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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.01.13 23:23:00 -
[151]
Edited by: j0sephine on 13/01/2005 23:25:13
"I don't want just another gunship that can use drones for extra damage though, I want a droneship that can use guns for extra damage."
Well but considering how a set of 15 heavy drones well outdamages any guns you could put on it, that's pretty much what it already is? Most of your damage comes from the drones, the guns just add to it and tip the scale enough to break the other guys' tank. (unless you go all out with the damage mods obviously but that's option not obligatory setup, for those who'd rather have gunship out of it not the drone ship) And if the powergrid usage was lowered, you'd have enough resources left to tank your ship as well. o.O;
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RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.01.13 23:29:00 -
[152]
 Originally by: j0sephine
Edited by: j0sephine on 13/01/2005 23:25:13
"I don't want just another gunship that can use drones for extra damage though, I want a droneship that can use guns for extra damage."
Well but considering how a set of 15 heavy drones well outdamages any guns you could put on it, that's pretty much what it already is? Most of your damage comes from the drones, the guns just add to it and tip the scale enough to break the other guys' tank. (unless you go all out with the damage mods obviously but that's option not obligatory setup, for those who'd rather have gunship out of it not the drone ship) And if the powergrid usage was lowered, you'd have enough resources left to tank your ship as well. o.O;
Dual 250mm Protos + 4-7 damage mods = 400-450 DpS from turrets alone. Most of the damage comes from the guns, the drones are useful additions because they can add explosive and EM damage to your output, not because of the sheer amount of firepower they bring to the table.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.01.13 23:35:00 -
[153]
"Dual 250mm Protos + 4-7 damage mods = 400-450 DpS from turrets alone."
Yeah, that's why i put that part about 'going all out with the damage mods' in that post -.^
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Nadec Ascand
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Posted - 2005.01.13 23:45:00 -
[154]
if u do so (put 7 dmg mod)
u have no way to tank and gonna be owned by any caldari or ammar around... coz they gonna tank ur dmg and by the time u can start beating them ur thorn apart...
Give Megatron a way to be competitive against other BS.
I dont want to see my 100m megatron unable to beat a tier 1 battleship anyway i use it.
I understand well that i cant own evryone and cant beat evrything but i should be able to do so any noob with an apoc can pod me and even with a 10m sp char i cant find a way to beat an apoc...
Yeah im caldari... and yeah im flying a megatron...
Why coz maybe now only caldary are tough enough to fly those and evryone use caldari ship...
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RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.01.14 00:18:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
if u do so (put 7 dmg mod)
u have no way to tank and gonna be owned by any caldari or ammar around... coz they gonna tank ur dmg and by the time u can start beating them ur thorn apart...
Give Megatron a way to be competitive against other BS.
I dont want to see my 100m megatron unable to beat a tier 1 battleship anyway i use it.
I understand well that i cant own evryone and cant beat evrything but i should be able to do so any noob with an apoc can pod me and even with a 10m sp char i cant find a way to beat an apoc...
6x Dual 250mm
1x XL Clarity
2x Hardener
1x Warp Disruptor
1x Heavy Electrochemical w/800s
4x Mag Stab II
3x Mag Stab II/Backup Array II/Tracking Enhancer IIs
Look jimmy, a tanked ship with 7 damage mods. Whodathunkit.
After thinking about it a bit, I think the most elegant solution to the dominix would be to change nothing but apply the damage bonus to hybrids of all sizes.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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Nadec Ascand
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Posted - 2005.01.14 00:22:00 -
[156]
then fire and active once ur XL shield then look at... well look nothing u cant see what u have no more capacitor...
Yeah im caldari... and yeah im flying a megatron...
Why coz maybe now only caldary are tough enough to fly those and evryone use caldari ship...
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RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.01.14 00:24:00 -
[157]
Edited by: RollinDutchMasters on 14/01/2005 00:24:30
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
then fire and active once ur XL shield then look at... well look nothing u cant see what u have no more capacitor...
