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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Xtype Ass Penetration
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 22:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
so how about no
to this
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73413
My small group of people dont like the idea of useless drone boats and dual logi DED sites.
So we think, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lITBGjNEp08
Thank you for understanding! |
Xtype Ass Penetration
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 02:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Onwards to WH space, maybe there shall be enough isk/hour for the decent blowjob i need to swallow with the new npc AI. My only hope remains that maybe goonswarm doesnt like the new changes, that will do the trick to change them back/again. Force me out of my drone ships, ONWARDS TO TENGULANDIA! |
HydroSan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
17
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 02:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Xtype Ass Penetration wrote:Onwards to WH space, maybe there shall be enough isk/hour for the decent blowjob i need to swallow with the new npc AI. My only hope remains that maybe goonswarm doesnt like the new changes, that will do the trick to change them back/again. Force me out of my drone ships, ONWARDS TO TENGULANDIA!
As a member of goonswarm I shall go downstairs to my basement and get my ccp pets on this right away. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
904
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 03:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Xtype Ass Penetration wrote:Onwards to WH space, maybe there shall be enough isk/hour for the decent blowjob i need to swallow with the new npc AI. My only hope remains that maybe goonswarm doesnt like the new changes, that will do the trick to change them back/again. Force me out of my drone ships, ONWARDS TO TENGULANDIA!
i must say i do like that the solution to harder NPC AI is to go to the place with the hardest NPS AI anywhere. Good choice.
PS: only scrubs use tengus in WHs. |
Xtype Ass Penetration
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 11:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
daily bump for my tears |
Nihi Lismus
Chaos From Order Manifest Destiny.
90
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 12:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
Your opening post is bad, and you should feel bad... |
Xtype Ass Penetration
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 12:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
Nihi Lismus wrote:Your opening post is bad, and you should feel bad...
i feed you with my tears, and for that i demand RESPECT! Dont bite the hands with the food, troll. |
Nihi Lismus
Chaos From Order Manifest Destiny.
90
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 13:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
but.. they are so tasty!
nomnomnom haaaands
(sorry, couldn't ressist to that one) |
Xtype Ass Penetration
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 02:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
i make this daily bump in hopes of ever seeing a single logi support enough for a ded site group! |
St Mio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1018
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 05:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
Nice name o7 |
|
Sanadras Riahn
This Nightmare
14
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 12:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Xtype Ass Penetration wrote:
Learn to play your Drone Boat better. For every person I'm hearing whining about their Drones getting chewed on in missions, I'm hearing others saying that they just had to change their strategy a bit, and then they were good to go.
To your second post, surprise! Sleepers have more difficult AI than those that are currently chewing on your Drones. "This is our way of wisdom, warrior. To be true. To be full. To include our hearts in every aspect of what we do. --- Let those that fly cold numbers be the Amarr. We fly better than that."---Alica Wildfire, inscribed on the inside and outer shell of Sanadras' Capsule. |
Xtype Ass Penetration
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 13:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
its not the difficulty why im going to wh space, its beacause you need to do the same things in a WH then in an exploration site in null sec, the onl difference is the payout. Im going to stick with the better paying if the job is all the same. |
Angelofdeath728
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 16:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
I hope the old AI will be restored i dont relly like the way it is now,i can addapt but i dont wont to espacialy now + they should have ask the player community before putting it like this |
Xtype Ass Penetration
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 19:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
daily bump cause i dont like tengu and i dont want to fly a tengu, i need my drone boat legion back in exploration! |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 09:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
So i heard that they intend to change the AI but that only satisfy our needs of drone boats, still not solving my problem with harder anomaly and DED sites such as 6/10 - 10/10. Dont make us train dual logi V!! Make it so logi repairs doesnt count as threat to the NPC, making it possible for one logi pilot to be support. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 11:10:00 -
[16] - Quote
daily bump harr harr |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 09:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
bump for all those logi tears, making ded plexing harder will make its loot and faction BPC cost go up. Do you want to pay billions for a faction BS or some a-type loot? I guess nobody want that. |
Mr Pragmatic
146
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 10:15:00 -
[18] - Quote
I preferred your old name caldari citizen 20121206. Vote for me in the next CSM Elections. I will fight for the interest of all Hi-sec dwellers. No longer will you be cast aside and disparged.-á |
dexington
Push button receive bacon
255
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 11:13:00 -
[19] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Onwards to WH space...
W-space has similar AI, but you can trying doing lvl 2 missions in a T3 with officer fit, should be a suitable difficulty level. GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥ |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 11:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
dexington wrote:Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Onwards to WH space... W-space has similar AI, but you can trying doing lvl 2 missions in a T3 with officer fit, should be a suitable difficulty level.
We already found a class 5 WH, were farming them in capitals and I assure you that with the new AI changes this is much more isk/hour efficient and personally i think its easier than a 10/10 ded plex since a triage archon outweights numerous logistics by its own. So basically were doing the same stuff as we need to do in 0.0 space exploration, the only difference that were making more money in less time. And this is WRONG.
HIGHer RISK + HARDer CONTENT should be = MORE ISK
since the AI update that is NOT TRUE.
read the capital letters together.
|
|
Mund Richard
24
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 20:24:00 -
[21] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote: We already found a class 5 WH, were farming them in capitals and I assure you that with the new AI changes this is much more isk/hour efficient and personally i think its easier than a 10/10 ded plex since a triage archon outweights numerous logistics by its own. So basically were doing the same stuff as we need to do in 0.0 space exploration, the only difference that were making more money in less time. And this is WRONG.
HIGHer RISK + HARDer CONTENT should be = MORE ISK
since the AI update that is NOT TRUE.
Well, I would claim that your Archon costs more so the risk is higher in case you get jumped, but it's by magnitudes more sturdy than a Logi, and with Faction battleships being where they are, plus how you put prolly bling on both, the only difference is the added hassle of using a Capital.
And I'm not sure how that matters, or if it balances anything. Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
dexington
Push button receive bacon
255
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 07:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:HIGHer RISK + HARDer CONTENT should be = MORE ISK
keep singing that song, the baby is almost asleep now. GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥ |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 12:39:00 -
[23] - Quote
to be honest, i read your comments 3 times a row and couldnt decipher what they meant to be. But anyways daily bump for my mission to change npc AI, remote repair shouldnt be generating agro from NPC! |
TKL HUN
Jugis Modo Utopia pwn-O-graphy
13
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:10:00 -
[24] - Quote
Some personal experiences:
I used to run lvl4's sometimes in 0.0 before the patch in a tengu, there were no problems at all.
Today was the first time I tried a Worlds Collide lvl4 after the patch...well...
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?????
I have a good amount of sp, I have experience, etc etc.
I was hardly able to save my 3 bill worth tengu's ass in half hull in the last pocket.
The problem is not just the full pocket agro, but lots of frigates webbing and scramming after the patch, which didn't do this before the patch.
I know lots of new players from our training corp, they are afraid of lvl4's now, and they can't handle them...in HIGH SEC.
???????????????????????
This whole new AI thing is a big piece of crap... What did you expect from this CCP?
-Complexes? (in 0.0) hmm no, I can't do it. -Missions? (in 0.0) hmm, no I can't handle them -Mining? NO WAY
Then what?
You can't make money, and everything is getting more expensive, very nice... |
Gerard Hareka
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 14:36:00 -
[25] - Quote
TKL HUN wrote:Some personal experiences:
I used to run lvl4's sometimes in 0.0 before the patch in a tengu, there were no problems at all.
Today was the first time I tried a Worlds Collide lvl4 after the patch...well...
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?????
I have a good amount of sp, I have experience, etc etc.
I was hardly able to save my 3 bill worth tengu's ass in half hull in the last pocket.
The problem is not just the full pocket agro, but lots of frigates webbing and scramming after the patch, which didn't do this before the patch.
I know lots of new players from our training corp, they are afraid of lvl4's now, and they can't handle them...in HIGH SEC.
???????????????????????
This whole new AI thing is a big piece of crap... What did you expect from this CCP?
-Complexes? (in 0.0) hmm no, I can't do it. -Missions? (in 0.0) hmm, no I can't handle them -Mining? NO WAY
Then what?
You can't make money, and everything is getting more expensive, very nice...
Since this affects bots as well , simple market mechanics will apply.
Less people doing missions rewards will go up - it will be worth of fleeting up.
|
TKL HUN
Jugis Modo Utopia pwn-O-graphy
13
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 15:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
Gerard Hareka wrote:TKL HUN wrote:Some personal experiences:
I used to run lvl4's sometimes in 0.0 before the patch in a tengu, there were no problems at all.
Today was the first time I tried a Worlds Collide lvl4 after the patch...well...
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?????
I have a good amount of sp, I have experience, etc etc.
I was hardly able to save my 3 bill worth tengu's ass in half hull in the last pocket.
The problem is not just the full pocket agro, but lots of frigates webbing and scramming after the patch, which didn't do this before the patch.
I know lots of new players from our training corp, they are afraid of lvl4's now, and they can't handle them...in HIGH SEC.
???????????????????????
This whole new AI thing is a big piece of crap... What did you expect from this CCP?
-Complexes? (in 0.0) hmm no, I can't do it. -Missions? (in 0.0) hmm, no I can't handle them -Mining? NO WAY
Then what?
You can't make money, and everything is getting more expensive, very nice... Since this affects bots as well , simple market mechanics will apply. Less people doing missions rewards will go up - it will be worth of fleeting up.
Really? We did some complexes after the patch (10/10, 8/10) with 3 dps ships, and 2 logies (5 chars, 4 people total).
Nothing dropped...
Totally worth it!!
If you want to do something against bots, I can tell you where to mess things up, in anoms and belts... |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 22:03:00 -
[27] - Quote
i copy this to my post too, i posted this on someones:
"Well, after a week of brainstorming this new npc ai i came to a point of thinking it is meant to rebalance the source of isk. So after a while you will probably be able to make lvl 3 mission and it will be better iskwise in running solo lvl4, and UberAlfred who have 120mill SP will do lvl 4 solo, or you get friends to make them. This whole concept is very nice beacause technically lvl 1-3 is thrash at the moment.
But: - this still doesnt make agro managable - you need to wait probably months for the isk/hour rebalance to lower lvl missions - its unfair to widen the gap this much" |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 11:31:00 -
[28] - Quote
daily bump so maybe a dev will answer the needs of the many! |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Bitten.
662
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 12:58:00 -
[29] - Quote
I hope they aren't "the many". I'd hate to think that "the many" was a bunch of entitled baddies who think high level PVE should be something they can solo without effort or thought and make insane amounts from.
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 13:07:00 -
[30] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:I hope they aren't "the many". I'd hate to think that "the many" was a bunch of entitled baddies who think high level PVE should be something they can solo without effort or thought and make insane amounts from.
said the wh dweller, to whom doesnt matter what are the AI changes since sleepers didnt change. No sir, the many are all the ppl who posted on this forum and all who didnt post, but share the dislike of the new unfair AI system. As i stated before, i moved to a class 5 wh a week ago, because in the same time with less energy investment and at the same amount of risk i get much more ISK, i say even faster than in 0.0. But youre already familiar with the amounts of isk you can make with capital escalation in a class 5 wh. So please tell me how annoyed youre with my forum posts and how skilledly you can manage the new npc ai...
|
|
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Bitten.
662
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 13:13:00 -
[31] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:I hope they aren't "the many". I'd hate to think that "the many" was a bunch of entitled baddies who think high level PVE should be something they can solo without effort or thought and make insane amounts from.
said the wh dweller, to whom doesnt matter what are the AI changes since sleepers didnt change. No sir, the many are all the ppl who posted on this forum and all who didnt post, but share the dislike of the new unfair AI system. As i stated before, i moved to a class 5 wh a week ago, because in the same time with less energy investment and at the same amount of risk i get much more ISK, i say even faster than in 0.0. But youre already familiar with the amounts of isk you can make with capital escalation in a class 5 wh. So please tell me how annoyed youre with my forum posts and how skilledly you can manage the new npc ai...
I completely disagree with the stuff you're saying about it taking less effort or investment in wormhole space, and the rest of what you're saying seems to rest entirely upon that. So yeah.
Tear some more, alt boy |
TOPSTER
9th Air Cavalry
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 13:21:00 -
[32] - Quote
TKL HUN wrote: You can't make money, and everything is getting more expensive, very nice...
Obamanomics in Eve 4TW! |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 13:22:00 -
[33] - Quote
disagree as much as you want, i wasnt asking your opinion tough. Im independent on the NPC AI question, unlike you. Im only thinking that its unfair, that vet pilots like me with isk to invest and several high sp characters can make even more money now, while other pilots such as our training corp members and newer pilots gets the thrash. So unless you go out and try to make a lvl 4 mission on your own, or try to complete a 0.0 exploration site with a mere 3 pilot fleet, please keep your disagreement to yourself. This isnt something of your concern, wh dweller. |
TOPSTER
9th Air Cavalry
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 13:31:00 -
[34] - Quote
Bottom line is this: Players will complain cause they have to adapt, Personally I dont like the new changes, well because it means I have to adapt. I LIKED the way I did things, it made me a respectable amount of isk to keep my other PVP alliance character in ships cause even though I like PVP I am pretty terrible at it... que sera. Hence the need for an income stream to support the habit but I digress.
The thing you have to realize for those of use that have been playing eve, well since Go-Live day in 2003, we have seen every change come down the pike... Remember when OMG they were going to NERF DUAL MWD Ravens doing 10K KPS? Holy hell you would have thought the world was coming to an end, oddly enough however Eve marches on with many more subscribers now than they had then. So, does all the complaining cause change? Sure, but oddly enough those that ***** never seem to be satisfied with the changes... go figure
So word of advice is this, make your complaint, jump in a few threads and post your displeasure but dont bank on getting things changed back. Rather learn a new strategy to accomplish the same end. It may be that it is not as efficient as you once were but hey give it time, there are a LOT of players in Eve a LOT smarter and craftier than you or I will ever be so wait and see what they figure out, then emulate them if you cant be cutting edge yourself. Bottom line it's internet spaceships, and no it's not all THAT serious. |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Bitten.
663
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 13:37:00 -
[35] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:disagree as much as you want, i wasnt asking your opinion tough. Im independent on the NPC AI question, unlike you. Im only thinking that its unfair, that vet pilots like me with isk to invest and several high sp characters can make even more money now, while other pilots such as our training corp members and newer pilots gets the thrash. So unless you go out and try to make a lvl 4 mission on your own, or try to complete a 0.0 exploration site with a mere 3 pilot fleet, please keep your disagreement to yourself. This isnt something of your concern, wh dweller.
Except it is, as I've played in all areas of EVE, and I have other characters who primarily dwell in highsec and nullsec. So don't tell me what does or does not concern me, you sad little alt. And unfortunately for you, you can't stop me from chiming in with my opinions, so deal.
I have to ask why you think a mere three man fleet should be able to run what is supposed to be some of the hardest PVE content in the game in the first place. "But because we did before" isn't valid.
PS, one of my alts has done level 4s since the change. The only issue I've noticed is that some missions have everything aggro at once, which I believe a dev has already stated was a bug. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 13:57:00 -
[36] - Quote
Topster, this npc ai change doesnt serve anyone, its only changing the game into something that mosto f the ppl dont want and dont need. It isnt between someone and some other, its affecting everybody. Thats why its not the same. |
TOPSTER
9th Air Cavalry
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 14:04:00 -
[37] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Topster, this npc ai change doesnt serve anyone, its only changing the game into something that mosto f the ppl dont want and dont need. It isnt between someone and some other, its affecting everybody. Thats why its not the same.
Well no actually it's not affecting everybody. Not everyone does missions. The NPC AI change does serve people, those who wanted a challenge and were bored with the PvE parts of the game. Is it the IDEAL answer to the problem? Probably not, but it IS a step in the right direction. Those silly wombats at CCP probably think that people who play the game actually like to sit in front of it and actually DO stuff... as opposed to AFK Mission Grinding NPC's that have brain dead AI's... Aren't they silly buggers?
And there are / will be ways to still do missions, just because perhaps right now that isn't glaringly obvioous to us doesnt mean there won't be. Dev's have already said in a thread I read yesterday that the whole room agro is a bug and that a fix is in the works, so aside from that the only real issues I see are the frigates... I suppose you could say that the agro swapping might be an issue if you routinely run lvl 4's with an alt in a logi (I know I have in the past) and the logi will now get targeted too but again I still stand by my previous post. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 14:41:00 -
[38] - Quote
this change affected every npc besides the sleepers and incursions. Missions are only one third of the PVE npc, and im not angry because of the missions, i can see the meaning of the missions changes if you read up in my posts you can see that. Btw you should get more information before you post on something. its clear that you didnt read my previus posts and didnt read the patch notes properly. |
bloodknight2
Talledega Knights
28
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 14:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
TKL HUN wrote:Some personal experiences:
I used to run lvl4's sometimes in 0.0 before the patch in a tengu, there were no problems at all.
Today was the first time I tried a Worlds Collide lvl4 after the patch...well...
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?????
I have a good amount of sp, I have experience, etc etc.
I was hardly able to save my 3 bill worth tengu's ass in half hull in the last pocket.
The problem is not just the full pocket agro, but lots of frigates webbing and scramming after the patch, which didn't do this before the patch.
I know lots of new players from our training corp, they are afraid of lvl4's now, and they can't handle them...in HIGH SEC.
???????????????????????
This whole new AI thing is a big piece of crap... What did you expect from this CCP?
-Complexes? (in 0.0) hmm no, I can't do it. -Missions? (in 0.0) hmm, no I can't handle them -Mining? NO WAY
Then what?
You can't make money, and everything is getting more expensive, very nice...
Stop crying and read the forum
There is a BUG in some mission where you will have the full room aggro. |
TKL HUN
Jugis Modo Utopia pwn-O-graphy
13
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 15:52:00 -
[40] - Quote
bloodknight2 wrote:TKL HUN wrote:Some personal experiences:
I used to run lvl4's sometimes in 0.0 before the patch in a tengu, there were no problems at all.
Today was the first time I tried a Worlds Collide lvl4 after the patch...well...
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?????
I have a good amount of sp, I have experience, etc etc.
I was hardly able to save my 3 bill worth tengu's ass in half hull in the last pocket.
The problem is not just the full pocket agro, but lots of frigates webbing and scramming after the patch, which didn't do this before the patch.
I know lots of new players from our training corp, they are afraid of lvl4's now, and they can't handle them...in HIGH SEC.
???????????????????????
This whole new AI thing is a big piece of crap... What did you expect from this CCP?
-Complexes? (in 0.0) hmm no, I can't do it. -Missions? (in 0.0) hmm, no I can't handle them -Mining? NO WAY
Then what?
You can't make money, and everything is getting more expensive, very nice... Stop crying and read the forum There is a BUG in some mission where you will have the full room aggro.
Sir, I know this is a bug, but bug or not bug, it's there.
And yes, there are lots of bugs unfixed like capital modules not recieving all the bonuses from a legion booster, but nobody cares...
You know what they care about? Putting New Eden Open medals into the game (like they did today...), and removing clouds from complexes... Which are btw weren't removed, and still messing up my FPS rate...
Thx again, focus on clouds instead of bugged game mechanics.
|
|
Sexual Death
EldarRiders Axiomatic Dominion
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 15:59:00 -
[41] - Quote
Holy crap the worlds collide mission is as said be4 me something uber hard. That's my experience: i warp in using my CNR and (thanks gods) i brought a friendly ceptor with me just in case. In last pocket i catch all agro every single little bastard started to shoot my 90% resists CNR.
1)Amazingly(only after patch i realised) that NPC elite frigate dps is about 2x of NPC battleship DPS 2)They eat 250k ehp tank in under 45 seconds. They deal about 6k dps. 3)They scram u and ur cruise missiles kill their elite frigs for like 3-5 mins 4)As soon as u release drones to save urself they insta kill ur drones. 5)Only thing that saved me was my ceptor that came close to me. Entire gang of NPCs switched on uber fast ceptor thnx god it was too fast for them so they didnt kill neither me nor ceptor. 6)NPCs webs slow me by 75% however players webs can do up to 60% and have a cap on multiple webbing. NPCs webs dont have a cap they can slow u to stone if they have 5-6 webs.
So running a lvl 4 would require now 5-6 ships fleet with 2-3 logis. Drone boats are totally useless. |
Sexual Death
EldarRiders Axiomatic Dominion
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 16:03:00 -
[42] - Quote
TKL HUN wrote:Some personal experiences:
I used to run lvl4's sometimes in 0.0 before the patch in a tengu, there were no problems at all.
Today was the first time I tried a Worlds Collide lvl4 after the patch...well...
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?????
The only thing that can save ur ass in worlds collide lvl 4 is a ceptor that can draw frigs aggro. So you quickly mwd style loot the can or shoot the armory (depending on faction of worlds collide) and run as hell. And u better have 300k+ ehp tank to that faction to make ur way to the can and back.
But if ur ceptor gets in their web range - u r fcked. I dont wanna try, just people reported that before. |
Maximilian Krenn
State War Academy Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 16:11:00 -
[43] - Quote
Sexual Death wrote:TKL HUN wrote:Some personal experiences:
I used to run lvl4's sometimes in 0.0 before the patch in a tengu, there were no problems at all.
Today was the first time I tried a Worlds Collide lvl4 after the patch...well...
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?????
The only thing that can save ur ass in worlds collide lvl 4 is a ceptor that can draw frigs aggro. So you quickly mwd style loot the can or shoot the armory (depending on faction of worlds collide) and run as hell. And u better have 300k+ ehp tank to that faction to make ur way to the can and back. But if ur ceptor gets in their web range - u r fcked. I dont wanna try, just people reported that before. Interestigly enough, almost every other mission now agents offer me (not to this but to some other char) is WC lol. I don't know, maybe I'm just of such luck lol..... |
TOPSTER
9th Air Cavalry
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 18:29:00 -
[44] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:this change affected every npc besides the sleepers and incursions. Missions are only one third of the PVE npc, and im not angry because of the missions, i can see the meaning of the missions changes if you read up in my posts you can see that. Btw you should get more information before you post on something. its clear that you didnt read my previus posts and didnt read the patch notes properly.
Didnt read the patch notes properly? LOL like, was I supposed to be sitting upright, with music playing softly in the background? Maybe while driking a cup of tea? Or should I have read them right to left? I did read your posts (Most of them anyways) and I was trying not to be trollish or ugly but they all kinda went like this:
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote: I dont like the new patch! EVERYTHING IS OMGWTFBROKEZ!!! I cant do things like I used to do them so I am pissed and beacuse you dont agree with me 1000% you suck and are mean....
and a dukey-head!
WHINE WHINE WHINE
I was trying to initially be supportive and encouraging you to give it a few days and adapt to whatever the changes are or are not coming with patches, but as I can see since I didnt jump onto your bandwagon immediately and take up arms with a OMGWTFCCPAREA-HOLES!!!!!000!!!!0110110!!! then obviously I dont know WTF I am talking about at all. Continue in your rants and beat your head against the brick wall that is CCP. You will figure out what those of us that have been around a minute or two already know. |
Sammybear
Awakened Brotherhood The Brotherhood Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 18:32:00 -
[45] - Quote
Sexual Death wrote:TKL HUN wrote:Some personal experiences:
I used to run lvl4's sometimes in 0.0 before the patch in a tengu, there were no problems at all.
Today was the first time I tried a Worlds Collide lvl4 after the patch...well...
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?????
The only thing that can save ur ass in worlds collide lvl 4 is a ceptor that can draw frigs aggro. So you quickly mwd style loot the can or shoot the armory (depending on faction of worlds collide) and run as hell. And u better have 300k+ ehp tank to that faction to make ur way to the can and back. But if ur ceptor gets in their web range - u r fcked. I dont wanna try, just people reported that before.
my 660 dps tank mach can handle angel WC, only have ~65k ehp. Not sure which faction you fight against, but angel Wc is not that hard. Well, it is way harder than before, but it is doable with a bit of strategy, and a couple module changes. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 18:48:00 -
[46] - Quote
Topster, i didnt wrote that second quote and if you dont have anything useful then get back to your cave and hug yourself, patting your back that you showed to us how manly you are. IF youre so uber and you have no problems at all, well by all means please capture a video for youtube and show us how hardcore a pilot you are. Guess this wont be happening. |
TKL HUN
Jugis Modo Utopia pwn-O-graphy
13
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 18:49:00 -
[47] - Quote
Sammybear wrote:Sexual Death wrote:TKL HUN wrote:Some personal experiences:
I used to run lvl4's sometimes in 0.0 before the patch in a tengu, there were no problems at all.
Today was the first time I tried a Worlds Collide lvl4 after the patch...well...
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?????
The only thing that can save ur ass in worlds collide lvl 4 is a ceptor that can draw frigs aggro. So you quickly mwd style loot the can or shoot the armory (depending on faction of worlds collide) and run as hell. And u better have 300k+ ehp tank to that faction to make ur way to the can and back. But if ur ceptor gets in their web range - u r fcked. I dont wanna try, just people reported that before. my 660 dps tank mach can handle angel WC, only have ~65k ehp. Not sure which faction you fight against, but angel Wc is not that hard. Well, it is way harder than before, but it is doable with a bit of strategy, and a couple module changes.
With a bit of strategy? In the last room im dropping into the middle of the npcs, in less than 3 secs i have 4 webs and 3 points on me... :/
Btw it's Angel / Amarr navy WC. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 12:06:00 -
[48] - Quote
Daily bump in order to enlighten our clouded vision in the time of need, ccp is silent! Our Creators are deaf to the torment of their ppl, even tough we are the ones whom they make a living of! Will we swallow their choice no matter how it carves into our flesh?! |
Ahn Tee Mahtur
13
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 12:12:00 -
[49] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Daily bump in order to enlighten our clouded vision in the time of need, ccp is silent! Our Creators are deaf to the torment of their ppl, even tough we are the ones whom they make a living of! Will we swallow their choice no matter how it carves into our flesh?! Try it now. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 10:19:00 -
[50] - Quote
bump |
|
TOPSTER
9th Air Cavalry
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 19:55:00 -
[51] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Topster, i didnt wrote that second quote and if you dont have anything useful then get back to your cave and hug yourself, patting your back that you showed to us how manly you are. IF youre so uber and you have no problems at all, well by all means please capture a video for youtube and show us how hardcore a pilot you are. Guess this wont be happening.
I am pretty sure I never claimed to be an uber pilot... although I am pretty sure that I have about twice as many skill points in Drones alone than you have on your whole spread of toons, mains and alts combined but hey it doesnt really matter. I didnt say that the new changes were not hard, I didnt say that I could solo them all now in LVL 5's with a Kestrel... YOu obviously have a hard time understanding english so i'll give you the short and sweet version that maybe you can understand...
...Ready for it?
...Here it comes....
CHANGE IS INEVITABLE, ADAPT AND STOP STAMPING YOUR FEET LIKE A 2 YEAR OLD AND POUTING.
I am done with you now, so go ahead and toss in your last flame, tell me Im a moron, tell me how I am out of touch, tell me how it is impossible that ANYONE in this game might know more than YOU do... go ahead.... And post with your main or continue to be ridiculed by the populace.
Albert Einstein wrote:The measure of intelligence is the ability to change! |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 20:01:00 -
[52] - Quote
damn, you must have been writing and rewriting that post for a long time. Probably thats why it took for you to answer my post 2-3 days. Well, good work needs a lot of time :D . Since you claim youre done with me Im considering your post as a free bump. Thanks for all the days you invested in my topic. |
Jared Falkenberg
Cricketeers
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 21:17:00 -
[53] - Quote
Sexual Death wrote:So running a lvl 4 would require now 5-6 ships fleet with 2-3 logis. Drone boats are totally useless.
I've been out for awhile, so correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the sleeper AI primary logis? Does the new mission AI do the same thing? I had been planning to run L4 missions with a BS and an Osprey like I did before I took a break. Are they gonna just pop my Osprey and then move on to the BS?
|
Rain6637
Team Evil
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 00:25:00 -
[54] - Quote
Sexual Death wrote:Holy crap the worlds collide mission is as said be4 me something uber hard. That's my experience: i warp in using my CNR and (thanks gods) i brought a friendly ceptor with me just in case. In last pocket i catch all agro every single little bastard started to shoot my 90% resists CNR.
1)Amazingly(only after patch i realised) that NPC elite frigate dps is about 2x of NPC battleship DPS 2)They eat 250k ehp tank in under 45 seconds. They deal about 6k dps. 3)They scram u and ur cruise missiles kill their elite frigs for like 3-5 mins 4)As soon as u release drones to save urself they insta kill ur drones. 5)Only thing that saved me was my ceptor that came close to me. Entire gang of NPCs switched on uber fast ceptor thnx god it was too fast for them so they didnt kill neither me nor ceptor. 6)NPCs webs slow me by 75% however players webs can do up to 60% and have a cap on multiple webbing. NPCs webs dont have a cap they can slow u to stone if they have 5-6 webs.
So running a lvl 4 would require now 5-6 ships fleet with 2-3 logis. Drone boats are totally useless.
your raven is supposed to be safely sniping from 200km away, and missions throw you into the middle of a kill zone.
just a thought. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 00:27:00 -
[55] - Quote
Jared Falkenberg wrote:Sexual Death wrote:So running a lvl 4 would require now 5-6 ships fleet with 2-3 logis. Drone boats are totally useless. I've been out for awhile, so correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the sleeper AI primary logis? Does the new mission AI do the same thing? I had been planning to run L4 missions with a BS and an Osprey like I did before I took a break. Are they gonna just pop my Osprey and then move on to the BS?
NPC AI does not primary logi just because it is logi--my basilisk has to take its turn being primary just like my battleships
also: sleeper AI and drones... I ran c3 sites with drone dps just for kicks and they never targeted my drones. |
Jared Falkenberg
Cricketeers
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 01:40:00 -
[56] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Jared Falkenberg wrote:Sexual Death wrote:So running a lvl 4 would require now 5-6 ships fleet with 2-3 logis. Drone boats are totally useless. I've been out for awhile, so correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the sleeper AI primary logis? Does the new mission AI do the same thing? I had been planning to run L4 missions with a BS and an Osprey like I did before I took a break. Are they gonna just pop my Osprey and then move on to the BS? NPC AI does not primary logi just because it is logi--my basilisk has to take its turn being primary just like my battleships also: sleeper AI and drones... I ran c3 sites with drone dps just for kicks and they never targeted my drones.
They may not primary you just because you're in a logi, but the way I remember wormholes you would draw an inordinate amount of fire for using a remote rep.
Anyway even if they're just going round robin my plan is ruined. |
DrunkenNinja
Straya. Scrapyard.
23
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 05:24:00 -
[57] - Quote
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA NICE NAME! XD |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 08:59:00 -
[58] - Quote
Basically i was running lvl 4 missions in zero sec with a full dps talos and and active tanking oneiros, this way the 2 ships had 1200 dps and 1500+ tank, a combo more than enough for any lvl 4 mission and the cost of it only 4-500 mill, half the cost of a semi pimp tengu. So technically with my high sp characters i was able to use cheap ships for high end content, same goes for 0.0 exploration, only difference is that i needed to use a machariel or a tornado with my third account. Now this setup is totally ruined, because a single logi in itself can't tank more than 2-300 dps with its self repair, making the combo's defense near useless. So either we now doing the missions in 0.0 with heavy pimped faction ships and t3, costing 2-3 billion at least, and for exploration sites wich im still soloing i have found 2 ways to "solo" with my 4 accounts. The first solution is to get in there with spider tanking legions(3 of my account have skill for legion) or some other battleship capable of spider tanking and preferably not a drone boat, the second solution is to get 2 logi ship and 1-2 very high dps ships (1200-1800 dps) capable of puttig on at least 150,000 EHP. The logi ships im using are 2 oneiros, but any tech 2 logistic should do the job if you have 2 of them, and for dps ships im using vindicators with a brute force of 1800 dps and capable of tanking at least 90% racial resist for nasty 10/10 ded sites. So my 4 accounts overall SP is likely to be near 300 mill SP, near nothing wasted SP. And on top of my high SP im forced to invest at least 4,5 bill to ships that are able to withstand the 0.0 sites. As of before patch there was very rare for us to find good exploration sites because if one popped around us it was farmed in no time by someone. Now I just go scan the nearby 3-4 systems and i can surely find some nasty sites because there is nobody in my vicinity that have 4 accounts specialized in training like mine, and the payout isnt good enough to split it 4-5 ways (most of the time the payout is 100-150 mill).
Conclusion: im making **** tonns of isk as a vet pilot, others need at least months of alt training and newer pilots with less isk simply cant do nothing besides belt ratting.
Way to fix it: Dont let npc to agro on logi as long as its not shooting, or give us tools to control threat. Simple as that. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 09:02:00 -
[59] - Quote
I include my logi in a cap chain and it can run its large ancillary booster on auto repeat... empty
it warps in and fights with drones right next to my battleships
your logi kung-fu is weak |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 09:04:00 -
[60] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:I include my logi in a cap chain and it can run its large ancillary booster on auto repeat... empty
it warps in and fights with drones right next to my battleships
your logi kung-fu is weak
you put cap transfers on your bs and cap chain with your logi?
|
|
Rain6637
Team Evil
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 09:08:00 -
[61] - Quote
yes.
http://i.imgur.com/IUO61.jpg
all aboard the fail train! |
Kiteo Hatto
Equanimity Order
388
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 09:23:00 -
[62] - Quote
Yep, convinced you have more isk than common sense.
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Rain6637 wrote:I include my logi in a cap chain and it can run its large ancillary booster on auto repeat... empty
it warps in and fights with drones right next to my battleships
your logi kung-fu is weak you put cap transfers on your bs and cap chain with your logi? Also this
P.S. Must be soooooooooooooooo fun to do lvl 4s with yourself times 5 "That's okay it annoys me when people pile on new definitions to the word sandbox every time CCP does something they don't like." - Alara IonStorm GD is where 60% of threads make you dumber and 10% which provide you with entertainment, the remaining 30% is a mix of both. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 09:28:00 -
[63] - Quote
Its a good solution, but i doubt that its enough for a 0.0 ded site, where you need 1000+ tank. Technically its a way of spider tanking but you still needed a nightmare a rattlesnake and a basilisk, these approx. worth 2,1 bill and and again, at least 3 characters with 30mill+ SP. And dont forget the inconvenience of controlling 3 accounts for a simple lvl 4 mission. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 09:29:00 -
[64] - Quote
it's perfect for missions, I burn through them.
missioning is alright. i mostly just sit in captains quarters and stare at their figures
no, but really having so many accounts and screens is great for scouting
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Its a good solution, but i doubt that its enough for a 0.0 ded site, where you need 1000+ tank. Technically its a way of spider tanking but you still needed a nightmare a rattlesnake and a basilisk, these approx. worth 2,1 bill and and again, at least 3 characters with 30mill+ SP. And dont forget the inconvenience of controlling 3 accounts for a simple lvl 4 mission.
they tank like crazy |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 09:43:00 -
[65] - Quote
in the final pocket of the sansha 10/10 there is a structure that bombs for 50,000 damage every 30 seconds, and around 20 battleships (tyrants and dread lords - the nasty ones) 15 cruisers some of them elite cruisers, 20-25 frigates that scrambles and webs you, and some webbing towers around the grid. Give me the exact number of the tanking capablities of your ships, if you can please. |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
61
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 11:36:00 -
[66] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:in the final pocket of the sansha 10/10 there is a structure that bombs for 50,000 damage every 30 seconds, and around 20 battleships (tyrants and dread lords - the nasty ones) 15 cruisers some of them elite cruisers, 20-25 frigates that scrambles and webs you, and some webbing towers around the grid. Give me the exact number of the tanking capablities of your ships, if you can please. Inb4 "...and the exact location/TZ where/when you run" But indeed, kind of bling that is needed to be invested (and the result) is important part. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 16:16:00 -
[67] - Quote
give you?
I showed you my fit, plug it into EFT yourself, with your skills |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 16:22:00 -
[68] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:give you?
I showed you my fit, plug it into EFT yourself, with your skills
ah sry, my bad, thanks! :)
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 11:33:00 -
[69] - Quote
daily bump for a liveable 0.0 space |
Sammybear
Awakened Brotherhood The Brotherhood Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 23:00:00 -
[70] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:
newest 2 pilots are training for logi and I will have my own Vanguard fleet.
so it will be a lot like doing Vanguards by myself.
kinda hard to have more sense than isk when you got so much isk
You remind me of Arty from Anarchy Online, he was one of the only people able to run endgame raids "solo", was a nice concept, but waaaay too much work for the average player.
My hat off to you for the drive/patience :D |
|
Rain6637
Team Evil
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 23:13:00 -
[71] - Quote
:-)
another drone idea: logi for your sentries (it's ridiculous, but it's a solution)(
http://i.imgur.com/1B9iL.jpg |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
237
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 01:20:00 -
[72] - Quote
Why not 2 elite battleship 1400+ DPS'ers and finish most missions in under 4 min?
Are the heavily DPS'ed 4's still making solo running missions impossible? (full room agro) |
Sammybear
Awakened Brotherhood The Brotherhood Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 01:33:00 -
[73] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:Why not 2 elite battleship 1400+ DPS'ers and finish most missions in under 4 min?
Are the heavily DPS'ed 4's still making solo running missions impossible? (full room agro)
full room aggro was fixed in tuesday's patch |
Rain6637
Team Evil
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 01:55:00 -
[74] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:Why not 2 elite battleship 1400+ DPS'ers and finish most missions in under 4 min?
Are the heavily DPS'ed 4's still making solo running missions impossible? (full room agro)
me? iunno, I undock just to pass the time.
having the gang there while I salvage a room makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. (half joking, half true) |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 14:24:00 -
[75] - Quote
another day pass, another bump for the good cause |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 10:28:00 -
[76] - Quote
I wonder if people who disagree with the AI changes should go protest like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfjQ_Lq9FWg
Maybe they would consider that the community has a different idea of upgrading the AI. |
Jijijiiijiiii Ijijjiijiijj
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 16:16:00 -
[77] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:
too bad your tears do not warrant me expending the energy to click your silly links.
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 16:27:00 -
[78] - Quote
You had enough energy to free bump my topic, thank you! |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.18 17:08:00 -
[79] - Quote
I found a solution to complete 6/10 and 8/10, tough did not tested it yet. It needs a marauder worth 3bill and a tech 2 fitted scimitar. And tons of SP, but its called endgame for a reason. Still dont like the ai change tough, and my drone ships still useless |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 13:14:00 -
[80] - Quote
daily bump, how many angry player do a dev need to change a light bulb? |
|
OldWolf69
GRIM MARCH SpaceMonkey's Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 13:29:00 -
[81] - Quote
New Rat AI isn't here for any to us to like. It's here for many of us to NOT do lvl4's AFK. Sry for "the Drone loving Gallentes", wich were more than happy to see missiles nerfd, and now have a taste of nerf too. There's also a game called Farmville or something, someplace else... true, it is in a "far, far galaxy". |
Mund Richard
60
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 13:43:00 -
[82] - Quote
OldWolf69 wrote:New Rat AI isn't here for any to us to like. It's here for many of us to NOT do lvl4's AFK. Sry for "the Drone loving Gallentes", wich were more than happy to see missiles nerfd, and now have a taste of nerf too. There's also a game called Farmville or something, someplace else... true, it is in a "far, far galaxy". You do realise, that apart from heavies, the rest of the missiles were buffed this patch.
And that the RR/spider domi setup, according to CCP FoxFour, is having an easier time than ever before? Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
67
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 15:13:00 -
[83] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:OldWolf69 wrote:New Rat AI isn't here for any to us to like. It's here for many of us to NOT do lvl4's AFK. Sry for "the Drone loving Gallentes", wich were more than happy to see missiles nerfd, and now have a taste of nerf too. There's also a game called Farmville or something, someplace else... true, it is in a "far, far galaxy". You do realise... that apart from heavies, the rest of the missiles were buffed this patch, and accidentally I - as a Gallente - approved of more than one of those for instance (the guided/unguided nonsense was silly). Heck, I'm still waiting for a cruise missile buff. That quite a few complain with non-drone battleships, being unable to kill frigates efficiently, and that the RR/spider domi setup, even according to CCP FoxFour, is having an easier time than ever before?
Do you realise... this missile "buff" did nothing. Since new TD madness I started using Golem again. You know, 1 year ago Golem was the worst marauder and it's still the worst.
Now, CCP wants to introduce new mods for missiles, like Tracking Computer. The coolest thing about it is TDs are going to affect missiles! Just great, the worst weapon system is going to be useless.
Guns still outperform missiles on every aspect. Missile buff did nothing. Period. "Adapt" - means you have to stop using the ship you like and start flying Drake or Tengu like the rest nullbear newbs. |
Rinnve Elennean
Carebear Explorations LTD
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 15:17:00 -
[84] - Quote
OldWolf69 wrote:Sry for "the Drone loving Gallentes", wich were more than happy to see missiles nerfd, and now have a taste of nerf too.
Use MJD, Luke!
[Dominix Navy Issue, MJD lvl4 sniper]
Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Core B-Type Large Armor Repairer
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Large Micro Jump Drive
Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I Drone Link Augmentor I 425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Iron Charge L 425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Iron Charge L
Large Ionic Field Projector I Large Ionic Field Projector I Large Ionic Field Projector I
Bouncer II x5 Garde II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 Warden II x5
Not full AFK, but semi-afk very relaxed and enjoyable lvl4 farming setup. (It is ofc possible for turret ships, but I don't have T2 large turrets so didn't tried that.)
It's kind of a buff, actually. Puff!... and all sh!t is 100km away. Wonderful! |
Silber Zidayn
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 15:20:00 -
[85] - Quote
http://community.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?newpatchlogID=74000
Dec 19 NPC
NPCs will now only target drones in their size category. Elite frigates and cruisers NPCs will go for small drones and above. Frigates and Cruisers NPCs will go for medium drones and above. Battleship NPCs will go for large drones.
Dec 17 NPCs
The GÇÿUnknownGÇÖ faction will no longer show up on the Standings tab of the character sheet. NPCs will now respect their authored threat ranges so the full room will not aggro a player on entering the dungeon. Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship. |
Mund Richard
60
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 15:23:00 -
[86] - Quote
Now if only someone explained to me why a light drone is appropriate target for an elite cruiser.
But yes, things are getting dumbed down, instead of being fine-tuned, because that's easier to do. Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe Against ALL Authorities
622
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 16:15:00 -
[87] - Quote
Silber Zidayn wrote:http://community.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?newpatchlogID=74000
Dec 19 NPC
NPCs will now only target drones in their size category. Elite frigates and cruisers NPCs will go for small drones and above. Frigates and Cruisers NPCs will go for medium drones and above. Battleship NPCs will go for large drones.
Great. Let's make the NPC AI even more hateful on drones
|
Mund Richard
60
|
Posted - 2012.12.19 16:21:00 -
[88] - Quote
Louis deGuerre wrote: Great. Let's make the NPC AI even more hateful on drones
What they did does help.
Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 13:18:00 -
[89] - Quote
Changes has been made to the drone hate, I would appreciate some feedback on it. But Im still daily bumping the topic, because I believe this game is played by its players and not by devs who force changes on their costumers. Im still holding that not aggressive ships, such as LOGISTICS shouldnt be on the aggro palette, since they are not capable of making harm. Forcing people who used logistics as their second accounts into completely changing their setup is rude. If a ship isnt fitted with damage modules it shouldnt get agro, or make it like in the drone case. So that only frigates and cruisers shoot the logistic ships, because the amount of damage is manageable with an active tanked solo logistc, but not a full pocket agro. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
23
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 14:06:00 -
[90] - Quote
logi is the biggest threat, I think. so don't feel sorry for my logi.. it doesn't need pity nor does it feel sorry for NPC's. it's the biggest beast in the fleet
plus it target paints
http://i.imgur.com/BfH48.jpg |
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 14:21:00 -
[91] - Quote
Send that logi in the field solo without any remote assistance, and see for yourself tat it needs pity. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
24
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 15:29:00 -
[92] - Quote
hah why would I do that
/thread |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 11:06:00 -
[93] - Quote
daily bump |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.22 19:38:00 -
[94] - Quote
another bump for even more change! |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 12:25:00 -
[95] - Quote
I wonder if there was any benefit for the pilots with these new changes? Did it change something bad tinto something good? Or it was only a good for nothing change forced on us in the spirit of dictatorships? |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.24 11:58:00 -
[96] - Quote
i wonder how many years do i need to get this going in order to get what i want. Daily bump. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
235
|
Posted - 2012.12.24 13:13:00 -
[97] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Onwards to WH space, maybe there shall be enough isk/hour for the daily oral pleasure with the new npc AI. My only hope remains that maybe goonswarm doesnt like the new changes, that will do the trick to change them back/again. Force me out of my drone ships, ONWARDS TO TENGULANDIA!
Sleepers have old AI old Ai is hard, you wont like it.
btw theres free Tritanium handed out with every Rookie Ship, your ISK problems are over.
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.24 13:17:00 -
[98] - Quote
I dont have isk problems, I want changes because i think they are unfair and fruitless. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
73
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 10:21:00 -
[99] - Quote
lol ive got 42 likes in the past 24 hours, thanks for that. Anyways daily bump for the logistics, remote repping and drone lifes. |
Makre
Heodener
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 16:47:00 -
[100] - Quote
I agree, Drones boats should be able to use drones. I forget who said it but old aggro tables on missions, but you have to command drones to attack each target... afk droning fixed. Drone boats still viable, teaming -up viable |
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
74
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 19:26:00 -
[101] - Quote
Its funny but I double checked it, in less then 20 days in wormhole without much experience of how to make money in it, we made more than 30 billion!! You read that right, its not a miscalculation and it cost us ( 3 players with 5-6 alts total) daily 1-2 hours!!! I mean hairy balls of gods, its a lot more easier than 0.0 ratting and DED plexing and it pays ten times more within less time. Not to mention that in 0.0 you can make tremendous money compared to high sec. The only risk (if you do everything right) that some corp who's hunting in the wormholes, opens a wormhole to yours and shoots you but the chances of that are low and if it shoots us, we will still have more than enough money to reimburst our lost ships.
So my advice: leave ratting and go to wormholes, dont be content with the crap ISK that you can get sweating from the new AI!
This feels like a bad joke from ccp... lol |
OldWolf69
GRIM MARCH SpaceMonkey's Alliance
13
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 02:56:00 -
[102] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:OldWolf69 wrote:New Rat AI isn't here for any to us to like. It's here for many of us to NOT do lvl4's AFK. Sry for "the Drone loving Gallentes", wich were more than happy to see missiles nerfd, and now have a taste of nerf too. There's also a game called Farmville or something, someplace else... true, it is in a "far, far galaxy". You do realise... that apart from heavies, the rest of the missiles were buffed this patch, and accidentally I - as a Gallente - approved of more than one of those for instance (the guided/unguided nonsense was silly). Heck, I'm still waiting for a cruise missile buff. That quite a few complain with non-drone battleships, being unable to kill frigates efficiently, and that the RR/spider domi setup, even according to CCP FoxFour, is having an easier time than ever before? Sir, did you ever try to use HAM's in missions? Not to tell that cruise missiles still suck. And torps... As usual, what's on paper does not match the in game reality. And it sucks. But since there's a paper where stats can be written...."the logs show nothing".
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
74
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 18:49:00 -
[103] - Quote
remote repairs and remote shield boosting shouldnt generate threat, otherwise daily bump |
Mund Richard
117
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 22:13:00 -
[104] - Quote
OldWolf69 wrote: Sir, did you ever try to use HAM's in missions? Not to tell that cruise missiles still suck. And torps... As usual, what's on paper does not match the in game reality. And it sucks. But since there's a paper where stats can be written...."the logs show nothing". Dear sir, I use cruise on a Raven, when I just want to be lazy and do missions while chatting without bothering about transversal or falloff, it's the new semi-afk thing now that drones are shot at. Do note, not saying that Cruise Missiles couldn't use a buff.
Torps... yupp, still Golem/SB plaything, but there it got better somewhat. HAMs... Compared to my friend's blaster Proteus (which now needs a web or TP to keep drones alive), a HAM Tengu I'd think it ain't really worse (also using a TP) as far as either range or damage goes. But you are right, it's a wild guess on my part. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship. Infested Domi! including all the wiggly bits for extra drone repairs, more drone dps than a Rattler due to a role bonus, less tank, and with turrets. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
74
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 09:04:00 -
[105] - Quote
Daily bump for controllable threat, and better group pve experience! |
L0rdF1end
Mainly AFK Happy Cartel
54
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 11:56:00 -
[106] - Quote
It certainly sucks that I spent ages training a setup to run specific sites which now no longer works. Now need to reskill and reship to do the complexes I want.
Retribution pathc actually destroyed everyhting I enjoyed in Eve..
The hunt for Officers/Faction after DT, was a fun mechanic whether intended or not, It actually created traffic and target opportunities in my local area - Not any more.
Ganking in Empire needs rethinking due to the changes. Something I enjoyed but can no longer do they way I was doing it.
Plexing with 2 accounts, DPS/logi now pretty much impossible to run the higher end plexes.
Everything I enjoyed is now gone. :(
|
amurder Hakomairos
Fellowship Of Lost Souls Rebel Alliance of New Eden
8
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 15:54:00 -
[107] - Quote
L0rdF1end wrote:It certainly sucks that I spent ages training a setup to run specific sites which now no longer works. Now need to reskill and reship to do the complexes I want.
Retribution pathc actually destroyed everyhting I enjoyed in Eve..
The hunt for Officers/Faction after DT, was a fun mechanic whether intended or not, It actually created traffic and target opportunities in my local area - Not any more.
Ganking in Empire needs rethinking due to the changes. Something I enjoyed but can no longer do they way I was doing it.
Plexing with 2 accounts, DPS/logi now pretty much impossible to run the higher end plexes.
Everything I enjoyed is now gone. :(
This.
At least I can still run anoms I guess because the rats seem to hate the Machariel enough that I haven't had issued with it or my Navy Domis drones being aggroed. But this is far less fun to me than running plexes was. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
103
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 10:24:00 -
[108] - Quote
daily effort to bring back controllable order into 0.0 exploration |
Opertone
Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
235
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 11:13:00 -
[109] - Quote
Actually, more cry babies - less competition, and more room for real tough guys.
