Originally by: Dr Karsun

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Well.. I smell a troll...

Why nerf them? They cost such a load of isk that you'd buy a fleet of normal carriers and dreads for that. And they are not insurable like normal carriers, so if you shoot one down... It's 20b in the back of your enemy. Not to mention fighters or fighter bombers vs interceptors... They vanish like candy in the hands of a 10-year old. 25m or so in the back for each fighter? Yarr. And as far as I recall the fighter bombers weren't to be effective against anything smaller than a carrier?

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Originally by: Morgs44

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Well yes you could fly away, but they are dropping them on anything.
2 super carriers for a t3?

http://bl3h-united.com/kwfl/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=160470

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Originally by: Morgs44

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Anyone else having a problem with ppl dropping 1 or 2 super carriers on there roams.
Its starting to get a little to common. Just when it was getting popular to drop a carrier or be dropped by one which could turn the tide of a small bs/bc gang, we now have to put up with SC coming in and doing crazy damage and not being able to do anything about it, unless you also have a massive cap fleet or part of a large 0.0 alliance.

Nurf those suckers when they come into low sec, cause this ain't 0.0
Pew Pew

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Originally by: Morgs44

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Well yes you could fly away, but they are dropping them on anything.
2 super carriers for a t3?

http://bl3h-united.com/kwfl/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=160470

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Originally by: Pheusia

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Originally by: Morgs44

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Anyone else having a problem with ppl dropping 1 or 2 super carriers on there roams.
Its starting to get a little to common. Just when it was getting popular to drop a carrier or be dropped by one which could turn the tide of a small bs/bc gang, we now have to put up with SC coming in and doing crazy damage and not being able to do anything about it, unless you also have a massive cap fleet or part of a large 0.0 alliance.

Nurf those suckers when they come into low sec, cause this ain't 0.0
Pew Pew

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Yeah CCP should introduce some kind of supertough heavy tackler that can even stop supercaps warping off. That would make this kind of thing really dangerous.

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Originally by: Pheusia

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Yeah CCP should introduce some kind of supertough heavy tackler that can even stop supercaps warping off. That would make this kind of thing really dangerous.

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Originally by: Morgs44

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Well yes you could fly away, but they are dropping them on anything.
2 super carriers for a t3?

http://bl3h-united.com/kwfl/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=160470

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Originally by: Kripple

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Welp, people whining becuase they get outplayed.

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Originally by: tiviirulez

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Originally by: Pheusia

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Originally by: Morgs44

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Anyone else having a problem with ppl dropping 1 or 2 super carriers on there roams.
Its starting to get a little to common. Just when it was getting popular to drop a carrier or be dropped by one which could turn the tide of a small bs/bc gang, we now have to put up with SC coming in and doing crazy damage and not being able to do anything about it, unless you also have a massive cap fleet or part of a large 0.0 alliance.

Nurf those suckers when they come into low sec, cause this ain't 0.0
Pew Pew

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Yeah CCP should introduce some kind of supertough heavy tackler that can even stop supercaps warping off. That would make this kind of thing really dangerous.

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The focus-script works on moms/titans? Would be news to me.

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Originally by: Amberlamps

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T3 is something worthy of killing. What else would you expect them to want to kill? I doubt they'd jump a t1 ship. T3 pilots thinking they have the Iwinbutton but when the button sticks they rage.

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Originally by: Lindsay Logan

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Originally by: tiviirulez

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The focus-script works on moms/titans? Would be news to me.

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Would be news to most

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Originally by: Aerilis

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*cough*cryhavoc*cough*

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Originally by: Morgs44

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Anyone else having a problem with ppl dropping 1 or 2 super carriers on there roams.
Its starting to get a little to common. Just when it was getting popular to drop a carrier or be dropped by one which could turn the tide of a small bs/bc gang, we now have to put up with SC coming in and doing crazy damage and not being able to do anything about it, unless you also have a massive cap fleet or part of a large 0.0 alliance.

Nurf those suckers when they come into low sec, cause this ain't 0.0
Pew Pew

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Originally by: tiviirulez

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Originally by: Pheusia

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Originally by: Morgs44

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Anyone else having a problem with ppl dropping 1 or 2 super carriers on there roams.
Its starting to get a little to common. Just when it was getting popular to drop a carrier or be dropped by one which could turn the tide of a small bs/bc gang, we now have to put up with SC coming in and doing crazy damage and not being able to do anything about it, unless you also have a massive cap fleet or part of a large 0.0 alliance.

Nurf those suckers when they come into low sec, cause this ain't 0.0
Pew Pew

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Yeah CCP should introduce some kind of supertough heavy tackler that can even stop supercaps warping off. That would make this kind of thing really dangerous.

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The focus-script works on moms/titans? Would be news to me.

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Originally by: Lindsay Logan

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Originally by: tiviirulez

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Originally by: Pheusia

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Originally by: Morgs44

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Anyone else having a problem with ppl dropping 1 or 2 super carriers on there roams.
Its starting to get a little to common. Just when it was getting popular to drop a carrier or be dropped by one which could turn the tide of a small bs/bc gang, we now have to put up with SC coming in and doing crazy damage and not being able to do anything about it, unless you also have a massive cap fleet or part of a large 0.0 alliance.

Nurf those suckers when they come into low sec, cause this ain't 0.0
Pew Pew

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Yeah CCP should introduce some kind of supertough heavy tackler that can even stop supercaps warping off. That would make this kind of thing really dangerous.

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The focus-script works on moms/titans? Would be news to me.

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Would be news to most

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Originally by: Stan Smith

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Originally by: Pheusia

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Yeah CCP should introduce some kind of supertough heavy tackler that can even stop supercaps warping off. That would make this kind of thing really dangerous.

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I think you may have something there. You should post that in features and ideas!

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Originally by: Rawr Cristina

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Some people are very bored

Pretty much the second a Cap shows up, it's time to GTFO unless you have a LOT of backup somewhere

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Originally by: Morgs44

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Well yes you could fly away, but they are dropping them on anything.
2 super carriers for a t3?

http://bl3h-united.com/kwfl/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=160470

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Originally by: Sellmewarez

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Welcome to CAPITALS online.

