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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 24 post(s) |
Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:27:00 -
[1261]
Originally by: Brunaburh
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Brunaburh
Originally by: Patri Andari Here is where so many of you beggars are missing the point. Learning skills are not like any other skills in the game. They are (as far as i can tell) the ONLY skills that act as a purely strategic investment.
Try Jury Rigging
Who trains that past basic rig access? It does even less than Learning skills...
Try building subsystems without that skill at 5...
So for the rare breed of T3 manufacturing, you train a skill that has two useful levels: III and V. I think you make my point even sharper - thanks!
In that case I recommend you to have a look at all the skills in the Mechanic skill tree, such as Capital Ship Construction, Battleship Construction, Cruiser Construction and so on... You see, all they do is enable you to build stuff.
BTW you need jury rigging IV for some T2 rigs as well.
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:27:00 -
[1262]
Originally by: Brunaburh
Originally by: Ranka Mei
Originally by: Brunaburh
Originally by: Patri Andari ...Jury Rigging
Who trains that past basic rig access? It does even less than Learning skills...
Why would you say such a thing? I trained it to Lv IV; and it's very useful; I can rig T2 Capacitor Control Circuits and such with it (in fact, I trained all rigging skills to Lv IV, so I can rig any and all rigs. And, as Caldari, I trained Shield Rigging to Lv V).
Sure the individual rigging skills you need IV (and can sometimes justify V) - but Jury Rigging has two hot points (as clarified above) LIII (you can now fit a rig) and L V (you can now build a subsystem). Hate to tell you if you trained Jury Rigging past III (and you don't build T3 subsystems) you wasted all those SP. WTF is that...
You missed hot-spot nr. IV. :) It gives you access to T2 rigs. I love T2 rigs. And I don't need to build T3 stuff per se (maybe in a few years or so), but I definitely want to fly it. And when it comes to shield boosters and such, one cannot have enough cap. In fact, 'There's no such thing as too much cap' should be tattoed on everyone's forehead. --
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Ebisu Kami
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:28:00 -
[1263]
Originally by: I'thari or leaving "learning" skill itself - it's tier 1 anyway.
No. Removing Learning skills would be mute, if you'd leave in the Learning Skill.
Originally by: I'thari only thing that consernes me in all this is possible lag.
Lag? From removing learning skills? Ok, I'll bite: How?
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Mihali
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:32:00 -
[1264]
Finally. Lots of friends are not playing cause the grind to learn these, now I think they'll come back.
Stop messing with my slack, pinko. Praise Bob! |
Zmey Crafter
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:41:00 -
[1265]
Fools. You all losing training speed.
Only with 5 in stat it will be as good as with learnings. With MAXed stat (14 as I remember) we losing 0.9 in stat if compare learning and "cool new bonus". It should be 13 points per stat to be present. Now it is plain robbery.
CCP, I hate You all. |
Don Chelli
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:42:00 -
[1266]
As I stated above learning SP should not be cancelled. But CCP led out with their new thoughts now it seems that they can't unring the bell anymore. But what about a 3rd way? What if threre would be BOTH ways possible in eve? The old one with the learning skill books and the new one without? Of course this needs to be balanced i.e. it could be handled like a rig where the new way has some other drawbacks. This would not cut something beloved out of eve but a new (tough) decision would be added to this wonderful game. And furthermore no one will be a looser, neither the 'learning faction' like me nor the capsuleers who think these skils are a waste nor CCP who can attrct more new players.
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Dagny Bronstein
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:46:00 -
[1267]
Am I the only one who had to laugh when noticing CCP's attempt at "expectation management".
CCP, if this change gets delayed to January being able to point out "we told you this might happen right there" won't save you.
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Shepard Book
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:47:00 -
[1268]
I do think this is the correct way to go and should help new people to the game.
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Ebisu Kami
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:50:00 -
[1269]
Originally by: Don Chelli As I stated above learning SP should not be cancelled. But CCP led out with their new thoughts now it seems that they can't unring the bell anymore. But what about a 3rd way? What if threre would be BOTH ways possible in eve? The old one with the learning skill books and the new one without? Of course this needs to be balanced i.e. it could be handled like a rig where the new way has some other drawbacks. This would not cut something beloved out of eve but a new (tough) decision would be added to this wonderful game. And furthermore no one will be a looser, neither the 'learning faction' like me nor the capsuleers who think these skils are a waste nor CCP who can attrct more new players.