Quote:
1x Heavy Electrochemical w/800s
The tank will hold out against a great deal of punishment as long as you have charges.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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Nadec Ascand
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Posted - 2005.01.14 00:26:00 -
[158]
i know and i also know that going from 30km to 10km use 1 800 cap and that i have to use one evry 20sec...
pls dont explain me how to fit my tron i know...
And i far away prefer my modal electron blaster than fit dual 250...
Yeah im caldari... and yeah im flying a megatron...
Why coz maybe now only caldary are tough enough to fly those and evryone use caldari ship...
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RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.01.14 00:30:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
i know and i also know that going from 30km to 10km use 1 800 cap and that i have to use one evry 20sec...
pls dont explain me how to fit my tron i know...
And i far away prefer my modal electron blaster than fit dual 250...
That is a dominix setup. A megathron wouldnt have the CPU to shield tank.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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Nadec Ascand
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Posted - 2005.01.14 00:33:00 -
[160]
i appologize so i dont fly dominix and wont discuss of it so 
Yeah im caldari... and yeah im flying a megatron...
Why coz maybe now only caldary are tough enough to fly those and evryone use caldari ship...
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Lorth
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Posted - 2005.01.14 01:28:00 -
[161]
Edited by: Lorth on 14/01/2005 01:33:58
I would have to agree with RDM, the domi is a very usefull ship if you set it up right.
The mega does have some problems.
Even with maxed fitting skills I can't fit out a set up with 7 named electrons without having serious cpu problems. Not to mention, even after fitting out with op of the line named gear, and hardly any tank, I still can't tank as well, or do as much damage as the majority of the BS's out there.
Considering that I'm using all named gear, have maxed fitting skills and hardly any tank I should be able to fit the smallest guns on my ship easily...
Blasters are nice when your pretty certain of landing on top of your target. Though they are seriously out classed by megapulse. Yes pulse need to be nerfed. Considering they do more damage then ions, at better range, with less cap, and acually fit on thier intended ship. Add thier uber tracking (look at how far hammer graph extends into thier optimal) and you have the hardest hitting gun, at the most usefull PVP ranges. And yes I fly amar ships, and yes its so I can use the uber pulse guns. Not to mention I have the best tank in the game, which I can run forever.
Rails are only ok, though again you run into serious fitting problems. Which I suppose is the bain of every big gun set up. Ok, they are actually ok and don't feel like I'm in a flying loot can
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Clipped Wings
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Posted - 2005.01.14 01:41:00 -
[162]
Istn't it kind of a tell-tale sign that all effective Gallente BS setups, barring an extremely long-range sniperthron, are based on cap charges?
Maybe I'm just peevish at the prospect of being unable to run 1 repairer + guns for extended periods of time in a PVP environment, but I don't see cap charges being a prerequisite for neither Apocs, Geddons or Ravens - the three most used PVP BS'es?
Am I just pvp'ing in the wrong end of EVE?
Is there a place far, far from Syndicate where Megathrons, Dominixes, and for that matter, Typhoons and Tempests roam the skies?
Am I playing on the same server as all those saying that there's nothing wrong with tbe Gallente BS'es, and there's no need for further balancing in the EVE BS'es?
It'd be nice to see a stat from the EVE dev team showing how many Ravens, Geddons, Apocs and scorps are currently in space, compared to any other BS type. I have a feeling I know the answer to that already.
Adn tbh, out of 8 battleships...if 4 of them make up 90% (personal guesstimate, feel free to correct me) of any BS fleet...Then something _is_ wrong.
I still take out my 'Thron every now and then for its polishing. Then it halfway goes back into the hanger, before I feel bad, undock in it, and in the first encounter I have, realise I should have undocked in the Raven or Scorpion instead.
And that's with above-par Gallente BS+related skills, mind.
I would tend to agree that the Megathron is somewhat balanced. Somewhat. Contradicting myself, the cap, CPU and PG are...inadequate.
Megathron with 6 neutron blasters = more or less impossible to fit even 1 repairer.
Apoc with 6 mega pulses = no problem.
Raven with 6 siege launchers = cram RCUII's or PDuII's in the low slots = not a prob.
As for the Raven, it doesn't even need the lowslots, as the PDU do the nice allround cap/shield thing anyway.
