Originally by: Virtuozzo

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Damn, Dierdra took the words right out of my mouth.

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Originally by: Azia Khanid

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I find this change entirely neutral, but it's populist and gives CCP the chance to offer the illusion that the CSM is powerful and important. And that's what really matters.

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Originally by: Mallikanth

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Originally by: Azia Khanid

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I find this change entirely neutral, but it's populist and gives CCP the chance to offer the illusion that the CSM is powerful and important. And that's what really matters.

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If the above is sarcasm then fair enough

If not, then you really need to get out more and breath in some fresh air and calm down.

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Quote:

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The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.

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Originally by: Raquel Smith

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Epic thread will be Epic.

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Originally by: RaTTuS

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So long 397 skills now we go down ....

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Originally by: Grendelfreak

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Sorry if you already said this, but if we have multiple chars on an account do each char get the appropriate skillpoints or will it all go onto the highest SP char?

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Originally by: Gnulpie

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I don't understand why people make such a fuzz about learning skills.

You do it, you are done with it. Fine.


Getting rid of them, dumbing down EVE to lure more players in. Oh well, as long as it only removing learning skills and not dumbing down other, more vital parts of EVE then I'm okay with that. But it is a slippery slope.

It is the nature of EVE that you need to make decisions with consequences. Gettings into destroyers fast NOW or waiting a bit and training learning skills to that you can do things faster LATER. Decisions, with consequences.

Just be careful not to dumb down too much!

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Quote:

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The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.

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Originally by: Grimpak

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the problem about learning skills is, they are just a nuisance, because it's pretty much mandatory to learn them to a relatively high level.

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Originally by: Rian O'Shea

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I have all 5 learning skills. How the F can I now feel superior over other people CCP!

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Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane

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Yes, but, but, I had all these bitter-vet arguments for keeping the learning skills! With CCP going all rational on me, what am I supposed to do with those?

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Originally by: Gnulpie

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I don't understand why people make such a fuzz about learning skills.

You do it, you are done with it. Fine.


Getting rid of them, dumbing down EVE to lure more players in. Oh well, as long as it only removing learning skills and not dumbing down other, more vital parts of EVE then I'm okay with that. But it is a slippery slope.

It is the nature of EVE that you need to make decisions with consequences. Gettings into destroyers fast NOW or waiting a bit and training learning skills to that you can do things faster LATER. Decisions, with consequences.

Just be careful not to dumb down too much!

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Originally by: Jackie Fisher

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So if I understand the changes correctly three of my attributes will drop, one will stay the same one will increase.

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Quote:

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The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.

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Originally by: Gnulpie

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Originally by: Grimpak

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the problem about learning skills is, they are just a nuisance, because it's pretty much mandatory to learn them to a relatively high level.

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Pretty all skills are a nuisance.

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Originally by: KD LikesBoise

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This is lame and I have nothing but contempt for everyone who benefits from it. For years this let me stay well apace of my impatient lessers.

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Originally by: Jupix

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Removing learning skills is not dumbing EVE down, it's smarting it up. Training "nothing" for weeks on end before getting to actually train your character is stupid and drives newbies away.

I spent weeks on them and say, good riddance.

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Originally by: Tippia

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Maybe, but no other skill group is a nuisace purely for metagaming benefits ù and the more of that aspect gets cut out of the game, the better it will be. I don't particularly care about the reasoning; they're removing something that is of zero practical use for the character, that causes all kinds of start-up issues, that (no matter how much people play it up as one) is not a useful optional choice

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Originally by: RaTTuS

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So long 397 skills now we go down ....

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Originally by: price iit

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So can someone explain to me how me getting 12 points is a way to make up for this? when with all my learning skills i have 9.9, 9.9, 9.9, 9.9, and 7.7 attribute points. So i lose effectivly 36 attribute points. This is a big deal to me and my corp!

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Originally by: Grimpak

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Originally by: Jackie Fisher

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So if I understand the changes correctly three of my attributes will drop, one will stay the same one will increase.