I'd love complexes to be soloable, without dual boxing... i don't see how plexes can be a group activity, finding one is hard, but getting a dummy team mate and not getting ganked is tripple RISK |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1001
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 14:39:00 -
[110] - Quote
Does anyone else find it ironic how much people cry when NPCs *begin* to act a bit more capsuleer-like?!?!?!? Personally, I kinda like it. Sure, I can't friggin' skate by on missions anymore, can't AFK with my drone boats, but hey... This ain't Hello Kitty. Fly Minmatar Air --- "Trust in the Rust!" |
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
105
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 16:19:00 -
[111] - Quote
Opertone wrote:Actually, more cry babies - less competition, and more room for real tough guys.
I'd love complexes to be soloable, without dual boxing... i don't see how plexes can be a group activity, finding one is hard, but getting a dummy team mate and not getting ganked is tripple RISK
i dont have a problem with dual boxing, i have a problem because dual boxing is not enoug for the DED sites in 0.0 lol. You misunderstood me. Or you lie, because you cant complete a 6/10, 8/10, 10/10 without at least dual logis and 2 more dps pilots, or with triple boxing 3 bill cost ships. |
OldWolf69
GRIM MARCH SpaceMonkey's Alliance
14
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 04:02:00 -
[112] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Opertone wrote:Actually, more cry babies - less competition, and more room for real tough guys.
I'd love complexes to be soloable, without dual boxing... i don't see how plexes can be a group activity, finding one is hard, but getting a dummy team mate and not getting ganked is tripple RISK i dont have a problem with dual boxing, i have a problem because dual boxing is not enoug for the DED sites in 0.0 lol. You misunderstood me. Or you lie, because you cant complete a 6/10, 8/10, 10/10 without at least dual logis and 2 more dps pilots, or with triple boxing 3 bill cost ships. This pretty inexact. 2 tengus still can do a Maze. Shure, loot might split in 2. Even being involved in nullseclife, and i still say making isk here is hilarious easy. A bit slower these days, but this won't matter much, for real. Except you driven by a rly sick grade of greed.
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
108
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 10:24:00 -
[113] - Quote
Yes the tengu is an exception in mostly all matters, i beleive it is capable of tanking and dpsing a high end ded plex, but i fear only the tengu and golem have these quality to them. And still you need tremendous isk to fit a tengu such as youre talking about, since i assure you a simple tech 2 tengu is not able to withstand the full pocket agro of the said DED plexes. Otherwise, this is a daily bump too. |
Samuel Wess
Happy Folks Happy Cartel
8
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 06:17:00 -
[114] - Quote
I would not call AI random target switching. Anyway it ruined solo roaming, you should try now to tackle something in a belt and see the NPC ally with the ratter, even if he was the one shooting them, how is that AI ? Even a kid can come up with a better logic if you ask it, i would expect better from people beeing payed to work on such a project.
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
111
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 13:35:00 -
[115] - Quote
daily bump, btw did anyone notice that after patch the plex prices are going down? Is this because ppl can get less isk or is it only the more players that playing demanding more plex? I experienced much more players daily after retribution patch online.
Anyways make logi ships flyable solo in group pve, please its not capable of defending itself from large dps by itself. Its unfair! |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
111
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 10:43:00 -
[116] - Quote
daily bump, yesterday i tackled a skiff in belt within 0.0 space. While my fleet mates catched up to us ive got shot down in my ceptor by the npcs that was shooting the skiff. Bright future for small tacklers i say... |
Coyote Reach
State Protectorate Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 11:35:00 -
[117] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:daily bump, yesterday i tackled a skiff in belt within 0.0 space. While my fleet mates catched up to us ive got shot down in my ceptor by the npcs that was shooting the skiff. Bright future for small tacklers i say...
Lol, serpentis need those minerals too i guess and sided with the miner :p . |
Samuel Wess
Happy Folks Happy Cartel
8
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 13:23:00 -
[118] - Quote
100% of the time i went in a belt and tackled something, all the npcs switched instantly. I did adapt, but i do not enjoy another change that promotes blobs and cripples the small gang. I know pilots that like to solo roam with frigates and bombers, i doubt they will be able to have fun with this.
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
111
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 13:48:00 -
[119] - Quote
Samuel Wess wrote:100% of the time i went in a belt and tackled something, all the npcs switched instantly. I did adapt, but i do not enjoy another change that promotes blobs and cripples the small gang. I know pilots that like to solo roam with frigates and bombers, i doubt they will be able to have fun with this.
agreed, i was one of those pilots |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
111
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 12:22:00 -
[120] - Quote
Is the majority of eve glad with the new NPC AI or not? Do i represent the many or the less? I wonder ... anyways this is a daily bump. |
|
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 13:28:00 -
[121] - Quote
I'm with ya. The new NPC AI is for the loose. It only brings more frustration then challenging. Whatever. |
ggnoreTT
Silver Octopus Infernal Octopus
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 13:36:00 -
[122] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Is the majority of eve glad with the new NPC AI or not? Do i represent the many or the less? I wonder ... anyways this is a daily bump. As someone who does plexing in low sec for a living with 4 drone boats I can't help but feel that CCP gave a finger to the drone users. As I pay cash I don't need to farm so much,only for PvP. I can tell you for sure one thing though, if I was running missions for a living this change would be enough reason to unsub my chars. I feel sorry for HS bears(drone users). So much effort for sh*t reward. |
Skurga
Cooperative Industries Corium Fission
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 13:53:00 -
[123] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Is the majority of eve glad with the new NPC AI or not? Do i represent the many or the less? I wonder ... anyways this is a daily bump.
There are a lot of different complains about the new AI. In some parts I like the new AI and in some other I'm not quite sure yet:
- The complains about the drone attacking "issue" is somewhat overstated in my opinion. Nothing you won't be able to handle with drone durability and some attention. Exaggerated: Missions can be boring and to pay attention on your drones is at least something more you have to care about ;-) Perhaps most of the complains about the AI attacking the drones cut across with the "tracking disruption issue". Thats really annoying, though and needs to be fixed asap ;-)
- The complains about Veterans not be able to take new players with them in lvl4s is something I'm not quite sure with. In my opinion the new AI behaves more naturally now, but I understand the complains about that point.
- In pvp it seems legit, that the attacking player has a chance rats switch their target to him. Perhaps it needs a little tweaking. It doesn't seem to feel naturally when all AI switch to the attacking player immediately (do they really?).
-tl;dr- All in all I like the new AI changes. Perhaps it needs a little tweaking here and there, though. -/tl;dr-
|
Unoob Udumb
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
15
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 15:07:00 -
[124] - Quote
Skurga wrote:- The complains about the drone attacking "issue" is somewhat overstated in my opinion. Nothing you won't be able to handle with drone durability and some attention. Exaggerated: Missions can be boring and to pay attention on your drones is at least something more you have to care about ;-)
You're wrong. Even if you send your light drones 6-7km away, watch carefully their health bars, and recall them as soon as the NPCs are yellow-boxing you (instead of red) or your drones take damage, a few elite frigates are enough to kill one of them before he's able to get back to your bay (because that drone is webbed and is slow at hell).
Skurga wrote:-tl;dr- All in all I like the new AI changes. Perhaps it needs a little tweaking here and there, though. -/tl;dr-
Yes. A simple tweaking would be to make so the NPCs don't web/scramble drones. |
Sgt LoveDragon
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 16:00:00 -
[125] - Quote
Skurga wrote:Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Is the majority of eve glad with the new NPC AI or not? Do i represent the many or the less? I wonder ... anyways this is a daily bump. ........- The complains about the drone attacking "issue" is somewhat overstated in my opinion. Nothing you won't be able to handle with drone durability and some attention.....
Ive posted several times about light and medium drones beginning to die within 10seconds of deployment in level 5's, Is this overstating ? I don't understand. How are drones even useful with this kind of micromanagement? Not to mention Dscanning every 3 seconds.
Ive been shooting elite frigates now with cruise missiles because its unfortunatly faster and cheaper than the other options.
|
Mund Richard
226
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 16:28:00 -
[126] - Quote
Skurga wrote: - The complains about the drone attacking "issue" is somewhat overstated in my opinion. Nothing you won't be able to handle with drone durability and some attention. Exaggerated: Missions can be boring and to pay attention on your drones is at least something more you have to care about ;-) Perhaps most of the complains about the AI attacking the drones cut across with the "tracking disruption issue". Thats really annoying, though and needs to be fixed asap ;-) Drone durability doesn't save a drone when *unnerfed* elite tackling frigs swap over, and everything in the room that is allowed to shoot it.
Coincidentally, elite tackling frigs are allowed to shoot every drone type, and if you are in a BS/Carrier, they will.
After you get 3 webs on you, how much of your original speed do you keep? I remember one of my lights going under 50m/s. Take a guess if it made it back.
Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Skurga
Cooperative Industries Corium Fission
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 16:54:00 -
[127] - Quote
First let me lay stress this is my personal experience and I'm not claiming I'm exclusively right. :-) But there is only a slender chance I get into such situations you descripe (except I'am under heavy TD ;-)). Frigs are my first targets, before they get into heavy transversal: Scrams und Webs first. When something got under my guns my drones still are able to handle it, without beeing destroyed/instapopped.
I refer to lvl 4 Missions, though...but when you read the topics, that seems for me the part of the game, where most complains come from and that isn't simply true for me.
|
Samuel Wess
Happy Folks Happy Cartel
8
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 17:24:00 -
[128] - Quote
Skurga wrote:Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Is the majority of eve glad with the new NPC AI or not? Do i represent the many or the less? I wonder ... anyways this is a daily bump. There are a lot of different complains about the new AI. In some parts I like the new AI and in some other I'm not quite sure yet: - In pvp it seems legit, that the attacking player has a chance rats switch their target to him. Perhaps it needs a little tweaking. It doesn't seem to feel naturally when all AI switch to the attacking player immediately (do they really?). -/tl;dr-
Yes its instant lock and agro when i land in belt, plus Ewar, plus dps from the player. |
|
ISD Flidais Asagiri
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
46
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 17:50:00 -
[129] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:to be honest, i read your comments 3 times a row and couldnt decipher what they meant to be. But anyways daily bump for my mission to change npc AI, remote repair shouldnt be generating agro from NPC!
Hello
Please be careful with this kind of posting as it comes very close to vilotatin rule Rule 12: Spamming, bumping and pyramid quoting are prohibited.
See and you guys thought we only hand out in noob channels and the Character Bazaar. Keep it civil and on topic please.
ISD Flidais Asagiri Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
111
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 08:53:00 -
[130] - Quote
Thank you all for the valuable posts you made, i wouldnt dare to respond because the eye of the isd and probably ccp is upon us. I dont see how responding to a post is violating the spamming rule, but rest assured I will follow the rules. This has nothing to do with the main topic, that there is a community in eve that is struggling against the npc AI changes. We all have different perspective of the change as far as I can see, but we all agree to the same thing: We dont like these changes! Make it better, make it controllable or change it back. Simple as that. |
|
Paskis Robinson
Dropbear Preservation Society Test Alliance Please Ignore
9
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 09:43:00 -
[131] - Quote
It wouldn't be so bad if my own freaking drones didn't have ADHD. They still to this day (despite I don't know how many patch notes saying yay we fixed drone AI) have an entirely different idea of what 'focus fire' means to what I, my dictionary, and everyone else who speaks English thinks 'focus fire' means!? |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 10:27:00 -
[132] - Quote
ISD Flidais Asagiri wrote:...and you guys thought we only hang out in noob channels and the Character Bazaar.
Sure we did! Whatever. |
Paskis Robinson
Dropbear Preservation Society Test Alliance Please Ignore
9
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 22:35:00 -
[133] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:ISD Flidais Asagiri wrote:...and you guys thought we only hang out in noob channels and the Character Bazaar. Sure we did!
It's the only evidence I've seen yet that anyone vaguely affiliated with CCP is even looking at the AI threads. |
Mund Richard
228
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 22:38:00 -
[134] - Quote
Paskis Robinson wrote:Funky Lazers wrote:ISD Flidais Asagiri wrote:...and you guys thought we only hang out in noob channels and the Character Bazaar. Sure we did! It's the only evidence I've seen yet that anyone vaguely affiliated with CCP is even looking at the AI threads. Another thread had another ISD member post a "play nice guys, or else" in it as well I think, so there are TWO evidences! Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
205
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 23:44:00 -
[135] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Paskis Robinson wrote:Funky Lazers wrote:ISD Flidais Asagiri wrote:...and you guys thought we only hang out in noob channels and the Character Bazaar. Sure we did! It's the only evidence I've seen yet that anyone vaguely affiliated with CCP is even looking at the AI threads. Another thread had another ISD member post a "play nice guys, or else" in it as well I think, so there are TWO evidences!
Hey that's great! One more will make it three. When 3rd post happends lasers will be shooting rainbows! Whatever. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
112
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 11:46:00 -
[136] - Quote
Daily bump, to be honest I totally lost all will to live in 0.0. In the past month i only logged in to cta and to test my ideas for the new npc ai. I think this retribution ai change is killing my game experience slowly but surely. |
Mund Richard
228
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 14:36:00 -
[137] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:to be honest I totally lost all will to live in 0.0. In the past month i only logged in to cta and to test my ideas for the new npc ai. I think this retribution ai change is killing my game experience slowly but surely. To be honest, living in 0.0 I didn't have much trouble with the new AI, since my main targets are bountiful battleship sites and frigs rarely get within range, so sentries all the way, and yet I don't really feel like logging in.
Problem could be elsewhere, and this being just another straw. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Batelle
Aliastra
106
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 20:35:00 -
[138] - Quote
is running 0.0 deadspace complexes with a solo ishtar dead now? [url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=65340[/url] |
Mund Richard
228
|
Posted - 2013.01.03 21:28:00 -
[139] - Quote
Batelle wrote:is running 0.0 deadspace complexes with a solo ishtar dead now? Go and try for yourself.
Joke aside, should work, maybe even better than with a battleship since your sig is closer to that of your drones. On the other hand, you might need more spares, and can't just grab agro deploy sentries and then just speedtank away, fitting EWAR may be harder, and your guns do low dps for trying to keep agro (if that helps at all).
Really, try it and share. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
114
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 12:21:00 -
[140] - Quote
Daily bump, ai changes are too extreme. CCP should adapt to the players! |
|
Marillio
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 19:29:00 -
[141] - Quote
An old friend of mine told me today, "first, they killed solo pvp, now they kill solo pve". and I must say after 10 years of gaming, he is right with it.
I am a ninja plexer, so wake up in the morning, choose a nice region, probe a wormhole to it and go plexing all day. i go through 60 systems, find about 80 complex and do about 20 of them. My cargo is upto 4 bil in the end, full of nice lovely stuff, depends on the luck.
I use a second account with a tengu as support for scouting, probing, salvage, hacking and analyzing. Also for remote repair to the tank, which is a different ship, depends on the region i go. It can be only cruisersized ships, because the problem of not having souvereighnty, everyone is a hostile and if i sit in a machariel, they gonna probe me out or camp me in and its hard to travel through 60 systems in nullsec.
Both accounts are very well skilled, Marillio has 140 mil skills and my alt 135, every module, i use is skilled to 5, took me 1 and a half year only for the tengu, but it was really worth it.
I run every plex with this setup "solo", even the one with the 60 battleships in the final escalation of the Provincial HQ, pretty tough, but it was doable, very much fun and the thing is, i didnt know, what i got as a reward. Could be crap or could be nice and its about 50/50 chance of having a nice reward. It was always fun.
Due to the npc change, my alt is getting useless now, because it needs a tank. I havnt found a ship, where you could fit all those modules on it for support, so probe launcher, salvager, tracktor beam, large remote shield transporter, cloak, codebreaker and analyzer.
They changed too much in the last patch, which makes it unimpossible with this setup. The reach of the missiles is 47km now. NPCs going 51. So now i need to fly around on two accounts to reach the range. Or change to navy missiles, which lag on damage. Always i am approaching wrong targets.
The agroswitching is stress. I have to add me on watchlist to see, when aggression changes, together with the new graphics, its a total helldeath for the eyes. Younger generations may not have the problems with it, but i need really to concentrate on all the information on the screen, the little written range to the taget, the open scanner, the show info on every neut which is in system, so its not possible anymore to check quick killboard stats of the neuts and scan for probes, and shoot the target, and check the aggression, and check the short range scan on second account, and repair both ships, and you still have comms with friends, useless stress for a little reward.
And the new graphic of the damage history is driving me nuts. In the video they told, you could move this feed to another place on the monitors, but i havnt found out, how to. Please give an option to close it down.
I contacted eve support. But you guess how the answer was. The worst on eve is their support. I understand, that you cant do both, developing and supporting, but in ten years and over 20 petitions, i cannot remember one petition, where i didnt want to quit after the answer streight away, because its so redicoulos, that you pay 260 euros a year for a game, and you cant get a competent contact to the game support. They kill you with standard text, which they copy and paste, never ask any questions, whats behind my ticket. So you could imagine, how the answer was. I wasnt right to write a petition, i should use the forums, which i do now. And get a lot of smack for it from goons, like everyone in this open world.
I tried to find friends to run sides, but nobody, i know, has all day long for a plexround.
I could buy a third account, with three its doable, but i really ask myself, if i am stupid enough to run three monitors, and i need to buy a new pc for it and tbh, i dont want to start from the beginning again, its too crazy after ten years.
So i can say, at least for me ninja plexing is over. They killed it with the new change, which is probably because the huge 0.0 alliances dont like getting their plex stolen so their influence was high enough for a change. Its a yes no maybe again, another reason could be, they wanna make it more interesting, but i cant see any interesting in total gamestress so what i have done is not doable anymore with two accounts.
I can live with it. I made enough with ninja plexing. So i will have some time now to use all the money in combat. After ten years of fun, a change is OK, i think.
I love this game, can do everything from boosters to tech 3 building, trading and wormholes, sanshas, missions and complex. I got more then 8.000 kills in that time too, lead on huzzah federation, lots of friends, all around the world, it was really worth.
Lets hope they balance it out again one time with better ships or weapons. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 20:38:00 -
[142] - Quote
First of all Im a big fan of rooks n kings and I kinda feel honored that one of their members wrote in my topic! Second there is an option to move the foating dmg indicator, its located in the options for HUD and its called "enter moving mode for messages". I have some very fresh experience with the CCP petition system: 1.) I asked them a question about wormhole anomaly despawn timers, they gave me a link to evelopedia, wormhole sections, 2.) After a server node restart, the whole server crashed and a full site of escalations in our wh (around 400-500+ mill ISK) disappeared, after 2 weeks of our petition to reimburst us they simply copy-pasted us the msg that they cant give it back to us, even tough in the reimburstment rules we found a point that says if any item lost due to server and not client failure, they will reimburst it.
And you shouldnt live with these changes, this game is nothing without its players and I cant see why would anyone benefit from loosing time investment, aka. useless SP! If someone is looking for harder content he should try incursions or wormholes, or i even dare say lvl 5 in lowsec and missions in curse are pretty hard and risky. This game always gets in to the same problem, the develpers not letting the community choose, they dont offer you a possibility. They only serve you what they think it will serve you best, without asking you. I say you wouldnt pay in a restaurant for something that you didnt order, same order apply here. |
Mund Richard
231
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 22:02:00 -
[143] - Quote
Technically, you didn't loose any items , so the second was only annoying on the wait part.
Linking evelopedia, if it had the answer, while not the nicest way (RTFM), works. If it didn't have the answer, well...
(not at all bump for the bump god) Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 09:41:00 -
[144] - Quote
daily bump, btw no the petition didnt help me in any way with the evelopedia link, Im the type of man who will search for his answer first and I only ask if i cant find it anywhere. Evelopedia has no information of such. |
Nessa Aldeen
The Sword and The Shield
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 11:06:00 -
[145] - Quote
TKL HUN wrote:Gerard Hareka wrote:TKL HUN wrote:Some personal experiences:
I used to run lvl4's sometimes in 0.0 before the patch in a tengu, there were no problems at all.
Today was the first time I tried a Worlds Collide lvl4 after the patch...well...
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?????
I have a good amount of sp, I have experience, etc etc.
I was hardly able to save my 3 bill worth tengu's ass in half hull in the last pocket.
The problem is not just the full pocket agro, but lots of frigates webbing and scramming after the patch, which didn't do this before the patch.
I know lots of new players from our training corp, they are afraid of lvl4's now, and they can't handle them...in HIGH SEC.
???????????????????????
This whole new AI thing is a big piece of crap... What did you expect from this CCP?
-Complexes? (in 0.0) hmm no, I can't do it. -Missions? (in 0.0) hmm, no I can't handle them -Mining? NO WAY
Then what?
You can't make money, and everything is getting more expensive, very nice... Since this affects bots as well , simple market mechanics will apply. Less people doing missions rewards will go up - it will be worth of fleeting up. Really? We did some complexes after the patch (10/10, 8/10) with 3 dps ships, and 2 logies (5 chars, 4 people total). Nothing dropped... Totally worth it!! If you want to do something against bots, I can tell you where to mess things up, in anoms and belts...
Obviously you haven't changed your Tengu to tank the full aggro. Bug or no bug, I tanked both rooms on full aggro without breaking a sweat (and mine isn't expensive at all) so unless your so-called 3-b setup is made of bull, it is very doable solo. That or your skills is like your setup is a bit -- meh.
And on another note, the drone AI change means you have to use a brain a bit instead of whining like a 5 yo. I like the missions to be hard, very hard and making it work requires some thinking. As such, for all those whiners, as in others would say, - "Adapt"
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 11:12:00 -
[146] - Quote
As i said before, if you want hard missions go and try lvl 5 or try missioning in curse or stain regions. I assure it will be harder than anything you know, and its not forcing others on what you want. I say you should adapt to the community and not reverse. |
Mund Richard
231
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 12:26:00 -
[147] - Quote
Nessa Aldeen wrote:As such, for all those whiners, as in others would say, - "Adapt" It's like if you'd have to work overtime IRL for the same salary but perhaps also with semi-broken or more buggy machinery, you'd complain to your family and friends about it, but since the economy is the way it is, you'll probably still do it... And adapt.
Now the same thing happening in a game you play to unwind and have a bit of fun? Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 13:44:00 -
[148] - Quote
This is a game, wich is benefitting from me if Im playing with it. On the other side, from my work I am benefitting and I do what I am asked to do. CCP should be doing what the community is asking of them, if they want to benefit from us. |
Samuel Wess
Happy Folks Happy Cartel
8
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 21:23:00 -
[149] - Quote
I am only complaining about affecting solo PVP. Try to kill a transport ship with a sabre on a gate, launch a bubble and agress it, while 3 BS shoot your sabre, see how well it goes. The same is with belt fights, the change as you said only advantages big alliance , their ratters are safe, their members travelling trough gates are safe, the NPC police now gives support to them. And their plexes are safe to the solo ninja plexer as the guy above explained it.
|
Vengeance Thirst
Sons Of Decebal
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 04:16:00 -
[150] - Quote
Before the AI patch I used to run sites in null sec with carrier or dominix.... yeah i like drones deal with it....
After the patch... lost a fighter on first site i went. Damn ting died so fast i couldnt target to rep it. My response was docking the carrier and moved to the incursion sites in high sec.
Problem with that was: Incursion sites can not be run as they are kept from respawning by griefers in noobships.
Possible Solution: Made petition to ccp. ->Petition response: griefing is valid tactic.
Real fix for null sec issue: Get the AI back the way it was in all null sec sites. No one is making any real isk like this.
And if you think that i'm not right think of this: Null sec was supposed to be a high risk high reword environment. With the new AI patch you turned that into a High risk low reword. As i usually make a site in 25 min for 30mil or so and if i loose a fighter per site thats - 25 mil... And no you cant blame my piloting I run sites in carrier for 3 years... in same carrier. I have 2 capital armor reppers that i use to keep my fighters up when they are getting shot. Problem is I don't had time to target the fighter before it dies, that's how fast they killing them...
Real fix for the incursion issue: Fire the ******** GM's and get some people that actually understand eve to be referees and watch over the fair play. Clearly define what is and what is not valid griefing tactic. |
|
Vengeance Thirst
Sons Of Decebal
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 04:18:00 -
[151] - Quote
Samuel Wess wrote:I am only complaining about affecting solo PVP. Try to kill a transport ship with a sabre on a gate, launch a bubble and agress it, while 3 BS shoot your sabre, see how well it goes. The same is with belt fights, the change as you said only advantages big alliance , their ratters are safe, their members travelling trough gates are safe, the NPC police now gives support to them. And their plexes are safe to the solo ninja plexer as the guy above explained it.
Didn't think of it like that but yes you are right and i agree with you. |
Mund Richard
231
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 08:40:00 -
[152] - Quote
Vengeance Thirst wrote:Real fix for null sec issue: Get the AI back the way it was in all null sec sites. No one is making any real isk like this. Oh, what a well-rounded approach to the issue affecting hi/low/nullsec! [/sarcasm] Sure I do see how solo carrier was made unreasonable with fighters. I might even not jump on the notice and say go sentry. But on the other hand, sitting in my BS in a site, I was literally laughing at the tackling SB that decloaked next to me after the expansion, and watched him burn under the fire of my scouts, and the whole friggin room!
Tengu Mach and Vindi still make isk like they used to I am told. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 10:04:00 -
[153] - Quote
Daily bump, Its unbelievable how ignorant is CCP to these kind of posts. How many posts or how many likes, what is required basically to get atleast a respond from the ones that were praying/begging to? Its outrageous that they simply ignore us! It seems like civilized solutions are not working. Sad... |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
369
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 10:29:00 -
[154] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Daily bump, Its unbelievable how ignorant is CCP to these kind of posts. How many posts or how many likes, what is required basically to get atleast a respond from the ones that were praying/begging to? Its outrageous that they simply ignore us! It seems like civilized solutions are not working. Sad... So, you weren't kidding when you implied that you really expect anything from this thread? Uh oh. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 10:42:00 -
[155] - Quote
As you can see, I am bumping and writing everyday since the patch. Yes I am hoping for something. Altough I am optimistic.. |
Marillio
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 11:56:00 -
[156] - Quote
CCP has never given something back, what they took, so dont think, you change something with daily bumping. I would be surprised, if a real developer would read this forum, maybe their support and we all know now probably, where they copy and paste their answers from.
Also i dont think, at least in my case, there is any interest in changing it, cause ninja plexing was a hurt to the big alliances and now they have the complex for themselves, which is fair, cause they hold the space. And they are doing them more then befor. I went though some regions and didnt find any signatures like befor the patch, they are all done now. They want us to find solutions and this is, what you find in these forums. You find other players, which help you with answers sometime.
So there is still a way to run complex with two accounts, not all kind of complex at the same time, so if you concentrate for example on radar and ladar and ignore all the others, there is a possibility to run them only, if you change some modules on the support account for a better tank. I went to syndicate yesterday, which is probably the easiest complex region, because of the serpentis only damping, and tried it out.
This setup works very fine:
Nighthawk (Damagedealer) High: Improved cloaking device 2 (against hostile probing) 6 Missile Launchers (Navy Scourge Missiles) Med: 10 MN Afterburner or Microwarp, if you have a nice Cap Management Invulfield, Kinetic and Thermic Hardener Large Shield Extender (Tank) Low: 3 Ballistic Controls (Damage) 2 Shield Power Relays Riggs core defence field purger 5 Hornets
The ship can still tank everything, when it receives remore repair from the support account. It takes little longer until all targets are dead, but its doable.
Tengu (Support: Scouting, Probing, Remote Repair High: Cloak, Salvager, Tractor Beam, Expanded Probe Launcher Med: 10 MWD, Kinetic, Thermal, Invulfield, Pithum C-Type Med Shield Booster, Dread Guristas Shield Amp, Code breaker or Analyzer, depends on which plextype you run Low: Cap Recharger Riggs: Cap Control Circuits
The Tengu can selftank serpentis easy with factionmodules, it should have a nice cap management and tech 2 riggs, then frigates cant hurt you, because missiles will kill frigates at every range and frigates are the most problem in complex, then neutralizers, so both should be always primary.
Its still a setup, where you are pretty mobile, they dont camp you in that long and you could run the 8/10 plex easy alone, if you know, howto kill the station in the end, when you burn 120km away with the agro and it stops repping. I havnt found a 10/10 yet, but i am sure, tank should hold. I use only officer and deadspace items, but should work with tech2 also, if you are little more carefully. You should be careful with the tank and get at range of the damage in the beginning of every stage. Neutralizers are the only problem, but with some warp-outs and -ins again you should kill them also.
In other space you should change the support to a loki or switch to armor, if you change the tank, so proteus or legion for support. Support must be a tech 3 because of the scouting, which is very dangerous in hostile regions. Its tougher to run, cause the electronic warfare is more difficult. If you receive too many neuts or get jammed on the support, while the damagedealer gets the rest of the agro, it could be a pain.
Guristas, Bloodraiders or Sanshas i need to findout, which damagedealer is the best. On sansha plex i used an oracle befor, which cannot tank any plex with the new change, but the oracle was a mean machine to run sansha plex, 15 minutes for an 8/10 complex was too good, I can understand this one.
Best is to find a friend for ninja plexing and use three or four accounts. Its also then possible to pew pew or fit analyzer on one supportship and the codebreaker on the other, so you can run most plex you find. The rewards are still good, if you have done 20 radars for example in a day, its just not that easy anymore as befor.
Lets hope for better rewards or some tech 3 battleships in the near future, which can make it easier again to steel complexs from the big alliances. Or maybe some more players reading this and getting motivated to run complex from other alliances space. It makes you very rich, of course and i would love to help out with it. |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
208
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 11:58:00 -
[157] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:As you can see, I am bumping and writing everyday since the patch. Yes I am hoping for something. Altough I am optimistic..
You're not alone. Whatever. |
Call Rollard
Grim Determination Academy Nulli Tertius
19
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 12:12:00 -
[158] - Quote
New NPC AI just makes mission running and PVE outside Incursions and WH more fun. You now have to do more to get your ISK.
Checking drones etc, it stops AFK missioning.
I hardly lost any drones during missions because the new AI is nothing like Incursion or WH.
WH is like this, its like they have FC's.
"Primary the drone! Primary all drones!
Now kill the Raven!" |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
208
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 18:13:00 -
[159] - Quote
I generally think nullbears are dumb and can only press F1.
Quote:You now have to do more to get your ISK. After this you just made my beliefs more stronger.
If you ever try a mission you'll see there is nothing new or "more to do". Your drones get insta poped in 90% cases, therefore watching them doesn't help and just wastes your time.
Quote:I hardly lost any drones Did you undock during that? Whatever. |
Vengeance Thirst
Sons Of Decebal
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 18:38:00 -
[160] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Vengeance Thirst wrote:Real fix for null sec issue: Get the AI back the way it was in all null sec sites. No one is making any real isk like this. Oh, what a well-rounded approach to the issue affecting hi/low/nullsec! [/sarcasm] Sure I do see how solo carrier was made unreasonable with fighters. I might even not jump on the notice and say go sentry. But on the other hand, sitting in my BS in a site, I was literally laughing at the tackling SB that decloaked next to me after the expansion, and watched him burn under the fire of my scouts, and the whole friggin room! Tengu Mach and Vindi still make isk like they used to I am told.
Hey man i know gunships work. But as I stated I like drone boats. Why would those be inefficient and other not? |
|
Mund Richard
231
|
Posted - 2013.01.06 20:26:00 -
[161] - Quote
Vengeance Thirst wrote: Hey man i know gunships work. But as I stated I like drone boats. Why should those be inefficient and other not? Also, why should only null benefit from a rollback? That was my beef with it. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 11:56:00 -
[162] - Quote
Daily bump! |
amurder Hakomairos
Fellowship Of Lost Souls Rebel Alliance of New Eden
9
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 15:47:00 -
[163] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Daily bump, Its unbelievable how ignorant is CCP to these kind of posts. How many posts or how many likes, what is required basically to get atleast a respond from the ones that were praying/begging to? Its outrageous that they simply ignore us! It seems like civilized solutions are not working. Sad...
they likely aren't reading and don't care. its been a month since the change without even a word from the devs |
Mund Richard
231
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 15:57:00 -
[164] - Quote
amurder Hakomairos wrote:Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Daily bump, Its unbelievable how ignorant is CCP to these kind of posts. How many posts or how many likes, what is required basically to get atleast a respond from the ones that were praying/begging to? Its outrageous that they simply ignore us! It seems like civilized solutions are not working. Sad... they likely aren't reading and don't care. its been a month since the change without even a word from the devs Well, if someone is really-really optimistic, he might interpret the silence being caused by the holidays and vacations, plus the time needed for discuss Things internally. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2013.01.08 12:00:00 -
[165] - Quote
Daily bump, maybe a proper patch will come out sometime near which is not only bug fixing but something that favors the dissatisfied! |
Samuel Wess
Happy Folks Happy Cartel
9
|
Posted - 2013.01.09 04:23:00 -
[166] - Quote
I doubt it will :) Harder content leads to more accounts. |
Mund Richard
244
|
Posted - 2013.01.09 12:42:00 -
[167] - Quote
Because Hard is defined by how tedious and annoying it is. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2013.01.09 13:00:00 -
[168] - Quote
daily bump |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2013.01.10 09:31:00 -
[169] - Quote
daily bump, I figured it out, the devs and probably all ccp is working so hard on dust 514 content, that they forget to watch feedback on their original game and the new copy paste AI. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 08:46:00 -
[170] - Quote
daily bump |
|
Mund Richard
257
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 09:14:00 -
[171] - Quote
Tripple bump, inb4 threadlock?
Had an interesting encounter yesterday. Only *one* elite frig shooting a T2 drone, and it was already in deep armor while trying to make it's way back, when his 4 buddies popped the lone webber. That's a frig alone, and not 5, and yet it took out the shields and most armor while webifying also. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
|
CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1445
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 13:48:00 -
[172] - Quote
Hello folks,
We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this.
NPCs target and kill my drones all the time in PvE after Retribution
- We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely than just bland launch drones and forget about they exist until all NPCs are dead. Having NPCs engage your drones if they are your primary source of damage is to be expected and we expect play styles to adapt in consequence.
- However, there is a fine balance to be reached here, and while we want more challenge in PvE, we don't want drones to be insta-killed without you having time to do anything to prevent it. The changes deployed during Retribution were too extreme, which is why we deployed a patch on December, 19th to alleviate this issue.
Quote: NPCs will now only target drones in their size category.
- Elite frigates and cruisers NPCs will go for small drones and above.
- Frigates and Cruisers NPCs will go for medium drones and above.
- Battleship NPCs will go for large drones.
NPCs tracking disruption is too strong since Retribution
This is another bug which should have been fixed on December, the 12th. If you still are having issue with Tracking Disruption NPCs please let us know by filing bug reports with the implied NPC names.
Quote:
- Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship.
We hope that helps a bit. |
|
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
163
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 14:06:00 -
[173] - Quote
Except previous to the patch that changed the AI, you actually did have to manage drone aggro. It was a fairly predictable system (generally speaking, if you shot a linked group of enemies, their hate would stay on you and not peel off to your drones at all after that), but it was still something you had to manage. The notion that it was ever, at all, a widespread thing for people to just put out drones and then go AFK while they mopped everything up, is so utterly absurd, and is more of a myth than anything else. Not because it was 100% impossible, but because it would have been a completely suboptimal way to run missions. If you were running missions that way, then you were nerfing yourself from the outset, no patching needed. The AI changes were a solution in search of a problem. |
Mund Richard
258
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 14:09:00 -
[174] - Quote
Thank you for giving a Dev reply.
In all honesty, since I started running L4s again (admittedly not long ago), I haven't lost any T2 drone, only T1s in L3s (that I purposly stress-tested a bit). However, I didn't yet get any of the missions I'm wary of regarding drones.
And that one elite frig almost killing a T2 was kindof foreboding, any time elites are on field, I first shoot the cruisers and only then launch light ones. Sniping them with sentries if there is any chance I'll lock them in time, and now I'm even training signature analysis to V to that end.
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:The notion that it was ever, at all, a widespread thing for people to just put out drones and then go AFK while they mopped everything up, is so utterly absurd, and is more of a myth than anything else. Not because it was 100% impossible, but because it would have been a completely suboptimal way to run missions. If you were running missions that way, then you were nerfing yourself from the outset, no patching needed. The AI changes were a solution in search of a problem. In a Raven though for instance, you could unlease drones, let them auto-kill frigs, and only target cruisers and above with your missiles. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 14:21:00 -
[175] - Quote
Hello,
I am glad that ccp care about these topics!
Altough I am aware of the changes ccp implemented against the drone syndrome(which is good and I agree with it), I still didnt get an answer for the smaller yet more annoying problems such us:
- small scale pvp ( tackle something in a belt or an anomaly and the whole pocket is agroing you and eventually killing you without help)
-High end exploration sites shooting logistic ships, making it impossible to finish with a single logi or extremely expensive ships.
I believe the balance still needs some work to do. |
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
165
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 14:35:00 -
[176] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:NPCs tracking disruption is too strong since RetributionThis is another bug which should have been fixed on December, the 12th. If you still are having issue with Tracking Disruption NPCs please let us know by filing bug reports with the implied NPC names. Definitely still bugged. Did Sansha version of Recon pt1 L4 this week and TDs still in effect even when they are showing as not being used. Hadn't realised this was 'fixed' so sadly didn't make a note of the NPC names - I will if it happens again.
Fear God and Thread Nought |
Tatiana W1sla
Toxic Subprime Assets Inc. Yulai Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 14:52:00 -
[177] - Quote
still bugged, at least for all sansha tracking disrupt ship |
rey Aumer
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 15:01:00 -
[178] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:NPCs tracking disruption is too strong since RetributionThis is another bug which should have been fixed on December, the 12th. If you still are having issue with Tracking Disruption NPCs please let us know by filing bug reports with the implied NPC names. Quote:
Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship. [/list] We hope that helps a bit.
Might want to check out this thread. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=178599
Lots of feedback and screenshots on how it isn't fixed. |
amurder Hakomairos
Fellowship Of Lost Souls Rebel Alliance of New Eden
17
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 15:03:00 -
[179] - Quote
LOL how can they not know the TD is still bugged? None of them play the game?
Question about the drone AI - why do my drones automatically attack exactly the target I DON'T want them to? Can we get a setting where I can tell drones to attack whoever I'm shooting? I thought 'focus fire' setting used to do this but for sure now it doesn't. |
Mund Richard
258
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 15:14:00 -
[180] - Quote
amurder Hakomairos wrote:Question about the drone AI - why do my drones automatically attack exactly the target I DON'T want them to? Can we get a setting where I can tell drones to attack whoever I'm shooting? I thought 'focus fire' setting used to do this but for sure now it doesn't. In a Blockade I had my sentries kill two triggers when they killed two-three ships while I was damped down to 8km lock range. Note how only one trigger spawns at a time... Even more interesting is when I start shooting at a battleship, and while my drones have focus fire on, they start shooting at two different ones.
It's not the drone that got a new AI, but the rats. Drones are as dumb as always, better to have them on passive, at least that way when a new wave of elite cruisers and frigs spawn, you have a chance to recall them. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
|
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 15:27:00 -
[181] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely than just bland launch drones and forget about they exist until all NPCs are dead. Having NPCs engage your drones if they are your primary source of damage is to be expected and we expect play styles to adapt in consequence. This is fine, but the problem is you made a change that makes a primary weapon system notably worse, where that weapon system was already suffering in comparison to the alternatives. If you really want drones to be "hands on" like guns, then there is one simple thing you could have done: take out drone auto-attack. This would cheese people off too, but it's a lot simpler and more direct way to get what you say you want, which is hands on PvE (for drone boats).
Auto attack is the bane of any game that has it, and some have wound up taking it out even years after it was introduced, to eliminate the issues it causes. You would be perfectly justified in taking auto-attack off drones if you wanted to, and actually people would love you for it if you also took the chance to make drones shoot at what the heck I tell them to shoot at, and KEEP SHOOTING AT IT until I tell them to stop, rather than going off on their own little A.D.D. roams like they do now.
The bigger problem here is that "fixing drones" to deal with all their underlying issues just isn't going to happen soon, unless there is something you know that you're not telling us about what's coming this year. Meanwhile people who spent months or years skilling into drone boats are now stuck with a mediocre weapon system, which is more fiddly and annoying to deal with than any of the alternatives, and which now has nothing to recommend it over guns or missiles.
It's fine to say that you want people to have to "manage" drones. But if your only solution is to have NPCs blow drones out of the sky, so that I have to "save" them constantly (thus nerfing my DPS during the time spent popping them in and out), then how about lets also have NPCs be able to shoot the turrets and launchers off all those gun and missile boats, and make people "retract" their turrets to "save" them as well.
Or . . . just make them work like guns and missiles do, where I tell them what to shoot, they shoot it, and the NPCs shoot at me in order to stop me doing that. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1036
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 15:32:00 -
[182] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks,
We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely I think this is the only beef I have. I respect you want to make PVE more engaging and PVP like. The problem isn't as much the change you have made to the NPC AI, but that the missions and other PVE sites are not very well designed for it.
People bring up Wormhole AI all of the time. Wormhole anoms however were designed for his AI.
As an example a C3 anom (I think is closest in difficulty to a level 4 mission) such as the Fortification stronghold, has a total of 13 NPC's between 3 waves.
Damsel in distress lvl 4 has a total of 35 NPC's over a total of 4 waves.
Serpentis Phi outpost (4/10 DED) has a total of 59 NPC's in multiple rooms.
This seems to exascerbate the NPC AI changes. It's one thing to have 2-3 NPC's target your drone. Its entirely another to have 10+ NPC's take a liking to your
|
Larloch TheAncient
Alpha Arms and Manufacturing What Alliance
36
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 15:59:00 -
[183] - Quote
If you think that NPC's shooting at your drones is annoying, and that it "nerfs the weapons class" , Try sansha TD's.
Your drones atleast get alittle damage in, Turrent boats can do NOTHING, to 3-5 TD's in both missions and complexes.
But guess what? We adapt, we survive, and occasionally we scream for help over comms.
If your worried about your drones getting killed, fit a Remote rep on your boat and keep them alive that way. With a small deadspace repper I was able to tank my small drones against an entire room.
You can do the same, stop whining and adapt.
They boosted Mission rewards with this update (due to not as many missions being run, so LP is worth more)
Be grateful for that, and happy that you don't have to deal with sansha TD's.
And Regular NPC's do pathetic damage compared to sleepers, and to only (mostly) 2 damage types.
Don't compare the 2. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1036
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 16:04:00 -
[184] - Quote
Larloch TheAncient wrote:And Regular NPC's do pathetic damage compared to sleepers, and to only (mostly) 2 damage types.
Don't compare the 2.
You can absolutely compare them in some fashion. The point being that sleeper sites were designed for the AI. that being harder hitting NPC's but lower numbers
Put it this way. they want PVE to feel more like PVP. When was the last time you soloed a swarm of 30+ ships in PVP? Sure in PVP people shoot my drones. But it is usually 1 guy. I can manage that.
Take 15 NPC frigs webbing and shooting your light drone. He goes pop. Hard to keep the buggers inside the short small RR range too.
|
Mund Richard
259
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 16:21:00 -
[185] - Quote
Larloch TheAncient wrote: They boosted Mission rewards with this update (due to not as many missions being run, so LP is worth more) Ah, yes! Silly me! Missions being nerfed is missions being buffed! How could I not see that!
Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
coolzero
The Replicators Li3 Federation
65
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 16:27:00 -
[186] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks, We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this. NPCs target and kill my drones all the time in PvE after Retribution
- We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely than just bland launch drones and forget about they exist until all NPCs are dead. Having NPCs engage your drones if they are your primary source of damage is to be expected and we expect play styles to adapt in consequence.
- However, there is a fine balance to be reached here, and while we want more challenge in PvE, we don't want drones to be insta-killed without you having time to do anything to prevent it. The changes deployed during Retribution were too extreme, which is why we deployed a patch on December, 19th to alleviate this issue.
Quote: NPCs will now only target drones in their size category.
- Elite frigates and cruisers NPCs will go for small drones and above.
- Frigates and Cruisers NPCs will go for medium drones and above.
- Battleship NPCs will go for large drones.
NPCs tracking disruption is too strong since Retribution
This is another bug which should have been fixed on December, the 12th. If you still are having issue with Tracking Disruption NPCs please let us know by filing bug reports with the implied NPC names.
Quote:
- Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship.
We hope that helps a bit.
what about sentry drones? |
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
38
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 16:33:00 -
[187] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks,
We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely I think this is the only beef I have. I respect you want to make PVE more engaging and PVP like. The problem isn't as much the change you have made to the NPC AI, but that the missions and other PVE sites are not very well designed for it. This has been my opinion, too. While "PvE should feel more like PvP" sounds nice, I have two problems with it:
1. Having two different playstyles (PvE and PvP) to appeal to two different types of players isn't a bad thing. Making PvE more like PvP can be seen as homogenizing the game, and might drive out folks who enjoy the fairly brain-dead "blow up mass amounts of ships" aspect. (Sometimes that's just what you need.)
2. Achieving said goal by starting with the current system and incrementally modifying it isn't really the way to go. PvP and PvE are simply too different; there isn't really a way to get from one to the other in neat, discrete steps. Instead, I think it would make more sense to leave the current (/previous) system alone and develop a new system with your stated goals separately. Make it a new agent type so that people have the choice of which to use. And if that's what you want to encourage people to eventually gravitate to, you can balance the payouts to make it a more favorable choice for min/maxers. (But leave the old system in place, for those who enjoy missions for their own sake and aren't doing them for hardcore max ISK/hr. That's the group that you're really risking scaring away with all this.) |
Mund Richard
259
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 16:42:00 -
[188] - Quote
coolzero wrote: what about sentry drones? They count as large.
Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis R.E.P.O.
124
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 16:50:00 -
[189] - Quote
Zor'katar wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks,
We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely I think this is the only beef I have. I respect you want to make PVE more engaging and PVP like. The problem isn't as much the change you have made to the NPC AI, but that the missions and other PVE sites are not very well designed for it. This has been my opinion, too. While "PvE should feel more like PvP" sounds nice, I have two problems with it: 1. Having two different playstyles (PvE and PvP) to appeal to two different types of players isn't a bad thing. Making PvE more like PvP can be seen as homogenizing the game, and might drive out folks who enjoy the fairly brain-dead "blow up mass amounts of ships" aspect. (Sometimes that's just what you need.) 2. Achieving said goal by starting with the current system and incrementally modifying it isn't really the way to go. PvP and PvE are simply too different; there isn't really a way to get from one to the other in neat, discrete steps. Instead, I think it would make more sense to leave the current (/previous) system alone and develop a new system with your stated goals separately. Make it a new agent type so that people have the choice of which to use. And if that's what you want to encourage people to eventually gravitate to, you can balance the payouts to make it a more favorable choice for min/maxers. (But leave the old system in place, for those who enjoy missions for their own sake and aren't doing them for hardcore max ISK/hr. That's the group that you're really risking scaring away with all this.)
Pretty much this. Altering the AI in missions came with obvious issues. Altering already-existing code causes problems that you can't forsee, which is just...obvious really. You had the full-aggro on warpin thing, you have all the e-war issues which are still ongoing, you had lights instapopped, meaning the AI then had to be tooled back into a hardcoded handholding thing where only the smallest and saddest NPC frigates will shoot at your lights. That wasn't the original intention of the AI.
Instead of doing this, dealing with all the issues, and compromising the original AI design, and risking losing some of their audience, CCP could have just implemented a new type of mission specifically designed with the new AI in mind. This would have been ADDED content, and not altered and rehashed content. |
Mund Richard
259
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 16:58:00 -
[190] - Quote
Inkarr Hashur wrote:That wasn't the original intention of the AI. Not the original communicated intention of the AI? *tinfoil off* ok, jokes aside That the AI had to be hacked so heavy-handedly really showed that it wasn't quite ready for the masses yet. I would really love my PvE be closer to PvP if it meant I wouldn't have to kill over 60 ships in a Mordus headhunter room alone, but say 5 that are hard, or someone mentioned 13 sleepers in one of their sites over multiple waves? And even then, it feels a tad bit like going with a maxed toon to gank some "lower level" chars. Or T1 armor cruisers in a Deadspace-fit Sleipnir if we want a more realistic and EVE-related PvP scenario?
On a sidenote, not the smallest and saddest frigs shooting at your lights, but the elite frigates (some moving 900m/s scrambling and webbing) plus the elite cruisers (that can have railguns/ect for 30+km orbit), and still can pop a frig when they spawn. But it's toned down, and haven't had it happen to me yet. In the luckily easier missions I got (where easy = lots of battleships, and less support for them, like Scarlet). Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
|
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis R.E.P.O.
124
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 17:09:00 -
[191] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Inkarr Hashur wrote:That wasn't the original intention of the AI. Not the original communicated intention of the AI? *tinfoil off* ok, jokes aside That the AI had to be hacked so heavy-handedly really showed that it wasn't quite ready for the masses yet. I would really love my PvE be closer to PvP if it meant I wouldn't have to kill over 60 ships in a Mordus headhunter room alone, but say 5 that are hard, or someone mentioned 13 sleepers in one of their sites over multiple waves? And even then, it feels a tad bit like going with a maxed toon to gank some "lower level" chars. Or T1 armor cruisers in a Deadspace-fit Sleipnir if we want a more realistic and EVE-related PvP scenario? On a sidenote, not the smallest and saddest frigs shooting at your lights, but the elite frigates (some moving 900m/s scrambling and webbing) plus the elite cruisers (that can have railguns/ect for 30+km orbit), and still can pop a frig when they spawn. But it's toned down, and haven't had it happen to me yet. In the luckily easier missions I got (where easy = lots of battleships, and less support for them, like Scarlet).
Quote: NPCs will now only target drones in their size category. Elite frigates and cruisers NPCs will go for small drones and above. Frigates and Cruisers NPCs will go for medium drones and above. Battleship NPCs will go for large drones.