If you do not have one, please log back out and don't come back until you have.

Best regards,
The Eve Community.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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You were in a Phantasm?

-Liang

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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I hear crying on the forums when you get outplayed enemies bring uncounterable ships is a viable tactic.

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Originally by: MOS DEF

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I don`t think supercarrier drops are a problem. They risk so much for little gain. You complain about it - then i guess it happened a lot. If it did they become predictable and killable. Buy those hics. If you pull it off - great kill - if not they will never try again after seeing you came with loads of hics.

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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If it's really this bad, how about introducing a new tier of cyno (alongside black ops and standard), require use of it for supercaps, and restricting it to 0.0?

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/04/2010 18:47:09

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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I hear crying on the forums when you get outplayed enemies bring uncounterable ships is a viable tactic.

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FTFY, and yeah.. me too!

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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People were saying the same thing about bringing triage carriers to every fight (which these guys do) a year ago.

Cry more.

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Originally by: Admiral Pelleon

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HI PL THX FOR THE 11 SUPERCARRIER HOTDROP IN LOWSEC ~~

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Cry moar, your overpowered supercarrier toy will be taken away.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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There's just a tiny difference between a triage carrier and a supercarrier. I dunno, maybe the part about the supercarrier being able to cyno out at will or the triage carrier not being able to provide DPS support...

Cry moar, your overpowered supercarrier toy will be taken away.

-Liang

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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So mad.

---

Quote:

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You obviously don't understand that motherships can be tackled in lowsec, go check the CH killboard, I'm pretty sure that they've killed about 20 of these ~invulnerable~ and ~unkillable~ ships that can ~jump out at will~ and are ruining the game.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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So mad.

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Self describing eh?

Quote:

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You obviously don't understand that motherships can be tackled in lowsec, go check the CH killboard, I'm pretty sure that they've killed about 20 of these ~invulnerable~ and ~unkillable~ ships that can ~jump out at will~ and are ruining the game.

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Yes, if you have a megablob at your back, you can kill them. Now talk to your typical 20 man pirate corp and tell me they aren't all but unkillable. Oh, I got it - let's put my whole corp in HICs so that we can get neuted out while the motherships jump out. **** that, either let my interdictor work in low sec or lose your ewar immunity.

-Liang

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Big fish, little fish...

Sometimes the hardest part for the middle sized fish is to keep in mind where they are in the food chain.

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Originally by: Admiral Pelleon

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HI PL THX FOR THE 11 SUPERCARRIER HOTDROP IN LOWSEC ~~

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Originally by: Morgs44

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Well yes you could fly away, but they are dropping them on anything.
2 super carriers for a t3?

http://bl3h-united.com/kwfl/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=160470

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Big fish, little fish...

Sometimes the hardest part for the middle sized fish is to keep in mind where they are in the food chain.

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It's true. But that has nothing to do with people bringing ewar immune ships into a place where fully 3/4s of the counters don't work. If you want to bring a supercap into low sec, you should be able to be tackled by a single interceptor - just like any other carrier.

-Liang

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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How many counters does the typical person have that blunders unwisely into a 20 pirate camp on a low sec gate?

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Quote:

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To quote Clint Eastwood: A man has to know his limitations.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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How many counters does the typical person have that blunders unwisely into a 20 pirate camp on a low sec gate?

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It depends what you're in. If you're in anything smaller than a cruiser, you probably won't be bothered because of sentry guns preventing small fry from operating on a gate. It's pretty easy to get even battlecruisers out of big enough gatecamps - which is why the BC is the ship of choice in low sec.

-Liang

---

Quote:

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That does nothing to address the fact that 3/4s of the supposed "counters" to supercarriers and titans don't actually work in low sec. Like I said: either make all the counters work or make them not required in the first place.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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As to the

Quote:

---

That does nothing to address the fact that 3/4s of the supposed "counters" to supercarriers and titans don't actually work in low sec. Like I said: either make all the counters work or make them not required in the first place.

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statement, what counters that work in Null Sec but don't work in Low Sec are you referring to exactly?

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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To quote Clint Eastwood: A man has to know his limitations.

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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tl;dr

OP's corp tried to escalate a BS fight with carriers, OP's corp loses carrier to re-escalation, OP's corp starts bawwing, some siigari fanboi jumps in and whiteknights ******s (as usual), everyone wins.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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As to the

Quote:

---

That does nothing to address the fact that 3/4s of the supposed "counters" to supercarriers and titans don't actually work in low sec. Like I said: either make all the counters work or make them not required in the first place.

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statement, what counters that work in Null Sec but don't work in Low Sec are you referring to exactly?

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*Anchored bubbles
*Interdictor bubbles
*Hictor bubbles
Hictor focused

* Don't work in low sec

-Liang

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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As to the

Quote:

---

That does nothing to address the fact that 3/4s of the supposed "counters" to supercarriers and titans don't actually work in low sec. Like I said: either make all the counters work or make them not required in the first place.

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statement, what counters that work in Null Sec but don't work in Low Sec are you referring to exactly?

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*Anchored bubbles
*Interdictor bubbles
*Hictor bubbles
Hictor focused

* Don't work in low sec

-Liang

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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- Whether the OP lost carriers to a re-escalation is immaterial to the argument that supercarriers and titans are overpowered in low sec due to most of their counters not actually working.

TBH, the thread is starting to sound like "Bawwww, someone might be able to tackle my low sec pwnmobile with less than the megablobs I'm afraid to face in 0.0!!! Bawwww!!" Man if you guys feel that things are so boring in 0.0, why don't you unblue a few of your neighbors? What, skeert?

-Liang

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Originally by: Xtover

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Edited by: Xtover on 26/04/2010 19:45:40

Originally by: Admiral Pelleon

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HI PL THX FOR THE 11 SUPERCARRIER HOTDROP IN LOWSEC ~~

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REQUESTED TO DOCK
DOCKING OPERATION ALREADY IN PROGRESS

REQUESTED TO DOCK
DOCKING OPERATION ALREADY IN PROGRESS


You were playing station games anyway.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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That is the beauty of Eve, it's a crucible in which great minds are formed and the rest are ground to dust.