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if I'm not mistaken, I think having all 5's on learning will mean pretty much the same, or less, as having 12 more atrib points on each stat?

5+5x1.1 I think?

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Originally by: Gripen

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You've seem to cover a lot of "whys" in this blog except most important one: WHY do we need to remove them at all? I'd really like to hear that from someone from dev-team if they are still reading this thread.

There was a lot of threads about learning skills and I was always following them very closely and never ever heard a single sane reason why they should be removed except self-instilled mantra about "mandatory useless skill training". But game designer should think deeper than average selfish player and I really hope you have some solid reasons behind this decision you can name here.

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Originally by: Battlecheese

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Why do companies always need to go soft and pander to the stupid mouth-breathers who bring in most of their income...

*sigh*.

v. disappointed.

You guys do realise that the whole skills bit used to be an interesting bit of the game, right? Back when you had to make choices, schedule skills so you'd be around to put another one on etc?

There are plenty of other _easy_ games out there. Why aren't you focusing on keeping yourselves differentiated?

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Originally by: F'nog

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Originally by: Stareatthesun

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No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down.

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Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S

Originally by: madBadger

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So I have a neural remap available now, if I use it does this mean that after the learning skills removed that it will be pointless? Will remaps be available after the learning skills are removed in December?

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Originally by: Rian O'Shea

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This change does not in any way affect our attribute remap, does it?

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Quote:

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òThis will also involve cancelling any and all market orders containing these skills. Contracts containing learning skills will have those skillbooks substituted for copies of the Pax Amarria

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Originally by: Corbeau Lenoir

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So you remove learning skills, which there nice and added flavour. What's next? Will you introduce instances and battlegrounds? Free faction battleships(officer fitted, of course) to the newbies? Max skill point to every character?

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Originally by: CCP Stillman

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Originally by: madBadger

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So I have a neural remap available now, if I use it does this mean that after the learning skills removed that it will be pointless? Will remaps be available after the learning skills are removed in December?

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Originally by: Rian O'Shea

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This change does not in any way affect our attribute remap, does it?

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Just to make clear, the only thing that's gonna change is what is specified in the dev blog.

We're not touching the attribute remap feature beyond the fact we're improving the UI of it a great deal.

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Originally by: CCP Stillman

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Originally by: madBadger

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So I have a neural remap available now, if I use it does this mean that after the learning skills removed that it will be pointless? Will remaps be available after the learning skills are removed in December?

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Originally by: Rian O'Shea

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This change does not in any way affect our attribute remap, does it?

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Just to make clear, the only thing that's gonna change is what is specified in the dev blog.

We're not touching the attribute remap feature beyond the fact we're improving the UI of it a great deal.

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Originally by: Mra Rednu

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Quote:

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òThis will also involve cancelling any and all market orders containing these skills. Contracts containing learning skills will have those skillbooks substituted for copies of the Pax Amarria

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.


Amarr victor

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Originally by: Tereliss Verr

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Does this mean then that learning implants are still valid?

P.S. Awesome idea btw, we need more people in this game, but I hope the lag wont get worse

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Originally by: CCP Hammer

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I saw a few questions about implants. Attribute boosting implants are not changing. All that is changing is listed in the blog.

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Originally by: Rex Rotham

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For all the bashing CCP takes, I think they do in an incredible job.

I was very impressed when CCP made the decision to implement the 24 hour learning queue, and I'm equally as impressed with their decision to remove learning skills.

To those who don't appreciate CCP, you have a gaming studio that actually LISTENS to what the player base wants. They obviously can't make everyone happy but some things are so overwhelmingly obvious that the majority of sensible players want it - this is one of those cases.

Great job CCP, stay awesome.

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Originally by: Rian O'Shea

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This change does not in any way affect our attribute remap, does it?

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Originally by: Marmios

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You mad because newer players wont be forced to train 3 months of worthless time and you had to? Learning skills added depth? wtf are you smoking ? Why dont you idiot just shut up?

