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Siddy
Minmatar Evolution IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.23 11:17:00 -
[391]
this thread
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Stu Pid
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Posted - 2009.12.23 11:25:00 -
[392]
This can be fixed so easy, just remove cloakers from local and problem solved. The moment a ship cloaks he is gone from local and he cant see local.
Easy aint it
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.23 11:26:00 -
[393]
So how does that make us able to probe down afk cloakers?
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Stu Pid
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Posted - 2009.12.23 11:30:00 -
[394]
That does not change and that does not have to be changed either.
This solves the flaming of cloakers in systems and also removes intel of who and how many players are in system as cloakers cant see local either.
As further cloaking does not have to be changed more as it works like it should.
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Cobalt Sixty
Caldari Piezochem
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Posted - 2009.12.23 13:55:00 -
[395]
Originally by: Clone 231B It has no counter, and it places unwanted/needed stress on the server, screwing over everyone else who pays to play.
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T0Y
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Posted - 2009.12.23 14:37:00 -
[396]
I think Furb and the rest, should petition CCP for Concord in 0.0 systems they own.
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente Federal Defense Operations
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Posted - 2009.12.23 15:20:00 -
[397]
Problem: Knowing there is a cloaked ship in the system with you.
Result: Hard core pirates and vicious nasty killer type PvP'ers, running and hiding in fear.
Solution: Change all Local channels, regardless of System Sec, to a "Recent Speakers" display.
Result: No one will be able to tell who is in the system, unless they speak. And if they remain silent for 15min, they'll vanish again. ---
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/ |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2009.12.23 15:21:00 -
[398]
if theres an afk cloaking bomber in your main system, do whatever it is you want to do in that system but are to scared too... in another system.
SHIMPLES!
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.23 15:38:00 -
[399]
Oh brilliant, now we got people telling us we should ignore them, we should fight them by drone sweeping systems (lol) and that we s hould run to all our other upgraded systems, oh wait, we dont have many upgraded systems, no one has many.
According to you: Problem: There are people in 0.0 Solution; Lets make it as unprofitable as possible to be in 0.0.
Removing local does not make us able to scan them down. It only completely ruins income and makes lvl 4 missions a way better option.
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Marcus Gideon
Gallente Federal Defense Operations
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Posted - 2009.12.23 15:44:00 -
[400]
Plain and simple... 0.0 is dangerous space.
If you wanted safe and simple profit, then get back to High sec.
Or perhaps protect your borders better.
How did that cloaked bomber get into your space anyway? Ran a gate camp? Black Ops drop him in (how'd the cyno get in)?
Removing Local's roster won't solve the problem of having someone unknown in your territory. But it will solve the problem of your paranoia getting the best of you.
That cloaker is not forcing you to dock and hide. He is most likely hiding in orbit of a planet somewhere, while the player went to eat lunch and watch a movie.
Everyone is arguing "a counter for everything". But what's the counter for Combat Probes? Oh wait... CLOAKS. ---
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/ |
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2009.12.23 15:55:00 -
[401]
Edited by: chrisss0r on 23/12/2009 15:55:34
Originally by: Furb Killer Oh brilliant, now we got people telling us we should ignore them, we should fight them by drone sweeping systems (lol) and that we s hould run to all our other upgraded systems, oh wait, we dont have many upgraded systems, no one has many.
According to you: Problem: There are people in 0.0 Solution; Lets make it as unprofitable as possible to be in 0.0.
Removing local does not make us able to scan them down. It only completely ruins income and makes lvl 4 missions a way better option.
Dude, you fit a rat specific tank to a 0.0 ratting boat and complain you almost got killed by a bomber. Seriously grow a pair or go to highsec. Your wall of whine is just pathetic
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.23 16:37:00 -
[402]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 23/12/2009 16:37:06 Reading is hard for you apparently. It was claimed that a single bomber wasnt dangerous to a ratting ship. And basicly everyone fit rat specific tanks for ratting, for anomalies you dont have a choice.
And lol @ guy above you, have you ever actually been in 0.0? Obviously not, you may try running a 23/7/365 gatecamp which catches every cloaking ship trying to get through it. Come back after you done that.
It is impossible to keep reds out of your space by border security.
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2009.12.23 16:39:00 -
[403]
Originally by: Furb Killer And basicly everyone fit rat specific tanks for ratting
yeah the ones failing and opening epic whine threads all do
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Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2009.12.23 19:56:00 -
[404]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 23/12/2009 19:57:26
Originally by: Furb Killer And lol @ guy above you, have you ever actually been in 0.0? Obviously not, you may try running a 23/7/365 gatecamp which catches every cloaking ship trying to get through it.
