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EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.10 11:53:00 - [2821] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Wanna see whining? Cut bounties in missions by 80% and remove all non salvage loot from them as well. Remove jump bridges/jump portals/jump freighters and kill cargo bays/corporate hangars/ship maintenance bays on carriers, moms and titans and we have a deal. In exchange i could even pass with ship bays on freighters. And this here is a prime example of what I am talking about. This is prime example of bull** you and other members of 0.0 are spewing around. "life in 0.0 is risky" "life in 0.0 is hard" "logistics in 0.0 are hard". No, they are not. They WERE hard few years ago, before freighters were introduced. Freighters helped a lot but they still needed to be escorted (risk part). Nowadays 0.0 is almost risk free, easy to get rich area of the game with ** easy logistics. Jump carrier to random system, npc/plex/whatever around, jump back to empire. Basically - no chance someone will nab you on the way. When you use POSes as landing point or jump bridges to travel it gets even easier faster. So your "example of what I am talking about" is just another typical rhetorics of most 0.0 allies that has almost no coverage in reality. You sound pretty mad about the idea of having your missions nerfed. You should take a break, go have lunch or dinner or whatever timezone you live in. Take a few deep breaths.
Deva Blackfire 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.10 11:57:00 - [2822] Originally by: EdFromHumanResources You sound pretty mad about the idea of having your missions nerfed. You should take a break, go have lunch or dinner or whatever timezone you live in. Take a few deep breaths. Another example why you have no clue and are biased towards empire corps is just above. I dont run missions in empire, the rewards are too low. Plexing = isk. But what would you know when you didnt try all isk-making ways
McDaddy Pimp Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.10 12:11:00 - [2823] It seems that the biggest concern here is that the isk/hour in 0.0 wont be much better then lvl4s to justify the upkeep of a 0.0 system. Suggestion for the isk/hour issue (military upgrade) 1. Increase rat bounties, per upgrade lvl, since increasing belt count seems impossible. 2. Increase resistance against rats type of all ships within the system/ decrease rats tank 3. Increase respawn rate of rats in belt, or even better each level of "pirate magnet" upgrade will give an extra spawn after all the rats/trigger of rats belt is kills. ie; At lvl 5, a 3 BS rat gang will spawn 5 more times instantly ones the last BS the first gang is cleared. For industrial upgrade 1. Give mining bonus to all ships in an upgraded system, like mining gang links, and these bonuses wont be stack penalized if a mining fleet is also running mindlinks 2. New cool indy bonuses for ships in the system, like increased cargo capacity, ore compression, hacking time/success rate etc Of course the bonuses could be set to apply only to corp/alliance only or based on standings* For strategic upgrades 1. Again, using the current code for ganklinks, a strategic upgrade could provide resist/hp/dmg bonus for ships in the system. Same as above, which ships that receive these bonus can will be decide by the system owners For "peaceful" type alliance. 1. System wide taxation of rat bounties. A percentage of each rat bounties will go to the system owners, and these can also be set to percentage based on standings etc. Blues pay 5%, neutral 10%, reds 20% etc. CVA wont go bankrupt and we probally will see more CVA-type alliance. CCP stated they want more empire carebear coming to 0.0, imo the only way to archive this is by making 0.0 more carebear friendly. Here are some suggestions (disclaimer, these ideas may sound a bit extrema, so maybe CCP can figure out a more toned-down version of them) 1. Bubble immunity (!) bonus to ships within system (make it an infrastructure upgrade which cost isk per day) 2. Align time bonus infrastructure upgrade 3. Warp speed bonus infrastructure upgrade 4. Warp strength bonus (max +2 maybe) infrastructure upgrade, this combined with bubble immunity, will make some 0.0 system true carebear heaven. Although tackling ships is still possible...
