, yes. that doesn't mean that going it alone is supposed to be an easy path. Considering that if you play alone in an NPC corp there is pretty much no way to harm you unless you actively do something offensive, that is a SERIOUS advantage.
2) But if I make a small 1 man corp I'll get wardecced!
A) Bull ****ing ****. This is simply an out and out LIE. There are perhaps 100 or less active and capable mercinary corps taking contracts. most of these corps are already involved in contracts involving people who are much more important than YOU. Don't flatter yourself, your not a real target. Considering that your the kind of anti-social misanthrope that's in an NPC corp, you may not have ever heard this advice, but shut up, and don't attract attention to yourself. THAT might be why you got wardecced LAST time.
3) CCP doesn't care about high sec solo players!
A) If I were Hilmar Peateurson (or however you spell it...) I would definatly NOT care about highsec solo players. Eve is NOT WoW. You do NOT play this game to get in on the solo grind scene. you play this game to become immersed in its sandbox, and build yourself a little castle out of wits, cunning, and dastardly action. That being said, there is a place for you in Eve-Online, I SUPPOSE. you DO provide minerals, and ships, etc. However, you should NOT be at any advantage over normal players who want to participate in the sandboxes of 0.0 and lowsec, and highsec industry. If you really get off on highsec mission running day after day after day, that's all well and good. I will NEVER understand you, but tbh, you need to be placed on a fair footing, and CCP gets to design their game ANY WAY THEY CHOOSE, and if they want to get rid of your profession, THEY CAN.
And honestly, I think they SHOULD.
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Saerinea Kael
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Posted - 2009.09.23 02:44:00 -
[315]
I've read most of the posts in this thread and while I agree that some things need to be done about NPC corps to get the more experienced players out of them (as they are meant for noobs, as confirmed by the latest dev blog) I, like many others, don't think that a tax incentive should be the way to go.
Some people who disliked the taxation have suggested other incentives, more geared at the people who abuse the current NPC corp mechanics. These are much closer to what I believe should be done, but I can't find myself supporting most of the ideas that have been suggested, such as restricting ships that could be flown.
What I would suggest (and I've seen it before, but I don't think it's been mentioned in this thread) is to create a secondary corp for each NPC corp that removed many of the distinctions between NPC corps and player corps. For simplicity's sake, I'll refer to them as "vet corps" (e.g. "Scope Vets").
Implementation: Upon a length of time since player character creation (ideally two to eight weeks old) any character still in a NPC corp is moved to it's corresponding NPC vet corp. The change would be retroactive and any player in an NPC corp and older than the cutoff to be in the NPC corp would find him/herself in the vet corp.
Mechanics: The vet corp maintains the same "corp" chat channel as its noob counterpart. NPC corps would have a tax rate between zero and five percent, while the vet corps would all have a tax rate slightly below that of the player corp average (ideally between five and ten percent). The vet corp as a whole cannot be wardecced; however, individual players in the vet corp (but not in the NPC corp) can be marked as aids to a current war target, and for a fee (the exact amount a variable based on how long the war has gone on, the age of the player, and the size of the corporations involved in the war) can be included as a target in the wardec.
By implementing a system such as this, you effectively solve many of the problems that players have with the current NPC corp system. With the corresponding corps sharing the same corp chat, the younger players can still learn from the older.
Please note that tax is only included so that the gap in player corp mission runner isk and NPC corp mission runner isk is closed (however small it may be) and that it's implementation is by no means an integral part of this system.
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Erick Odin
Amarr UNIX ALLSTARS
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Posted - 2009.09.23 03:56:00 -
[316]
Quit crying and pay your tax. and to everybody whining that it should be higher, myo(corp)b.
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Terri Lam
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.23 05:03:00 -
[317]
First off: I think it was very clever of CCP Soundwave to link this thread with 11 pages in his Blog instead of this one with 24 pages. Props for downplaying the customer response.
Secondly: I've gone along with a lot of things and happily adapted instead of dieing or "going back to <other MMO>" I voiced my disapproval of the tax in a civil manner (in the other thread) but I must say that I am very disappointed, nay, enraged by this:
Originally by: CCP Soundwave ...other entities that shape the world of EVE at a higher degree than the NPC corporations...
I am all for balance, and role play, and game changes, and the continued evolution of the game environment in general and CCP has done lots of stuff right.
However, just because myself and hundreds of others don't conform to a style of play that you envisioned does not! give you or anyone else the right to belittle us, our achievements, or the effect we have on the game universe. It appears that the butterfly effect is less of philosophy that CCP subscribes to and more of a marketing tool.
You started with a Franklin Roosevelt quote, I'll finish with a Martin Luther King Jr. paraphrase.
I have a dream that myself and other paying customers will one day live in a galaxy where we will not be judged by the logo in our bio, but by the quality of our personality and the skills we have trained. - What MLK Jr. would have said if he'd had a high speed internet connection
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.09.23 05:12:00 -
[318]
Edited by: Veldya on 23/09/2009 05:13:22
Originally by: Jones Bones
Originally by: Veldya
You say you want the sandbox but you don't, Empire would just be another 0.0 nightmare for you on a cosmic level where you get kicked out by the superior force of numbers. If you can't hack it in conquerable space, you wouldn't hack it in a true sandbox in Empire. There are some 300,000 people living in Empire, if they formed massive alliances and an Empire coalition it would be the greatest single force in EVE.
LOL
It does sound laughable, but when you think about it EVE is just a numbers game and they have a 9:1 advantage, it would probably be something like 20:1 vs any individual alliance. If they became organized over time they would have a crazy advantage.
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Kain Simmons
Rennfeuer Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.23 07:32:00 -
[319]
The Npc Corptaxes dont affect me, probably never will but i find this change wired. In a Sandbox people should decide their way to play. Ccp does now enforce some ways over others and they allready proclaimed they WILL raise the taxes until a good chunk of people convert to a player corporation. (Of course they havn't said it that blunt but that dont change the topic, does it ?)
I couln't care less if Npc Player are taxed or not, my issue here is the cutting of freedom with sublime methods, making it more miserable for a certain player group without giving them something in exchange and we have no idea where it ends. Today taxes, tomorrow .... ?
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.23 09:21:00 -
[320]
CCP push EVE as being a game of politics and diplomacy and backstabbing and huge corporations at war with each other for control of resources. That's what creates the headlines on MMO news sites; that's what got ISS into the Wall Street Journal and BoB into the New York Times; that's what turns the heads of WoW players bored of grinding the same old dungeons for purples with their Level 80 characters.
So when people read all about those exiting massive player driven events, think to themselves 'wow that sounds completely different from anything I've played before', what happens? They move over to try it for themselves, and discover that a vast section of the playerbase have opted out of that whole side of the game, sticking in the 'starter' NPC corp forever and are grinding the same old dungeonsmissions for purplesfaction gear with their Level 80 Caldari BS V Cruise Missiles V characters.
Nobody is going to get a story printed in the WSJ or NYT about how Joe The Farmer did 200 missions last week and bought an Estemel's Modified Cruise Missile Launcher for his Navy Raven.
It must be pretty embarrassing for CCP that the 0% tax, wardec-immune NPC corps are an active disincentive for players to take part in what is supposed to be Eve's Unique Selling Point of player-driven corporate interaction, but fortunately they're now taking the first steps towards correcting that and closing the gap between the hype and the reality.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2009.09.23 09:58:00 -
[321]
Originally by: Blastil 1) But I wanna play ALONNNEEEEE mommy!
A) This change doesn't alter that. It makes it so that there is no clear ADVANTAGE to playing alone, IE, no tax.
You are actually completely WRONG on that one!
This change will ENCOURAGE people to play alone, in their own little 1-man corp (easily disbanded and replaced in case of a wardec) without any interaction with other players at all.
Originally by: Blastil 3) CCP doesn't care about high sec solo players!
A) If I were Hilmar Peateurson (or however you spell it...) I would definatly NOT care about highsec solo players.
Ehem.... So the head of CCP should not care about the high number of solo players who provide a high percentage of his company income?
It might come as a shock to you, but CCP is not a not-for-profit charity! CCP is a commercial company, and as such is not bound much by how they think the ideal game should be, but by the financial realities of making the game attractive to a large number of players.
Besides, if you took the time to read the arguments against this 'idea', you'd have discovered that most people object because the idea doesn't seem to have been given the benefit of even a single distracted thought by CCP! It has so many negative side-effects, is easily circumvented, only hits a small percentage of NPC corp members, that it is essentially a useless gesture, probably more damaging to the game than good. This game IS an MMO after all, yet this change is more likely to restrict player interaction than enhance it, but CCP doesn't want to admit that (or more likely they don't know what actually goes on in the NPC corp).
Instead of useless gestures, they should identify the specific PROBLEMS they want to address, and THEN research how to remove them. With this change, they're only addressing the symptom, and that in a way that'll not work.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Aveng3X
Caldari Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.23 10:31:00 -
[322]
Originally by: Definite Alt When will CCP get it through their heads that some people WANT TO PLAY ALONE. What is their frigging obsession with forcing people to join corps? I don't want to play with a bunch of jack@sses, teenagers, and griefers. I don't want to take orders. I don't want to conduct "ops" or share anything. I also don't want to have waste time skilling up to run my own corp, pay the fees, or be subject to random wardecs by idiots like Privateers.
You sir, are most probably a middle aged jack@ass and your neighbour's dog griefs you every morning.
You need lvl1 in corporation management to start a corp which is about 5 minutes of training time.
But frankly, you're playing a game which was designed for player collaboration. If you'd rather Leeroy it, go play WoW. __________________________
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PostWithYourAlt
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Posted - 2009.09.23 10:42:00 -
[323]
Edited by: PostWithYourAlt on 23/09/2009 10:42:44 Damage has allready been done. Just by the way CCP is comunicating the matter.
It is evident from the blog that CCP view NPC Corporation Players as "second class". Players worth less than other.
Another CCP developer posting about his <wet dreams> as he called it and the fact noone of the responsible CCP developers show any kind of reaction to the massive critic just boldly underlines this.