DAMMIT! I hate having to agree with Furb, but it's absolutely true that you won't catch every cloaker that comes through your camp. A Lg T2 bubble and good inty pilots can help, but its no guarantee at all. Not that I'm changing my stance on AFK cloaking.
Of course, there's been a lot of back and forth, so I'll sum up said stance (again): - True AFK Cloaking is not harmful beyond obtaining intel (visually and via abusing local). This is a perfectly valid intel strategy. - Commerce Raiding/Guerrilla Warfare (CR/GW), even accomplished with "AFK" Cloaking, is a perfectly valid combat tactic for the The Few vs The Many. - CR/GW almost requires AFK Cloaking because of the abuse of local as an intel tool. "Solutions" for this include removing cloakers from local, removing local entirely (wormhole style), or booting [i]all[/] AFK people from the game.
-Liang
Ed: Sig, and clarified that getting intel from local is abusing local - for both the aggressor and the defender. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Myra2007
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.12.23 20:29:00 -
[405]
The high traffic in providence is really not a good point. Obviously its gonna be harder to tell friend from foe in such an environment but then again eve is a sandbox and thats the way you've build your castle, no?
Other alliances conduct NBSI for a reason. NRDS will both make you more vulnerable to attacks and spread your wealth around to people who do nothing to secure your space. But why should game mechanics change to accomodate for your homemade problems?
I've been to 0.0 numerous times specifically to ninja-carebear. To me it has been a success and that was without intel channels, outposts and blues. Of course if somone was going out of his way to interrupt me there wasn't much I could do - then again I was in their systems eating their resources. Why would I be allowed to do this 23/7?
Thanks to local and cloaking devices I've kept myself safe everytime and i've yet to see someone have the patience to make much of a dent in my efforts.
I've also done this in lowsec (where traffic is usually greater than in remote areas of 0.0) and maybe lost one ship in 2 years or so. I am not exactly rich but it has always been enough to buy ships and a plex or two. If you can't do it in your own home system with friends around then you must be doing something wrong.
Basically what the other guys said.
--
Originally by: Professor Slocombe
I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.23 22:13:00 -
[406]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 23/12/2009 22:14:36
Saying that 0.0 is supposed to be cold and hard while at the same time knowing fully well that a cloaked red in hostile territory is 100% safe is laughable. A cloaker can safely even go take a nap while everyone else in system maintains their defenses up waiting for an attack that may or may not come.
Why is this cold harsh universe only appling to your enemies and not yourself?
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2009.12.23 22:17:00 -
[407]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Saying that 0.0 is supposed to be cold and hard while at the same time knowing fully well that a cloaked red in hostile territory is 100% safe is laughable. A cloaker can safely even go take a nap while everyone else in system maintains their defenses up waiting for an attack that may or may not come.
Why is this cold harsh universe only appling to your enemies and not yourself?
Tell me: have you ever solo aggressed someone with 80 friends in local? Let me just say that it's generally a tense experience.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Johan Sabbat
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.12.23 22:25:00 -
[408]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 23/12/2009 22:14:36
Saying that 0.0 is supposed to be cold and hard while at the same time knowing fully well that a cloaked red in hostile territory is 100% safe is laughable. A cloaker can safely even go take a nap while everyone else in system maintains their defenses up waiting for an attack that may or may not come.
Why is this cold harsh universe only appling to your enemies and not yourself?
The cloaker took his risk travelling into system, sitting there cloaked is his reward.
Now if we did get rid of local in 0.0 then the cloaker is either going to be near a 'useful' celestial to get a kill or is going to uncloak to gather intel; both options suggest to me that there would be a counter... so lets get rid of local.
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Clone 231B
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.12.23 22:31:00 -
[409]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Saying that 0.0 is supposed to be cold and hard while at the same time knowing fully well that a cloaked red in hostile territory is 100% safe is laughable. A cloaker can safely even go take a nap while everyone else in system maintains their defenses up waiting for an attack that may or may not come.
Why is this cold harsh universe only appling to your enemies and not yourself?
Tell me: have you ever solo aggressed someone with 80 friends in local? Let me just say that it's generally a tense experience.