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Originally by: Snake O'Donell

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Originally by: Aerilis

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*cough*cryhavoc*cough*

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Aerilis
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate

Oh the irony.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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The food chain indeed! LOL.

The groups of players who like to hotdrop SCs in lowsec are the same players that have been run out of 0.0 by larger blobs and are now content to pick on anyone smaller than they are. The reason you don't see SCs thrown around in 0.0 too often is that there are Titans on hand with DDs ready to one volley them to bits. That and the fact that 50-100 dread pilots are fairly easy to get delivered to your grid if you know what you're doing.

As for "SC pilots are always sitting around bored", I call bull****. I don't know of ONE SC pilot that either A) uses the SC on his main without having multiple PVP alts while his main is in an SC or B) simply has an SC alt dedicated to flying it. Nobody is ever just 'sitting around bored' in their SC. I haven't confined my main to the coffin that is my Nyx and I never will.

A single SC in lowsec isn't a problem in my opinion. Even an SC with a few carriers or dreads, still, not that much of a problem. It's when you get 4+ SCs remote repping each other while they're unable to be jammed to stop the remote reps (gasp! Bellum supporting ECM!) that things get a little out of hand. This is particularly the case when all the SCs are set up specifically to spidertank with all RRs, no local reps and an ultra-hardened tank. No bueno.

Liang brought it up earlier and I think it's a great idea as well, even if I do have a SC myself- SCs need to lose their EW immunity in lowsec.

Titans have lost their DD use in lowsec. This sets the precedent for the game design. There is no RP reason for it, it just is. SCs are already incredibly powerful, particularly after their massive HP boost and the addition of fighterbombers. Even with the loss of EW immunity in lowsec a group of 4-6 SCs would be almost impossible to kill without a massive blob. With the removal of EW immunity at least smaller entities would have a fighting chance of jamming the SC remote rep chain in order to slowly take down a single target before the rest cyno out.

SCs are more powerful than they ever have been. Nobody can compare a modern SC to the Motherships of old. Were x13 to try and kill an SC of today they would fail miserably. It's a good thing to have different and varied combat environments in Eve. Each area has it's own style and flavor of combat. It's clear that SCs are an 'I win' button at the moment. I think it's fair to reduce that, if only by a very small amount. If SC pilots want fights then they opposing fleet needs to have at least a -hope- of succeeding.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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The reason you don't see SCs thrown around in 0.0 too often is that there are Titans on hand with DDs ready to one volley them to bits.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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I haven't confined my main to the coffin that is my Nyx and I never will.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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This is particularly the case when all the SCs are set up specifically to spidertank with all RRs, no local reps and an ultra-hardened tank. No bueno.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Liang brought it up earlier and I think it's a great idea as well, even if I do have a SC myself- SCs need to lose their EW immunity in lowsec.

Titans have lost their DD use in lowsec. This sets the precedent for the game design.

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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I hear crying on the forums when you get outplayed is a viable tactic.

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Originally by: Pheusia

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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I hear crying on the forums when you get outplayed is a viable tactic.

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How did it work for you after D-G?

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Originally by: Bruce Carraway

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make super caps dockable!!!

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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The reason you don't see SCs thrown around in 0.0 too often is that there are Titans on hand with DDs ready to one volley them to bits.

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You sure know a lot about this game.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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I haven't confined my main to the coffin that is my Nyx and I never will.

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You have a nyx and you think titans can one volley it, really?

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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This is particularly the case when all the SCs are set up specifically to spidertank with all RRs, no local reps and an ultra-hardened tank. No bueno.

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Bringing proper fits gives you an upper hand? Why I never.

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Liang brought it up earlier and I think it's a great idea as well, even if I do have a SC myself- SCs need to lose their EW immunity in lowsec.

Titans have lost their DD use in lowsec. This sets the precedent for the game design.

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Titans haven't lost their EW immunity in lowsec, there is no precedent except your whinging.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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That is the beauty of Eve, it's a crucible in which great minds are formed and the rest are ground to dust.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Not that my opinion matters, but I wouldn't see a huge problem with that Bellum. It would be far preferable to allowing bubbles to work in Low Sec at any rate.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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That is the beauty of Eve, it's a crucible in which great minds are formed and the rest are ground to dust.

---

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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1) You answered your own question with respect to Titans easily killing a SC in one volley: Titan(S). Plural. One volley from multiple ships. Instantly killed in one volley. No amount of spider tanking will save you from an alpha strike. Only an idiot would have confused what I said to derive your interpretation of my statement.

2) How am I complaining about proper fits? I'm simply reiterating how much more effective spider tanking SCs can be with optimal fits vs. simple 6x 'solo' fits. Only an idiot would have confused what I said to derive your interpretation of my statement.

3) Titans have lost their ability to doomsday in lowsec. Not EW immunity. Keep up. Only an idiot would have confused what I said to derive your interpretation of my statement.

You sure know a lot about this game. Only an idiot would have confused what I said to derive your interpretation of my statements.

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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Only an idiot could complain about things being "overpowered" or "game breaking" or "not fair" when they have no idea how they work in the actual game environment.

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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What's with all the ad hominem Bellum, I just pointed out what you said.

Let's do some simple numbers here. It would take 12 titans to kill a properly fit Nyx with DDs (on lowest resist, explosive), it would take 19 to kill a properly fit Nyx if it decided to overload its hardeners. This is all assuming it has no gang bonuses and if they all had DD 5. FYI, it's 26-27 with a Erebus boosting. Only an idiot would think this is feasible without the node crashing and only an idiot would take a mothership into such a situation.

Next, there is no difference between a "solo fit" mothership and a "bricked RR fit mothership". Only an idiot would have personal reps and only an idiot wouldn't try to maximize their effective hitpoints.

Also, maybe you should understand the definition of precedent. Saying that one class of ships lost the ability to do one thing while assuming that means an entirely different class of ships should not be able to do something completely different does not imply precedent. Hell, it doesn't even imply that the two classes are connected in any way (you may notice the use of the word different).

