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Jakal
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Posted - 2005.01.14 09:45:00 -
[181]
 Originally by: Loka
Well the discussion is about Tempest and Projectiles. About the fitting requirements and not about which weapons is best in combat.
Amarrians and Lasers
Gallente and Hybrids
Minmatar and Projectiles
1200mm can be fitted together with Armor tank and 1400mm can be fitted together with Shieldtank, thats all i said.
acutaly the post was about hybrids using too much grid and i just pointed out it is only blasters, not rails, that use too much grid. dont be so fast to try to derail this thread more then it is next time.
-Adapt and Overcome.
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Phyre
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Posted - 2005.01.14 09:47:00 -
[182]
I consider myself a Megathron pilot. It's what I use now, because honestly, it's my only bs left :P
However, my first BS was an Apocalypse. I loved it, but I've always had a special love for hybrids, and I "grew up" in Eve hearing about how fantastic Megathrons were, so I wanted one for pvp, then I could keep my Apoc for rat hunting and agent missions and mining. Unfortunately, it was a stupidly overpowerful level3 agent mission that ended my Apoc. So now I use the Megathron, which was built shortly after my Apoc bit the dust.
When I first got it, I tried to fit all seven of the short range guns - blasters. I found myself struggling to fit six and still maintain a meager defensive setup. I also had to fit a mwd in order to get to the close ranges required to use the blasters. I remembered then, my apoc never had this problem. I had such free range to fit whatever I chose, and unless I wanted to fit a plethora of Tachyons, I could do whatever I wanted. 8 Megapulse lasers and full armor tank setup? np. 4 Tachyons, 4 Megapulse lasers and full armor tank setup? np. DUAL Lg. Armor reps? I had the cap to tank two Ravens.
Then I read this thread, and find out that it wasn't just my mediocre skills, it was a real problem. The megathron had big problems with it's cap, namely because the range of it's blasters forced it to fit expensive modules to compensate for it. Right off the bat I was down 25% of my max cap just for the mwd... the other ship that is known for using blasters gets a fantastic bonus for MWD. The Thorax. Ironically, it's Gallente as well. I also had to fit a webber to hold someone within that range, because it's so easy for someone to just move away. Add in a warp scrambler, and I'm down to one med slot, which I eagerly fit a cap charger. I would have preferred to fit a large cap injector, but I didn't have the pg or cpu to do it. So.. in order to boost the survivability of my ship, I had to take off my Nuetrons and stick Ions instead. Unfortunately, Ion blasters use up more cpu than Nuetrons (although less pg)... god, so many frustrations. I'm still trying to build another Apoc btw.
However, I love the Megathron. It is a beautiful ship, and if I can keep something close to me, I can rip it to shreds, but the only times I can actually do that are when I'm rat hunting and I'm sitting on top of a spawn, where I can web it right then and there. If I had to close 20km to a target, I'd be out of cap by the time I got there.
"Hey, glad you could make it."
"Thanks.. but I'm outta cap. Mind if I wait a few min, then we can start fighting?"
"Not a chance, sorry. Go buy a Flavor of the Month ship, ie an armageddon."
Give Megathrons a bonus to MWD, either an identical bonus to the Thorax, or less cap use per pulse. Leave the damage bonus of course.
Increase the Megathrons' overall cap, even by a little.
Increase the opt range of Blasters to fit the short range guns of other races. The only way to balance anything is to make it the same for everybody. No gun should be as versatile as the Megapulse laser, and there should never be such a huge difference between the races weapon types. All short range guns should be short range, get it? But even 5km is still TOO short.
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Loka
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Posted - 2005.01.14 09:49:00 -
[183]
well i can fit 3x425mm, 4x350mm together with one large and one med II armor rep.
So Rails arent that easy to fit either. But you are right, much better than Blasters.
But Cap is also a problem on Rails not only on Blaster. 25 cap/s.
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Dead or Alive
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BOldMan
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Posted - 2005.01.14 09:51:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
yes somehow i quite agree with others who said that mega is balanced and is a brainstorm :)
That sound like someone must be or incredible clever or incredible naive to fly a mega.
Anyway I have caldari backup race training.
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Jakal
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Posted - 2005.01.14 09:53:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Jakal
the changes to make the gallente BSs better imo are these.
about +8% capictor.
about a 35% cap use reduction to hybrids.
why do i have to repeat my self loka?
-Adapt and Overcome.
