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Super Carriers Killing Low Sec PVP

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spiked amarr Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.04.29 07:05:00 - [241] Guilty this thread was so funny i had to share
Misanth Reaper Industries Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.04.29 07:21:00 - [242] Edited by: Misanth on 29/04/2010 07:24:50 Originally by: Tellenta The problem mostly lays in the fact that SC's have a crap ton of HP and attacking with a BS fleet usually just ends with the SC self destructing. The people in my alliance are complete kill mail ****s and have decided that making kill mails of selfdestructed SC's is unethical. So therefore when they get to kill a supercarrier they kill it utterly I barely get to play much anymore and I have watched at least 2 SC's self destruct in the past 5 months. So yes cry havoc uses heavy force to get their killmails, that SC would have died or self-destructed without CH usings their SC's anyway and that is a fact. Afaik self-destructing will create a kill/lossmail in the next expansion. But your point is valid. I've been on at least two Nyx kills recently where we purely used subcaps, and not a major blob (rather around 40ish), where the pilot selfdestruct and we get no mail. That's one reason one of Liangs links has two titans on it btw, that Hel logged off and titans was brought in to make sure it died before timer went up. I guess the fail there has to be shared between CCP and players mentality. CCP let selfdestruct happen without mail for many years, while players gave more credit to killmails than the kill itself. As mentioned, that should sort itself soon with the introduction of SD-mails. Gotta say I love how you call CH a big alliance tho Liang. Personally I feel it's perfectly sized for what it do. I've been fighting with/against both NC and the SC through the years, one thing I've done is sit in 1250man NC-fleets in my Carrier under cynojammers. To me CH is medium size and perfectly suited for what it does. I guess, some low sec dudes are smaller, maybe they should hang around in 0.4 and I stay in 0.1? But yeah, this is my personal perspective. I'm just not sure how this is any different from 10 guys sitting at a lowsec gate safe, with eyes on the other side, ganking lone players going through. shrugs* The funny part with this whole thread is, years ago, when HIC's were introduced, I was very negative about it saying people would lose skill. Instead of learning to bump/neut, they'd just hit their f1-IWIN and get real crap at this game. Guessing I was right, we'd probably been better off without HICs. Originally by: Mistress Suffering Originally by: Liang Nuren Ed: Anyone else notice how Cry Havoc is pretty much the only people defending supercarriers in low sec? Unfortunately someone linked the thread on the alliance board and it confused people into thinking they were a better representative for alliance opinion than Deja. Yeah I saw it yesterday in alliance chat. It's quite an entertaining read tho, but I guess we're going nowhere atm so I'll take my leave. See you babes in space, much love. XXX - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.29 07:23:00 - [243] Originally by: Mistress Suffering Originally by: Liang Nuren Ed: Anyone else notice how Cry Havoc is pretty much the only people defending supercarriers in low sec? Unfortunately someone linked the thread on the alliance board and it confused people into thinking they were a better representative for alliance opinion than Deja. This is my dramawhinge thread get out
Psytropic	Posted - 2010.04.29 08:54:00 - [244] another "I can't have one so I'm going to cry about it" nerf thread. Make some isk, and get your own Supercarrier or gtfo noob. Ohh I'm sorry, so new players in frigates should be able to kill carriers?? Ohh wait that was done already....
Jack Sparroxx Reaper Industries Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.04.29 09:23:00 - [245] Edited by: Jack Sparroxx on 29/04/2010 09:36:07 Edited by: Jack Sparroxx on 29/04/2010 09:23:34 This is a open forum, so every one can express their viewpoint and so they should. Just be civil about it. But that said, my viewpoints is that of my own and not of CH, and should be taken as such. SC's are in my opinion not overpowered, they are just about as spot on as they can be. Even if CCP did nerf the DPS output of the SC, it would change NOTHING at all. Every capital we have taken on in low sec would have died in ball of fire with or without SC's(and we have taking out tons of hostile caps without the use of capitals). They would just have lived a for few more seconds, that's all.. Before the buff to the SC's we killed caps using 20-30 carriers, now we use 20-25carries and 5 SC's, or what ever amount of caps we may have available at the time. Or if is some one was playing station docking games with a carrier/dread that's unkillable with sub caps, then we would just jump in a bunch a high dps dreads to dispatch the said station hugger. So in effect nothing have changed at all, just happens to be so that you get your butt spanked but a bigger and more shiny toy then you have yourself. Live with it and adapt, or die doing you old station hugging routine. Besides if you are just a bit smart about it. though it will require a bit of work on your part, avoiding getting hot dropped by a bunch of evil SC's(or normal caps for that matter) is about as easy as it can get. But I'll let that be up to your imagination on how that is done. No need to make it easy for you But if you insist on being lazy and lax when undocking your pricey toy, then we will do our best to make you pay for it.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2010.04.29 10:10:00 - [246] Originally by: Willywant Ortelling Isn't your argument that SCs are super safe in low sec etc etc nerf them. So when you link to CH killboard to us killing SCs in low sec with our own, it somehow illustrates your point? ::confused:: SUPERCAPITALS ARNT OVEPOWERD STUPID!!! JUST USE SUPERCAPITALS TO KILL THEM!!! (o)