Yes, I got a few things switched. Though any cruisers die very quickly to the guns of anyone flying a L4 capable ship. |
Mund Richard
259
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 17:28:00 -
[192] - Quote
Inkarr Hashur wrote: Though any cruisers die very quickly to the guns of anyone flying a L4 capable ship. Quite. Picking elite cruisers as primary with even greater zeal than ever before. But I need more guns. Never 'nuff Dakka! Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
49
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 18:31:00 -
[193] - Quote
Larloch TheAncient wrote:You can do the same, stop whining and adapt. I'll remind you of this advice when they make it so that NPCs can shoot the turrets off your ship. |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
211
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 18:32:00 -
[194] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks, We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this. NPCs tracking disruption is too strong since RetributionThis is another bug which should have been fixed on December, the 12th. If you still are having issue with Tracking Disruption NPCs please let us know by filing bug reports with the implied NPC names. Quote:
Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship. [/list] We hope that helps a bit.
Thank you letting us know this is being looked at, sorry on my part for being such a loud PITA but it often seems the best way to get noticed.
The current issues are outlined in the updated thread I'm running here
Could you confirm whether of not you believe that the current strength and stacking is how you would like them?
Not all of the issues could be considered bugs some are more just how the changes seem to be a little too strong for the current PVE styles (many ships vs one) I personally and many others are not looking for brain dead gameplay and look forward to the days where PVE and PVP are closer together. I would ask that CCP remember though that for a lot of players grinding anomalies and missions is the only income we have for PVP, we want challenging and engaging but we also want efficient and rewarding. I would say the current effects of Tracking Disruption falls under enraging, I have actually been spending less time playing EVE because of how irrigating it is to sit in an anomaly without being able to actually fight the NPC's
There are modules to overcome the effects of tracking such as tracking computers but for shield tanked ships like my Nightmare that's not always viable. The Tanks needed for PVE are pretty strong which doesn't leave much room for EWAR counters. Most PVP doesn't used active tanks any more for the reasons that they are just not strong enough to counter the incoming DPS and relies on logistics, that requirement for a simple level four mission or anomaly seems somewhat extreme though.
As a more broad approach I would say that the entire area of the game in regard to NPCs needs a looking atl. If your aim is to have NPCs act more like player ships there needs to be a lot of updates to them to reflect that, many weapons and ships have changed over time and the NPCs have (to my knowledge) remained the same. As I mentioned before active tanks are rarely used for fighting multiple opponents like PVE pits you against, if you wish to bring PVE and PVP closer I would recommend you look at how ships are required to be tanked so we can have free slots for Anti-EWAR. "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves." |
Tiger Armani
Mialto Corp The Last Chancers.
22
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 18:44:00 -
[195] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks,
We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely I think this is the only beef I have. I respect you want to make PVE more engaging and PVP like. The problem isn't as much the change you have made to the NPC AI, but that the missions and other PVE sites are not very well designed for it. People bring up Wormhole AI all of the time. Wormhole anoms however were designed for his AI. As an example a C3 anom (I think is closest in difficulty to a level 4 mission) such as the Fortification stronghold, has a total of 13 NPC's between 3 waves. Damsel in distress lvl 4 has a total of 35 NPC's over a total of 4 waves. Serpentis Phi outpost (4/10 DED) has a total of 59 NPC's in multiple rooms. This seems to exascerbate the NPC AI changes. It's one thing to have 2-3 NPC's target your drone. Its entirely another to have 10+ NPC's take a liking to your
Maybe this would be a good spot for CCP to fix the most unrealistic part of PVE. The enormous amount of NPC villains in mission. In LVL4 missions, one solo ship kill more than 40 ships. Make NPCs as powerful as capsuleer's ships and decrease the number of them in all missions.
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 18:59:00 -
[196] - Quote
"Maybe this would be a good spot for CCP to fix the most unrealistic part of PVE. The enormous amount of NPC villains in mission. In LVL4 missions, one solo ship kill more than 40 ships. Make NPCs as powerful as capsuleer's ships and decrease the number of them in all missions."
I would like that personally. |
Vince Snetterton
236
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 19:44:00 -
[197] - Quote
Tell you what Yiiterbum.
Why doesn't CCP create a video of one your best pilots running Buzzkill L4 in an Ishtar? Or a L2 mission with zillions of frigs in an Ishkur? Or Sansha Vengeance L4 in an Ishtar, Drone Proteus or Gila?
Or ANY of the Epic Arc missions in ANY drone boat. I soled (barely) the Gallente Epic Arc in an Ishtar before Drone Armageddon Dec 3rd.
You say you expect NPC's to insta-attack drones if they are the primary damage source, and that drone boat users have to adapt their tactics and fits. Why don't you show us the fits and tactics, in a video, that CCP has game-tested and know work NOW? |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1038
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 20:49:00 -
[198] - Quote
Well to be fair, if they want missions to truly be like PVP a mission would start with one ship. Once you tackle it, 15 of his NPC friends warp in and blap you |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 20:56:00 -
[199] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Well to be fair, if they want missions to truly be like PVP a mission would start with one ship. Once you tackle it, 15 of his NPC friends warp in and blap you
first a cyno, then PL drops 150 SC and 50 titans on you |
Melina Lin
Universal Frog
89
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 21:29:00 -
[200] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Having NPCs engage your drones if they are your primary source of damage is to be expected and we expect play styles to adapt in consequence. However, there is a fine balance to be reached here, and while we want more challenge in PvE, we don't want drones to be insta-killed without you having time to do anything to prevent it. The changes deployed during Retribution were too extreme, which is why we deployed a patch on December, 19th to alleviate this issue. Well, well. Maybe you should actually try some of your sites and missions more often. The problem isn't the change by itself, its the fact that a lot of your content was designed with the old AI in mind. Let me link you one of your lower tier complexes. There's 18 elite frigs in there, more spawn if you shoot the non-elite NPCs. Fully spawned its 25 elite frigs, a bunch of elite cruisers and some battlecruisers + sentries. Try this in a noob Drake, by all means bring a friend it's hysterical.
Look at all those raiders!
You are right about one thing, people will adapt and bring the hard counter. So it is not a big deal?
Oh, right, your goal was a more PvP like experience, a more engaging and fun PVE content! IMO, some drone aggro won't do, neither does some tracking disruption, what you need is more random spawns, (Whoa its Sansha but they have damps fitted. Them bastards!1), someone needs to tackle the overseer or he legs it, in general smaller skirmishes not this boring EHP grind we have today. Oh well, one can dream.
|
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Mund Richard
259
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 21:32:00 -
[201] - Quote
Oh and elite frigs and cruisers should drop and salvage T2 goodies, if it's like PvP. ... After I can bring more friends and logis than Red Crosses on that screenshot... Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Miks Rebelius
Griffin Capsuleers Ad-Astra
3
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 22:11:00 -
[202] - Quote
It's really sad that developers don't actually play their own game. |
Mund Richard
259
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 22:22:00 -
[203] - Quote
Miks Rebelius wrote:It's really sad that developers don't actually play their own game. They do.
But why would they play PvE? Outside wormholes incursions and the like? Solo? Especially L4s?
Why do we not join those? Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
193
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 22:34:00 -
[204] - Quote
Drones seemed fine when I did a few missions the other night. I saw a bunch of people complain about worlds collide, and my drones didn't even get shot at (Gurista/Serpentis). All night I only had one sentry drone take damage (oh noes 3,346isk repair bill).
still haven't seen how bad the tracking disruption is. tbh I don't know if I'll find out, really don't feel like doing missions. |
Mund Richard
260
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 22:50:00 -
[205] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Drones seemed fine when I did a few missions the other night. I saw a bunch of people complain about worlds collide, and my drones didn't even get shot at (Gurista/Serpentis). All night I only had one sentry drone take damage (oh noes 3,346isk repair bill). When I started running L4 missions again, and knew would play hours with them (have a few agents so I can decline a few), I opened a notepad to write down what I had. Flying one or two accounts, agro snapped between the two battleships mostly. Random is random?
Since I'm a droneophile (and just as much because small stuff getting in range is annoying) I concentrated on the small stuff first, and in the missions I had, there was pretty much no event that elite frigs got in range unless they spawned under 30ish km (Angel Extra), there I was mostly lucky and didn't get them attack the light ones that I didn't unleash before proper agro was gained on them (painters either work, or the random generator gave me it's blessing). And then one lonely elite frig in one mission (heh) caught a T2 light, chewed through both shields and armor even though it had 5 drones on it, but the web/scram if he had one on my drone failed through half-armor and it made it back, rat died shortly afterwards.
What I'm slightly concerned with, is that those agro snaps seem to happen maybe once or twice before I finish a room, if it's in one that has the wrong mix for my drones (many rail elite cruisers/BCs, or elite scram frigs if I have lights out), in the bad range ( < 30km), even a sentry could pop in an eyeblink, moreso freshly recalled light ones with their blooms multi-webbed.
It's not that I can't live with a drone loss, but I prefer to try and play ATK and avoid it. Always have. Also, I stopped using medium drones altogether (and never used heavies to begin with). Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Irya Boone
Escadron leader
154
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 00:27:00 -
[206] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks, We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this. NPCs target and kill my drones all the time in PvE after Retribution
- We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely than just bland launch drones and forget about they exist until all NPCs are dead. Having NPCs engage your drones if they are your primary source of damage is to be expected and we expect play styles to adapt in consequence.
- However, there is a fine balance to be reached here, and while we want more challenge in PvE, we don't want drones to be insta-killed without you having time to do anything to prevent it. The changes deployed during Retribution were too extreme, which is why we deployed a patch on December, 19th to alleviate this issue.
Quote: NPCs will now only target drones in their size category.
- Elite frigates and cruisers NPCs will go for small drones and above.
- Frigates and Cruisers NPCs will go for medium drones and above.
- Battleship NPCs will go for large drones.
NPCs tracking disruption is too strong since Retribution
This is another bug which should have been fixed on December, the 12th. If you still are having issue with Tracking Disruption NPCs please let us know by filing bug reports with the implied NPC names.
Quote:
- Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship.
We hope that helps a bit.
Si if i understand well npc now target your primary source or DPS ... So ...now call npc have FoF missiles when you attack them with missile or is if just four droneboat??help me i don't unerstand Me developer.....
Improve C2 class WH More anos more signs ...RENAME null sec system With the name Of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It xill be awesome-á |
Alek Row
Silent Step
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 01:00:00 -
[207] - Quote
Apologies for changing subject, but it was in the same patch.
- Create a new char, try to rat in Uedama, give up and move to another area...
We are talking about belt rats in a 0.5 system, I would like to know if that ECM chance is by design.
|
Bhock
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 04:42:00 -
[208] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:Tell you what Yiiterbum.
Why doesn't CCP create a video of one your best pilots running Buzzkill L4 in an Ishtar? Or a L2 mission with zillions of frigs in an Ishkur? Or Sansha Vengeance L4 in an Ishtar, Drone Proteus or Gila?
Or ANY of the Epic Arc missions in ANY drone boat. I soled (barely) the Gallente Epic Arc in an Ishtar before Drone Armageddon Dec 3rd.
You say you expect NPC's to insta-attack drones if they are the primary damage source, and that drone boat users have to adapt their tactics and fits. Why don't you show us the fits and tactics, in a video, that CCP has game-tested and know work NOW? I soloed the Gallente and Minmattar since the patch.
I do not think they can be done in Ishtar anymore. I did those in Domi Navi, full T2, and it is painful as heck. Now I have a transport with replacement drones, in station, and I buy them 10 by 10.
The Gallente mission Showtime, with THIRTEEN elites in the initial spawn (and the damp getting max range at 12km, so bad switch of targets and no control of drones), required 7 warp outs and 9 drones T2 for replacement, as they switch to the drones continuously (the BS have no range, so they kill the drones that are killing the web/scram frigs, then the damp cruisers to get some control, one day) and OS them.
So yes it is still possible to make the Gallente Epic (and the Minmattar is not much harder... just costlier), but much harder than before, and clearly out of reach of younger players (and an alt with logi has a chance to get OS on random switches... so no good anymore).
Meanwhile, on a Missile Boat kitter, they are still easy :p
CCP really need to re-evaluate some mission parameters for drone aggro. Potato Missioning was already slow and now it got worse, compared to other damage methods.
Other than that, I am for the NPC AI improvement, except for its terrible effect on drone boats.
p.s.: with the Elite switching, the drones often go on different targets (surely due to damp jams) and spread their damage for no effect (while you can see nothing, with 12km range on targeting, from ANY ONE damp)
p.s.2: I have the Caldari and the Ammar scheduled soon (but I hate the Caldari), so I will update |
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
164
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 05:10:00 -
[209] - Quote
I think others are right. The biggest problem with drones is that their AI behavior sucks. Sure, allow enemies to dampen me into oblivion. I'll drop some drones and handle them that way, right? Okay, great, but the drones usually end up attacking the precise thing you need them not to like a mission trigger, or a battleship off in the distance when you need them to be picking off cruisers or frigates. And the only way to get them to change targets is to scoop them back in, redeploy, and hope to the heavens that they'll choose a more suitable target this time (after waiting however many seconds for them to start firing on something by themselves).
Suggestion: Allow drone pilots some way to toggle through targets, or at least to let their drones know "Okay, you need to attack something else, not what you're attacking right now." Maybe there could be a right-click feature that said something like "Attack Frigates" or "Attack EWAR" something which would let us determine a priority, instead of having to scoop/redeploy over and over again hoping for the best. They are supposed to offer us the flexibility to deal with the kind of situation I outlined above, but they're too stupid to handle it in anything more than a cumbersome, haphazard way.
As things stand, CCP has smartened enemy AI, but left drones just as utterly stupid as they were before. This is the source of their increasing unsuitability for running L4s more than anything else. Either make drones smarter and give us more functionality, or change the AI back to the way it was before. |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
212
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 06:14:00 -
[210] - Quote
I think those who posted about how the issue is the design of the missions kind of got it spot on.
The NPC changes look great and work well in controlled environments designed for that kind of AI or EWAR. The problem is Missions and Anomalies were NOT made for smart AI or powerful EWAR. There are far too many NPCs to fight while they're this smart (insta-popping drones) or EWAR is things strong "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves." |
|
Rocket D'ni
x Infected x
3
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 06:37:00 -
[211] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks, We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this. NPCs target and kill my drones all the time in PvE after Retribution
- We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely than just bland launch drones and forget about they exist until all NPCs are dead. Having NPCs engage your drones if they are your primary source of damage is to be expected and we expect play styles to adapt in consequence.
- However, there is a fine balance to be reached here, and while we want more challenge in PvE, we don't want drones to be insta-killed without you having time to do anything to prevent it. The changes deployed during Retribution were too extreme, which is why we deployed a patch on December, 19th to alleviate this issue.
Quote: NPCs will now only target drones in their size category.
- Elite frigates and cruisers NPCs will go for small drones and above.
- Frigates and Cruisers NPCs will go for medium drones and above.
- Battleship NPCs will go for large drones.
NPCs tracking disruption is too strong since Retribution
This is another bug which should have been fixed on December, the 12th. If you still are having issue with Tracking Disruption NPCs please let us know by filing bug reports with the implied NPC names.
Quote:
- Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship.
We hope that helps a bit.
I'd been waiting for a reply for quite some time now. Really glad to actually see one about this. Though it was not what i had hoped for and i am sincerely sad that ill be letting one of my other level 5 mission accounts expire (3yrs old) in a day due to the drone thing and the risk increasing and rewards staying the same.
After that little fix-it patch on the 18th of Dec. It is still not possible to recall drones in time from 9km out for one of them to not die. From the response it appears this is now working as intended though L5's were forgotten. There are not that many frigates that point me in most missions, but they need to go down quickly as i am micromanaging quite a bit at that time and balancing the risk of being pwnd by probers and time actually spent in space. Its just not worth it to keep another account pulling missions with how much less i am doing them. Its not worth the effort anymore to me. I can pull t he easy level 4's with considerable less heartache and run them solo. |
Insenia Rascope
Sanguinary Photon
8
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 08:33:00 -
[212] - Quote
Quote: Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship.
It seems the chances of being tracking disrupted in The Blockade L4 (Sansha) is almost 100% [or I am terribly unlucky]. Last 5 times when I run that mission I had to use a missile-boat or bring along some friends.
Most of the time, when the second wave spawns, all cruisers TD (about 4 or 5). |
Duke Atreus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 09:24:00 -
[213] - Quote
As a new player with low SP and had my heart set on using a drone boat for exploring I guess I'll save myself the trouble and not renew my two accounts.
Oh well :( |
Flying Apocalypse
Fracture.
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 09:40:00 -
[214] - Quote
Sansha the blockade is insane with my paladin....
:Because being able to hit is too mainstream: http://imgur.com/a/Ce2iw#0
LOOKING FOR AMARR FOCUSED CHARACTER 20-30m sp https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183178&find=unread |
Duke Atreus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 09:58:00 -
[215] - Quote
While I understand the drone system may need a little love, I don't think changing enemy AI toward them helped the matter.
It adds a layer of complexity that other ships don't have to worry about. A Mach doesn't need to worry about the new enemy AI suddenly destroying its turrets or a Tengu's missile launchers which is exactly what it's like when an elite frigate decides to change its aggro and pop your light drones.
I may be missing something here but I just don't see the logic about these changes. Ok you think PVE should be more like PVP, in that case you'd need to scrap the entire mission system and start over. Tell me when a single BS has survived against 10+ other BS with cruisers and frigates tackling you? Let PVE be PVE.
|
Tauranon
Weeesearch
101
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 10:06:00 -
[216] - Quote
Duke Atreus wrote:As a new player with low SP and had my heart set on using a drone boat for exploring I guess I'll save myself the trouble and not renew my two accounts.
Oh well :(
Honestly I can't even think of a highsec exploration pocket where aggro on drones matters in any way on a sentry ishtar. I've also done the serp 3 and 4 with a blaster vexor, and it doesn't lose drones, even though I'm using mobile drones, and I've done quite a few lowsec serp things, where you only lose aggro if you get damped out of firing your guns.
Ishtar has a similarish sig to a sentry drone and its shooting and self repping ie the conditions are not highly conducive for switching.
|
Tauranon
Weeesearch
101
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 10:15:00 -
[217] - Quote
Duke Atreus wrote:While I understand the drone system may need a little love, I don't think changing enemy AI toward them helped the matter.
It adds a layer of complexity that other ships don't have to worry about. A Mach doesn't need to worry about the new enemy AI suddenly destroying its turrets or a Tengu's missile launchers which is exactly what it's like when an elite frigate decides to change its aggro and pop your light drones.
I may be missing something here but I just don't see the logic about these changes. Ok you think PVE should be more like PVP, in that case you'd need to scrap the entire mission system and start over. Tell me when a single BS has survived against 10+ other BS with cruisers and frigates tackling you? Let PVE be PVE.
The drone change affects non drone boats more than it does drone boats, as drone boats fielding lights kill stuff faster, and have more drone hps, and any drone boat pilot with half a brain uses sentries to snipe frigates at range anyway.
Whilst CCP was at it, they nerfed the tengu fit that had a better dps/projection combo than drones by some 20% dps. ie the fits that are really drone independent are simply not as good as they used to be. Even if you do have to manage your drones, you won't be _far_ behind.
Honestly 2-3 years ago, there were no Navy domi, no T2 drone mods, there was no DDAs at all, the only dps mods that affected drones were expensive rigs, and they only affected sentries, and a maxxed ishtar or dmi was horribly expensive because of navy omnis. |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
211
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 10:34:00 -
[218] - Quote
Duke Atreus wrote:While I understand the drone system may need a little love, I don't think changing enemy AI toward them helped the matter.
It adds a layer of complexity that other ships don't have to worry about. A Mach doesn't need to worry about the new enemy AI suddenly destroying its turrets or a Tengu's missile launchers which is exactly what it's like when an elite frigate decides to change its aggro and pop your light drones.
I may be missing something here but I just don't see the logic about these changes. Ok you think PVE should be more like PVP, in that case you'd need to scrap the entire mission system and start over. Tell me when a single BS has survived against 10+ other BS with cruisers and frigates tackling you? Let PVE be PVE.
Exactly my thoughts.
I do PvE because it's a PvE. If I want to do PvP I won't be looking for it on missions or anything else.
Whatever. |
Flying Apocalypse
Fracture.
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 10:42:00 -
[219] - Quote
The drone changes, altho annoying at times in my paladin, aren't that game breaking for me. I can usualyl recal lbefore they die...But sometimes they just die in a second without even a chance of recalling.
And the TD/damps/jams really need to be looked into better...This is not some pvp situation where only 1 of em is doing it on you, in some missions you have 10 ships doing it at once(look at my earlier screenshots) and you can't do **** when that happens LOOKING FOR AMARR FOCUSED CHARACTER 20-30m sp https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183178&find=unread |
Duke Atreus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 10:58:00 -
[220] - Quote
Tauranon wrote:Duke Atreus wrote:As a new player with low SP and had my heart set on using a drone boat for exploring I guess I'll save myself the trouble and not renew my two accounts.
Oh well :( Honestly I can't even think of a highsec exploration pocket where aggro on drones matters in any way on a sentry ishtar.
I'm not just talking about high sec exploration. The whole way they went about the changes just doesn't make sense.
Drones need attention but not like this. |
|
Mund Richard
263
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 12:38:00 -
[221] - Quote
Suddenly, somehow the Gurista rats seem a lot easier now. (and screenshot nicely shows how both optimal and falloff are crippled down by 90%)
Quote:The drone change affects non drone boats more than it does drone boats, as drone boats fielding lights kill stuff faster, and have more drone hps, and any drone boat pilot with half a brain uses sentries to snipe frigates at range anyway. Some non-drone boats are quite good at destroyin tacklers with their turrets/ect. Kiting Mach, Sleipnir, ect. Heck, I even heard about a Raven pilot not bothering with drones anymore, just adding a bit more exp rad/velocity and one more TP. Also, while your non-bonused drones hunt frigs, you can continue shooting a battleship without a notable drop in DPS, a Snake/Ishtar only makes battleships laugh while it's hobgoblins hunt a tackler.
Quote:I do PvE because it's a PvE. If I want to do PvP I won't be looking for it on missions or anything else. THIS
Quote: I can usualyl recal lbefore they die...But sometimes they just die in a second without even a chance of recalling. And that is withOUT blinking! Normally a human needs to blink every once in a while. Plus, L4s are boring enough, that you might want to turn your head from the screen for a few seconds, and look at the GF/Wife/BF you just agroed by not paying attention. Sure, paying attention to the game should be necessary, but accepting a mission shouldn't be requiring constant watching 5 small gray bars every second.
Heck, in other MMOs, I've played in solo and group situations while eating and having an eye on the TV, because I knew what will happen, or at least had a guess. Things sometimes went south, but usually not, and even then I had some time to react. Here? Reaction time doesn't matter on a webbed drone. There? it's not a biggie even if the whole thing blows in my face, rocks fall, everyone dies. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Jason13 Anzomi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 14:38:00 -
[222] - Quote
What agro's me the most is the attitude that CCP has always exhibited. To wit, they know better than the players who pay CCP to play the game.
I paid to play a game that was interesting and challenging. I picked drones to invest skill points because I like that style of play. Then the rug is yanked out from under my feet leaving me with no way to deal with the L3's and L4's since I didn't have a weapon or ship capable of dealing with them. So I spent a month on skilling up on turrets in order to shift to a new style of play that I did not want to play in the beginning!
Then they start reducing the damage they did to the game play, but by then I'm committed to going in an entirely different direction. But guess what, they now kill game play with turrets because of a small bug in TD management. Now I go into an L3 with a turret ship, get TD's from 5-20 ships at once, which continues even when the NPC TD is not being done!
So what do we have? We have CCP making radical game changes which nullified my original game play style (drone boats), so I switch to a different (turrets) game style and then CCP screws up and kills that game style.
The reason being for these changes and bugs? Oh, we know better than you and want to make your PvE more like PvP even though the missions do not lend themselves to this change. Oh, and we know there was a bug and we fixed it - even though there are numerous screen shots showing that it is still broken. Oh, and if you just change to a third game style and use some other weapon everything will be fine.
Well CCP, I've got a an answer to your arbitrary changes ruining the game I (past tense) wanted to play.
F U CCP! |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
52
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 17:37:00 -
[223] - Quote
The supposed size bias is not working. Today I watched a Core Lord Admiral (battleship sized NPC) shoot at my Hammerheads continuously the entire time they were out. The stupid thing is, he was actually hitting them with ease as well, and I have Drone Nav IV + two DNCs on the fit. Apparently NPCs have magical guns that ignore sig radius and have infinite tracking. Cruiser sized rats were also happily blowing my Hobs out of the sky all through the same mission. |
dexington
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
535
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 17:49:00 -
[224] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Having NPCs engage your drones if they are your primary source of damage is to be expected and we expect play styles to adapt in consequence.
Adapt?... do you mean start flying ships with less bonus to drone damage and more bonus to guns, that is not adapting it's changing ship.
GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥ |
Mund Richard
264
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 18:17:00 -
[225] - Quote
Freighdee Katt wrote:The supposed size bias is not working. Today I watched a Core Lord Admiral (battleship sized NPC) shoot at my Hammerheads continuously the entire time they were out. The stupid thing is, he was actually hitting them with ease as well, and I have Drone Nav IV + two DNCs on the fit. Apparently NPCs have magical guns that ignore sig radius and have infinite tracking. Cruiser sized rats were also happily blowing my Hobs out of the sky all through the same mission. I still have no use for the drone nav thing, costs a mid slot, too expensive to fit.
Could it be, that the drones were out when the good admiral spawned, or something like have their sigs bloomed under MWD? Because as far as I can tell, new waves can target any drone like they have before, and drones were only made immune to the re-targeting part of the random AI. Nor are they immune to proximity agro (also first target acquisition). Furthermore, when a medium drone uses it's MWD, it's sig grows to the size of a large drone's, so that may also be the issue.
Or who knows. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Crash Lander
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 19:03:00 -
[226] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks, We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this. ... NPCs tracking disruption is too strong since RetributionThis is another bug which should have been fixed on December, the 12th. If you still are having issue with Tracking Disruption NPCs please let us know by filing bug reports with the implied NPC names. Quote:
Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship. [/list] We hope that helps a bit.
Dear CCP Ytterbium, no this doesn't help at all. I'm a dev and I work on large scale projects, this is really not how to handle a change like this. You or someone else @ CCP made a change/fix to tracking disruption and AI across the board likely to refactor/simplify/improve the code, so far great! Standard practice in this case is to regress all the affected code and content, which clearly wasn't done. What I'm guessing happened instead was a quick smoke test on a few missions/plexes and people called it done. Now you are asking your users to file bugs for you.
Now the general feedback is: 1) On Sansha frigate and cruiser heavy content (whatever it is) there is too much TD. 2) TD has no stacking penalty so the player is crippled. 3) Either the UI doesn't always show that you are being TDed, or there is a bug that TD on the player is not deactivating.
I suggest you go and do what you should have done at the beginning. Regress the content and fix it. Not coming back after a month with a "it should have been fixed, if not file bugs for it".
Regards, An almost angry customer |
Vince Snetterton
238
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 21:15:00 -
[227] - Quote
Crash Lander wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks, We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this. ... NPCs tracking disruption is too strong since RetributionThis is another bug which should have been fixed on December, the 12th. If you still are having issue with Tracking Disruption NPCs please let us know by filing bug reports with the implied NPC names. Quote:
Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship. [/list] We hope that helps a bit. Dear CCP Ytterbium, no this doesn't help at all. I'm a dev and I work on large scale projects, this is really not how to handle a change like this. You or someone else @ CCP made a change/fix to tracking disruption and AI across the board likely to refactor/simplify/improve the code, so far great! Standard practice in this case is to regress all the affected code and content, which clearly wasn't done. What I'm guessing happened instead was a quick smoke test on a few missions/plexes and people called it done. Now you are asking your users to file bugs for you. Now the general feedback is: 1) On Sansha frigate and cruiser heavy content (whatever it is) there is too much TD. 2) TD has no stacking penalty so the player is crippled. 3) Either the UI doesn't always show that you are being TDed, or there is a bug that TD on the player is not deactivating. I suggest you go and do what you should have done at the beginning. Regress the content and fix it. Not coming back after a month with a "it should have been fixed, if not file bugs for it". Regards, An almost angry customer
You have to also remember where most of the dev's come from: null sec. Soundwave = goons, Fozzie = PL, Screegs = goons, Falcon = Veto, Dolan = Test, to name just a few.
When do you think was the last time any of the above ran a mission for ISK grinding? Consider the views expressed by oh so many null sec players on these forums. Then ask yourself, "Why would any of the devs who ran in null sec have a different opinion that the typical null sec poster?"
If you look at the background of many of the dev's, the lack of empathy displayed by the dev's re: missions is perfectly understandable.. |
Mund Richard
266
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 21:40:00 -
[228] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote: If you look at the background of many of the dev's, the lack of empathy displayed by the dev's re: missions is perfectly understandable.. And the solution is to **** them off, even those that may be unbiased.
Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 21:55:00 -
[229] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Vince Snetterton wrote: If you look at the background of many of the dev's, the lack of empathy displayed by the dev's re: missions is perfectly understandable.. And the solution is to peeve them off, even those that may be unbiased. People in null doing sites are probably just as affected by TD, and the HM nerf (if they haven't refit to HAM already).
I live in null sec, and i started the topic :) I believe I am an example that null sec players are frustrated as well. |
Annunaki soldier
Segmentum Solar Nulli Legio
61
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 22:12:00 -
[230] - Quote
it affects null sec as well. Those changes were done to get the content more intresting. I can understand that. But that content was never balanced to accept those changes. As for ccp devs , i dont believe they actually read all stuff. There are many reports on test forums that should have been concidered. Though we see things comming , reports being exactly the same , then going again back to fix things .. Ride hard, live with passion-á |
|
Flying Apocalypse
Fracture.
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 23:06:00 -
[231] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Suddenly, somehow the Gurista rats seem a lot easier now. (and screenshot nicely shows how both optimal and falloff are crippled down by 90%) Quote:The drone change affects non drone boats more than it does drone boats, as drone boats fielding lights kill stuff faster, and have more drone hps, and any drone boat pilot with half a brain uses sentries to snipe frigates at range anyway. Some non-drone boats are quite good at destroyin tacklers with their turrets/ect. Kiting Mach, Sleipnir, ect. Heck, I even heard about a Raven pilot not bothering with drones anymore, just adding a bit more exp rad/velocity and one more TP. Also, while your non-bonused drones hunt frigs, you can continue shooting a battleship without a notable drop in DPS, a Snake/Ishtar only makes battleships laugh while it's hobgoblins hunt a tackler. Quote:I do PvE because it's a PvE. If I want to do PvP I won't be looking for it on missions or anything else. THIS Quote: I can usualyl recal lbefore they die...But sometimes they just die in a second without even a chance of recalling. And that is withOUT blinking! Normally a human needs to blink every once in a while. Plus, L4s are boring enough, that you might want to turn your head from the screen for a few seconds, and look at the GF/Wife/BF you just agroed by not paying attention. Sure, paying attention to the game should be necessary, but accepting a mission shouldn't be requiring constant watching 5 small gray bars every second. Heck, in other MMOs, I've played in solo and group situations while eating and having an eye on the TV, because I knew what will happen, or at least had a guess. Things sometimes went south, but usually not, and even then I had some time to react. Here? Reaction time doesn't matter on a webbed drone. There? it's not a biggie even if the whole thing blows in my face, rocks fall, everyone dies.
Did you also notice in the 2nd/3rd picture(the 1st kinda failed) thamy tracking also got a gigantic hit? it went from 0.004 to 0.0004 LOOKING FOR AMARR FOCUSED CHARACTER 20-30m sp https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183178&find=unread |
Mund Richard
267
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 23:13:00 -
[232] - Quote
Flying Apocalypse wrote:Did you also notice in the 2nd/3rd picture(the 1st kinda failed) thamy tracking also got a gigantic hit? it went from 0.004 to 0.0004 For the hell of it, I looked at the Relevation: 0,002 tracking with Dual Giga Beam according to EFT... You were tracking 3 times as bad as a Dread with no tracking mod installed... Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Vince Snetterton
238
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 02:03:00 -
[233] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Mund Richard wrote:Vince Snetterton wrote: If you look at the background of many of the dev's, the lack of empathy displayed by the dev's re: missions is perfectly understandable.. And the solution is to peeve them off, even those that may be unbiased. People in null doing sites are probably just as affected by TD, and the HM nerf (if they haven't refit to HAM already). I live in null sec, and i started the topic :) I believe I am an example that null sec players are frustrated as well.
Yes, there is no doubt that the rank and file in null are impacted as well.
Soundwave was a director in goons. Falcon ran Veto.
I can't speak about the other devs picked up out of null sec, but tell me, when was the last time a goon director, or any director of a major null sec alliance, had to run missions, anoms or belts, or mined, to pay for anything? |
Dzajic
88
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 02:18:00 -
[234] - Quote
dexington wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Having NPCs engage your drones if they are your primary source of damage is to be expected and we expect play styles to adapt in consequence. Adapt?... do you mean start flying ships with less bonus to drone damage and more bonus to guns, that is not adapting it's changing ship. This. Only adaptation is not flying those ships. Silly thing is that my potato gets far less drone agro than Ishtar. According to that bit of dev wisdom its to be expected because shar gets larger part of its damage from drones. Way to adopt is... not fly ishtar. |
Flying Apocalypse
Fracture.
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 03:14:00 -
[235] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Flying Apocalypse wrote:Did you also notice in the 2nd/3rd picture(the 1st kinda failed) thamy tracking also got a gigantic hit? it went from 0.004 to 0.0004 For the hell of it, I looked at the Relevation: 0,00287 tracking with Dual Giga Beam according to EFT? You were tracking almost 3 times worse than a Dread with no tracking mod installed? ...
That might have been due to aurora ammo(0.25x tracking) with gleam it starts at like 0.05 I believe. But still insanely bad tracking after TD, not to mention no range at all...
In game I explained it to some friends that trying to hit a battleship was like trying to hit a frigate with a revelation. LOOKING FOR AMARR FOCUSED CHARACTER 20-30m sp https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183178&find=unread |
Sarah Flynt
EvRes
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 03:53:00 -
[236] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:You have to also remember where most of the dev's come from: null sec. Soundwave = goons, Fozzie = PL, Screegs = goons, Falcon = Veto, Dolan = Test, to name just a few.
When do you think was the last time any of the above ran a mission for ISK grinding? Consider the views expressed by oh so many null sec players on these forums. Then ask yourself, "Why would any of the devs who ran in null sec have a different opinion that the typical null sec poster?"
If you look at the background of many of the dev's, the lack of empathy displayed by the dev's re: missions is perfectly understandable.. No, we don't have to remember that. This is not some hobby project, this is their job. If what you are saying would even be remotely true, everybody with that attitude should be fired. Immediately.
From my own experience I fully agree with Crash Lander, although this is only half of the story. A change like this, which affects so many different game settings, should have been run intensivly through the QA department (if something like that even exists and by now I seriously doubt that this is the case). This was obviously not the case.
If the price explosion for salvaged materials since the early december patch is any indicator, I'd say that many people fly a lot less missions or stopped completely (as I did). If that was your goal CCP: Congratulations, you have achieved it. |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
211
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 07:59:00 -
[237] - Quote
I wonder why everyone forgot about Dampers. I mean you can't do Serpentis Blockade if you're not using Drone ship. Even in a drone ship you still have problems. Whatever. |
Flying Apocalypse
Fracture.
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 10:52:00 -
[238] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:I wonder why everyone forgot about Dampers. I mean you can't do Serpentis Blockade if you're not using Drone ship. Even in a drone ship you still have problems.
I fly in amarr space, and sadly only encounter serpentis 1 in a 100 missions :| the mission I had to do was quite, irritating, as well for lack of a better word. I couldn't lock further than 18km and locking a frigate took 100 seconds...permanently... LOOKING FOR AMARR FOCUSED CHARACTER 20-30m sp https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183178&find=unread |
Marillio
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 13:17:00 -
[239] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:Duke Atreus wrote:While I understand the drone system may need a little love, I don't think changing enemy AI toward them helped the matter.
It adds a layer of complexity that other ships don't have to worry about. A Mach doesn't need to worry about the new enemy AI suddenly destroying its turrets or a Tengu's missile launchers which is exactly what it's like when an elite frigate decides to change its aggro and pop your light drones.
I may be missing something here but I just don't see the logic about these changes. Ok you think PVE should be more like PVP, in that case you'd need to scrap the entire mission system and start over. Tell me when a single BS has survived against 10+ other BS with cruisers and frigates tackling you? Let PVE be PVE.
Exactly my thoughts. I do PvE because it's a PvE. If I want to do PvP I won't be looking for it on missions or anything else.
Good point. Let PVE be PVE.
Coming home from work, undocking in space and do some PVE stuff for fun. Buy yourself a ship from the money and go out kill somebody. PVP is a very expensive hobby, which should be funded easy. |
Charlie Jacobson
48
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 14:09:00 -
[240] - Quote
The only thing I really want changed is to have a hotkey to launch a group of drones. I hate all the extra mouseclicks I have to do when the keyboard would be so much faster. |
|
Mund Richard
267
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 14:34:00 -
[241] - Quote
Charlie Jacobson wrote:The only thing I really want changed is to have a hotkey to launch a group of drones. I hate all the extra mouseclicks I have to do when the keyboard would be so much faster. 6 different flights of drones in a Domi I used to have. Just handling the window alone when recalling one flight and launching another (both expanded) was annoying, and took up quite a bit of screen-estate. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 14:51:00 -
[242] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Charlie Jacobson wrote:The only thing I really want changed is to have a hotkey to launch a group of drones. I hate all the extra mouseclicks I have to do when the keyboard would be so much faster. 6 different flights of drones in a Domi I used to have. Just handling the window alone when recalling one flight and launching another (both expanded) was annoying, and took up quite a bit of screen-estate.
To be honest this topic isnt about annoying windows and lack of commands that would help easier drone usage. Its more about reviving the PVE from its current state which is bad. No offense, but keep it close to the original topic, please. |
Mund Richard
267
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 16:35:00 -
[243] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote: To be honest this topic isnt about annoying windows and lack of commands that would help easier drone usage. Its more about reviving the PVE from its current state which is bad. No offense, but keep it close to the original topic, please. ... Well, then, assignable hotkeys for different flights, or let them predictably go alphabetically, so I can have a "aaaarghh"-named flight that's hotkey I can faceroll on, when I am in a general state of panic?
Still not PvE enough, just user ease, and off topic. I'll let you solo bump the thing. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Guer
Goodwill.
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 17:10:00 -
[244] - Quote
CCP PvE design:
1. Put a single player ship against dozens of NPCs. 2. NPCs are stupid and and various tactics exist to exploit their weaknesses. Mission design and payouts balanced along these lines. 3. Unhappy that NPCs don't behave more like players, as if this was ever some kind of goal. 4. Make NPCs behave more like players. Explode drones, stronger ewar. 5. Don't adjust npc spawn numbers, don't adjust npc ewar chance, don't implement stacking penalties for ewar or webs. 6. Expect drone users to play the tank-dps-healer game without any aggro management tools. 7. Tell players to enjoy their more interesting gameplay. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
101
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 23:03:00 -
[245] - Quote
Guer wrote:CCP PvE design:
1. Put a single player ship against dozens of NPCs. 2. NPCs are stupid and and various tactics exist to exploit their weaknesses. Mission design and payouts balanced along these lines. 3. Unhappy that NPCs don't behave more like players, as if this was ever some kind of goal. 4. Make NPCs behave more like players. Explode drones, stronger ewar. 5. Don't adjust npc spawn numbers, don't adjust npc ewar chance, don't implement stacking penalties for ewar or webs. 6. Expect drone users to play the tank-dps-healer game without any aggro management tools. 7. Tell players to enjoy their more interesting gameplay.
Most of the PVE predates rigs, marauders, strategic cruisers fixes to T2 ammo, tieracide etc and is IMO fairly underwhelming even with drone aggro.
|
Theron Urian
The Moirae Syndicate
25
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 23:44:00 -
[246] - Quote
If CCP is so interested in hooking new players and keeping them, why do they seem to not want to touch PvE with a 10 foot pole? And when they do touch PvE its these little silly changes like the "new AI" and then call it done.
Here is a fact for you, the majority of new players will start with and get the first impression of the game from PvE.
Overhaul the whole PvE system, there are tons of threads and ideas all over the forums to take ideas from. Hook them new players and get them in to the game and roll in new subscriptions.
You can put as much info in to the new player experience as you want to help with the initial "learning curve" but if the content that they will be doing is not fun you will never keep them with the promise of "Keep going! PvP, incursions, and other things you can do once you have either purchased plex or grind the boring PvE are great!"
Alpha striking 20-40 red +'s is not "entertaining PvE" |
Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
9
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 01:11:00 -
[247] - Quote
Today I tried L4 Worlds Collide in my Paladin. Fit is cap stable with 2 faction webs, mega pulse II, and no tracking modules.
My mission alt has over 100m sp, so skills are not a problem.
I cleared the angel side first, had no problems at all, using double 90% webs I could kill even the elite angel frigs with mega pulse II easily. Never used drones at all in angel side.
Cleared the mercenary room easily, no need for drones.
Went back for the sansha side, expected ewar problems but wanted to try anyway. Cleared the first sansha room easily, sniped the frigates and other ships from 55km, no need for drones. Second sansha room started out ok, cleared out the first 2 groups, but the 3rd group by the gate gave me problems. I was hit with 1-3 tracking disrupters. It took a little longer, but I was able to still clear all ships within web range. After that, it only left 2 battleships and a few elite cruisers. The cruisers were unkillable due to tracking disruption and stronger tanks than I remember. I sat there for about 45 minutes shooting one sansha cruiser that was I think 38km away. The tracking disruption never stopped, even when the icon was gone, I repeatedly checked my gun tracking and it was like 0.01. Finally put out 3 sentry drones, and still could not break the tank of the elite cruisers. Their stronger rep rates combined with the endless ewar just caused too many shots to miss. I gave up eventually and warped out.
I really hope CCP will fix this very frustrating ewar problem with the sansha's.
Is it wrong to expect that I can successfully mission in Amarr space using Amarr ships?? |
Akuma Tsukai
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
102
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 01:24:00 -
[248] - Quote
Yes it is. Dont you know that in amarr space you should use Caldari missile boats? /sarcasm Btw on a side note are serps still thermal weak? I actually began to think about moving this char to gallente space. |
Mund Richard
269
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 01:33:00 -
[249] - Quote
Akuma Tsukai wrote:Yes it is. Dont you know that in amarr space you should use Caldari missile boats? /sarcasm Btw on a side note are serps still thermal weak? I actually began to think about moving this char to gallente space. Last time I shot some serpentis as an experiment, the kinetic missiles did more damage consistently (assuming I didn't have so many defenders in a row) on a non-kinetic bonused ship, thermal secondary weakness.
The named guy they have though, has a tough kinetic resist, so shoot Therm there. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Akuma Tsukai
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
102
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 01:34:00 -
[250] - Quote
I just cant help but **** up with the idiocity posted by one of the devs. So....
We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this. - following is good, how about getting of your asses and actually fixing something?
We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely than just bland launch drones and forget about they exist until all NPCs are dead. Having NPCs engage your drones if they are your primary source of damage is to be expected and we expect play styles to adapt in consequence. - you do know that PVE and PVP are 2 different things? In case you missed, even abbreviation is different. Also if they need to be closer, start by greatly reducing number of ships, then increase their damage and value, introduce builds and tanks variations (list goes on for about 5 km) and generally start to work instead of sitting still. By the way if youre into merging PVP and PVE into one i reccomend you learn the history, aka Ultima Online.
However, there is a fine balance to be reached here, and while we want more challenge in PvE, we don't want drones to be insta-killed without you having time to do anything to prevent it. The changes deployed during Retribution were too extreme, which is why we deployed a patch on December, 19th to alleviate this issue. - And you have failed miserably. Initial patch was a huge nerf to drones but second patch nerfed it even further. Now i cant even tank BSes with my light drones, thank you oh so much my dear coke lovers.
NPCs tracking disruption is too strong since Retribution
This is another bug which should have been fixed on December, the 12th. If you still are having issue with Tracking Disruption NPCs please let us know by filing bug reports with the implied NPC names. - you gotta be blind and not play yor own game not to notice an issue with ALL ewar. TD just being most annoying. Oh and btw, ******* up ewar and ewar counter (drones) at the same time was a brilliant idea. Can i get a personal info of the man responsible? I have some assasins to hire...
Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship. [/quote][/list] We hope that helps a bit - and you ****** up again. Ill just link my usual thread again, its still the same out there. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2389092#post2389092
Have a nice day.
|
|
Hazen Koraka
HK Enterprises
168
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 08:54:00 -
[251] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks,
We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this.
How's about Please getting that drone UI tweak so you know when your drones are targetted?
Eve gate quoting ate my post! Re-edited. Exploration is Random. Random is Random... or is it?! http://docs.python.org/2/library/random.html |
Signal11th
Against ALL Anomalies
867
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 09:35:00 -
[252] - Quote
Hazen Koraka wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks,
We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this.
How's about Please getting that drone UI tweak so you know when your drones are targetted? Eve gate quoting ate my post! Re-edited.
You do already, the ships that were red boxing you now yellow box you. When they do this they have changed to targeting your drones.
God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came second and won a toaster. |
Sam Korak
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 09:50:00 -
[253] - Quote
They could at least increase the ISK/hour for missions now with the new AI. |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
214
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 10:00:00 -
[254] - Quote
Signal11th wrote:Hazen Koraka wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks,
We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this.
How's about Please getting that drone UI tweak so you know when your drones are targetted? Eve gate quoting ate my post! Re-edited. You do already, the ships that were red boxing you now yellow box you. When they do this they have changed to targeting your drones.
Although it doesn't help - the moment they target your drone(s) it instantly dies 80% of the time. Whatever. |
|
ISD TYPE40
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3939
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 10:04:00 -
[255] - Quote
Forum Rules wrote:
29. Personal attacks and abuse of CCP staff.
There has been a worrying trend of increased personal attacks on developers on our own forums as of late, this will not be tolerated. Our forums are an area for players to exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who abuse staff will receive a permanent forum ban across all of their accounts which will not be subject to review at any time.
30. Rumor threads and posts
Rumor threads and posts which are based off no actual information and are designed to either troll or annoy other users will be locked and removed. Players who engage in these type of threads can expect to receive a warning and ban.
Some posts have been removed from this thread for breaching the above rules, subsequently any replies to those posts will also have been removed, though not for breaching any rules themselves. Please note that attacks on CCP staff and baseless rumour posting in an attempt to stir up trouble is not constructive and serves only to disrupt the workings of these forums.
Anyone found to be repeatedly in breach of the rules of these forums can and will be issued with warnings and/or a forum ban of indeterminate length. Please have a little respect for the other forum users and CCP staff when posting on these forums, thank you - ISD Type40. ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
214
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 10:47:00 -
[256] - Quote
ISD TYPE40 wrote:Please have a little respect for the other forum users and CCP staff when posting on these forums, thank you - ISD Type40.
You know, I wouldn't play this game if I had no respect for CCP. I do have it, but it fades aways little by little.
The thing is CCP has no respect for the players. Making this game unplayable for a certain type of players, making NPC AI changes with Zero testing, making EWAR unbearable like on Serpentis/Sansha rats and many other things, all of those things show the absence of CCP's respect for the players. Whatever. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
118
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 10:49:00 -
[257] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:ISD TYPE40 wrote:Please have a little respect for the other forum users and CCP staff when posting on these forums, thank you - ISD Type40. You know, I wouldn't play this game if I had no respect for CCP. I do have it, but it fades aways little by little. The thing is CCP has no respect for the players.Making this game unplayable for a certain type of players, making NPC AI changes with Zero testing, making EWAR unbearable like on Serpentis/Sansha rats and many other things, all of those things show the absence of CCP's respect fot the players.
This sums up all of it. I agree. |
|
CCP Falcon
2131
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 10:57:00 -
[258] - Quote
This thread has been cleaned a little.
So what people are going to do now, is take a deep breath, step away from the keyboard and calm down.
Any further attacks made on CCP Employees and members of ISD will be dealt with to the full extent of the forum rules.
Be aware of this and think before you post.
CCP Falcon -á || -á EVE Community Team -á || -á EVE Illuminati -á || -á Live Events Organizer
@CCP_Falcon -á || -á-á@EVE_LiveEvents |
|
Duke Atreus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 11:03:00 -
[259] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:This thread has been cleaned a little.
So what people are going to do now, is take a deep breath, step away from the keyboard and calm down.
Any further attacks made on CCP Employees and members of ISD will be dealt with to the full extent of the forum rules.
Be aware of this and think before you post.
Do you have any plans to rethink about NPC AI changes? I'm not saying we need to revert to the old way but there needs to be some improvements.
It seems like you made these changes with very little testing, you can't deny that so please tell us your thoughts on the matter.
|
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
217
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 11:03:00 -
[260] - Quote
Guer wrote:CCP PvE design:
1. Put a single player ship against dozens of NPCs. 2. NPCs are stupid and and various tactics exist to exploit their weaknesses. Mission design and payouts balanced along these lines. 3. Unhappy that NPCs don't behave more like players, as if this was ever some kind of goal. 4. Make NPCs behave more like players. Explode drones, stronger ewar. 5. Don't adjust npc spawn numbers, don't adjust npc ewar chance, don't implement stacking penalties for ewar or webs. 6. Expect drone users to play the tank-dps-healer game without any aggro management tools. 7. Tell players to enjoy their more interesting gameplay. Pretty much this, the current state of PVE content wasn't really designed for "NPC's behave like players and have stronger EWAR" CCP need to take the time to go over all the PVE content and take note of what should be changed to keep it up to date with current changes. This isn't likely to happen however as PVE is considered a taboo in EVE, think of the rage posts if the was a PVE content patch. "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves." |
|
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
87
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 11:23:00 -
[261] - Quote
The way I see it. Is this is low sec all over again.