-Liang
You didn't answer his question, you answered a different one. Originally by: Johan Sabbat
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 23/12/2009 22:14:36
Saying that 0.0 is supposed to be cold and hard while at the same time knowing fully well that a cloaked red in hostile territory is 100% safe is laughable. A cloaker can safely even go take a nap while everyone else in system maintains their defenses up waiting for an attack that may or may not come.
Why is this cold harsh universe only appling to your enemies and not yourself?
The cloaker took his risk travelling into system, sitting there cloaked is his reward.
Now if we did get rid of local in 0.0 then the cloaker is either going to be near a 'useful' celestial to get a kill or is going to uncloak to gather intel; both options suggest to me that there would be a counter... so lets get rid of local.
What about the players who risked everything to travel to the system, to build infrastructure in the system, and to defend the system? It seems that having AFK cloakers is thier punishment for putting for 100 times more effort than the cloaker.
Oh, and local is 100% equality defined. Everyone can use it to the same effect. There is no bias there. To remove local without supplanting it with a useful intelligence gather mechanism *that does require 10 clicks per minute* would only serve to really kill any 0.0 industry.
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2009.12.23 22:36:00 -
[410]
it takes a gazillion hours of running lev 4s or ratting/plexing to faction/officer fit a marauder and still 5 bums in a raven can suicide it in 1.0.
If you only want people who leveled and played as much as you to have a chance to kick your ass: -->> wow is that way
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Johan Sabbat
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.12.23 22:38:00 -
[411]
Originally by: Clone 231B
Originally by: Johan Sabbat
The cloaker took his risk travelling into system, sitting there cloaked is his reward.
Now if we did get rid of local in 0.0 then the cloaker is either going to be near a 'useful' celestial to get a kill or is going to uncloak to gather intel; both options suggest to me that there would be a counter... so lets get rid of local.
What about the players who risked everything to travel to the system, to build infrastructure in the system, and to defend the system? It seems that having AFK cloakers is thier punishment for putting for 100 times more effort than the cloaker.
Oh, and local is 100% equality defined. Everyone can use it to the same effect. There is no bias there. To remove local without supplanting it with a useful intelligence gather mechanism *that does require 10 clicks per minute* would only serve to really kill any 0.0 industry.
The cloakers job at getting into system is as difficult as you make it... if you don't want to defend your turf then somebody will take your nice toys away from you.
It seems that local is actually more useful for the cloaker, as it will tell them when the best time to make their move is without the need to uncloak.
I have no problem with the idea of an infrastructure upgrade that gives a list of uncloaked people in system that is only useable by the system owner.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.23 22:39:00 -
[412]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Saying that 0.0 is supposed to be cold and hard while at the same time knowing fully well that a cloaked red in hostile territory is 100% safe is laughable. A cloaker can safely even go take a nap while everyone else in system maintains their defenses up waiting for an attack that may or may not come.
Why is this cold harsh universe only appling to your enemies and not yourself?
Tell me: have you ever solo aggressed someone with 80 friends in local? Let me just say that it's generally a tense experience.
-Liang
Nice evasion there. What idiot cloaker is going to engage 80+ unfriendlies at the same time?
He'll pick off targets of his own ALWAYS HAVING THE ADVANTAGE TO ENGAGE OR NOT. ALWAYS BEING SAFE. The cloaker DECIDES 100% WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, WHO, WHAT. ALWAYS. The cloaker has absolutely NO RISK to himself. PERIOD.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2009.12.23 22:42:00 -
[413]
Originally by: Clone 231B You didn't answer his question, you answered a different one.
I completely debunked his question. He asked why the cold harsh universe only applied to my enemies... but it damn sure does apply to me.
Quote:
What about the players who risked everything to travel to the system, to build infrastructure in the system, and to defend the system? It seems that having AFK cloakers is thier punishment for putting for 100 times more effort than the cloaker.
The amount of effort the defenders put in to building and defending their system simply does not matter. Eve, and life, is full of examples of thousands people putting their heart and soul into things for huge periods of time only to be torn down and destroyed with a minuscule fraction of the effort.
In Eve, we can look at BOB - a virtually unbreakable force. And what broke them? Someone logging in and getting POS roles and offlining their sov. BAM, 5 minutes of effort destroyed a thousand players' effort 3 years.
I mean really now - I'm sorry that you're so hurt that you have to defend your space from more than 500 man dread fleets, but come on now.
Quote: To remove local without supplanting it with a useful intelligence gather mechanism *that does require 10 clicks per minute* would only serve to really kill any 0.0 industry.