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2010.04.29 10:11:00 - [247] yeah dropping moms left right and center is becoming tiresome in low sec, its near impossible to have a low number carrier supported battle whichout some ramdon allience with nothing to do with either of the sides fighting - and wipe out all the carriers and leave. opertunistic ganks, the problem is that somtimes a super carrier is needed to kill a station hugging carrier but you cant have that without the 5 man SC teams waiting for their cyno baiters to find somthing. we all know they are ment to be awsome at bashing caps and its nice to see them being used, but this dropping on everyone and anyone is total overkill. can we haz titan DD in low sec again plz, since we have fighter bombers i dont see why i titan shouldnt get to use its 0.0 defence/offence in the same way
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2010.04.29 10:54:00 - [248] Originally by: Dr Fighter yeah dropping moms left right and center is becoming tiresome in low sec, its near impossible to have a low number carrier supported battle whichout some ramdon allience with nothing to do with either of the sides fighting - and wipe out all the carriers and leave. opertunistic ganks, the problem is that somtimes a super carrier is needed to kill a station hugging carrier but you cant have that without the 5 man SC teams waiting for their cyno baiters to find somthing. we all know they are ment to be awsome at bashing caps and its nice to see them being used, but this dropping on everyone and anyone is total overkill. can we haz titan DD in low sec again plz, since we have fighter bombers i dont see why i titan shouldnt get to use its 0.0 defence/offence in the same way Great sentiments but as discussed above, it appears with the HP boost a lone titan DD wont cut it against a mom. It will however cut it against your carrier in low sec, when the bored/0.0 terrified titan drops in which will be insta popped So the problem is compounded. SKUNK (o)
Gandar Kimokanen Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.29 12:25:00 - [249] http://vestkant.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=5825001 expencive hotdrops are best hotdrops
Sellmewarez	Posted - 2010.04.29 12:35:00 - [250] Confirming IT is so terrible that they need to hotdrop a brutix with 2 SCs to win a fight these days
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.29 12:39:00 - [251] Originally by: Sellmewarez Confirming IT is so terrible that they need to hotdrop a brutix with 2 SCs to win a fight these days Hey, the guy had Heavy Ion Blasters fitted. Heavy! When you see that, you know playing-around-time is over! ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Sellmewarez	Posted - 2010.04.29 13:00:00 - [252] Edited by: Sellmewarez on 29/04/2010 13:00:48 Oh Heavy Ion Blasters! This changes everything. In that case sir i applaud you in taking swift and decisive action against a force that would have surely reaped havoc among the good citizens of new eden. You only had one right choice to make and by god, you made it o7o7o7
Morgs44 Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams	Posted - 2010.04.29 14:27:00 - [253] Ahh but thats 0.0 so its ok
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.04.29 14:36:00 - [254] Yes and lets make 0.3 and 0.4 space no caps at all, since we were planning random restrictions.
Kelly O'Connor Shade. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.04.29 15:33:00 - [255] Originally by: Nomad Storm Answers from the SC pilots remind me of the nano nerf for some reason. Hai Nomad o/ K :)
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.04.29 16:24:00 - [256] Originally by: Misanth Yeah I saw it yesterday in alliance chat. It's quite an entertaining read tho, but I guess we're going nowhere atm so I'll take my leave. It couldn't possibly be going nowhere because it is utterly impossible to justify supercarriers being more powerful in low sec than in 0.0, could it? -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
spiked amarr Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2010.04.29 17:34:00 - [257] Originally by: Dr Fighter can we haz titan DD in low sec again plz, since we have fighter bombers i dont see why i titan shouldnt get to use its 0.0 defence/offence in the same way I fully support this idea. Because unlike all you we will find the stupid titan pilot who decides to use it in low sec. Then we would step up set the trap and wait for him to take the bait. What we wouldn't do is run to the forums and start Crying Havoc that titans can DD in low sec and how unfair and boo hoo hoo all that jazz. There was a comment about smaller entities unable to cope with said SC hotdropping. I has an idea for them ... How about these small entities get together and form bigger entities then they can cope. If they don't then they have chosen their playstyle of being a small corp/alliance and hot drops will happen. Another thing with nerfing the damage of SC's is an ok idea but in reality if your on a station agressing we are going to kill you no matter what be it with 1 SC or due to the "Balancing nerf" of SC damage then with 3-4 SC and ofcourse dreads cuz i like to km *****. So its really only going to change 1 thing and thats the number of SC's on your km. Which i think is an awesome idea because all these solo SC's would have to find a partner and then that 2 SC's to kill And once again i would try to kill them not run to the forums Crying Havoc and say omg SC's to powerful still NERF THEEEEM! Carpe diem ppl Seize the day every time a SC hotdrops you its a shot at getting your first SC kill. And getting your first SC kill is fun.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.04.29 17:43:00 - [258] Originally by: spiked amarr Carpe diem ppl Seize the day every time a SC hotdrops you its a shot at getting your first SC kill. And getting your first SC kill is fun. Yes, Cry Havoc isn't a sov holding alliance and isn't forced to massively overwhelmingly use their own extremely large supercap+capital fleet in clever ways to kill a super cap in low sec. Yes, Cry Havoc is a low sec alliance just like all the people they're trying to preach to! Again, I mother **ing dare you to justify supercarriers being more powerful in low sec than in 0.0 -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.04.29 17:54:00 - [259] Originally by: Liang Nuren Again, I mother **ing dare you to justify supercarriers being more powerful in low sec than in 0.0 -Liang I would argue that whilst the physical stats don't change for a low sec sc the fact that there is no low sec titan dd counter to them makes them seem moar powerful because they are so hard to quickly kill without multiple dd blasts or access to a large readily available subcap force. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone! Originally by: Amarr Supremacist Yeah, it(Jaguar) almost has cruiser level tank and gank!