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Originally by: CCP Stillman

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Originally by: Tereliss Verr

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Does this mean then that learning implants are still valid?

P.S. Awesome idea btw, we need more people in this game, but I hope the lag wont get worse

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I'll refer to CCP Hammer's post:

Originally by: CCP Hammer

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I saw a few questions about implants. Attribute boosting implants are not changing. All that is changing is listed in the blog.

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So yes, nothing is changing with implants nor the cerebral booster that comes with the new EVE box.

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Originally by: CCP Navigator

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CCP Greyscale reports that learning skills will go away. This change to learning mechanics is something that will affect every player so we encourage you to read more about it in his latest blog.

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Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton

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Originally by: Rian O'Shea

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This change does not in any way affect our attribute remap, does it?

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will put your max stat at 32 (15+12+5) instead of 33 (15+10+5)*1.1, and your secondary stat should be 26 (9+12+5) instead of 26.4 (9+10+5)*1.1

so I guess not "awesome" but I'm not really all that annoyed by it, I mean we used to not even be able to remap.

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Originally by: Evil Zeb

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not so impressed.
i have 6 accounts 4 of them will now train slower (33/25 split) and 1 will get its base charisma changed dispite for nearly 2 years me avoiding remaps as it dosnt help me.

thanks merry xmas to you too ccp

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Originally by: RM Odrade

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How long will we have to redistribute the SP? I am still saving up for all of the books needed to get into a carrier and even though 5.7M SP isn't a WHOLE lot, it's gonna be a nice start down that training path.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Evil Zeb

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not so impressed.
i have 6 accounts 4 of them will now train slower (33/25 split) and 1 will get its base charisma changed dispite for nearly 2 years me avoiding remaps as it dosnt help me.

thanks merry xmas to you too ccp

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On the other hand the reimbursed SP will mean that you have more total non-learning SP for a very long time indeed.

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Originally by: Tereliss Verr

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How does this effect the full set of +5's i have?

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Originally by: wizard87

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Something I'm unclear about:

Will remaps still be possible once per year as default?

If not, how do you find out your BASE attributes again?

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Originally by: Battlecheese

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You guys do realise that the whole skills bit used to be an interesting bit of the game, right? Back when you had to make choices, schedule skills so you'd be around to put another one on etc?

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Originally by: TheBlueMonkey

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Choices and consequences

There was the choice to learn all the learning skills to what ever level each player deemed fit.

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Originally by: Xodarapmis

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I've only been playing for 3 weeks. Based on my own judgement, I decided to concentrate on developing learning skills first.

I'm happy that the SP I spent will be refunded because it represents 988K out of 1.4M I've spent so far.

What I am not happy about, is that I've spent 9.2M ISK on these skills and it appears I won't be reimbursed for them. For characters that have played a while, this probably doesn't seem like much. But for me it represents about 75-85% of all the ISK I've made to this date.

I feel like I've wasted 3 weeks worth of missions with nothing much to show for it. My initial time that came with the game is almost up and I'm now reconsidering whether to subscribe.

I realise that you don't want to inject 1.6? 16? Trillion ISK into the economy and that it is difficult to draw a line if you reimburse some but not others. But for those of us where it represents such an enormous percentage of earnings to date, I would ask you to consider an equitible solution.

Many thanks.
SimParadox

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Originally by: RM Odrade

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How long will we have to redistribute the SP? I am still saving up for all of the books needed to get into a carrier and even though 5.7M SP isn't a WHOLE lot, it's gonna be a nice start down that training path.

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Originally by: Tippia

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Learning skills were never interesting ù they were a pointless metagaming mechanic that added nothing to the game. Learning them was complete balls, but completely necessary in order not to make the rest of the skill system balls as well. Now that they're gone, the skill system is all interesting and automatically non-ball:y again.