Only an idiot could complain about things being "overpowered" or "game breaking" or "not fair" when they have no idea how they work in the actual game environment.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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That is the beauty of Eve, it's a crucible in which great minds are formed and the rest are ground to dust.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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Only an idiot could complain about things being "overpowered" or "game breaking" or "not fair" when they have no idea how they work in the actual game environment.

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I thought I'd point out again that in low sec (only), my Sabre doesn't counter your Nyx. I think we all know what the right answer is here, and it isn't putting bubbles in low sec. Supercaps lose ewar immunity in lowsec.

TIA

-Liang

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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My comparison (to make it *completely* clear) between Titans and SC in lowsec is that Titans lose a SHIP FUNCTION (DD) in lowsec. I never said they lose EW immunity. Why so obtuse? I'm saying that if it's game balancing to have no DDs in lowsec for Titans then that sets precedent for a class of ships to lose a special ability per security status of the system. You're really going to continue to pick at this?

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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It also doesn't counter sieged dreads or carriers in triage which can jump as soon as their cycle is over, it also doesn't counter titans.

Hey, guess what, there's good news. There's a class of ships that was designed to do exactly that, and they do a pretty good job at it. Maybe you should try using one of the ships specifically designed for tackling ewar immune ships instead of crying that your ~insert random scrub ship here~ can't do it.

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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DD originally worked in lowsec post-patch, it was removed because it was an "exploit" since the AOE DD didn't work before, not because it broke balance

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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Only an idiot could complain about things being "overpowered" or "game breaking" or "not fair" when they have no idea how they work in the actual game environment.

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

DD originally worked in lowsec post-patch, it was removed because it was an "exploit" since the AOE DD didn't work before, not because it broke balance. There was even discussion of re-adding it to the game, but now that Abathur has left and nobody at CCP actually cares about capitals anymore I doubt very much that it will happen.

Also maybe we don't use them in 0.0 because escalation as a 50 character corp is somewhat impossible to do in that regard without having half of the game blue~

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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That is the beauty of Eve, it's a crucible in which great minds are formed and the rest are ground to dust.

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Originally by: Omal Oma

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Join an alliance who holds sov, live in their systems and roam 0.0.

If they hold sov, they can cyno jam the system and defend against it.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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DD originally worked in lowsec post-patch, it was removed because it was an "exploit" since the AOE DD didn't work before, not because it broke balance. There was even discussion of re-adding it to the game, but now that Abathur has left and nobody at CCP actually cares about capitals anymore I doubt very much that it will happen.

Also maybe we don't use them in 0.0 because escalation as a 50 character corp is somewhat impossible to do in that regard without having half of the game blue~

---

Bolded the important part. So yes, I agree with you completely- you choose to kill stuff smaller than yourselves and stick to lowsec where you can beat up on smaller groups and enjoy the fact that you'll never be able to be killed without a massively larger fleet coming into play.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Here, let's see if I can spell this out clearly:
- Supercarriers are a supercap
- There are four counters to a supercap in 0.0
- There are megablobs and massive napfests in 0.0
- There is exactly one counter to a supercap in low sec.
- Supercarriers are fully functional in low sec
=> Supercarriers are more powerful in low sec - which is a place singularly ill suited to doing anything about them.

There are two reasonable solutions to a glaring game imbalance here:
- Ban all supercaps from low sec
- Supercaps lose ewar immunity and fighter bombers in low sec

-Liang

Ed: Also, dictors are hardly "scrub ships" considering that they've been used many times to counter supercaps .... in 0.0

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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The HIC is a single counter to a supercap in lowsec, neuting/bumping is another (that's how you had to do it before HICs, remember)

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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I thought I'd point out again that in low sec (only), my Sabre doesn't counter your Nyx.
-Liang

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Originally by: Dez Affinity

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

DD originally worked in lowsec post-patch, it was removed because it was an "exploit" since the AOE DD didn't work before, not because it broke balance. There was even discussion of re-adding it to the game, but now that Abathur has left and nobody at CCP actually cares about capitals anymore I doubt very much that it will happen.

Also maybe we don't use them in 0.0 because escalation as a 50 character corp is somewhat impossible to do in that regard without having half of the game blue~

---

Bolded the important part. So yes, I agree with you completely- you choose to kill stuff smaller than yourselves and stick to lowsec where you can beat up on smaller groups and enjoy the fact that you'll never be able to be killed without a massively larger fleet coming into play.

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Quoting a MeatSausage Express guy about sticking to low-sec, blobbing smaller groups and using caps on those without a large fleet.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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That is the beauty of Eve, it's a crucible in which great minds are formed and the rest are ground to dust.

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Originally by: Le Skunk

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Edited by: Le Skunk on 27/04/2010 00:08:16

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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The HIC is a single counter to a supercap in lowsec, neuting/bumping is another (that's how you had to do it before HICs, remember)

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Yes, neuting and bumping was so effective it worked once in 9 months on a pilot who solo hotdropped the same system every day for 2 weeks at the same time.

I am glad to hear the HIC is a counter to MOM drops. Next time im hotdropped by 7 mother ships, Ill get in my HIC (I can fly all 4 dont ya known) and everything will be alright \o/

SKUNK

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Originally by: Morgs44

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I wouldn't say i am crying about it yet (well maybe over a nice battle gone due to a sc) but just stating that they are getting common (well in our area).

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

Originally by: Morgs44

---

I wouldn't say i am crying about it yet (well maybe over a nice battle gone due to a sc) but just stating that they are getting common (well in our area).

---

You dropped a triage archon to fight someone who you outnumbered and you're complaining about ruining good fights?

Really?

Guess what, we aren't a massive 0.0 alliance with multiple supercaps online either. We're a 53 character corp, just about the same size as yours and definitely smaller than your alliance. If you hadn't have brought a triage archon in to save you from our smaller numbers (lol) then we wouldn't have needed to bring the motherships in. You decided to escalate, you paid the price, now you get to cry about it on an internet spaceship forum.