EdFromHumanResources Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.10 12:17:00 - [2824] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: EdFromHumanResources You sound pretty mad about the idea of having your missions nerfed. You should take a break, go have lunch or dinner or whatever timezone you live in. Take a few deep breaths. Another example why you have no clue and are biased towards empire corps is just above. I dont run missions in empire, the rewards are too low. Plexing = isk. But what would you know when you didnt try all isk-making ways Yes obviously the real flaw here is my lack of psychic powers. It's all so clear now. Hahaha
Droog 1 Black Rise Inbreds	Posted - 2009.11.10 12:26:00 - [2825] Who is running this game. CCP or Goons?
ServantOfMask Minmatar Eye Bee Em	Posted - 2009.11.10 12:27:00 - [2826] Originally by: McDaddy Pimp It seems that the biggest concern here is that the isk/hour in 0.0 wont be much better then lvl4s to justify the upkeep of a 0.0 system. for now and only with the currently unveiled upgrades. over time ccp can keep adding upgrades to make motsu isk/hr look like chump change, something most people don't consider. Originally by: McDaddy Pimp For "peaceful" type alliance. 1. System wide taxation of rat bounties. A percentage of each rat bounties will go to the system owners, and these can also be set to percentage based on standings etc. Blues pay 5%, neutral 10%, reds 20% etc. except every (NBSI) alliance will set non-blue taxes to 100%. Originally by: McDaddy Pimp CVA wont go bankrupt and we probally will see more CVA-type alliance. they shat out outposts left and right, maybe they deserve to go bankrupt. "too big to fail" sound familiar? Originally by: McDaddy Pimp CCP stated they want more empire carebear coming to 0.0, imo the only way to archive this is by making 0.0 more carebear friendly. Here are some suggestions (disclaimer, these ideas may sound a bit extrema, so maybe CCP can figure out a more toned-down version of them) 1. Bubble immunity (!) bonus to ships within system (make it an infrastructure upgrade which cost isk per day) oh, HELL NO! its bad enough that T3 cruisers can warp through bubbles but you want to extend that to all ships? overpowered, atleast T3 have to make fitting sacrifices and deal with the price tag. Originally by: McDaddy Pimp 2. Align time bonus infrastructure upgrade 3. Warp speed bonus infrastructure upgrade 4. Warp strength bonus (max +2 maybe) infrastructure upgrade, this combined with bubble immunity, will make some 0.0 system true carebear heaven. Although tackling ships is still possible... umm tackling will be IMPOSSIBLE... as it stands NO ratter in 0.0 EVER gets tackled IF he/she is watching local. even a plated bs has plenty of time to align and warp to safe then cloak before a tackler can shake jump cloak, find ratter and then align+warp, target and lay 1 point on ratter. now you want to make it so the ratter aligns faster, warps faster AND require a tackler to fit THREE points??? dude im a carebear and i think that's f-ing ******ed. the stuff i didn't quote don't have any glaring obvious issues i noticed. "Misina Arlath GIRL = Guy In Real Life MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls."
Niamota Olin	Posted - 2009.11.10 12:30:00 - [2827] Making 0.0 more attractive to empire dwellers... Possible upgrades. Empire defense arrays on gates. Concord depots. Bubble suppressors Bomb launcher blockers. Stations with L4 agents And an insta port to jita to sell your stuff. Hows that? Yes it would be pretty lame as it'd just turn 0.0 into empire space. I start to see what ccp are doing though... Say goodbye to our beloved sandbox where players get to decide what happens and welcome to the new and improved ccp playpen. Even though I love the idea of no more empty unused 0.0 so much for a space game of interstellar conquest, your local isk bank manager says NO.
Manuka	Posted - 2009.11.10 12:33:00 - [2828] Originally by: Droog 1 Who is running this game. CCP or Goons? Maybe IT are Game Designer & Programmer alts and Goons are QA & Marketing alts?