Wait let me explain.
I and alot of other people use to live in low sec and have fun. Now and for long time it's been mostly dead.
The scaning changes maid by CCP for wormholes killed low sec. 20mins to scan you out gives you time to do mission if your good. 30sec-5mins depending on skill of pilot scaning and ship/ships being used in mission. No time to do mission.
There for you got to get your friends together to lock down system to do freaking missions. Well I think we all know if you can pull that off in low sec your not going to have much problems in Null sec were it's better isk right.
Well now new AI changes are If you can pull it off in Null sec you can pull it off in wh so gtfo into wormholes same thing better isk.
See just like low sec.
Just differnt game changes. Net results are basicly the same.
So now we got if you can do it in low sec mite as well move to null sec to find out if you can do it in null sec mite as well just move to wh.
WTF! Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here. |
Mund Richard
274
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 11:25:00 -
[262] - Quote
Signal11th wrote:Hazen Koraka wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks, We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this. How's about Please getting that drone UI tweak so you know when your drones are targetted? Eve gate quoting ate my post! Re-edited. You do already, the ships that were red boxing you now yellow box you. When they do this they have changed to targeting your drones. Except when you have more than one person in fleet with you (you know, some people suggested when full stage agro and the rest was happening that L4s are fine should be done in fleet), had shouts going around on coms that all drones be recalled just to be safe and to avoid turning this into a whac-a-mole for both the rats and us and on the side explodifying our hoped profits.
Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
118
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 11:26:00 -
[263] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:This thread has been cleaned a little.
So what people are going to do now, is take a deep breath, step away from the keyboard and calm down.
Any further attacks made on CCP Employees and members of ISD will be dealt with to the full extent of the forum rules.
Be aware of this and think before you post.
NO offense was made by our behalf, seems that the statement that our trust is beggining to pass away is considered a threat and an attack on the ISD and DEV team. I am sorry for offending you with the truth. Without any offense against anyone, i feel like my feedback doesnt matter, here is a link that is appropriate for what was happening here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship
Your humble avarage costumer. |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
215
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 11:42:00 -
[264] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:i feel like my feedback doesnt matter
My guess it really doesn't, as long as you pay money.
I think the only thing will help here is some kind of mass unsub. In this case CCP might change something. Otherwise your feedback or opinion doesn't matter, just like mine. Whatever. |
Signal11th
Against ALL Anomalies
867
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 11:49:00 -
[265] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:Signal11th wrote:Hazen Koraka wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks,
We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this.
How's about Please getting that drone UI tweak so you know when your drones are targetted? Eve gate quoting ate my post! Re-edited. You do already, the ships that were red boxing you now yellow box you. When they do this they have changed to targeting your drones. Although it doesn't help - the moment they target your drone(s) it instantly dies 80% of the time.
How? I've lost one Garde 2 and one warrior 2 after ruuning probably 20 sites and a couple of escalations. Even the warrior could have been avoided because I was watching a film at the time.
To be honest though I do find the new AI a bit of a ballache as it all it really does is make my completion of sites take longer whilst not activiely making the experience anymore interesting or rewarding. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came second and won a toaster. |
Mund Richard
274
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 11:54:00 -
[266] - Quote
Signal11th wrote:Although it doesn't help - the moment they target your drone(s) it instantly dies 80% of the time. How? I've lost one Garde 2 and one warrior 2 after ruuning probably 20 sites and a couple of escalations. Even the warrior could have been avoided because I was watching a film at the time.[/quote] Full room switch, rat scram+web, it's not that hard to see that it can happen.
If you stop using mediums/heavies and rely only on small ones only after cleaning out the elite frigs/cruisers (or if they are in thight orbit), and sentries with your fingers on the recall drones hotkey, you have really good chances of not loosing any most of the time.
Great gameplay improvement. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Signal11th
Against ALL Anomalies
867
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 11:55:00 -
[267] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Signal11th wrote:Funky Lazers wrote:Although it doesn't help - the moment they target your drone(s) it instantly dies 80% of the time. How? I've lost one Garde 2 and one warrior 2 after ruuning probably 20 sites and a couple of escalations. Even the warrior could have been avoided because I was watching a film at the time. Full room switch, rat scram+web, it's not that hard to see that it can happen. If you stop using mediums/heavies and rely only on small ones only after cleaning out the elite frigs/cruisers (or if they are in thight orbit), and sentries with your fingers on the recall drones hotkey, you have really good chances of not loosing any most of the time. Great gameplay improvement.
Can you change the quote please because I didn't actually write that. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came second and won a toaster. |
Doddy
Dark-Rising
830
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 12:11:00 -
[268] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:dexington wrote:Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Onwards to WH space... W-space has similar AI, but you can trying doing lvl 2 missions in a T3 with officer fit, should be a suitable difficulty level. We already found a class 5 WH, were farming them in capitals and I assure you that with the new AI changes this is much more isk/hour efficient and personally i think its easier than a 10/10 ded plex since a triage archon outweights numerous logistics by its own. So basically were doing the same stuff as we need to do in 0.0 space exploration, the only difference that were making more money in less time. And this is WRONG. HIGHer RISK + HARDer CONTENT should be = MORE ISK since the AI update that is NOT TRUE. read the capital letters together.
Why would a 0.0 plex pay better than a class 5 WH?
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
118
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 12:16:00 -
[269] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:i feel like my feedback doesnt matter My guess it really doesn't, as long as you pay money. I think the only thing will help here is some kind of mass unsub. In this case CCP might change something. Otherwise your feedback or opinion doesn't matter, just like mine.
I think shooting some monument in jita and amarr with mass pilots would be sufficient like it was before, when Hellmar (ccp ceo) said sorry:
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2672 |
Sam Korak
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 12:20:00 -
[270] - Quote
I haven't done any lvl 4s yet with a Droneboat but I imagine you can do them easily with Sentries + 425s/Tachyons, so for the love of God. Stop whining guys. Really.
If you can't handle something it doesn't mean it's bad, it usually means you need to try harder.
Can someone PLEASE lock this thread? For me? Pretty please? |
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
118
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 12:20:00 -
[271] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:dexington wrote:Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Onwards to WH space... W-space has similar AI, but you can trying doing lvl 2 missions in a T3 with officer fit, should be a suitable difficulty level. We already found a class 5 WH, were farming them in capitals and I assure you that with the new AI changes this is much more isk/hour efficient and personally i think its easier than a 10/10 ded plex since a triage archon outweights numerous logistics by its own. So basically were doing the same stuff as we need to do in 0.0 space exploration, the only difference that were making more money in less time. And this is WRONG. HIGHer RISK + HARDer CONTENT should be = MORE ISK since the AI update that is NOT TRUE. read the capital letters together. Why would a 0.0 plex pay better than a class 5 WH?
It shouldnt pay more, but it SHOULD be easier. |
Signal11th
Against ALL Anomalies
867
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 12:21:00 -
[272] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Doddy wrote:Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:dexington wrote:Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Onwards to WH space... W-space has similar AI, but you can trying doing lvl 2 missions in a T3 with officer fit, should be a suitable difficulty level. We already found a class 5 WH, were farming them in capitals and I assure you that with the new AI changes this is much more isk/hour efficient and personally i think its easier than a 10/10 ded plex since a triage archon outweights numerous logistics by its own. So basically were doing the same stuff as we need to do in 0.0 space exploration, the only difference that were making more money in less time. And this is WRONG. HIGHer RISK + HARDer CONTENT should be = MORE ISK since the AI update that is NOT TRUE. read the capital letters together. Why would a 0.0 plex pay better than a class 5 WH? It shouldnt pay more, but it SHOULD be easier.
It is... I solo'ed one yesterday God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came second and won a toaster. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
118
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 12:26:00 -
[273] - Quote
i stop pyramid quoting, but i doubt you soloed a 8/10 or a 10/10 |
Duke Atreus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 12:31:00 -
[274] - Quote
Sam Korak wrote:I haven't done any lvl 4s yet with a Droneboat but I imagine you can do them easily with Sentries + 425s/Tachyons, so for the love of God. Stop whining guys. Really.
If you can't handle something it doesn't mean it's bad, it usually means you need to try harder.
Can someone PLEASE lock this thread? For me? Pretty please?
Sam Korak wrote:I haven't done any lvl 4s yet with a Droneboat but I imagine
Sam Korak wrote:I haven't done any lvl 4s yet with a Droneboat
Hi Sam Korak! Thanks for your opinion!
|
Sam Korak
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 12:34:00 -
[275] - Quote
Duke Atreus wrote: Hi Sam Korak! Thanks for your opinion!
My point is not being they aren't HARDER or shouldn't be EASIER or PAYOFF BETTER. My point is this thread had became flame-ish and stopped being relevant about 14 pages back.
If you criticize something, give feedback on how to fix it. Else you make a fool out of yourself. |
Duke Atreus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 12:37:00 -
[276] - Quote
Sam Korak wrote:Duke Atreus wrote: Hi Sam Korak! Thanks for your opinion!
My point is not being they aren't HARDER or shouldn't be EASIER or PAYOFF BETTER. My point is this thread had became flame-ish and stopped being relevant about 14 pages back. If you criticize something, give feedback on how to fix it. Else you make a fool out of yourself.
Some of us are also trying to keep this topic current (on the first page) so the devs can see it matters. There are quite a number of posts in here that go into detail about what is wrong at the moment and I fail to see the need to repost it over and over.
Cya man!
|
Sam Korak
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 12:53:00 -
[277] - Quote
Duke Atreus wrote: Some of us are also trying to keep this topic current (on the first page) so the devs can see it matters. There are quite a number of posts in here that go into detail about what is wrong at the moment and I fail to see the need to repost it over and over.
Cya man!
Still waiting on your suggestions on how can I see how awfuly flawed the new AI is. Because so far I find it much more interesting to play EVE than afk-playing before. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
966
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 13:04:00 -
[278] - Quote
Sam Korak wrote:Duke Atreus wrote: Some of us are also trying to keep this topic current (on the first page) so the devs can see it matters. There are quite a number of posts in here that go into detail about what is wrong at the moment and I fail to see the need to repost it over and over.
Cya man!
Still waiting on your suggestions on how can I see how awfuly flawed the new AI is. Because so far I find it much more interesting to play EVE than afk-playing before.
This appears to be a thread about how the NPC AI hurts drone boats. You say you don't use drone boats. You then say you are awaiting a suggestion on how you can see how awfully flawed the new AI is. I believe the suggestion would be to use a drone boat.
The only real change for solo non-drone boat users is the increased EWAR. If you find increased EWAR to be more interesting, so that you don't have to afk-play, then more power to you. To say though that there isn't a problem because it doesn't effect you at all, is a bit disingenuous.
|
Duke Atreus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 13:13:00 -
[279] - Quote
Sam Korak wrote:Duke Atreus wrote: Some of us are also trying to keep this topic current (on the first page) so the devs can see it matters. There are quite a number of posts in here that go into detail about what is wrong at the moment and I fail to see the need to repost it over and over.
Cya man!
Still waiting on your suggestions on how can I see how awfuly flawed the new AI is. Because so far I find it much more interesting to play EVE than afk-playing before.
Hello again Sam Korak! Please refer to my previous posts in the thread as well as many other peoples views on the matter. I don't particularly feel like going through the whole thread again and copy / paste all the information people have shared. Maybe if you have a spare 20 minutes or so (longer than when you started here!) you can peruse at your own leisure.
Take care now. |
Signal11th
Against ALL Anomalies
867
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 13:16:00 -
[280] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:i stop pyramid quoting, but i doubt you soloed a 8/10 or a 10/10
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Dread_Guristas_Fleet_Staging_Post
That's what I solo'ed yesterday, don't know if its a 8 or 10 but there was a torp that keep hitting me for 10k every 25 seconds. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came second and won a toaster. |
|
Mund Richard
274
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 13:21:00 -
[281] - Quote
Signal11th wrote:Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:i stop pyramid quoting, but i doubt you soloed a 8/10 or a 10/10 http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Dread_Guristas_Fleet_Staging_Post That's what I solo'ed yesterday, don't know if its a 8 or 10 but there was a torp that keep hitting me for 10k every 25 seconds. Was going to ask which one out of curiosity, now I'm sure that someone will come along, and say do X in a Y ship and then come back.. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Signal11th
Against ALL Anomalies
867
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 13:26:00 -
[282] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Signal11th wrote:Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:i stop pyramid quoting, but i doubt you soloed a 8/10 or a 10/10 http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Dread_Guristas_Fleet_Staging_Post That's what I solo'ed yesterday, don't know if its a 8 or 10 but there was a torp that keep hitting me for 10k every 25 seconds. Was going to ask which one out of curiosity, now I'm sure that someone will come along, and say do X in a Y ship and then come back.. My money is on blood raider in a gunship.
Don't get me wrong I don't like the new AI at all! It just takes longer with no more reward or content for the extra stress but it's no game breaker I can still do what I was doing before I just have to actually watch the screen now instead of watching a film. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came second and won a toaster. |
Sam Korak
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 13:40:00 -
[283] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:I believe the suggestion would be to use a drone boat.
Actually I used drone boats on Lv1s, 2s and 3s. And I can't say it's impossible harder. It is a bit harder, in a way that requires you to actually stop being AFK.
My point is, I don't believe Lv4s are so game changing in the way you can't do them anymore in a Droneboat.
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
118
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 13:41:00 -
[284] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:Sam Korak wrote:Duke Atreus wrote: Some of us are also trying to keep this topic current (on the first page) so the devs can see it matters. There are quite a number of posts in here that go into detail about what is wrong at the moment and I fail to see the need to repost it over and over.
Cya man!
Still waiting on your suggestions on how can I see how awfuly flawed the new AI is. Because so far I find it much more interesting to play EVE than afk-playing before. This appears to be a thread about how the NPC AI hurts drone boats. You say you don't use drone boats. You then say you are awaiting a suggestion on how you can see how awfully flawed the new AI is. I believe the suggestion would be to use a drone boat. The only real change for solo non-drone boat users is the increased EWAR. If you find increased EWAR to be more interesting, so that you don't have to afk-play, then more power to you. To say though that there isn't a problem because it doesn't effect you at all, is a bit disingenuous.
Youre right, but dont be mistaken about only drone boats, this topic is about how new npc ai hurts in many a way. It is destroying the pve experience this game offers for years, if someone dont like the way it was then he should go and pvp, if you dont like pvp then this game isnt for you.
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
118
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 13:43:00 -
[285] - Quote
DED rating Unrated
that is an unrated not ded plex. its easier by far from any ded plex.
ps. sorry for double posting |
Mund Richard
274
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 13:48:00 -
[286] - Quote
Sam Korak wrote: Actually I used drone boats on Lv1s, 2s and 3s. And I can't say it's impossible harder. It is a bit harder, in a way that requires you to actually stop being AFK. After the size-enforced nerf, I did L3s AFK in a passive Myrm launching lights instead of mediums after making sure that there was no elite rat on grid when I warped in.
Doesn't mean much for L4s and nullsec PvE/PvP.
And yes, I just admitted that unlike L4s, L3s I do AFK sometimes (well, not quite, I was chatting in EVE while watching TV). Then again, did some more in a Drake and lights, was about the same interaction required. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Larloch TheAncient
Alpha Arms and Manufacturing What Alliance
37
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 14:06:00 -
[287] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:DED rating Unrated that is an unrated not ded plex. its easier by far from any ded plex. ps. sorry for double posting
Well I HAVE solo'd 6/10, 8/10, and the nonrated ones after path, against SANSHA of all the races. Its far from impossible.
(Can't run the 10/10 sites because I don't have leadership V) |
Mund Richard
274
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 14:11:00 -
[288] - Quote
Larloch TheAncient wrote:Mund Richard wrote:You CHOSE to live in a TD space, CHOOSE to go into WH space, I didn't choose to have my drones repeatedly aimed at, when I started training a Gallente toon a year ago. I should go into WH space, sounds more and more fun, and rewarding. You chose to use the drones in the new missions, you chose to send them 20+KM from your ship repeatedly. You also chose to run missions solo ensuring that your drones are the only ones on field.
How is knowing what you are going against in WH space (and preparing for it) similar to rolling a toon day 1 with how things were back then, and then having the playfield totally change suddenly?
And yes, after the change I don't send out my drones more than 15 km I don't even put medium/heavy drones in my bay (unless ECM) I use mainly sentries I use more toons, so that the other battleship gets attacked instead of drones
In all honesty, if I look at what you said as advice, it's quite valuable. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Marillio
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
3
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 14:13:00 -
[289] - Quote
EVE is full of emotions
if you train for a sport, which you do ten years and your trainer is changing the tactic and you are not able to do the sport anymore, then there are emotions. EVE Online is a hobby, not like playing soccer or something, its unique. Then you receive a patch and something, what you have done for years, is gone.
In RL I sell business software f++r financials. And people pay money for it every day. If you change the usability of the financial program, and people are not able to use it anymore or with heavy differences, they get reallly angry and buy another software, even if this has another usability.
Of course, people want entertainment and CCP is doing a great job of entertaining us with lots of features and nice developments. Everything is so big, that you need find new solutions and ways to be successfull.
It took me a few month to get into the scanning and a few years till i found out, what probing is all about in detail. It took a year, until i finished most of the complexs successfully and found a setup for it. It was fun for more then 6 years, but the changes now makes it very difficult to find out, what to do and i ask myself, why? Who wasnt happy with it or bored?
My main problem is not the drone change or the missile nerve or the EWAR, it is the aggression change, which needs a tank on every ship, and I am running out of moduleslots, because how can you tank a complex (I think, you need at least 4 modules for an actice shield tank) and a microwarp and codebreaker, analyzer. There is no ship with 7 medslots, where you find enough cpu for a probe launcher, remote tank, salvager and a tractor beam.
So I must decide now, what I dont want to do. If I stop salvaging, I am loosing 40% of the isks, I do in complex, if i stop repping the damagedealer, i have to fit an active tank on my damage dealer, which gets cap problems, so I need to get rid of the damage mods, which isnt then a damagedealer anymore, so it takes a lot longer to kill the targets.
If you are in a hurry and go plexing in hostile regions, every minute counts. So if you stay too long in a plex, you will loose it to another prober. OK, now you have an active tank and can use it for pew pew, but where to fit the point?
So a little change of the npc AI switching agro means a complete change of the gameplay, which has been the same since the beginning. Maybe it was a mistake to change it so massive, rather then one year ago the drone damage, another year ago the agroswitching, another year ago the ewar. Altogether its like a new player experience and as i said in the beginning, if you take something, people get emotional. Or in my case, its just not interesting anymore. I can just go to jita and offer a few scams, which is way easier money then flying 16 hours around to run difficult complexs.
As CCP only takes and never gives it back again, I think, they will not give it back. Which is OK, so the only way is to launch new mods or ships to get the PVE running again. I dont think, its running that good, because 100% of my corp stopped npcing (Level 5 Missions, Complex). We all have enough money to play a few years, so others will come in place and find new solutions, but it is a very strange feeling to just run the client and spin ships instead of having brutal fun all day.
Some Dev said in this threat, they wanna make it more like a challange, I dont understand, why they change something, which was already a dam nice challange.
Sorry for my bad english, but I try my best. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
118
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 14:20:00 -
[290] - Quote
Frankly, i dont believe that. 8/10 needs at least 1000 tank and near 1600 dps, a single ship unless its full x type or officer fitted is not capable of that. If youre refferring to that bug, that if you move out 160km+ from the structure at the end at it will stop repairing than i have good news for you: You just exploited a bad game mechanic. as for a 6/10, it is possible to solo it with an overtanked ship with little to none dps, you still need a lot of faction modules on that ship and it will be a hell of a long run (couple of hours) but ITIS POSSIBLE. Tough i wouldnt call it clever. And for a 10/10, well that you simply cant solo, because of the overpowering last room with its 50,000 dmg torpedo + full pocket agro.
|
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1135
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 14:28:00 -
[291] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:DED rating Unrated that is an unrated not ded plex. its easier by far from any ded plex. ps. sorry for double posting
This is untrue not. Fleet Staging point start out as an unrated plex. It' is now the 9/10 DED plex. CCP made it that way to avoid putting a real 9/10 in.
All Fleet Staging Points tell you in the description they are "DED 9/10s" . You get the description as a pop up when you warp to the 1st grate of Fleet Staging Point 1.
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
118
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 14:33:00 -
[292] - Quote
"My main problem is not the drone change or the missile nerve or the EWAR, it is the aggression change, which needs a tank on every ship"
This is it. This is my biggest PERSONNAL problem, but the topic talks for itself with all these different people posting about their dislike, and god knows how many more are out there that simply dont know about this topic. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1135
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 14:39:00 -
[293] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Frankly, i dont believe that. 8/10 needs at least 1000 tank and near 1600 dps, a single ship unless its full x type or officer fitted is not capable of that. If youre refferring to that bug, that if you move out 160km+ from the structure at the end at it will stop repairing than i have good news for you: You just exploited a bad game mechanic. as for a 6/10, it is possible to solo it with an overtanked ship with little to none dps, you still need a lot of faction modules on that ship and it will be a hell of a long run (couple of hours) but ITIS POSSIBLE. Tough i wouldnt call it clever. And for a 10/10, well that you simply cant solo, because of the overpowering last room with its 50,000 dmg torpedo + full pocket agro.
You must not do null sec exploration, The Guristas 10/10 (the MAZE), the Angel 10/10 (Angel Cartel Naval Shipyard) The Sansha 10/10 (Centus assembly) and the Serpentis 10/10 (Serpentis Fleet Shipyard) are now and have always been solo'able. I only use two or more ships in those plexes for speed's sake. There was no bug, the torps always worked as they were supposed to.
Even before the Tengu, you could solo in drakes and night hawks. Live personally solo'd every 10/10 except the sansha, Blood raider and drone ones. I watched a corp mate solo the sansha Centus Assembly with a dual rep abaddon.
Blood Raider and Drone 10/10s are the ones you can't "solo" and solo is never the OPTIMAL way to do them. But saying you can solo a 10/10 (or omg 8/10, ALL 8/10s are soloable) just demonstrates inexperience.
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
118
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 14:52:00 -
[294] - Quote
I wont argue with you, i believe this is not true. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1135
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 15:32:00 -
[295] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:I wont argue with you, i believe this is not true.
Based on what? I'm not looking for an argument either, I'm explaining to you a fact. A fact I've verified personally before and after the npc AI change. Have you ever even tried to solo one of the 4 10/10s (or any of the 8/10s) I've described?
You are free to ignore facts you dislike, it's just not very smart and makes everything else you say less credible.
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
118
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 16:07:00 -
[296] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:I wont argue with you, i believe this is not true. Based on what? I'm not looking for an argument either, I'm explaining to you a fact. A fact I've verified personally before and after the npc AI change. Have you ever even tried to solo one of the 4 10/10s (or any of the 8/10s) I've described? You are free to ignore facts you dislike, it's just not very smart and makes everything else you say less credible.
I will verify it then, did you tank all the ships you brought to the 10/10 to the limit where it can tank the full pocket or you simply finished the 5 rooms with a single ships? Can you link the fit of that ships please? |
Texty
State War Academy Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 16:30:00 -
[297] - Quote
I don't think it really matters if lvl 4s, complexes, whatever are doable or not. The AI change was supposed to bring more excitement to EVE PvE, and It didn't. I admit I have seen a few posts so far that said since the AI change, their PvEing had become more enjoyable, but the majority of the community doesn't seem to think so.
For me, it has just added more annoyance, not excitement. I can't really tell how the AI currently works. Sometimes the elite frig/cruisers just ignore my light drones, no matter how long I have them out, but sometimes they seem to really hate drones and tries to kill them at all costs.
At first I thought the NPC behavior was defined mission specifically, but is it, actually, as I am beginning to have the impression, just plain random? I'm not sure. I'm not noting down each rat behavior I encounter per mission, so this is just how it seems to me at the moment.
If the NPC behavior is really just random across the board, and CCP hopes their customers will be entertained that way, I must say it is rather lazy of them. What kind of "AI" is that anyway. Please redesign all sites and give each and every site unique NPC behavior. One that would even encourage players to move around EVE universe just to encounter different missions/sites to tackle. It will probably involve a lot of work, but even if it is so, that doesn't allow you to just randomize some stuff and be done with it.
"Adapting" to this change that some people seem to promote is pretty pointless. You must adapt to intentional changes/nerfs for sure, but you don't have to adapt to new excitements. You just have fun and enjoy it and get used to it. Since a lot of people are not enjoying it at all, and are having to "adapt" to this new feature, it is quite clear that the new AI has failed in its attempt to add excitement, thus I agree with the "no" in regard to OP. I know there are conspiracy theories about the real intentions of this AI change but I'll stay away from that. |
Signal11th
Against ALL Anomalies
867
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 16:34:00 -
[298] - Quote
Texty wrote:I don't think it really matters if lvl 4s, complexes, whatever are doable or not. The AI change was supposed to bring more excitement to EVE PvE, and It didn't. I admit I have seen a few posts so far that said since the AI change, their PvEing had become more enjoyable, but the majority of the community doesn't seem to think so.
For me, it has just added more annoyance, not excitement. I can't really tell how the AI currently works. Sometimes the elite frig/cruisers just ignore my light drones, no matter how long I have them out, but sometimes they seem to really hate drones and tries to kill them at all costs.
At first I thought the NPC behavior was defined mission specifically, but is it, actually, as I am beginning to have the impression, just plain random? I'm not sure. I'm not noting down each rat behavior I encounter per mission, so this is just how it seems to me at the moment.
If the NPC behavior is really just random across the board, and CCP hopes their customers will be entertained that way, I must say it is rather lazy of them. What kind of "AI" is that anyway. Please redesign all sites and give each and every site unique NPC behavior. One that would even encourage players to move around EVE universe just to encounter different missions/sites to tackle. It will probably involve a lot of work, but even if it is so, that doesn't allow you to just randomize some stuff and be done with it.
"Adapting" to this change that some people seem to promote is pretty pointless. You must adapt to intentional changes/nerfs for sure, but you don't have to adapt to new excitements. You just have fun and enjoy it and get used to it. Since a lot of people are not enjoying it at all, and are having to "adapt" to this new feature, it is quite clear that the new AI has failed in its attempt to add excitement, thus I agree with the "no" in regard to OP. I know there are conspiracy theories about the real intentions of this AI change but I'll stay away from that.
You're pretty much spot but i will add extra:
AI change doesn't bring excitement it brings exasperation and yet more time wasted.
NEW CONTENT brings excitement.....take a hint CCP God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came second and won a toaster. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1136
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 16:40:00 -
[299] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:I wont argue with you, i believe this is not true. Based on what? I'm not looking for an argument either, I'm explaining to you a fact. A fact I've verified personally before and after the npc AI change. Have you ever even tried to solo one of the 4 10/10s (or any of the 8/10s) I've described? You are free to ignore facts you dislike, it's just not very smart and makes everything else you say less credible. I will verify it then, did you tank all the ships you brought to the 10/10 to the limit where it can tank the full pocket or you simply finished the 5 rooms with a single ships? Can you link the fit of that ships please?
Each one is different.
Take the MAZE for example.
Used a Tengu with 6 HML in the highs, 3 Caldari navy Ballistic Controls and 1 Damage Control in the lows, deadspace medium shield booster (the toon I use for exploration and 10/10 plexes has a crystal implant set) and deadspace hardeners + afterburner in the mids + 2 tech CCC rigs and 1 Tech1 CCC rig. i'll link the exact fit later when I'm closer to home. I also use X-instinct boosters to lower my signature radius (which helps against all the battleships.
Before the last expansion, 2 of the hardeners we EM, now all you have to do to tank the MAZE is tank for Kin/Therm period.
1st 4 rooms of the maze, kill only scramming frigs and ignore the rest, then go through the proper gate (gates are not locked which is why you only need to kill scramming frigs).
Last room, warp in, orbit beacon you land on with afterburner on, kill web towers and any frig web/scramming you, kill guns, then cruisers (leave battleships), shoot station for 1st battleship spawn (ignore those BS as well), keep shooting station till next spawn, kill frigs and cruisers, rinse repeat till station is dead, afterburner to loot (still ignoring all the BS that can't do much damage to you. Scoop loot, warp out. Win.
Angel 10/10 is trickier because of target painting, but almost as east. Serp10/10 is laughable but structure is a ***** to kill even at range.
It's not hard, just time consuming. Some DED plexes are ridiculously easy now, like Serp, Angel, Blood Raider and Guristas Fleet Staging Point 3 can be "tanked" with a passive tank drake (whatever you bring for dps will take ship aggro, but you can hold torp + neut battery + gun aggro with the drake).
Now, Blood Raider Shipyard (the blood 10/10) is a whole 'nother beast, but I've been able to beat it with remote repping battleships. No solo ship in EVE can beat the BR 10/10 imo. I've tried it with tech3 passive shield tanked high em Lokis that breeze through lvl5 missions and it just doesn't work.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1137
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 16:50:00 -
[300] - Quote
Texty wrote:I don't think it really matters if lvl 4s, complexes, whatever are doable or not. The AI change was supposed to bring more excitement to EVE PvE, and It didn't. I admit I have seen a few posts so far that said since the AI change, their PvEing had become more enjoyable, but the majority of the community doesn't seem to think so.
For me, it has just added more annoyance, not excitement. I can't really tell how the AI currently works. Sometimes the elite frig/cruisers just ignore my light drones, no matter how long I have them out, but sometimes they seem to really hate drones and tries to kill them at all costs.
At first I thought the NPC behavior was defined mission specifically, but is it, actually, as I am beginning to have the impression, just plain random? I'm not sure. I'm not noting down each rat behavior I encounter per mission, so this is just how it seems to me at the moment.
If the NPC behavior is really just random across the board, and CCP hopes their customers will be entertained that way, I must say it is rather lazy of them. What kind of "AI" is that anyway. Please redesign all sites and give each and every site unique NPC behavior. One that would even encourage players to move around EVE universe just to encounter different missions/sites to tackle. It will probably involve a lot of work, but even if it is so, that doesn't allow you to just randomize some stuff and be done with it.
"Adapting" to this change that some people seem to promote is pretty pointless. You must adapt to intentional changes/nerfs for sure, but you don't have to adapt to new excitements. You just have fun and enjoy it and get used to it. Since a lot of people are not enjoying it at all, and are having to "adapt" to this new feature, it is quite clear that the new AI has failed in its attempt to add excitement, thus I agree with the "no" in regard to OP. I know there are conspiracy theories about the real intentions of this AI change but I'll stay away from that.
If you go back and look over the history of this change you will see that I was and still am one of the most outspoken opponents of the change. I think is was a backwards way of going at thing. Wormholes and Incursions (built from the ground up to work with the new AIs) was the way to get, slapping new AI onto old mission and complex content was just dumb and lazy IMO.
i've always said that "just because you can adapt to a change doesn't make the change a good and proper thing". I also said this change will do nothing to increase enjoyment of pve content, and i believe honestly that I was right on all those counts.
That being said, I also believe that nothing much is going to change. This NPC AI is here to stay, the best we can hope for is that CCP will tweak some missions and complexes to fit with the new AI better and make things less tedious.
What's happened with me is that the AI change made things WAY easier in some ways and slightly harder in others. I used to not use drones in null sec anomalies because new spawns would sometimes target them and pulling them and and putting them back out was a pain. Now all i do is put out the drones and start up some EWAR on my machariel and most times my medium drones never take aggro. I lose an average of 2 drones per week doing Havens and Forsaken or forlorn hubs in null sec.
Like I said, i think the change was handled badly, but there is no choice but to adapt and ask for positive progress. Most of us in the PVe community have adapted to these changes, some of us have found new ways to exploit them lol.
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Mund Richard
275
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 16:59:00 -
[301] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:If you go back and look over the history of this change you will see that I was and still am one of the most outspoken opponents of the change. I think is was a backwards way of going at things. Wormholes and Incursions (built from the ground up to work with the new AIs) was the way to go, slapping new AI onto old mission and complex content was just dumb and lazy IMO.
I've always said that "just because you can adapt to a change doesn't make the change a good and proper thing". I also said this change will do nothing to increase enjoyment of pve content, and i believe honestly that I was right on all those counts.
That being said, I also believe that nothing much is going to change. This NPC AI is here to stay, the best we can hope for is that CCP will tweak some missions and complexes to fit with the new AI better and make things less tedious.
Like I said, i think the change was handled badly, but there is no choice but to adapt and ask for positive progress. Most of us in the PVe community have adapted to these changes, some of us have found new ways to exploit them lol. Not empty quoting, I was there and also said this. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
63
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 19:02:00 -
[302] - Quote
Quote:That being said, I also believe that nothing much is going to change. This NPC AI is here to stay, the best we can hope for is that CCP will tweak some missions and complexes to fit with the new AI better and make things less tedious. Actually, the best we could hope for is that they make two specific tweaks: (1) drones no longer auto-attack under any circumstances, meaning you have to target and use "F" to make them shoot anything; and (2) the "new NPC AI" remains the same in every way, except that NPCs do not shoot drones, ever.
These two changes would completely address CCP's desire to have PvE be "hands on" for drone boats, and would solve all the complaints from drone boat users about the new AI butchering their drones and ISK/hr. They're also simple changes, which would most likely have the side effect of removing forever a big chunk of broken and wonky "drone AI" code that has been a source of ongoing complaints for years. And they're sensible changes in that they put drones on exactly the same footing as all other weapon systems in terms of how much activity is needed to "manage" them.
If they took this chance to also fix "focus fire" once and for all, and to make drones simply shoot at what you tell them to shoot at, and keep shooting at that thing until it's dead, then so much the better. |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
374
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 06:15:00 -
[303] - Quote
Freighdee Katt wrote:Actually, the best we could hope for is that they make two specific tweaks: (1) drones no longer auto-attack under any circumstances, meaning you have to target and use "F" to make them shoot anything; and (2) the "new NPC AI" remains the same in every way, except that NPCs do not shoot drones, ever. *snip* Apparently people still believe that this change was an answer to "AFK whatever" rather than was made for the sake of it. Please, don't come up with suggestions that are intended to fix PvE, but directly affect more than PvE even in theory. |
dexington
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
539
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 07:38:00 -
[304] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Apparently people still believe that this change was an answer to "AFK whatever" rather than was made for the sake of it. The original dev blog did say " ... to try and close some exploits ... ", which very well could have to do with afk mission running. Apparently now the official reason is that they want to make pve more like pvp, it's probably going to be something else next week.
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Please, don't come up with suggestions that are intended to fix PvE, but directly affect more than PvE even in theory. If drones don't automatically target npc's, the change has very small impact on pvp. GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥ |
Hazen Koraka
HK Enterprises
168
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 08:32:00 -
[305] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:Signal11th wrote:Hazen Koraka wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks,
We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this.
How's about Please getting that drone UI tweak so you know when your drones are targetted? Eve gate quoting ate my post! Re-edited. You do already, the ships that were red boxing you now yellow box you. When they do this they have changed to targeting your drones. Although it doesn't help - the moment they target your drone(s) it instantly dies 80% of the time.
This makes no sense, how fast do they target drones? Surely npcs are subject to the same sensor rules for lock-on time as players? Exploration is Random. Random is Random... or is it?! http://docs.python.org/2/library/random.html |
dexington
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
539
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 09:01:00 -
[306] - Quote
Hazen Koraka wrote:This makes no sense, how fast do they target drones? Surely npcs are subject to the same sensor rules for lock-on time as players?
Light drones have a signature radius of around 25m, and eg. sansha elite frigs have around 900 scan resolution, which give them a lock time close to 3 sec.
I don't know how drone mwd's work, but if it's the same rules as for players elite frigs would have 1 sec lock time when drones are using mwd's. GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥ |
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
141
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 09:21:00 -
[307] - Quote
Freighdee Katt wrote:If they took this chance to also fix "focus fire" once and for all, and to make drones simply shoot at what you tell them to shoot at, and keep shooting at that thing until it's dead, then so much the better. Dude, my drones already do that. Your drones must not like you.
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
1453
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Posted - 2013.01.15 10:55:00 -
[308] - Quote
Hey folks, here is an update on our earlier post.
NPC Tracking disruptor update:
After looking at this thread feedback this issue has been reopened internally (we thought it fixed a few weeks back). No promises on a resolution yet but we are currently looking into this.
A bit of further explanation on our previous post as well, since there has been quite some conversation about it:
EVE PvE systems, mainly mission running, are terribly outdated and are due for a change. Exactly how and when is not something we can state on the paper, but we had having several internal discussions on how this could be done.
One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter. NPC bounties could be merged, or moved on progressive secondary objectives that require more and more skill from the player to achieve, while possibly having more risk. For instance, saving the Damsel could pay less or the same than it does today, but you could get extra rewards for completing special, more difficult objectives like rescuing her in a specific period of time, or blowing the evil Zor up before he runs away with her sister in his ship cargohold. Keep in mind this remain just an theoretical idea though that is most likely going to change if and when we start work on this particular point.
Reducing NPC numbers also allows us to better scale EW player faces on a regular basis (mainly, we are referring to missions like the Blockade here). Assigning strong EW effects to few NPCs is fine, but it becomes horribly frustrating when faced with 5 full waves of NPCs sensor dampening you, as there is little the player can do to counter it. We should be relying on gameplay players can overcome if they are smart instead of brute force mechanics.
Why are we considering changing PvE like this? That is because we are running missions and PvE content ourselves, and we are not particularly fond of the stale state PvE is in EVE Online right now, except for the most recent content (Incursions and Wormholes). Missions and exploration should let players gamble with risk if they feel up to it. While people looking for quick and relaxing content should still be able to do so, we also want players to find excitement from accomplishing missions and feel great about it. You should not be forced to shoot the same dull and repetitive encounters if you donGÇÖt feel up to it. It is a tricky thing to achieve though, as it does not mean we want you to lose ships every mission either.
This would also be done to put mission runners more on an equal footing with hostile players when moving into hazardous space. People accomplishing missions in low-security or null-security space should not be at a disadvantage when engaged by other players because they have ship fittings tailored to fight NPCs. Ideally, battling NPCs should teach players how PvP works, how to defend and be better prepared about it should they choose to move into dangerous areas.
We often hear "EVE is a PvP game, PvE is secondary". To this we would like to respond that EVE is a sandbox and shouldnGÇÖt necessarily favor one side over the other. What you do with it is up to you: all player activities should feel as appealing and rewarding no matter which choice you take, as long as you are willing to live up with the consequences of your actions.
You are murdering our drone ships!
We are aware of the recent changes brought by the NPC AI. As said in our previous post, the first NPC behavior deployed for Retribution was too extreme and has been corrected. However, we are aware that drone ships are receiving the short end of the stick here and have been ignored for quite a bit.
This is especially valid since as the tiericide initiative continues, we are adding more drone hulls, but not looking at the drone mechanics themselves, which do need much love. Again, while we are not in a position to state how or when such revamp will happen, this definitely is on our to-do list not only to rebalance drones in general, but also update their behavior, improve their handling through the UI and finally add more combat options for players choosing to specialize in such gameplay. The need for such drone rebalance will only grow with time as we keep on rebalancing ships, so we do hope this can be done as soon as humanly possible.
Oops, now I've written a wall of text Well anyway, we hope this do help a bit. |
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Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
118
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 11:01:00 -
[309] - Quote
holding this for an answer |
Sofia Wolf
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
92
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 11:15:00 -
[310] - Quote
Awesome to hear that Ytterbium. However I have a request. It is my long pet peeve that loot drops usually have very little to do with what NPC rats were using against me, so when you get to do missions and rats overhaul please consider adjusting loot drop tables so that rats drop modules that they actually use, not some extraneous nonsense. |
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Duke Atreus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2013.01.15 11:18:00 -
[311] - Quote
Thanks CCP Yttcerbium.
TBH NPC AI shouldn't have been implemented until you revamped the PVE system seeing how the EWAR was too rampart with the number of ships and how drone users got the short end of the stick but I am glad you know there are still issues and are working on them.
Obviously it seems it might be a while yet before we see changes which is understandable so how about you revert it till then *wink wink* :P
Take care. |
Mund Richard
277
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 11:41:00 -
[312] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:EVE PvE systems, mainly mission running, are terribly outdated and are due for a change. Exactly how and when is not something we can state on the paper, but we had having several internal discussions on how this could be done.
One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter. NPC bounties could be merged, or moved on progressive secondary objectives that require more and more skill from the player to achieve, while possibly having more risk. For instance, saving the Damsel could pay less or the same than it does today, but you could get extra rewards for completing special, more difficult objectives like rescuing her in a specific period of time, or blowing the evil Zor up before he runs away with her sister in his ship cargohold. Keep in mind this remain just an theoretical idea though that is most likely going to change if and when we start work on this particular point.
Reducing NPC numbers also allows us to better scale EW player faces on a regular basis (mainly, we are referring to missions like the Blockade here). Hello and thank you for the post.
Awesome plans, only one question: why the cart before the horse? Why first the more agressive AI with the zomfg numbers of rats, and only sometime later the reduced rat number and scaled payment, wouldn't it have been a LOT better to do the two the same, design the whole thing from bottom-up like as you have with WH/Incursion, instead of putting the AI from there on top?
Yes, it's a trick, I pretend it to be a question. Apologies for that. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Mund Richard
277
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 11:44:00 -
[313] - Quote
dexington wrote:Barrogh Habalu wrote:Please, don't come up with suggestions that are intended to fix PvE, but directly affect more than PvE even in theory. If drones don't automatically target npc's, the change has very small impact on pvp. It has a deliscious side-effect on "PvP", as in when a SB de-cloaks next to you in a plex/site to blow you up with the help of rats (since it couldn't do it alone)... He has point + web + TP on you, and we know how much the new AI loves those!
I imagine the tears I harvested in local were about as delicious, as some found those of carebears. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Signal11th
Against ALL Anomalies
869
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 11:45:00 -
[314] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, here is an update on our earlier post. NPC Tracking disruptor update:After looking at this thread feedback this issue has been reopened internally (we thought it fixed a few weeks back). No promises on a resolution yet but we are currently looking into this. A bit of further explanation on our previous post as well, since there has been quite some conversation about it:EVE PvE systems, mainly mission running, are terribly outdated and are due for a change. Exactly how and when is not something we can state on the paper, but we had having several internal discussions on how this could be done. One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter. NPC bounties could be merged, or moved on progressive secondary objectives that require more and more skill from the player to achieve, while possibly having more risk. For instance, saving the Damsel could pay less or the same than it does today, but you could get extra rewards for completing special, more difficult objectives like rescuing her in a specific period of time, or blowing the evil Zor up before he runs away with her sister in his ship cargohold. Keep in mind this remain just an theoretical idea though that is most likely going to change if and when we start work on this particular point. Reducing NPC numbers also allows us to better scale EW player faces on a regular basis (mainly, we are referring to missions like the Blockade here). Assigning strong EW effects to few NPCs is fine, but it becomes horribly frustrating when faced with 5 full waves of NPCs sensor dampening you, as there is little the player can do to counter it. We should be relying on gameplay players can overcome if they are smart instead of brute force mechanics. Why are we considering changing PvE like this? That is because we are running missions and PvE content ourselves, and we are not particularly fond of the stale state PvE is in EVE Online right now, except for the most recent content (Incursions and Wormholes). Missions and exploration should let players gamble with risk if they feel up to it. While people looking for quick and relaxing content should still be able to do so, we also want players to find excitement from accomplishing missions and feel great about it. You should not be forced to shoot the same dull and repetitive encounters if you donGÇÖt feel up to it. It is a tricky thing to achieve though, as it does not mean we want you to lose ships every mission either. This would also be done to put mission runners more on an equal footing with hostile players when moving into hazardous space. People accomplishing missions in low-security or null-security space should not be at a disadvantage when engaged by other players because they have ship fittings tailored to fight NPCs. Ideally, battling NPCs should teach players how PvP works, how to defend and be better prepared about it should they choose to move into dangerous areas. We often hear "EVE is a PvP game, PvE is secondary". To this we would like to respond that EVE is a sandbox and shouldnGÇÖt necessarily favor one side over the other. What you do with it is up to you: all player activities should feel as appealing and rewarding no matter which choice you take, as long as you are willing to live up with the consequences of your actions. You are murdering our drone ships!We are aware of the recent changes brought by the NPC AI. As said in our previous post, the first NPC behavior deployed for Retribution was too extreme and has been corrected. However, we are aware that drone ships are receiving the short end of the stick here and have been ignored for quite a bit. This is especially valid since as the tiericide initiative continues, we are adding more drone hulls, but not looking at the drone mechanics themselves, which do need much love. Again, while we are not in a position to state how or when such revamp will happen, this definitely is on our to-do list not only to rebalance drones in general, but also update their behavior, improve their handling through the UI and finally add more combat options for players choosing to specialize in such gameplay. The need for such drone rebalance will only grow with time as we keep on rebalancing ships, so we do hope this can be done as soon as humanly possible. Oops, now I've written a wall of text Well anyway, we hope this do help a bit.
It's great you have actually take the time to write the above wall O' Text but the TL:DR basically is we realise we have made ****-ups by forcing this on you (apparently without testing properly) but we are not in such a rush as to fix it for you.
Personally I don't really give a monkies how easy or hard it is to kill a NPC ship but I'm more interested in the mission story and content, thats what makes it interesting not how hard/easy it is to kill something.
The problem people complain is that you have a static amount of missions you basically boil down to shoot everything and retrieve the final can/woman/slave/scientist/transsexual cyborg etc. There is no randomness in the missions, everything is static How about something like purely random ship spawns, that way nobody can do the mission to the 'nth degree and then write a post about it telling everyone how to completely afk it.
How about a random spawn by a friendly to the NPC faction to come and help them out. As I've said many times before it's not the way we do missions/site/plexes that it boring it's the actual content of these missions. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came second and won a toaster. |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
218
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 12:00:00 -
[315] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter. and
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Ideally, battling NPCs should teach players how PvP works
Please tell me one thing. Why do you want to teach a player how to PvP, when that Player chose to PvE?
I lived in Null for 4 years. I did all of that null stuff with a huge successful alliance. I know well how EvE's PvP works. So after those 4 years I found out I don't like PvP the way it is. I decided to do missions and other PvE things and liked it!
So please tell me, why do you want me to experience the same thing I did in null? I chose PvE exactly because it doesn't look like PvP and the experience is very different. Yes, a little boring, but not because it misses PvP aspect.
I'll say it again in a rephrased way: Why do you want to teach (force to experience) someone how to eat oranges when that someone likes apples? Whatever. |
Mund Richard
277
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 12:07:00 -
[316] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:I'll say it again in a rephrased way: Why do you want to teach (force to experience) someone how to eat oranges when that someone likes apples? Or, why not let a bloke coming home from a 12 hour shift, too frustrated to sleep, have a bit of non-frustrating Red Plus hunting?
I like pies! Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1141
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 13:45:00 -
[317] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:
Awesome plans, only one question: why the cart before the horse? Why first the more agressive AI with the zomfg numbers of rats, and only sometime later the reduced rat number and scaled payment, wouldn't it have been a LOT better to do the two the same, design the whole thing from bottom-up like as you have with WH/Incursion, instead of putting the AI from there on top?
Yes, it's a trick, I pretend it to be a question. Apologies for that.
lol, I know. That's the drum we've both been beating from day one and i doubt we'll ever get an answer. WHY did the new AI have to happen 1st?
It hasn't been a terrible huge ordeal for me in fact it's made things easier for me in many aspects (I actually use drones now since I know how to keep aggro mostly off them and don't have to pull them in all the time in Anomalies).
it's just the way they went about it that sucks and caused all this commotion. CCP does some brilliant stuff (incursions and Wormholes) then puts out something that even rookie game makers should know was premature (NPC AI retrofitted over old mission and complex content). it has been frustrating to watch.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1141
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Posted - 2013.01.15 13:55:00 -
[318] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, here is an update on our earlier post. NPC Tracking disruptor update:After looking at this thread feedback this issue has been reopened internally (we thought it fixed a few weeks back). No promises on a resolution yet but we are currently looking into this. A bit of further explanation on our previous post as well, since there has been quite some conversation about it:EVE PvE systems, mainly mission running, are terribly outdated and are due for a change. Exactly how and when is not something we can state on the paper, but we had having several internal discussions on how this could be done. One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter. NPC bounties could be merged, or moved on progressive secondary objectives that require more and more skill from the player to achieve, while possibly having more risk. For instance, saving the Damsel could pay less or the same than it does today, but you could get extra rewards for completing special, more difficult objectives like rescuing her in a specific period of time, or blowing the evil Zor up before he runs away with her sister in his ship cargohold. Keep in mind this remain just an theoretical idea though that is most likely going to change if and when we start work on this particular point. Reducing NPC numbers also allows us to better scale EW player faces on a regular basis (mainly, we are referring to missions like the Blockade here). Assigning strong EW effects to few NPCs is fine, but it becomes horribly frustrating when faced with 5 full waves of NPCs sensor dampening you, as there is little the player can do to counter it. We should be relying on gameplay players can overcome if they are smart instead of brute force mechanics. Why are we considering changing PvE like this? That is because we are running missions and PvE content ourselves, and we are not particularly fond of the stale state PvE is in EVE Online right now, except for the most recent content (Incursions and Wormholes). Missions and exploration should let players gamble with risk if they feel up to it. While people looking for quick and relaxing content should still be able to do so, we also want players to find excitement from accomplishing missions and feel great about it. You should not be forced to shoot the same dull and repetitive encounters if you donGÇÖt feel up to it. It is a tricky thing to achieve though, as it does not mean we want you to lose ships every mission either. This would also be done to put mission runners more on an equal footing with hostile players when moving into hazardous space. People accomplishing missions in low-security or null-security space should not be at a disadvantage when engaged by other players because they have ship fittings tailored to fight NPCs. Ideally, battling NPCs should teach players how PvP works, how to defend and be better prepared about it should they choose to move into dangerous areas. We often hear "EVE is a PvP game, PvE is secondary". To this we would like to respond that EVE is a sandbox and shouldnGÇÖt necessarily favor one side over the other. What you do with it is up to you: all player activities should feel as appealing and rewarding no matter which choice you take, as long as you are willing to live up with the consequences of your actions. You are murdering our drone ships!We are aware of the recent changes brought by the NPC AI. As said in our previous post, the first NPC behavior deployed for Retribution was too extreme and has been corrected. However, we are aware that drone ships are receiving the short end of the stick here and have been ignored for quite a bit. This is especially valid since as the tiericide initiative continues, we are adding more drone hulls, but not looking at the drone mechanics themselves, which do need much love. Again, while we are not in a position to state how or when such revamp will happen, this definitely is on our to-do list not only to rebalance drones in general, but also update their behavior, improve their handling through the UI and finally add more combat options for players choosing to specialize in such gameplay. The need for such drone rebalance will only grow with time as we keep on rebalancing ships, so we do hope this can be done as soon as humanly possible. Oops, now I've written a wall of text Well anyway, we hope this do help a bit.