---

Originally by: Morgs44

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

Originally by: Morgs44

---

I wouldn't say i am crying about it yet (well maybe over a nice battle gone due to a sc) but just stating that they are getting common (well in our area).

---

You dropped a triage archon to fight someone who you outnumbered and you're complaining about ruining good fights?

Really?

Guess what, we aren't a massive 0.0 alliance with multiple supercaps online either. We're a 53 character corp, just about the same size as yours and definitely smaller than your alliance. If you hadn't have brought a triage archon in to save you from our smaller numbers (lol) then we wouldn't have needed to bring the motherships in. You decided to escalate, you paid the price, now you get to cry about it on an internet spaceship forum.

---

Come on buddy, dropping a single carrier cant be compared to dropping a sc.

---

Originally by: Morgs44

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

Originally by: Morgs44

---

I wouldn't say i am crying about it yet (well maybe over a nice battle gone due to a sc) but just stating that they are getting common (well in our area).

---

You dropped a triage archon to fight someone who you outnumbered and you're complaining about ruining good fights?

Really?

Guess what, we aren't a massive 0.0 alliance with multiple supercaps online either. We're a 53 character corp, just about the same size as yours and definitely smaller than your alliance. If you hadn't have brought a triage archon in to save you from our smaller numbers (lol) then we wouldn't have needed to bring the motherships in. You decided to escalate, you paid the price, now you get to cry about it on an internet spaceship forum.

---

Come on buddy, dropping a single carrier cant be compared to dropping a sc.

---

Originally by: Ephemeron

---

Viper ****zIe come on, you gotta admit that motherships in low sec are overpowered at least a little. Maybe not as much as your main opponents say, but at least a little

You should also be aware that multiple DD is currently the most effective way to dispatch motherships. When CCP were buffing them, they thought specifically about 0.0 PvP dynamics, and specifically addressing the Titan's DD issue.

DD was the main reason for boost. Since DD is not available in low sec, performance of motherships in low sec was boosted without justifiable reason.

Agreed, I want to kill a sc ;-) and i dont want/think it should be easy. But at the moment they are to overpowered. Nerfing them only a little so there is a risk to the sc for coming into low sec
The only question is about the magnitude of overpower, and how severe the nerf should be. I suggest you try convince people that only a moderate nerf is needed, instead of trying to convince them there is no problem at all, which is doomed to fail.

---

Originally by: Ephemeron

---

Viper ****zIe come on, you gotta admit that motherships in low sec are overpowered at least a little. Maybe not as much as your main opponents say, but at least a little

You should also be aware that multiple DD is currently the most effective way to dispatch motherships. When CCP were buffing them, they thought specifically about 0.0 PvP dynamics, and specifically addressing the Titan's DD issue.

DD was the main reason for boost. Since DD is not available in low sec, performance of motherships in low sec was boosted without justifiable reason.

The only question is about the magnitude of overpower, and how severe the nerf should be. I suggest you try convince people that only a moderate nerf is needed, instead of trying to convince them there is no problem at all, which is doomed to fail.

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

Do you actually play this game?

---

Quote:

---

Megablobs and napfests are involved in lowsec as well (especially when there are dumb supercaps to kill) they are, however, far less prevalent.

---

Quote:

---

Also, please tell me ways to kill a triage carrier in lowsec within its 5 minute triage cycle without using motherships or above a dozen dreads/carriers, because it's sure as hell going to jump out before you can get a point on it when triage drops

---

Quote:

---

You can't really say that motherships are breaking the game because you're just too lazy to bring a ship that counters them.

---

Quote:

---

Motherships are balanced for 0.0 considering their cost and the effort that goes into building them, as well as the little thing about not being able to dock and keeping a character tied down. In lowsec "v0v", they are powerful but not to the point of breaking the game or being unkillable. The best way to dispatch motherships is with motherships, not with titans. Guess what, motherships work against motherships in lowsec too.

---

Originally by: HarrietMiers

---

Remember how hard MSs were hard to kill in low sec before Hics?

Yeah, you don't. Stop whining, get some friends, counter hot drop, and kill them.

CCP isn't coming to save you.

---

Originally by: Liang Nuren

---

No, I can definitely bring a ship that counters them... the simple fact is that the counters in low sec are much less powerful and numerous than the counters in 0.0.

-Liang

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

So you'd have a ship that costs 11b to build, requires an alt account to use, can't dock, can't "disengage" on-grid (i.e mwd away) and allow it to be scrambled by any scrub in a t1 frigate (or ibis~) when there's already a dedicated ship that would allow you to do all of this?

And you'd leave other EW-immune ships alone when they are just as powerful if not more powerful in specific situations?

Really?

CCP should hire you, sounds like you know what you're talking about.

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

Originally by: Liang Nuren

---

No, I can definitely bring a ship that counters them... the simple fact is that the counters in low sec are much less powerful and numerous than the counters in 0.0.

-Liang

---

So you'd have a ship that costs 11b to build, requires an alt account to use, can't dock, can't "disengage" on-grid (i.e mwd away) and allow it to be scrambled by any scrub in a t1 frigate (or ibis~) when there's already a dedicated ship that would allow you to do all of this?

And you'd leave other EW-immune ships alone when they are just as powerful if not more powerful in specific situations?

Really?

CCP should hire you, sounds like you know what you're talking about.

---

Originally by: Liang Nuren

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

So you'd have a ship that costs 11b to build, requires an alt account to use, can't dock, can't "disengage" on-grid (i.e mwd away) and allow it to be scrambled by any scrub in a t1 frigate (or ibis~) when there's already a dedicated ship that would allow you to do all of this?

And you'd leave other EW-immune ships alone when they are just as powerful if not more powerful in specific situations?

Really?

CCP should hire you, sounds like you know what you're talking about.

---

Cry moar, your supercarrier i-win button might actually require some support or be in danger when used recklessly?

-Liang

---

Originally by: Morgs44

---

I would genuinely like to see a km of a solo super carrier without multiple super carriers on it.

---

Originally by: Morgs44

---

Thats a pre patch one isnt it?