:facepalm:
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Slevnin
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:52:00 -
[1270]
WOW! 72sp a hour lost boo woo! you get more than compensated for that you get to relocate 5,376,000 million Skill points any where you like. that more than covers the 72 sp an hour for 8 YEARS!!!!
you should be ashamed to be so greedy, the learning skills are a major set back when attempting to bring in new faces and voices to the game. Those that complain about this have likely never attempted to help a newer player or bring a friend into the game.
adapt or die
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Rymden
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:53:00 -
[1271]
I think CCP really need to open up re-map for everyone when the change is made.
I for one just re-mapped my attributes with partial trained learning skills. This meens my layout will be totally diffrent once they are removed and +12 is added to all attributes.
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:57:00 -
[1272]
Originally by: Shandir The boost long term players are asking for in exchange for their patience and dedication is that these points aren't attached to attributes. A player can allocate them against skills that they are not mapped for - almost all the long term players (and many of the shorter term players) will be doing this. Skills they no doubt trained at higher speed than average will be reallocated to skills they don't want to remap for (probably charisma-based) This is the bone you're being thrown in addition to getting effectively 6m free skillpoints. If you consider the rate at which you'd train those cross-attribute skills, it will outweigh the 70-whatever SP/h you're losing on optimal remaps (only).
Still can't agree with you on the 'free' stuff, but you're the first one to point out an actual valid boon to offset the 70 sp/h loss. Tug the reimbursed skillpoints away, like I plan to do, and they can later be applied towards a real long skill that you're horribly not mapped for.
So, at the end of the day it's all good. And a few months from now, people will remember learning skills like they remember training without a queue: as something of a distant past. --
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Brunaburh
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Posted - 2010.11.26 14:59:00 -
[1273]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana In that case I recommend you to have a look at all the skills in the Mechanic skill tree, such as Capital Ship Construction, Battleship Construction, Cruiser Construction and so on... You see, all they do is enable you to build stuff.
BTW you need jury rigging IV for some T2 rigs as well.
Damn that Jury Rigging skill...
/me considers going back and deleting incorrect posts...
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Tiligean
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:02:00 -
[1274]
Originally by: Rymden I think CCP really need to open up re-map for everyone when the change is made.
I for one just re-mapped my attributes with partial trained learning skills. This meens my layout will be totally diffrent once they are removed and +12 is added to all attributes.
Why does this change your plan? You likely remapped based on the skills you have and the skills you want - does having more attribute points across the board suddenly change what you wanted to do?
This is just asking for the corner piece of the birthday cake...
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:03:00 -
[1275]
Originally by: Slevnin WOW! 72sp a hour lost boo woo! you get more than compensated for that you get to relocate 5,376,000 million Skill points any where you like. that more than covers the 72 sp an hour for 8 YEARS!!!!
LOL. I appreciate you trying to catch up with the thread and all, but not the '8 years' bogosity again, please. :) We're kinda past that. --
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Rymden
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:10:00 -
[1276]
Originally by: Tiligean
Originally by: Rymden I think CCP really need to open up re-map for everyone when the change is made.
I for one just re-mapped my attributes with partial trained learning skills. This meens my layout will be totally diffrent once they are removed and +12 is added to all attributes.
Why does this change your plan? You likely remapped based on the skills you have and the skills you want - does having more attribute points across the board suddenly change what you wanted to do?
This is just asking for the corner piece of the birthday cake...
It does. I said I have partialy trained in learning. Say I have learning perception up +5 and no other learning skills trained. I then notice I need more int. so I remap so int and perc have the same value. +5 from perception is then taken away meening I will not have equal int. and perc.
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Ebisu Kami
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:13:00 -
[1277]
Originally by: Rymden It does. I said I have partialy trained in learning. Say I have learning perception up +5 and no other learning skills trained. I then notice I need more int. so I remap so int and perc have the same value. +5 from perception is then taken away meening I will not have equal int. and perc.
You get the equivalent of learning 5/5 hardwired into your toon by default.
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Ilhicamina
Minmatar Jian Products Engineering Group Blade.
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:14:00 -
[1278]
Second part of the gift:
A training queue that spans exactly the same period as one remap! =) (one year!) =)
PS: Everyone who is not happy, please quit, the game needs a reboot from 0 anyway to get rid of alliance inertia. --- insert witty remark here --- Proud pilot of the Harmless Barnacle II |
Ducky Love
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:16:00 -
[1279]
It also means that the default character gets attributes 20/20/20/20/19 (Charisma being one point lower), which looks very pretty and sensible and planned, which is always nice when it happens by accident.
I have read the blog but i am no math professor.. But wouldn't it be nicer if it was 5x20 being 100 with improved implants getting 125 attribute points?
Love the idea of getting more players to stick with the game.