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Loka
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Posted - 2005.01.14 09:53:00 -
[186]
Originally by: BOldMan
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
yes somehow i quite agree with others who said that mega is balanced and is a brainstorm :)
That sound like someone must be or incredible clever or incredible naive to fly a mega.
You speaking about me :D
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Dead or Alive
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ElCoCo
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Posted - 2005.01.14 10:01:00 -
[187]
Well... the fact that some ppl like me who fly all BS¦s hardly take the megaT our for pvp says a lot realy.
It¦s only useful in very small engagements with blasters and in fleet battles, nomatter how many damage mods/tracking comps you put on, it doesn^t come close to the arma¦s effectiveness with less isk/skills involved... I could even go as far as to say even the tempest does better in fleet fights, mainly due to it¦s ability to shield tank along with packing lots of damage mods.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.01.14 10:15:00 -
[188]
ôMy math, with 7 Shield Relay IIs and 3 Large Extender IIs gives a shield cap of 9625 and a recharge time of 375s (max skills).ö
Something wrong there as I use T1 shield relays and I have more shield cap and more shield recharge then that I only use 7 shield relays T1, no mid slot shield recharge boosting modules. I also have 2 hardeners. Sure I get around 314 to 350 with T1 modules unless I am remembering wrong. Will check after work. But T2 has to be better them T1. With the extra mid slot I could use 2 hardeners and break 9625 shield cap no problem. I do remember for sure with 7 relays and one 15% mid slot recharge module I got 262 shield recharge.
With out hardeners I got 11602 shield cap with 262 shield recharge without the best implants thatÆs 7 relays, 1 mid slot shield recharge module. So the extra mid slot would be 1 hardener take out the 2nd mid shield recharge module for another hardener. Now add on the bonuses from T2 shield relays and This would give you 37.5% EM and your 2nd lowest resistance is thermal at 50%.
ôAssuming that you use the best rails you can then fit, which would be 3x 350mm and 3x Dual 250mm, with lead ammo (and maxed skills), and 3 active hardeners,ö
Why not 425mm as the setup gives you +70% powergrid? ItÆs a passive setup try working fire time with passive hardeners and controlled burst skill at level 5.
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Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Jakal
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Posted - 2005.01.14 10:19:00 -
[189]
Originally by: ElCoCo
Well... the fact that some ppl like me who fly all BS¦s hardly take the megaT our for pvp says a lot realy.
It¦s only useful in very small engagements with blasters and in fleet battles, nomatter how many damage mods/tracking comps you put on, it doesn^t come close to the arma¦s effectiveness with less isk/skills involved... I could even go as far as to say even the tempest does better in fleet fights, mainly due to it¦s ability to shield tank along with packing lots of damage mods.
err, the tempest needs 1/2 sensor boosters and 2/3 tracking comps to be an effective long range ship in a fleet battle or tracking enchancers and ladar backups arrays.
oh wait, your PA and BoB doesn't try to depend on EW scorps to win fleet battles.
-Adapt and Overcome.
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RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.01.14 10:27:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Pottsey
“My math, with 7 Shield Relay IIs and 3 Large Extender IIs gives a shield cap of 9625 and a recharge time of 375s (max skills).”
Something wrong there as I use T1 shield relays and I have more shield cap and more shield recharge then that I only use 7 shield relays T1, no mid slot shield recharge boosting modules. I also have 2 hardeners. Sure I get around 314 to 350 with T1 modules unless I am remembering wrong. Will check after work. But T2 has to be better them T1. With the extra mid slot I could use 2 hardeners and break 9625 shield cap no problem. I do remember for sure with 7 relays and one 15% mid slot recharge module I got 262 shield recharge.
With out hardeners I got 11602 shield cap with 262 shield recharge without the best implants that’s 7 relays, 1 mid slot shield recharge module. So the extra mid slot would be 1 hardener take out the 2nd mid shield recharge module for another hardener. Now add on the bonuses from T2 shield relays and This would give you 37.5% EM and your 2nd lowest resistance is thermal at 50%.
((.725)^7)^((1/7)^.25)=.2506
2000s*.75*.2506=375
If these numbers are off, I suspect that the stacking penalty may be bugged with these modules.
As for the 10% grid with the techII shield relays, that looks a lot like a placeholder or a typo (like many other modules), I would be shocked to see that hit TQ.
Without active hardeners, 150 hp/s is roughly that of an apoc tank now, except less since its only maxed in a small 25-45% window.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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Axel
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Posted - 2005.01.14 10:33:00 -
[191]
I still don't understand people that want a mwd bonus for a megathron, it will force all megathrons to fit a mwd with blasters. Leaving the rail out of the loop. An increase of cap would be a better idea, so both the blaster and rail gunners gain something, because both have cap problems.