So if the Megathron is balanced in that it in no way can fit all highs with top of the line guns unless ou sacrifice lowslots...Why is it then not so for the 2 other main PVP ships (Raven and Apoc)? (And no, that's not counting the Tempest, still on hold to see how well the proposed changes will work for it).
I dunno. Let's wait and see what CCP will come up with...there has to be a dev somewhere that's Gallente by heart.
Alternatively: Celebrity deathmatch.
Dev team in 'Phoon/Tempest/Domi/'Throns versus a player team with geddons, ravens, apoc and scorps.
Wonder if that'd work to liiuminate the situation.
-Clipped Wings of LFC
"I believe in the theoretical benevolence, and practical malignity of man."
~William Hazlitt
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.01.14 05:28:00 -
[163]
Edited by: Noriath on 14/01/2005 05:29:19
Originally by: RollinDutchMasters
6x Dual 250mm
1x XL Clarity
2x Hardener
1x Warp Disruptor
1x Heavy Electrochemical w/800s
4x Mag Stab II
3x Mag Stab II/Backup Array II/Tracking Enhancer IIs
Why even bother with a setup like that? Essentially what you get is a ship that completly depends on Cap boosting for tanking and weapons, doesn't have very high resists, goes ratrher slow for a short range ship, and still doesn't do more damage then ships that have been set up with raw damage output in mind on the basis of a pure gunship...
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RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.01.14 05:42:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Noriath
Why even bother with a setup like that? Essentially what you get is a ship that completly depends on Cap boosting for tanking and weapons, doesn't have very high resists, goes ratrher slow for a short range ship, and still doesn't do more damage then ships that have been set up with raw damage output in mind on the basis of a pure gunship...
The advantage to killing the other guy(s) before you run out of charges is that theyre dead and youre not. Its no different from a megathron in that it is completely dependant on cap charges. It is different from the megathron in that it can hit hard out to 25-30k, and doesnt have to worry about a MWD penalty.
You dont have to use a setup like that. That doesnt mean that you should change the bonus on the dominix to make setups like it (which are arguably the best that the dominix has) useless.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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jamesw
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Posted - 2005.01.14 05:48:00 -
[165]
Edited by: jamesw on 14/01/2005 05:49:51
Originally by: Noriath
Why even bother with a setup like that? Essentially what you get is a ship that completly depends on Cap boosting for tanking and weapons, doesn't have very high resists, goes ratrher slow for a short range ship, and still doesn't do more damage then ships that have been set up with raw damage output in mind on the basis of a pure gunship...
Nobody expects it... thats why.
As the battleship with arguably the biggest reputation for being crap, it will quite reliably be the last to get targetted in a small sized engagement. A Domi running Dual 250mm rails is well equipped for small scale gate to gate based PVP, which usually has a max range of 40km.
As to the damage, I haven't tried the listed setup, but based on previous claims in this thread: you get ~400dps for guns + ~200dps for drones. 600 damage per second is nothing to sneeze at.
edit: didnt make sense at one point.. probably still doesnt
--
jamesw
Rubra Libertas Militia
Originally by: RollinDutchMasters
I fly a dominix, its like a portable blob in a can
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RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.01.14 05:54:00 -
[166]
Originally by: jamesw
As the battleship with arguably the biggest reputation for being crap, it will quite reliably be the last to get targetted in a small sized engagement.
If you often fly this setup, you will find yourself targeted early and often.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.01.14 06:23:00 -
[167]
Hm, ok, you convinced me. For small engagements that's a good setup, but in a large fleet I don't see any reason to equip a Dominix of all things for maximum damage.
I still think the Dominix should have an extra medslot though. That would really make it a much better ship...
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.01.14 08:06:00 -
[168]
ôI still think the Dominix should have an extra medslot though. That would really make it a much better ship... ô
That might make a passive shield tanked Dominix invincible 1v1 against any other Battleship if you had T2 defence modules and passive tanked.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.01.14 08:09:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Pottsey
“I still think the Dominix should have an extra medslot though. That would really make it a much better ship... “
That might make a passive shield tanked Dominix invincible 1v1 against any other Battleship if you had T2 defence modules and passive tanked.