It is a slap in the face to thoose players. Players that pay for this game like everyone else does. |
dreem
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Posted - 2009.09.23 11:06:00 -
[324]
Just create your own corp. Then everyone can wardec you and everyone will be happy.
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Carl Mauser
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.23 13:31:00 -
[325]
It's quite an easy thing, CCP Soundbox clearly stated on company policy
Quote: 11% is our starting estimate. If it turns out that this number is too low and the changes do not have the impact we hope, it can always be adjusted to a higher level
In opposite to what they state, this will over time destroy NPC Corps as there are no advantages over Player Corps. Game mechanics go in the direction, that also quicly changing companies to evade wardecs will be impossible. So CCP wants people to PVP!
For players who played EVE as Sandbox game (have fun, hang around with friends, do things that you like but no interest in unlimited PVP against older and better equipped Players who have all their mates around) it's a setback. As this only PVP orientated game principle doesn't suit my interest anymore, I decided to cancel my subscription and change to other games.
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Blastil
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Posted - 2009.09.23 14:32:00 -
[326]
Edited by: Blastil on 23/09/2009 14:37:05 Edited by: Blastil on 23/09/2009 14:32:47
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Blastil 1) But I wanna play ALONNNEEEEE mommy!
A) This change doesn't alter that. It makes it so that there is no clear ADVANTAGE to playing alone, IE, no tax.
You are actually completely WRONG on that one!
This change will ENCOURAGE people to play alone, in their own little 1-man corp (easily disbanded and replaced in case of a wardec) without any interaction with other players at all.
Your right, people will make one man corps. Regardless of what they do they still won't have a clear advantage to playing alone, so my point still stands. I don't care what you do, as long as its fair enough and within game play mechanics, no problems.
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Blastil 3) CCP doesn't care about high sec solo players!
A) If I were Hilmar Peateurson (or however you spell it...) I would definatly NOT care about highsec solo players.
Pointless Yammering.
To begin with, CCP is infact a for-profit entity, but they had a vision when they made EVE, and they want to take steps to obtain that vision. They hope that they make profit obtaining that vision and goal, but when you make ART like the mona lisa, or a videogame where thousands of players interact in a dangerous dance of destruction and trade in a dynamic universe, you can change whatever you DAMN WELL PLEASE to encourage or force people to play the game more in line with that vision.
Also, high sec players who are in NPC corps make up a relatively small percentage of the player base, probably close to 1200. Thats generously estimating 300-400 REAL players(not alts, not spies, not scout alts, and not market alts). The rest of them joined player corps, even in high sec, and are happily mining or missioning, or whatever. You are quite a small, but vocal minority of strange strange people who come onto an MMORPG to play alone.
No one of value is going to rage quit over these changes, and no one who begins this game will leave because theres a petty 11% tax on the NPC corps
As for problems, let us address a few that a taxless NPC corp has-
1) EVE is a video game. Unlike in real economoies, there is no 'eve fed' regulating cashflow in game, and monitoring inflation. CCP cannot stop the market from happening, nor can they rip money directly out of your wallet. Actually, that's a lie, they can, in the form of fees and taxes.
In a normal player cooperation, this happens via a tax on its players, who then take that ISK to pay for offices and corp fees, which are isk sinks. Billions of ISK a month are drained from the economy this way. NPC Corp players were damaging the economy by NOT having such an isk sink.
2) As CCP said, they intended NPC corps to be temporary places of refuge between player corps, not shanty towns full of undesirables and the occasional strange person who likes to play a multi-player game with himself. People aparently are sticking around too long.
3) ???? For whatever reason, CCP has decided this. There may be other reasons, like attempts to combat macro ratters/miners, but I've no idea about that since CCP keeps a strict 'loose lips sink ships' policy about macro ratting, and don't tell us if anything is for the express purpose of combating macros, which I have a strong suspicious what this is REALLY about. If CCP forces macros into player corps, they can track them more easily.
4) Profit. The eve universe profits more from players in player corps. Period. You do NOT make as much money as two people working together. Everything in EVE is more profitable the more manpower you put into it, and you are more of a leech on the economy than a life source pumping needed goods and money into the system.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.09.23 15:19:00 -
[327]
Quote: It is a slap in the face to thoose players. Players that pay their taxes like everyone else does.
I fixed that for you.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Julian Lynq
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Posted - 2009.09.23 15:22:00 -
[328]
Originally by: Blastil Also, high sec players who are in NPC corps make up a relatively small percentage of the player base, probably close to 1200. Thats generously estimating 300-400 REAL players(not alts, not spies, not scout alts, and not market alts). The rest of them joined player corps, even in high sec, and are happily mining or missioning, or whatever. You are quite a small, but vocal minority of strange strange people who come onto an MMORPG to play alone.
Where do you pull theese ridicoulous numbers out of?
Show citation or shut it up. This is stupid.
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.09.23 15:59:00 -
[329]
Originally by: Blastil ok I'd like to address some whines I find particularly offensive here.
It is one thing to not agree, but to totally miss the points makes you fairly clueless.
Quote:
1) But I wanna play ALONNNEEEEE mommy!
No. All the empire content is soloable. If you had empire content suited for squads or fleets with appropriate rewards for the effort there would be a purpose to medium sized player corps in empire other than padding the CEO's wallet.
Quote:
A) This change doesn't alter that. It makes it so that there is no clear ADVANTAGE to playing alone, IE, no tax.
No it doesn't. You can make your one man corp and have no tax. But, it comes at the cost of a significant loss of social interaction.
Quote:
Eve is supposed to be a cruel and dangerous universe, yes. that doesn't mean that going it alone is supposed to be an easy path.
There is no difference, danger-wise, between a 1 man corp and npc corps. One is disposable, the other is immune, same **** really.
Quote:
Considering that if you play alone in an NPC corp there is pretty much no way to harm you unless you actively do something offensive, that is a SERIOUS advantage.
Yeah, nobody in a npc corp has ever been suicide ganked, ever. Seriously...
Quote:
2) But if I make a small 1 man corp I'll get wardecced!
Nobody has even raised this point, you are ******ed.
Quote:
A) Bull ****ing ****. This is simply an out and out LIE. There are perhaps 100 or less active and capable mercinary corps taking contracts. most of these corps are already involved in contracts involving people who are much more important than YOU. Don't flatter yourself, your not a real target. Considering that your the kind of anti-social misanthrope that's in an NPC corp, you may not have ever heard this advice, but shut up, and don't attract attention to yourself. THAT might be why you got wardecced LAST time.
Wardecs are just consequent free hauler action, or by small time pirates trying to extort smaller corps. 1 man corps don't care because their corp is disposable and cheaper to re-create than it costs to wardec.
I annoy the **** out of people on the forums and even I don't get wardecced. However, if i had 50 odd members i would lose the portability and would become more of a target for extortion.
Wardecs hurt the kind of corps CCP wants to see flourish. It doesn't impact the solo player at all. Even if you had to re-create your corp every day, it would be a ****ing irrelevantly small money investment.
Quote:
3) CCP doesn't care about high sec solo players!
A) If I were Hilmar Peateurson (or however you spell it...) I would definatly NOT care about highsec solo players.
He isn't as stupid as you are. You know the flashy new free expansion you are getting next month? It wouldn't be possible without the empire carebears. 90% of the playerbase live in Empire. You would want to have a pretty good understanding of what 90% of your playerbase is doing and why.
Quote:
Eve is NOT WoW. You do NOT play this game to get in on the solo grind scene. you play this game to become immersed in its sandbox, and build yourself a little castle out of wits, cunning, and dastardly action.
---snip mindless rant---
How many people spend all their time in EVE in just npc corps? It would be fairly small minority. Most come in and out in transition phases, many spend a period of time in empire because they are broke. Making money is a means to an end.
Taxing them for no reason and for no gain just extends the time it takes to make enough money to reach their goals. It makes the grind longer than it has to be. It penalises people that choose social interaction over maximising profits.
Problems with player corps in Empire. a) Wardecs on small size corps that can't defend and can't afford mercs. b) Vulnerability to corp mates (griefers who join to pod corp members) c) Lack of cooperative content in empire
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PostWithYourAlt
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Posted - 2009.09.23 18:37:00 -
[330]
this is not a page 2 thread |
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Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.23 18:48:00 -
[331]
Originally by: Blastil A big amount of stupid arguments and non sense.
Just a tip : The number you can see at the top of the NPC channel is NOT the number of guys in the Corp
According to this dev blog, there is more than 1200 players in all NPC Corps, just only 200K accounts... Well, you was close, I have to admit And so more than 300/400 real ones... 1200 is probably the number of connected ones in one NPC Corp only, and there are 45 of them...
And two people working together = more profit than one, let me laught.
In 0.0, it is better to keep a system only for yourself if you want farm, because be two means less profit (less belts or obligation to let the salvage to the second player). A mission would give a better profit.
If you like mining in High or null secs, it is better to do it alone with a cargoholded Hulk or with an alt to haul your ore, or you will have to share your profit with the hauler.
Etc...
Your assumption is wrong. Period. You do NOT make as much money as one player who is alone, at least not in all cases. Apart in your dreams. _______ Local is fine, period.
CCP devs, you nerfed shield resists by 8.3% but armor by 7.1% (The old Explo/EM "10 points" Nerf). When will you correct this inconsistency ? |
Saerinea Kael
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Posted - 2009.09.23 21:11:00 -
[332]
Originally by: Sky Marshal
Originally by: Blastil A big amount of stupid arguments and non sense.
Just a tip : The number you can see at the top of the NPC channel is NOT the number of guys in the Corp
According to this dev blog, there is more than 1200 players in all NPC Corps, just only 200K accounts... Well, you was close, I have to admit And so more than 300/400 real ones... 1200 is probably the number of connected ones in one NPC Corp only, and there are 45 of them...
And two people working together = more profit than one, let me laught.
In 0.0, it is better to keep a system only for yourself if you want farm, because be two means less profit (less belts or obligation to let the salvage to the second player). A mission would give a better profit.