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Originally by: Akita T

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Figures.
Just as I have ~8 hours left to finishing the last of my L5 learning skill, the news hits

I'm a tiny bit miffed at the chosen addition value, 12 to each attribute.

Before the change, you had a max of (39 base + 25 basics + 25 advanceds + 25 implants)*1.1 learning = 125.4 max total.
After the change, you will have 39+60=99 base + 25 implants = 124 max total, or an overall loss of 1.4 attribute points.
Ok, it's not a HUGE drop, but its still a drop nevertheless.

IMO, they should have only removed the 10 attribute-based learnings and added 10 to each basic value, but left the "learning" skill in place (the only "oddball" one).
OR, they could add 12 to each attribute and give us 2 freely distributable unassigned attribute points (for a grand total of +0.6 max attribute points).

...

Oh well. Not like we could do much about it.

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Originally by: Xodarapmis

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I've only been playing for 3 weeks. Based on my own judgement, I decided to concentrate on developing learning skills first.

I'm happy that the SP I spent will be refunded because it represents 988K out of 1.4M I've spent so far.

What I am not happy about, is that I've spent 9.2M ISK on these skills and it appears I won't be reimbursed for them. For characters that have played a while, this probably doesn't seem like much. But for me it represents about 75-85% of all the ISK I've made to this date.

I feel like I've wasted 3 weeks worth of missions with nothing much to show for it. My initial time that came with the game is almost up and I'm now reconsidering whether to subscribe.

I realise that you don't want to inject 1.6? 16? Trillion ISK into the economy and that it is difficult to draw a line if you reimburse some but not others. But for those of us where it represents such an enormous percentage of earnings to date, I would ask you to consider an equitible solution.

Many thanks.
SimParadox

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Originally by: Akita T

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Before the change, you had a max of (39 base + 25 basics + 25 advanceds + 25 implants)*1.1 learning = 125.4 max total.

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Originally by: Superform

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Edited by: Superform on 25/11/2010 12:41:19
graph one is not working, the skills needed dont jump.. but the line does.. please explain

edit.. i'll explain a bit more, the number of skill points to fly a drake well or good should be a constant.. in the 3rd line it isnt..

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Originally by: Carniflex

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I have seen it asked few times, but no answer so far. What about those with base charisma 3 currently. Will all characters be converted into 20/20/20/20/19 or will we keep current base attributes and just get +12 added to each one we currently have ?

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Originally by: Wadaya

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Originally by: Akita T

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Figures.
Just as I have ~8 hours left to finishing the last of my L5 learning skill, the news hits

I'm a tiny bit miffed at the chosen addition value, 12 to each attribute.

Before the change, you had a max of (39 base + 25 basics + 25 advanceds + 25 implants)*1.1 learning = 125.4 max total.
After the change, you will have 39+60=99 base + 25 implants = 124 max total, or an overall loss of 1.4 attribute points.
Ok, it's not a HUGE drop, but its still a drop nevertheless.

IMO, they should have only removed the 10 attribute-based learnings and added 10 to each basic value, but left the "learning" skill in place (the only "oddball" one).
OR, they could add 12 to each attribute and give us 2 freely distributable unassigned attribute points (for a grand total of +0.6 max attribute points).

...

Oh well. Not like we could do much about it.

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The change wil give me : -.8 int, -.3 perc +.2 char -.2 will -.3 mem
But I still can't fix that with a remap because , hey, I'm Achura

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Originally by: Othran

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In general its a positive move and long overdue.

I haven't done the numbers yet but I have a gut feeling that if you've maxed out a single attribute (through remapping) for a specific training plan then you're going to be training slower. If my gut feeling is right then you might want to consider either a free remap or a remap on petition.

That's about the only criticism I have.

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Originally by: CCP Shadow

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I think we'd be better off with a troll shard.

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Originally by: Xodarapmis

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I feel like I've wasted 3 weeks worth of missions with nothing much to show for it. My initial time that came with the game is almost up and I'm now reconsidering whether to subscribe.