Also having a MWD bonus instead of a tracking bonus, ghe, u need the tracking u realy do. With close range it's a must, and with the railguns u need the tracking bonus, because the default tracking of the gun ain't that great either.
Movies
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Darken Two
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Posted - 2005.01.14 10:49:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Jakal
Originally by: ElCoCo
Well... the fact that some ppl like me who fly all BS¦s hardly take the megaT our for pvp says a lot realy.
It¦s only useful in very small engagements with blasters and in fleet battles, nomatter how many damage mods/tracking comps you put on, it doesn^t come close to the arma¦s effectiveness with less isk/skills involved... I could even go as far as to say even the tempest does better in fleet fights, mainly due to it¦s ability to shield tank along with packing lots of damage mods.
err, the tempest needs 1/2 sensor boosters and 2/3 tracking comps to be an effective long range ship in a fleet battle or tracking enchancers and ladar backups arrays.
oh wait, your PA and BoB doesn't try to depend on EW scorps to win fleet battles.
Comeon dude stick to the topic lets not turn thsi into a PA BoB thing. I'm PA as well btw and you dont see me dissin you of the other BoB guys in ere.
Why dont you just DIE DIE DIE !!!!
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Jakal
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Posted - 2005.01.14 10:55:00 -
[193]
sorry it was a cheap shot at PA, but my point is valid since he mentioned fleet battles and 3 specific ecms is enought to remove a tempest without backups from a fleet battle.
-Adapt and Overcome.
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Nadec Ascand
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Posted - 2005.01.14 10:56:00 -
[194]
3 specifik ecm is enought to remove any bs even scorp from battle if he have no backup...
6x3 18....
Yeah im caldari... and yeah im flying a megatron...
Why coz maybe now only caldary are tough enough to fly those and evryone use caldari ship...
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0seeker0
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Posted - 2005.01.14 11:07:00 -
[195]
Well, you could safely remove the dom's damage bonus (no?) as it is often used with a hodge podge of medium and large guns.
So... 10% damage to drones instead would be nice. It would really make it a spiffy ship in one area, and would be an ace ship for anti cruiser and frig work.
san.
Character "Widescreen" is a scammer; beware.
Check my bio for a list of known scammers.
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ElCoCo
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Posted - 2005.01.14 11:11:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Jakal
err, the tempest needs 1/2 sensor boosters and 2/3 tracking comps to be an effective long range ship in a fleet battle or tracking enchancers and ladar backups arrays.
oh wait, your PA and BoB doesn't try to depend on EW scorps to win fleet battles.
What does who I¦m with has to do with anything?
Everything you said applies for the mega as well... albeit requiring more tracking comps, but the fact that tempest¦s guns use no cap makes it possible to mount a shieldbooster on to absorb some damage. Rails use too much cap to imo
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RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.01.14 11:11:00 -
[197]
Originally by: 0seeker0
Well, you could safely remove the dom's damage bonus (no?) as it is often used with a hodge podge of medium and large guns.
So... 10% damage to drones instead would be nice. It would really make it a spiffy ship in one area, and would be an ace ship for anti cruiser and frig work.
san.
If I wanted a ship for anti-cruiser or anti-frigate work, i'd fly a damn cruiser. When I fly a battleship I want it to have the ability to make very large holes in a very short amount of time, and that is something that the dominix can do with the current bonus. Drones are too fragile, too stupid, and too limited in use to pin an expensive battleship on. If you really must change the bonus, let it apply to all hybrids, not just larges. But dont cripple the damage output of the ship.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.01.14 11:35:00 -
[198]
Well today my Megathron had a "training accident" in Nonni, and I will be buying an Apocalypse with all the insurance money. I would have probably done it any way because I prefer the freedom from logistics that lasers provide and this new ship will be for 0.0 use.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.01.14 12:15:00 -
[199]
Edited by: Noriath on 14/01/2005 13:34:35
Originally by: RollinDutchMasters
The main weakness is a lack of grid that basically forbids it from using reasonable-ranged rails, making it all but useless in large-scale fleet PvP.
That's why it should have an extra medslot, so it can be used as an EW or Support platform in fleet battles.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.01.14 13:26:00 -
[200]
"acutaly the post was about hybrids using too much grid and i just pointed out it is only blasters, not rails, that use too much grid."