If you like mining in High or null secs, it is better to do it alone with a cargoholded Hulk or with an alt to haul your ore, or you will have to share your profit with the hauler.
Etc...
Your assumption is wrong. Period. You do NOT make as much money as one player who is alone, at least not in all cases. Apart in your dreams.
First of all I would like to say that either you don't know how to read graphs and charts, or I completely missed the point you were trying to make for by posting the Dev blog (of which each are equally likely as this is the internet and everyone is, by definition, ******ed). Let me state that the Dev blog asserts that only 21% of the EVE population is in a NPC corporation. Again only 21% of the EVE population is in a NPC corp.
This may come as a shock to those touting the 90% number. Let me make this perfectly clear, just because 90% of the population is in highsec does not mean that 90% of the population is in NPC corps.
Secondly, working with a few people (not a ton) will usually earn more profit per hour than working alone, which I believe is the point that Blastil was trying to make, although he did a very poor job of stating his case. In missioning 2 players can get through 2 missions faster than one person can get through one mission (although not much) in mining 2 people can clear two belts faster than one person can clear one (again, by a very small margin). The point isn't that you can make more money necessarily by having a partner (this only holds true when resources are unlimited) but that you can make a greater isk/hour ratio with some help (assuming even cuts).
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Julian Lynq
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Posted - 2009.09.23 21:12:00 -
[333]
Originally by: Sky Marshal
Originally by: Blastil A big amount of stupid arguments and non sense.
Just a tip : The number you can see at the top of the NPC channel is NOT the number of guys in the Corp
According to this dev blog, there is more than 1200 players in all NPC Corps, just only 200K accounts... Well, you was close, I have to admit And so more than 300/400 real ones... 1200 is probably the number of connected ones in one NPC Corp only, and there are 45 of them...
And two people working together = more profit than one, let me laught.
In 0.0, it is better to keep a system only for yourself if you want farm, because be two means less profit (less belts or obligation to let the salvage to the second player). A mission would give a better profit.
If you like mining in High or null secs, it is better to do it alone with a cargoholded Hulk or with an alt to haul your ore, or you will have to share your profit with the hauler.
Etc...
Your assumption is wrong. Period. You do NOT make as much money as one player who is alone, at least not in all cases. Apart in your dreams.
Finally we have real numbers. Thanks for digging this out. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.23 21:27:00 -
[334]
Originally by: Saerinea Kael
First of all I would like to say that either you don't know how to read graphs and charts, or I completely missed the point you were trying to make for by posting the Dev blog (of which each are equally likely as this is the internet and everyone is, by definition, ******ed). Let me state that the Dev blog asserts that only 21% of the EVE population is in a NPC corporation. Again only 21% of the EVE population is in a NPC corp.
Total population at the time of the blog: 399.940 people in NPC corps: 204.916
204.916/399.940=0,5123= 51,23%
21% was the percentage of people with more than 2 millions SP, but that is irrelevant in this discussions as the change impact all the members of NPC corps, not only those with more than a month of training.
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Saerinea Kael
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Posted - 2009.09.23 21:47:00 -
[335]
Edited by: Saerinea Kael on 23/09/2009 21:49:20
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Saerinea Kael
First of all I would like to say that either you don't know how to read graphs and charts, or I completely missed the point you were trying to make for by posting the Dev blog (of which each are equally likely as this is the internet and everyone is, by definition, ******ed). Let me state that the Dev blog asserts that only 21% of the EVE population is in a NPC corporation. Again only 21% of the EVE population is in a NPC corp.
Total population at the time of the blog: 399.940 people in NPC corps: 204.916
204.916/399.940=0,5123= 51,23%
21% was the percentage of people with more than 2 millions SP, but that is irrelevant in this discussions as the change impact all the members of NPC corps, not only those with more than a month of training.
Yes, but did you read why they made that calculation?
Every player who has ever made a trial account and actually tried the game but decided they didn't like it has a character, still alive, sitting in the NPC corp collecting dust because those characters are preserved.
By using the sample of characters with more than 2 mill sp, you can estimate that by the time people reach about 2 mill sp 79% will have moved on to player corps. Hence 21% is a much better estimate as opposed to the ~50% estimate that is gained using the total numbers.
For this reason, the 21% is not an irrelevant number, but your ~50% is.
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Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.23 23:20:00 -
[336]
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 23/09/2009 23:20:16
The devblog stated about active characters only, so cancelled characters are not counted and same with 800K SP at begin, get 2M can not be done in few days only, but mostly after one month or two. Also, 2007 was the year when a good amount of players entered in the game [Linkage] to get today 300K subscribers. I don't see why beginners couldn't be considered, same if it would be interresting to have updated numbers indeed. It is more than 1200 in all cases ^^
Anyway, if we considered only > 2M as you did, so it was only 21%, so why create a tax for a non-existent problem ? It seems like that a majority of players are in player corp and few only stays in a NPC despite the uber-advantage of the wardec protection unlike player corps. Maybe it is not anymore 21% ? _______ Local is fine, period.
CCP devs, you nerfed shield resists by 8.3% but armor by 7.1% (The old Explo/EM "10 points" Nerf). When will you correct this inconsistency ? |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.23 23:32:00 -
[337]
Originally by: Sky Marshal
Anyway, if we considered only > 2M as you did, so it was only 21%, so why create a tax for a non-existent problem ? It seems like that a majority of players are in player corp and few only stays in a NPC despite the uber-advantage of the wardec protection unlike player corps. Maybe it is not anymore 21% ?
Because maybe a large percentage of those characters are alts of players in player run corps, simply there to avoid the consequence involved with being a member of a player corp? If your corp is at war your alt can still be farming isk in safety. Actually, I would be very interested to know how many characters (in percentage terms) are alts or second accounts of players with characters in player corps. Not that there is likely a way to get an accurate count on it.
アニメ漫画です
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.09.24 04:48:00 -
[338]
Originally by: Avon
Because maybe a large percentage of those characters are alts of players in player run corps, simply there to avoid the consequence involved with being a member of a player corp? If your corp is at war your alt can still be farming isk in safety. Actually, I would be very interested to know how many characters (in percentage terms) are alts or second accounts of players with characters in player corps. Not that there is likely a way to get an accurate count on it.
You are making a lot of baseless assumptions.
Most people I know who are in 0.0 alliances that have alts not in the 0.0 alliance do so to avoid the wardec on their 0.0 alliance so they can move things around empire. It is not to avoid wardecs all together, some are in 1 man alt corps, others in npc corps.
The tax doesn't avoid wardec evasion.
THIS change is not intended to fix wardec evasion. It is intended to get more people into real player corps but they don't understand why people are not going into them and addressing those issues.
It is just a lazy change that requires the least effort and those changes rarely result in a better experience.
Dislodging 10 to 20% of NPC corp members into 1 man corps isn't going to achieve what they wanted, it isn't going to help the pirate who can't wardec the 1 man corp dude who just has to spend less than 2m per day to get the same immunity, that would be far less than whatever tax they will pay if they were a heavy mission runner.
What is next? Target the 1 man corps? Make wardeccing easier? It will get to a point where it will force more people into the account management page than than the corp recruitment page.
Like it or not, the vast majority of the expansions and improvements to the game are funded by Empire residents. CCP should make the effort to understand them and how best to reach an equilibrium between the PvErs and PvPers.
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zpr
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Posted - 2009.09.24 04:58:00 -
[339]
this 11% does not effect market orders, manufacturing, or mining so its a nerf to only a small segment of the NPC lovin' players (the mission runners).
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Daemonspirit
An Android Lust
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Posted - 2009.09.24 05:11:00 -
[340]
Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 23/09/2009 23:28:37
The devblog stated about active characters only, so cancelled characters are not counted and same with 800K SP at begin, get 2M can not be done in few days only, but mostly after one month or two. Also, 2007 was the year when a good amount of players entered in the game [Linkage] to get today 300K subscribers. I don't see why beginners couldn't be considered, same if it would be interresting to have updated numbers indeed. It is more than 1200 in all cases ^^
Anyway, if we considered only > 2M as you did, so it was only 21%, so why create a tax for a non-existent problem ? It seems like that an absolute majority of players are in player corp and few only stays in a NPC despite the uber-advantage of the wardec protection unlike player corps. Maybe it is not anymore 21% ?
Also - of that 21% - counting all the alts (cyno/0.0/pirate/pvp'r) what does that do to the overall %?
ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö |
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Bonny Lee
Caldari The Guardian Agency Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.24 07:34:00 -
[341]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Saerinea Kael
First of all I would like to say that either you don't know how to read graphs and charts, or I completely missed the point you were trying to make for by posting the Dev blog (of which each are equally likely as this is the internet and everyone is, by definition, ******ed). Let me state that the Dev blog asserts that only 21% of the EVE population is in a NPC corporation. Again only 21% of the EVE population is in a NPC corp.
Total population at the time of the blog: 399.940 people in NPC corps: 204.916
204.916/399.940=0,5123= 51,23%
21% was the percentage of people with more than 2 millions SP, but that is irrelevant in this discussions as the change impact all the members of NPC corps, not only those with more than a month of training.
I have 2 accounts with 6 Characters. 2 Characters are in a Corporation. Those are my main Chars. 4 Characters are in NPC-Corps. They are buying some stuff in Jita, opening Cynos or just being my bank.
So 66% of my Characters are in NPC-Corps. And you really wanna tell me that Chars under 1 million SP do matter? Maybe some of them but for sure not the majority.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.24 10:56:00 -
[342]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Sky Marshal
Anyway, if we considered only > 2M as you did, so it was only 21%, so why create a tax for a non-existent problem ? It seems like that a majority of players are in player corp and few only stays in a NPC despite the uber-advantage of the wardec protection unlike player corps. Maybe it is not anymore 21% ?
Because maybe a large percentage of those characters are alts of players in player run corps, simply there to avoid the consequence involved with being a member of a player corp? If your corp is at war your alt can still be farming isk in safety. Actually, I would be very interested to know how many characters (in percentage terms) are alts or second accounts of players with characters in player corps. Not that there is likely a way to get an accurate count on it.