---

Originally by: Morgs44

---

I would genuinely like to see a km of a solo super carrier without multiple super carriers on it.

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

Originally by: Morgs44

---

I would genuinely like to see a km of a solo super carrier without multiple super carriers on it.

---

http://killboard.cryhavoc-eve.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=47450

only one on that~

---

Originally by: Jack Dant

---

Originally by: Amberlamps

---

T3 is something worthy of killing. What else would you expect them to want to kill? I doubt they'd jump a t1 ship. T3 pilots thinking they have the Iwinbutton but when the button sticks they rage.

---

I've seen 4 supercarriers, along with 4 regular carriers, dropped on a solo drake.

Admitedly, I think that was done just for a laugh.

---

Originally by: Liang Nuren

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

So you'd have a ship that costs 11b to build, requires an alt account to use, can't dock, can't "disengage" on-grid (i.e mwd away) and allow it to be scrambled by any scrub in a t1 frigate (or ibis~) when there's already a dedicated ship that would allow you to do all of this?

And you'd leave other EW-immune ships alone when they are just as powerful if not more powerful in specific situations?

Really?

CCP should hire you, sounds like you know what you're talking about.

---

Cry moar, your supercarrier i-win button might actually require some support or be in danger when used recklessly?

-Liang

---

Originally by: HarrietMiers

---

Wow you are awful bitter. Some SC pilot touch you in your no-no spot?

---

Quote:

---

Call in all the pirates within 50 jumps, and then call in all your 0.0 friends, Get a really big gang that may or may not have anything to do for hours while you try to , bait, kill, loot. Or keep whining and looking like a petulant five year old. A ship that costs 20 bil isk (minimum) and years of training to fly might actually ::gasp:: require strategic forethought and risk to kill? Why I never!

---

Quote:

---

WTS: clue.

Edited, forgot they were SC now, not MS.

---

Originally by: Liang Nuren

---

FTFY. You just don't understand how unreasonable what you're saying really is in a lot of ways. Look, I'm not asking for Supercarriers to suck - I'm asking for them to not be less vulnerable in low sec than in 0.0.

-Liang

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

You're asking for them to be more vulnerable in lowsec than in 0.0

---

Originally by: Liang Nuren

---

Originally by: HarrietMiers

---

Wow you are awful bitter. Some SC pilot touch you in your no-no spot?

---

No.

Quote:

---

Call in all the pirates within 50 jumps, and then call in all your 0.0 friends, Get a really big gang that may or may not have anything to do for hours while you try to , bait, kill, loot. Or keep whining and looking like a petulant five year old. A ship that costs 20 bil isk (minimum) and years of training to fly might actually ::gasp:: require strategic forethought and risk to kill? Why I never!

---

FTFY. You just don't understand how unreasonable what you're saying really is in a lot of ways. Look, I'm not asking for Supercarriers to suck - I'm asking for them to not be less vulnerable in low sec than in 0.0.

Quote:

---

WTS: clue.

Edited, forgot they were SC now, not MS.

---

-Liang

---

Originally by: Liang Nuren

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

You're asking for them to be more vulnerable in lowsec than in 0.0

---

Ok, then lets put bubbles of all varieties in low sec.

-Liang

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

You're asking for them to be more vulnerable in lowsec than in 0.0

---

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

---

That is the beauty of Eve, it's a crucible in which great minds are formed and the rest are ground to dust.

---

Originally by: HarrietMiers

---

You're pretty bad at this for a so called forum warrior, but I'll play.

Can you tackle a SC in low sec, yes or no? (yes.)

Then it's gankable. Stop whining, get some friends and kill it.

- Liang

---

Originally by: Liang Nuren

---

Originally by: HarrietMiers

---

You're pretty bad at this for a so called forum warrior, but I'll play.

Can you tackle a SC in low sec, yes or no? (yes.)

Then it's gankable. Stop whining, get some friends and kill it.

- Liang

---

First, your fake signature is all wrong. There's no spaces on the signature line. Second, yes, you can tackle a SC in low sec BUT IT IS MUCH HARDER THAN IN 0.0. Supercarriers - even without ewar immunity - are far more powerful in lowsec than in 0.0 simply because low sec doesn't have the same political landscape. Add to that an enforced (by game mechanic) superiority?

No, at this point all you're doing is whining because someone's threatening your massive i-win button.

-Liang

---

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

You're asking for them to be more vulnerable in lowsec than in 0.0

---

Viper-

My *only* issue with SC in lowsec is this: unbreakable spider tanks. That's it.

What if:

1) SCs were able to be jammed by ECM and/or affected by damps, but left unaffected by webs/normal disruptors?

or

2) SCs can't fit remote reps. Leave that the domain of Carriers?

Yes, I know #2 sounds insane, I'm just tossing it out there. :p

---

Originally by: HarrietMiers

---

This is my main, and though I've been playing since Castor - this is my only account as of now. Nothing personal, I see SC as vulnerable to the right gang and the right bait. I also hate lazy pvpers who want CCP to do the work for them. I'm not whinign one bit, I don't own one - and never will. I do, however, like killing them. Since HICS were introduced... there is no need to nerf anything. Suck it up bro, SC die all the time. Get in their and join the fun.

Not a SC pilot, just sick of all the whining.


- Liang

Edit - Hey bro, what is your suggestion for fixing the problem that you perceive? Perhaps we can discuss that rather than slapping each other like girlie men? Very Happy

---

Originally by: Liang Nuren

---

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/04/2010 03:02:04

Originally by: HarrietMiers

---

This is my main, and though I've been playing since Castor - this is my only account as of now. Nothing personal, I see SC as vulnerable to the right gang and the right bait. I also hate lazy pvpers who want CCP to do the work for them. I'm not whinign one bit, I don't own one - and never will. I do, however, like killing them. Since HICS were introduced... there is no need to nerf anything. Suck it up bro, SC die all the time. Get in their and join the fun.

Not a SC pilot, just sick of all the whining.