Uhmm both 425mm rail and neutron blaster cannon use 2750 grid. Neutron cannons arguably use too much grid to fit a set of them, so wouldn't that make the 425's equally inconvenient? (you'll probably want that MWD on long range setup just as much as on the blaster boat, to control the range and keep the enemy in your optimal)
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Loka
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Posted - 2005.01.14 13:28:00 -
[201]
Originally by: j0sephine
"acutaly the post was about hybrids using too much grid and i just pointed out it is only blasters, not rails, that use too much grid."
Uhmm both 425mm rail and neutron blaster cannon use 2750 grid. Neutron cannons arguably use too much grid to fit a set of them, so wouldn't that make the 425's equally inconvenient? (you'll probably want that MWD on long range setup just as much as on the blaster boat, to control the range and keep the enemy in your optimal)
Well even if it hurts myself to argue against this, because i fly mainly only gallente i must say no.
The fact that the neutrons are that hard to fit is because the need of MWD and Cap Injector. Without them Blasterships arent effective enough.
Rails dont need them. AB work fine with rails, so this problem occures only for Neutrons. But i would still be happy to see 425mm PG reduced to 2500 PG 
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Dead or Alive
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Grievance
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Posted - 2005.01.14 14:42:00 -
[202]
What makes me laugh is when you criticise the Amarr Ship and Weaponry, you get the respone "The damage modifiers on the weapons are so high, because the Amarrian ships do not give any damage bonuses like other ships."
Well, the Gallente ships don't get any Capacitor bonuses (Cap total/recharge and/or reduced weapon capacitor needs), so if the Amarrians are balanced because they have high cap with skills and high damage as standard, shouldn't the Gallente ships be given high damage with skills and high cap as standard? This would comply with what CCP already considers to be 'balanced'
The Megathron and the Apocalypse have the same slot loadout, admittidly they have different uses, but if you fit out both with the best weapons for their class of near enough the same type (425s and Tachyons respectively), which one would win?
The Apoc of course, because it's uber cap will be able to keep the guns and tanking going for a lot longer. Cap is life in PvP, especially one on ones, and i wouldnt even consider taking on an apoc i know is set up for the same range i am, simply because it's a no win situation.
'A man with a passion for Pirate fashion.' |
Noriath
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Posted - 2005.01.14 15:15:00 -
[203]
Well the problem with ubertanks like Apoc is really that if you can't break their tanking you basicly can't hurt them at all. You can't even wear them down over time or anything, they simply will not die unless you do more damage then what they can tank.
That alone completly unbalances the game because it just makes low damage aproaches to a fight irrelevant. There has never even been a point to hitting the enemy and then running, simply because if you didn't kill it you didn't hurt it. That entire concept makes high damage output the single most deciding factor in the game.
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Thanit
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Posted - 2005.01.14 17:16:00 -
[204]
Back to front, cause with upcoming hp changes this can't stand ignored !
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.01.14 18:16:00 -
[205]
Edited by: Pottsey on 14/01/2005 18:47:20
ô2000s*.75*.2506=375
If these numbers are off, I suspect that the stacking penalty may be bugged with these modules.ö
Are you sure there is meant to be a stacking penalty?
I just logged in and no where in the modules does it say stacking penalty and I know some modules donÆt have a stacking penalty. Shield extenders do and they say they do. Also without implants my ship with 7 relays T1 modules has 314 second shield recharge. So there is no way T2 modules are 375 seconds.
So T2 moduleÆs with the shield recharge implant would put me down to around about 164 seconds with an 11375 shield cap excluding shield cap implant and excluding the group skill that boosts shield cap but with the extra mid slot you wanted. For a total of 166.4 hitpoints and 2 hardeners. EM being my weakest resistanceÆs at 37.5% would mean a Raven doing 300 damage per second would only leak 33.7 damage though per second that would take for ever to kill me and during the Raven missile reload which assuming is 1 second I would get back all the damage lost in the past 5 volleys of missiles every second longer the reload takes is another 5 vollys of damage I recover. If the Raven useÆs anything apart from EM you have less to worry about.
EDIT: with the new hitpoints change's, shield implant and group shield skill your going to be able to take well over 300 EM damage.
ThatÆs why I think we should not add an extra mid slot to the Domi. As you could make its defence so high you would never need to worry about 1v1 battles.