But those are exactly the characters that will move to 1 man corp, be still basically immune from wardecs and laugh at this change, while the real new players will be affected by it.
Note that, as already stated a lot of times, today, with a raven and less than 2 millions SP you can still run level 4 missions with a decent level of efficiency.
With the current cost of a CNR it is very easy to substitute a bigger ship for character skills.
So those guys with less than 2 million SP matter because: - they are new players and this change will impact them the most; - they are low SP alts for farming missions and will be the ones that will create some thousand of 1 man corps and not join a multiplayer corp.
So if the goal really is to get people to join the player run corporations with multiple players it will hardly work.
If the goal is to get 1-2.000 1 player corps made of alts of 0.0 players and claim "we have increased the number of player corps by x%", it will reach it. But it will mean nothing.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.09.24 11:19:00 -
[343]
Originally by: Aethrwolf By hiding in an NPC corp to avoid actions of any other players that have or might affect you, the other player has won. you have LET them win.
Reverse psychology. Seriously? Don't know if I am amused or insulted As long as there is nothing to be gained by joining a PC why should people bother? Make it worth the while and people will flock to them in short order, blindly taxing them does not make PCs any more desirable.
Originally by: Venkul Mul If the goal is to get 1-2.000 1 player corps made of alts of 0.0 players and claim "we have increased the number of player corps by x%", it will reach it. But it will mean nothing.
It is always a refreshing to see someone even more pessimistic than myself, a pleasure to be sure The point is valid though, a lot of the so called safety-addicts are alts of 0.0 folk and low-sec PvP'ers, existing solely to provide a steady personal income with minimal fuss.
I made my corporation to get the corporate hangar divisions as it makes the industrial life so much easier. There is so much more that could be done to make life in a PC even more attractive, so I hope this is CCPs way of saying they are aware of it and are putting resources aside to tackle it properly using this as a stop-gap measure.
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AsheraII
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Posted - 2009.09.24 11:41:00 -
[344]
Originally by: StainLessStealRat Welcome to EvE All those NPCers that have been in a NPC corp since day 1 will now have to play the real eve with the rest of us.
You mean there's like... Two different EVE games, with different clients and all, but secretely connecting to the same servers? Sorry to burst your bubble, but the EVE they play is as real as the EVE you play (as far as "real" is even a consideration in a GAME, a science FICTION game at that :P). They can as much do what they like in EVE as you can do what you like in EVE.
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Nova Sato
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.09.24 15:18:00 -
[345]
Edited by: Nova Sato on 24/09/2009 15:19:04
Originally by: Mia Morningstar Edited by: Mia Morningstar on 19/09/2009 16:32:34 This change is a joke.
The tax affects: Mission reward (less than 10% from total lvl4 mission income)
The tax doesn't affect: Time bonus reward, LPs, Belt rat bounty, mission rat bounty? (CBA to count), Amount of salvage/loot?
So the 11% tax from mission reward is very cheap cost in exchange for war immunity.
edit>meh
What with salvaging the wrecks and the loot, the mission reward is more like the icing on the cake. Sure it is nice but most of the ISK comes from loot & salvage. this will be a mostly neutral move. And last time I checked market transactions did not get a corp tax on them. (Selling loot, Salvage & minerals are exempt )
If anyone quits an NPC corp solely because of this then they are stupid beyond belief.
Originally by: evelopedia Tax Rate refers to how much of a Corporation member's income goes into the Corporation's wallet. It's however limited to Mission Rewards, Bonus Rewards and NPC Bounty, exceeding a certain minimum amount only.
_______________________________________________________________________ The limits of the possible can only be defined by going beyond them into the impossible. |
Aditia Holdem
Doom Guard Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.09.24 16:36:00 -
[346]
One of the best tears threads to date! <3
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Izo Alabaster
Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company
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Posted - 2009.09.24 17:09:00 -
[347]
The NPC corp tax should be at least 35% in order to encourage people to get out of NPC corps. 11% is not an encouragement, it's simply causing them to not make MORE money by switching to an NPC corp, bringing NPC and PC corps back into equality.
Raise the tax rate to 35% please. Many are calling for 50%, which I don't feel would be unreasonable.
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Izo Alabaster
Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company
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Posted - 2009.09.24 17:35:00 -
[348]
Edited by: Izo Alabaster on 24/09/2009 17:35:00 Oops.
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Julian Lynq
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Posted - 2009.09.24 18:04:00 -
[349]
Originally by: Izo Alabaster The NPC corp tax should be at least 35% in order to encourage people to get out of NPC corps. 11% is not an encouragement, it's simply causing them to not make MORE money by switching to an NPC corp, bringing NPC and PC corps back into equality.
Raise the tax rate to 35% please. Many are calling for 50%, which I don't feel would be unreasonable.
I feel sorry for you. Must be sad days in your corp. |
Art Vanity
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Posted - 2009.09.24 22:21:00 -
[350]
As someone who in all likelihood is going to be finished with player corporations run by people other than me very soon (due to being sick and tired of paying 15% to an absentee landlord--incidentally, if anybody wants any dirt on Circle-of-Two, feel free to drop me a line; been itching to sell them down the river for a long time), this change is extremely irritating.
--but not because it makes NPC corps less appealing. Rather, it's irritating because it's just another level of hoops I have to jump through to avoid paying some other player to play the game (yes, I realize there are 0% tax player corps out there). Formerly the procedure was just to join an NPC corp, call it a day. Now I'll have to make my own one-man-corp or two, and hop around between them if I ever get a war-dec. The net result is the same for me, as it is for anyone else who wants to play peacefully in high sec (or pirate, under some circumstances); the difference is that now there's another hurdle in the way, and while the inconvenience itself is really minor, I'm extremely annoyed that CCP has taken this kind of step to steer players into playing what we all have come to appreciate as a sandbox game, as something less.
Meh.
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Halatosi
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Posted - 2009.09.25 08:36:00 -
[351]
Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Julian Lynq yes sure best change... why not make wardecs free also ? so all of you super leet people can declare war on the new 1 man corps?and raise tax to 100%. also great of ccp not having the balls to put it in change notes-no wait make it 120% so people acutally loose money and make wardecs give the deccing corp 1b isk instead of costing money.
Welcome to the real world (Of eve), where you have to be smart and group together with intelligent players to survive.
I've ran my little 5 man + alt corp (Less if you count who is active) and we've never been "griefed" once, not in the whole 3 years it has been around. Stop making yourself a target.
ya fina. i am not you also there is no real world of eve. eve is a sandbox that means i can have choice. i not force you to play me game so i dont need play your game too. also yes very smart and intelligent play i forsee when 500 people corp wardec 2-3 people corp i guess they need very intelligent play for this.
Mup da doo didda po mo gub bidda be dat tum muhfugen, bix nood!
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Hun Jakuza
24th Imperial Guard
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Posted - 2009.09.25 08:55:00 -
[352]
Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 25/09/2009 08:57:42
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Saerinea Kael
First of all I would like to say that either you don't know how to read graphs and charts, or I completely missed the point you were trying to make for by posting the Dev blog (of which each are equally likely as this is the internet and everyone is, by definition, ******ed). Let me state that the Dev blog asserts that only 21% of the EVE population is in a NPC corporation. Again only 21% of the EVE population is in a NPC corp.
I think over 70%. Total population at the time of the blog: 399.940 people in NPC corps: 204.916
204.916/399.940=0,5123= 51,23%
21% was the percentage of people with more than 2 millions SP, but that is irrelevant in this discussions as the change impact all the members of NPC corps, not only those with more than a month of training.
Need an another data. How mutch 0.0 riskfree alt ? So the tax is good but too low, need more up.
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Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.25 10:26:00 -
[353]
Yeah, we all know that all NPC players are 0.0 alts and all of them do missions
Are you a politician ?
_______ Local is fine, period.
CCP devs, you nerfed shield resists by 8.3% but armor by 7.1% (The old Explo/EM "10 points" Nerf). When will you correct this inconsistency ? |
Hun Jakuza
24th Imperial Guard
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Posted - 2009.09.25 12:53:00 -
[354]
Originally by: Sky Marshal Yeah, we all know that all NPC players are 0.0 alts and all of them do missions
Are you a politician ?
But we know, and everyone know the NPC corp members of bigger part is alt. So how many alt you have ? 0.0 members of 70%-80% minimum have 1 alt. Lot of 0.0 member have 2-3 alt and most this member live in high sec. This members make freighter run, working at R&D agent, mission runing for money if they can't play in 0.0 because their stations or system camped or some reason, like wardec immunity. So dont want to scraching me with this word "politican". Truth is truth, not something other thing. But the CCP dev have data how many high sec player alt or very old char.
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Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.25 16:15:00 -
[355]
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 25/09/2009 16:15:52
Do I have to use the expression ½ Proof or it doesn't exist + ?
Your numbers is your opinion, not a fact. 70/80% coming from nowhere, politicians do this all the time.
As it is an opinion, it is not necessary the truth. And as you said, they can do hauling, trading, R&D... So this tax will change nearly nothing, but will generate more problems if CCP apply his threat to increase it (more 1-Man Corp who provide a virtual wardec immunity, etc...). Well, at least, if there are more 1-Man Corp, CCP can't say nothing : They are in a Player Corp ^^
_______ Local is fine, period.
CCP devs, you nerfed shield resists by 8.3% but armor by 7.1% (The old Explo/EM "10 points" Nerf). When will you correct this inconsistency ? |
Tiger's Spirit
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Posted - 2009.09.25 16:37:00 -
[356]
Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 25/09/2009 16:15:52
Do I have to use the expression ½ Proof or it doesn't exist + ?
Your numbers is your opinion, not a fact. 70/80% coming from nowhere, politicians do this all the time.
As it is an opinion, it is not necessary the truth. And as you said, they can do hauling, trading, R&D... So this tax will change nearly nothing, but will generate more problems if CCP apply his threat to increase it (more 1-Man Corp who provide a virtual wardec immunity, etc...). Well, at least, if there are more 1-Man Corp, CCP can't say nothing : They are in a Player Corp ^^
Bye-bye to 1-man corp. kTHX
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Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.09.25 20:56:00 -
[357]
Erm did anyone actually consider that there is no tax for drone loot nor LP nor tags (both faction navies and sleepers). It is more half-ased then most would admit.