TexasWARlord North Domain Defense Forces	Posted - 2009.11.10 12:34:00 - [2829] Quote: For "peaceful" type alliance. 1. System wide taxation of rat bounties. A percentage of each rat bounties will go to the system owners, and these can also be set to percentage based on standings etc. Blues pay 5%, neutral 10%, reds 20% etc. CVA wont go bankrupt and we probally will see more CVA-type alliance. You might be onto something here McDaddy. However if they ever read this and mull it over may be another story. IF - This was incorporated into the new TREATY system (And We Have No Idea What That Will Even Be) this could work, not just for CVA but other Alliances in as much as it would encourage making treaties with people in order to not only raise the value of their system but help them pay the rent. Just a simple tax on BLUE would suffice, Nuet and RED still improve the system overall but if you didnt want to be hunted and chased out it would be wise to make a treaty with the SOV owners and it would be incentive for the owners to do it. Again this idea might take some tweaking but as I said personaly think your on the right track
ServantOfMask Minmatar Eye Bee Em	Posted - 2009.11.10 12:34:00 - [2830] Originally by: Droog 1 Who is running this game. CCP or Goons? depends on who you ask... the majority of posters in this thread, CCP "Stoffer" Soundwave, or the CSM. seriously though i don't think it's just the goons ... it's the vast majority of the playerbase that has an undue sense of entitlement running rampant. to wit: demanding CCP to answer any question a player comes up with, demanding game changes, threatening CCP financially, threatening CCP employees, the list goes on. when all i said and done CCP owns this game, "our" characters, the servers, this forum. the only thing we RENT from CCP is access to the game servers. IF 200k subs got canceled over this as some goon ranted about 90pages ago CCP would most likely reduce expansion release time to one per 2yrs and simply throw their manpower into World of Darkness and Dust. Games die.. I doubt CCP depends on our subs for their daily bread though they make a pretty penny of us. "Misina Arlath GIRL = Guy In Real Life MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls."
Itzena GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.10 12:47:00 - [2831] YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.
Kepakh	Posted - 2009.11.10 12:48:00 - [2832] Originally by: Itzena YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running. Originally by: Kepakh What effort? Jumping through gate in a shuttle? Should I be paid for that? 1 hour of jumping through 0.0 gates making me +45M? It is indeed increased risk to move around 0.0 as well as logistical challenge.
ServantOfMask Minmatar Eye Bee Em	Posted - 2009.11.10 12:52:00 - [2833] Originally by: Kepakh beating his head against the wall dude it's an enraged bee.. you can swat it with rolled up reason and spray it with common sense and it'll just keep on buzzing. "Misina Arlath GIRL = Guy In Real Life MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls."
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.10 12:58:00 - [2834] Quote: Maybe IT are Game Designer & Programmer alts and Goons are QA & Marketing alts? I am beta tester, not game designer. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Adam Ridgway Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.10 12:59:00 - [2835] Originally by: Deva Blackfire This is prime example of bull** you and other members of 0.0 are spewing around. "life in 0.0 is risky" "life in 0.0 is hard" "logistics in 0.0 are hard". No, they are not. They WERE hard few years ago, before freighters were introduced. Freighters helped a lot but they still needed to be escorted (risk part). Nowadays 0.0 is almost risk free, easy to get rich area of the game with easy logistics. Jump carrier to random system, npc/plex/whatever around, jump back to empire. Basically - no chance someone will nab you on the way. When you use POSes as landing point or jump bridges to travel it gets even easier faster. So your "example of what I am talking about" is just another typical rhetorics of most 0.0 allies that has almost no coverage in reality. EDIT: and on topic. CCP dropped down the sov costs then i guess there really is no need anymore to put 100's of players in system or even try it. Instead of fixing the amount of players per system issue so it justifies the cost you wanted lower cost. So vice versa - lower cost = no need to have many players working for the sys = we are back at status quo. Clap, clap, whole point of expansion got just screwed over. Difference is: in 0.0 you can go and ** their JB, poses, outposts, or whatever... oh wait: you won't. But then is you the one who is lazzy? No you are not, I won't be as biased as you. People recognizes there are problems: too much passive income by moon mining, too easy to conquer and hold space, too easy to plant JB's and cynojammers over the place, all this reduces risk & effort at no additional costs and helps status quo because no oen can challenge stablished powers cause they are too rich etc. This all is getting fixed by adding costs (and I think cost of JB's and cynojammers per system should be higher) and making sov a bit more easy to contest (should be even easier if you ask me). But reward is awfull for the individual. Here is a problem with plexing: is limited, if good plexes are increased reward will be reduced cause income is dependent on supply:demand of faction items. So it CAN'T compete with lvl4's, you need a fixed way of making money and which is worth it, or people will be doing business in empire and just use 0.0 as a pew pew meanigless playground.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.11.10 13:04:00 - [2836] Edited by: Tippia on 10/11/2009 13:05:07 Originally by: Kepakh What effort? Jumping through gate in a shuttle? Should I be paid for that? 1 hour of jumping through 0.0 gates making me +45M? You keep posting this as some kind of strawman retort to the most pertinent question of the thread, and I just have to ask: Do you really don't know the answer? Or is it that you don't understand the question? Or are you just trolling? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Marlona Sky D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.11.10 13:06:00 - [2837] ENOUGH! Adapt or die. It is in fact that simple. Why are goons crying the most over the new sovereignty changes?
