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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Nebulanix
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Posted - 2005.01.13 14:51:00 -
[121]
I like the Mega even if I dont have one yet. Helped alot of friends into one to hear and read post like this. So here is the real question. Are they still worth the price of 100 mil to use or do I want to fly something that can do damage for all situations. I agree with those who like to think about their setups and situations. It makes it much more interesting. For the other ships.. since they remain constant they can be preped for when in fleet combat. Ive been flying a Dom now for... 7-8 months. Trying to get my skills up before I make that leap into a tier 2. Only thing is that it bugs the heck out of me to get dot for a 425 railgun at 40-30k and not any closer... Blasters.... Yes you go serious damage but for how long? NPCing with them is not big deal, but you need serious cap when in fleet situations, because someone is there to suck you dry. Yes it is a drone ship and they do good damage, but for once I would like to see some improvements with fitting without waiting for lvl 5 something or other. As it stands investment wise. My caldari skills are being trained up, as they can do damage with half the skill levels that a gallente has to train. Like I said before.. I would love a Mega, but at the cost of what?  
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Nadec Ascand
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Posted - 2005.01.13 15:21:00 -
[122]
yes somehow i quite agree with others who said that mega is balanced and is a brainstorm :)
I like my megatron even if im caldari i can fly a raven but if i dont need too i wont ...
Atm the pb is there is some ubber ship and other that are only good...
And im in the part of only good ...
Raven and apoc arma can tank and fire any other ship can do that? no...
Yeah im caldari... and yeah im flying a megatron...
Why coz maybe now only caldary are tough enough to fly those and evryone use caldari ship...
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2005.01.13 15:43:00 -
[123]
The real issues are 2:
1) Loka's point: The "Jack of All Trades" characteristics of the Caldari Amarr BS vs the likes of Megathron which is balanced when it comes to the "different fitting for each purpose" doctrine.
2) How close range combat (especially on gallente ships, not only BS but cruisers too) falls out with current EVE PvP mechanics and the tactics involved.
MWD sig penalty on BS and cruiser no longer allows the Close Range pilot to manually navigate to minimise damage from turret ships like he did during the older days, infact it works in the opposite way.
Smartbomb changes, Torp Hps, Missile distance with mouseover, Missile not launching from front of ship, severely worsen a close range ship's ability to counter missile damage.
From the old days in EVE close range has been the most User Skill demanding aspect of small scale pvp: Manual Navigation, Manual Orbiting (until orbit fix), Sbomb Timing, Cap MicroManagement, Diverse Fitting... but from those days till today this aspect of play has mostly suffered nerf after nerf and the sad part is that most of the time such nerfs were intended for other reasons but CCP simply lacked the perception to see how other things were affected.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.01.13 15:44:00 -
[124]
I'd rather see some small changes done to the hybrid guns rather than the Gallente ships... the changes being: 1/ small reduction of the powergrid needed to fit the turrets, and 2/ small (10-15%) boost of the damage ... with everything else left as it is.
This way you'd get what people are asking for, more free grid left on the Gallente ships with their guns fitted... and relatively high damage done with the weapon which uses serious amounts of cap for it... but a (good imo) side-effect would be, the rails would become slightly more viable weapon on those Caldari ships which are supposed to use them, but aren't given any real incentive with their grid that's even smaller than what Gallente get, and no useful bonus to the rails. So, changing the guns rather than the ships would hopefully allow to kill two birds with one stone, rather than just one... :/
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Loka
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Posted - 2005.01.13 16:05:00 -
[125]
I still remember the time when CCP said they would reduce the PG needed on 425mm from 2750 pg to 2500 and the 350mm having only 2000 pg requirements on Test server.
together with probably neutronguns PG reduced from 2750 to 2250 and a 15-20% capusage reduction of all Blasters.
That would be an awsome help for the Gallente/Caldari pilots.
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Dead or Alive
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Kiithnaras
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Posted - 2005.01.13 16:13:00 -
[126]
In response to the first few posts (didn't care to read everything): Yes, minmatar ship and projectile rebalances are being looked into (finally!). Gallente ships also seem to be few and far between in 0.0, because they seem to lack the necessary pvp capabilities. Ravens, Scorps, Apocs, and Geddons populate 90% of the pvp fleets. A Dommy or Typhoon might only be used as Drone support, a Tempest or Megathron for artillery fire-support and anti-frigate (atc's and blasters are great for them).
Missiles DO NOT NEED NERFING. You need to get wise and know how to defeat them with SB's and defenders (They need to have an automatic hostile missile reaqcuisition or something while they're active. Having small swarms of them buzz around uselessly after taking out the closest missile is devastating).