Thank you for the reply. I would like to mention that you talk a lot about "missions" (a term that we , the community, understand in a very specific way, referring namely to Agent Missions). I hope as you move forward you guys continue to realize how interconnected EVE PVE is and changes to Agent Missions might be good but NOT if they affect "Exploration, Anomalies and Complexes"
Exploration and Complexes serve different purposes than agent missions and require their own special care. A lot of the mess in null (plexes like Blood Raider Naval Shipyard) and low sec (lvl 5 missions are doable but some are not horrible) seems to have come from you guys making sweeping changes to content you didn't seem to understand. FoxFour admitted not being familiar with Fleet Staging Points (probably the most commonly gained escalation as it comes from the popular forsaken and forlorn hubs), which to me begs the question "why not review the content THEN change it".
It's hasn't been a disaster, but this whole thing IMO has been badly implemented (which is sad after the GENIUS of incursions and wormholes) and I hope going forward you guys don't repeat this kind of "cart before the horse" mistake. y'all can start by remembering that exploration and complexes ARE NOT the same things as agent missions. |
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
41
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 13:59:00 -
[319] - Quote
Overall, sounds good. But to cherry pick one part for a clarification (emphasis is mine)...
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Missions and exploration should let players gamble with risk if they feel up to it. While people looking for quick and relaxing content should still be able to do so, we also want players to find excitement from accomplishing missions and feel great about it. Does this mean something like the current/previous system will continue to exist for the casual player looking for a little brain-dead 'sploding of things? Or are you trying to make new content that will cover all playstyles? Because that sounds really hard. |
Tatiana W1sla
Toxic Subprime Assets Inc. Yulai Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 15:46:00 -
[320] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:EVE PvE systems, mainly mission running, are terribly outdated and are due for a change. Exactly how and when is not something we can state on the paper, but we had having several internal discussions on how this could be done.
One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter. NPC bounties could be merged, or moved on progressive secondary objectives that require more and more skill from the player to achieve, while possibly having more risk. For instance, saving the Damsel could pay less or the same than it does today, but you could get extra rewards for completing special, more difficult objectives like rescuing her in a specific period of time, or blowing the evil Zor up before he runs away with her sister in his ship cargohold. Keep in mind this remain just an theoretical idea though that is most likely going to change if and when we start work on this particular point.
Reducing NPC numbers also allows us to better scale EW player faces on a regular basis (mainly, we are referring to missions like the Blockade here). Hello and thank you for the post. Awesome plans, only one question: why the cart before the horse? Why first the more agressive AI with the zomfg numbers of rats, and only sometime later the reduced rat number and scaled payment, wouldn't it have been a LOT better to do the two the same, design the whole thing from bottom-up like as you have with WH/Incursion, instead of putting the AI from there on top? Yes, it's a trick, I pretend it to be a question. Apologies for that.
Awesome plans, only one question: why the cart before the horse? It seems that the ones that tested the changes had never done any complex/mission, and were satisfied with the new AI else they would have written this post before/with the expansion.
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Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
68
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 16:05:00 -
[321] - Quote
Hazen Koraka wrote:Surely npcs are subject to the same sensor rules for lock-on time as players? They can hit orbiting small drones with battleship sized guns and damp your optimal range and tracking to zero from 200 km away. Since they don't obey any of the other rules or limits that player ships are subject to, there's no good reason to think they're subject to the same rules on lock time either. |
Theron Urian
The Moirae Syndicate
25
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 16:45:00 -
[322] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium, thank you!
You have made my day, and most likely a lot of other players days as well. |
Dzajic
93
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 18:03:00 -
[323] - Quote
Just putting drones out on aggressive and going for dinner is bad. But current mechanics are worse. Way worse.
You can improve/change UI and drone behavior all you want, current setup is unworkable, especially for dedicated droneboats. Gun and missile ships can get other ways to deal with frigs (webs, painters, those missile rigs...), dedicated droneboats use drones as their dominant damage source (you don't say!), if you lose your drones in first 5 minutes of mission or site you have to leave and replace them. Lost time lost isk.
Currently only sentries are viable, but there are no small and medium sentries so non Ishtar non battleship droneboats are kinda in a bad place. Still with constantly pulling your drones back and back out you are loosing effective dps and decreasing your income/time and greatly increasing your stress/time.
To go back to original line. Yes afking without a worry and letting your drones clean out the site is bad. But for one it takes forever and as second you aren't really earning that much isk trough real "afking". But with current mechanics if your drones actually have to fly away to to the targets, they will die. Losing 10Mil in a set of large drones to kill one NPC battleship with a bounty of 1 mil is kinds counterproductive.
Even on hulls with drone hp bonus the amount of NPC love that drones now receive makes them live very very short if they draw agro. If they are at distance and webbing frigates get them, they won't be coming back.
Sentry boats still have to release lights when they need to clear tackle frigs that got in close, and still its a race will a single npc frig die before your drones do. Then you have to pull them back so npcs lose lock and agro, release again and repeat this for every single npc frig that got under 10k.
While Tengu is still just happily spewing HAMs or HMs at everything and really bothering himself. Less range then before, less damage, but principles have barely changed.
You have added a insane amount of work for drone pilots who now have to watch drone hp bars like hawks, never send them too far and pull them back at first sign of aggro to avoid loosing them. Other than turret BSes against Sansha I don't think any single class of ship is now as a chore to fly as drone-boats. Guristas may jam you, Sansha will TD your guns to 0 effectiveness... but every single group of NPCs will devour your drones.
If your only goal is to prevent full afking just have npcs switch agro to drones OCCASIONALLY. Not "must destroy all drones, all the time", just have them occasionally switch to drones so you can't be asleep while doing stuff. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
440
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 18:07:00 -
[324] - Quote
Dzajic wrote: Currently only sentries are viable, but there are no small and medium sentries so non Ishtar non battleship droneboats are kinda in a bad place.
3 or 4 sentry setups are viable, but I like your idea for smaller sentry drones. Maybe bigger ones, too. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1509
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 18:56:00 -
[325] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:
Awesome plans, only one question: why the cart before the horse? Why first the more agressive AI with the zomfg numbers of rats, and only sometime later the reduced rat number and scaled payment, wouldn't it have been a LOT better to do the two the same, design the whole thing from bottom-up like as you have with WH/Incursion, instead of putting the AI from there on top?
Yes, it's a trick, I pretend it to be a question. Apologies for that.
Because putting the cart before the horse works. http://www.mountlowe.org/mount-lowe-history/the-one-man-and-a-mule-railway/ http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
222
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 19:17:00 -
[326] - Quote
Thank you for the reply CCP Ytterbium.
Most of what you said sounds good and I look forward to it but I would like to offer one piece of advice. Make the new "PVP-PVE" Missions something NEW I will be playing them that's for sure but here is the thing, sometimes as people have said you just want a mindless grind for ISK and to try and make some money.
I love running some anomalies or missions while just chatting away with people in channels I am friends with, if PVE becomes something that requires the same focus as a solo PVP fight? I'm not going to be chatting much during that.
The older missions could still use a nice revamp I wont complain about that, but maybe you should be thinking about giving people more options rather than one style of missions? "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves." |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1509
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 19:36:00 -
[327] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter. and CCP Ytterbium wrote:Ideally, battling NPCs should teach players how PvP works Please tell me one thing. Why do you want to teach a player how to PvP, when that Player chose to PvE? .... I think its more of a fitting and tactics thing. Its not teaching you how to do a CTA, or operate in a PvP fleet, or obey an FC. Just make missions so you would do them sort of like now (get one go to the site, shoot stuff, return) just your fit and what you shoot would be closer to the same fit as if you were PvPing. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
dexington
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
539
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 19:54:00 -
[328] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Its not teaching you how to do a CTA, or operate in a PvP fleet, or obey an FC.
and that is all pvp is about? GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥ |
islador
Frontier Explorer's League Sadistica Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 19:59:00 -
[329] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, here is an update on our earlier post.
One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter.
Ok, you want to make PVE more like PVP? PVP rewards numbers, it does this by allowing any number of players on any side do whatever they want.
Want missions to be more fun? Want missions to engage more players and support group activity? Ok, heres how: Random Chance Escalation.
I'm not talking about sending me thirty jumps to maybe get some epic loot. I'm talking about an X percent chance that when I shoot that mission objective station, I get bridged on by 40 more battleship rats and a triage carrier to keep the whole fleet alive. An X percent chance that when I'm chewing through the Blockade (a gateless mission) the stargate I'm supposedly protecting springs to life ushering in double or triple the amount of rats.
Random Chance Escalation with a large enough escalation to make it worth me bringing friends will make missioning more like PVP and incentivize group missioning in a way currently not viable. It may not make it more like PVP in terms of pilot skill required, but it will make it more like PVP in that once the fight starts, theres no telling where it'll go.
If you want to get really awesome, in lowsec, make it so the 'triage carriers' ACTUALLY have the stats of a real triage carrier and an 120m bounty. This would incentivize me bringing in either a pile of friends to finish it off, or a dread or super carrier. I recognize that the CCP staff has said time and time again that they don't like the idea of supers generating income, but think of the potential PVP this could generate. Sieged dreads in gateless missions, super carriers or titans landing to quickly nuke the triage'd rat for that big isk.
These are conflict generators of epic proportions.
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Flying Apocalypse
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 20:09:00 -
[330] - Quote
islador wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, here is an update on our earlier post.
One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter.
Ok, you want to make PVE more like PVP? PVP rewards numbers, it does this by allowing any number of players on any side do whatever they want. Want missions to be more fun? Want missions to engage more players and support group activity? Ok, heres how: Random Chance Escalation. I'm not talking about sending me thirty jumps to maybe get some epic loot. I'm talking about an X percent chance that when I shoot that mission objective station, I get bridged on by 40 more battleship rats and a triage carrier to keep the whole fleet alive. An X percent chance that when I'm chewing through the Blockade (a gateless mission) the stargate I'm supposedly protecting springs to life ushering in double or triple the amount of rats. Random Chance Escalation with a large enough escalation to make it worth me bringing friends will make missioning more like PVP and incentivize group missioning in a way currently not viable. It may not make it more like PVP in terms of pilot skill required, but it will make it more like PVP in that once the fight starts, theres no telling where it'll go. If you want to get really awesome, in lowsec, make it so the 'triage carriers' ACTUALLY have the stats of a real triage carrier and an 120m bounty. This would incentivize me bringing in either a pile of friends to finish it off, or a dread or super carrier. I recognize that the CCP staff has said time and time again that they don't like the idea of supers generating income, but think of the potential PVP this could generate. Sieged dreads in gateless missions, super carriers or titans landing to quickly nuke the triage'd rat for that big isk. These are conflict generators of epic proportions.
120m bounty...they might as well make it a titan then... not to mention that such escalations would make solo-missioning impossible. Lvl 4's should be solo'able and lvl 5's should require a fleet IMO LOOKING FOR AMARR FOCUSED CHARACTER 20-30m sp https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183178&find=unread |
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Van Kuzco
Stryker Industries Ocularis Inferno
56
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 20:10:00 -
[331] - Quote
I would love a variety of mission objectives that require warp disruptors or scramblers.
More ideas could be a random small gang npc coming in and you having to make the choice to fight it or escape it. Dscan could tell you the fleet composition.
Perhaps in one mission there's a chance of a fast tackler preventing you from accessing an acceleration gate and if you don't kill it within a certain time period his backup fleet will arrive and most likely kill you.
In missions like Duo of Death it could be more like a 1v1 or 2v1 fight that would require you to utilize tracking disruptors or dampeners depending on the ship types that you are fighting. |
Van Kuzco
Stryker Industries Ocularis Inferno
56
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 20:11:00 -
[332] - Quote
Flying Apocalypse wrote: 120m bounty...they might as well make it a titan then... not to mention that such escalations would make solo-missioning impossible. Lvl 4's should be solo'able and lvl 5's should require a fleet IMO
It could just be more of a bonus then. No requirement for you to kill the cap ship. |
islador
Frontier Explorer's League Sadistica Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 20:17:00 -
[333] - Quote
Van Kuzco wrote:Flying Apocalypse wrote: 120m bounty...they might as well make it a titan then... not to mention that such escalations would make solo-missioning impossible. Lvl 4's should be solo'able and lvl 5's should require a fleet IMO
It could just be more of a bonus then. No requirement for you to kill the cap ship.
I actually want it to be difficult to complete. If you put the isk there, the people will find a way. We've seen it countless times. Those that are unwilling to find a way can just quit the mission. Remember it's a low percentage random chance, so you could just quit the mission and go on your way. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
194
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 20:29:00 -
[334] - Quote
Ytterbium: Any commentary regarding the AI and its tendency to mass-switch targets when a new player enters an anomaly? Specifically, the mass switch from the ratter to the hostile (to the ratter) newcomer, even if the newcomer has not taken any action yet - it happens as soon as they exit warp.
e: This may have been fixed already, I haven't been back to ratter hunting in at least a couple of weeks. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Marillio
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
3
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 20:49:00 -
[335] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, here is an update on our earlier post. ...PVE more like PVP... Oops, now I've written a wall of text Well anyway, we hope this do help a bit.
thx a lot for the detailed answer. Interesting to understand the idea behind the changes. Making PVE more like PVP should have all the changes, you did, but should change also some other things. The infinitive capacitor on the npcs should be removed to a normal capacitor. And the reloading of the amunition should be the same like on a playerbase. Then balance the numbers of the ships and it is nearly pvp. Include shooting drones, maybe give em drones, too and it will be a fair deal.
At least the capacitor thing would be very intersting. I would run a 10/10 Bloodraider in a Bhaalgorn fleet.
And to make PVE more interesting, you should allow alliances with souvereighnty to hire agents for their 0.0 stations for having their own missions in the deep space, where more content is really needed....
...and let players fight for the station incudes the level 5 agent for having more PVP again ;o)
and also thx to the people, who wrote interesting ideas to deal with the actual changes. I must say, this time, the support was right. Its helpful to use the forums. ^well-done.
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Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
68
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 22:01:00 -
[336] - Quote
Van Kuzco wrote:I would love a variety of mission objectives that require warp disruptors or scramblers. The only problem with this is that PvP fits in most typical (tech I) mission boats cannot stand up to huge amounts of sustained focus fire from dozens of attackers. PvP fits are by definition meant to either engage 1v1 against ships of similar strength (or weakness), or to run in fleets or small gangs, where you either hit and run (or just run when hitting does not look like a good idea), or where you rely on logi backup to deal with long fights against equal or greater numbers. This is why PvP fits are, with a few niche exceptions, always buffer tank fits. Not only is it all you can fit, it's also all that matters in the very short, high alpha fights you usually face, or where you have logi to keep you alive.
Losing those mid slots on most mission rigs, and having to run tackle on NPCs, will force you to go to a buffer fit that is just not going to stand up to the typical mission damage load. They would have to cut waaaaaaay back on the NPCs, to the point where the "tackle" missions are basically 1v1 against a ship no stronger than your own, or else missions will be only doable in small gangs or with logi support, just like PvP. That might be ok for some missions, but the dev comments posted just today state that they still want to accomodate "casual" solo mission runners as well, so it's not something that would fit well into every mission. |
Tanaka Aiko
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
146
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 23:03:00 -
[337] - Quote
@CCP Ytterbium :
I like the example on the damsel kidnapper fleeing, we could have some events like that, where you have some NPCs with pretty high bounties / loot trying to escape on a wave, and your job is to be on range and point them quickly. Obviously you also have to choose what you do ; continue killing the others, searching and pointing the better one, or trying to point more than one, which can be more dangerous but more rewarding if successful.
THAT would be a way to make PvE more like PvP : identify good primary, tackle it in time, and burn it before there friends kill you / rep him. Also a site with these things would give a reason to use interceptors or others tackle ships which have no use at all on normal PvE.
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Theo Ramone
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 23:03:00 -
[338] - Quote
Rather than making things new and shiny why dont you address the issue of people camping incursions and preventing those from being ran? Would be nice if the number of petitions that re opened on this wouldnt be ignored as they have been for a while now.....
As that say, if it aint broke dont fix it (Until the broke stuff is fixed) |
Theron Urian
The Moirae Syndicate
25
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 23:08:00 -
[339] - Quote
Freighdee Katt wrote:Van Kuzco wrote:I would love a variety of mission objectives that require warp disruptors or scramblers. The only problem with this is that PvP fits in most typical (tech I) mission boats cannot stand up to huge amounts of sustained focus fire from dozens of attackers. PvP fits are by definition meant to either engage 1v1 against ships of similar strength (or weakness), or to run in fleets or small gangs, where you either hit and run (or just run when hitting does not look like a good idea), or where you rely on logi backup to deal with long fights against equal or greater numbers. This is why PvP fits are, with a few niche exceptions, always buffer tank fits. Not only is it all you can fit, it's also all that matters in the very short, high alpha fights you usually face, or where you have logi to keep you alive. Losing those mid slots on most mission rigs, and having to run tackle on NPCs, will force you to go to a buffer fit that is just not going to stand up to the typical mission damage load. They would have to cut waaaaaaay back on the NPCs, to the point where the "tackle" missions are basically 1v1 against a ship no stronger than your own, or else missions will be only doable in small gangs or with logi support, just like PvP. That might be ok for some missions, but the dev comments posted just today state that they still want to accomodate "casual" solo mission runners as well, so it's not something that would fit well into every mission.
It was stated in the post that they would lower the number of npc in missions, and most mission ships are over tanked to begin with.
Dev comes in with ideas to improve the state of PvE, nothing is implemented yet and its just ideas and people are already shitting bricks.
Maybe people will need to learn to manage transversal speed, capacitor, and play the game instead of just turning on tank and face rolling, oh no more active game play its the bane of us all! |
Hellfreak
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 23:39:00 -
[340] - Quote
From Yitter- " Again, while we are not in a position to state how or when such revamp will happen, this definitely is on our to-do list not only to rebalance drones in general, but also update their behavior, improve their handling through the UI and finally add more combat options for players choosing to specialize in such gameplay."
Why did you guys release NPC AI changes in retribution before having everything worked out? Ewar ridiculousness included. Ive had 2 accounts inactive until you get this mess sorted- it doesnt seem you're making much progress :( I really enjoyed having the other 2 accounts running to fleet and do these things.The level 4 mission guys seem to be able to ignore or work around this stuff but the L5's are about stupid to do in a reasonable amount of time for the risk/reward involved. Now it seems you had no idea there were even issues still until very recently. That's another notch against the hope this will be resolved soon. I can afford to suspend/cancel these accounts but can you guys? including however many others there are not pleased with how this is working out?
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Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
474
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 00:46:00 -
[341] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: We should be relying on gameplay players can overcome if they are smart instead of brute force mechanics.
When can we expect to see this philosophy in pvp? |
Mortimer H
Terrorists of Dimensions Free 2 Play
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 02:46:00 -
[342] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: We should be relying on gameplay players can overcome if they are smart instead of brute force mechanics.
When can we expect to see this philosophy in pvp?
You can already see it: Smart players bring LOTS of brute force. |
Derdrom Utida
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 03:06:00 -
[343] - Quote
PvE should be made more interesting, but not by making it like PvP. They should have their distinct flavoring. How? I'm not sure, it's up to CCP. I'm glad they're realizing PvE doesn't need a buff, but instead ways to make it more interesting.
I say they should be friendlier toward small groups that want to take on PvE in low sec. |
Mortimer H
Terrorists of Dimensions Free 2 Play
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 04:00:00 -
[344] - Quote
And another one of those drone rants:
When Drones are attacked, they survive between 3 and 10 seconds. Just saw my drone's shield becoming red pretty fast. So I panicked and did something awfully stupid: While I reached for the hotkeys for calling my drones in I opened the contextmenu of my drones with my mouse. Before I got to the right entry I was at the hotkeys. Pressed them. Nothing happened. Pressed them again. Nothing happened. Hammered on the hotkeys like wild. Guess what. Finally i clicked somewhere with my mouse, the context menu closed and my hotkeys worked again. My drones came towards my ship, still beeing shot, and 4 out of 5 made it to the drone bay. I also noticed the drones will not immidiately react to hot keys after you have clicked on one of the windows. Can anyone tell me the current drone interface is made for fast reactions?
So, why not double the drone armor, tripple (or more?) the drone repair cost. Drones will not survive going afk anymore than now, calling them in and redeploying them would leave it's mark on their armor, you have a sensible chance of saving your drones and when the repair cost comes to a level that one will notice, then people will see how good or bad they handle their drones. As a side effect we would have a small money sink. And it could be implemented with quite little effort, I would guess.
While I did my mission, someone bought 10 hornets from me. I sell them quite expensive for producing them with an unresearched blueprint. (Couldn't compete with current prices anyway, no matter how much I research the bluprint.) Still the buyer decided to stack up with 5 more drones just minutes later. It's fine for now, but in the long run my drone business will not be well. Killing drones is fine, people have to restock then. But people have to actually use the drones, or they will not be killed.
|
Tauranon
Weeesearch
102
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 04:01:00 -
[345] - Quote
Freighdee Katt wrote:Van Kuzco wrote:I would love a variety of mission objectives that require warp disruptors or scramblers. The only problem with this is that PvP fits in most typical (tech I) mission boats cannot stand up to huge amounts of sustained focus fire from dozens of attackers. PvP fits are by definition meant to either engage 1v1 against ships of similar strength (or weakness), or to run in fleets or small gangs, where you either hit and run (or just run when hitting does not look like a good idea), or where you rely on logi backup to deal with long fights against equal or greater numbers. This is why PvP fits are, with a few niche exceptions, always buffer tank fits. Not only is it all you can fit, it's also all that matters in the very short, high alpha fights you usually face, or where you have logi to keep you alive. Losing those mid slots on most mission rigs, and having to run tackle on NPCs, will force you to go to a buffer fit that is just not going to stand up to the typical mission damage load. They would have to cut waaaaaaay back on the NPCs, to the point where the "tackle" missions are basically 1v1 against a ship no stronger than your own, or else missions will be only doable in small gangs or with logi support, just like PvP. That might be ok for some missions, but the dev comments posted just today state that they still want to accomodate "casual" solo mission runners as well, so it's not something that would fit well into every mission.
I've done all the missions gallente agents ever give out, with a dominix with a single rep, 4 hardeners and 1 med cap injector, and with the 15 or so cap 800s I can carry in. I typically have 4 slots dedicated to "discretionary applied dps modules". If one of those had to be a warp disruptor, then so be it. One imagines all races have this capability, and one imagines that even if I preferred my navy 'thron (I don't), I could still leave the cheap dominix hull at the mission station for a mission that did require it.
|
Shade Millith
Fortis Defensor.
46
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 06:48:00 -
[346] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. Oops, now I've written a wall of text Well anyway, we hope this do help a bit.
For me, as a PVP inclined individual, there is one universal problem with this. PVE is boring to me. All of it. The only reason I would have anything to do with PVE, in any game, is so I can PVP.
Right now, PVE is a boring, unpleasant chore that I can do with half a mind elsewhere. You want to make it a boring, unpleasant chore that I must pay full attention to.
Sounds about as fun as a kick in the teeth.
You talk about sandbox? Leave people who want the half-hearted grind, with the half-hearted grind, and make other interesting stuff for those who want something more interesting. Like the stuff you've already made, and have in game. Or did you forget about the Incursions and Wormholes?
I vote no. Leave us with a sandbox. |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
88
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 07:35:00 -
[347] - Quote
Holy crap.
They know how screwed up this is but there not going to roll it back till they can fix it.
At least this is totaly CCP style in full form.
Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here. |
Samuel Wess
Happy Folks Happy Cartel
9
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 08:30:00 -
[348] - Quote
I just tried a lv 4 mission against serpentis, 120 seconds lock time on a frigate i can go have breakfast and come back maybe ? Take a break, strech my legs ?
Edit: i got dampened and lost lock, time for another short break and forum post |
Sgt LoveDragon
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
40
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 09:36:00 -
[349] - Quote
Samuel Wess wrote:I just tried a lv 4 mission against serpentis, 120 seconds lock time on a frigate i can go have breakfast and come back maybe ? Take a break, strech my legs ?
Edit: i got dampened and lost lock, time for another short break and forum post
I think this is the so called afk missioning?! How dare you find exploit with broken things!
|
Theron Urian
The Moirae Syndicate
25
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 09:45:00 -
[350] - Quote
Shade Millith wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. Oops, now I've written a wall of text Well anyway, we hope this do help a bit. For me, as a PVP inclined individual, there is one universal problem with this. PVE is boring to me. All of it. The only reason I would have anything to do with PVE, in any game, is so I can PVP. Right now, PVE is a boring, unpleasant chore that I can do with half a mind elsewhere. You want to make it a boring, unpleasant chore that I must pay full attention to. Sounds about as fun as a kick in the teeth. You talk about sandbox? Leave people who want the half-hearted grind, with the half-hearted grind, and make other interesting stuff for those who want something more interesting. Like the stuff you've already made, and have in game. Or did you forget about the Incursions and Wormholes? I vote no. Leave us with a sandbox.
So let me get this right, you like and want boring mindless outdated content? Yup that makes perfect sense.
So if some one comes buy and offers you a free standard transmission sports car, your reply will be "No thanks I like my boring slow van because I don't need to think about shifting gears" Do you see how wrong that sounds? You just said the video game equivalent. |
|
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
88
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 10:22:00 -
[351] - Quote
Theron Urian wrote:Shade Millith wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. Oops, now I've written a wall of text Well anyway, we hope this do help a bit. For me, as a PVP inclined individual, there is one universal problem with this. PVE is boring to me. All of it. The only reason I would have anything to do with PVE, in any game, is so I can PVP. Right now, PVE is a boring, unpleasant chore that I can do with half a mind elsewhere. You want to make it a boring, unpleasant chore that I must pay full attention to. Sounds about as fun as a kick in the teeth. You talk about sandbox? Leave people who want the half-hearted grind, with the half-hearted grind, and make other interesting stuff for those who want something more interesting. Like the stuff you've already made, and have in game. Or did you forget about the Incursions and Wormholes? I vote no. Leave us with a sandbox. So let me get this right, you like and want boring mindless outdated content? Yup that makes perfect sense. So if some one comes buy and offers you a free standard transmission sports car, your reply will be "No thanks I like my boring slow van because I don't need to think about shifting gears" Do you see how wrong that sounds? You just said the video game equivalent.
I think what he is say is he dont like pve but do's it to fund pvp. Nothing new here only now he has to watch the pve every second up close no matter how boring it is to him.
I mine and chat for isk. I would hate it if the rocks started damping me and jamming me and if TD stoped my mining lazers from doing there jobs and 120 secs to lock rock. It would just suck. Becouse mining is boring. Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here. |
Sgt LoveDragon
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
40
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 10:23:00 -
[352] - Quote
Theron Urian wrote:Shade Millith wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. Oops, now I've written a wall of text Well anyway, we hope this do help a bit. For me, as a PVP inclined individual, there is one universal problem with this. PVE is boring to me. All of it. The only reason I would have anything to do with PVE, in any game, is so I can PVP. Right now, PVE is a boring, unpleasant chore that I can do with half a mind elsewhere. You want to make it a boring, unpleasant chore that I must pay full attention to. Sounds about as fun as a kick in the teeth. You talk about sandbox? Leave people who want the half-hearted grind, with the half-hearted grind, and make other interesting stuff for those who want something more interesting. Like the stuff you've already made, and have in game. Or did you forget about the Incursions and Wormholes? I vote no. Leave us with a sandbox. So let me get this right, you like and want boring mindless outdated content? Yup that makes perfect sense. So if some one comes buy and offers you a free standard transmission sports car, your reply will be "No thanks I like my boring slow van because I don't need to think about shifting gears" Do you see how wrong that sounds? You just said the video game equivalent.
You actually didn't get it right. You appear to have missed his point entirely. He cant stand pve which is the heart of the matter in this thread. Yet still he made more sense in that post than most of the bears complaining on the forums the last month.
I feel like i'm about to rewrite a dumbed down version of Shade's post. Read more write less. Or just read more.
|
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
439
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 10:44:00 -
[353] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, here is an update on our earlier post. NPC Tracking disruptor update:After looking at this thread feedback this issue has been reopened internally (we thought it fixed a few weeks back). No promises on a resolution yet but we are currently looking into this. A bit of further explanation on our previous post as well, since there has been quite some conversation about it:EVE PvE systems, mainly mission running, are terribly outdated and are due for a change. Exactly how and when is not something we can state on the paper, but we had having several internal discussions on how this could be done. One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter. NPC bounties could be merged, or moved on progressive secondary objectives that require more and more skill from the player to achieve, while possibly having more risk. For instance, saving the Damsel could pay less or the same than it does today, but you could get extra rewards for completing special, more difficult objectives like rescuing her in a specific period of time, or blowing the evil Zor up before he runs away with her sister in his ship cargohold. Keep in mind this remain just an theoretical idea though that is most likely going to change if and when we start work on this particular point. Reducing NPC numbers also allows us to better scale EW player faces on a regular basis (mainly, we are referring to missions like the Blockade here). Assigning strong EW effects to few NPCs is fine, but it becomes horribly frustrating when faced with 5 full waves of NPCs sensor dampening you, as there is little the player can do to counter it. We should be relying on gameplay players can overcome if they are smart instead of brute force mechanics. Why are we considering changing PvE like this? That is because we are running missions and PvE content ourselves, and we are not particularly fond of the stale state PvE is in EVE Online right now, except for the most recent content (Incursions and Wormholes). Missions and exploration should let players gamble with risk if they feel up to it. While people looking for quick and relaxing content should still be able to do so, we also want players to find excitement from accomplishing missions and feel great about it. You should not be forced to shoot the same dull and repetitive encounters if you donGÇÖt feel up to it. It is a tricky thing to achieve though, as it does not mean we want you to lose ships every mission either. This would also be done to put mission runners more on an equal footing with hostile players when moving into hazardous space. People accomplishing missions in low-security or null-security space should not be at a disadvantage when engaged by other players because they have ship fittings tailored to fight NPCs. Ideally, battling NPCs should teach players how PvP works, how to defend and be better prepared about it should they choose to move into dangerous areas. We often hear "EVE is a PvP game, PvE is secondary". To this we would like to respond that EVE is a sandbox and shouldnGÇÖt necessarily favor one side over the other. What you do with it is up to you: all player activities should feel as appealing and rewarding no matter which choice you take, as long as you are willing to live up with the consequences of your actions. You are murdering our drone ships!We are aware of the recent changes brought by the NPC AI. As said in our previous post, the first NPC behavior deployed for Retribution was too extreme and has been corrected. However, we are aware that drone ships are receiving the short end of the stick here and have been ignored for quite a bit. This is especially valid since as the tiericide initiative continues, we are adding more drone hulls, but not looking at the drone mechanics themselves, which do need much love. Again, while we are not in a position to state how or when such revamp will happen, this definitely is on our to-do list not only to rebalance drones in general, but also update their behavior, improve their handling through the UI and finally add more combat options for players choosing to specialize in such gameplay. The need for such drone rebalance will only grow with time as we keep on rebalancing ships, so we do hope this can be done as soon as humanly possible. Oops, now I've written a wall of text Well anyway, we hope this do help a bit.
1. Fewer npc's and more spiky dps (Being able to rep 100 dps forever should not be better than being able to rep 200 for a minute) 2. Require the use of points (Have npc's warp off/mwd away if you don't point/web them) making you lose bounties loot and potentially the mission objective. 3. Give missions random events (When you can go to a site and know EXACTLY what you're going to face things are too predictable) 4. Add more extremelly rare loot, especially in low sec missions. atm it feels kinda pointless to loot missions since mostly its just crap with no possibility of a rare 50 mill item having dropped somewhere. 5. lower highsec rewards FFS, increase lp and decrease isk.
After you do this, and you try them and find that you can do the hardest mission solo without ANY chance of dying whatsoever.. Do it again. PVE'ers need to get more used to losing their **** <.< |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7062
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 10:57:00 -
[354] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, here is an update on our earlier post. NPC Tracking disruptor update:After looking at this thread feedback this issue has been reopened internally (we thought it fixed a few weeks back). No promises on a resolution yet but we are currently looking into this. A bit of further explanation on our previous post as well, since there has been quite some conversation about it:EVE PvE systems, mainly mission running, are terribly outdated and are due for a change. Exactly how and when is not something we can state on the paper, but we had having several internal discussions on how this could be done. One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter. NPC bounties could be merged, or moved on progressive secondary objectives that require more and more skill from the player to achieve, while possibly having more risk. For instance, saving the Damsel could pay less or the same than it does today, but you could get extra rewards for completing special, more difficult objectives like rescuing her in a specific period of time, or blowing the evil Zor up before he runs away with her sister in his ship cargohold. Keep in mind this remain just an theoretical idea though that is most likely going to change if and when we start work on this particular point. Reducing NPC numbers also allows us to better scale EW player faces on a regular basis (mainly, we are referring to missions like the Blockade here). Assigning strong EW effects to few NPCs is fine, but it becomes horribly frustrating when faced with 5 full waves of NPCs sensor dampening you, as there is little the player can do to counter it. We should be relying on gameplay players can overcome if they are smart instead of brute force mechanics. Why are we considering changing PvE like this? That is because we are running missions and PvE content ourselves, and we are not particularly fond of the stale state PvE is in EVE Online right now, except for the most recent content (Incursions and Wormholes). Missions and exploration should let players gamble with risk if they feel up to it. While people looking for quick and relaxing content should still be able to do so, we also want players to find excitement from accomplishing missions and feel great about it. You should not be forced to shoot the same dull and repetitive encounters if you donGÇÖt feel up to it. It is a tricky thing to achieve though, as it does not mean we want you to lose ships every mission either. This would also be done to put mission runners more on an equal footing with hostile players when moving into hazardous space. People accomplishing missions in low-security or null-security space should not be at a disadvantage when engaged by other players because they have ship fittings tailored to fight NPCs. Ideally, battling NPCs should teach players how PvP works, how to defend and be better prepared about it should they choose to move into dangerous areas. We often hear "EVE is a PvP game, PvE is secondary". To this we would like to respond that EVE is a sandbox and shouldnGÇÖt necessarily favor one side over the other. What you do with it is up to you: all player activities should feel as appealing and rewarding no matter which choice you take, as long as you are willing to live up with the consequences of your actions. You are murdering our drone ships!We are aware of the recent changes brought by the NPC AI. As said in our previous post, the first NPC behavior deployed for Retribution was too extreme and has been corrected. However, we are aware that drone ships are receiving the short end of the stick here and have been ignored for quite a bit. This is especially valid since as the tiericide initiative continues, we are adding more drone hulls, but not looking at the drone mechanics themselves, which do need much love. Again, while we are not in a position to state how or when such revamp will happen, this definitely is on our to-do list not only to rebalance drones in general, but also update their behavior, improve their handling through the UI and finally add more combat options for players choosing to specialize in such gameplay. The need for such drone rebalance will only grow with time as we keep on rebalancing ships, so we do hope this can be done as soon as humanly possible. Oops, now I've written a wall of text Well anyway, we hope this do help a bit.
This is one of the best devposts I've ever seen.
Please, please, please MAKE THIS HAPPEN. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Shade Millith
Fortis Defensor.
47
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 11:48:00 -
[355] - Quote
Theron Urian wrote:Shade Millith wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. Oops, now I've written a wall of text Well anyway, we hope this do help a bit. For me, as a PVP inclined individual, there is one universal problem with this. PVE is boring to me. All of it. The only reason I would have anything to do with PVE, in any game, is so I can PVP. Right now, PVE is a boring, unpleasant chore that I can do with half a mind elsewhere. You want to make it a boring, unpleasant chore that I must pay full attention to. Sounds about as fun as a kick in the teeth. You talk about sandbox? Leave people who want the half-hearted grind, with the half-hearted grind, and make other interesting stuff for those who want something more interesting. Like the stuff you've already made, and have in game. Or did you forget about the Incursions and Wormholes? I vote no. Leave us with a sandbox. So let me get this right, you like and want boring mindless outdated content? Yup that makes perfect sense. So if some one comes buy and offers you a free standard transmission sports car, your reply will be "No thanks I like my boring slow van because I don't need to think about shifting gears" Do you see how wrong that sounds? You just said the video game equivalent.
More like -
Do I want a boring slow van with manual. Or do I want a boring slow van with automatic.
They're both boring as hell, one is just easier to drive with less bulls*** and both get me where I want to go at the same time. Which is to the PVP.
If this has gone over your head again, then here's a TL:DR -
1- PVE is boring to me, full stop. It will never interest me in a million years beyond a way to obtain ISK. I don't care how close to PVP it is, unless there is another person controlling that ship, I'm not interested. 2- The only reason I do any PVE is to get PVP. 3- Less interaction with the PVE is better, because it means I can do other things while doing the boring PVE. 4- More interaction is going to cause more boredom, because I can't do more interesting things while doing boring PVE. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
115
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 13:11:00 -
[356] - Quote
You should just put ship balancing on hold for now and do weapon and ammo rebalancing. Stuff will continue to be horribly broken until this gets done. |
Jonathan Malcom
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
116
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 15:23:00 -
[357] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, here is an update on our earlier post. NPC Tracking disruptor update:After looking at this thread feedback this issue has been reopened internally (we thought it fixed a few weeks back). No promises on a resolution yet but we are currently looking into this. A bit of further explanation on our previous post as well, since there has been quite some conversation about it:EVE PvE systems, mainly mission running, are terribly outdated and are due for a change. Exactly how and when is not something we can state on the paper, but we had having several internal discussions on how this could be done. One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter. NPC bounties could be merged, or moved on progressive secondary objectives that require more and more skill from the player to achieve, while possibly having more risk. For instance, saving the Damsel could pay less or the same than it does today, but you could get extra rewards for completing special, more difficult objectives like rescuing her in a specific period of time, or blowing the evil Zor up before he runs away with her sister in his ship cargohold. Keep in mind this remain just an theoretical idea though that is most likely going to change if and when we start work on this particular point. Reducing NPC numbers also allows us to better scale EW player faces on a regular basis (mainly, we are referring to missions like the Blockade here). Assigning strong EW effects to few NPCs is fine, but it becomes horribly frustrating when faced with 5 full waves of NPCs sensor dampening you, as there is little the player can do to counter it. We should be relying on gameplay players can overcome if they are smart instead of brute force mechanics. Why are we considering changing PvE like this? That is because we are running missions and PvE content ourselves, and we are not particularly fond of the stale state PvE is in EVE Online right now, except for the most recent content (Incursions and Wormholes). Missions and exploration should let players gamble with risk if they feel up to it. While people looking for quick and relaxing content should still be able to do so, we also want players to find excitement from accomplishing missions and feel great about it. You should not be forced to shoot the same dull and repetitive encounters if you donGÇÖt feel up to it. It is a tricky thing to achieve though, as it does not mean we want you to lose ships every mission either. This would also be done to put mission runners more on an equal footing with hostile players when moving into hazardous space. People accomplishing missions in low-security or null-security space should not be at a disadvantage when engaged by other players because they have ship fittings tailored to fight NPCs. Ideally, battling NPCs should teach players how PvP works, how to defend and be better prepared about it should they choose to move into dangerous areas. We often hear "EVE is a PvP game, PvE is secondary". To this we would like to respond that EVE is a sandbox and shouldnGÇÖt necessarily favor one side over the other. What you do with it is up to you: all player activities should feel as appealing and rewarding no matter which choice you take, as long as you are willing to live up with the consequences of your actions. You are murdering our drone ships!We are aware of the recent changes brought by the NPC AI. As said in our previous post, the first NPC behavior deployed for Retribution was too extreme and has been corrected. However, we are aware that drone ships are receiving the short end of the stick here and have been ignored for quite a bit. This is especially valid since as the tiericide initiative continues, we are adding more drone hulls, but not looking at the drone mechanics themselves, which do need much love. Again, while we are not in a position to state how or when such revamp will happen, this definitely is on our to-do list not only to rebalance drones in general, but also update their behavior, improve their handling through the UI and finally add more combat options for players choosing to specialize in such gameplay. The need for such drone rebalance will only grow with time as we keep on rebalancing ships, so we do hope this can be done as soon as humanly possible. Oops, now I've written a wall of text Well anyway, we hope this do help a bit.
I'm just going to leave this here.
|
Signal11th
Against ALL Anomalies
869
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 15:30:00 -
[358] - Quote
Jonathan Malcom wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, here is an update on our earlier post. NPC Tracking disruptor update:After looking at this thread feedback this issue has been reopened internally (we thought it fixed a few weeks back). No promises on a resolution yet but we are currently looking into this. A bit of further explanation on our previous post as well, since there has been quite some conversation about it:EVE PvE systems, mainly mission running, are terribly outdated and are due for a change. Exactly how and when is not something we can state on the paper, but we had having several internal discussions on how this could be done. One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter. NPC bounties could be merged, or moved on progressive secondary objectives that require more and more skill from the player to achieve, while possibly having more risk. For instance, saving the Damsel could pay less or the same than it does today, but you could get extra rewards for completing special, more difficult objectives like rescuing her in a specific period of time, or blowing the evil Zor up before he runs away with her sister in his ship cargohold. Keep in mind this remain just an theoretical idea though that is most likely going to change if and when we start work on this particular point. Reducing NPC numbers also allows us to better scale EW player faces on a regular basis (mainly, we are referring to missions like the Blockade here). Assigning strong EW effects to few NPCs is fine, but it becomes horribly frustrating when faced with 5 full waves of NPCs sensor dampening you, as there is little the player can do to counter it. We should be relying on gameplay players can overcome if they are smart instead of brute force mechanics. Why are we considering changing PvE like this? That is because we are running missions and PvE content ourselves, and we are not particularly fond of the stale state PvE is in EVE Online right now, except for the most recent content (Incursions and Wormholes). Missions and exploration should let players gamble with risk if they feel up to it. While people looking for quick and relaxing content should still be able to do so, we also want players to find excitement from accomplishing missions and feel great about it. You should not be forced to shoot the same dull and repetitive encounters if you donGÇÖt feel up to it. It is a tricky thing to achieve though, as it does not mean we want you to lose ships every mission either. This would also be done to put mission runners more on an equal footing with hostile players when moving into hazardous space. People accomplishing missions in low-security or null-security space should not be at a disadvantage when engaged by other players because they have ship fittings tailored to fight NPCs. Ideally, battling NPCs should teach players how PvP works, how to defend and be better prepared about it should they choose to move into dangerous areas. We often hear "EVE is a PvP game, PvE is secondary". To this we would like to respond that EVE is a sandbox and shouldnGÇÖt necessarily favor one side over the other. What you do with it is up to you: all player activities should feel as appealing and rewarding no matter which choice you take, as long as you are willing to live up with the consequences of your actions. You are murdering our drone ships!We are aware of the recent changes brought by the NPC AI. As said in our previous post, the first NPC behavior deployed for Retribution was too extreme and has been corrected. However, we are aware that drone ships are receiving the short end of the stick here and have been ignored for quite a bit. This is especially valid since as the tiericide initiative continues, we are adding more drone hulls, but not looking at the drone mechanics themselves, which do need much love. Again, while we are not in a position to state how or when such revamp will happen, this definitely is on our to-do list not only to rebalance drones in general, but also update their behavior, improve their handling through the UI and finally add more combat options for players choosing to specialize in such gameplay. The need for such drone rebalance will only grow with time as we keep on rebalancing ships, so we do hope this can be done as soon as humanly possible. Oops, now I've written a wall of text Well anyway, we hope this do help a bit. I'm just going to leave this here.
Eve forum warriors arguing about the same stuff that has been posted before....who would have guessed? God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7082
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 15:35:00 -
[359] - Quote
Shade Millith wrote:Theron Urian wrote:Shade Millith wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. Oops, now I've written a wall of text Well anyway, we hope this do help a bit. For me, as a PVP inclined individual, there is one universal problem with this. PVE is boring to me. All of it. The only reason I would have anything to do with PVE, in any game, is so I can PVP. Right now, PVE is a boring, unpleasant chore that I can do with half a mind elsewhere. You want to make it a boring, unpleasant chore that I must pay full attention to. Sounds about as fun as a kick in the teeth. You talk about sandbox? Leave people who want the half-hearted grind, with the half-hearted grind, and make other interesting stuff for those who want something more interesting. Like the stuff you've already made, and have in game. Or did you forget about the Incursions and Wormholes? I vote no. Leave us with a sandbox. So let me get this right, you like and want boring mindless outdated content? Yup that makes perfect sense. So if some one comes buy and offers you a free standard transmission sports car, your reply will be "No thanks I like my boring slow van because I don't need to think about shifting gears" Do you see how wrong that sounds? You just said the video game equivalent. More like - Do I want a boring slow van with manual. Or do I want a boring slow van with automatic. They're both boring as hell, one is just easier to drive with less bulls*** and both get me where I want to go at the same time. Which is to the PVP. If this has gone over your head again, then here's a TL:DR - 1- PVE is boring to me, full stop. It will never interest me in a million years beyond a way to obtain ISK. I don't care how close to PVP it is, unless there is another person controlling that ship, I'm not interested. 2- The only reason I do any PVE is to get PVP. 3- Less interaction with the PVE is better, because it means I can do other things while doing the boring PVE. 4- More interaction is going to cause more boredom, because I can't do more interesting things while doing boring PVE.
A man goes to see his doctor and says "Doctor I'm afraid I'm really unwell, whenever I do missions in EVE, they bore the ever-living crap out of me. What should I do, doctor?"
The doctor replies "Well stop running them, then." Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Flying Apocalypse
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 16:06:00 -
[360] - Quote
Jonathan Malcom wrote:I'm just going to leave this here.
The last response there:
smarter, stronger and fewer enemies, but not so smart and strong that it turns into PvP, we still want to feel invincible when we PvE.
New mission types (protection of asset/ship, attack against boss, and so on).
I like those 2 things, and altho there should be a risk of dieing(Like there is now, a small mistake might snowball quickly) it should not mean that we die every 5 missions, if I would want to die very often I'd just do PvP roams non-stop in null.
And I like the idea somewhere else in this thread of advanced missions, that would be more rewarding and more dangerous(require more than 1 ship) while also keeping the current missions that are not as rewarding and not as dangerous. LOOKING FOR AMARR FOCUSED CHARACTER 20-30m sp https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183178&find=unread |
|
Anneliese Pollard
University of Caille Gallente Federation
87
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 16:26:00 -
[361] - Quote
Flying Apocalypse wrote:Jonathan Malcom wrote:I'm just going to leave this here. The last response there: smarter, stronger and fewer enemies, but not so smart and strong that it turns into PvP, we still want to feel invincible when we PvE. New mission types (protection of asset/ship, attack against boss, and so on). I like those 2 things, and altho there should be a risk of dieing(Like there is now, a small mistake might snowball quickly) it should not mean that we die every 5 missions, if I would want to die very often I'd just do PvP roams non-stop in null. And I like the idea somewhere else in this thread of advanced missions, that would be more rewarding and more dangerous(require more than 1 ship) while also keeping the current missions that are not as rewarding and not as dangerous.
Personally, and this is only an opinion.
The faction storyline missions you get after grinding a NPC corp should be notably harder, and more built around the type of agent you have been grinding for the majority of the missions. This opens the door for bosses, boss drops, and eliminates the "freebie" mentality that missioners have when they get one of these. Distributions could be much larger payloads, travel into hostile territory, or require help to clear a room, whether it be a NPC group or player group. Faction standings could have much more of an impact, but not so much that the negatives for the other races eliminates the ability to faction grind all races.
Advanced missions could be semi-mini arcs, where your agent, after say, 30 missions grinding for that corp, directs you to a storyline agent. They can be a bit more difficult, offer randomization, and would be an effective preparation for players who want to start hitting up the epic arcs. Some classify mini-arcs as say, Recon1/2/3. I do not. I don't think Recon is a "mini-arc."
All of this would likely require a massive overhaul of the missioning mechanics, and would not be a fast implementation. There are other issues that should be looked at first, such as the current drone interfaces, and probably some additional ship balancings. Missions that would require escorts would be an example showing the massive amount of changes necessary to accommodate.
It's not a bad idea, but easy to add? I wouldn't think so.
|
Mund Richard
281
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 16:52:00 -
[362] - Quote
Anneliese Pollard wrote: The faction storyline missions you get after grinding a NPC corp should be notably harder, and more built around the type of agent you have been grinding for the majority of the missions. This opens the door for bosses, boss drops, and eliminates the "freebie" mentality that missioners have when they get one of these. Distributions could be much larger payloads, travel into hostile territory, or require help to clear a room, whether it be a NPC group or player group. Faction standings could have much more of an impact, but not so much that the negatives for the other races eliminates the ability to faction grind all races.
"freebie" Dunno, lately I'm skipping more of the storyline missions than not, as my high standings are enough for L5s, my low ones barely let me into half the hisec even with diplomacy trained.
There are pretty much two reasons I take one: 1) 8000 kernite (or such) for an implant is fair and fast enough. 2) A mission I don't know yet.
Patient Zero (EM pulse like when you blow up Krull's Garden... only smaller but constantly) given to me as drone boat user, with rewards that don't stand out compared to a Damsel that's just as fast... why would I swap ships for it? Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Nuela
Beacon Light Corporation Beacon Light Alliance
142
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 17:02:00 -
[363] - Quote
HydroSan wrote:Xtype Ass Penetration wrote:Onwards to WH space, maybe there shall be enough isk/hour with the new npc AI. My only hope remains that maybe goonswarm doesnt like the new changes, that will do the trick to change them back/again. Force me out of my drone ships, ONWARDS TO TENGULANDIA! As a member of goonswarm I shall go downstairs to my basement and get my ccp pets on this right away.