Hesperius Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.04.29 17:56:00 - [260] Originally by: Deja Thoris I fail to see how a restriction on where you can build it flows through to where you can use it? No, now you are taking what I said out of context. Let me see if I can do a better job at getting my point across: SC are fine being allowed in low sec empire space. The concept of them and design of them was 100% based around null sec and major alliances (again see construction restrictions). SC mechanics in low sec were a complete afterthought. Being that they are designed for major alliance warfare, bringing them into low sec is forcing low sec players into game play that many low sec players were attempting to avoid. In short, the more super carriers that show up in low sec, the more it forces low sec to behave like null sec - which removes a variety of game play styles in Eve. I believe that removing the ewar immunity super capitals have in low sec would dampen that effect greatly.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.04.29 18:00:00 - [261] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 29/04/2010 18:01:54 Here, let me try to answer for you. Deja can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong: The reason that Cry Havoc is against nerfing supercarriers in lowsec is two fold: - First, you guys use supercarriers to burn down every capital you see undock in low sec. It would require fractionally more effort to kill these carriers... but they would still die as a rule. You're a big alliance with enough cap pilots that it would happen. - Second, Supercarriers are more powerful in low sec - by virtue of the fractious political landscape, lack of outright counters, and lack of tackle options. And because of this, they are used recklessly... they're a great reckless and vulnerable beast. Really - what prey would better attract a hunter? -Liang Ed: I'm really sad that I'm making my name **** with an alliance that I truly like and respect. However, you cannot justify extremely poor game design decisions because a single alliance enjoys hunting hard to get targets. -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.04.29 18:06:00 - [262] Originally by: Zeba I would argue that whilst the physical stats don't change for a low sec sc the fact that there is no low sec titan dd counter to them makes them seem moar powerful because they are so hard to quickly kill without multiple dd blasts or access to a large readily available subcap force. This is a concept called "relative power". Supercarriers gain power compared to everything else in low sec, for a variety of reasons that I've covered repeatedly. And the thing about it is that you don't mean a large capital force... you mean a large supercapital force. Even according to Cry Havoc. This is not a reasonable requirement for low sec alliances. :) -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Asruv'ynn	Posted - 2010.04.29 20:47:00 - [263] Been following this thread for awhile and fairly interesting from both sides, but for what has been proposed thus far, I would have to be in favor of the capital pilots. I most definitely agree that the biggest contributor to the supercapital's 'advantage' in lowsec is the lack of tackle. Also could argue that the corporations and alliances that mainly operate in lowsec are far too weak to take on capital fleets which I could also agree with. However limiting the ability of the ship or discouraging it from being flown in any security space is the wrong answer. What about those pilots who played all this time and spent seemingly endless amounts of ISK to obtain and fly one of those monstrosities? It certainly didn't come to them overnight and already punishing them for it as well as future capital pilots isn't fair. Why should players be punished for operating in lowsec? Sorry to say, but those capital pilots are operating well within the rules of the game and aren't at fault. Excluding the possibility of a major alliance that can fleet ridiculous amounts of capitals at once, let's assume there are corporations and alliances that operate within the confines of lowsec and either have or will obtain capitals (obviously including supers as this thread is mainly about such). Making the ships weaker in their area of operation is unmistakingly unfair to them since other players with the same ships are already at an advantage and for the same price and training. I've seen my share of capitals in lowsec as my alliance operates in all areas of space, so denying the possibility of groups obtaining these ships is ignorant. The easiest way to manage enemy capitals? Either fight them or run from them. It's not like it will take you a whole lot of time to figure out whether you can destroy it on-site or not. If you can't beat it on-site, get more friends, or if not at all, simply run away. The only real complaint I have seen in this thread is not the use of capitals in lowsec, but rather that large alliances are flaunting them out of their usual area of operation. That isn't a problem in game mechanics or balance; quite simply a social problem. If you don't like the actions of your close neighbors and can't deal with it, perhaps it's time to find another area of space to fly in.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.04.29 20:51:00 - [264] Low sec would benefit if there was a short range cyno jammer module that people could use. That way bored supercap pilots would not have such easy time hot dropping small gang targets. So if hot drops could be forced out of tackle range and require at least 2 people for successful drop, low sec people would have more opportunity to run away. They still wouldn't be able to kill supercaps without massive blobbage, but at least they wouldn't be easy pickings either