It also might be wise to conceive some form of missle-lock jammers (similar to chaff and flare systems on current real-life anti-missile systems) with each level of missile having different lock strengths (i.e. rocket=1, torp=2, light=4, heavy=3, cruise=3).
For dreadnoughts, the devs are also probably considering loading Citadel Torps onto them. These should be the most devastating of all missiles and akin to a tactical nuke. their launcher should take twice that of a siege launcher to refire such that the normalized damage-ROF ratio is still incredibly high, and the cit-torps themselves should have a 3-5km blast radius with distance-based damage scaling (closer=big ow. farther=was that supposed to hurt?)
Rebalance and General Idea thread. Feel free to respond or post your own ideas. |
JoCool
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Posted - 2005.01.13 16:19:00 -
[127]
The (closerange)damage edge Gallente ships had was taken away, thus they are obsolete for any form of combat. Anything the Dominix or Megathron can do can be done better by another ship.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.01.13 16:48:00 -
[128]
Anything besides launching heavy drones, but people don't care about drones, they just want to use a dominix like you use every other ship in the game... 
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JoCool
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Posted - 2005.01.13 16:56:00 -
[129]
Are you saying the Dominix is balanced because of 3 poobish drones more ? 'Scuse me but that made me laugh :)
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.01.13 17:02:00 -
[130]
No, it's not balanced because it has a useless bonus that only helps people who are hellbent on doing most of the damage their DRONESHIP does with guns.
Instead of that drones should do more damage, and the Dominix should have some kind of serious bonus that makes drone-usage worthwhile, like 10% more drone damage...
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Nalamayh5
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Posted - 2005.01.13 17:13:00 -
[131]
Bring out the nerf bat and hit amarr and caldari BSs with it, HARD!
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.01.13 17:17:00 -
[132]
We should focus on making things that aren't good enough better insead of nerfing things that are good.
Who wants to play a game where all ships suck? 
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Panzer
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Posted - 2005.01.13 17:36:00 -
[133]
 Originally by: Darken Two
Originally by: Panzer
Where the heck was I asking to fit 7 neutrons and tank? Sorry but what I was saying is that you can always get better damage and a better tank using ions than neutrons. You don't see a problem with that?
LOL Panzer not aimed at you dude, some other guy was complainin that he had not grids left to tank after fittin 7 neutrons.
oh sorry 
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BDVQueen
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Posted - 2005.01.13 17:39:00 -
[134]
What about a repairer bonus on the Dominix, as per the Brutix?
That will not make the ship totally dependent on drones, but would make it a very durable BS which doesn't necessarily kill everything in under 30 seconds.... isn't something like that good for BS combat?
As far as the Megathron... I can't fly one, so my opinion doesn't count for much... but i think the problem is with hybrid guns rather than the ship: they use way too much powergrid, their tracking is not that hot, and they devour capacitor like a fat man does with seconds.
PS
Megathron is sexy.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.01.13 18:09:00 -
[135]
Dominix can already tank very well, the problem with it is just that drones aren't powerful enough.
I think the Dominix should have a second more radical drones bonus, something like +10% drone damage per level or whatever.
15 Heavy drones with maximum skill only do about 200 damage in a second. Together with the resists that simply isn't enough to seriously damage anything.
Also drones were clearly meant to be as fast or even faster then missiles originally, however, missiles speed was increased significantly while drone speed remains at it's original level.
Drone damage should be way higher to begin with.
Droneships should get a Bonus to drone damge.
And drone range should only be limited by your sensors.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.01.13 18:22:00 -
[136]
Edited by: j0sephine on 13/01/2005 18:22:27
"15 Heavy drones with maximum skill only do about 200 damage in a second. Together with the resists that simply isn't enough to seriously damage anything."
Uhmm let's put that in some perspective?
(against the natural resistances of shield/armour)
* 15x Ogre drones, drone skills maxed: ~235 hp/sec
* 7x 425mm rails, all tech.1 gunnery skills maxed and 25% damage bonus from Gallente battleship skill: ~160 hp/sec
* 7x Ion blaster cannon, also with the skills maxed and the damage bonus: ~235 hp/sec
so, you have the tier.1 battleship which by your own words "can already tank very well" and which matches damage output of tier.2 Gallente battleship with its drones alone... and that's not good enough, you want that damage to be 50% higher or even more? o.O
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Doc Brown
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Posted - 2005.01.13 18:32:00 -
[137]
Well, after seeing this graph:
My jaw just droped. Sure the Neutron is the highest, but the area underneath the curve is the lowest, so it's the most restricted in useage.