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Luminak Narz
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:17:00 -
[1280]
A most EXCELLENT decision!!! Thank you for finally taking out such a useless part of the game. Stand strong, and don't let all the haters change your mind!!
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:21:00 -
[1281]
Originally by: Ebisu Kami
Originally by: Rymden It does. I said I have partialy trained in learning. Say I have learning perception up +5 and no other learning skills trained. I then notice I need more int. so I remap so int and perc have the same value. +5 from perception is then taken away meening I will not have equal int. and perc.
You get the equivalent of learning 5/5 hardwired into your toon by default.
He does have a point, though; if he just remapped lots of attribute points towards mem, to even out with perc, then after the 5/5 event suddenly his mem will be sky-high (and maybe too high for his taste). So, I think he's saying that, had he known this upfront, he wouldn't have 'robbed' his own perc to begin with.
Having said that, there's a real underlying flaw in a plan that lets you train learning skills with mem at '0'. :) So he might have addressed that issue in the first place. --
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Hallan De'estus
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:24:00 -
[1282]
OMG! Despite all the discussions I'd didn't believe that CCP would, actually, EVER, do this! And here I was ready to ask Sansha Klaws for a pony!
Bravo CCP!
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Odnam Moc
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:27:00 -
[1283]
Originally by: My Postman Tears of anger in my eyes right now.
Thank you CCP Zulu, thank you CSM. If count is correct there are 397 more skills to be removed, and i strongly suggest you thinking about a free titan for every noob.
I¦m too outraged to find any words and my fingers are shaking while typing.
Thanks that i¦m at work, if reading this at home i might have emo-rage quitted now. At least i will deside this at the weekend. If quitting i will let you know that you can have my stuff.
Usually i¦m a polite, friendly person but now i have to say:
F+++ you CCP, f+++ you all CSM, take my 5,3 million skillpoints, devide them and stick them up where the sun does¦nt shine, and after that all die in a fire (IG).
Nuff said.
So you admit you're against the change for merely emotional reasons?
Chalk up another vote for "I'm so hardcore I'm crying".
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Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:28:00 -
[1284]
Good Move CCP!
This is probably one of the best Christmast presents I'll get this year.
Now if you would just drop all this MT crap, my total faith in you would be restored once again.
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Marchocias
Snatch Victory
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:30:00 -
[1285]
Originally by: Vito Parabellum Not that fair at all, we olduns that sacrificed months to get maximized learning will lose on this deal because we did not have +12 when we started (means xp lost, compared to new newbies). So this evens the field and our sacrifice (fun,time,xp,money) is nullified. Also the cost of the learningbooks is being dismissed because "we had some use from them?". If we had had +12 from the start we wouldnt have needed them at all. But surprised I'm not, must get moaar playerbase (money)!
CCP has retroactively stolen all the fun you've had in the last few years. Please rearrange your lifestyle to reflect the fact that you should have been depressed all this time. ---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it). |
WisdomPanda
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:32:00 -
[1286]
I think everyone is missing the point here, so I will comment in points! Points rule.
1) When you are fresh off the boat (so to speak) you are rarely in a position to even know about learning skills, it's only typically through outside help or dumb luck that you see them and actually notice what they do.
2) The isk cost of the books can consume a lot of a newbies time, removing the skills means they are more liky to explore the world and newbie retention should (hopefully) go up.
3) If there are more newbies, there are more people now and in the future to interact/kill/scam/dry hump/whatever you do in your corp. This is a good thing, right? You do remember this is a MMO, right?
4) "Oh but now they'll all have BS V (or some other skill) now! /wrist /wrist /wrist" - Sorry to break it to you, but they've already put in the long hours to earn that skill. Bitter man is bitter, it seems.
5) The SP/hour lost isn't going to mean the end of the world. If CCP don't change their mind from reading the comments, then you could just buy better augs if it means that much to you. Everyone is going to be in the same boat remember...
6) Making EvE more newbie friendly does not make your ***** smaller. It was that size to start with.
You may now reply with blind rage, personal insults and cookies.
Mostly cookies. ----- Cheesecake, Natures ultimate weapon. |
KurnKuku
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:34:00 -
[1287]
Originally by: Marchocias
Originally by: Vito Parabellum Not that fair at all, we olduns that sacrificed months to get maximized learning will lose on this deal because we did not have +12 when we started (means xp lost, compared to new newbies). So this evens the field and our sacrifice (fun,time,xp,money) is nullified. Also the cost of the learningbooks is being dismissed because "we had some use from them?". If we had had +12 from the start we wouldnt have needed them at all. But surprised I'm not, must get moaar playerbase (money)!