I KNEW IT! |
Theron Urian
The Moirae Syndicate
25
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 18:01:00 -
[364] - Quote
Shade Millith wrote:Theron Urian wrote:Shade Millith wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. Oops, now I've written a wall of text Well anyway, we hope this do help a bit. For me, as a PVP inclined individual, there is one universal problem with this. PVE is boring to me. All of it. The only reason I would have anything to do with PVE, in any game, is so I can PVP. Right now, PVE is a boring, unpleasant chore that I can do with half a mind elsewhere. You want to make it a boring, unpleasant chore that I must pay full attention to. Sounds about as fun as a kick in the teeth. You talk about sandbox? Leave people who want the half-hearted grind, with the half-hearted grind, and make other interesting stuff for those who want something more interesting. Like the stuff you've already made, and have in game. Or did you forget about the Incursions and Wormholes? I vote no. Leave us with a sandbox. So let me get this right, you like and want boring mindless outdated content? Yup that makes perfect sense. So if some one comes buy and offers you a free standard transmission sports car, your reply will be "No thanks I like my boring slow van because I don't need to think about shifting gears" Do you see how wrong that sounds? You just said the video game equivalent. More like - Do I want a boring slow van with manual. Or do I want a boring slow van with automatic. They're both boring as hell, one is just easier to drive with less bulls*** and both get me where I want to go at the same time. Which is to the PVP. If this has gone over your head again, then here's a TL:DR - 1- PVE is boring to me, full stop. It will never interest me in a million years beyond a way to obtain ISK. I don't care how close to PVP it is, unless there is another person controlling that ship, I'm not interested. 2- The only reason I do any PVE is to get PVP. 3- Less interaction with the PVE is better, because it means I can do other things while doing the boring PVE. 4- More interaction is going to cause more boredom, because I can't do more interesting things while doing boring PVE.
|
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
476
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 18:53:00 -
[365] - Quote
Mortimer H wrote:Michael Harari wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: We should be relying on gameplay players can overcome if they are smart instead of brute force mechanics.
When can we expect to see this philosophy in pvp? You can already see it: Smart players bring LOTS of brute force.
|
Duvon
Ashfell Celestial Corporation POD-SQUAD
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 19:01:00 -
[366] - Quote
That's awesome! I already had to scrap my drone boat and begin retraining to a missile boat drake just to run L3's. I was feeling down all my drone skill focus had gone to waste. It'll be great to pull the `ol "S.S. Mob Bait" out of dry dock. |
Pesadel0
the muppets The Kadeshi
50
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 20:08:00 -
[367] - Quote
Man really why make PVE missions be more like PVP? If a person is doing missions maybe , i mean maybe he wants to PVE ...Give players what we all asked before don't destroy the PVE environment with stupid changes.
PVE needs more missions ,more rewards lp store , missions that have a *gasp* story?I Think the changes you made at the 0.0 were dumb enough, anoms nerf, rats belt nerfs etc etc ...
Maybe create more content instead of making X harder by making all npcs behave like sleepers.. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
2876
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 22:02:00 -
[368] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium,
I'm not sure if you read my article or not, but the general idea is similar in creating missions that is closer to what the pvp experience is.
http://evenews24.com/2012/12/26/a-fresh-new-look-at-missions-and-how-aura-did-you-dirty/
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Theron Urian
The Moirae Syndicate
25
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 00:43:00 -
[369] - Quote
Good article. I like some ideas while I am a little iffy on others, but that is ok because any ideas to improve upon PvE are ultimately a good thing and will get the ball rolling in the right direction and get more ideas and conversations flowing. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
102
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 00:54:00 -
[370] - Quote
Pesadel0 wrote:Man really why make PVE missions be more like PVP? If a person is doing missions maybe , i mean maybe he wants to PVE ...Give players what we all asked before don't destroy the PVE environment with stupid changes.
PVE needs more missions ,more rewards lp store , missions that have a *gasp* story?I Think the changes you made at the 0.0 were dumb enough, anoms nerf, rats belt nerfs etc etc ...
Maybe create more content instead of making X harder by making all npcs behave like sleepers..
The problem with storied mission arcs is they cost a lot to produce, the playerbase goes through them in a week, and then they are basically worn out. That is the lesson that WoW teaches. There are ample missions available as is.
The LP stores are fine as is, if you want different items from PVE, do some exploration content, after all a corelum c-type energized adaptive nano is a better item than a gallente navy energized adaptive nano from the LP stores in the same regions, and there are even better things available in lowsec and null. |
|
Shade Millith
Fortis Defensor.
48
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 00:58:00 -
[371] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Shade Millith wrote:
More like -
Do I want a boring slow van with manual. Or do I want a boring slow van with automatic.
They're both boring as hell, one is just easier to drive with less bulls*** and both get me where I want to go at the same time. Which is to the PVP.
If this has gone over your head again, then here's a TL:DR -
1- PVE is boring to me, full stop. It will never interest me in a million years beyond a way to obtain ISK. I don't care how close to PVP it is, unless there is another person controlling that ship, I'm not interested. 2- The only reason I do any PVE is to get PVP. 3- Less interaction with the PVE is better, because it means I can do other things while doing the boring PVE. 4- More interaction is going to cause more boredom, because I can't do more interesting things while doing boring PVE.
A man goes to see his doctor and says "Doctor I'm afraid I'm really unwell, whenever I do missions in EVE, they bore the ever-living crap out of me. What should I do, doctor?" The doctor replies "Well stop running them, then."
Then here's a question...
How am I supposed to make a steady supply of ISK?
Plexes? PVE, boring. Wormholes? PVE, boring. Belt Ratting? PVE, boring. Incursions? PVE, boring. Mining? PVE, boring. Missions? PVE, boring. POS's? HAH, not likely. |
Theron Urian
The Moirae Syndicate
25
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 01:14:00 -
[372] - Quote
Shade Millith wrote:Malcanis wrote:Shade Millith wrote:
More like -
Do I want a boring slow van with manual. Or do I want a boring slow van with automatic.
They're both boring as hell, one is just easier to drive with less bulls*** and both get me where I want to go at the same time. Which is to the PVP.
If this has gone over your head again, then here's a TL:DR -
1- PVE is boring to me, full stop. It will never interest me in a million years beyond a way to obtain ISK. I don't care how close to PVP it is, unless there is another person controlling that ship, I'm not interested. 2- The only reason I do any PVE is to get PVP. 3- Less interaction with the PVE is better, because it means I can do other things while doing the boring PVE. 4- More interaction is going to cause more boredom, because I can't do more interesting things while doing boring PVE.
A man goes to see his doctor and says "Doctor I'm afraid I'm really unwell, whenever I do missions in EVE, they bore the ever-living crap out of me. What should I do, doctor?" The doctor replies "Well stop running them, then." Then here's a question... How am I supposed to make a steady supply of ISK? Plexes? PVE, boring. Wormholes? PVE, boring. Belt Ratting? PVE, boring. Incursions? PVE, boring. Mining? PVE, boring. Missions? PVE, boring. POS's? HAH, not likely.
Faction warfare, PI, shoot belt rats while your out roaming anyways, selling loot from roams, station trade alt, Corp ship replacement policies, insurance, start a youtube or stream showing niche / interesting pvp roams, ideas, or info and get a sponsorship and have viewers donate ships, scamming on an alt in Jita, and countless other ways.
And you already said your bored with PvE so why would being bored with mining be any worse... its even more of an afk activity so you should looooove it, go ice mine and watch a movie.
Hopefully that helps. Stop trying to come off like a kicked puppy making it sound like you are forced to do content you think is boring.
|
Shade Millith
Fortis Defensor.
48
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 06:07:00 -
[373] - Quote
Theron Urian wrote:Sounds like you just cant be pleased and will rage and cry no matter what.
I'm irritated that in 'Improving' the game, they're removing people's options.
If you want advanced AI, with more reward, there's Worm Holes and Incursions. If you want a half-hearted grind with less ISK, there's missions.
Instead, they're trying to make missions into the same pain in the arse Worm Holes and Incursions are, if 'PVP like' is any indication.
Some people, shockingly enough, may not want that.
Yes, make advanced AI, and PVE that is more PVP like, but don't gut already established mechanics to do it. Make something new.
Hell, we've already got a place for it. Worm Holes and Incursions. Put this new AI there, and if someone wants to have a more PVP like encounter, they can go there!
Like they were freaking designed to be in the first place. |
Vas Eldryn
Flying While Intoxicated Apocalypse Now.
3
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 06:28:00 -
[374] - Quote
new AI just hit null complexes tonight.... a word of advice ... when you remove an entire class of ships ability to make isk, give us a heads up...
taking a 6 month break till i can fly missile ships.... please give me a heads up if you decide to make missiles redundant in the next 6 months though...
ty |
Vince Snetterton
240
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 07:55:00 -
[375] - Quote
Vas Eldryn wrote:new AI just hit null complexes tonight.... a word of advice ... when you remove an entire class of ships ability to make isk, give us a heads up...
taking a 6 month break till i can fly missile ships.... please give me a heads up if you decide to make missiles redundant in the next 6 months though...
ty
Whoa...what do you mean "tonight"? I thought these changes hit across the board back in December? |
Vas Eldryn
Flying While Intoxicated Apocalypse Now.
3
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 08:28:00 -
[376] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:Vas Eldryn wrote:new AI just hit null complexes tonight.... a word of advice ... when you remove an entire class of ships ability to make isk, give us a heads up...
taking a 6 month break till i can fly missile ships.... please give me a heads up if you decide to make missiles redundant in the next 6 months though...
ty Whoa...what do you mean "tonight"? I thought these changes hit across the board back in December?
guess they amped it up tonight, cant even deploy drones in null plexes without pulling agro of everyone else in the room instantly... every time i undocked drones , all agro is dumped on drones |
Marillio
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
3
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 15:58:00 -
[377] - Quote
Today another friend left the game due to the changes and having no fun anymore. 7 years, every day in the same channel and now hes gone. I dont know, if it was really worth to change the game like this. One can not simply take an online player everything he liked to play, without having to bear the consequences.
That leads me to another thing. If a game gets unbalanced, it gets uninteresting very fast. Even after 10 years of playing. I always thought, we play this game forever, no matter what happens, but I was wrong. My friend left without saying much, just its bored and he wanna have fun again. Very sad, that this happens so fast. |
Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
183
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 16:09:00 -
[378] - Quote
Marillio wrote:Today another friend left the game due to the changes and having no fun anymore. 7 years, every day in the same channel and now hes gone. I dont know, if it was really worth to change the game like this. One can not simply take an online player everything he liked to play, without having to bear the consequences. That leads me to another thing. If a game gets unbalanced, it gets uninteresting very fast. Even after 10 years of playing. I always thought, we play this game forever, no matter what happens, but I was wrong. My friend left without saying much, just its bored and he wanna have fun again. Very sad, that this happens so fast. I will also leave eve in 15 days when my subscription expires.
I will return if NPC AI and when NPC AI becomes like it was before. Those are my terms: 1. Roll back all npc changes.
If that doesn't happen, i'll go and play some other PVE games that are more fun. And no you can't have my stuff. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
120
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 16:25:00 -
[379] - Quote
Marillio wrote:Today another friend left the game due to the changes and having no fun anymore. 7 years, every day in the same channel and now hes gone. I dont know, if it was really worth to change the game like this. One can not simply take an online player everything he liked to play, without having to bear the consequences. That leads me to another thing. If a game gets unbalanced, it gets uninteresting very fast. Even after 10 years of playing. I always thought, we play this game forever, no matter what happens, but I was wrong. My friend left without saying much, just its bored and he wanna have fun again. Very sad, that this happens so fast.
Problem is, that eve fairly never got this kind of masses playing at the same time. 40-50k pilots active at all times are a lot. Before the retribution patch I usually saw 20-30k only. |
Theron Urian
The Moirae Syndicate
25
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 17:22:00 -
[380] - Quote
Shade Millith wrote:Theron Urian wrote:Sounds like you just cant be pleased and will rage and cry no matter what. I'm irritated that in 'Improving' the game, they're removing people's options. If you want advanced AI, with more reward, there's Worm Holes and Incursions. If you want a half-hearted grind with less ISK, there's missions. Instead, they're trying to make missions into the same pain in the arse Worm Holes and Incursions are, if 'PVP like' is any indication. Some people, shockingly enough, may not want that. Yes, make advanced AI, and PVE that is more PVP like, but don't gut already established mechanics to do it. Make something new. Hell, we've already got a place for it. Worm Holes and Incursions. Put this new AI there, and if someone wants to have a more PVP like encounter, they can go there! Like they were freaking designed to be in the first place.
They are not removing any options at all, they are improving upon existing in game content. If you feel that your option to PvE is removed because you hate PvE and now need to pay a little more attention, then you are the equivalent of a blind art critic, you already hate PvE no matter what. PvE is currently not fun for you, it will continue to be as you say "not fun for you", Find another isk source and be done with it then.
From a game design stand point that people would want to go watch tv or youtube while grinding or playing your game is a bad thing. CCP wants each element of the game to be as fun and enveloping as it possibly can be, they want people to play the game not feel like its some thing to have running in the background and check on evrey once in a blue moon. This is not a Korean grind fest mmo, they want people to play the game and have fun.
Why would they continue to leave old outdated game mechanics and pile new ones on top of them non stop, all this will do is eventually make the game a trash heap of jumbled ideas and mechanics and leave the game feeling severely disjointed.
I know people here hate WOW but I am going to use it as an example, when wow changed Azeroth to be in line with the other expansions it was to bring old content in to line with new more engaging and entertaining content, instead of leaving a huge boring disconnected chunk of game.5 |
|
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
120
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 17:27:00 -
[381] - Quote
Quote:I know people here hate WOW but I am going to use it as an example, when wow changed Azeroth to be in line with the other expansions it was to bring old content in to line with new more engaging and entertaining content, instead of leaving a huge boring disconnected chunk of game.5
thats is when i left wow permanently, lol ironic |
Marillio
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
3
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 17:34:00 -
[382] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Marillio wrote:Today another friend left the game due to the changes and having no fun anymore. 7 years, every day in the same channel and now hes gone. I dont know, if it was really worth to change the game like this. One can not simply take an online player everything he liked to play, without having to bear the consequences. That leads me to another thing. If a game gets unbalanced, it gets uninteresting very fast. Even after 10 years of playing. I always thought, we play this game forever, no matter what happens, but I was wrong. My friend left without saying much, just its bored and he wanna have fun again. Very sad, that this happens so fast. Problem is, that eve fairly never got this kind of masses playing at the same time. 40-50k pilots active at all times are a lot. Before the retribution patch I usually saw 20-30k only.
Maybe its more interesting to get new players, because if you have 150 mil skillpoints, like me, the challange to launch interesting content for my characters is not so easy, that could be the reason, why they nerve existing content so much.
PVE was brutal fun with only two accounts befor retribution, but maybe because it was too easy. I am looking for alternatives, too. There are so many ways to make isk, but most of them are not that interesting for high-skilled players. Maybe CCP wants more players paying real money to play the game and found out that too many people were paying it with easy mission-isk. Who knows, what the real motivation is.
I have always payed with real money, because i wanted to support good software developments with good money. Now my accounts are active till september and the daily gameplay is gone. But i would have never expected, that they change the game like this, even if the motivation is understandable.
Today in corp they told me, CCP is planning to nerv Tech 3 in the summer, too. I dont understand those ideas of balancing, because I thought, they gonna launch more tech 3 content. Not understandable, because it will kill all the class 1-3 wormhole PVE next.
Anyway, it doesnt matter, what they do, even if they shut down the server, EVE has given me so much fun and good times, at least this they cant nerve. |
Theron Urian
The Moirae Syndicate
25
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 18:01:00 -
[383] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Quote:I know people here hate WOW but I am going to use it as an example, when wow changed Azeroth to be in line with the other expansions it was to bring old content in to line with new more engaging and entertaining content, instead of leaving a huge boring disconnected chunk of game.5 thats is when i left wow permanently, lol ironic
But why exactly did you leave, was if for this exact reason?
Point of the statement is that leaving in old archaic boring game content (and then refusing to update it) in with new entertaining content leaves a game feeling disjointed and is a bad design idea.
I invite any one to find fault with that statement. I am betting the fault will be "They are removing my semi afk mind numbing isk grind and now I need to pay attention or find a new way to make isk and both are hard.".
People are complaining about a update and improvement to the game because of what boils down to just plain being lazy and set in their ways.
|
Theron Urian
The Moirae Syndicate
25
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 18:09:00 -
[384] - Quote
Marillio wrote:Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Marillio wrote:Today another friend left the game due to the changes and having no fun anymore. 7 years, every day in the same channel and now hes gone. I dont know, if it was really worth to change the game like this. One can not simply take an online player everything he liked to play, without having to bear the consequences. That leads me to another thing. If a game gets unbalanced, it gets uninteresting very fast. Even after 10 years of playing. I always thought, we play this game forever, no matter what happens, but I was wrong. My friend left without saying much, just its bored and he wanna have fun again. Very sad, that this happens so fast. Problem is, that eve fairly never got this kind of masses playing at the same time. 40-50k pilots active at all times are a lot. Before the retribution patch I usually saw 20-30k only. Maybe its more interesting to get new players, because if you have 150 mil skillpoints, like me, the challange to launch interesting content for my characters is not so easy, that could be the reason, why they nerve existing content so much. PVE was brutal fun with only two accounts befor retribution, but maybe because it was too easy. I am looking for alternatives, too. There are so many ways to make isk, but most of them are not that interesting for high-skilled players. Maybe CCP wants more players paying real money to play the game and found out that too many people were paying it with easy mission-isk. Who knows, what the real motivation is. I have always payed with real money, because i wanted to support good software developments with good money. Now my accounts are active till september and the daily gameplay is gone. But i would have never expected, that they change the game like this, even if the motivation is understandable. Today in corp they told me, CCP is planning to nerv Tech 3 in the summer, too. I dont understand those ideas of balancing, because I thought, they gonna launch more tech 3 content. Not understandable, because it will kill all the class 1-3 wormhole PVE next. Anyway, it doesnt matter, what they do, even if they shut down the server, EVE has given me so much fun and good times, at least this they cant nerve.
Yes they are nerfing T3s, the point of T3 was to have a modular hull that could be built to handle any situation the player wanted and be good at it, not to be the best be all end all ship. Read the csm minutes, read the design ideas, T3 will still have its place in the game.
Right now T3 are better Hacs than Hacs, better Recon than Recon ships, ect, ect, ect. The current iteration of T3 ships was not the design idea they had from the start. |
Illusive Wolf
Dropbear Preservation Society Test Alliance Please Ignore
10
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 19:35:00 -
[385] - Quote
Make PvE more like PvP... Fine. When was the last time all the frigs in a -A- fleet decided they would shoot my hobgoblins? |
Nuela
Beacon Light Corporation Beacon Light Alliance
142
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 21:04:00 -
[386] - Quote
Shade Millith wrote:Malcanis wrote:Shade Millith wrote:
More like -
Do I want a boring slow van with manual. Or do I want a boring slow van with automatic.
They're both boring as hell, one is just easier to drive with less bulls*** and both get me where I want to go at the same time. Which is to the PVP.
If this has gone over your head again, then here's a TL:DR -
1- PVE is boring to me, full stop. It will never interest me in a million years beyond a way to obtain ISK. I don't care how close to PVP it is, unless there is another person controlling that ship, I'm not interested. 2- The only reason I do any PVE is to get PVP. 3- Less interaction with the PVE is better, because it means I can do other things while doing the boring PVE. 4- More interaction is going to cause more boredom, because I can't do more interesting things while doing boring PVE.
A man goes to see his doctor and says "Doctor I'm afraid I'm really unwell, whenever I do missions in EVE, they bore the ever-living crap out of me. What should I do, doctor?" The doctor replies "Well stop running them, then." Then here's a question... How am I supposed to make a steady supply of ISK? Plexes? PVE, boring. Wormholes? PVE, boring. Belt Ratting? PVE, boring. Incursions? PVE, boring. Mining? PVE, boring. Missions? PVE, boring. POS's? HAH, not likely.
Get a part time job. Use that money to sell Plex. Every couple hours you can afford what now...about an billion isk? Both may be boring but you well spend less time working at your part-time job in order to get your isk. |
KaDa en Bauldry
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 21:16:00 -
[387] - Quote
Nuela wrote:Get a part time job. Use that money to sell Plex. Every couple hours you can afford what now...about an billion isk? Both may be boring but you well spend less time working at your part-time job in order to get your isk.
...Last time I had a part time job, with 12 hours at work, I earned enough for one PLEX I suppose. That's like 600 mill?
Including the travel time, I can get more isk ingame for the same time spent.
I know, I should have gotten a real job while at the university still. It is in the works. |
Theron Urian
The Moirae Syndicate
25
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 21:28:00 -
[388] - Quote
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:Nuela wrote:Get a part time job. Use that money to sell Plex. Every couple hours you can afford what now...about an billion isk? Both may be boring but you well spend less time working at your part-time job in order to get your isk. ...Last time I had a part time job, with 12 hours at work, I earned enough for one PLEX I suppose. That's like 600 mill? Including the travel time, I can get more isk ingame for the same time spent. I know, I should have gotten a real job while at the university still. It is in the works.
Excuse me.... what? 12 hours of work = one plex? Umm no sorry.
I think minimum wage in the states is around 7.75 per hour, and most part time jobs are even paying over min wage.
7.75 x 12= 93 Dollars 6 plex = 105 US. 6 x around lets say 550 mil isk = 3.3 bil isk
Subtract gas/transportation and taxes, that's about lets say 2 bil for 12 hours of extra work a week. Or you can grind out pve and make lets be generous and say 150 mil per hour... that equals out to 1.8 mil. |
Vince Snetterton
240
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 22:03:00 -
[389] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Marillio wrote:Today another friend left the game due to the changes and having no fun anymore. 7 years, every day in the same channel and now hes gone. I dont know, if it was really worth to change the game like this. One can not simply take an online player everything he liked to play, without having to bear the consequences. That leads me to another thing. If a game gets unbalanced, it gets uninteresting very fast. Even after 10 years of playing. I always thought, we play this game forever, no matter what happens, but I was wrong. My friend left without saying much, just its bored and he wanna have fun again. Very sad, that this happens so fast. Problem is, that eve fairly never got this kind of masses playing at the same time. 40-50k pilots active at all times are a lot. Before the retribution patch I usually saw 20-30k only.
Let's see those numbers in a few more months. Well, let me rephrase that.
Login numbers are useless now, because there is an unknown amount of open beta Dust testers counted in the login number. And that number is only going to climb.
The only thing that matters will be the Eve Online (not Dust) sub numbers. And the full impact of the AI Armageddon won't be known for months, until people's 6 month/12 month subs slowly unwind. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
120
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 22:07:00 -
[390] - Quote
Theron Urian wrote:KaDa en Bauldry wrote:Nuela wrote:Get a part time job. Use that money to sell Plex. Every couple hours you can afford what now...about an billion isk? Both may be boring but you well spend less time working at your part-time job in order to get your isk. ...Last time I had a part time job, with 12 hours at work, I earned enough for one PLEX I suppose. That's like 600 mill? Including the travel time, I can get more isk ingame for the same time spent. I know, I should have gotten a real job while at the university still. It is in the works. Excuse me.... what? 12 hours of work = one plex? Umm no sorry. I think minimum wage in the states is around 7.75 per hour, and most part time jobs are even paying over min wage. 7.75 x 12= 93 Dollars 6 plex = 105 US. 6 x around lets say 550 mil isk = 3.3 bil isk Subtract gas/transportation and taxes, that's about lets say 2 bil for 12 hours of extra work a week. Or you can grind out pve and make lets be generous and say 150 mil per hour... that equals out to 1.8 mil.
Did you realize that the US is not the whole world, in most of europe if you got 7,75 us dollars/hour than youre very well paid. In my country the cost of bread is 1,25 usd/kg and the minimum salary is approx. 1,5 usd. Ofcourse since youre american you dont even know how much a kilogramm weights. No offense, and sorry but i feel embarassed that you dont count me on the map because im not in the center of it.
|
|
Call Rollard
Grim Determination Academy Nulli Tertius
20
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 22:08:00 -
[391] - Quote
R.I.P all drones that die due to this new AI. |
Muffinstops
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:46:00 -
[392] - Quote
The new AI is lame!!
Since the change it has made the game less enjoyable, its like you need 2 ships / 2 accounts just to mission.
Ewar is out of control, its hard to even have fun even in a shiny ship. thats perma damped, jammed, disrupted ect. I suppose if i had a machariel and could mission on angels all day i would haha:)
with the changes, it just feels like you have to sluuuuug it threw slowly in mission sites ect. I find flying my ships much less fun now, instead of feeling like i am destroying things , i feel like a slow boat to the finish line of the mission/plex :(
I sure hope they revert these changes!!!
leave PVE as PVE and PVP as PVP, we have sleepers in WH's for hard npc ai. |
Theron Urian
The Moirae Syndicate
25
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 00:32:00 -
[393] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Theron Urian wrote:KaDa en Bauldry wrote:Nuela wrote:Get a part time job. Use that money to sell Plex. Every couple hours you can afford what now...about an billion isk? Both may be boring but you well spend less time working at your part-time job in order to get your isk. ...Last time I had a part time job, with 12 hours at work, I earned enough for one PLEX I suppose. That's like 600 mill? Including the travel time, I can get more isk ingame for the same time spent. I know, I should have gotten a real job while at the university still. It is in the works. Excuse me.... what? 12 hours of work = one plex? Umm no sorry. I think minimum wage in the states is around 7.75 per hour, and most part time jobs are even paying over min wage. 7.75 x 12= 93 Dollars 6 plex = 105 US. 6 x around lets say 550 mil isk = 3.3 bil isk Subtract gas/transportation and taxes, that's about lets say 2 bil for 12 hours of extra work a week. Or you can grind out pve and make lets be generous and say 150 mil per hour... that equals out to 1.8 mil. Did you realize that the US is not the whole world, in most of europe if you got 7,75 us dollars/hour than youre very well paid. In my country the cost of bread is 1,25 usd/kg and the minimum salary is approx. 1,5 usd. Ofcourse since youre american you dont even know how much a kilogramm weights. No offense, and sorry but i feel embarassed that you dont count me on the map because im not in the center of it.
Awww is some one cranky? Do you need a nap? Here let me explain it to you, many countries in Europe have equivalent if not highly superior minimum wage compared to America, yes some do have lower but I was going by what is called an average, do you know what that is? If I don't supposedly know what a kilogram is then you may not have heard of an AVERAGE. Forgive me please I did not want to go in to math on the subject for evrey country in the world separately.
Congratulations on implying all Americans are stupid and coming off like an angry little teenager, and Europeans say that we Americans are uncivil.
So what country are you from that I neglected to talk about? |
KaDa en Bauldry
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 00:44:00 -
[394] - Quote
Theron Urian wrote:many countries have equivalent if not highly superior minimum wage compared to America, yes some do have lower but I was going by what is called an average, do you know what that is?
Apparently my country does not have that kind of minimal wage.
Did check again with converting currencies, with the part time job I had could not pay for two plex while having been at work for 12 hours (ignoring travel time constraints).
Can we move on please and get back to internet spaceships? |
TrouNoir
Love From Above
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 02:22:00 -
[395] - Quote
I agree.
I know I'm a little slow on the uptake here, but I've been doing Incursions for a while, and I've only just done a mission today since the patch.
So, after the AI update the playstyle that I have skilled for is no longer viable. Only about a month ago I reached my goal of a Rattlesnake with maxed drone skills for doing missions, and now that the patch is out using heavy drones at range is now unfeasible.
The new AI doesn't provide any kind of new challenge, it just forces me to recall drones every couple of minutes, losing time during their transit and usually losing one or two drones, as even with max drone skills heavies don't move fast enough to get back before being killed. For drones that cost around 1,000,000isk each, losing 5 or 6 can halve your profits.
I've never had an issue with nerfs and balance in the past, but this time the ship and drones I have skilled for have been rendered almost useless for the purpose I trained them for. I have 6 million skillpoints in Drones that are now wasted. I 5'd all my drone support skills just for heavies because I enjoy using them, and now that's just wasted time, of course I wouldn't have trained a Rattlesnake if I didn't like drones, so that's another month or so of training time down the drain.
I've also lost quite a bit of Standing, since to complete the missions I accepted I would need to buy a new ship.
I do Incursions for money, I don't AFK in IVs, and wouldn't dare to in a Pirate Battleship, I do them for fun, or when I can't find an Incursion fleet. I can still PLEX and I'm not really losing money, since I can just do Incursions, but it's a real pain to have a few million skill points wasted.
If there were some counter-balance, it would be ok, maybe if the drones were made harder to hit, but no, in a split second ten Battleships can switch to them and they're down to hull in seconds. It's also now very unwise to bring along lower skilled Corpmates to get them standing and some money, meaning the IRL friend I've been training is now limited to Is and IIs until he can grind standing.
I think it's a very ill-advised patch that has sucked a lot of the fun out of the game for me and my friends, in what I feel is a very unfair way. One of the things I like about EVE is that it's Darwinian, I'm not a total carebear, I do PvP roams regularly and I spent some time in a nullsec Alliance (although 0.0 was a little hectic for my taste), however unless CCP lets me redistribute all my wasted skillpoints, all this has done is waste a lot of my time. If this had been done a year ago it would have cut off my cash flow entirely.
Sure I can just not use heavies and not do missions anymore, and sell my Rattlesnake, but I enjoyed playing with them and I can't get that wasted training time back. |
Jullliana
Keepers of the Abyss High Rollers
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 02:50:00 -
[396] - Quote
I bought a gallente toon a bit ago. I logged him in and used a myrmidon.
The guns were useless cause of tracking disruption. The drones were also useless cause they got eaten.
So after thinking for 30secs. I switched to a exequer(sp) t2 remote Rep reaches to 66k I launch 5 Federation ( I choose feds,cause they have the most armor buffer.)
I launch them then lock and perma rep them. They cant die, they kill level 1-3 missions. I tried L4s in my T1 logi and his tank is immune to L4 missions but the fed drones cant pop BS rats. At this point ill switch to a ham drake...not sure. Perhaps a talos...not sure.
Anyways a t1 cruiser makes u immune to the AI and also incoming DPS for all missions. (Bear in mind I'm skilled in game as how to negate half incoming Dps without any need for tank or reps. |
Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
184
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 04:47:00 -
[397] - Quote
Jullliana wrote:I bought a gallente toon a bit ago. I logged him in and used a myrmidon.
The guns were useless cause of tracking disruption. The drones were also useless cause they got eaten.
So after thinking for 30secs. I switched to a exequer(sp) t2 remote Rep reaches to 66k I launch 5 Federation ( I choose feds,cause they have the most armor buffer.)
I launch them then lock and perma rep them. They cant die, they kill level 1-3 missions. I tried L4s in my T1 logi and his tank is immune to L4 missions but the fed drones cant pop BS rats. At this point ill switch to a ham drake...not sure. Perhaps a talos...not sure.
Anyways a t1 cruiser makes u immune to the AI and also incoming DPS for all missions. (Bear in mind I'm skilled in game as how to negate half incoming Dps without any need for tank or reps. CCP only needs to do one thing:
1. Drones of all sizes are not agressed by mission / belt / complex AI.
That's it, problem solved.
So if you are jammed, tracking disrupted or sensor disrupted you use drones as counter. |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
383
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 06:52:00 -
[398] - Quote
Spc One wrote:CCP only needs to do one thing:
1. Drones of all sizes are not agressed by mission / belt / complex AI.
That's it, problem solved.
So if you are jammed, tracking disrupted or sensor disrupted you use drones as counter. Basically, you are suggesting reverting the change. Which you know probably won't happen. |
Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
185
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 07:02:00 -
[399] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Spc One wrote:CCP only needs to do one thing:
1. Drones of all sizes are not agressed by mission / belt / complex AI.
That's it, problem solved.
So if you are jammed, tracking disrupted or sensor disrupted you use drones as counter. Basically, you are suggesting reverting the change. Which you know probably won't happen. NPC's can still switch aggro between players. So if there are two players that are doing a mission for example npc's will still switch aggro to players, just leave drones alone.
|
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
90
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 09:26:00 -
[400] - Quote
Illusive Wolf wrote:Make PvE more like PvP... Fine. When was the last time all the frigs in a -A- fleet decided they would shoot my hobgoblins?
Dude like never. They mite get smart bombed at some point but all the frigs in the fleet primary on light scout drones never. Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here. |
|
Mund Richard
282
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 13:56:00 -
[401] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Spc One wrote:CCP only needs to do one thing:
1. Drones of all sizes are not agressed by mission / belt / complex AI.
That's it, problem solved.
So if you are jammed, tracking disrupted or sensor disrupted you use drones as counter. Basically, you are suggesting reverting the change. Which you know probably won't happen. In fact, it would make afk soloing even easier, since not even new waves should go after drones.
"Which you know probably won't happen." Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1020
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 14:18:00 -
[402] - Quote
TrouNoir wrote: So, after the AI update the playstyle that I have skilled for is no longer viable. Only about a month ago I reached my goal of a Rattlesnake with maxed drone skills for doing missions, and now that the patch is out using heavy drones at range is now unfeasible.
Sure I can just not use heavies and not do missions anymore, and sell my Rattlesnake, but I enjoyed playing with them and I can't get that wasted training time back.
To be honest, there's no reason to use heavies with a rattlesnake. Sentries are the prime dps. In my mission rattlesnake, i carry a set of hob2s, then a set of therm, kinetic and EM sentries. I haven't come across any mission that I can't complete with that set up.
|
Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
185
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 14:59:00 -
[403] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote: In fact, it would make afk soloing even easier,
Then remove drones completely if they're such pain in the ass. If drones were designed that way so you can do stuff while afk let it be.
|
Mund Richard
282
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 15:37:00 -
[404] - Quote
Spc One wrote:Mund Richard wrote:In fact, it would make afk soloing even easier, Then remove drones completely if they're such pain in the ass. If drones were designed that way so you can do stuff while afk let it be. Well, there are few people who do not agree that SOMETHING needs to be done with drones, and probably that something is a lot of things.
To anyone wishing to say otherwise, I ask: What is a Praetor? Using google counts as cheating.
Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 16:45:00 -
[405] - Quote
The problem right now is that drones appear to be something CCP wants to make a consumable, like missiles for missioning purposes.
But they are a built in weapon system with limited capacity that makes them PART of their mothership. 2 things need to change if this is to be the new order of things:
1. Drone cost, this will have to be brought down to closer to where missiles are, not necessarily as low since they are not "theoretically" dead the first time they are launched, but under this new system their odds of survival are historically low now.
2. We need to be able to carry compliments of them similar to missiles, so their stored size will need to be significantly reduced, as well as have the ability to load more drones from our storage to our drone bays in space. A rattlesnake or domi without surviving drones is one in dire straits.
If these two problems were addressed almost no one here would have a problem with losing drones at an alarming rate, as long as the cost of losing them was in line with the cost of what a Tengu uses in missiles for the same mission.
If this is not the intention of CCP then I believe that the next best solution is to do what the majority is demanding, set back drones to not be agro switched to ONCE they have established agro on at least 1 player ship. Meaning they can agro drones when a wave spawns etc. so you have to pay some attention, but not when they "should be" being utilized as a combat mechanic.
Right now my Domi and Rattlesnake are on standby because the cost of using them is greater than the use of other vessels. Likewise I am also using a Tengu for exploration again instead of my (Icursus? The T2 frigate that looks like a Jousting frog with the big drone bonus.) My frigate is more fun to fly but cost of resupply on drones especially on what is sometimes a income neutral/opportunity cost negative venture already.
I just thought it would be prudent for me to weigh in on this as well as everyone else who has contributed to this 20 page long THREADNAUGHT. I encourage those of you reading who have not posted to also make a quick way in with a post to say that this is something that is also important to you.
ALSO.... this needs to be dealt with post haste in some fashion as well because it appears that more and more races are getting drone heavy systems (see amarr ships and new plans for the Prophecy.) |
Mund Richard
282
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 18:12:00 -
[406] - Quote
Bedlin wrote:Right now my Domi and Rattlesnake are on standby because the cost of using them is greater than the use of other vessels. Likewise I am also using a Tengu for exploration again instead of my (Icursus? The T2 frigate that looks like a Jousting frog with the big drone bonus.) Truth be told, the Rattlesnake still works, if you find a way for it.
Training a toon for it as we speak.
Things I'm skipping learning: 1) Drone navigation - Since I'll be using immobile sentries 2) Combat Drone Operation - Since I'll be using sentries 3) Heavy Drone Operation - Since I'll be using sentries 4-7) Racial Drone Specializations - Since I'll be using sentries
And my only losses are T2 Drone Link, and the inferior scout drones (frigate rats get sniped off at range, or picked off by someone else).
Ensuming gameplay ensumed. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Call Rollard
Grim Determination Academy Nulli Tertius
20
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 19:18:00 -
[407] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Bedlin wrote:Right now my Domi and Rattlesnake are on standby because the cost of using them is greater than the use of other vessels. Likewise I am also using a Tengu for exploration again instead of my (Icursus? The T2 frigate that looks like a Jousting frog with the big drone bonus.) Truth be told, the Domi and Rattlesnake (prolly Ishtar as well) still works, if you find "a way" for it. Training a toon for it as we speak. Things I'm skipping learning: 1) Drone navigation - Since I'll be using immobile sentries 2) Combat Drone Operation - Since I'll be using sentries 3) Heavy Drone Operation - Since I'll be using sentries 4-7) Racial Drone Specializations - Since I'll be using sentries And my only losses are T2 Drone Link, and the inferior scout drones (frigate rats get sniped off at range, or picked off by someone else anyways). Emergent gameplay ensumed.
It looks time I just wasted days of training
Whats the point of these moving drones now if they just die if we move them away from us? |
Mund Richard
282
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 19:29:00 -
[408] - Quote
Call Rollard wrote:It looks time I just wasted days of training Whats the point of these moving drones now if they just die if we move them away from us? Light scouts still make sense, as they are "only" targeted by elite cruisers and frigs (which is still enough for shaBLAMs if you fly solo in a crowded L4), and some battleships desperately need them to get rid of scramblers (or just plainly to get rid of frig rats).
Heavies... Are awesome - or so I've heard - for PvP at point blank range against a webbed+scrammed battleship, and maybe against in-your-face serpentis/angel rats as well.
Mediums... well, they cost twice the bay/bandwidth than lights, are slower, track worse, their resolution is cruiser-sized, but their damage ain't twice of the lights, sooo... they are better against battleships if you don't have a 125 bay? Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 19:54:00 -
[409] - Quote
So what your saying Mund is that other than light drones, sentries, and Heavies in a very narrow, functionality windows are broken in a different way; additionally that they cannot be used effectively in their current form and that the targeting of these larger drone types just further exacerbates this problem?
After current form above read.... due to your description mediums, "Mediums... well, they cost twice the bay/bandwidth than lights, are slower, track worse, their resolution is cruiser-sized, but their damage ain't twice of the lights."
Could you please provide some advice to help alleviate these problems and make them more useful? What would you like to see, them moved down to frigate size or better damage? Or would you do something else that would give them better functionality in this new age of drone murderfest.
Would you say that as it stands now, your ships should field either sentries or light drones that stay very close to your ship and deal with frigates, otherwise your additional bandwidth means nothing because you have stated mediums are lacking and heavies were always a disappointment. (I agree with you profusely on these points and I never bothered to train T2 heavies, since T2 mediums did the same job and were fast enough to get back for warpout/ new spawn and the heavies never were.)
I appreciate your input. |
Mund Richard
282
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 20:44:00 -
[410] - Quote
Bedlin wrote:So what your saying Mund is that other than light drones, sentries, and Heavies in a very narrow, functionality windows are broken in a different way; additionally that they cannot be used effectively in their current form and that the targeting of these larger drone types just further exacerbates this problem?
After current form above read.... due to your description mediums, "Mediums... well, they cost twice the bay/bandwidth than lights, are slower, track worse, their resolution is cruiser-sized, but their damage ain't twice of the lights."
Could you please provide some advice to help alleviate these problems and make them more useful? What would you like to see, them moved down to frigate size or better damage? Or would you do something else that would give them better functionality in this new age of drone murderfest.
Would you say that as it stands now, your ships should field either sentries or light drones that stay very close to your ship and deal with frigates, otherwise your additional bandwidth means nothing because you have stated mediums are lacking and heavies were always a disappointment. (I agree with you profusely on these points and I never bothered to train T2 heavies, since T2 mediums did the same job and were fast enough to get back for warpout/ new spawn and the heavies never were.)
I appreciate your input. Wow, that's a tall order.
Plus it's off-topic, as Caldari Citizen 20M+ already pointed it out to me once.
On a sidenote: I don't say my ships should field sentries or lights for PvE, I'm saying they DO (with the added ECM drones for PvP emergencies).
First Heavies: The problem is that they are basically Neutron Blasters with battleship speed. Ogres cannot catch even a shield-tanked MWDing BS, not to mention anything below, which is a problem for the Vexor/Prophecy/Myrm and should rather be looked at on the hull's level (since their whole build is with Heavies in mind). But I think unless some radical drone overhaul makes changes needed, besides maybe a bit of speed/tracking boost having only a niche role is sortof fine-ish for them.
Now mediums... Once more, working best against scrammed targets, and hit hardest maybe by the AI change. What would fix them? All rats going after them but battleships is fair truth be told, even if their survivability is lacking. If they were to get a damage boost, unless Ogres get the same, it would lead to issues, not to mention drone balance going awry with or without Ogres in the picture. If Hobgoblins get a damage nerf, they'll have even more trouble cracking elite frigs, not to mention the effect on PvP.
Bedlin wrote:So what your saying Mund is that other than light drones, sentries, and Heavies in a very narrow, functionality windows are broken in a different way; additionally that they cannot be used effectively in their current form and that the targeting of these larger drone types just further exacerbates this problem? I guess I am. Or rather, as far as PvE goes, our way of thinking about them is somewhat flawed, or outdated by the changes perhaps
We used to think of them as stuff that can go out to 60km range if need be, but... They are kindof like a support vessel helping in a mission? Each combat drone performs somewhat like a blaster of the appropriate size, so a full flight = a full ship. Ogres do more than a T2 antimatter blaster, but without the 13km falloff (*wink wink nudge nudge*). Though battleships have more guns (6-8) than heavy drones (2-5). Hammerheads do only two-third of a Heavy Neutron blaster (which is the medium sized one ), however cruisers have less hardpoints than battleships. BCs mess things up, drone BCs even more with the odd bandwidths. Hobgoblins do less than tho-third of a Light Blaster, and apart from dessies 3 guns are at the top, and besides it's larger ships we focus on from PvE perspective mostly, so 5 of them is a LOT.
I know I wanted to get somewhere with this, but it's an offtopic rant now proving that yes, medium/heavy drones have only a use of window while light/sentries are fine, without offering much help due to various restraining reasons that would turn any easy "fix" I could offer into a nightmare.
Drones being immune to NPC scramble and web (or just make that full EWAR), and not getting any MWD sigbloom would help the larger combat drones, but I'm not sure if that would be only a start, or a solution.
Another thing worth noting is how I always used the Gallente drones as example, if we are at the drones need fixing topic, my favorite "What is a Praetor?" question pops up, fixing needs to be done in that direction as well. Someone mentioned making the differences more like that of fighters, on which I'm not quite sure, but it sounds interesting at least, and a start for a discussion. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
|
Mund Richard
282
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 20:52:00 -
[411] - Quote
So... one thing I'm getting at is basically:
What are (combat) drones SUPPOSED to be able to do in PvE, and how?
Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 21:01:00 -
[412] - Quote
Afraid I can add little to what you said, due to it being correct, except to nitpick one little thing that I am sure you thought of but went ahead and said anyway.
Making the heavies immune to webbing would be a major boost and give them a shadow of a hope of getting back to you after snagging agro, but it would also make them viable/dangerous in pvp (not terribly so due to the reasons already covered but still something to consider)
The most logical fix I could come up with I posted about decreasing the prices of the drones horrendously and using them like missiles.
But now you have brought up other points that make me think another solution that might need to be tackled as well is in each drone catagory scale their damage accordingly, while you are fixing them anyway.
(Or of course the other thing people are asking for don't let the NPC mission or exploration ships turn on them.)
Additionally: I have used Gallente drones, and Warrior IIs, and the Occasional Bouncer Sentries. Oh oh and ECM drones, and a wide assortment of shield and armor repair drones. And at one time I used to use 4 heavies and a webber drone trying to make the heavies useful :-( But the other drones (not counting the other sentries from time to time) the other lights and mediums suffer from the wrong damage types or damage projection issues to be useful... in my opinion.
Unfortunately if a Gallente Light drone can't do it then you have a problem.... but that is a sad state since many ships obviously are designed to have a much better compliment of drone damage. But right now they are in a bad place.
|
Mund Richard
282
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 21:05:00 -
[413] - Quote
Bedlin wrote:Afraid I can add little to what you said, due to it being correct, except to nitpick one little thing that I am sure you thought of but went ahead and said anyway.
Making the heavies immune to webbing would be a major boost and give them a shadow of a hope of getting back to you after snagging agro, but it would also make them viable/dangerous in pvp (not terribly so due to the reasons already covered but still something to consider) I did say NPC EWAR. Immunity could be just a script that checks if the target is a player ship or not. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 21:08:00 -
[414] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Bedlin wrote:Afraid I can add little to what you said, due to it being correct, except to nitpick one little thing that I am sure you thought of but went ahead and said anyway.
Making the heavies immune to webbing would be a major boost and give them a shadow of a hope of getting back to you after snagging agro, but it would also make them viable/dangerous in pvp (not terribly so due to the reasons already covered but still something to consider) I did say NPC EWAR. Immunity could be just a script that checks if the target is a player ship or not.
I am pretty sure CCP has a reasonably strict policy against making a mechanic work differently on an NPC vs a player. They are actively working right now to simplify down their code as evidenced by the large work unifying and redoing the crime watch systems. It is unlikely they would add in a if then, else in the code to cover mission and exploration NPCs. More likely they will either do it across the board or search for a different solution. |
Mund Richard
283
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 21:34:00 -
[415] - Quote
Bedlin wrote:Mund Richard wrote:I did say NPC EWAR. Immunity could be just a script that checks if the target is a player ship or not. I am pretty sure CCP has a reasonably strict policy against making a mechanic work differently on an NPC vs a player. They are actively working right now to simplify down their code as evidenced by the large work unifying and redoing the crime watch systems. It is unlikely they would add in a if then, else in the code to cover mission and exploration NPCs. More likely they will either do it across the board or search for a different solution. Not quite understanding what you mean by that strict policy.
In one direction: Zor is immune to all EWAR effects for instance. In the other: NPC EWAR and weapons, heck cap works quite differently from that of player's, such as unnerfed citadel cruise, torps or webs...
Also, light drones are strictly not engaged except elite cruisers/frigs, and so on. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1026
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 21:48:00 -
[416] - Quote
I think there are a few things they could do to help out drones:
Increase their base speed/tracking so they don't move using MWD. That's what really hurts them when they get aggro.
If a drone has aggro from a rat, other rats pick a different drone, or stick to the ship. The main problem comes when 5 or 6 rats all switch to one drone. If you're not paying attention, you'll eventually lose them all.
A more substantial increase in HP and resists for T2/faction drones wouldn't hurt.
|
Mund Richard
283
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 21:51:00 -
[417] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:If a drone has aggro from a rat, other rats pick a different drone, or stick to the ship. The main problem comes when 5 or 6 rats all switch to one drone. If you're not paying attention, you'll eventually lose them all. Really? My impression was that the whole room (or at least the same size rats) tends to snap to the same target quite often. Which, if a drone...
Or is that a suggestion as a fix?
Come to think of it, i remember two instances, where multiple drones were shot at, while many when only one. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1026
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 21:54:00 -
[418] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Rengerel en Distel wrote:If a drone has aggro from a rat, other rats pick a different drone, or stick to the ship. The main problem comes when 5 or 6 rats all switch to one drone. If you're not paying attention, you'll eventually lose them all. Really? My impression was that the whole room (or at least the same size rats) tends to snap to the same target quite often. Which, if a drone... Or is that a suggestion as a fix? Come to think of it, i remember two instances, where multiple drones were shot at, while many when only one.
Was the first line of my post really only visible to me? :P
|
Mund Richard
283
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 22:00:00 -
[419] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:Was the first line of my post really only visible to me? :P Edited my post before your second one tbh.
I blame lack of sleep. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 22:01:00 -
[420] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Bedlin wrote:Mund Richard wrote:I did say NPC EWAR. Immunity could be just a script that checks if the target is a player ship or not. I am pretty sure CCP has a reasonably strict policy against making a mechanic work differently on an NPC vs a player. They are actively working right now to simplify down their code as evidenced by the large work unifying and redoing the crime watch systems. It is unlikely they would add in a if then, else in the code to cover mission and exploration NPCs. More likely they will either do it across the board or search for a different solution. Not quite understanding what you mean by that strict policy. In one direction: Zor is immune to all EWAR effects for instance. In the other: NPC EWAR and weapons, heck cap works quite differently from that of player's, such as unnerfed citadel cruise, torps or webs... Also, light drones are strictly not engaged except elite cruisers/frigs, and so on.
Allow me to clarify, they don't have any trouble allowing the NPCs do do horrible horrible (stasis tower) things to us from 100km... but they seem to shy away from introducing mechanics that allow our skills to operate differently on the NPCs. (by design)
The reason the cap drains and energy neuts etc. do not work properly on them is because they were designed very differently than player ships. I don't want to name any other games but in some games NPC characters can cast spells without having a mana pool, because they were set up in their data objects to be able to do that, I theorize thats how the eve NPCs are, they can use their attacks but don't have any capacitor to drain.