I realise that you don't want to inject 1.6? 16? Trillion ISK into the economy and that it is difficult to draw a line if you reimburse some but not others. But for those of us where it represents such an enormous percentage of earnings to date, I would ask you to consider an equitible solution.

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Originally by: Red lensman

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attribute booster's are getting a nerf as they used to get effected by the learning lv5 skill so a +4 implant used to give a +4.4 boost. so all implants should really given
a 10% boost to make up for the loss of the skill, or give 10 pounts and leave the lv5 learning skill boost running

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Originally by: Xodarapmis

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I've only been playing for 3 weeks. Based on my own judgement, I decided to concentrate on developing learning skills first.

I'm happy that the SP I spent will be refunded because it represents 988K out of 1.4M I've spent so far.

What I am not happy about, is that I've spent 9.2M ISK on these skills and it appears I won't be reimbursed for them. For characters that have played a while, this probably doesn't seem like much. But for me it represents about 75-85% of all the ISK I've made to this date.

I feel like I've wasted 3 weeks worth of missions with nothing much to show for it. My initial time that came with the game is almost up and I'm now reconsidering whether to subscribe.

I realise that you don't want to inject 1.6? 16? Trillion ISK into the economy and that it is difficult to draw a line if you reimburse some but not others. But for those of us where it represents such an enormous percentage of earnings to date, I would ask you to consider an equitible solution.

Many thanks.
SimParadox

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Originally by: Tonto Auri

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Some quick number crunching for everyone curious.

Present:
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (primary): 33pt.
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (secondary): 26.4pt.
Maximum effective learning speed, thus: 2772 SP/hour.
Efficiency of implants (+5 assuming top skills and optimal remap): 1.217391
Efficiency of a remap (minmax): 1.4

Future (bright or not - decide...):
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (primary): 32pt.
Maximum attainable effective attribute value (secondary): 26pt.
Maximum effective learning speed, thus: 2700 SP/hour.
Efficiency of implants (+5 assuming...): 1.2
Efficiency of a remap (minmax): 1.(36)

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Originally by: thatbloke

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Something I haven't seen asked yet: is there some limit (time, or otherwise) on when these refunded SPs have to be used by? I'm thinking here in terms of inactive accounts - i have a friend with about 3mil SP in learning whose account is currently inactive, will he need to activate his account to get this benefit and will there be any kind of time limit on having to redeem the points we are refunded?

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Originally by: Jupix

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Removing learning skills is not dumbing EVE down, it's smarting it up. Training "nothing" for weeks on end before getting to actually train your character is stupid and drives newbies away.

I spent weeks on them and say, good riddance.

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Originally by: CCP Adida

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The male thread was locked because the discussion turned into transsexuals and man boobs.

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Originally by: Tonto Auri

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Originally by: Red lensman

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attribute booster's are getting a nerf as they used to get effected by the learning lv5 skill so a +4 implant used to give a +4.4 boost. so all implants should really given
a 10% boost to make up for the loss of the skill, or give 10 pounts and leave the lv5 learning skill boost running

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You want to train EVEN faster? You'll be training faster anyway, unless you've had +10 from skills.

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Originally by: Jade Mandukar

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So what about those that are selling and buying characters?

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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On the flipside, I'm guessing you feel somewhat cheated out of the money, because if you'd known this earlier, you would have the same advantages in a month's time without having spent the money for it. That does kinda suck, and we're sorry that's happened to a few people.

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Originally by: TheBlueMonkey

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The vocal few do not represent the opinions of the majority.
Basing decisions on that is a terrible idea.

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Originally by: Azia Khanid

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Which bit in particular makes you think I need fresh air and to calm down?

Or are you just spouting that "u mad bro?" thing that the internet likes so much because you have basically given up on thinking for yourself?

Feel free to ignore what I type and respond to what you wish I had typed.

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Originally by: Saul Dhampir

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Joy. What next? Removing the crafting system and replacing it with a nice simple buy from NPC vendor one?