I think that equalizing the areas under each gun's curve would go a long way to balancing. After all, the area is the damage output over range. Those with the highest area are the most versitle and those with the lowest are the least. IMHO the slightly higher peak for the neutron is far weaker than the huge area contained by the mega pulse.
(To find the true area, you'll have to take the intregral for each weapons graph.)
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There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations. |
Noriath
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Posted - 2005.01.13 19:39:00 -
[138]
You fail to take into account that gun damage can be boosted by skills, ship bonueses, modules, ammunition used. The damage output is much higher because you have not factored in all of that. Also railguns simply have low DPS.
1. Drones take almost a minuite to travel 40km, you get shot at during that entire time. If you have to run while your drones are already on the way you have to leave them behind.
2. Drones can be shot down quite easily. A single smartbomb can whipe out an entire squad costing several millions and taking up 3500m¦ of drone space. A single smartbomb renders any ship 100% immune to drone atack.
3. Drones are slow. Heavy drones don't go faster then between 700-1000m/s Since they have to Orbit at 1km in order to use their weapons they can only atack very slow moving targets. Medium and light drones that move faster do significantly less damage.
4. Drones cannot be repaired in space, even the ship with the biggest dronebay can only carry 30 heavy drones. Once they are destroyed or too damaged to fight a pure Droneship becomes defenseless. It is easier to destroy all drones a droneship can carry then it is to destroy the ship.
5. Drones are stupid. They simply don't know how to fight, when you order them to retreat they do it in a straight line and usually end up getting shot down even faster. When you don't give them specific orders they don't do anything, or act all on their own instead of as a squad.
6. Drones have extremly limited range. Especially since they take so long to get to a target and then can't be rescued if they come under fire the only really effective way to use them is to deploy them right next to your target.
Overall the disadvantages of Drones are just too great to make them overly efficient. Also their DPS simply does not compare to that of the best weapons in the game.
I mean seriously, if drones were that amazing why isn't the Dominix the greatest ship in the game? Ahh, that's right, drones suck.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.01.13 20:21:00 -
[139]
"You fail to take into account that gun damage can be boosted by skills, ship bonueses, modules, ammunition used. The damage output is much higher because you have not factored in all of that. Also railguns simply have low DPS."
Perhaps you missed the relevant part in my post: the damage calculation included all tech.1 gunnery skills maxed and 25% damage bonus from Gallente battleship skill. and the antimatter ammo i.e. as much damage as you can get. In other words yes, i did take into account everything you can use to increase the damage 'for free' (before you start gimping your defenses by throwing in the damage mods) just like it's with the drones.
And while railguns are indeed nothing great damage wise, the same cannot be said about the blasters... and you're overlooking that drone damage is equal to 7 blaster cannons with maxed out skills, antimatter ammo and lvl.5 Gallente battleship bonus, i.e. as much damage as you can get from the battleship that's a class higher than your own. And you don't pay the cap to keep this damage output running. And you still can add to that damage with actual guns of your battleship.
Plus, note how practically all your complaints about speed and range of heavy drones also apply to the battleship with blaster setup. So basically, you want to do 50% or more damage than a blasterthron, without their cap usage and without the risk of throwing your ship withing close range of the enemy.
That's insane.
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Darken Two
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Posted - 2005.01.13 21:12:00 -
[140]
That graph is just retarded. The main reason being no matter how much you got your skills up you cannot have as many neutrons on a mega as an apoc or arma pilot can have megapulses.
And yea I think Megathrons are balanced as well but if everyone wants to play the uber ship game then make the mega uber as well.
As to the people who think missiles are alright, I dont think a frickin torpedo is supposed to hit a frig and neither should a cruise missile. If large guns cant hit frigs dont see why huge missiles should hit them.
Why dont you just DIE DIE DIE !!!!
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Gierling
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Posted - 2005.01.13 21:12:00 -
[141]
I don't think bonus switching on the Thron makes sense... its clearly a gunship and it needs both bonii.
I DO however think that rails and blasters need love... a modest reduction in fitting reqs would give a little breathing room.
Honostly I'm not looking for a jack of all trades, but it would be nice if a mega setup wasnt tailored to exclusive situation. Its good that its great at one thing... but it would be nice if it could be great at one thing and ok at another.
As far as the Dominix, give it a resistance bonus, armour bonus, or armour rep efficiency bonus.
Bastards we are lest Bastards we become. |
RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.01.13 21:17:00 -
[142]
Edited by: RollinDutchMasters on 13/01/2005 21:19:45
Right now the dominix is an excellent tier 1 battleship. It hits harder then anything bar an armageddon and can sustain a XL shield tank for an extended period of time.
