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Tali Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
93
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 13:59:00 -
[271] - Quote
Andski wrote:Tali Ambraelle wrote:It doesn't help. Why would more expensive losses equate to more meaningful to everyone? It just means people would be MORE risk averse you twit. You raise the barrier of entry, they dont want to risk loosing the ship, they end up not playing OR paying, subscriptions go down, and gg Eve. GG free expansions, GG more content, expanding company, more gameplay, more fixed, more ANYTHING. because an erebus hull, which represents ~40,000 max-yield hulk hours of veldspar mining for the trit requirements alone, being so easily replaced, is somehow good for the game?
Would you remember what I said about barrier of entry? I don't care about your NAP alliances. I care about the new people coming in and trying to build up. You build whatever the hell you want, I just don't want to see Jonny Newbie play three weeks, find it impossible to afford a damn cruiser, and then quit. |

svenska flicka
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:00:00 -
[272] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle wrote:Andski wrote:Tali Ambraelle wrote:It doesn't help. Why would more expensive losses equate to more meaningful to everyone? It just means people would be MORE risk averse you twit. You raise the barrier of entry, they dont want to risk loosing the ship, they end up not playing OR paying, subscriptions go down, and gg Eve. GG free expansions, GG more content, expanding company, more gameplay, more fixed, more ANYTHING. because an erebus hull, which represents ~40,000 max-yield hulk hours of veldspar mining for the trit requirements alone, being so easily replaced, is somehow good for the game? Would you remember what I said about barrier of entry? I don't care about your NAP alliances. I care about the new people coming in and trying to build up. You build whatever the hell you want, I just don't want to see Jonny Newbie play three weeks, find it impossible to afford a damn cruiser, and then quit.
New players wont get very far in EVE Online if they plan to stay in highsec and afk mine. |

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5321
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:02:00 -
[273] - Quote
Andski wrote:because an erebus hull, which represents ~40,000 max-yield hulk hours of veldspar mining for the trit requirements alone, being so easily replaced, is somehow good for the game?
to put this figure into perspective, that means ~1750 hulks with mindlinked orca bonuses, fit for maximum yield with +5% yield hardwirings mining veldspar from downtime to downtime just to provide the trit needed to build one ME1 Erebus, a doomsday and jump portal
currently, you can fill the entirety of the mineral requirements off of jita sell orders This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Federation posting cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online posting.
fofofofofo |

Vertisce Soritenshi
Tactical Vendor of Services and Goods Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
1814
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:03:00 -
[274] - Quote
A change to bumping mechanics just for miners? No...absolutely not. But hey...if you want to change this idiotic mechanic across the board so that a frigate splats against my battleship instead of moving me and bouncing around...sure. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! |

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5321
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:05:00 -
[275] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle wrote:Would you remember what I said about barrier of entry? I don't care about your NAP alliances. I care about the new people coming in and trying to build up. You build whatever the hell you want, I just don't want to see Jonny Newbie play three weeks, find it impossible to afford a damn cruiser, and then quit.
mineral prices can be twice what they are at the moment and a cruiser is still well within reach for a newbie
come at me some more with your "but think of the newbies!" nonsense, it doesn't add validity to your argument here This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Federation posting cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online posting.
fofofofofo |

TharOkha
0asis Group
113
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:06:00 -
[276] - Quote
Okay, usualy i defend miners (especialy in buffed-barge-whine case). But in this case... OMG... Do you know that you can orbit asteroid in 5-10km? it is realy hard to bump you if you are ...**MOVING**.... Do you see that bumper is approaching you? Set full speed, dodge, and LOL as he miss. GÇ£If reality can destroy the dream, why shouldn't the dream destroy reality?GÇ¥ |

svenska flicka
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:07:00 -
[277] - Quote
TharOkha wrote:Okay, usualy i defend miners (especialy in buffed-barge-whine case). But in this case... OMG...  Do you know that you can orbit asteroid in 5-10km? it is realy hard to bump you if you are ...**MOVING**.... Do you see that bumper is approaching you? Set full speed, dodge, and LOL as he miss.
That requires the OP to be at his computer  |