The whole corp tax is beyond lame, yet another scam venue made by CCP.
Contrary to popular belief, even 100% corp tax during CTA won't prohibit anyone sentient from NPCing or other soloing, much less this.
If you want to make taxes meaningfull, pay bonus bounty to sov holder for every rat (belt, plex, mission) killed in his space no matter who did it. That will actually do something to promote player interaction, this will not.
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Lemmy Kravitz
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Posted - 2009.09.25 23:16:00 -
[358]
I like this. Gives an insentive for people to get into a corporation. I would raise the tax to 15% so that way people are truelly motivated to either start thier own corp, or join one. Staying in the NPC corp emobear running is lame. Get more respect if you're in a emobear corp, cause atleast you run the risk of being dec'd.
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Shayzan
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.26 01:32:00 -
[359]
An 11% tax will not convince me to leave CAS. I like my NPC corp and a good chunk of the people in it. What I like the most is being completely independent, to be social with a large and diverse group of people, or not, as I choose.
That said, progressive taxes, etc. that have been suggested as further coercions to get people to leave NPC's are quite capable of convincing me to leave the game entirely.
I am assuming that CCP wants as large a subscriber base as they can get. If so, they need to make room at the table for ALL types of players. Using a coercive "nudge" to try and force people to play a game they don't want does nothing to improve Eve. A tax to support Concord is reasonable, but only if everyone in Hisec is paying it. Otherwise, it needs some other justification. Concord protects everyone in Hisec, not just people in an NPC.
Personally, a sheeplike adherence to only one style of play is exactly what I want to avoid when I come to Eve vs. other MMORPGs. What amazes me is that there seem to be so many people who cannot conceive that anyone might want to play differently than they do, and are all for finding some way of forcing them to.
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Harkwyth Mist
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.09.26 02:35:00 -
[360]
It's too low.
Taxation is a start but it's not enough.
Needed Changes: - People should pay to Dock at stations. - People should pay for cargo handling. - People should pay for using Hanger Storage per m3. - People should pay to use Warp Gates.
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Tiger's Spirit
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Posted - 2009.09.26 04:11:00 -
[361]
Originally by: Harkwyth Mist It's too low.
Taxation is a start but it's not enough.
Needed Changes: - People should pay to Dock at stations. - People should pay for cargo handling. - People should pay for using Hanger Storage per m3. - People should pay to use Warp Gates.
Agreed Or :
1-3 months players just pay 0% tax. 3-6 months players just pay 11% tax. 6-12 months players just pay 25% tax. Over 12 months players just pay 50% tax. (Over 24 months players just pay 75% tax.)
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Dianabolic
Reikoku
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Posted - 2009.09.26 09:15:00 -
[362]
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit
Originally by: Harkwyth Mist It's too low.
Taxation is a start but it's not enough.
Needed Changes: - People should pay to Dock at stations. - People should pay for cargo handling. - People should pay for using Hanger Storage per m3. - People should pay to use Warp Gates.
Agreed Or :
1-3 months players just pay 0% tax. 3-6 months players just pay 11% tax. 6-12 months players just pay 25% tax. Over 12 months players just pay 50% tax. (Over 24 months players just pay 75% tax.)
And time spent in an NPC corp for this calculation should be cumulative.
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McFly
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Posted - 2009.09.26 10:10:00 -
[363]
Aren't we missing a fairly huge door this is going to open?
Tax doesn't effect... Market Transactions, Manufacturing Research
How many NPC Corp Sitting Traders/Miners/Producers etc won't be affected by this?
My only gripe is if the goal is to get people out of the NPC Corps and playing Player Corps, okay fine, but adding a tax to the NPC Corps really only effects the Mission Runners. Now CCP is basically in a around the bush way punishing mission runners, while leaving the current protection of NPC Corps available to Industrial/Market Professions, without the same penalty that the PVE players will be recieving.
Now I dont care either way, but I think it is a valid point that Corp Tax doesn't effect Industrial/Market Players, while digs the wallets of the PVE Players.
On a side note, I think that this may warrant a change to Corp Tax mechanics in general. Corp Taxes are only collected from Agent Transactions, and NPC Bounties, that's it. They aren't collected from a miner selling minerals, or from a trader running modules from jita to low-sec system x. Doesn't seem like a very reasonable system to me.
If the goal is to get people out of the NPC Corp Sanctuaries, then it should effect all pilots. Granted the Market playing characters could just create 1 man corps, and if they only operate in a single market hub would be immune to all wardeccing becuase they never undock. Most do need to run around a bit tho.
Miners of course have to undock to perform their trade. So like mission runners them being taxed would push many miners out of the NPC Corps and into the Player Corps, or create their own.
Production/Research Characters mostly have their own corps for the need of a POS, or living in research alliances. So moot point there.
Just some thoughts, if you're going to do something it shouldn't only effect group 1, while 2, 3, and 4 are unscathed.
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Aiko Intaki
Lodizal Capsuleers Lodizal Conglomerate
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Posted - 2009.09.27 17:35:00 -
[364]
Tie taxation rate to faction warfare success.
The more successful the faction your corporation belongs to is, the less you are taxed due to the profitable opportunities which arise with increased territory. The less successful the faction your corporation belongs to is, the more you are taxed to cover war loss costs. In either case, the people actually partaking in NPC faction warfare corporations benefit from not being taxed at all.
It'll encourage people leave NPC corps, possibly even moving into faction warfare.
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Terri Lam
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.09.28 03:50:00 -
[365]
Originally by: Aiko Intaki Tie taxation rate to faction warfare success.
It'll encourage people leave NPC corps, possibly even moving into faction warfare.
If I leave my NPC corp and go to faction warfare because of the tax, then I no longer have any stake in the tax; which means I have no reason to be in faction warfare.
Best case scenario people log on with FW alts, grind Faction LP, sell Faction mods and ships for crazy profits and wait for the tax in their respective corp to go down. Then log onto their NPC main and return to whatever they were doing that was being taxed. Rinse and Repeat. ofc many NPC players who only trade / mine / manufacture etc. are not affected by the tax so they don't even log onto FW alts.
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Kachiko Sama
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.28 11:22:00 -
[366]
Originally by: Aiko Intaki Tie taxation rate to faction warfare success.
The more successful the faction your corporation belongs to is, the less you are taxed due to the profitable opportunities which arise with increased territory. The less successful the faction your corporation belongs to is, the more you are taxed to cover war loss costs. In either case, the people actually partaking in NPC faction warfare corporations benefit from not being taxed at all.
It'll encourage people leave NPC corps, possibly even moving into faction warfare.
This is a pretty terrible thread, and this is a terrible post (much like mine).
If you do this many of the people complaining would join the 'winning' side of FW for the free tax breaks, essentially making a one sided contest even worse. If anything there should be a (real world unrealistic, but hey) motive to join the losing FW side, to act as a balancing force and preventing the whole thing from becoming boring.
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Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
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Posted - 2009.09.28 15:24:00 -
[367]
i think this taxe its very bad idea for move player to 0.0 location. why the high sec play stay in empire ? many case:
- MMo its massive multi player online not massive agregated in single ore more organisation - Some player dont want to pay any racket for play in 0.0 - Some player play RP empire - Some player want to do business not follow damned rule (nobody buy/sell outside our alliance) => dramatic economic in 0.0 -Lot of player are casual player who has not time to spend in perpertual war (risk to be ban ouside 0.0 corporation...) - Neutral are primary target in 0.0 i think Nbsi and other damned ruels are kill the 0.0 space and try to move casual player ouside high sec & /or npc corporation dont change anything for the state of 0.0 .
the invulnerability of war its just a prevention for Privateer Alliance troubleshooting (eg past trouble )
so the risk is : - lot of creation of tiny corporation like mine ( me and my alt ) and CCP surely will nerf the minimun member corporation in future (crisie situation)
i'm not in npc corporation so taxe dont affect me but
my grief :
-when i buy Eve game 6 year ago i dont saw in box that eve are only PVP game so the game looks like more and more "CS online" for hardcore gamer (9% of Eve player Cf Last QEN ) I had hope that CCP develops the contents of the background so when do you develope Content for 91% of other player dear GM ?
my wishs :
For my part I shall have preferred that CCP develops some contents connected to corporations Npc with a strong link with corporations Players which can be compatible with Factional Warefare. Indeed at present farm mission of a player / corporation has only weak incidence on the life of the corporation and that of Npc and more or less on the global economy of eve
- Setting a new Dynamical Economy : Fluctuation in the parameters of corporation npc (wallet / share / order market reward and bonus) with mission (soloing or corporation) for a corporation npc we shall participate its good health and modify the parameters above but have have negative impact on corporation npc " competitor " the whole there impacting on the faction of the empire and in the final the fleets Npc of the factional
Furthermore I shall have like that CCP attacks the passive of npc farm :
That they set up fleets roaming of npc which intervene further to the aggression of their officers and which attack by measures increased in the installations of corporations players iinvolved in these attacks (npc with capital ship why not) One could also envisage raids of fleet of pirate npc on station of the empire. and why not sleeper attack ;)
i think with this change and other like random effect environnemental ,cyclic random change in repartition in raw moon will increase our Eve experience
You will say to me surely that it will distort games for multiple reason, but at the moment I prefere this dream of a less static contents. We still have the right(law) of dreamed, POST OFFICE ACCOUNT has not put a tax on the dream yet ;)
An Angry old Player (customer) whose spot other Space opera game mmo like Star & other Star game ...
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Jesum
Amarr Warmongers
|
Posted - 2009.09.28 21:41:00 -
[368]
Originally by: Verone
I disagree with the concept of applying this from the outset.
However, TQ should watch a player's time in NPC corps, and when the cumulative time reaches 90 days, the corp tax should start to be applied at 50% tbh.