If you take the turret damage bonus away from it, it will be a drone carrier in an environment where drones are a secondary weapon at best. You will have substansially reduced the number of viable setups that it can use and given it basically nothing in return - 25% increase on drone damage is almost nonexistant compared to a 25% increase on turret damage.
Right now drones are a secondary weapon system. Changing the turret damage bonus to a near-worthless drone bonus will make the dominix deserve its reputation as an underpowered combat battleship.
The problem with gallente ships is the megathron, not the dominix. Leave it alone. Originally by: Noriath
15 Heavy drones with maximum skill only do about 200 damage in a second. Together with the resists that simply isn't enough to seriously damage anything.
200 DpS is a very generous estimate. You are right in that they are not a primary source of damage, and if you attempt to change that by removing the turret damage bonus, all you will do is make it impossible for turret setups to break heavy tanks. It will essentially force the dominix to be a nosferatu ship or nothing, instead of the wide variety of setups that can be used today.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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Shyamalan
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Posted - 2005.01.13 21:28:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Noriath
We should focus on making things that aren't good enough better insead of nerfing things that are good.
Who wants to play a game where all ships suck?
no-one, obviously, but i think people do want to play a game where ships require thought to setup, instead of just being able to tank, max dmg, max cap etc. all in one ship. It would make BS pvp engagements far more varied and exciting...
atm, amarr and and caldari BSs can do almost everything at once, which is stupid...
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.01.13 21:55:00 -
[144]
So if everything that isn't a Setup that uses the 25% gun bonus can't break an Apoc tank wouldn't that essentially make every other setup then guns worthless against that kind of tank?
I want a droneship that can derive most of it's damage output from drones. I'm sick of drones just being this litle extra-damage sideshow...
And for those people who think that drones are so amazing that they kill everything and are better then all guns: Maybe it wouldn't hurt to much to consider the fact that all ships have some drones and can add to thier dps with them...
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RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.01.13 22:01:00 -
[145]
Edited by: RollinDutchMasters on 13/01/2005 22:02:12
Originally by: Noriath
So if everything that isn't a Setup that uses the 25% gun bonus can't break an Apoc tank wouldn't that essentially make every other setup then guns worthless against that kind of tank?
Nosferatu setups can be effective if they can survive long enough to drain cap (which is basically impossible against an apoc, since they can tank your drones with one repairer, and would be able to do so still with a damage bonus).
I very rarely use setups in PvP that do under 500 DpS, although thats mainly a preference for watching battleships desintegrate. I would say that any non-EW setup incapable of overpowering the tanking of an Apoc is not really worth using.
As for your drones-only dream, that is basically impossible with the current drones. Perhaps when the ultra-heavy drones are released.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.01.13 22:09:00 -
[146]
"Maybe it wouldn't hurt to much to consider the fact that all ships have some drones and can add to thier dps with them..."
As long as you keep in mind a regular battleship has enough space in their drone bay for just 6 drones, and that the difference between 6 and 15 (+ another 15 as backup) is quite noticeable, sure. ^^
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Captain Rod
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Posted - 2005.01.13 22:47:00 -
[147]
Er hmm. I think ive already posted on the probs with the mega more than once. The pg is gimped on long range and short range guns but agree you can play about to get a set up that works.
The fact of the matter is Gallente has 2 specialisations for their long range rails and short range blasters, with only 1 battleship to put them on. It would be great if there was a separate blasterthron and sniperthron. ie blasterthron had a MWD bonus similar to thorax and sniperthron a range bonus etc but maybe that would be too predictable. The ship DOES need fixing...or just stop tempting us with neutron blasters that are ineffective.
And the Domi? Well the extra drones are all well and good for ratting i guess however another drone bonus? Have not drones always been countered by a single EW med slot mod? (correct me if Im wrong, if Im right shoot me for betraying Gall Domi pilots) No matter how many drones you have aint gonna help. Certainly wont help lag either i expect (ok I'll stop whining and waffling now).
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.01.13 22:50:00 -
[148]
Uhm, yea, for an armor tank without launcher hardpoints 9000 powergrid instead of between 15000 and 20000 is a quite noticable difference as well.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.01.13 23:07:00 -
[149]
"Uhm, yea, for an armor tank without launcher hardpoints 9000 powergrid instead of between 15000 and 20000 is a quite noticable difference as well."
True, that's why i think it'd benefit from that suggested tweak to powergrid requirement of hybrid turrets... it'd give the Gallente ships some room for more flexibility with setups? ^^;
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.01.13 23:18:00 -
[150]
I don't want just another gunship that can use drones for extra damage though, I want a droneship that can use guns for extra damage.
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