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.04.29 21:03:00 - [265] Originally by: Asruv'ynn ...I most definitely agree that the biggest contributor to the supercapital's 'advantage' in lowsec is the lack of tackle.... The only real complaint I have seen in this thread is not the use of capitals in lowsec, but rather that large alliances are flaunting them out of their usual area of operation. That isn't a problem in game mechanics or balance; quite simply a social problem. If you don't like the actions of your close neighbors and can't deal with it, perhaps it's time to find another area of space to fly in. May I tl;dr your post as: - Yes, supercarriers are more powerful in low sec than in 0.0, and this incentivizes their use there - Yes, no native low sec alliance can reasonably deal with a single supercap, let alone the massive supercap drops that 0.0 alliances are throwing at solo phantasms - No, this isn't a problem because you can forego the small gang PVP lifestyle of low sec and join the 5000 man blobs of 0.0 or do highsec empire griefing. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
GavinGoodrich Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2010.04.29 21:15:00 - [266] While I have a lot of respect for CH, I'd agree there is some sort of issue with SC's in lowsec. "Call cry havoc to get rid of your problem" isn't really a viable solution to a game mechanic issue. One that's inspiring a lot of hate in very active threads. While I belive CH does it right 99% of the time in PVP, it's also created this snowball effect of they get to do pretty much whatever they want. Simply because thier reputation brings in tons of cap/super cap pilots, so there's a monopoly on lowsec firepower. This kind of pairs in tandem with the cyno thing...being able to instantly make a single ship appear that 20+ people aren't equipped to handle that ruins everything in an engagement, with no viable counter to it in sight, is one of the main reasons supercaps are used so liberally. Perhaps it's not the lowsec issue, but the issue of cyno "insta-drops, within 5k of your cyno from 10+ light year away in 10 seconds or your money back?" Towards the OP...we haven't had many of our lowsec roams hotdropped in the last few months...I'm curious who you're picking fights with that it happens semi-regularly? Is it random every time when it happens, or what? Generally you get a bead on someone if they do it routinely, and that's where most cap pilots get killed--in thier routines. \o
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.29 21:34:00 - [267] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Asruv'ynn ...I most definitely agree that the biggest contributor to the supercapital's 'advantage' in lowsec is the lack of tackle.... The only real complaint I have seen in this thread is not the use of capitals in lowsec, but rather that large alliances are flaunting them out of their usual area of operation. That isn't a problem in game mechanics or balance; quite simply a social problem. If you don't like the actions of your close neighbors and can't deal with it, perhaps it's time to find another area of space to fly in. May I tl;dr your post as: - Yes, supercarriers are more powerful in low sec than in 0.0, and this incentivizes their use there - Yes, no native low sec alliance can reasonably deal with a single supercap, let alone the massive supercap drops that 0.0 alliances are throwing at solo phantasms - No, this isn't a problem because you can forego the small gang PVP lifestyle of low sec and join the 5000 man blobs of 0.0 or do highsec empire griefing. -Liang I'm still not sure how you think a phantasm is going to die to a mothership drop unless it is overwhelmingly ******ed.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.04.29 21:43:00 - [268] Originally by: Viper **zIe I'm still not sure how you think a phantasm is going to die to a mothership drop unless it is overwhelmingly ****ed. I'm not sure how you think this justifies supercarriers being more powerful in low sec than in 0.0 -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.29 21:57:00 - [269] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Viper **zIe I'm still not sure how you think a phantasm is going to die to a mothership drop unless it is overwhelmingly ******ed. I'm not sure how you think this justifies supercarriers being more powerful in low sec than in 0.0 -Liang I'm not sure why you're literally dumb as hell
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.04.29 22:03:00 - [270] Originally by: Viper **zIe I'm not sure why you're literally dumb as hell Ok I'm dumb as hell. Please justify, using small words that I can understand, why it is acceptable for supercarriers to be more powerful in low sec than in 0.0. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire

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