Hertford Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.10 13:10:00 - [2838] Originally by: Kanatta Jing Same as before. Battleship rats you don't need massive faction standing to kill and Exotic Ores in abundance. Firstly, those battleship rats spawn in belts. The majority of 0.0 systems have enough belts to support 1 ratter. A lesser amount can support 2 or 3, and very very few can support more than that. Nothing in the Dominion features is changing this. Ratting is comparable to L4 missioning in terms of reward. Of course, there's more risk in 0.0 ratting than L4 missioning. So overall, there isn't much to entice empire dwellers to move and live in 0.0 in terms of ratting. Exotic ores are more common in 0.0. Arkonor, Bistot and Crokite are worth mining, as is Veldspar. However, stations are far fewer in 0.0, massively increasing logistics (hauling ore to a refinery which can't do manufacturing properly, then hauling minerals to a factory), and of course there's still the 0.0 risk in the mining and the hauling. A group of miners can empty a belt in an hour, so even then the ISK is not infinite and guaranteed. And the ISK is again comparable to L4 missioning, but with a lot more logistical effort involved. Again, not exactly a massive incentive for empire dwellers to move and live in 0.0. Don't get me wrong. I want to see 0.0 more lively, more busy, more active, and more dynamic. I want to see more players move to and live in 0.0. I'm completely in favour of shrinking alliance sov claims so that there's a greater density of population in 0.0. But as proposed, there's no carrot to get people to actually move from empire to 0.0 and join in the political, economic and military mixing pot. And that's my concern. I'm not overly worried that Goonswarm will have to squeeze into fewer systems, I'm sure we'll adapt just fine. Who is going to move into the supposed empty space that Dominion will create? I would imagine most players who want to be in 0.0 are already in 0.0. So, as I stated many pages back, either new subs or existing empire dwellers, neither of which currently appears likely, because Dominion 0.0 is not enough of an incentive.
ServantOfMask Minmatar Eye Bee Em	Posted - 2009.11.10 13:11:00 - [2839] Originally by: Marlona Sky ENOUGH! Adapt or die. It is in fact that simple. i'm with you on this, but i doubt it will end this threadnought. also it's amazing that people still expect CCP responses after 60 pages of silence and the treatment CCP soundwave and CCP chronotis received. "Misina Arlath GIRL = Guy In Real Life MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls."
ServantOfMask Minmatar Eye Bee Em	Posted - 2009.11.10 13:20:00 - [2840] Originally by: Hertford I would imagine most players who want to be in 0.0 are already in 0.0. i have to disagree here, there are tons of players interested in 0.0. the cost for sov isn't holding them back, the current alliances are... dominion won't change that one bit. wannabe nullsec alliance finds some "empty" space, plops down towers and gets annihilated for the lulz. then either wiped out or forced into virtual slave labor as meat shield pets to be reset and wiped out whenever the overlords are bored. whether the current powerblocks are all over the sov map or reduce sov to key systems won't change the fact that YOU are the biggest stick of 0.0. yes 0.0 is all about the survival of the fittest but if you won't let a weakling live today you won't have sport tomorrow. the only benefit to a small outfit post dominion is the lack of umbrella cyno jammers and MAYBE some solar systems without any towers up already. "Misina Arlath GIRL = Guy In Real Life MMORPG = Many Men Online Role Playing Girls."