When they change something they try to do it across the board and when they see its going to create a problem say... in an exploration site with a certain ship they may make a change as simple as adding your ship type on a restriction list for a gate to go in.
I know this wasn't the best description, as I can't think of a specific case off the top of my head if anyone here can volunteer a specific case I would appreciate it, but it got us a bit off topic already anyway...
So drones... need.... help... discuss. |
|
Mund Richard
283
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 22:05:00 -
[421] - Quote
Bedlin wrote: Allow me to clarify, they don't have any trouble allowing the NPCs do do horrible horrible (stasis tower) things to us from 100km... but they seem to shy away from introducing mechanics that allow our skills to operate differently on the NPCs. (by design)
Does not quite clarify still.
But as said a post ago, I'm sleepy, might be something I am missing.
I'm not talking about skills, or even modules, but NPC targeting preferences. Mainly: non-elite rats are not allowed to target small drones.
My suggestion: Rat EWAR not allowed to target any drones.
I don't quite see what's the difference between hard-coding total target preferences, and EWAR target preferences.
Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 22:14:00 -
[422] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote: Does not quite clarify still.
But as said a post ago, I'm sleepy, might be something I am missing.
I'm not talking about skills, or even modules, but NPC targeting preferences. Mainly: non-elite rats are not allowed to target small drones.
My suggestion: Rat EWAR not allowed to target any drones.
I don't quite see what's the difference between hard-coding total target preferences, and EWAR target preferences.
Okay you are STATING: "NPC Frigate 1: "I can shoot his drone if I want to, but I am going to keep my web/target painter on that big Dominix"
I didn't understand that was what you were going for... yes that does seem like that would HELP the situation, but it won't fix the problems. I do like it as a start though. |
TheMeanPerson
United Brothers Of Eve Catastrophic Uprising
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 21:13:00 -
[423] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, here is an update on our earlier post. NPC Tracking disruptor update:After looking at this thread feedback this issue has been reopened internally (we thought it fixed a few weeks back). No promises on a resolution yet but we are currently looking into this. A bit of further explanation on our previous post as well, since there has been quite some conversation about it:EVE PvE systems, mainly mission running, are terribly outdated and are due for a change. Exactly how and when is not something we can state on the paper, but we had having several internal discussions on how this could be done. One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter. NPC bounties could be merged, or moved on progressive secondary objectives that require more and more skill from the player to achieve, while possibly having more risk. For instance, saving the Damsel could pay less or the same than it does today, but you could get extra rewards for completing special, more difficult objectives like rescuing her in a specific period of time, or blowing the evil Zor up before he runs away with her sister in his ship cargohold. Keep in mind this remain just an theoretical idea though that is most likely going to change if and when we start work on this particular point. Reducing NPC numbers also allows us to better scale EW player faces on a regular basis (mainly, we are referring to missions like the Blockade here). Assigning strong EW effects to few NPCs is fine, but it becomes horribly frustrating when faced with 5 full waves of NPCs sensor dampening you, as there is little the player can do to counter it. We should be relying on gameplay players can overcome if they are smart instead of brute force mechanics. Why are we considering changing PvE like this? That is because we are running missions and PvE content ourselves, and we are not particularly fond of the stale state PvE is in EVE Online right now, except for the most recent content (Incursions and Wormholes). Missions and exploration should let players gamble with risk if they feel up to it. While people looking for quick and relaxing content should still be able to do so, we also want players to find excitement from accomplishing missions and feel great about it. You should not be forced to shoot the same dull and repetitive encounters if you donGÇÖt feel up to it. It is a tricky thing to achieve though, as it does not mean we want you to lose ships every mission either. This would also be done to put mission runners more on an equal footing with hostile players when moving into hazardous space. People accomplishing missions in low-security or null-security space should not be at a disadvantage when engaged by other players because they have ship fittings tailored to fight NPCs. Ideally, battling NPCs should teach players how PvP works, how to defend and be better prepared about it should they choose to move into dangerous areas. We often hear "EVE is a PvP game, PvE is secondary". To this we would like to respond that EVE is a sandbox and shouldnGÇÖt necessarily favor one side over the other. What you do with it is up to you: all player activities should feel as appealing and rewarding no matter which choice you take, as long as you are willing to live up with the consequences of your actions. You are murdering our drone ships!We are aware of the recent changes brought by the NPC AI. As said in our previous post, the first NPC behavior deployed for Retribution was too extreme and has been corrected. However, we are aware that drone ships are receiving the short end of the stick here and have been ignored for quite a bit. This is especially valid since as the tiericide initiative continues, we are adding more drone hulls, but not looking at the drone mechanics themselves, which do need much love. Again, while we are not in a position to state how or when such revamp will happen, this definitely is on our to-do list not only to rebalance drones in general, but also update their behavior, improve their handling through the UI and finally add more combat options for players choosing to specialize in such gameplay. The need for such drone rebalance will only grow with time as we keep on rebalancing ships, so we do hope this can be done as soon as humanly possible. Oops, now I've written a wall of text Well anyway, we hope this do help a bit.
Wouldnt blowing up Zor then blow up her sister in the cargohold... (TRROLLFACEE))
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BuckBoomBoom
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 23:29:00 -
[424] - Quote
Can't believe I wasted time, money on SP for skills that I would have used a bit different if I would known just 2 months ago that CCP was thinking about doing this crap. Give me my sp back. I just don't get how they can just make a change like this and then leave it and say Oh btw guys were working on it! Go screw around with the big power blocks and there isk'ies like this I dare you. pffft Sometimes just reading about EVE and playing with eve fitting is just better than playing EVE. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
164
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 23:49:00 -
[425] - Quote
Cleaned this thread a bit.
7. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is the word used to describe a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players. Posts of this nature are disruptive and do not contribute to the sense of community we want for our forums.
29. Personal attacks and abuse of CCP staff.
There has been a worrying trend of increased personal attacks on developers on our own forums as of late, this will not be tolerated. Our forums are an area for players to exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who abuse staff will receive a permanent forum ban across all of their accounts which will not be subject to review at any time.
Please keep this thread civil, polite and on topic.
ISD Ezwal Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
steffijade d'vaper
DBCI C0LD Fusion
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 12:20:00 -
[426] - Quote
Please forgive me if this sounds like a stupid question, but why does CCP feel the need to constantly change aspects of the game anyway?
If something works, why tinker with it and risk damaging it? From what I can gather, the changes discussed in this thread have upset quite a few players and if a lot of those players choose to leave, then it seems kind of counter productive to change things constantly.
Could I preface the following by saying that I don't intend any offence... but, are all these changes just a means for staff at CCP to justify their jobs?
I have no idea how many people are employed by CCP but I should think that most of them are passionate about their own areas of expertise and enjoy their jobs. I suppose it's understandable then, that they want to contribute and bring positive influences to the game. But... if these changes actually have what players deem to be detrimental effects on the game, isn't CCP in danger of killing the goose that laid the golden egg?
I'm no computer programmer, so I'm not qualified to comment on the difficulties/intricacies of adding/altering code other than to say that it appears to sometimes have unforseen consequences.
Perhaps taking a foot off the gas pedal when it comes to changes might be a healthier approach? |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
225
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 13:37:00 -
[427] - Quote
steffijade d'vaper wrote: Perhaps taking a foot off the gas pedal when it comes to changes might be a healthier approach?
Exactly. CCP didn't test enough or did not test at all the last NPC AI. We all know the result.
I wonder why they rush every time they make something new. The game is filled with bugs which is a consequence of their rushing.
I wish they make a bug-fixing dedicated expansion aka patch, and only after that make new things.
Whatever. |
Signal11th
Against ALL Anomalies
871
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 16:09:00 -
[428] - Quote
steffijade d'vaper wrote:Please forgive me if this sounds like a stupid question, but why does CCP feel the need to constantly change aspects of the game anyway?
Because certain groups of players have more clout than others and if something they don't like stops them from doing a certain thing they hog the forums and complain until CCP change basically because they prefer the quiet life.
Then there are the lackies on the CSM who tell CCP this is damaging gameplay and it need changing. What you need to do is to make CCP believe that the change in drone aggro from the NPC's will cause 0.0 players grief or will enable 0.0 to gank miners even quicker. Then will get changed within 2 weeks.
God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster. |
Mund Richard
284
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 16:14:00 -
[429] - Quote
Signal11th wrote:What you need to do is to make CCP believe that the change in drone aggro from the NPC's will cause 0.0 players grief *sigh*
It does.
Unless they are moon goo miners or something. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Signal11th
Against ALL Anomalies
872
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 16:18:00 -
[430] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Signal11th wrote:What you need to do is to make CCP believe that the change in drone aggro from the NPC's will cause 0.0 players grief *sigh* It does. Unless they are moon goo miners or something.
How so exactly? I spend lots of time ratting in 0.0 and all it had made me do is remember:
HUB
2 waves leave out next wave pull in, 2 waves leave out 1 wave pull in last wave leave out. That is the only "grief" it has caused me. If you are moaning and you are in 0.0 it's because you want to afk it.
God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster. |
|
Mund Richard
284
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 17:02:00 -
[431] - Quote
Signal11th wrote:If you are moaning and you are in 0.0 it's because you want to afk it. Not really.
It affects escalations, and ratter-hunters (which I personally never did, never liked, but accepted as a fact).
In fact, back in October or so CCP FoxFour acknowledged the PvP implications for Null, and promised to see to it. Not that I mind that it's not coming Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Pookie McPook
The Whiskers of Kurvi-Tasch
21
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 17:11:00 -
[432] - Quote
Just back after six months aways and all I can say is I'm glad I'm not Gallente or else missioning in Serpentis or Blood Raider space.
Running level 4 missions in a Machariel (since they nerfed loot drops and introduced metal scraps) used to make ISK farming using that method just about worthwhile. It was a viable means of feeding whatever else you got up to in EVE.
Now the added time required to complete missions, and the fairly regular cost of replacing the odd T2 drone, makes it fairly unattractive. Mining is actually probably more profitable on an ISK/hour basis.
I think CCP need to look into the tweaked npc ai question and either totally revamp missions or else make drones a little less attractive to the red guys. The knock on effect to the game of reduced missioning is not going to lead to good things further on down the road. I can't see the changes resulting in a significant increase in players teaming up unless the loot drops are improved. They are more likely just going to lead to more solo/afk mining.
I would reiterate that the majority of veteran players undertake missioning to subsidise their preferred playstyle not as a means to an end. If that income stream becomes less appealing then the game may ultimately suffer. |
Luc Chastot
Moira. Villore Accords
184
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 20:22:00 -
[433] - Quote
Domi with MJD and sentries: even if the rats target your drones, they are so far away that they will never get hit. I whined about the change, but then adapted and started using a MJD with my sentry navy domi, lvl 4s are incredibly easy. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
Sin Koraka
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 22:32:00 -
[434] - Quote
I adapted to my L5's by cancelling payment on 2 accounts. Works well for me. |
MeeKai
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 23:05:00 -
[435] - Quote
Signed, fix this ridiculous attempt at game balancing.
|
Flying Apocalypse
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 06:13:00 -
[436] - Quote
Altho I at the moment have thoughts going both ways, sometimes you just lose 5 drones before even noticing it(for example when zoomed in looking at them pretty lazors) when you only looked away for 20 secs, and that just sucks. But it also isn't as game breaking anymore for me personally, I just don't deploy them until frigates are within 10km or only battleships remain.
The main problem for me is the rat EWAR that is stupidly overpowerd currently.
edit: And in an unrelated note: Rogue Drone lvl 4 missions are useless, you make close to no isk with em so not worth bothering doing em. :| For some reason I can't delete my signature o.o |
Stein Backstabber
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
11
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 07:40:00 -
[437] - Quote
This seems like an apt thread to mention the inexplicable and unbelievable hate rats now seem to harbor for tractor beams.
I had an entire room, from the frigs to the BS switch target to a tractor beam user within moments of it getting switched on.
Mind. Boggling. |
Pookie McPook
The Whiskers of Kurvi-Tasch
23
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 10:28:00 -
[438] - Quote
I toyed with a MJD on my Maelstrom arty boat which fixed the issue to a degree. I find it peculiar however that CCP introduce this effective drone nerf for PVE so that people are encouraged to band together then shoot the idea in the head by making soloing viable again using MJDs. All that ends up happening is that missioners stop using drones. |
Mund Richard
285
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 12:13:00 -
[439] - Quote
Stein Backstabber wrote:This seems like an apt thread to mention the inexplicable and unbelievable hate rats now seem to harbor for tractor beams.
I had an entire room, from the frigs to the BS switch target to a tractor beam user within moments of it getting switched on.
Mind. Boggling. Tractor Beam, the new taunt module.
Had battleships swap to a frig when there were two other guys (in bigger subcaps -> supposedly better targets) just for being there? Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Stein Backstabber
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
11
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 12:29:00 -
[440] - Quote
I found it interesting as it was reliably reproducable. Up until that time I've been going under the assumption that the target switching was completely random (tests up until that point were giving results pointing to that event).
Don't test it like I did in a noctis though, the whole pocket switching at the same time was more than it could take and it popped in short order |
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Marillio
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 08:16:00 -
[441] - Quote
Hm, looks like thats it on this threat. Loosing couple of players is OK, no commentary about people unhappy with the changes. Some declarations, that the intension was to make it more interesting, no offer of a solution. I would have expected little more from a contact with the "real developers".
So whats left is an unbalanced NPC for making PVE more interesting and the only idea, i found has been: Using the micro jump drive for getting 100k into range and wait, till everything is approaching you.
That doesnt help much, and very disappointing, too.
I will try the ingame support again. I asked in corp, and guys, you can imagine, in Rooks and Kings people have lots of ideas to deal with the game. But only answer is: "Whatfor do you need money, Marillio. Just dont PVE and all is good." |
vice vortex
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
57
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 12:37:00 -
[442] - Quote
CCP PLEASE FIX UR FAULTS AND ENLIGHTEN UR CURRENT CUSTOMERS RATHER THAN WORKING ON PROJECTS FOR NEW CUSTOMERS PLEASE O PLEASE O PLEASE. /// |
Claire Raynor
NovaGear
48
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 14:43:00 -
[443] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, here is an update on our earlier post. One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter.
This would be awesome.
However - NPCs would need to have real CAP - would need to warp away to try and deny a kill - would need to have all the stats and mechanics of a normal ship.
Currently a PvE boatd would not fit Neuts - doesn't need a point - some EWar is irrelevant as it simply will not function against NPCs and some is pointless because there are so many NPCs, (NPC numbers- you have suggested will be reduced).
But the latest changes also take us further from PvP fitted Ships for PvE. We will now be looking at L4 BS's fitting medium guns to counter frigates - and other such things which would be hugely sub-optimal for PvP. (I'm no PvP expert - look at my kill board - but I still have a vague idea of what would be fitted to a PvP ship)
OK.
1) Some people like to grind - I did actually like the old PvE. I knew there would be thousands of badies for me to lay waste to - and I had strategies. On missions where enemies would warp in in waves - I'd need to pay more attention to my drones. Etc Etc. It was comfortable - and fun esspecially to multi-box. It wasn't without merit. If I liked it others will have too. Not to say it couldn't be improved - but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Why not keep these "Battle" missions - just balance them - make drones tougher??? Maybe - less usless - somehow - un-webbable.
2) If there are going to be missions, in the future, that are more like problem solving - high tactics - where you would radically change the fit of your ship from one mission to the next. . . Well why not call these "Adventure" missions for those who might like this style of content. I mean - you are going to have to build these new missions from scratch anyway. So why not add them as a new type of thing? |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
586
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 19:30:00 -
[444] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote: CCP didn't test enough or did not test at all the last NPC AI. We all know the result.
Same thing happened with Incursions which got absolutely crushed especially in lo/null sec with the Escalation nerf. The TD thing reminds me of what happened with OTA sites except what they did to those sites was on purpose so they did not admit that it was an error for 3 months. What you got going for you is that there is an admission of an bug whatyou gotgoing against you is that the old mission code appears to have been written for a certain playstyle now which has been changed & DEVs are looking for some hay in a needle stack
So when is sleeper PvE going to be 'touched' so they can join the ranks of the other PvE's to be nerf hammered? OUR LOGS SHOW NOTHING |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 19:41:00 -
[445] - Quote
Forgive this, not intentionally trolling or ranting and a bit off topic but if you want to talk about things not being tested or understanding how they are used.... the best example was the "inventory system overhaul" that they FINALLY just got back usable recently with opening cans in space again and ship inventory as well and now with persistent and logical windows in the stations again.
(Also see, removed ship spinning debacle)
... back on topic,
The drones were never intended to be targeted unless a spawn got you wrong that's why they are so weak and expensive, that was your check against doing a mission without paying attention to them.
Earlier in this topic I posted what I think would help out and had a discussion with another Gallente about the nature of the problem I would encourage people to refer back to it. I do not think I or We were radically off on what we were saying. (page 20ish?)
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Mund Richard
286
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 23:01:00 -
[446] - Quote
Hmm... That sounds familiar...
Whoops, I've put the reply in a "to-do" list, and my dog ate it (completely forgot about it ).
Bedlin wrote: Okay you are STATING: "NPC Frigate 1: "I can shoot his drone if I want to, but I am going to keep my web/target painter on that big Dominix" I didn't understand that was what you were going for... yes that does seem like that would HELP the situation, but it won't fix the problems. I do like it as a start though. Umm... yea... sure... that was totally what I meant. Nah, it wasn't, but I like your take of it. I don't exactly like how currently drones work as "chaff", stop shooting, release them, scram frigs are off of you, warp out. One reason drones die easy, is that their sig is smaller than a battleship's, so if elite frigs try to choose the smaller hostile entity, and then scram+web it, that drone will never make it back, unless it was really close to scooping range
Rengerel en Distel wrote:If a drone has aggro from a rat, other rats [should] pick a different drone, or stick to the ship. The main problem comes when 5 or 6 rats all switch to one drone. If you're not paying attention, you'll eventually lose them all.
A more substantial increase in HP and resists for T2/faction drones wouldn't hurt. Aaand that's the other one, flying only one ship, I get the full room swap to sentries, and with occasionally 10+ battleship 10+ cruisers, that's enough for one blinking (or mom/significantother agro) to be fatal, even if one manually keeps using the weapons and not only have drones on aggressive go play while afk.
The two suggested fixes combined would help A LOT, and WITHOUT making drones afk-"manageable". You'd still need to look after them, just not watching 5+ bars like a hawk. Question is how much help is needed.
You said my proposal would help, but not fix, I'm curious if the two would be enough to get the situation fairly under control, would only know if we'd try on the test server. And try a lot, a few randomly picked missions with a (somewhat-random?) AI are meaningless. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
14
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 23:19:00 -
[447] - Quote
Well really the purpose of this thread it to have (THE COMPANY) look at it and rethink the issue, they could use some of the ideas here or come up with an even better fix or give up like the original poster wants and roll it back.
It's not my place to see what is the best to fix the issue, but I do hope they are "adamantly concerned and actively looking into it, with hopes to have it fixed "soon"." (Hey devs if you would post in here you can even use my quoted comment there to give us some feedback.) please? really? something?
okay |
Tebb1288
Ion Corp. NightSong Directorate
3
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 23:22:00 -
[448] - Quote
I've stopped missioning since this change. If npcs are going to attack drones then drones need more hp. Even if I recall my drones the second they start getting hurt, I more often than not lose at least one before they make it back to my drone bay.
Drones have become more expensive to use than benefit they give. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
127
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 23:29:00 -
[449] - Quote
Bedlin wrote:Well really the purpose of this thread it to have (THE COMPANY) look at it and rethink the issue, they could use some of the ideas here or come up with an even better fix or give up like the original poster wants and roll it back. It's not my place to see what is the best to fix the issue, but I do hope they are "adamantly concerned and actively looking into it, with hopes to have it fixed "soon"." (Hey devs if you would post in here you can even use my quoted comment there to give us some feedback.) please? really? something? okay
A temporal rollback only would be sufficient, after they completed the PVE revamp and tested it they could update the main servers i think. But my idea is somewhat radical, there are way more better writings in this topic than mine.
|
Baron Dmitri Harkonnen
State War Academy Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 09:55:00 -
[450] - Quote
Lol I started doing level 1 missions on my new character and in the first one The Blockade I was perma jammed. Had to warp out and abandon it after warping back in and trying again to no avail.
|
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Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
90
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 10:54:00 -
[451] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:dexington wrote:Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Onwards to WH space... W-space has similar AI, but you can trying doing lvl 2 missions in a T3 with officer fit, should be a suitable difficulty level. We already found a class 5 WH, were farming them in capitals and I assure you that with the new AI changes this is much more isk/hour efficient and personally i think its easier than a 10/10 ded plex since a triage archon outweights numerous logistics by its own. So basically were doing the same stuff as we need to do in 0.0 space exploration, the only difference that were making more money in less time. And this is WRONG. HIGHer RISK + HARDer CONTENT should be = MORE ISK since the AI update that is NOT TRUE. read the capital letters together.
DED complexs got low sec'd by CCP. hahahaha :)
Sorry to hear that. Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here. |
Flying Apocalypse
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 12:38:00 -
[452] - Quote
Claire Raynor wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, here is an update on our earlier post. One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter.
This would be awesome. However - NPCs would need to have real CAP - would need to warp away to try and deny a kill - would need to have all the stats and mechanics of a normal ship. Currently a PvE boatd would not fit Neuts - doesn't need a point - some EWar is irrelevant as it simply will not function against NPCs and some is pointless because there are so many NPCs, (NPC numbers- you have suggested will be reduced). But the latest changes also take us further from PvP fitted Ships for PvE. We will now be looking at L4 BS's fitting medium guns to counter frigates - and other such things which would be hugely sub-optimal for PvP. (I'm no PvP expert - look at my kill board - but I still have a vague idea of what would be fitted to a PvP ship) OK. 1) Some people like to grind - I did actually like the old PvE. I knew there would be thousands of badies for me to lay waste to - and I had strategies. On missions where enemies would warp in in waves - I'd need to pay more attention to my drones. Etc Etc. It was comfortable - and fun esspecially to multi-box. It wasn't without merit. If I liked it others will have too. Not to say it couldn't be improved - but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Why not keep these "Battle" missions - just balance them - make drones tougher??? Maybe - less usless - somehow - un-webbable. 2) If there are going to be missions, in the future, that are more like problem solving - high tactics - where you would radically change the fit of your ship from one mission to the next. . . Well why not call these "Adventure" missions for those who might like this style of content. I mean - you are going to have to build these new missions from scratch anyway. So why not add them as a new type of thing?
1. I am a person who doesn't mind grinding, Most of my time is spend on school so the few hours a day(sometimes none) are usually spend doing lvl 4's because I can't really be bothered doing anything else. Especially since my skills are still quite bad(focused on paladin pretty much, don't even have 5 drones yet) and will be spending my next few months training skills to be even viable in pvp.
2. If they change all rats stats & numbers etc. etc. I doubt active armor tanking will be viable... active armor tanking is on most ships a very bad idea and will not work. And I doubt I will be running lvl 4 security missions if they will be as badly balanced as I think they will be.(I do like your adventure missions tho, or Advanced Security) not to mention ships that aren't really viable in pvp(Marauders for example) will probaly not be that viable in them either unless they apply tiercide before this breaks loose.
Also let's not forget new people in eve. They would probaly need a substantial increase in skills before even being able to do lvl 3/4's if the AI get's more pvp-like in security missions.
And I really don't mind the drone changes as much anymore, just don't deploy them more than 20km away and they should be able to make it alive(Maybe heavies is another tale tho) and I must say that the aggro switch is a really weird mechanic, in 1 mission I had 4 drones on 1 elite frigate for about 5 mins, and it would not switch to my drones. then when I somehow got out to 15km from him it suddenly switched to my drones and I was able to get close enough to web and kill him. For some reason I can't delete my signature o.o |
L0rdF1end
Mainly AFK Happy Cartel
55
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 16:12:00 -
[453] - Quote
CCP, you still don't get it.
I understand the need for making missioning and ratting a bit more interesting and making it so you can't afk misson/plex/rat.
But these changes are still hruting the soloist PVPers out there. You've crippled our game. I do not expect to be agressed by rats in a belt that I have not agrssed myself.
I want to solo PVP like I was able to before Retribution.
It's hurting a lot of peoples playstyle and as said already in this thread it creates more blobby PVP because you need a small gang to deal with the rats and the target.
Please please consider fixing Rat AI for target priority to the agresser.
Retribution has bought nothing to my game but a bunch of nerfs. I can and will adapt regading PVE but these changes have gone too far.
I actually wish I could rollback my cleint and play pre Retribution. sucky patch, not a happy customer. |
vice vortex
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
66
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 16:18:00 -
[454] - Quote
L0rdF1end wrote:CCP, you still don't get it.
I understand the need for making missioning and ratting a bit more interesting and making it so you can't afk misson/plex/rat.
But these changes are still hruting the soloist PVPers out there. You've crippled our game. I do not expect to be agressed by rats in a belt that I have not agrssed myself.
I want to solo PVP like I was able to before Retribution.
It's hurting a lot of peoples playstyle and as said already in this thread it creates more blobby PVP because you need a small gang to deal with the rats and the target.
Please please consider fixing Rat AI for target priority to the agresser.
Retribution has bought nothing to my game but a bunch of nerfs. I can and will adapt regading PVE but these changes have gone too far.
I actually wish I could rollback my cleint and play pre Retribution. sucky patch, not a happy customer. man that must be really sucky to deal with :( i havnt played long and the whole sandbox idea has wore off very very fast, its almost like they are carving the way we play, what we fly etc :( |
Signal11th
Against ALL Anomalies
875
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 16:22:00 -
[455] - Quote
I must admit it can be quite difficult to micro manage drone aggro whilst also using DSCAN, targeting , moving etc I'm sure CCP envisaged Octopi playing this game not humans. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster. |
amurder Hakomairos
Fellowship Of Lost Souls Rebel Alliance of New Eden
18
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 17:54:00 -
[456] - Quote
L0rdF1end wrote:CCP, you still don't get it.
I understand the need for making missioning and ratting a bit more interesting and making it so you can't afk misson/plex/rat.
But these changes are still hruting the soloist PVPers out there. You've crippled our game. I do not expect to be agressed by rats in a belt that I have not agrssed myself.
I want to solo PVP like I was able to before Retribution.
It's hurting a lot of peoples playstyle and as said already in this thread it creates more blobby PVP because you need a small gang to deal with the rats and the target.
Please please consider fixing Rat AI for target priority to the agresser.
Retribution has bought nothing to my game but a bunch of nerfs. I can and will adapt regading PVE but these changes have gone too far.
I actually wish I could rollback my cleint and play pre Retribution. sucky patch, not a happy customer.
Ok so explain to me why you expect to be able to warp into an belt/anom and not be aggressed by the rats? Lets say you and three corp mates are fleeted and in a belt trying to kill a red. While this is happening a neut warps in to the belt but does not aggress you immediately. Are you and your friends going to wait for that neut to aggress you or are you gonna go blow him up before he has a chance to shoot you. And before you say you would kill the red first lets say he is flying a T1 frig and the neut is in a Tengu. Why should the rat AI behave differently than a human pilot?
The rats changing aggro seems to have something to do with their assessment of the threat level of whoever just warped in. I've been jumped in sites where the rat aggro stays on me even with a new target jumping in. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
210
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 18:27:00 -
[457] - Quote
Signal11th wrote: Now when the rats are being blasted to kingdom come and then someone warps into the site and attacks "their" enemy what do they do....
Do they cheer and wipe their brow praising the heavens (or whatever) that a rescuer has appeared...er no they target the new chap and help kill him and then resume being blasted apart by the orignal aggressors...well done CCP.
if youre tackled in belt by a erd and someone comes to help you, you wouldnt shoot the one coming to help. This is an answer to amurder hakomairos. |
Signal11th
Against ALL Anomalies
876
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 19:28:00 -
[458] - Quote
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:Signal11th wrote: Now when the rats are being blasted to kingdom come and then someone warps into the site and attacks "their" enemy what do they do....
Do they cheer and wipe their brow praising the heavens (or whatever) that a rescuer has appeared...er no they target the new chap and help kill him and then resume being blasted apart by the orignal aggressors...well done CCP. if youre tackled in belt by a erd and someone comes to help you, you wouldnt shoot the one coming to help. This is an answer to amurder hakomairos.
I assume you are agreeing with me as I must admit your post didn't make that much sense to me? God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
210
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 20:24:00 -
[459] - Quote
yes i agree with you, i quoted your writing for an example only. |
PavlikX
You are in da lock
42
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 03:58:00 -
[460] - Quote
For me i am glad that rats have new AI. And highly disappointed that CCP made it highly buged EWAR |
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Sam Korak
Farson Industries
11
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 18:33:00 -
[461] - Quote
Ok you guys know what, I'm with you on this. Make the NPC dumb again please :) |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
14
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 19:10:00 -
[462] - Quote
Sam Korak wrote:Ok you guys know what, I'm with you on this. Make the NPC dumb again please :)
Welcome to the party, glad to have you. Could you please elaborate on what problem you ran into even if it's a repeat and offer any advice you can about correction that doesn't involve a total rollback. (unless that's what you really want.) |
Vas Eldryn
Flying While Intoxicated Apocalypse Now.
3
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 20:30:00 -
[463] - Quote
Bedlin wrote:Sam Korak wrote:Ok you guys know what, I'm with you on this. Make the NPC dumb again please :) Welcome to the party, glad to have you. Could you please elaborate on what problem you ran into even if it's a repeat and offer any advice you can about correction that doesn't involve a total rollback. (unless that's what you really want.)
sign me up for the total roll back, unless they do a total overhual on the missions to mesh with the new AI.
The only good thing about the new AI is it makes it a lot harder on mission ninja looters, watching them trying to steal your loot when every NPC in the mission changes target to them ..... priceless |
Rocket D'ni
x Infected x
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 21:37:00 -
[464] - Quote
Vas Eldryn wrote:Bedlin wrote:Sam Korak wrote:Ok you guys know what, I'm with you on this. Make the NPC dumb again please :) Welcome to the party, glad to have you. Could you please elaborate on what problem you ran into even if it's a repeat and offer any advice you can about correction that doesn't involve a total rollback. (unless that's what you really want.) sign me up for the total roll back, unless they do a total overhual on the missions to mesh with the new AI. The only good thing about the new AI is it makes it a lot harder on mission ninja looters, watching them trying to steal your loot when every NPC in the mission changes target to them ..... priceless
Lol do people actually do this? Ninja looting in your mission?
|
Vas Eldryn
Flying While Intoxicated Apocalypse Now.
3
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 22:01:00 -
[465] - Quote
Rocket D'ni wrote:Vas Eldryn wrote:Bedlin wrote:Sam Korak wrote:Ok you guys know what, I'm with you on this. Make the NPC dumb again please :) Welcome to the party, glad to have you. Could you please elaborate on what problem you ran into even if it's a repeat and offer any advice you can about correction that doesn't involve a total rollback. (unless that's what you really want.) sign me up for the total roll back, unless they do a total overhual on the missions to mesh with the new AI. The only good thing about the new AI is it makes it a lot harder on mission ninja looters, watching them trying to steal your loot when every NPC in the mission changes target to them ..... priceless Lol do people actually do this? Ninja looting in your mission?
It's quite common in the good mission hubs, either ninja looters or griefers looking to flip or steal a misison objective, guess they will now have to fit a decent tank.... or learn some patience and wait till im done. |
vasuul
BLUE M00N Fetish Group Eternus Imperium Alliance
124
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 09:54:00 -
[466] - Quote
Switching aggro to drones should only happen on new spawns of NPC's like it was before constant drone loss severely cuts into the profit margin
And as for making PVE more like PVP NO!!!!!!!!!!!!
PVE is there to make LP and ISK period
if you want to make a new level of mission or new anomalies that will be harder fine by me
But stop blowing holes in my drones either that or give them rig slots so we can improve the tank on drones
I for one like the grind yes i would like new missions too but if people want to PVP they will PVP
if people want to grind they have level 1s though 4s missions
if people want a challenge with a group there are incursions and wormholes and level 5s or they can go to 0.0 and run complexes
QUIT trying to fix what is not broken , drones are a weapon system pure and simple , we can not target someones guns or missile launchers so why are Npc's targeting drones ????????
ROLL it back , then test, then implement way to often CCP acts like the US congress and passes something before thinking of the unintended consequences of that action
Mining is boring but i don't see you adding sensor damps to asteroids or putting gun platforms on the asteroids reason , BECAUSE IT would be stupid as are these drone changes
you want to add to mission content here is an idea 1 how about some escort missions you have to protect the ship from the npc's until it can warp out 2 defense missions defend the star base from waves of npc attacker until reinforcements arrive 3 guard missions you have to safely escort a hauler through three to five dead space acceleration gates and there is a rat spawn at random somewhere in it if the hauler dies the mission is a failure 4 a delivery mission that takes you to a random dead space drop off point , which again has a random spawn or two in it that attacks you for the cargo 5 gank the big ship like a NPC freighter but you got wave of ships coming in to stop you from succeeding many other story ideas for missions to be had if you just think about it
|
Signal11th
Against ALL Anomalies
878
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 10:02:00 -
[467] - Quote
vasuul wrote:Switching aggro to drones should only happen on new spawns of NPC's like it was before constant drone loss severely cuts into the profit margin
And as for making PVE more like PVP NO!!!!!!!!!!!!
PVE is there to make LP and ISK period
if you want to make a new level of mission or new anomalies that will be harder fine by me
But stop blowing holes in my drones either that or give them rig slots so we can improve the tank on drones
I for one like the grind yes i would like new missions too but if people want to PVP they will PVP
if people want to grind they have level 1s though 4s missions
if people want a challenge with a group there are incursions and wormholes and level 5s or they can go to 0.0 and run complexes
QUIT trying to fix what is not broken , drones are a weapon system pure and simple , we can not target someones guns or missile launchers so why are Npc's targeting drones ????????
ROLL it back , then test, then implement way to often CCP acts like the US congress and passes something before thinking of the unintended consequences of that action
Mining is boring but i don't see you adding sensor damps to asteroids or putting gun platforms on the asteroids reason , BECAUSE IT would be stupid as are these drone changes
you want to add to mission content here is an idea 1 how about some escort missions you have to protect the ship from the npc's until it can warp out 2 defense missions defend the star base from waves of npc attacker until reinforcements arrive 3 guard missions you have to safely escort a hauler through three to five dead space acceleration gates and there is a rat spawn at random somewhere in it if the hauler dies the mission is a failure 4 a delivery mission that takes you to a random dead space drop off point , which again has a random spawn or two in it that attacks you for the cargo 5 gank the big ship like a NPC freighter but you got wave of ships coming in to stop you from succeeding many other story ideas for missions to be had if you just think about it
I PVE so I can PVP (albeit badly) If PVE was like PVP why do I need to then PVP? Plus PVE is wind down from PVP. I'm getting to the stage of my life where constant adrenaline rushes are to be considered hazardous to my life. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster. |
Lyndsey Love
True Human Design
20
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 10:08:00 -
[468] - Quote
To be honest I tried the new NPC AI, because I have done lvl 4's long time ago. And it's awful. They ate all my drones in a few mins, and permajammed. So mission running was a boring **** in the old days, and now, it is same boring but more ****. Nice work CCP!
Also my tactic was to run lvl 4 with two accounts, but is it possible now, when NPC's switch targets? Can one ship be the tank and other the damage dealer or this thing is messed up too? |
L0rdF1end
Mainly AFK Happy Cartel
58
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 10:46:00 -
[469] - Quote
10 Years living with the previous AI mechanics means that you grew accustomned to the way in which rats work. You grow your skills to fly the ships to complete a certain task. This growth in skills is to allow you to run higher end missions/plexes. The change now forces you to rethink fittings and now the ability to do what once was possible in some respects is gone.
There was nothing wrong with AI for ten years. If it was such a big deal why not make the changes earlier within the life of Eve.
It basically boils down to, for me personally, not having as much fun as I did pre Retribution. Why would you want to take fun away from a game? |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
233
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 11:02:00 -
[470] - Quote
Lyndsey Love wrote: Also my tactic was to run lvl 4 with two accounts, but is it possible now, when NPC's switch targets? Can one ship be the tank and other the damage dealer or this thing is messed up too?
No, you can't have a Tank and DPS role in missions, anomalies or complexes any more. Where's other games offer the "tank" the skills needed to pull the aggression of the NPC's there is nothing like that in EVE.
You're best with two good tanks and average DPS so whoever takes agro they can tank long enough for another switch in aggression or enough NPCs to be killed to lower incoming DPS.
As for the changes, meh I have just given up hope now. It seems CCP has this grand vision for the future of PVE but I don't see that happening for a long time yet. Could you imagine how many tears there would be if there was a patch to fix PVE and not POS, SOV and all the other flavour of the month complaint threads in GD?
PVE needs work, EVERYONE agrees on that. The reason I left EVE before and one of my biggest complains I have always had about CCP's development is that it seems in CCP's eyes CCP knows best. I thought that this had changed with Crucible and they were starting to realise listening to what their player base wants is the way forward.
This is the groups of PVE players as I see it.
PVE Fun - Those that log into EVE purely to run PVE content for fun, they look for enjoyment and casual play without stress PVE ISK - Those that want to be doing more PVP than PVE but need to fund their PVP with quick simple income. PVE Challenge - Those looking for that on the edge of their seats gameplay without needing to PVP.
CCP seems to think that making everything come under "PVE Challenge" is what the PVE players want. I have time and time again seen "we want our players to have choices" and "choices matter" coming from members of CCP when they're defending changes they make to the game. However it seems that when it comes to the content we have access too choice doesn't matter and we should all be playing the way they want. I will again say this; If CCP want this harder PVE and closer to players AI/Combat then let's bring in a new type of mission/anomaly/complex, there is nothing wrong with tweaking the current systems but don't force PVP style PVE on players who obviously are not looking for PVP style gameplay.
/endrant
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves." |
|
Lyndsey Love
True Human Design
20
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 11:24:00 -
[471] - Quote
Turelus wrote:Lyndsey Love wrote: Also my tactic was to run lvl 4 with two accounts, but is it possible now, when NPC's switch targets? Can one ship be the tank and other the damage dealer or this thing is messed up too?
No, you can't have a Tank and DPS role in missions, anomalies or complexes any more. Where's other games offer the "tank" the skills needed to pull the aggression of the NPC's there is nothing like that in EVE. You're best with two good tanks and average DPS so whoever takes agro they can tank long enough for another switch in aggression or enough NPCs to be killed to lower incoming DPS. As for the changes, meh I have just given up hope now. It seems CCP has this grand vision for the future of PVE but I don't see that happening for a long time yet. Could you imagine how many tears there would be if there was a patch to fix PVE and not POS, SOV and all the other flavour of the month complaint threads in GD? PVE needs work, EVERYONE agrees on that. The reason I left EVE before and one of my biggest complains I have always had about CCP's development is that it seems in CCP's eyes CCP knows best. I thought that this had changed with Crucible and they were starting to realise listening to what their player base wants is the way forward. This is the groups of PVE players as I see it. PVE Fun - Those that log into EVE purely to run PVE content for fun, they look for enjoyment and casual play without stress PVE ISK - Those that want to be doing more PVP than PVE but need to fund their PVP with quick simple income. PVE Challenge - Those looking for that on the edge of their seats gameplay without needing to PVP. CCP seems to think that making everything come under "PVE Challenge" is what the PVE players want. I have time and time again seen "we want our players to have choices" and "choices matter" coming from members of CCP when they're defending changes they make to the game. However it seems that when it comes to the content we have access too choice doesn't matter and we should all be playing the way they want. I will again say this; If CCP want this harder PVE and closer to players AI/Combat then let's bring in a new type of mission/anomaly/complex, there is nothing wrong with tweaking the current systems but don't force PVP style PVE on players who obviously are not looking for PVP style gameplay. /endrant
I don't think this new PVE is harder than the old. It is same easy, but makes me more nervous. Waiting ages to have a chance to lock a ship between the permajam. Waiting for eating up an NPC ship, etc. Nothing hard, just boring. I dont mind if CCP has a vision and they make it, the problem here is they haven't runned missions after and before, and they made a change without playing the game imo. Also in the old times, I had a tank ship who get the aggro, and a dps ship who helped him. It was boring and long, but it was somehow enjoyable. I can't imagine running lvl 4 missions with one account, even if it has a Marauder. It's just too boring. Mining is more interesting and makes more money. Also the other problem: why I make myself pain with lvl 4 missions if i just jump my Mackinaw and mining half-afk for 8 mill ISK / 15 min. And I don't have to salvage and sell crap loot. Ah, the loot is crap too, lol. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
214
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 11:36:00 -
[472] - Quote
Lyndsey Love wrote:To be honest I tried the new NPC AI, because I have done lvl 4's long time ago. And it's awful. They ate all my drones in a few mins, and permajammed. So mission running was a boring **** in the old days, and now, it is same boring but more ****. Nice work CCP!
Also my tactic was to run lvl 4 with two accounts, but is it possible now, when NPC's switch targets? Can one ship be the tank and other the damage dealer or this thing is messed up too?
Its messed up, you need to tank all your ships in order to survive. This is the most annoying part of the new npc ai i think. Now I am considering selling numerous pilots of mine, because in the new system i cant really use them effectively. Ive got 4 active accounts, and im planning to reduce to 2 only. One is my main account and the other is a pvp alt for scouting and faclon/links etc. I think ccp is loosing more out of this than me. |
disturbed Rin
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 15:17:00 -
[473] - Quote
well to keep on topic , i noticed since today that even hob's aren't safe anymoer
just flying normal missions with them yesterday was fine but since today: the moment i attack 1 frig with drones the all aggro on drones! |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
15
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 16:36:00 -
[474] - Quote
disturbed Rin wrote:well to keep on topic , i noticed since today that even hob's aren't safe anymoer
just flying normal missions with them yesterday was fine but since today: the moment i attack 1 frig with drones the all aggro on drones!
I just want to point out from earlier in this thread and from personal observation it appears that the only drones we can use that have any hope of survival (and thus not being a net loss of money) are the Hobgoblin light drones. Even they are in danger if you aren't killing off frigs as fast as you can and get lucky. So.... |
Mund Richard
295
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 17:52:00 -
[475] - Quote
Bedlin wrote:disturbed Rin wrote:well to keep on topic , i noticed since today that even hob's aren't safe anymoer
just flying normal missions with them yesterday was fine but since today: the moment i attack 1 frig with drones the all aggro on drones! I just want to point out from earlier in this thread and from personal observation it appears that the only drones we can use that have any hope of survival (and thus not being a net loss of money) are the Hobgoblin light drones. Even they are in danger if you aren't killing off frigs as fast as you can and get lucky. So.... I almost laughed when there was only one hostile frigate when I released my 5 T2 drones, and one was in hull by the time that one frig died. I almost laughed. Wouldn't had been a laughter of myrth... Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Shadowschild
Black Lance Fidelas Constans
27
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 19:21:00 -
[476] - Quote
The new AI change pretty much kills off t2 heavy drones in favor of sentries. I would like my T2 heavy skill points refunded please. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
966
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 19:28:00 -
[477] - Quote
L0rdF1end wrote:10 Years living with the previous AI mechanics means that you grew accustomned to the way in which rats work. You grow your skills to fly the ships to complete a certain task. This growth in skills is to allow you to run higher end missions/plexes. The change now forces you to rethink fittings and now the ability to do what once was possible in some respects is gone.
There was nothing wrong with AI for ten years. If it was such a big deal why not make the changes earlier within the life of Eve.
It basically boils down to, for me personally, not having as much fun as I did pre Retribution. Why would you want to take fun away from a game?
You have to analyze who "wins" with this nerf of PvE income, particularly high sec mission income. If you consider variable income and static income, the people that hold static income benefit if variable income is slashed, as the static holders will now control a larger slice of the total income pie.
So who controls a static income, something that can be harvested on an ongoing basis, immune to any changes that the devs have made? Then ask yourself, from where do CCP pluck many many devs and game designers, like the ones responsible for these changes? |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
1051
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 03:27:00 -
[478] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: People accomplishing missions in low-security or null-security space should not be at a disadvantage when engaged by other players because they have ship fittings tailored to fight NPCs. Ideally, battling NPCs should teach players how PvP works, how to defend and be better prepared about it should they choose to move into dangerous areas.
You lost me at "people running missions in null-security space," a statement about as clueless as CCP Omen explaining that he expected PVP Corps to let random neuts use their POCOs because, hey, they might make a few isk (at the risk of letting cyno ships run around free for the 5 seconds it takes the average Nullsec pilot to realize what a terribad idea that is).
No one missions in Nullsec, when you can go AFK mission in highsec for a MUCH higher risk/reward, or farm Faction Warfare stuff on a disposable alt for an even BIGGER risk/reward.
This is especially true given that the only missions in null are in NPC space, which piloting a ship in is pure suicide. Maybe, MAYBE, updating the PVE AI so that PVE, especially deep null PVE, is more akin to PVP will help, but unless you take a long hard look at the risk/reward of Missions in Null -- i.e., buff Null Missions, Nerf Highsec Missions, etc -- then it's a fool's errand.
You are treating symptoms. Try looking at the disease instead. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
194
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 08:05:00 -
[479] - Quote
L0rdF1end wrote:10 Years living with the previous AI mechanics means that you grew accustomned to the way in which rats work. You grow your skills to fly the ships to complete a certain task. This growth in skills is to allow you to run higher end missions/plexes. The change now forces you to rethink fittings and now the ability to do what once was possible in some respects is gone.
There was nothing wrong with AI for ten years. If it was such a big deal why not make the changes earlier within the life of Eve.
It basically boils down to, for me personally, not having as much fun as I did pre Retribution. Why would you want to take fun away from a game?
the only change worth noting is you can't easily afk missions with droneboats now. although it also sounds like a few sansha encounters are a complete pain in the ass, but I haven't run any of them. |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
216
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 09:10:00 -
[480] - Quote
Xython wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: People accomplishing missions in low-security or null-security space should not be at a disadvantage when engaged by other players because they have ship fittings tailored to fight NPCs. Ideally, battling NPCs should teach players how PvP works, how to defend and be better prepared about it should they choose to move into dangerous areas. You lost me at "people running missions in null-security space," a statement about as clueless as CCP Omen explaining that he expected PVP Corps to let random neuts use their POCOs because, hey, they might make a few isk (at the risk of letting cyno ships run around free for the 5 seconds it takes the average Nullsec pilot to realize what a terribad idea that is). No one missions in Nullsec, when you can go AFK mission in highsec for a MUCH higher risk/reward, or farm Faction Warfare stuff on a disposable alt for an even BIGGER risk/reward. This is especially true given that the only missions in null are in NPC space, which piloting a ship in is pure suicide. Maybe, MAYBE, updating the PVE AI so that PVE, especially deep null PVE, is more akin to PVP will help, but unless you take a long hard look at the risk/reward of Missions in Null -- i.e., buff Null Missions, Nerf Highsec Missions, etc -- then it's a fool's errand. You are treating symptoms. Try looking at the disease instead.
clearly you dont know nul sec then, a lot of ppl missions in null sec. And its much more profitable than any of high sec plus in the proper alliance/corp its even safer than high sec. |
|
Vas Eldryn
Flying While Intoxicated Apocalypse Now.
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 09:52:00 -
[481] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:L0rdF1end wrote:10 Years living with the previous AI mechanics means that you grew accustomned to the way in which rats work. You grow your skills to fly the ships to complete a certain task. This growth in skills is to allow you to run higher end missions/plexes. The change now forces you to rethink fittings and now the ability to do what once was possible in some respects is gone.
There was nothing wrong with AI for ten years. If it was such a big deal why not make the changes earlier within the life of Eve.
It basically boils down to, for me personally, not having as much fun as I did pre Retribution. Why would you want to take fun away from a game? the only change worth noting is you can't easily afk missions with droneboats now. although it also sounds like a few sansha encounters are a complete pain in the ass, but I haven't run any of them.
so all droneboats should be treated like afk mission runners? let the one bad apple spoil the bunch? |
khamael III
New Rome corp.
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 11:12:00 -
[482] - Quote
I've been runngin lvl 4 mission in a navy dominix for quite a while, and still i'm doing.
My impression is that, if you : - have good drones skills - fit the ship to use sentries the way they shoud be used (having them snipe from afar and standing right where they are) - do not use heavy drones - use lights/med dornes only to finish off the last (fast) figates buzzing around you at the end of the mission - actually are at the computer almost nothing changed except that, from time to time, you have to scoop sentries and relaunch them a couple of seconds later.
At first I was concerned about this new AI, but now - after have it tested in some missions - It seems to me that the problem is being highly ovverrated. |
Deucaliona
Penumbra Institute Villore Accords
7
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 11:36:00 -
[483] - Quote
khamael III wrote:I've been runngin lvl 4 mission in a navy dominix for quite a while, and still i'm doing.
My impression is that, if you : - have good drones skills - fit the ship to use sentries the way they shoud be used (having them snipe from afar and standing right where they are) - do not use heavy drones - use lights/med dornes only to finish off the last (fast) figates buzzing around you at the end of the mission - actually are at the computer almost nothing changed except that, from time to time, you have to scoop sentries and relaunch them a couple of seconds later.
At first I was concerned about this new AI, but now - after have it tested in some missions - It seems to me that the problem is being highly ovverrated, at least as far as missions are concerned.
Using only sentry drones you won't see much of a problem. |
Liber Franci
HOAX Brotherhood
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 12:38:00 -
[484] - Quote
Sorry, but what about leaving the game?
I mean, I have played for 3 years, have some fun, do incursions, high and null sec always with people and mostly with newbs.
I don't like this patch, but CCP make a choice. I will not complain, just leave.
U know the truth : CCP ONLY listen to some people : the "funny" guys from null sec.It will continue. |
Mund Richard
301
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 16:04:00 -
[485] - Quote
khamael III wrote:At first I was concerned about this new AI, but now - after have it tested in some missions - It seems to me that the problem is being highly ovverrated, at least as far as missions are concerned. Mediums and Heavies are kinda broken for PvE.