If I wanted a simple console game I'd go buy a console.

Way to go SOE.

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Originally by: Mikokoel

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Will the SP of partially learned Learning Skills also be refunded?
I know partially learning isn't any useful, but I just want to know...

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Originally by: Rick Rothsar

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Someone said they're losing 640k SP training per year under the new plan.
640k SP / 5m SP reimbursement (recovered SP previously tied up in learning skills) = 7.8 YEARS before you actually lose SP over what your current SP pace.
I certainly hope you're not butthurt over how much SP your character is going to be losing starting in September of 2018.

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Originally by: Rick Rothsar

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Someone said they're losing 640k SP training per year under the new plan.

640k SP / 5m SP reimbursement (recovered SP previously tied up in learning skills) = 7.8 YEARS before you actually lose SP over what your current SP pace.

I certainly hope you're not butthurt over how much SP your character is going to be losing starting in September of 2018.

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Originally by: thatbloke

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Something I haven't seen asked yet: is there some limit (time, or otherwise) on when these refunded SPs have to be used by? I'm thinking here in terms of inactive accounts - i have a friend with about 3mil SP in learning whose account is currently inactive, will he need to activate his account to get this benefit and will there be any kind of time limit on having to redeem the points we are refunded?

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Originally by: ForgePriceRunner

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Today I have 15 base points + 10 in skills + 5 from implants times 1.1 from the skill "Learning".
That equals to 33 points of Perception.
With the new system it'll be 15 base points + 12 + 5 from implants, equals 32.

Same goes for Willpower old was 26.4 new will be 26.

This way you effectively have cut my max training ability from 2,772 SP/hour to 2,700 SP/hour.

Why not just add 13 base points instead of 12 and that way keep everyone happy ?

Or as someone else mentioned stick to 12 and grant an extra 2 points to be added as the player pleases

Its not like that those extra base points for each attribute is gonna make the player base insta train all the skills.
But with this change you'll make it take even longer to train the skills you want.

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Quote:

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This will also involve cancelling any and all market orders containing these skills. Contracts containing learning skills will have those skillbooks substituted for copies of the Pax Amarria

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Originally by: I'thari

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Originally by: Tonto Auri

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Originally by: Red lensman

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attribute booster's are getting a nerf as they used to get effected by the learning lv5 skill so a +4 implant used to give a +4.4 boost. so all implants should really given
a 10% boost to make up for the loss of the skill, or give 10 pounts and leave the lv5 learning skill boost running

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You want to train EVEN faster? You'll be training faster anyway, unless you've had +10 from skills.

---

Yes, because now I'll train as if I'd have 5/4 skills instead, I didn't learn those skills to ratin slower, you know... and while it's some 2-3% drop - there are skills that give you same 2% advantage and take weeks, still people train them. What if CCP decided to nerf some autocanon specialization 5 same way?

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Originally by: Rick Rothsar

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Someone said they're losing 640k SP training per year under the new plan.

640k SP / 5m SP reimbursement (recovered SP previously tied up in learning skills) = 7.8 YEARS before you actually lose SP over what your current SP pace.

I certainly hope you're not butthurt over how much SP your character is going to be losing starting in September of 2018.

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Originally by: KurnKuku

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Please please don't let the CSM whinge you into reversing this great idea.

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Originally by: Akita T

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20/20/20/20/19 = BAD !!!
20/20/20/20/20 = GOOD !

Rabble rabble OCD rabble !

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Originally by: Mikokoel

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Will the SP of partially learned Learning Skills also be refunded?
I know partially learning isn't any useful, but I just want to know...

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Originally by: Rivqua

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Question. I currently still have 50-100K SP in my redistribution pool. Am I safe keeping them there, and if I get 2M extra from my learning sp, I will end up with 2.1M, or will you just set the redist pool to == learning, meaning, there is a risk of loosing some of the current redist SP ?

- Riv

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