Tali Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
93
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:08:00 -
[278] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:But miners keep assuring me that the minerals they mine are free, therefore indicating that their time is worth nothing. Since bumping takes nothing from miners but time, they aren't really losing anything, Q.E.D. ...wut?
TheGunslinger42 wrote: The fact that I understand current mechanics and as a result know that introducing concord or aggression over bumping is a horrific idea that would destroy the game makes me an undesirable, someone who is somehow holding back the game and should be removed?
Please state where I said Concord should be involved in anyway aside from your unfounded conjecture. Pleb.
Quote:My dear Undesirable friend, I have been part of what makes this game thrive since 2006. You are suggesting or supporting ideas that would destroy core mechanics, this in turn makes you the Undesirable. And what's to suggest I'm not someone who's been on much, much longer than you? Your conjecture is laughable at best, petty undesirable scum.
Quote:This entire post is flawed. For a start, you claim bumping has no counter, then go on to list many different tactics and counters. War dec the bumpers, orbit the asteroids tightly, webify your friends, suicide gank if necessary, etc. There are many ways to deal with them, that you refuse to employ any of the numerous mechanics at your disposal and instead ask CCP to remove the bumpers is another thing that makes you the Undesirable. No, it is not flawed. The listed counter attack methods aren't even enough to be considered real counters. More like applying duct tape to a crack in a giant damn right before the taping individual drowns. They've been employed, to some success, but not enough to curb the initial bump that moves the miners away. Your logic makes you even more of a belligerent undesirable needing removal with your failed logic and attempted justification at this vile behavior.
Quote:Additionally, you state that the sandbox ends when it infringes on another players rights. This is incorrect. You have no rights, and not simply because you're an Undesirable. No player has any rights in the sandbox. You do not have the right to play "in peace", you are misinformed. The counter to this is, of course, that I do not have the right to play uninterrupted either, so feel free disrupt my playstyle with whatever mechanics are at your disposal - ganking, wars, webbing and orbiting, moving system, etc.
And this is where argument ends and guns do the talking. We simply have a different view point. Neither is right nor wrong until one is dead and gives up and the other is alive. I won't bother to argue against your petty idea. |

Tali Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
93
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:09:00 -
[279] - Quote
Andski wrote:
mineral prices can be twice what they are at the moment and a cruiser is still well within reach for a newbie
come at me some more with your "but think of the newbies!" nonsense, it doesn't add validity to your argument here
And you think the prices would stay at being doubled only and not just keep rising as extortionists gouge? Because that worked oh so well with plexes... |

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
602
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:10:00 -
[280] - Quote
svenska flicka wrote:TharOkha wrote:Okay, usualy i defend miners (especialy in buffed-barge-whine case). But in this case... OMG...  Do you know that you can orbit asteroid in 5-10km? it is realy hard to bump you if you are ...**MOVING**.... Do you see that bumper is approaching you? Set full speed, dodge, and LOL as he miss. That requires the OP to be at his computer 
But it's not fair that they can't go make a sandwhich  |

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
602
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:12:00 -
[281] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle wrote:Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:But miners keep assuring me that the minerals they mine are free, therefore indicating that their time is worth nothing. Since bumping takes nothing from miners but time, they aren't really losing anything, Q.E.D. ...wut? .
Thought this was easier to understand. Okay, trying again.
You are not arguing on the side of the rational people in this one. The rational people, including rational miners like I have been, are not subject to the bumping because we do not mine in Halaima anymore. |

svenska flicka
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:13:00 -
[282] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:svenska flicka wrote:TharOkha wrote:Okay, usualy i defend miners (especialy in buffed-barge-whine case). But in this case... OMG...  Do you know that you can orbit asteroid in 5-10km? it is realy hard to bump you if you are ...**MOVING**.... Do you see that bumper is approaching you? Set full speed, dodge, and LOL as he miss. That requires the OP to be at his computer  But it's not fair that they can't go make a sandwhich 
I want to make sandwich and eat it watching TV in another room during CTA's but CCP mean to me in mah sansbox  |

Tali Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
93
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:13:00 -
[283] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:Tali Ambraelle wrote:Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:But miners keep assuring me that the minerals they mine are free, therefore indicating that their time is worth nothing. Since bumping takes nothing from miners but time, they aren't really losing anything, Q.E.D. ...wut? . Thought this was easier to understand. Okay, trying again. You are not arguing on the side of the rational people in this one. The rational people, including rational miners like I have been, are not subject to the bumping because we do not mine in Halaima anymore.
Ah. Sorry. The thing is though, while you're right yes, they've moved and expanded their efforts. That is the concern. If it was in one system...they're still assholes, but fine. When it expands and multiple systems are being affected...no. |

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5322
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:13:00 -
[284] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:Thought this was easier to understand. Okay, trying again.
You are not arguing on the side of the rational people in this one. The rational people, including rational miners like I have been, are not subject to the bumping because we do not mine in Halaima anymore.
it's almost as if there aren't enough dudes bumping miners to cover every hisec system where one can mine
a shocking thought, i know This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Federation posting cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online posting.
fofofofofo |