So for instance if a rookie creates a character in the Federal Navy Academy, he has 90 days to make his first ISK and look for a player corporation. After that he starts to get taxed by [FNA] at 50%.
If he then joins a player corp, their tax applies as set by the CEO. If he leaves, one of the following two situations occurs.
If his time in NPC corporations is <90 days, the clock keeps ticking, so if he initially spent 40 days in an NPC corp before being employed then he has 50 days before the NPC corporation he's placed in upon leaving (I believe FNA starter end up in The Scope) starts to tax him at the rate of 50%.
If his time in NPC corporations is >90 days, he begins to get taxed at 50% immediately on leaving the player corporation.
Would sort out the issue of people being "immune" in high sec by hiding in NPC corps.
+1 ____________ -Jesum♥ |
Shana Matika
|
Posted - 2009.09.29 15:04:00 -
[369]
See what happens: Create new char. Create corp. Put main in that. Play...wardec (onoes)...create new corp, move misson char...play...what do you think how long a mission runner can play that and who get bored first: Those who pay for a wardec on a 1 man corp where that 1man is just a rookie on a trial or altaccount and get deleted once the corp got one wardec to create new char and corp or the missionrunner who got 24h to change corp before fights can start... But nice try ;)
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Dianabolic
Reikoku
|
Posted - 2009.09.29 15:24:00 -
[370]
Originally by: Shana Matika See what happens: Create new char. Create corp. Put main in that. Play...wardec (onoes)...create new corp, move misson char...play...what do you think how long a mission runner can play that and who get bored first: Those who pay for a wardec on a 1 man corp where that 1man is just a rookie on a trial or altaccount and get deleted once the corp got one wardec to create new char and corp or the missionrunner who got 24h to change corp before fights can start... But nice try ;)
That's corp hopping to avoid a war-dec and is already classed as an exploit.
But nice try.
|
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Kachiko Sama
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.09.29 17:35:00 -
[371]
Originally by: Dianabolic
That's corp hopping to avoid a war-dec and is already classed as an exploit.
But nice try.
Has anyone ever ever been sanctioned for that? It's almost completely unenforceable (like several other offences).
|
Dianabolic
Reikoku
|
Posted - 2009.09.29 17:36:00 -
[372]
Originally by: Kachiko Sama
Originally by: Dianabolic
That's corp hopping to avoid a war-dec and is already classed as an exploit.
But nice try.
Has anyone ever ever been sanctioned for that? It's almost completely unenforceable (like several other offences).
I don't know, however in the scenario posted above I'd expect to see it be petitioned and then the gm's hand out warnings / bans because it isn't THAT difficult to spot, is it?
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Shana Matika
|
Posted - 2009.09.30 07:59:00 -
[373]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Kachiko Sama
Originally by: Dianabolic
That's corp hopping to avoid a war-dec and is already classed as an exploit.
But nice try.
Has anyone ever ever been sanctioned for that? It's almost completely unenforceable (like several other offences).
I don't know, however in the scenario posted above I'd expect to see it be petitioned and then the gm's hand out warnings / bans because it isn't THAT difficult to spot, is it?
It's my choice which corp i use. All missionrunners know enough people to join their corp. I don't see any "exploit" in that. If i want to change corp that's my choice. Just to anoy those "YOu don't play that game i want YOU to play so i wardec you" crowd it's worth it.
|
Okonaa
|
Posted - 2009.09.30 13:31:00 -
[374]
Originally by: Jdestars i think this taxe its very bad idea for move player to 0.0 location. why the high sec play stay in empire ? many case:
- MMo its massive multi player online not massive agregated in single ore more organisation - Some player dont want to pay any racket for play in 0.0 - Some player play RP empire - Some player want to do business not follow damned rule (nobody buy/sell outside our alliance) => dramatic economic in 0.0 -Lot of player are casual player who has not time to spend in perpertual war (risk to be ban ouside 0.0 corporation...) - Neutral are primary target in 0.0 i think Nbsi and other damned ruels are kill the 0.0 space and try to move casual player ouside high sec & /or npc corporation dont change anything for the state of 0.0 .
the invulnerability of war its just a prevention for Privateer Alliance troubleshooting (eg past trouble )
so the risk is : - lot of creation of tiny corporation like mine ( me and my alt ) and CCP surely will nerf the minimun member corporation in future (crisie situation)
i'm not in npc corporation so taxe dont affect me but
my grief :
-when i buy Eve game 6 year ago i dont saw in box that eve are only PVP game so the game looks like more and more "CS online" for hardcore gamer (9% of Eve player Cf Last QEN ) I had hope that CCP develops the contents of the background so when do you develope Content for 91% of other player dear GM ?
my wishs :
For my part I shall have preferred that CCP develops some contents connected to corporations Npc with a strong link with corporations Players which can be compatible with Factional Warefare. Indeed at present farm mission of a player / corporation has only weak incidence on the life of the corporation and that of Npc and more or less on the global economy of eve
- Setting a new Dynamical Economy : Fluctuation in the parameters of corporation npc (wallet / share / order market reward and bonus) with mission (soloing or corporation) for a corporation npc we shall participate its good health and modify the parameters above but have have negative impact on corporation npc " competitor " the whole there impacting on the faction of the empire and in the final the fleets Npc of the factional
Furthermore I shall have like that CCP attacks the passive of npc farm :
That they set up fleets roaming of npc which intervene further to the aggression of their officers and which attack by measures increased in the installations of corporations players iinvolved in these attacks (npc with capital ship why not) One could also envisage raids of fleet of pirate npc on station of the empire. and why not sleeper attack ;)
i think with this change and other like random effect environnemental ,cyclic random change in repartition in raw moon will increase our Eve experience
You will say to me surely that it will distort games for multiple reason, but at the moment I prefere this dream of a less static contents. We still have the right(law) of dreamed, POST OFFICE ACCOUNT has not put a tax on the dream yet ;)
An Angry old Player (customer) whose spot other Space opera game mmo like Star & other Star game ...
google translator?
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Dianabolic
Reikoku IT Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.09.30 15:01:00 -
[375]
Originally by: Shana Matika
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Kachiko Sama
Originally by: Dianabolic
That's corp hopping to avoid a war-dec and is already classed as an exploit.
But nice try.
Has anyone ever ever been sanctioned for that? It's almost completely unenforceable (like several other offences).
I don't know, however in the scenario posted above I'd expect to see it be petitioned and then the gm's hand out warnings / bans because it isn't THAT difficult to spot, is it?
It's my choice which corp i use. All missionrunners know enough people to join their corp. I don't see any "exploit" in that. If i want to change corp that's my choice. Just to anoy those "YOu don't play that game i want YOU to play so i wardec you" crowd it's worth it.
You said you would use an alt to create a corp, then jump to it.
Not join other corps that are already running.
There's a difference, no?
|
Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.09.30 16:41:00 -
[376]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Shana Matika See what happens: Create new char. Create corp. Put main in that. Play...wardec (onoes)...create new corp, move misson char...play...what do you think how long a mission runner can play that and who get bored first: Those who pay for a wardec on a 1 man corp where that 1man is just a rookie on a trial or altaccount and get deleted once the corp got one wardec to create new char and corp or the missionrunner who got 24h to change corp before fights can start... But nice try ;)
That's corp hopping to avoid a war-dec and is already classed as an exploit.
But nice try.
Not sanctioned.
Quote:
Hello,
For #1, Closing a corporation and opening a new one with the same members is allowed, and the people who declared war on your now closed corporation can declare a new war on your new corporation if they choose to do so.
For #2, Using alt corps to increase the cost of wars against your corporation or alliance is prohibited.
To help clarify this, there are restrictions with regards to joining and leaving corporation, such as mentioned here: http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2317&tid=1
it is here.
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Dianabolic
Reikoku IT Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.09.30 20:40:00 -
[377]
I stand corrected.
I'll also say that's pretty f'in stupid, but oh well.
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scotty spacemaster
|
Posted - 2009.10.01 12:02:00 -
[378]
I have a feeling that CCP has turned a blind eye to corp hopping because they realize that the whole wardec mechanic is broken and this is an easy way for players to bypass it. Thus allowing them to ignore the problem.
I mean why should a corp have the right to "bribe" concord to ignore corps at war while concord can't be bribed to ignore the orginal bribe? Fix the wardec system and the corp hopping mechanic in one fell swoop.
Another wardec mechanic that needs to be fixed is wardec'ing player corps in faction warfare. Since these FW corps are not in a true alliance, they can be wardec'd by any corp/alliance for the grand total of 3-4 mil per week. And if the wardec'd FW corp wants to assemble a group of FW corps to fight back against the alliance, each corp gets to pay the standard alliance wardec fee's of 50+ million per week. And that number can go alot higher depending on the number of FW corps wardec'ing.
Inequality?
How do you fix it? One idea is to change the fee's required to wardec that alliance to standard corp fee's (3 or 4 mil per week) per FW corp wardec'ing. Their alliance veil is basically taken down since they are taking advantage of the inabiity of a FW corp to join a true FW alliance who can pool their resources and fight back as a group of corps.
Another idea is to lump the FW corps into a quasi-alliance and they pay the sum of 50+ million per week to wardec that alliance.
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scotty spacemaster
|
Posted - 2009.10.01 12:30:00 -
[379]
And fix the rules of engagement with respect to neutrals assisting wartargets.
If a neutral wants to assist in a war, then join the wardec'd corp, else stay away.
This mechanic has been exploited to the nth degree and needs to stop.
I realize that this is a difficult problem since a neutral may want to assist a wardec'd player in non-war circumstances. Such as remote repping a friend in a mission, etc.
One possible solution is to GCC flag any neutral that is on grid and assisting a wardec'd player during an actual wardec fight. Similar to the treatment of players remote repping rats (which they basically are). This will still allow assisting in non-wardec situations.
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Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
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Posted - 2009.10.02 12:02:00 -
[380]
not really , bit of automatic translation ;)
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Svartak
|
Posted - 2009.10.05 13:33:00 -
[381]
As a new player (21 days, just reached the 1.6M SP) i will wait to see what i think of this change.