Adam Ridgway Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.10 13:20:00 - [2841] Originally by: Marlona Sky ENOUGH! Adapt or die. It is in fact that simple. Because current spaceholding alliances are gonna lose all they have and die... You're clueless, the thing is, all what CCP was trying to archieve with this expansion, they will fail. Will you stop the memes and try for a second see what CCP intentions were with the patch and how they are failing? Or is your hate agaisnt big alliances so big that you won't, despite the patch as it's now will make the status quo continue.
Deva Blackfire 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.10 13:21:00 - [2842] Originally by: Adam Ridgway Difference is: in 0.0 you can go and ** their JB, poses, outposts, or whatever... oh wait: you won't. But then is you the one who is lazzy? No you are not, I won't be as biased as you. You can suicide gank in empire too ya know? And yeah i did get my share of kills on JB poses. Suicide ganking is actually tad harder, especially if you want to continue it for prolonged time (uh oh sec status, tho it can be evaded to some degree). Quote: People recognizes there are problems: too much passive income by moon mining, too easy to conquer and hold space, too easy to plant JB's and cynojammers over the place, all this reduces risk & effort at no additional costs and helps status quo because no oen can challenge stablished powers cause they are too rich etc. This all is getting fixed by adding costs (and I think cost of JB's and cynojammers per system should be higher) and making sov a bit more easy to contest (should be even easier if you ask me). Isnt this what i said somewhere earlier in the thread? Sov costs/hub costs can go down, no problem here (and they actually did). But up the jammer/bridge costs 2x so fully developed (defended) system costs around 2b. Quote: But reward is awfull for the individual. Here is a problem with plexing: is limited, if good plexes are increased reward will be reduced cause income is dependent on supply:demand of faction items. So it CAN'T compete with lvl4's, you need a fixed way of making money and which is worth it, or people will be doing business in empire and just use 0.0 as a pew pew meanigless playground. And yet even now with 'undeveloped' systems 0.0 people sit in 0.0 most of the time grinding belts/anomalies/whatever. And anomalies are fixed income. People dont bother because "someone said that anomalies are **". They arent. Granted, there are quite a few crap anomalies (for example ressuply point or w/ever its named from guristas - housing mostly BCs) but its same as with spawns or mission lottery. You can get few crap missions in a row (lol buzz kill) and few goods (blockades). I didnt run anomalies every time i found them only because i didnt really have time. And if you have 3x 8/10 + 5x 6/10 to run and 5 anomalies to compete you will always take DED plex. But when i didnt find much i actually did run anomalies and they can also give decent ISK afk way (get good tank on drake, put FOFs, jam F1 key, go afk, come back, collect loot). Also they tend to spawn commanders quite often. IMO the best way to improve system would be giving even more anomalies. Usually one anomaly can keep one person occupied for 30-60 minutes. If its permanent anomaly - you can assume it keeps one person busy. So 10 perma anomalies = 10 people served. Now i know it cant keep 100 people at once but i think everyone is missiong one point. Its 100 people during the day not 100 people at once. In reality those 10 anomalies will easily serve 50 people. Add plexes and other crap (crap as in = i dont care about it, maybe s1 else likes doing magneto/radar sites or mining) and you up it a bit again.