Mike Adoulin
Trans-Aerospace Industries
36
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:15:00 -
[285] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle wrote:Tobiaz wrote:Tali Ambraelle wrote:James 315 wrote:In all seriousness though, there are plenty of ways to defend against bumpers. Go mine in low/null and shoot them.  In all seriousness though, no. They don't want to because they don't want to be interrupted in THEIR game play style. Whether shooting or bumping. Your logic is wrong.  So is your argument. "If I go into 0.0 people try to blow me up! They are interrupting MY play style! CCP, do something about it!" Empire is no different, in being entitled ONLY to what you can enforce. In high-sec the odds are simply more in favor of the carebears, but by no means perfect. THIS IS HOW IT WAS DESIGNED FROM DAY ONE You are also wrong in your assessment of AFK miners 'just minding their own business'. Their actions (or 'in-action' if you will), have a big impact on the market for ice, making it almost impossible for active miners to compete. Ever thought of that? That would be a good argument if they ONLY bumped afks and botters. I've seen the bump everyone, afk or not. All Miners, active or inactive are subject to their little crusade.
Deal with it. Half the time the miner players are glad for something to do besides wait for the next wave of rats to show up. I've seen active miners tell the bumpers which ships out there are AFK or probable bots, too. Hell, now I'm seeing miners bumping other miners for the lolz.
And there are numerous counters to bumping, just ask anybody who escorts freighters at a gate.
This whole thread is ridiculous; if you are seriously asking CCP to ban somebody for bumping other ships then you need to go play Star Trek Online or something; there are thousands of players that gank miners hourly, even with the recent rebalance, how come you aren't asking for them to be banned as well?
How come you aren't complaining about stupid bumping games at station undocks, or ambush bumping to make sure a target can't dock up into a station and avoid a gank?
tldr; OP is mad, bro. |

Mike Adoulin
Trans-Aerospace Industries
37
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:17:00 -
[286] - Quote
15 pages of this crap.
Will one of you Devs lock the damn topic already?
It's impacting my play style and I'm a paying customer.
|

Tali Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
93
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:20:00 -
[287] - Quote
Mike Adoulin wrote:
This whole thread is ridiculous; if you are seriously asking CCP to ban somebody for bumping other ships then you need to go play Star Trek Online or something; there are thousands of players that gank miners hourly, even with the recent rebalance, how come you aren't asking for them to be banned as well?
How come you aren't complaining about stupid bumping games at station undocks, or ambush bumping to make sure a target can't dock up into a station and avoid a gank?
tldr; OP is mad, bro.
Where did the OP say anything about banning? He wants a defense mechanism to use against them, not a ban hammer you half wit. |

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
602
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:21:00 -
[288] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle wrote:Mike Adoulin wrote:
This whole thread is ridiculous; if you are seriously asking CCP to ban somebody for bumping other ships then you need to go play Star Trek Online or something; there are thousands of players that gank miners hourly, even with the recent rebalance, how come you aren't asking for them to be banned as well?
How come you aren't complaining about stupid bumping games at station undocks, or ambush bumping to make sure a target can't dock up into a station and avoid a gank?
tldr; OP is mad, bro.
Where did the OP say anything about banning? He wants a defense mechanism to use against them, not a ban hammer you half wit.
Define a defense mechanism against miner bumping that wouldn't make Jita 4-4 the most hilarious place in New Eden. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10102
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:21:00 -
[289] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle wrote:Ah. Sorry. The thing is though, while you're right yes, they've moved and expanded their efforts. That is the concern. If it was in one system...they're still assholes, but fine. When it expands and multiple systems are being affected...no. When it expands and multiple systems are being affected, there will be fewer on the ground so the chance of the rational miner being affected approaches zero. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
|

Tali Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
93
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:23:00 -
[290] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tali Ambraelle wrote:Ah. Sorry. The thing is though, while you're right yes, they've moved and expanded their efforts. That is the concern. If it was in one system...they're still assholes, but fine. When it expands and multiple systems are being affected...no. When it expands and multiple systems are being affected, there will be fewer on the ground so the chance of the rational miner being affected approaches zero.
If their current numbers remain steady this is true and you are 100% correct. However, the bandwagon is getting bigger based off forum sentiment of some other players. What is your prediction of their numbers should this positive sentiment trend continue?
Do you foresee this as becoming a full fledged thing that's here to stay, or a passing fad? |

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
602
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:26:00 -
[291] - Quote
This is the natural eco-system of New Eden. Interference will have consequences you did not intend. Still curious as to how you think you're going to interfere though. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10103
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:27:00 -
[292] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle wrote:If their current numbers remain steady this is true and you are 100% correct. However, the bandwagon is getting bigger based off forum sentiment of some other players. What is your prediction of their numbers should this positive sentiment trend continue? Rational miners become (relatively) more numerous; finding targets become harder; people get bored. End result: the chance of a rational miner being affected is zero. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
|