So far my experience is: - very few corps seems to want me unless i have more more skills - most corps only want me for one specific role - most corps would want me online for more than the 1 hour 4 days a week that i can afford (i do have a pretty demanding job) - I do like the experience of missioning so far in terms of time spend/fun had - in other games i could not understand why high level players had such a great need to "kill" very low level players. In EVE-terms i simply can't understand what a player in a BS thinks he has to prove killing a newby in a bantam in hi-sec? I really dislike griefers both in game and in RL.
And in all games i played so far i had more long-term enjoyment in accomplishing goals or helping others accomplish their goals then in racking up kill-scores.
So even though I like the sense of long-term play that EVE offers: when CCP pushes me into a (PvP) play-style i dont't want I will quit playing and find another game.
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Mythical Unicorn
|
Posted - 2009.10.10 13:39:00 -
[382]
The 11% tax has allowed Concord to put up micro cameras across High sec space.
Thiefing from cans will now carry a security hit, in addition all items taken from can will be tagged as stolen goods, and cannot be traded on the open market. Contracts with stolen items will be appropriately marked, and will also contain a security penalty for people buying from thieves.
Repeat offenders will find that security penalties will get progressively worse and will eventually find themselves forced out of civilized space at gunpoint. This new heightened security will also increase the WTFConcorded response time. Ganksters will find that since Concord can now afford attorney fees, podding will become the standard of dealing with undesirables flouting the law.
Another surprise was the announcement that all Concord forces will be upgrade to Tech II ships. In an effort to contain costs the new ships will be purchased from the open market, and existing T1 ships will be resold on the market.
Now there's an announcement I would like to see as a follow up.
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Kaya Divine
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2009.10.10 18:52:00 -
[383]
I hope that CCP Soundwave and you guys who are so eager for this change will be happy to wake up and see all prices going up by 11%. You can increase tax by 99% for all that I care...now imagine all prices going up for 99%. It will be fun, but not for you.
Shoot your shot... |
HeliosGal
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 04:37:00 -
[384]
the 11% is encouragement to move to low sec and 00 by reducing the reward aspect of high sec.
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Rip Minner
Gallente Freewind Ventures
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 05:43:00 -
[385]
Edited by: Rip Minner on 12/10/2009 05:44:08
Originally by: HeliosGal the 11% is encouragement to move to low sec and 00 by reducing the reward aspect of high sec.
It's no kind of encouragement realy. Theres lots of high sec corps and players will baned together making alot of 1 man corps and when they nerf that they make alot of Min number of high sec corps with zero tax and put one little finger on each hand up at ccp.
Bottem line is you cant force players that dont wish to go lowsec 0.0 to play your pvp game. Becouse they play for a differnt reason. Remove that reason you remove thoughs players and that cash from thoughs players. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |
HeliosGal
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 05:46:00 -
[386]
thats still a very good point, u need to encourage them out more high sec to low sec and 00 wormholes would be a good start more 00 space would be a better idea.
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Rip Minner
Gallente Freewind Ventures
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 05:49:00 -
[387]
Originally by: Mythical Unicorn The 11% tax has allowed Concord to put up micro cameras across High sec space.
Thiefing from cans will now carry a security hit, in addition all items taken from can will be tagged as stolen goods, and cannot be traded on the open market. Contracts with stolen items will be appropriately marked, and will also contain a security penalty for people buying from thieves.
Repeat offenders will find that security penalties will get progressively worse and will eventually find themselves forced out of civilized space at gunpoint. This new heightened security will also increase the WTFConcorded response time. Ganksters will find that since Concord can now afford attorney fees, podding will become the standard of dealing with undesirables flouting the law.
Another surprise was the announcement that all Concord forces will be upgrade to Tech II ships. In an effort to contain costs the new ships will be purchased from the open market, and existing T1 ships will be resold on the market.
Now there's an announcement I would like to see as a follow up.
That would be worth paying the tax for lmao Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |
Rip Minner
Gallente Freewind Ventures
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 05:55:00 -
[388]
Edited by: Rip Minner on 12/10/2009 05:56:47
Originally by: HeliosGal thats still a very good point, u need to encourage them out more high sec to low sec and 00 wormholes would be a good start more 00 space would be a better idea.
low= pvp 0.0=pvp wormhole=pvp sometimes. Thats why you get more care bears in wormhole space then in low sec and never in 0.0.
people that dont like to pvp say away from pvp. Its that easy.
There are thoughs people that you cant get out of low sec or 0.0 becouse they love pvp it go's both ways. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |
HeliosGal
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 05:57:00 -
[389]
good point but the rewards from wormhole space are massive so they really dont worry about loosing the odd ship when u can make 60m+ an hour from the activities there then its better than 9m in low sec and 30m from 00
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Rip Minner
Gallente Freewind Ventures
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 06:02:00 -
[390]
Originally by: HeliosGal good point but the rewards from wormhole space are massive so they really dont worry about loosing the odd ship when u can make 60m+ an hour from the activities there then its better than 9m in low sec and 30m from 00
quoted for great truth thats why I say pvp sometimes :) And its a gamble. As you can go for days at a time with no one coming into your hole. As you showed you cant do much with a standered 9m-30m. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |
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Rip Minner
Gallente Freewind Ventures
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 06:08:00 -
[391]
Edited by: Rip Minner on 12/10/2009 06:08:44 As a sidenote you want to get more carebear mission runners back into low sec and I do say back into low sec. It's easy remove scaning down low sec missions again.
Thats right all you low sec pirits cryed and cryed for the right to scan down low sec missions you were not happy ransoming us at the gates were you now what:) Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |
HeliosGal
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 06:15:00 -
[392]
its a good point i do find regular pvp in wormholes but u have to go to the trouble of scnaning the target. Heck ive even gotten stuck 3 times in 4 months but the profits from pvp alone outweigh the losses, and if u find a good wh to 00 u can get lucky surpriseing haulers and whatnot moving around behind enemy lines thinking its safe. So small scale or solo hit and run thro shortcuts. Realy depends if u roam from empire or low sec or actually live inside the holes and venture out as random luck shines upon you
There are those to that take battleships and simply roam collapsing holes and then trying to catch targets unaware thro their newly spawned hole
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Rip Minner
Gallente Freewind Ventures
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 06:32:00 -
[393]
Edited by: Rip Minner on 12/10/2009 06:34:06 Edited by: Rip Minner on 12/10/2009 06:32:57 That is true and a very good use for pvp players but carebear players do there best to watch there scaner and run and sit inside there pos hopeing its just to much troble for what ever pvper happends along in there system at the time :)
Edit: Yes I am one of them :) I am no pvper :)
Edit: Though I have offten times wondered how many times I have goten blowen up buy a ship/weapon/mod or ammo I have built :) Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |
HeliosGal
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 06:54:00 -
[394]
well i consider myself a pver who chases pvp when targets presetn themselves. It does help with killboard contributions and blowing stuff up is an isk sink
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Kyle7000
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 10:22:00 -
[395]
Argh, why the **** would you do this? Why the HELL would rasing the tax to 50% benefit anybody? I'm not even in a noob corp, but I don't get the point of peoples whining about NPC corps.
Failure.
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HeliosGal
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 10:45:00 -
[396]
50% is excessive. I think 11% was chosen as standard corp tax and also as a tax sink
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.10.12 11:19:00 -
[397]
make the tax 11%, or 50%, or even 99%- it doesnt matter at all. If you dont want to pay it you wont- ppl are going to form one man corps in droves after dominion. Anyone that wants to can avoid every war dek presented to them already- and dominion wont stop that. In fact dominion will just encourage corp hopping.
Now if you want to attract ppl to low sec or even null sec- there are ways to do this. A tax on npc corps is not one of those ways.
Your stuff iz mine through actions |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 12:47:00 -
[398]
Originally by: Future Mutant make the tax 11%, or 50%, or even 99%- it doesnt matter at all. If you dont want to pay it you wont- ppl are going to form one man corps in droves after dominion. Anyone that wants to can avoid every war dek presented to them already- and dominion wont stop that. In fact dominion will just encourage corp hopping.
Now if you want to attract ppl to low sec or even null sec- there are ways to do this. A tax on npc corps is not one of those ways.
You're considering the 11% tax in isolation. What if CCP followed it up with a 3-5% transaction tax on hi-sec market trades...?
The Dominion sov changes are the carrot; hi-sec taxes will be the stick.
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Nabiah
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 13:28:00 -
[399]
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Edited by: CCP Eris Discordia on 19/09/2009 13:22:14 It's not in the sisi patch notes because I don't know how to edit them, I think I have to mail them to someone who has access to it and then it is edited in. This hsn't been properly set up yet but for the next sisi update I think there will be more and more accurate notes ( at least from me)
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis
Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.
Why would CCP want to encourage people to join player Corps in first place ? to increase wardecable corps ?
Do you (CCP) mind if i play the game the way I WANT TO ? cause IM F****ing PAYING. If half of the server cries for targets let them shoot themselves in a big orgy of explosions.
Unless NPC corps are going on a ship Replacement program, which would be awesome, i dont want to know about Wardecs or faction war.
Here, the moment my corp gets wardeced ill just quit and go for another corp. Whats CCP gonna do about that ? consequence is a lot of players not creating bonds with other players cause they are forced to quit corps to early.
At the extreme and smartest solution it would become possible to wardec single players as long as they belong to NPC corps.Making them go for Player corps eventually. Hows that ?
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Caldor Mansi
|
Posted - 2009.10.12 13:54:00 -
[400]
Originally by: Malcanis
You're considering the 11% tax in isolation. What if CCP followed it up with a 3-5% transaction tax on hi-sec market trades...?
The Dominion sov changes are the carrot; hi-sec taxes will be the stick.
There are no carrots in Dominion, only sticks and a lot of them.