zacuis Great Big Research	Posted - 2009.11.10 13:29:00 - [2843] at page 95 in sure no one is gonna read this. so im not gonna say much. but frankly i think people are wrong generally in this thread the moon mineral income isnt gonna be reduced if the numbers on sisi stay the same its just that other things will be come worth more not just prom and dyspro atika seems to be quiet sure it`ll just become tech and neodyspro that replace them. i think ccp should think long and hard if they are gonna tweak that before dominion. in light of the fact they upgrades will add little to 0.0 income. perhaps they should do it once they can add agents to player stations as upgrades. i long for the days when i was drawn to 0.0 and its riches. that left with the drone regions and the hi end mineral crash. and the removal of static plexs. currently the only reason to be in 0.0 is to fight over the hi end moons and i dont think thats gonna change. ccp`s vision to move the riches back to the individual is the right idea if they want more people in 0.0 but this patch is not gonna achieve that. what a pity
Hertford Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.10 13:32:00 - [2844] Originally by: ServantOfMask i have to disagree here, there are tons of players interested in 0.0. the cost for sov isn't holding them back, the current alliances are... dominion won't change that one bit. wannabe nullsec alliance finds some "empty" space, plops down towers and gets annihilated for the lulz. then either wiped out or forced into virtual slave labor as meat shield pets to be reset and wiped out whenever the overlords are bored. whether the current powerblocks are all over the sov map or reduce sov to key systems won't change the fact that YOU are the biggest stick of 0.0. yes 0.0 is all about the survival of the fittest but if you won't let a weakling live today you won't have sport tomorrow. the only benefit to a small outfit post dominion is the lack of umbrella cyno jammers and MAYBE some solar systems without any towers up already. Thank you for, what appears to me to be, a pretty reasonable response. Now, I can agree there's currently players not in 0.0 who want to move to 0.0, and that the current powerblocs will be too powerful for the newcomers to establish themselves, and that Dominion will result in the same regions being claimed by the current crop of alliances, just in a more skeletal manner. I now ask the question that if 0.0 was more of an incentive than it currently is, would there be more players joining the "Want to Move to 0.0" camp? I would say yes. And if there's more players willing to move to 0.0, then they will have a greater strength to actually establish themselves. The bottom line still remains. 0.0 needs to be more attractive to those not currently in 0.0. Dominion does not address this.
fuze Gallente Quam Singulari Cult of War	Posted - 2009.11.10 13:33:00 - [2845] Originally by: Verone CCP is performing a MASSIVE change to game mechanics. The logic, and principle behind the change is outstanding, and all the whining about having to fuel towers and babysit 1000 control towers to keep your space, or destroy 1000 hardened control towers to take someone's space is going to be gone. The logic behind is severely flawed. New Eden started out with empire being an economically struggle for (new) players. For riches you had to go out in low-sec or even 0.0 to make serious Isk. Current intended implementation is just the complete opposite of that. To add to this from a roleplaying (lol roleplayer) perspective it makes absolutely no sense having to pay in LAWLESS space to a NON EXCISTING entity in order to have structures in place that entitles you to use that space. These new mechanics has to replace the broken mechanics of POS/SOV/MOONS that were introduced by CCP despite many 'whines' anyway. From the start the implementation of POS and Moons were flawed anyway. POS being too much of a pain to keep up and knock down. Moons for being too juicy. They should have been randomized just like the PLEX. Originally by: Verone I wouldn't be surprised if over time the rewards get better, but for now all they're doing is playing it safe to make sure that they don't totally butt** the game's economy by pouring trillions of ISK into the market because they made a bad call on the rewards for sov. Dyspro much? But seriously. The majority of 0.0 people are PvP'ers. The ones that have access to moongold have less troubles keeping up with ship losses. But the smaller alliances fully rely on missioning (lol carebear) in empire. Now they have to grind in 0.0 as well to keep up a handfull of sov systems that could be knocked down any day by a smaller group just for the lulz. This also means enforcing players into a play style they do not like. So I fully agree with Tha Bees (lol goons) and Atlas (oh hai) that the smaller alliances will get kicked in the teeth severely. And to add several people in this thread already indicated that these new mechanics aren't any incentive to venture into 0.0 to carebear (lol). Originally by:** Verone This is something so large its not gonna be fixed overnight, it'll take time to adjust and tweak and there's nothing wrong with playing it safe so the game's economy doesn't get shafted in the process. Like you said these new mechanics are massive so they will change the economy anyway. If CCP would realize that they have to be carefull not to mess up things too much they should react sooner to forementioned caveats. Create real incentives for carebears to be in 0.0 for gathering resources including moongold. (eg. deplete current moons graduately and re-introduce comets instead, lol comet magnets) Give both PvP'ers and carebears (lol) the tools to support the need of eachother. (eg. Rental contracts, access to resources etc.) My proposition would be to have the SOV costs at (nearly) same level as keep up currently deployed POS and randomize depleting havestable moons. Start iterating further on this idea and keep the original Eve outset in mind. (lol roleplayer) That would be a way more safe approach than these radical changes that are proposed. TLDR version: Eve and its sandbox model clashes with enforced grinding to try and fix a broken game mechanic.