CCP has retroactively stolen all the fun you've had in the last few years. Please rearrange your lifestyle to reflect the fact that you should have been depressed all this time.
I nearly fell off my chair laughing at this
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:36:00 -
[1288]
Originally by: Marchocias
Originally by: Vito Parabellum Not that fair at all, we olduns that sacrificed months to get maximized learning will lose on this deal because we did not have +12 when we started (means xp lost, compared to new newbies). So this evens the field and our sacrifice (fun,time,xp,money) is nullified. Also the cost of the learningbooks is being dismissed because "we had some use from them?". If we had had +12 from the start we wouldnt have needed them at all. But surprised I'm not, must get moaar playerbase (money)!
CCP has retroactively stolen all the fun you've had in the last few years. Please rearrange your lifestyle to reflect the fact that you should have been depressed all this time.
To Vito I can only say: if you're an 'oldun' who, after all those many years, are still troubled by having had to spend a few measly mil on a few skillbooks, way back when, then you must not be playing the game right. :) --
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Woohoo
Raptus Regaliter
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:39:00 -
[1289]
Originally by: RaTTuS So long 397 skills now we go down ....
arghhhhh
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Master Flakattack
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Posted - 2010.11.26 15:40:00 -
[1290]
Originally by: Sader Rykane Do you understand the difference between Total SP and Effective SP? Because until you do, you will never understand why her argument, and by extension your argument is relegated to the "Stupid Corner", which is also known as the "Relevant in 8 1/2 Years Corner".
Unless of course you're talking about the training slowly while training learning skills part compared to new players never having to train slowly at all. If you're talking about THAT... Well please do us a favor and just shoot yourself.
Please explain oh god of all math and logic, your definition of Total SP as opposed to Effective SP. I'd love to hear this.
I don't see what's so hard to understand. I am going to use some arbitrary values, as the concept is what I am trying to convey here. Let's say you, as an old character, started training at 500sp/hour. At max attributes, you train at 1000sp/hour. To get to that 1000sp/hour means you start at 500sp/hour and eventually end at 1000sp/hour. Now, you have 1 million skillpoints. That is the total you have in your learning tree.
Now imagine the system is changed, so new players start with full attributes and train at 1000sp/hour. Now you and the new players train at the same speed. You also get your 1 mil SP back to redistribute. Fair enough right? Not quite. When you were training your learning skills up at 500sp/hour, you were losing 500sp/hour. When you get up to 800sp/hour, you were still losing 200sp/hour. Skillpoints were lost over time when compared to what a new player will get.
Keep in mind there is a difference between not understanding what I'm saying and not agreeing with it. Please make sure to let me know which is the case next time, rather than simply calling me "stupid" for thinking of something you may not have accounted for.
Originally by: Torothanax Except those of us who took the time to max all our training skills, and are just now seeing a payoff. I think you guys need to come up with an extra bonus to benifit those of us who took the long term view. Give us our due, not just a nerf.
Originally by: Torothanax I've 85 mil sp. 5.4 mil is a cup in the bucket. I'm gettin hit with the nerf bat on all my future training, after taking a significantly longer time to train that 5.4 mil sp then it will take players now. It's not cool when you change the rules mid game. That's why I'm annoyed.
And yes it's a nerf. I will train slower afterward then I do now. Do the math on the soon to be removed 10% bonus.
Looks like Torothanax gets it. Though I personally am still of the impression that losing the learning skills is better for the game.
Originally by: qaz zaq Everyone is looking at this the wrong way. take 2 characters, I'll use mine. Toon #1 has learning to lvl 4's. and has 2214825 points in learning. Toon #2 has maed skils and has 5376000 sp's in learning.
Toon #2 will get 5376000 sp's to redo however he wants to any skills he wants. And will also have his attributes maxed at the new level. Wait, he already does have them maxed out, so effectively nothing changed.
Toon #1 will get 2214825 sp's to redo however he wants, and get Maxed out attributes also, which effectively gives him an equivilant of 5376000 in the old learning.
So, it seems that Toon#1 actually gets an EFFECTIVE total of sp's of the difference between 5376000 (which maxed out his new attributes and speeds any future learning curve) minus the 2214825 that he can respend. That would be effectively 3,161,175 new sp's, which is the amount needed to max his attributes from his old to his new level.
Qaz Zaz is heading in the right direction... sort of... but you can't just say 5.37mil - 2.21mil = 3.16mil. The actual number of SPs lost to time is less than half of that, due to the nature of exponential growth. Still, it is time lost that vets won't be getting back.
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