- Liang

Edit - Hey bro, what is your suggestion for fixing the problem that you perceive? Perhaps we can discuss that rather than slapping each other like girlie men? Very Happy

---

I take it back, there are more options:
- Supercarriers in 0.0 can only be tackled by HICs with focused interdiction scripts
- Supercarriers lose super special abilities in low sec, like titans
- Low sec becomes the land of bubbles and doomsdays
- Stop all supercaps from cynoing in low sec

Tell me, which of these seems more reasonable? The complaint isn't that supercarriers are unkillable - its that many of the counters which exist in 0.0 do not exist in low sec. This creates a power imbalance where the best place to use your supercarrier is in low sec.

Stop the 0.0 blue napfest and take the super caps back out where they belong.

-Liang

Ed: To your edit: I think the best solution of the ones above is to lose special cool features in low sec. If you have a solution other than "lol cry moar noob - game imbalances which **** over low sec are a-ok by me. Sincerely, 0.0 NAPfestBear" then let me know.

---

Originally by: HarrietMiers

---

I'd be fine with the second option. I don't think the other 3 have a chance in hell of getting by CCP (for good reason.)

- Liang

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

So you can't solo a capital in your battleship or gank it with 10?

Damn son, that sure is gamebreaking.

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

So you can't solo a capital in your battleship or gank it with 10?

Damn son, that sure is gamebreaking.

---

Originally by: HarrietMiers

---

Here is what I believe is the foundation of our disagreement Liang: You think that SC's are "uncounterable" as you put it on page 1.

I do not. You just need some planning, friends, and a cyno (or three.)

Where is the problem?

- Liang

---

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

---

That is the beauty of Eve, it's a crucible in which great minds are formed and the rest are ground to dust.

---

Originally by: Liang Nuren

---

Originally by: HarrietMiers

---

Here is what I believe is the foundation of our disagreement Liang: You think that SC's are "uncounterable" as you put it on page 1.

I do not. You just need some planning, friends, and a cyno (or three.)

Where is the problem?

- Liang

---

Bait, a hic, and a cyno. What's the big deal?

No, I think that SCs are much harder to counter in low sec due to so many of the "counters" being off the table.

-Liang

---

Originally by: Mistress Suffering

---

I suspect Viper is just worried some CCP random who doesn't actually play with clueful groups will read this and become confused.

---

Originally by: Dez Affinity

---

Originally by: Morgs44

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

You dropped a triage archon to fight someone who you outnumbered and you're complaining about ruining good fights?

Really?

Guess what, we aren't a massive 0.0 alliance with multiple supercaps online either. We're a 53 character corp, just about the same size as yours and definitely smaller than your alliance. If you hadn't have brought a triage archon in to save you from our smaller numbers (lol) then we wouldn't have needed to bring the motherships in. You decided to escalate, you paid the price, now you get to cry about it on an internet spaceship forum.

---

Come on buddy, dropping a single carrier cant be compared to dropping a sc.

---

I wasn't there but, I'm not going to lie, it was overkill.

So was 7 bs 1 t3 a couple others and a triage archon for 2 BS. That's the way the game is, sometimes you get blobbed, sometimes you're the blobber, once in a while you get a nice fair fight.

---

Originally by: Morgs44

---

My worry is that sc might be the new falcon as it could reduces pvp in low sec.

---

Originally by: Morgs44

---

The only thing sc have to worry about is the HIC's
and you'll need a few of them. Cause if they want to leave they can just nuet the capp out of them or drone blob them and leave.

And if half ya fleet is in HIC how are you going to get th dps to kill'em
Like i said before this is low sec not 0.0
Would you like us to all be blue??

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

I, too, often compare spaceship videogames to real life.

---

Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

I, too, often compare spaceship videogames to real life.

---

You do, without knowing it, because your ideas of how things are supposed to work are grounded in the reality in which you were raised. This is why new players instinctively find EVE "unfair" (because it absolutely is, by real life standards) before they acclimate to EVE's own set of rules, morals, and philosophies.

In the end, games always end up, on some level, being a metaphor for real life. Ignoring examples set by real life because "This is a game, real life obviously never applies" is far more unrealistic than the opposite.

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

I, too, often compare spaceship videogames to real life.

---

You do, without knowing it, because your ideas of how things are supposed to work are grounded in the reality in which you were raised. This is why new players instinctively find EVE "unfair" (because it absolutely is, by real life standards) before they acclimate to EVE's own set of rules, morals, and philosophies.

In the end, games always end up, on some level, being a metaphor for real life. Ignoring examples set by real life because "This is a game, real life obviously never applies" is far more unrealistic than the opposite.

---

You're right, I find myself doing this all the time. Thank you for finally pointing this out for me.

---

Originally by: Morgs44

---

Hay debbie harrio have you actually read the thread or are just having a big cry cause you like to?

No one is saying ban sc from low sec, just give them a risk for doing it as its a "I win button" atm.
CCP seem to want the game play in the different security levels different thats why titans cant DD in low sec.
Allowing another Super capital with just as much strength and no restriction doesn't seem...right?

Sure we've had 1 or 2 sc dropped on us 4 or 5 time and lost a few ships, so what thats pvp. But its going to decrease the amount of ppl engaging in comabt because they might think twice about them dropping a sc and ending the fight (either dieing or running) which is not good.

Reminds me of the falcon problem, everyman and his dog had a falcon alt with him and fights just became a big ecmfest. A simple change and they are still every useful but not horded.

My worry is that sc might be the new falcon as it could reduces pvp in low sec.

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

Originally by: Morgs44

---

My worry is that sc might be the new falcon as it could reduces pvp in low sec.

---

---

Originally by: Sellmewarez

---

Posting in a thread which has now become people who ***** about getting outblobbed in 0.0 defending their right to blob lowsec.

---

Originally by: Le Skunk

---

Originally by: Sellmewarez

---

Posting in a thread which has now become people who ***** about getting outblobbed in 0.0 defending their right to blob lowsec.

---

LOL

Its fairly natural for 0.0 pilots to blob. You dont join a 3000 man alliance for the excellent 1v1 and small gang pvp opportunity's.