I havent done the math lately, and cant be bothered to do it again right now with an extra midslot on the domi. I strongly doubt that even with another midslot you can break 120 hp/s with 2-3 hardeners. And then you have no cap to attack with.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.01.14 08:40:00 -
[170]
ôI havent done the math lately, and cant be bothered to do it again right now with an extra midslot on the domi. I strongly doubt that even with another midslot you can break 120 hp/s with 2-3 hardeners. And then you have no cap to attack with.ö
Cap would be enough to shoot for 20 to 30 minuets with 6 railguns none stop perhaps longer more then enough. As long as you have the right skills.
I just did the maths quickly and it would be well over 150hitpoints a second with T2 modules, 2 shield hardeners and that extra mid slot. You would also have the powergrid for the best railguns without a problem. If you use the correct values you can tank well over 300 hitpoints a second after taking into account resistanceÆs.
More with the up coming hitpoint changeÆs. So donÆt add that mid slot.
EDIT: I used the wrong numbers for the T2 shield relays as I used 25% per module when it should be more. So its way more then 150 points a second.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2005.01.14 08:54:00 -
[171]
Heh, my view of the Dominix, since its being mentioned:
Good for everything but pvp. Reason is that it shares the same versatility problem as the megathron, only does much less damage. You're already risking big charging right into people, relying on 15 heavy drones (even with their decent DPS and months of training) to back up a set of electron cannons (or medium neutrons) franky, sucks. Only reason to fly a dom into bs warfare situations is if you can't afford a mega :P
Makes a good anti-anything-smaller-than-bs platform, though. Its like battleship v0.5
_____________________________________
Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning.
"Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf |
Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2005.01.14 08:57:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Noriath
You fail to take into account that gun damage can be boosted by skills, ship bonueses, modules, ammunition used. The damage output is much higher because you have not factored in all of that. Also railguns simply have low DPS.
[list of drone disadvantages removed]
Overall the disadvantages of Drones are just too great to make them overly efficient. Also their DPS simply does not compare to that of the best weapons in the game.
I mean seriously, if drones were that amazing why isn't the Dominix the greatest ship in the game? Ahh, that's right, drones suck.
I have to agree here. In addition, people are talking about "Dominix with 15 drones"... wake up and smell the coffee. That requires Drone Interfacing V, a rank 5 skill, in addition to Battleships V, rank... I forget, 8? Not a valid comparison point.
Dominix with 13 drones is the normal number. Which isn't all that hot, frankly, given the current disadvantages that drones have.
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RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.01.14 09:01:00 -
[173]
Edited by: RollinDutchMasters on 14/01/2005 09:14:09
My math, with 7 Shield Relay IIs and 3 Large Extender IIs gives a shield cap of 9625 and a recharge time of 375s (max skills). It has 5000 cap and no recharge time of any consequence.
Assuming that you use the best rails you can then fit, which would be 3x 350mm and 3x Dual 250mm, with lead ammo (and maxed skills), and 3 active hardeners, you could run all of your modules concurrently for ~400 seconds.
EDIT - I just reran the shield recharge time ignoring the stacking penalty, and got your figure of 150 hp/s. However, since the stacking penalty does apply, afaik, youre looking at signifigantly less then that. Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Heh, my view of the Dominix, since its being mentioned:
Good for everything but pvp. Reason is that it shares the same versatility problem as the megathron, only does much less damage. You're already risking big charging right into people, relying on 15 heavy drones (even with their decent DPS and months of training) to back up a set of electron cannons (or medium neutrons) franky, sucks. Only reason to fly a dom into bs warfare situations is if you can't afford a mega :P
Makes a good anti-anything-smaller-than-bs platform, though. Its like battleship v0.5
I couldnt disagree more. In my experience, a dominix is excellent in 1v1 combat and in small-group short-range battles. The main weakness is a lack of grid that basically forbids it from using reasonable-ranged rails, making it all but useless in large-scale fleet PvP.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2005.01.14 09:03:00 -
[174]
Originally by: j0sephine
"Uhm, yea, for an armor tank without launcher hardpoints 9000 powergrid instead of between 15000 and 20000 is a quite noticable difference as well."