0.0 is vastly empty now not because it is difficult to access but because there is no reason to go there apart from PVP opportunity. If there is a reason, it is the moons and cap/super cap production. Moons are getting nerfed and no one reasonable will rent their space to support competition for their industry business
The idea behind the expansion is to provide better area for 0.0 ratting/mining and that is just laughable. There is nothing done to make 0.0 more attractive. CCP just nerfes passive income and tells you to grind instead.
|
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.10.12 19:38:00 -
[401]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Future Mutant make the tax 11%, or 50%, or even 99%- it doesnt matter at all. If you dont want to pay it you wont- ppl are going to form one man corps in droves after dominion. Anyone that wants to can avoid every war dek presented to them already- and dominion wont stop that. In fact dominion will just encourage corp hopping.
Now if you want to attract ppl to low sec or even null sec- there are ways to do this. A tax on npc corps is not one of those ways.
You're considering the 11% tax in isolation. What if CCP followed it up with a 3-5% transaction tax on hi-sec market trades...?
The Dominion sov changes are the carrot; hi-sec taxes will be the stick.
A transaction tax> i assume you mean some sort of sales tax because a tax that the seller would pay would just get passed along.
Look its simple- make it impossible to play the game how i want and i wont play the game anymore. This is just common sense tbh- if its no longer fun why bother.
Your stuff iz mine through actions |
Rachel Voegel
|
Posted - 2009.10.19 13:06:00 -
[402]
Most player corps have a 10% tax too, so why would this make me switch?
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HeliosGal
|
Posted - 2009.10.19 13:27:00 -
[403]
its really jsut designed to suck some of hte isk out of high sec npc corp activities. If youre a trader its nothing its only really if u run missions and kill NPCs
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Qing Jao
Caldari Salvation Army.
|
Posted - 2009.10.20 05:18:00 -
[404]
Edited by: Qing Jao on 20/10/2009 05:25:08 To my point of view
All this is going to do is make people who want to do nothing but run missions create there own corp with a 0% tax rate and just continue on with that there doing. takes 3 mins or so for corporation management lvl 1
gonna add some more to this.
were trying to get people more interested in player corps n stuff which is good and i do agree with that because theres a big player base that just sits in NPC corps but honestly I think this is just gonna cause the problem of having a bunch of 1-2 3 or even 4 member corporations which isnt rly doing anything. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salvation Army. - Doing The Most Good |
Rachel Voegel
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 08:43:00 -
[405]
Edited by: Rachel Voegel on 22/10/2009 08:42:45
As it happens I have taken CCP's wishes to heart and joined a small corp.
Yet I still remain unconvinced that the tax will motivate many people.
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Kaya Divine
Gallente The Scope
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 13:36:00 -
[406]
So instead having a corp chat with 300+ players, CCP will force us to make 1 player corp and be social? How will that work?
Shoot your shot... |
Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
|
Posted - 2009.10.22 23:39:00 -
[407]
To talk, join your language channel or L4s channel, or just spam Ship trade like some. Nubs in nubcorp can rot helpless and clueless in their new hell and quit in frustration the way CCP wants.
Taxes are stupid, only cover narrow niche, are inconsistent (you pay tax only from some rats, not from others). The CCP solution to stupidity is to spread it so we get insensitive to it.
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ServantOfMask
Minmatar Eye Bee Em
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Posted - 2009.10.23 00:27:00 -
[408]
pages and pages of whining about a 3.4% tax on a single line of income of a single profession...
CCP change the tax system to justify these whines please!
make taxes apply to ALL positive wallet transactions of NPC corp members. that includes market sales, contract sales, character transactions, bounties (player and NPC) and mission rewards.
and you know what?
just because i feel like a **** I'm all for charging someone that doesn't not participate in any of the above the average taxes paid by their NPC corp members in the last month as a war dec protection fee.
NOW your tears are warranted!
and I'm still considering if 25% isn't a better figure, you guys are truly lucky i am not running the tax initiative. "Misina Arlath
GIRL = Guy In Real Life MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls." |
Asuri Kinnes
Caldari The Bastards The Bastards.
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Posted - 2009.10.23 11:30:00 -
[409]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Future Mutant make the tax 11%, or 50%, or even 99%- it doesnt matter at all. If you dont want to pay it you wont- ppl are going to form one man corps in droves after dominion. Anyone that wants to can avoid every war dek presented to them already- and dominion wont stop that. In fact dominion will just encourage corp hopping.
Now if you want to attract ppl to low sec or even null sec- there are ways to do this. A tax on npc corps is not one of those ways.
You're considering the 11% tax in isolation. What if CCP followed it up with a 3-5% transaction tax on hi-sec market trades...?
The Dominion sov changes are the carrot; hi-sec taxes will be the stick.
Dominion Sov Changes a carrot? Big alliances will just split into smaller related corp-level space holding entities and newer/smaller groups trying to get from Empire into 0.0 will still be locked out.
Nothing is going to change Alliance level paranoia about spies, infiltration and the problems with bringing *newer* players up to speed in 0.0.
I am still of the opinion that this change (like the entire "EXODUS" expansion) is not going to accomplish what CCP wants... Of course, an 11% NPC corp tax is a fairly easy "fix" (and I use that term *very* loosely) because it only requires a single data entry - not any of that tedious "coding"...
There is a lot more to the game than just 0.0.....
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Elder Man
Gallente ATRISC
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Posted - 2009.11.01 18:59:00 -
[410]
Edited by: Elder Man on 01/11/2009 19:02:37
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Edited by: CCP Eris Discordia on 19/09/2009 13:22:14 It's not in the sisi patch notes because I don't know how to edit them, I think I have to mail them to someone who has access to it and then it is edited in. This hsn't been properly set up yet but for the next sisi update I think there will be more and more accurate notes ( at least from me)
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis
Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.
Not sure what difference it's going to make, tax is tax, no matter who you pay. CCP isn't the brightest birds on the fence, hope it works out for them. Elder Man |
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Rraka
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.12.02 01:00:00 -
[411]
So some people hate those up in empire that are "safe" and others despise the griefers down in low to null security space. Meh to you all.
11% as has been stated isn't a big deal the logic that CCP is stating as being the driving force behind it in that i.e. you get services and you need to pay for them is weak and suspect but again meh. The stated goal is encourage people to think about moving to a player corporation and a 11% tax rate is about right to accomplish that. Lower and they won't think about and too high then they will move to loop hole corps to get around it.
Personally, I play when I can but due to work and having a wife and children it is a bit limited and most player corps find that I am not reliable enough for their tastes. "Sorry you just got blown up but the kid just threw up on the sofa and I have to go." Of course the response is that if I don't have the time to play the game right then I shouldn't play it. Meh.
I log on, I mine, I trade, I run a mission or two and I chat and I enjoy my time and my friends and a small tax rate isn't going to change that so meh again. If though you feel I am still not motivated enough to play your game the way you want me to play and you decide to continue to raise the tax rate to further "ecourage" me then I will have to see what happens and if the game is still fun. If not then meh and I will move on. You won't miss me and but I'm sure that I will find some other place where I a welcome. Meh.
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xarjin
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.12.02 11:38:00 -
[412]
Originally by: Nabiah
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia Edited by: CCP Eris Discordia on 19/09/2009 13:22:14 It's not in the sisi patch notes because I don't know how to edit them, I think I have to mail them to someone who has access to it and then it is edited in. This hsn't been properly set up yet but for the next sisi update I think there will be more and more accurate notes ( at least from me)
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis
Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.
Why would CCP want to encourage people to join player Corps in first place ? to increase wardecable corps ?
Do you (CCP) mind if i play the game the way I WANT TO ? cause IM F****ing PAYING. If half of the server cries for targets let them shoot themselves in a big orgy of explosions.
Unless NPC corps are going on a ship Replacement program, which would be awesome, i dont want to know about Wardecs or faction war.
Here, the moment my corp gets wardeced ill just quit and go for another corp. Whats CCP gonna do about that ? consequence is a lot of players not creating bonds with other players cause they are forced to quit corps to early.
At the extreme and smartest solution it would become possible to wardec single players as long as they belong to NPC corps.Making them go for Player corps eventually. Hows that ?
The day I can be wardec'd i will likely cancel both of my subscriptions. unbalanced pvp doesn't interest me whatsoever. NPC corps suit mine and many part time players passive interest in eve and not being robbed by roving gank squads is just how part time players survive and still stay interested.
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Konarr
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Posted - 2009.12.07 08:53:00 -
[413]
If CCP wants me to join a player corp I am happy to do so if they create a non-combatent designation. The tax is supposed to make the game more realistic with the workings of real life infrastructure and public services. I can honestly say though that I have never seen a police officer allow a bully to beat up on someone simply because the bully declared they were going to do so a day in advance.
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Tomarix Vindigo
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Posted - 2009.12.07 10:12:00 -
[414]
I really don't see the point in all this. Create a corp, play on. If you are wardec'ed and don't want to fight, join a NPC corp (even with 100% tax) until the wardeccers loose interest. Use an alt who does not play as the CEO for the time it takes. Then join your corp again.
Whatever it is CCP is trying to accomplish with these taxes, it won't work just by some taxes on parts of you ingame income. |
Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.12.07 11:57:00 -
[415]
NPC corp tax helps as at least SOME peopel will try normal corps due to them... maybe 1 in 10. And if 1 in 10 of the ones that try stay in normal corps instead of going back to npc ones. Its worth. Because those are real eve players... and therefore more important than the other 99 that stayed in NPC corps to avoid all risks.
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Konarr
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Posted - 2009.12.08 08:15:00 -
[416]
Originally by: Seishi Maru NPC corp tax helps as at least SOME peopel will try normal corps due to them... maybe 1 in 10. And if 1 in 10 of the ones that try stay in normal corps instead of going back to npc ones. Its worth. Because those are real eve players... and therefore more important than the other 99 that stayed in NPC corps to avoid all risks.
Lets be clear, NPC corp players do not always want to avoid all risk, but it should be ok to take risk only when you are prepared to do so. I have ventured into low sec a few times but I did so knowing I did not have Concord protection and I did so in a vessel I could afford to loose and I did so when I was in a position to deal with recovery if things went way wrong. Wardecs remove that element of control. You can't simply choose not to participate if your corp goes to war. For the duration of the war you must either be prepared to participate in the war or just not play as mining or running freight IN EMPIRE is now a substantial risk.
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