Note: To simulate having the extra mid slot I fitted my 2 hardeners wrote down the numbers, fitted 4 shield extender wrote down the shield cap. That would give me the same as if I had an extra mid slot. As for the shield relays I worked out 7 modules would give a 52.5% shield recharge boost over my current setup. 3.5 mid T2 shield recharge give the same amount of boost. So I installed 4 T2 shield recharges to cover my implant which is missing on the test server. I figured 7 T1 relays and 4 shield recharges T2 are the same as 7 T2 shield relays + my missing implant. It might not be 100% accurate but itÆs mostly correct.
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Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Jakal
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Posted - 2005.01.14 20:26:00 -
[206]
Originally by: ElCoCo
Originally by: Jakal
err, the tempest needs 1/2 sensor boosters and 2/3 tracking comps to be an effective long range ship in a fleet battle or tracking enchancers and ladar backups arrays.
oh wait, your PA and BoB doesn't try to depend on EW scorps to win fleet battles.
What does who I¦m with has to do with anything?
Everything you said applies for the mega as well... albeit requiring more tracking comps, but the fact that tempest¦s guns use no cap makes it possible to mount a shieldbooster on to absorb some damage. Rails use too much cap to imo
what it has to do with the thing is that tempests cant just go all damage/tracking mods and expect to be effective in a fleet battle. dont bring fleet things into the discussion if you dont want them brought up. and are you blind? didnt you read any of my other posts then the one that mentioned PA?
I SAY THAT GAL BSs NEED 8% MORE CAPICTOR AND A 35% CAP USE REDUCTION FOR HYBRIDS.
but now that i take a closer look at all the BSs capcitors i see that apocs only have a 4800 base and mega have 4500 base and tempes/ravens have 4250 and gal ships wouldnt need more cap with the 35% hybrid cap redution.
pls dont bring ship bonuses into this already derailed thread.
-Adapt and Overcome.
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Darken Two
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Posted - 2005.01.14 21:05:00 -
[207]
I think perhaps the best solution to this problem would be to increase the base tarcking and dmg of blasters across the board so they can outdmg pulse lasers. I say outdmg becos of the range and cap usage of the blasters should be compensated with dmg at the very least.
The otehr thing that could be done was to take off the trackign bonus that the mega has and give it an mwd bonus but then again that might **** off railathron users.
What I do not see as a solution is making the ship too uber so the others cant compete. We do not need another unkillable ship.
Why dont you just DIE DIE DIE !!!!
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Ka Dargo
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Posted - 2005.01.14 22:56:00 -
[208]
Yep hybrids, use way to much cap & the tracking on them is sub par, especially for blaster, which should pretty much hit anything at close range.
signed
- Ka Dargo.
[ 2005.04.10 14:41:05 ] Your 425mm Railgun II perfectly strikes Dread Pith Massacrer, wrecking for 1271.6 damage.
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Kaeten
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Posted - 2005.01.14 23:18:00 -
[209]
I won't let this go untill its changed either. Megathron is especially going to be worse after the patch this tuesday (Large Projectiles...). CCP you siad yourself that the gallante race are supposed to be close range. Blasters are supposed to be the most damageing weapons. They are, but not as what it should be. Theres another post going on about the mega pulses and that diagram. Showing that blastaers are down. Plus amarr get cap bonuses making them uber tanks. Hers a few things that makes the megathron crap and why...
Agsint a raven. A megathron has to get within range of a raven to do anything. By the time u get there your toast. Also if the raven has 2 nos's your cap is screwed if u yourself dont have 2 nos's to counter. That means you are halfway through your tank before u can hurt the other. then again missles dont need any cap for firing. Meaning that the raven has the full advantage of his cap to tank. Now the only good things a mega has is that it does more damage when close. and the drones.
Agsint an apoc. Apoc has cap, meaning it can tank very good. Now the apoc i dont have any problems about. Its the lasers which i am bvery agry at. Mega puleses in that other post clearly show that they r over powering.
Against a tempest. the tempest has a choice of using 4 launchers. Since no bonues is included its up to the pilots skill. With projectiles after tuesday the tracking will be fixed. Now the mimayter race can pick what damage it wants insead of sticking by the am. But thats apart of the race so im not so upset agsint the mimatyer race.
This is my whining now, i wont stop until the megathron has been givin CAP or a MWD bonuses. I will also countinue about the nerfing of the mega pulses. Sry for my typing mistakes. this is my OPINION.
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Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante |
Masimo
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Posted - 2005.01.15 03:28:00 -
[210]
Signed, Signed, and SIGNED!!!!!!!! |
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