Tali Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
93
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:28:00 -
[293] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tali Ambraelle wrote:If their current numbers remain steady this is true and you are 100% correct. However, the bandwagon is getting bigger based off forum sentiment of some other players. What is your prediction of their numbers should this positive sentiment trend continue? Rational miners become more numerous; finding targets become harder; people get bored. End result: the chance of a rational miner being affected is zero.
I'll be honest, if you say it's a passing thing then who am I to argue? Thanks for the input! |

svenska flicka
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:29:00 -
[294] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle wrote:Tippia wrote:Tali Ambraelle wrote:Ah. Sorry. The thing is though, while you're right yes, they've moved and expanded their efforts. That is the concern. If it was in one system...they're still assholes, but fine. When it expands and multiple systems are being affected...no. When it expands and multiple systems are being affected, there will be fewer on the ground so the chance of the rational miner being affected approaches zero. If their current numbers remain steady this is true and you are 100% correct. However, the bandwagon is getting bigger based off forum sentiment of some other players. What is your prediction of their numbers should this positive sentiment trend continue? Do you foresee this as becoming a full fledged thing that's here to stay, or a passing fad?
You have not played eve for long obviously.
Oh and if you didn't know, goons did not invent highsec ganking this year either. |

TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc
435
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:30:00 -
[295] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle wrote:Andski wrote:Tali Ambraelle wrote:It doesn't help. Why would more expensive losses equate to more meaningful to everyone? It just means people would be MORE risk averse you twit. You raise the barrier of entry, they dont want to risk loosing the ship, they end up not playing OR paying, subscriptions go down, and gg Eve. GG free expansions, GG more content, expanding company, more gameplay, more fixed, more ANYTHING. because an erebus hull, which represents ~40,000 max-yield hulk hours of veldspar mining for the trit requirements alone, being so easily replaced, is somehow good for the game? Would you remember what I said about barrier of entry? I don't care about your NAP alliances. I care about the new people coming in and trying to build up. You build whatever the hell you want, I just don't want to see Jonny Newbie play three weeks, find it impossible to afford a damn cruiser, and then quit.
This argument could just as well be used against the proliferation of mining scum - for example, Johnny Newbie starts playing and like many first time players he turns to mining as an initial activity, but what he mines is worth absolutely nothing because the mining filth have caused all the prices to tank.
See how that works? |

Tali Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
93
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:32:00 -
[296] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote: This argument could just as well be used against the proliferation of mining scum - for example, Johnny Newbie starts playing and like many first time players he turns to mining as an initial activity, but what he mines is worth absolutely nothing because the mining filth have caused all the prices to tank.
See how that works?
So try the reserve then. He makes what is presumed to be a lot of isk from mining. Good for him! But his isk is maybe 1/10 the price of a new ship, even after a week of mining.
See how that works? |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10103
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:33:00 -
[297] - Quote
GǪand anyway, if the number of bumpers is increasing, it's only because the bumpees sell its entertainment value so well. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
|

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
602
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:37:00 -
[298] - Quote
Tali Ambrelle, what would you do to stop miner bumping? What game mechanic would you change? |

TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc
435
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:38:00 -
[299] - Quote
Tali Ambraelle wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote: This argument could just as well be used against the proliferation of mining scum - for example, Johnny Newbie starts playing and like many first time players he turns to mining as an initial activity, but what he mines is worth absolutely nothing because the mining filth have caused all the prices to tank.
See how that works?
So try the reserve then. He makes what is presumed to be a lot of isk from mining. Good for him! But his isk is maybe 1/10 the price of a new ship, even after a week of mining. See how that works?
If bots, afks and miners in general are being interdicted though then the prices of minerals will rise, which is good for Johnny Newbie.
If bots, afks and miners in general are given even more protection the prices of minerals drop, which is bad for Johnny Newbie if he wants to join the ranks of filthy miners. |

Tali Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
93
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 14:42:00 -
[300] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:Tali Ambrelle, what would you do to stop miner bumping? What game mechanic would you change? I have no idea, it's not my job. I express my disapproval, I don't claim to know how to run a game. Collision mechanics won't work as that's far too exploitable. Concording or banning them is laughably un-Eve. Aside from the duct tape solutions that might work for now, I couldn't come up with an answer. Could you? Aside from letting them continue to bump?
TheGunslinger42 wrote: If bots, afks and miners in general are being interdicted though then the prices of minerals will rise, which is good for Johnny Newbie.
Except that the ship prices will also continue to rise even higher. Same with modules.
TheGunslinger42 wrote:If bots, afks and miners in general are given even more protection the prices of minerals drop, which is bad for Johnny Newbie if he wants to join the ranks of filthy miners. So now you're trying to spin this as a defense for the "filthy miners?" To ensure they can continue?...right... |
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