True, that's why i think it'd benefit from that suggested tweak to powergrid requirement of hybrid turrets... it'd give the Gallente ships some room for more flexibility with setups? ^^;
Quite. The combo of smallest-in-game grid of the Dominix and the large PG requirements of hybrids really restrict options. Giving the Dom, say, 2000 more grid would fix it in my mind, giving it a lot more versatility without giving it the ability to fit big guns. The same effect could be gotten by reducing the hybrid grid reqs, as Jo says.
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Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2005.01.14 09:04:00 -
[175]
Originally by: j0sephine
Well but considering how a set of 15 heavy drones well outdamages any guns you could put on it, that's pretty much what it already is?
Again, forget the 15 drones, that's a theoretical max that takes immense skills to get to. The normal number on Dom is 13, with Drone If and BS at 4.
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Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2005.01.14 09:07:00 -
[176]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 14/01/2005 09:10:40
Removed: I realized that I had posted criticism of RDM's setup without reading the rest of the thread. 
I still think the Dom needs 1000-2000 more grid. Would enable more setup variety without breaking anything.
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Jakal
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Posted - 2005.01.14 09:25:00 -
[177]
Edited by: Jakal on 14/01/2005 09:50:43
Edited by: Jakal on 14/01/2005 09:30:03
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 14/01/2005 09:10:40
Removed: I realized that I had posted criticism of RDM's setup without reading the rest of the thread.
I still think the Dom needs 1000-2000 more grid. Would enable more setup variety without breaking anything.
hey you seem to forget that a proper gankageddon has no hardeners and no reps/boosters.
he said RDMs setup was nothing but a shorter range gankageddon type setup.
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
The combo of smallest-in-game grid of the Dominix and the large PG requirements of hybrids really restrict options. Giving the Dom, say, 2000 more grid would fix it in my mind, giving it a lot more versatility without giving it the ability to fit big guns. The same effect could be gotten by reducing the hybrid grid reqs, as Jo says.
you also forget that only short range hybrids use a little too much PG. 425-2750, 1400-3250, tachs-3750. a tempest needs 3000 more grid to fit 6 of its heavy longe range guns then a mega and they have the same grid.
(yes i know hybrids use alot of cpu but im not mentioning the tempests poor targeting range and 1 less low slot.)
but i do agree that the domi could use another 1000 grid.
edit-added the italic explanation of my first comment.
edit-added quote for my second comment.
-Adapt and Overcome.
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Loka
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Posted - 2005.01.14 09:27:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Loka on 14/01/2005 09:27:31
Originally by: Jakal
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 14/01/2005 09:10:40
Removed: I realized that I had posted criticism of RDM's setup without reading the rest of the thread.
I still think the Dom needs 1000-2000 more grid. Would enable more setup variety without breaking anything.
hey you seem to forget that a proper gankageddon has no hardeners and no reps/boosters.
you also forget that only short range hybrids use a little too much PG. 425-2750, 1400-3250, tachs-3750. a tempest needs 3000 more grid to fit 6 of its heavy longe range guns then a mega and they have the same grid.
(yes i know hybrids use alot of cpu but im not mentioning the tempests poor targeting range and 1 less low slot.)
but i do agree that the domi could use another 1000 grid.
fit 1200mm if you armor tank or 1400mm if you shield tank. Be thankfull that you can do both.
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Dead or Alive
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Jakal
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Posted - 2005.01.14 09:34:00 -
[179]
Know what "I" use before you tell me what "I" should be grateful for.
-Adapt and Overcome.
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Loka
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Posted - 2005.01.14 09:40:00 -
[180]
Well the discussion is about Tempest and Projectiles. About the fitting requirements and not about which weapons is best in combat.
Amarrians and Lasers
Gallente and Hybrids
Minmatar and Projectiles
1200mm can be fitted together with Armor tank and 1400mm can be fitted together with Shieldtank, thats all i said.
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Dead or Alive
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