When you join a 3000 man alliance - You are sacrificing any impact you as an individual will have on the game into the hands of a select few leadership figures

You are told what time to log on. Your performance is monitored with work targets. If you are caught shirking your responsibility you are puinished. You will stop playing a game you pay for citing "work" or "kid trouble" so you wont be hounded why your online and not on the CTA. If you talk at the wrong time on comms you are insulted. You turn up when told, you go to systems you are told, you warp where you are told, and you shoot people in the order you are told. Your a dirty little slave and you love it!

In exchange you get to sit in 1000 man lag fests waiting for your modules to activate in the hope of being be pilot number 210 on a titan killmail (which you can load up every now and then whilst at work) and wonder where the officer loot went???. Oh and you get to see your leadership flying around in MOMs, Titans, and 10 bill faction ships paid for by your hard work taking moons in the above mentioned lag fests.

Im sure a lot of you would love to post to tell me how great it is and your not at all slaves but your alliance does not allow you to post on the forums :-)

SKUNK

---

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

---

That is the beauty of Eve, it's a crucible in which great minds are formed and the rest are ground to dust.

---

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

---

Liang-

Would you be amicable to either of my two earlier suggestions? SCs being able to be ECMed/damped while in lowsec, or no SC able to fit remote reps while in lowsec?

Viper said he thought those were reasonable ideas. Frankly I think that's as far as SC lowsec changes need to go. How about you?

---

Originally by: Liang Nuren

---

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

---

Liang-

Would you be amicable to either of my two earlier suggestions? SCs being able to be ECMed/damped while in lowsec, or no SC able to fit remote reps while in lowsec?

Viper said he thought those were reasonable ideas. Frankly I think that's as far as SC lowsec changes need to go. How about you?

---

Like I said - the biggest problem is the lack of ways of interdicting them combined with their what the **** absurd DPS. Keep supercaps in 0.0 where they belong, IMO... but I will settle for them simply not being more powerful in lowsec than in 0.0. Neither of these two strike me as addressing the concern of them being more powerful. Maybe if you wanted to make them completely unable to RECEIVE RR in low sec... ?

-Liang

---

Originally by: domitesting

---

Edited by: domitesting on 26/04/2010 11:35:52

Originally by: Morgs44

---

Well yes you could fly away, but they are dropping them on anything.
2 super carriers for a t3?

http://bl3h-united.com/kwfl/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=160470

---

look at the comments, seems to me he tried to kill the tempest even after the cyno was lit...should of gone as soon as cyno was lit..anyway you know for next time that they have super caps and the tempest obviously was waitin around to bait people..seems to me with respect the T3 guy agressed and tried to gank the tempest (4 BS on standby) and he got baited and killed - unlucky! you cant have it all your own way..

"had about 4 bs on standby. tempest warps to planet. i follow. tempest lights cyno and we call it off. got him to quarter armor before the supercarriers repped him"

lol he doesnt learn does he..this was BEFORE the T3 kill- so he KNEW they had supercaps

http://bl3h-united.com/kwfl/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=166296

Look at a person on the kill mail Viper Schizzle...ring any bells - ex PL....nuff said...

---

Originally by: Liang Nuren

---

Like I said - the biggest problem is the lack of ways of interdicting them combined with their what the **** absurd DPS. Keep supercaps in 0.0 where they belong, IMO... but I will settle for them simply not being more powerful in lowsec than in 0.0. Neither of these two strike me as addressing the concern of them being more powerful. Maybe if you wanted to make them completely unable to RECEIVE RR in low sec... ?

-Liang

---

Originally by: HarrietMiers

---

Once again, where is the problem you all are talking about?

These things die all the friggin time as of right now. Ask Cry Havoc, they kill a good 3 or 4 a month. If they are getting popped by intelligent tactics, take years to train for and tens of billions of isk to produce and fit, and are clearly gankable - what problem is it you all are trying to solve?

A lot of sound and fury for a ship class that gets popped 20 + times a month.

- Liang

---

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

---

That is the beauty of Eve, it's a crucible in which great minds are formed and the rest are ground to dust.

---

Originally by: Deja Thoris

---

All you are really proving to me is its easier to propose poorly thought out changes then to come up with a solid plan to kill one.

---

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

---

That is the beauty of Eve, it's a crucible in which great minds are formed and the rest are ground to dust.

---

Originally by: Deja Thoris

---

A ship class was designed to fill just the niche you mentioned, the hic. I've not had trouble getting my hic or those of my friends onto supercarriers whether its through a jump gate, titan portal, even in some cases cloaking the damn thing up all day waiting to pounce. Yes, it requires effort, something I alluded to when I mentioned that these are the biggest and baddest ships in eve and should be harder to catch than the average raven.

I don't think they are more powerful in lowsec, true the methods of holding it down are reduced but then again, they can't hide under cyno jammers. It's give and take. I don't think lack of remote reps is a concern for supercarriers in lowsec either. If they get to the point where they need that rr then chances are they are toast. It would just be an inconvenice to refit em to self rep stupid amounts of armor or alternatively to jump em to 0.0 to get remote repped.

All you are really proving to me is its easier to propose poorly thought out changes then to come up with a solid plan to kill one.

---

Originally by: Bellum Eternus

---

Originally by: Deja Thoris

---

All you are really proving to me is its easier to propose poorly thought out changes then to come up with a solid plan to kill one.

---

Deja-

Just to clarify my position (and not speaking for Liang):

I don't think killing *one* SC in lowsec is an issue. At least not for me personally. That's doable. Very much so. It's trying to complete a kill when there are 4-6 SCs on the field all spider tanking that it gets nearly impossible to do without a *massive* increase in numbers and an almost guaranteed requirement of your own SCs as well.

---

Originally by: Liang Nuren

---

- Lack of doomsdays

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

Originally by: Liang Nuren

---

- Lack of doomsdays

---

If they allowed DDs in lowsec again would you quit whining?

---

Originally by: Amarr Supremacist

---

Yeah, it(Jaguar) almost has cruiser level tank and gank!

---

Originally by: Cappin Walka

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Neuts break spider tanks

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