Doc Grey	Posted - 2009.11.10 13:36:00 - [2846] In answer to the question Originally by: Itzena .....should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running. I think that at lvl 4, for the military upgrades (entrapment etc) it should be as profitable, at lvl 5, more so. The problem with this question though is that this will always depend on how many people a system can effectively support. Asking it every page isn't going to change that and so those that insist on asking it need to wise up and rephrase it to put it into a specific context. Are we talking about income from those that grind lvl 4's? Those that do them casually, those that salvage as well or those that just do them for standings as quick as possible? How many people per system are they reckoning on being in a system before it raises these kinds of income? With regards to the changes as a whole, I'm not sure that they are as game-breaking as many are suggesting. Game changing, yes, perhaps... but change isn't always bad - and the devs have already indicated that they are responsding to constructive suggestions in this thread. Still a month or so to go isn't there? How long till we have 'code-freeze'?
Hertford Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.10 13:39:00 - [2847] Originally by: fuze And to add several people in this thread already indicated that these new mechanics aren't any incentive to venture into 0.0 to carebear (lol). Which all by itself is a perfectly valid point. Want to establish yourself in the 0.0 arena of alliance pvp? Grind more PvE. The current Sov system has it's downsides. But it does boil down to a simple, pvp-centric paradigm: It's your space until someone comes along and forcibly removes your claim.
Kepakh	Posted - 2009.11.10 13:48:00 - [2848] Edited by: Kepakh on 10/11/2009 13:54:08 Originally by: Deva Blackfire IMO the best way to improve system would be giving even more anomalies. Usually one anomaly can keep one person occupied for 30-60 minutes. If its permanent anomaly - you can assume it keeps one person busy. So 10 perma anomalies = 10 people served. Now i know it cant keep 100 people at once but i think everyone is missiong one point. Its 100 people during the day not 100 people at once. In reality those 10 anomalies will easily serve 50 people. Add plexes and other crap (crap as in = i dont care about it, maybe s1 else likes doing magneto/radar sites or mining) and you up it a bit again. 1 anomaly = 23*7 accessability, that's 690 hours per month. Max upgraded system with 10 anomalies and yield of 25M per hour is 172B ISK worth. Let's assume you will utilize 1/4 at 10% tax, that is 4.3B income in taxes. Did I miss something? Do you still want better rewards for anomalies? Do you still want to have more anomalies at 1M upkeep lately proposed by Chronotis? Now imagine you run bots there...
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.11.10 13:51:00 - [2849] It is to late to change the system as a whole. So my suggestions are not the best solution in general, but only specifically good under these circumstances. THROW AWAY ALL UPGRADE INSTALLATIONS Space should upgrade itself automatically when utilized enough. Use the military/strategic/industry index which you have available to calculate the quality of space each downtime. Depending on the quality of space, reduce the range of cynofields (thus effectivly jamming the system from some point on if the range goes to zero), increase rat bounties and amount of anomalies, increase ore and mining sites. If the quality of space goes down, then reverse the good effects of course. This way you will have at least a somewhat logical and consistant sandbox effect.
Zastrow GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.10 14:12:00 - [2850] Originally by: Hendrik Stahl Originally by: Ranger 1 And FYI, being a paying customer does not make you competent in game design. Apparently neither does being a game designer boosh. +rep Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

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