That is completely false and you know it. There's even prior art in that wormhole space is doing just fine completely without local.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
chrisss0r
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Posted - 2009.12.23 22:43:00 -
[414]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
He'll pick off targets of his own ALWAYS HAVING THE ADVANTAGE TO ENGAGE OR NOT. ALWAYS BEING SAFE. The cloaker DECIDES 100% WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, WHO, WHAT. ALWAYS. The cloaker has absolutely NO RISK to himself. PERIOD.
same goes for the 100 man dread fleet sitting in a pos. People acting like a sb will destroy there aliance in blink is so ridiculous
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.23 22:45:00 -
[415]
Originally by: Johan Sabbat The cloaker took his risk travelling into system, sitting there cloaked is his reward.
A hell of a reward I'd say . Get past a gatecamp and suddenly his risk is down to zero. But yeah. Let's keep talking about how 0.0 is supposed to be harsh... Except to the cloaker that is... He got past the gatecamp. He doesn't need any more risk .
And yes, I say get rid of local. I know that when all is said and done, the defender will have the slight advantage, as he should. And you won't like it. So careful with what you wish for.
Support removing local!
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2009.12.23 22:49:00 -
[416]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Nice evasion there. What idiot cloaker is going to engage 80+ unfriendlies at the same time?
One that doesn't know he's doing it. The cloaker may have the option of when to engage, but you are strictly in control of what he can engage now aren't you?
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
chrisss0r
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Posted - 2009.12.23 22:49:00 -
[417]
Edited by: chrisss0r on 23/12/2009 22:56:25 Edited by: chrisss0r on 23/12/2009 22:49:30 i bet you won't get a single kill when trying out the invincible cloaker thing. this is not for liang. :f
Well the funny thing is. I once also was an ebil afk cloaker(tm). back in the day we went to rise territory with a roaming gang. the gang got toasted and i was left alone in the rise home system with the old stealth bomber. My fit was cruise missiles, 2 damps (the old ones), a web (the old one). Wll first of all it's really not awesome to sit in a system, trapped with all your buddies roaming around and making iskies. Well i soon found it to be fun though. Stealth bombers sucked at a large margin and i could not hurt anything. Well still the were very very ****ed that i was in their system although i posed no threat at all. Wenn i saw a frigate i decloaked and the frigate burned for me to kill the evil cloaker. i damped it, the got into web range and +1 kill for me. Funny enough the only reason i got kills at all was those guys brain****ing themselves. Still it was borin as hell since all i could do was sit and wait. It really sucks when u lock into eve 3 days in a row and can't do **** because there are hacs patrolling but yaaaaay i'm invincible.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.23 22:51:00 -
[418]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 23/12/2009 22:52:50
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Nice evasion there. What idiot cloaker is going to engage 80+ unfriendlies at the same time?
One that doesn't know he's doing it. The cloaker may have the option of when to engage, but you are strictly in control of what he can engage now aren't you?
-Liang
Yes, the same way I'm in control of not losing my house to an earthquake. Because I choose not to buy one. What kind of logic is that? If the odds are against the cloaker he DOESNT HAVE TO ENGAGE. 100% safety.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Siddy
Minmatar Evolution IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.23 22:56:00 -
[419]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 23/12/2009 22:52:50
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Nice evasion there. What idiot cloaker is going to engage 80+ unfriendlies at the same time?
One that doesn't know he's doing it. The cloaker may have the option of when to engage, but you are strictly in control of what he can engage now aren't you?
-Liang
Yes, the same way I'm in control of not losing my house to an earthquake. Because I choose not to buy one. What kind of logic is that? If the odds are against the cloaker he DOESNT HAVE TO ENGAGE. 100% safety.
will it make you feel safer if i put unscannable ship in safe so you can see it there but have no clue when he deside to act? Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.23 22:57:00 -
[420]
Originally by: chrisss0r
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
He'll pick off targets of his own ALWAYS HAVING THE ADVANTAGE TO ENGAGE OR NOT. ALWAYS BEING SAFE. The cloaker DECIDES 100% WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, WHO, WHAT. ALWAYS. The cloaker has absolutely NO RISK to himself. PERIOD.
same goes for the 100 man dread fleet sitting in a pos. People acting like a sb will destroy there aliance in blink is so ridiculous
Please point to where anyone has said that an SB will destroy an alliance? That isn't the issue. But nice strawman there.
The issue is the ability of a cloaker to sit 100% safe in 0.0, you know, where it's supposed to be cold and harsh?, and pick off targets at his discretion.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
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