Lights work, but when just *one* 30k hostile webifier frig made me recall a 450k T2 drone because it was dying to it even in a 1v5, what if there would have been 5 of the enemy as well (or more...), my drone webbed+scrammed, and a bit further away? Sniping frigs spawning 15km away with large railguns or cruise missiles (heck even bouncers) ain't really a viable option.
Only thing I can do, is wait until they orbit me, and play the release-recall game, as it breaks the AI sooner or later. ... Until it gets fixed.
Then it's sacrificing Exotic Dancer, Female to the God of RNG, so that the AI doesn't decide to swap when my light drones are out, only when my sentries. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
241
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 18:13:00 -
[486] - Quote
Xython wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: People accomplishing missions in low-security or null-security space should not be at a disadvantage when engaged by other players because they have ship fittings tailored to fight NPCs. Ideally, battling NPCs should teach players how PvP works, how to defend and be better prepared about it should they choose to move into dangerous areas. You lost me at "people running missions in null-security space," a statement about as clueless as CCP Omen explaining that he expected PVP Corps to let random neuts use their POCOs because, hey, they might make a few isk (at the risk of letting cyno ships run around free for the 5 seconds it takes the average Nullsec pilot to realize what a terribad idea that is). No one missions in Nullsec, when you can go AFK mission in highsec for a MUCH higher risk/reward, or farm Faction Warfare stuff on a disposable alt for an even BIGGER risk/reward. This is especially true given that the only missions in null are in NPC space, which piloting a ship in is pure suicide. Maybe, MAYBE, updating the PVE AI so that PVE, especially deep null PVE, is more akin to PVP will help, but unless you take a long hard look at the risk/reward of Missions in Null -- i.e., buff Null Missions, Nerf Highsec Missions, etc -- then it's a fool's errand. You are treating symptoms. Try looking at the disease instead.
Oh no people mission in NullSec, but it's normally alts of the powerblocks that hold the region the NPC NullSec is in. That way they can get stacks of LP for pirate goods and not harm the standings on their mains.
There are some that run missions out there alone but it's not as many as elsewhere. Honestly NullSec missions are a joke because most people who want to run them can't even get to them. It's long been an issue that those who want to RP pirates or work for the outlaw factions are screwed in their mission running, there needs to be Pirate missions in lowsec so people who are pirates can mission for ISK if they want and kill CONCORD NPCs to feel like they're still a pirate. "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves." |
Annunaki soldier
Segmentum Solar Nulli Legio
61
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 18:36:00 -
[487] - Quote
this game need strictly a pve part to exist. I dont see whats wrong with that. I didnt see it when you tryed to fool around someone on high sec to flip cans or anything so you could engage. There where people that have that as fun. Also what people said that there are many on that game that they need out of stress red crosses to shoot then return to real life is also good to exist.
As npc mission areas are a joke .. ofc they are. I support the move them to low sec and not just 1 small area so actually people cant block and have their alts only to farm .
as for the 0.0 / high sec pve contect both communities have their reason to be there. 0.0 aint that much of a danger if you actually pay attention at all. Still is more dangerous that high sec and that need to be rewarded more , but when you see it on the big coallitions space then ... meh. You could be alone ratting for weeks Ride hard, live with passion-á |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
237
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 19:55:00 -
[488] - Quote
I've recently taken to doing some level 4's again, and I have to say, I feel really sorry for the people who rely on drones to do the work.
Christ on a bike, anything more than one elite frigate and your light drones are toast. Even one elite frigate is a serious threat to 5x Hob II's.
It was one thing when the NPC's had all their ewar changed, as despite what CCP have said in patchnotes, Guristas can still permajam you and Serpentis do effectively the same thing by smacking you with multiple RSD's from a horrendous distance, but it's completely another to completely remove the sole defence you had against them.
It's no fun when a bunch of NPC's ewar you from 50k+ out, and you can do nothing (against ECM, against RSD you have to wait until you are in range AND until you finish your one minute+ lock cycles), it's even less fun when your only counter is taken away.
I have to say that even while I agree with CCP's intentions of bringing PVE and PVP closer together, they've really dropped the ball on this one.
As it stands now, about the only tool that's useful is missiles, and even using FoF's to get around the various permajam/RSD'ing NPC's, it's not exactly anything but incredibly boring and frustrating. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
195
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 21:36:00 -
[489] - Quote
Vas Eldryn wrote:so all droneboats should be treated like afk mission runners? let the one bad apple spoil the bunch?
edit: i thought eve was behind afk gaming... take afk stealth camping in null (not complaining about it i plan to use it)
no but I was primarily thinking of level 4s and higher end ships, scooping sentries only requires paying a little attention. also with a mjd and wardens you can semi afk pretty well, have to watch the frigs a bit though as they tend to get under the guns pretty easily. That said it probably sucks for people trying to run missions in vexors/arbitrators/myrmidons, but I cba to go and run some level 2/3 missions to see how bad.
Mund Richard wrote:khamael III wrote:At first I was concerned about this new AI, but now - after have it tested in some missions - It seems to me that the problem is being highly ovverrated, at least as far as missions are concerned. Mediums and Heavies are kinda broken for PvE. Lights work, but when just *one* 30k hostile webifier frig made me recall a 450k T2 drone because it was dying to it even in a 1v5, what if there would have been 5 of the enemy as well (or more...), my drone webbed+scrammed, and a bit further away? Sniping frigs spawning 15km away with large railguns or cruise missiles (heck even bouncers) ain't really a viable option. Only thing I can do, is wait until they orbit me, and play the release-recall game, as it breaks the AI sooner or later. ... Until it gets fixed. Then it's sacrificing Exotic Dancer, Female to the God of RNG, so that the AI doesn't decide to swap when my light drones are out, only when my sentries.
Mediums have been broken for ages, although they had to break them to get people to use light drones. Heavies are slow very slow, they have always been inefficient. I only use them on angel missions because bouncers don't hit ships orbiting under 10km very well, and so far I haven't had an issue.
at 30km sentries should be able to deal with it, and if it spawns 15km away it will be sub 10k rather shortly you should be able to safely use light drones then. |
Mund Richard
302
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 22:12:00 -
[490] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Vas Eldryn wrote:so all droneboats should be treated like afk mission runners? let the one bad apple spoil the bunch? edit: i thought eve was behind afk gaming... take afk stealth camping in null (not complaining about it i plan to use it) no but I was primarily thinking of level 4s and higher end ships, scooping sentries only requires paying a little attention. also with a mjd and wardens you can semi afk pretty well, have to watch the frigs a bit though as they tend to get under the guns pretty easily. That said it probably sucks for people trying to run missions in vexors/arbitrators/myrmidons, but I cba to go and run some level 2/3 missions to see how bad. I did. Had some standing I wanted to grind. As long as you use small drones, and watch out for the occasional elite (many missions don't have any) then you can even AFK them in a passive Myrm with ease.
After getting this result, I tried using Medium drones while paying attention, target painting to increase hate, ect.
...5 mins later I had Hobgoblins out again, next mission I did in a Drake I think (because it's not AFK I want, just bearable PvE). Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
|
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
189
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 11:38:00 -
[491] - Quote
>it only hurts afk drone boats Untrue, the devs even said the worst case to afk domis was no change, probably even easier.
>just recall drones Great, until they fix that acknowledged bug
>Use sentries They're kind of an advanced platform - that's a bit like saying use a T3, not a viable answer imo.
This has eliminated drones as anything beyond a 5-10km platform (except sentries). Again, this hasn't caused me a problem as such but I can confirm it's added absolutely zero to my playing experience beyond making certain missions where drones were a specific counter (ewar heavy) a hassle.
I've just stopped using them, they don't bring enough to the party to merit the 500k gamble every time they stray beyond the shortest ditance possible. The slowdown in mission completion time isn't noticeable, but not replacing drones is. |
Leetha Layne
54
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 17:32:00 -
[492] - Quote
Sentries an "advanced platform?" WTF is that? You mean that you are not properly skilled to do L4s and are complaining they are too hard?
Wow. Just wow. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
191
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 18:42:00 -
[493] - Quote
For goodness sakes get a sense of perspective.
There is more to life than level 4s. Sentry drones have a pretty lengthy training time to get into the decent ones. I don't fly drone boats but I'm kinda glad I didnt - perhaps I was more "skilled" in not picking a drone ship?
It's eliminated a decent counter to massive EWAR, beyond that it's eliminated some fun, added a bunch of hassle which I personally have simply replaced with prescision weapons/T3 comedy train.
"Skill" (trained or otherwise) has absolutely nothing to do with it, if your drones are more than about 10km out, they're dead already on a target switch. That's not "skill", that's an arbitrary distance beyond which anything not a sentry is useless. Sure, I can use "skill" and just not bother, but again. what did that add to the game?
It doesnt affect me at all, a 30 second per pocket speed bump if that, but I can understand dedicated drone boats problems and the people not rolling over level 4s at high skilll levels. That it doesnt affect me significantly does not mean that I can't understand and empathise with other peoples issues.
I just don't see what benefit this added, except to expose to horror of current drone UI/mechanics/interface. |
Rita Jita
Rita Jita Universal
430
|
Posted - 2013.01.28 00:12:00 -
[494] - Quote
. Founder of the "Haulers Channel"
Come Check It Out
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=176309 |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
16
|
Posted - 2013.01.28 20:25:00 -
[495] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote: if your drones are more than about 10km out, they're dead already on a target switch.
If they are light and you are really paying attention... they got a chance. So to reiterate, again, this change very clearly illustrates that medium and heavy drones are completely obsolesced (its a word, but I cant spell it) by the changes. Sentry drones are just fine, and light drones have a margin of usefulness.
So lets take a look just to Illustrate back one of our cases, not for drone ships but for missions (all types, so counting explorations etc...even though you wouldnt do them with this example ship just stay with me fellas, dont flame) and for this example I am going to use a Raven.
The raven's main weapon compliment is cruise missiles, "good" for battleships, "fair" for battlecruisers, middling to poor on cruisers sans target painter. Borderline worthless on frigates.
Raven's drone compliment: 75 m3/ 75m3 Everyone has always used light drones to take out frigates.... so we can say you keep one flight of light drones. 75-25= 50 remaining bandwidth. Since the anti-cruiser assistance you desperately need should be facilitated by medium drones it would be logical to carry 5 of them to fill that remaining bandwidth AND what I believe it was initially designed to fit in that area.
T2 mediums would just be fodder for cruisers to blow up so your light drones now have to do double duty.
so do you just get 2 more flights of light drones to replace ones lost in the course of the mission? Counterproductive, you start losing drones and you are cutting into your income. Secondarily if you load 2 sentries it will give you a bit more umph but that just goes in to point out the idocracy we find ourselves in. This is not a drone boat but it has little options.
Effectively as it stands now you could make it just have 25 m3 bandwidth and give it 75m3 storage if you want it to only launch lights now and for that matter the person will probably be better off in a heavy missile drake. Way to force people back toward a drake, since at least it will be able to bring more firepower to bear on cruisers, frigates, and battlecruisers.
Thanks to Morrigan LeSante for helping me make this point. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
195
|
Posted - 2013.01.28 21:29:00 -
[496] - Quote
Missile boats are actually ok, if you can use T2 - precision/rigors/painters will tear even elite frigs to ribbons.
I'll re-post here the feedback I dropped in another thread:
Me wrote:After some monkeying around in a myrm (@BC V) in level 3s, I can confirm my initial thoughts/assessment that light/medium/heavy drones are absolutely dead as a long range weapons platform. Drone link augmentor is a bad joke at this stage. Once you recall/resend them out of the bay often enough, the AI craps up and just wont target them any more - this is the confirmed bug I alluded to. Once that is fixed.....well, best be using sentries.
By the time the UI updated to show the NPCs were no longer targetting me, the hobgob was already into armor - at <10km out. It made it back in structure.
It begs the question - why even bother? Using something else ('cane, drake, whatever) is just so much more fun. I had to slowboat towards rats 80km away until they came close enough that I could bounce drones in and out at will with almost no time loss.
Frankly the experience simply underscores my not bothering to use them in my usual missioning affairs. |
Yabba Addict
Red Shift Enterprises
57
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 16:23:00 -
[497] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before.
I really don't know why you want to do this. Have you any clue, just one iota of how hard pvp is when compared to missions?The average 'bear will lose ships on a daily basis when faced with this. Remember when incursions came out? Great pve content, don't get me wrong, but pvp like in nature and one of the main rules you'd hear was don't try unless you have pvp experience. Now throw your average 'bear into that, see what happens.
|
Mathrin
Synthetic Solution Synthetic Systems
55
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 17:46:00 -
[498] - Quote
This change should have happened along time ago. Now drones have a negative side like all other weapons platforms. |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
18
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 18:14:00 -
[499] - Quote
Mathrin wrote:This change should have happened along time ago. Now drones have a negative side like all other weapons platforms.
What is the medium or heavy drones positive side?
Or are you from the camp that you don't rely on drones and so others shouldn't need to either. (Btw I don't use drones on my Tengu either.)
|
Jukio Saisima
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 02:12:00 -
[500] - Quote
Leetha Layne wrote:Sentries an "advanced platform?" WTF is that? You mean that you are not properly skilled to do L4s and are complaining they are too hard?
What this has eliminated is underskilled capsuleers who can sit in a BS jumping into L4s without consequence..
Wow. Just wow.
Look miss or mister cocky. I can do lvl 4 mission just fine. No need for battleships. I just use two battlecruisers. One has heavy thank to jump in and pull them away from gate. Then I go to Tier 3 and snipe them from distance. So I have to go out of jamming range ... 140 km+.
So what have that to do with skills? I am playing EVE for about 2 months and my skills are ... well at the bottom. Green as grass.
There is no consequence jumping in to L4 mission. Even rookie like me can play with that just fine.
Point in this is that there is no reason for people to play lvl 4 mission. Most of us do this for ISK. You can make more iSK in lvl 3 mission in the same time then in lvl 4. Not to mention mining.
Of course, excluding people who are so experienced as you are. You can as it seems make huge ISK from lvl 4 in short time.
LP |
|
goldiiee
Tax and War Haven
175
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 02:34:00 -
[501] - Quote
Bedlin wrote:Mathrin wrote:This change should have happened along time ago. Now drones have a negative side like all other weapons platforms. What is the medium or heavy drones positive side? Or are you from the camp that you don't rely on drones and so others shouldn't need to either. (Btw I don't use drones on my Tengu either.) Don't want to step on toes but here goes, 1. Drones do not need ammo, they are ammo, so as ammo they should deplete. 2. The only other ammo in the game that does not deplete are T1 crystals, but they cost capacitor, so a drawback still exists. 3. Drones have all damage types covered, so once again better than lasers and comparable to all other ammo but do not deplete. 4. Drones skills are not genus based (they apply to all races)
I don't want to go on for fear of sounding like a lunatic, but these 4 reasons should be more than enough to nerf them in some way. But essentially ammo is the cost of earning ISK, winning fights, or holding ground, with drones there is little to no cost for unlimited earnings. Reason and logic never wins over Stubborn and Convinced-á (But-áI still try..) |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
198
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 08:43:00 -
[502] - Quote
goldiiee wrote:Bedlin wrote:Mathrin wrote:This change should have happened along time ago. Now drones have a negative side like all other weapons platforms. What is the medium or heavy drones positive side? Or are you from the camp that you don't rely on drones and so others shouldn't need to either. (Btw I don't use drones on my Tengu either.) Don't want to step on toes but here goes, 1. Drones do not need ammo, they are ammo, so as ammo they should deplete. 2. The only other ammo in the game that does not deplete are T1 crystals, but they cost capacitor, so a drawback still exists. 3. Drones have all damage types covered, so once again better than lasers and comparable to all other ammo but do not deplete. 4. Drones skills are not genus based (they apply to all races) I don't want to go on for fear of sounding like a lunatic, but these 4 reasons should be more than enough to nerf them in some way. But essentially ammo is the cost of earning ISK, winning fights, or holding ground, with drones there is little to no cost for unlimited earnings.
They also have pretty lackluster DPS compared to 'real' weapons Their damage selection is a red herring due to damage multipliers being different (unless that was changed?) Their travel time is atrocious - that's a lot of paper DPS lost. They're really quite easy to kill They become easier to kill when you order a retreat (thanks MWD sig bloom!)
I can honestly say I don't recall any serious threads suggesting drones were overpowered, not in recent years
Without exploiting the AI bug to switch it off, using anything beyond sentries (people are reporting lights have varied success, I found myself using warrior II for the extra GTFO factor but even they struggled) at ranges in excess of 10km will cost you dearly. That's REALLY annoying in those places where drones were used to counter NPC EWAR. |
sarkenna
I See U 2.0
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 10:47:00 -
[503] - Quote
I came back to eve after a 1 year to 1,5 year pause. And even though the new AI sucks at various points (tracking disrupters anyone ?), my good old Navy Dominix is still the ship of choice.
The new Drone dmg mods, which had not been around last time i played increase my t2 sentry DPS to 640 - 800 (depending on type). The new AI doesn't full stage aggro and sometimes even shoots drones with battleships, thus i could decrease my tank from dual rep with 4 hardeners to 1 rep with 2 hardeners.
My drones shoot up to 100 km with ease and i cannot afk a blockade anymore BUT it is still easy to tear through missions thanks to my newfound DPS boost.
HOWEVER that beeing said everything besides sentry drones is a pain in the ass and next to useless. So yes coming to drones for PVE you just limited the viable options to sentries ... heck i even fit small guns in the highslots for frigs..because light drones die way to fast to any random enemy frig. |
Claire Raynor
NovaGear
50
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 13:55:00 -
[504] - Quote
goldiiee wrote:Bedlin wrote:Mathrin wrote:This change should have happened along time ago. Now drones have a negative side like all other weapons platforms. What is the medium or heavy drones positive side? Or are you from the camp that you don't rely on drones and so others shouldn't need to either. (Btw I don't use drones on my Tengu either.) Don't want to step on toes but here goes, 1. Drones do not need ammo, they are ammo, so as ammo they should deplete. 2. The only other ammo in the game that does not deplete are T1 crystals, but they cost capacitor, so a drawback still exists. 3. Drones have all damage types covered, so once again better than lasers and comparable to all other ammo but do not deplete. 4. Drones skills are not genus based (they apply to all races) I don't want to go on for fear of sounding like a lunatic, but these 4 reasons should be more than enough to nerf them in some way. But essentially ammo is the cost of earning ISK, winning fights, or holding ground, with drones there is little to no cost for unlimited earnings.
I don't agree with your post. If Drones are Ammo. Then Can I have 36000 rounds of them in my hold - and can they cost 196 isk each? Cheers, thanks. Bye. |
Bryla Jax
AeD Corp
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 14:35:00 -
[505] - Quote
From a different post :
CCP Affinity wrote:We are reading this thread and it contains some good ideas. We are always looking for new ways to make PvE more exciting and more unpredictable but overhauling the entire mission system is not a task to be taken lightly. This will impact a huge percentage of players and requires a lot of thought, planning and most importantly - communication with the player base before we make any adjustments
So, every changes on the missions system require "a lot of thought, planning and most importantly - communication with the player". And what about the last change you have done? You changed the mechanics of every mission, without any thought, planning or communcation with the base player.
Reading about , "yeah yeah we know that the drone boat now sucks, but don't worry in a couple of years we will revamp all the mission systems and you will use again no sentry drones!" or something like "Eve is a sandbox, but every aspect of this game will be like PvP" is hardly acceptable by a professional game designer.
You wanna add some new missions mechanics? Cool, add it, but like a new feature. And, for god sake, add it AFTER you complete all the design/test/balance of it, just to avoid come idea of poor job by the dev team.
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Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
200
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 14:47:00 -
[506] - Quote
Not entirely accurate - there WAS a massive feedback thread. Much of it predicting DoomGäó |
jimbolina
State War Academy Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 15:34:00 -
[507] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Not entirely accurate - there WAS a massive feedback thread. Much of it predicting DoomGäó
it was a massive thread. But hey, did CCP listen any of out thoughts?
Don't kid ourself. CCP will never make things just because we, players, want them. If they see that proposed thing fits into their agenda, then they will put it in the game.
They will simply force ideas on us, sisi doesn't exists any more. Yeah i know there is server called Singularity, but its purpose is carried onto Live server. We are testing for CCP and pays them huge pile of money while doing so. Great game! |
Mathrin
Synthetic Solution Synthetic Systems
56
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 19:06:00 -
[508] - Quote
Bedlin wrote:Mathrin wrote:This change should have happened along time ago. Now drones have a negative side like all other weapons platforms. What is the medium or heavy drones positive side? Or are you from the camp that you don't rely on drones and so others shouldn't need to either. (Btw I don't use drones on my Tengu either.)
I can't fly a tengu. I'm amarr. Positive side of drones is: you can choose damage types. You don't need ammo. They don't rely on cap. Other weapons have these perks but none have them all. Additionally if you were smart before the ai change drones didn't get ECM, TD, damp, or neut aggro all of which can cripple other ships. So before drone users didn't have to worry about much. Now I think it's balanced as they have to react to what's on field. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
203
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 20:14:00 -
[509] - Quote
Mathrin wrote:Bedlin wrote:Mathrin wrote:This change should have happened along time ago. Now drones have a negative side like all other weapons platforms. What is the medium or heavy drones positive side? Or are you from the camp that you don't rely on drones and so others shouldn't need to either. (Btw I don't use drones on my Tengu either.) I can't fly a tengu. I'm amarr. Positive side of drones is: you can choose damage types. You don't need ammo. They don't rely on cap. Other weapons have these perks but none have them all. Additionally if you were smart before the ai change drones didn't get ECM, TD, damp, or neut aggro all of which can cripple other ships. So before drone users didn't have to worry about much. Now I think it's balanced as they have to react to what's on field.
And the drone drawbacks? What about those?
Travel time? The the damage selection comes at a price? That the weapon can be destroyed?
And that's before the new 'feature': That any medium or heavy drone deployed more than 10km out is almost certainly dead?
You see even as a missile boat driver, rather than speculate, I took a myrm out (at BC V) to test and I can tell you now, even in level 3's, mediums are dead beyond approximately 10km. They're like really expensive chaff. Very quickly, I found myself spending ALL my time watching the overview for reds stopping flashing and little grey bars blinking deep red quickly and mashing the return key. That's all I could do if I didnt want to lose drones and even then there's only so fast they recall and still sometimes they die in spite of my watching them like some sort of OCD crazy.
It's simply not a fun mechanic, it's ridiculous. Remember, this was on a drone boat with the HP bonus, its not even worth considering on an unbonused hull save at absolute minimum range.
Later I took a sentry drone boat out for jollies and can again confirm that sentries are just fine.
Lights are borderline, but medium and heavies? That's a point blank weapon system, but nothing. An expensive, temporary, lacklustre, point blank range weapon system. Tough crap if the NPCs orbit at middle distance.
I don't think that was the aim of the change. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 10:13:00 -
[510] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
And the drone drawbacks? What about those?
Travel time? The the damage selection comes at a price? That the weapon can be destroyed?
And that's before the new 'feature': That any medium or heavy drone deployed more than 10km out is almost certainly dead?
You see even as a missile boat driver, rather than speculate, I took a myrm out (at BC V) to test and I can tell you now, even in level 3's, mediums are dead beyond approximately 10km. They're like really expensive chaff. Very quickly, I found myself spending ALL my time watching the overview for reds stopping flashing and little grey bars blinking deep red quickly and mashing the return key. That's all I could do if I didnt want to lose drones and even then there's only so fast they recall and still sometimes they die in spite of my watching them like some sort of OCD crazy.
It's simply not a fun mechanic, it's ridiculous. Remember, this was on a drone boat with the HP bonus, its not even worth considering on an unbonused hull save at absolute minimum range.
Later I took a sentry drone boat out for jollies and can again confirm that sentries are just fine.
Lights are borderline, but medium and heavies? That's a point blank weapon system, but nothing. An expensive, temporary, lacklustre, point blank range weapon system. Tough crap if the NPCs orbit at middle distance.
I don't think that was the aim of the change.
So, returning from a RL break, I find that situation...
The 'fun' part is, there is nothing to be done about protecting heavy drones other than (maybe - I could not test that because of a lack of skills) running a heavy dual spider rep setup with sentries and using heavy drones only when NPCs get too close for sentries.
Last night i ran a couple of LVL3 missions to test if my old Tank+DPS setup might be still useable once i upgraded from Drake to SNI and mounted 2 Target Painters on my Drake . They didn't generate enough threat to keep my Alt's heavy drones safe (not even to prevent NPCs from switching to my ALT once i returned drones to bay).
I tried again with 2 Tracking Disruptors - the result wasn't any better, possibly even worse.
I did not try ECM yet, that's still on my agenda.
So..Sentries being fine? Possibly - my Alt has the skills now but not yet used sentries. But what if i don't want to be a sitting duck? What about Ishtar/Gila? Both are not really designed to being used stationary.
So right now I'm sitting on not one but two more or less unusable 12M SP chars, which were specifically skilled for the aggro system that i was presented with when i started playing this game last year.
The tank char might be upgradable into a solo Tengu pilot (surprise surprise...and yawn) given a bit of time, but that will more or less kill my Alt where 7 of 12M are in drone skills. |
|
Varus Praetor
Libertarian for Life
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 13:04:00 -
[511] - Quote
I tried to "adapt" to this change by training up Amarr BS (which I've wanted anyway) and switching from drones to turrets. Sansha TD killed that idea. So, I tried the MJD Domi.
Verdict is:
Light drones are mostly useless and have to be micromanaged so much that they're not worth my time. Hitting recall every two seconds is not enjoyable. Mediums are now as equally pointless as heavies have been for as long as I've been playing. Sentries are all over the place. Some missions I get no aggro and others they get instant aggro when used at "normal" ranges based on warp in and spawn locations.
However, with a MJD every mission I've run has become completely trivial. I usually don't even have to turn my tank on and if I can't kill everything before it gets to me I just MJD back the other direction and kite them some more. This is even more boring than missioning used to be, but it's effective. My drone boat is now a true one trick pony. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 13:56:00 -
[512] - Quote
Varus Praetor wrote: Mediums are now as equally pointless as heavies have been for as long as I've been playing.
Heavies were great on my DPS alt with the old NPC behaviour. 1-2 drone navigation links were the trick that changed them from awful to very nice.
Quote: However, with a MJD every mission I've run has become completely trivial. I usually don't even have to turn my tank on and if I can't kill everything before it gets to me I just MJD back the other direction and kite them some more. This is even more boring than missioning used to be, but it's effective. My drone boat is now a true one trick pony.
What happens if you're scrambled before your MJD activates? Never happened? |
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
48
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 15:50:00 -
[513] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:What happens if you're scrambled before your MJD activates? Never happened? NPC scrams apparently don't affect MJD activation. |
Claire Raynor
NovaGear
77
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 19:29:00 -
[514] - Quote
Yeah - But we all agree that the design intent of what CCP are trying to do is great - yes? They don't want to screw missions - they are trying to make them better - obviously. (I just don't think it's quite working out right now though).
I'm given to understand - That they actually want to make missions more like PvP, (Eventually). Super hard limited numbers of enemy ships that actually will be affected by Neuts - that will try and warp away to deprive you of the kill - that will suffer from ECM - etc. Which all sounds fun and challenging. It actually sounds totally awesome - and would move PvE on enourmoulsy.
I just think - I really think - that they shouldn't make all missions like this - that they should leave the old content as is - and create this new content as something different and extra - maybe one day it will displace the old stuff completely - but do them in parallel to see if the old stuff still has value - I belive it does have value, (I used to enjoy it soo much).
I love your direction CCP. . But. . .
At the moment - I feel that CCP, (please!!!!), really really - need to calm down NPC E-War and do something to fix drones. Now the only reason why I feel this needs to be done is that at the moment - being jammed and disrupted is simply no fun. And permenantly, (and permenantly actually isn't much of an over statement - it's silly ATM), watching drone aggro - or else you lose the drones - is also no fun - I love my little drones.
Fun! |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 00:48:00 -
[515] - Quote
What bugs me most is that there is no discernable pattern to the AI's aggro switch.
Today I tried both ECM and RR (even bought an Osprey for that).
2 ECM were not reliable (though subjectively better than TP and TD, but numbers are too low to be sure).
5 shield transporters took a while to grab aggro, seemed reliable (albeit too slow, had to rep drones for ages) and then i lost the remaining ship to the Myrmidon shooting with 3 light arty? WTF.
I'm somewhat hesitant to train both chars towards spider domi unless i'm completely sure it'll work. |
Flying Apocalypse
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 09:15:00 -
[516] - Quote
Claire Raynor wrote:Yeah - But we all agree that the design intent of what CCP are trying to do is great - yes? They don't want to screw missions - they are trying to make them better - obviously. (I just don't think it's quite working out right now though).
I'm given to understand - That they actually want to make missions more like PvP, (Eventually). Super hard limited numbers of enemy ships that actually will be affected by Neuts - that will try and warp away to deprive you of the kill - that will suffer from ECM - etc. Which all sounds fun and challenging. It actually sounds totally awesome - and would move PvE on enourmoulsy.
I just think - I really think - that they shouldn't make all missions like this - that they should leave the old content as is - and create this new content as something different and extra - maybe one day it will displace the old stuff completely - but do them in parallel to see if the old stuff still has value - I belive it does have value, (I used to enjoy it soo much).
I love your direction CCP. . But. . .
At the moment - I feel that CCP, (please!!!!), really really - need to calm down NPC E-War and do something to fix drones. Now the only reason why I feel this needs to be done is that at the moment - being jammed and disrupted is simply no fun. And permenantly, (and permenantly actually isn't much of an over statement - it's silly ATM), watching drone aggro - or else you lose the drones - is also no fun - I love my little drones.
Fun!
Tbh, if npc's will just warp away what would stop me from just blitzing them? Atm im fully running missions(silly me) but if my they warp away if I don't scram them, I'll just blitz the **** out of missions...If missions are even still possible at that moment, I fear the next update to NPC's will make them even stronger.
Yesterday I did the mission "The Assault" by guristas in a paladin. Since I saw it was guristas I decided to switch my web/tracking computer both to ECCM, and due to 45 sensor strength didn't get jammed, however there were a few problems even without jammed-to-death for example: I had 15 light drones when I warped into the mission, I left with 7. Due to NPC's just instalocking and shooting them instantly into structure when I launched them. As well as the insane NPC ship abilities, ravens,moa's,ferox with 120km lock range, heavies/torps hitting me from 120km away(cruises aren't that weird to hit at that range) as well as the missile damage not being mitigated by moving. In usual cases you just move and you mitigate some damage from missiles, but that just doesn't work because they still hit for full damage(while even turret based npc's damage is mitigated slightly by moving) For some reason I can't delete my signature o.o |
Knorkor
Spartan Advanced Mining It's Not Fair
15
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 08:44:00 -
[517] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, here is an update on our earlier post. NPC Tracking disruptor update:After looking at this thread feedback this issue has been reopened internally (we thought it fixed a few weeks back). No promises on a resolution yet but we are currently looking into this. A bit of further explanation on our previous post as well, since there has been quite some conversation about it:EVE PvE systems, mainly mission running, are terribly outdated and are due for a change. Exactly how and when is not something we can state on the paper, but we had having several internal discussions on how this could be done. One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter. NPC bounties could be merged, or moved on progressive secondary objectives that require more and more skill from the player to achieve, while possibly having more risk. For instance, saving the Damsel could pay less or the same than it does today, but you could get extra rewards for completing special, more difficult objectives like rescuing her in a specific period of time, or blowing the evil Zor up before he runs away with her sister in his ship cargohold. Keep in mind this remain just an theoretical idea though that is most likely going to change if and when we start work on this particular point. Reducing NPC numbers also allows us to better scale EW player faces on a regular basis (mainly, we are referring to missions like the Blockade here). Assigning strong EW effects to few NPCs is fine, but it becomes horribly frustrating when faced with 5 full waves of NPCs sensor dampening you, as there is little the player can do to counter it. We should be relying on gameplay players can overcome if they are smart instead of brute force mechanics. Why are we considering changing PvE like this? That is because we are running missions and PvE content ourselves, and we are not particularly fond of the stale state PvE is in EVE Online right now, except for the most recent content (Incursions and Wormholes). Missions and exploration should let players gamble with risk if they feel up to it. While people looking for quick and relaxing content should still be able to do so, we also want players to find excitement from accomplishing missions and feel great about it. You should not be forced to shoot the same dull and repetitive encounters if you donGÇÖt feel up to it. It is a tricky thing to achieve though, as it does not mean we want you to lose ships every mission either. This would also be done to put mission runners more on an equal footing with hostile players when moving into hazardous space. People accomplishing missions in low-security or null-security space should not be at a disadvantage when engaged by other players because they have ship fittings tailored to fight NPCs. Ideally, battling NPCs should teach players how PvP works, how to defend and be better prepared about it should they choose to move into dangerous areas. We often hear "EVE is a PvP game, PvE is secondary". To this we would like to respond that EVE is a sandbox and shouldnGÇÖt necessarily favor one side over the other. What you do with it is up to you: all player activities should feel as appealing and rewarding no matter which choice you take, as long as you are willing to live up with the consequences of your actions. You are murdering our drone ships!We are aware of the recent changes brought by the NPC AI. As said in our previous post, the first NPC behavior deployed for Retribution was too extreme and has been corrected. However, we are aware that drone ships are receiving the short end of the stick here and have been ignored for quite a bit. This is especially valid since as the tiericide initiative continues, we are adding more drone hulls, but not looking at the drone mechanics themselves, which do need much love. Again, while we are not in a position to state how or when such revamp will happen, this definitely is on our to-do list not only to rebalance drones in general, but also update their behavior, improve their handling through the UI and finally add more combat options for players choosing to specialize in such gameplay. The need for such drone rebalance will only grow with time as we keep on rebalancing ships, so we do hope this can be done as soon as humanly possible. Oops, now I've written a wall of text Well anyway, we hope this do help a bit.
I actually came here to ask for such a post, so I am happy to see it has already been made.
Being mass damped in e.g. a Serpentis Blockade is really not fun. I'd rather have 1 or max 2 ships dampening and being able to react to it instead of having to wait for all of them to come within 10 km so I can finally start shooting.
If our anti e-war modules would be actually useful against NPCs, I'd fit them. But when you are damped by 10 rats, those are pretty much useless. An immediate fix would be to have rats communicate with each other about who is applying E-War or just letting a max number of E-War enemies spawn at all. Or have it so that E-War applied by NPCs only does something for the first effect, all other effects OF THE SAME TYPE are not taken into account. Something along those lines. This way they cannot damp me down to 10 km and I can actually play the mission properly, even with a Navy Mega, which I was never able to fly in a Blockade because the rats come too close for comfort. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 08:51:00 -
[518] - Quote
Knorkor wrote: An immediate fix would be to have rats communicate with each other about who is applying E-War or just letting a max number of E-War enemies spawn at all. Or have it so that E-War applied by NPCs only does something for the first effect, all other effects OF THE SAME TYPE are not taken into account.
That wold be a bit extreme.
Simple diminishing returns, the same as in PvP, should be sufficient - I would hope. |
Knorkor
Spartan Advanced Mining It's Not Fair
15
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 08:57:00 -
[519] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Knorkor wrote: An immediate fix would be to have rats communicate with each other about who is applying E-War or just letting a max number of E-War enemies spawn at all. Or have it so that E-War applied by NPCs only does something for the first effect, all other effects OF THE SAME TYPE are not taken into account.
That wold be a bit extreme. Simple diminishing returns, the same as in PvP, should be sufficient - I would hope. Yeah well maybe, it is up to CCP. But I really do think that there must be some diminishing effects to avoid such situation. What I usually did was just to sit there in a dual repped domi, throw out sentries and wait for the rats to die. Not fun. |
Mund Richard
304
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 13:21:00 -
[520] - Quote
Knorkor wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Knorkor wrote: An immediate fix would be to have rats communicate with each other about who is applying E-War or just letting a max number of E-War enemies spawn at all. Or have it so that E-War applied by NPCs only does something for the first effect, all other effects OF THE SAME TYPE are not taken into account.
That wold be a bit extreme. Simple diminishing returns, the same as in PvP, should be sufficient - I would hope. Yeah well maybe, it is up to CCP. But I really do think that there must be some diminishing effects to avoid such situation. What I usually did was just to sit there in a dual repped domi, throw out sentries and wait for the rats to die. Not fun. Ages ago, dampened below where they were shooting me from, had my sentries pop one trigger after the other in Blocade. Ended up with drone links in the highs, warping in at 100 from one direction, then the other. The dps with my at the time poor skills was ludicrious, as was the sub 10km lock range and over a minute lock time.
Now, how good would be PvP diminsh? Taking a Domi, because why the hell not and T2 unscripted unbonused Damps: Targeting range: 87->72->62->56->53 and even with 10 you are over 50km Resolution: 112.5->93->80->72->68 ... with 10 you still have 66
Compared to the 9 km lock range and a fraction of the resolution of a friggin TITAN, it would be quite a considerable blessing. For TD-s I bet as well, saw last time a screenshot of someone being reduced below 10% range, unable to hit orbiting cruisers with radio crystals with Tachions!
And would fit the "more like pvp" theme CCP is advocating. Would be about time we don't only get the sucky part of that. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
|
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
833
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 21:05:00 -
[521] - Quote
CCP wanted to **** drone users in the ass, CCP ****** drone users in the ass.
CCP is now smoking a cig, and your ass is still sore, want to cry about it? Hey, I just met you... and this is crazy but you popped my Rifter, so don't pod me maybe? |
Achenar Chertio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 21:22:00 -
[522] - Quote
From what I've gathered is that the AI change is part of a bigger change that CCP intends to implement whenever. However, it would seem that the mistake that CCP has done is prematurely changed the NPC AI when in fact they should've waited until they have rest of the PvE reworked and ready. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
211
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 21:59:00 -
[523] - Quote
I'm not a fan of the notion of warp scrams/disruption requirements in PvE for one reason: range. It would put a disproportionate weighting on short range weapon systems.
However the general principles are to be welcomed - BUT a lot more 'parallel' balancing needs to happen. For example the inability to neut rats, their weapon ranges and so forth.
I'm reminded of rats like old Dagan - that was a lot of fun. That however also reminds me that what was once challenging becomes trivial given sufficient skill and experience. There needs to be a finer granularity than levels 1-4 |
Knorkor
Spartan Advanced Mining It's Not Fair
15
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 23:01:00 -
[524] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:I'm not a fan of the notion of warp scrams/disruption requirements in PvE for one reason: range. It would put a disproportionate weighting on short range weapon systems.
However the general principles are to be welcomed - BUT a lot more 'parallel' balancing needs to happen. For example the inability to neut rats, their weapon ranges and so forth.
I'm reminded of rats like old Dagan - that was a lot of fun. That however also reminds me that what was once challenging becomes trivial given sufficient skill and experience. There needs to be a finer granularity than levels 1-4
I agree. Lvl 4 are dead easy for me, but lvl 5 requires multiboxing and a lot of money to throw at your ships. I'd welcome something in between those lines. |
La'Krul
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
5
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 01:46:00 -
[525] - Quote
I just want to say that in the 5 years I've been playing, this AI change is possibly the worst change that has been made to the game (aside from Incarna obviously and the laughable sov mechanics).
I have just got into null sec exploration and fly about in an Ishtar mainly because I love the ship and have max drone skills. I will generally lose a few million isks' worth of drones each night. Oh what fun it is to be stuck out in null trying to find a station with more drones to buy!!!
It's ********. As soon as your drones are targeted you might as well kiss them goodbye - you can't save them by returning them because as soon as you do their mwds switch on and they actually take more damage and die. If my sentries get aggro (even if I am orbiting one at 500m) one will probably die or get low in armour before I can get the thing back in the drone bay. I wouldn't mind if sentries could be returned but had to be stationary whilst firing - then I could pull them back in before they pop.
All of this is made worse by the fact that the drone UI is the most fiddly, unhelpful mechanism you could ever wish for. I mean you have to wonder what is wrong with CCP at times. For years people have moaned about the drone UI so CCPs solution to this is to not do anything at all to improve the UI but instead make drones practically unviable in pve. What an inspired idea!!!
I don't have a problem with CCP wanting to make the game more challenging, although it seems out of kilter with their efforts at dumbing everything else down right now (please see new ship changes devblog for more) but the missions aren't any more difficult as a result of these AI changes - they are just more tedious and annoying. If I get to the third room of a plex and have to warp off to use the station next door and repair my drones before warping all the way back through those rooms to get to where I was 10 minutes ago, it's not more difficult, it's just boring and kills enthusiasm.
|
Conan edogawa
Confrerie de la Lumiere Confrerie de la Lumiere Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 16:47:00 -
[526] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
And the drone drawbacks? What about those?
Travel time? The the damage selection comes at a price? That the weapon can be destroyed?
And that's before the new 'feature': That any medium or heavy drone deployed more than 10km out is almost certainly dead?
You see even as a missile boat driver, rather than speculate, I took a myrm out (at BC V) to test and I can tell you now, even in level 3's, mediums are dead beyond approximately 10km. They're like really expensive chaff. Very quickly, I found myself spending ALL my time watching the overview for reds stopping flashing and little grey bars blinking deep red quickly and mashing the return key. That's all I could do if I didnt want to lose drones and even then there's only so fast they recall and still sometimes they die in spite of my watching them like some sort of OCD crazy.
It's simply not a fun mechanic, it's ridiculous. Remember, this was on a drone boat with the HP bonus, its not even worth considering on an unbonused hull save at absolute minimum range.
Later I took a sentry drone boat out for jollies and can again confirm that sentries are just fine.
Lights are borderline, but medium and heavies? That's a point blank weapon system, but nothing. An expensive, temporary, lacklustre, point blank range weapon system. Tough crap if the NPCs orbit at middle distance.
I don't think that was the aim of the change.
Totally agreed.
|
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
179
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 20:36:00 -
[527] - Quote
Looked for the CCP response, found it. Typical post of "we realize we made things kind of worse, we'll get around to un-worsening it later". |
Mund Richard
309
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 20:51:00 -
[528] - Quote
Inkarr Hashur wrote:Looked for the CCP response, found it. Typical post of "we realize we made things kind of worse, we'll get around to un-worsening it later". In fact, depending on which response you look at, you could interpret it as "we realize we made things worse, but it's now fixed".
At least the part they broke horribly, the BS rebalance devblog had a "blaim the weapon, not the ship" for the Domi, so they should have something baking in the oven before the heatdeath of the universe. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
Achenar Chertio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 22:33:00 -
[529] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks,
Elite frigates and cruisers NPCs will go for small drones and above.
Currently this is the only part I don't understand (as I haven't gotten further than lvl 3s). Why aren't elite frigates in the same category as normal frigates? |
Ikshuki
Lockheed Martin Systems
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 00:57:00 -
[530] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:I hope they aren't "the many". I'd hate to think that "the many" was a bunch of entitled baddies who think high level PVE should be something they can solo without effort or thought and make insane amounts from.
yeah well L4s has always been soloable, isn't that why there are pirate faction ships? to solo L4s? if they don't want us soloing L4s they should've never released those ships |
|
Ikshuki
Lockheed Martin Systems
6
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 00:59:00 -
[531] - Quote
Achenar Chertio wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks,
Elite frigates and cruisers NPCs will go for small drones and above. Currently this is the only part I don't understand (as I haven't gotten further than lvl 3s). Why aren't elite frigates in the same category as normal frigates?
Normally they are in the same category, but when they flash yellow it means your drones are toast |
Mund Richard
309
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 01:07:00 -
[532] - Quote
Achenar Chertio wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks,
Elite frigates and cruisers NPCs will go for small drones and above. Currently this is the only part I don't understand (as I haven't gotten further than lvl 3s). Why aren't elite frigates in the same category as normal frigates? [Sarcasm] Because that way the Dragoon and Algos introduced so rescently would be completely non-newbie friendly in level 1-2s, and thus aspiring new Gallente players would learn soon enough not to put too much SP in drones. [/Sarcasm]
No, seriously, something had to be done to make lower level missions doable with drones without knowing the game well enough, and this is what they came up with (ofc a Vexor's mediums are happily eaten in a L2).
It helps a bit in L4s as well (though a single elite frig can still kill or at least put into hull a T2 drone while 5 gang up on him, not mention when it's 5 vs 5 or worse). Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
anishamora
Atelierele Grivita
17
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 11:46:00 -
[533] - Quote
Whatever CCP had in mind with this change, it totally brought the demise of good ol' drone boats and their viability in PvE. Anyone saying "HTFU, L2P" has obviously never used drones since the change was implemented or just uses sentries with marginal success.
Also comparing drones with ammo is silly from many points of view and shows an utter lack of knowledge of this weapon system. |
Conan edogawa
Confrerie de la Lumiere Confrerie de la Lumiere Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 16:00:00 -
[534] - Quote
anishamora wrote:Anyone saying "HTFU, L2P" has obviously never used drones since the change was implemented or just uses sentries with marginal success.
Or are using HAM Tengu which seems to be the fix for every kind of problem when I read the forum
|
Mund Richard
318
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 20:59:00 -
[535] - Quote
Conan edogawa wrote:anishamora wrote:Anyone saying "HTFU, L2P" has obviously never used drones since the change was implemented or just uses sentries with marginal success. Or are using HAM Tengu which seems to be the fix for every kind of problem when I read the forum Which is pretty much the "never used drones since the change", ain't it now?
Well, I also hear good things about AC Mach running away from the rats, as long as you keep webs off of you, and that one has a drone bay you can load with T1/lights for dire need. >> "We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Including NPC EWAR getting the stacking penalty? Would be awesome to have a cap on how far they can reduce my lock range (not 10km from 100 in a BS) or optimal+falloff with TD. |
Conan edogawa
Confrerie de la Lumiere Confrerie de la Lumiere Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 23:23:00 -
[536] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Conan edogawa wrote:anishamora wrote:Anyone saying "HTFU, L2P" has obviously never used drones since the change was implemented or just uses sentries with marginal success. Or are using HAM Tengu which seems to be the fix for every kind of problem when I read the forum Which is pretty much the "never used drones since the change", ain't it now? Well, I also hear good things about AC Mach running away from the rats, as long as you keep webs off of you, and that one has a drone bay you can load with T1/lights for dire need.
People says to use this or this ship. But the real problem is to fix those drones. Escaping auto-aggro by using other ships is the same thing as telling CCP to delete drones from game (this is actually what they did). Drones should NOT be auto-aggro'ed as they are part or entire DPS of a ship. If drones can be killed, well then allow rats to destroy turrets and bay. As a gallente, this is exactly the same thing. Drones are 75/100% of a droneboat DPS. |
La'Krul
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 01:31:00 -
[537] - Quote
Conan edogawa wrote:Mund Richard wrote:Conan edogawa wrote:anishamora wrote:Anyone saying "HTFU, L2P" has obviously never used drones since the change was implemented or just uses sentries with marginal success. Or are using HAM Tengu which seems to be the fix for every kind of problem when I read the forum Which is pretty much the "never used drones since the change", ain't it now? Well, I also hear good things about AC Mach running away from the rats, as long as you keep webs off of you, and that one has a drone bay you can load with T1/lights for dire need. People says to use this or this ship. But the real problem is to fix those drones. Escaping auto-aggro by using other ships is the same thing as telling CCP to delete drones from game (this is actually what they did). Drones should NOT be auto-aggro'ed as they are part or entire DPS of a ship. If drones can be killed, well then allow rats to destroy turrets and bay. As a gallente, this is exactly the same thing. Drones are 75/100% of a droneboat DPS.
I concur. Eve is in a really good place right now, I haven't enjoyed it this much probably ever. The direction of the game (aside from the incremental dumbing down that seems to be happening) has been fantastic but there still seems to be some devs at CCP who have no idea what they are doing.
Imagine if they released a new change with the last expansion that meant everytime you fired your lasers 1m isk was removed from your wallet. Would people like that I wonder? No, it would be irritating, counterproductive and ludicrous - well, that's what happens every time I use my drones - several of them die. Sentries are 2m a piece in null sec - thanks very much for that one CCP! |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
124
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 01:52:00 -
[538] - Quote
CCP has historically been very iffy on drones, but IMO I cannot fault their current policy. They've added drone damage mods, T2 drone applied damage mods, and nerfed the historically no drawback missile fits.
Ishtar probably has one of the highest ranged damage fits for a cruiser, typically fires a good damage type (thermal) and has excellent protection against damps, jams and TD, so they have 2 drawbacks - 1 easy to lock down with probes and 2 - can be shot in space.
There is no way IMO CCP can keep the current relative performance of drones without the drone aggro being such as it is now, otherwise it would be viewed as thoroughly overpowered.
As an amusing aside, I setup in sansha space, and I dragged with me 30mil isk in drones, and 114mil isk in faction ammo. I imagine that there will be plenty of drones left when that ammo is gone.
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auraofblade
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 04:07:00 -
[539] - Quote
Man, this Drone change reminds me of GW2 Ranger Pets. Theoretically usable, but they die in any intensive encounter, are a large chunk of your DPS and you have little to no ability to save them even if you try. Actually, Ranger Pets are better since you don't have a replacement fee, but drones can cost you millions. Per mission. And only if there are even drones to buy as replacements in the first place.
If there was a reasonable way for me to bail out my drones that are 65km out, I'd do so even if I end up sacrificing tons of damage for it. I want to be able to make that choice. Instead, I end up trying to tank the entire pocket aggro, only to blink and have my drones get picked off before I have a chance to react.
In small scale PvP, the counterplay is honestly better. My opponent can opt to train some of their DPS on the drones, in return for me not taking as much damage. They can fit a Smartbomb, which is inherently kinda bad against anything other than drones. Additionally, in PvP I'm already expecting losses no matter what the situation is. By contrast, in PvE the death of your drones is basically a forgone conclusion and there's no reasonable way to prevent that outcome, nor does the death of your drones come at a price to your opponent(s). |
Arturo Min
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 05:26:00 -
[540] - Quote
this new AI infuriates both sides of the fence,
droneboats are obsolete and pvpers wanting to gank in paper tanked ships in sites are obsolete
roll back please! |
|
Claire Raynor
NovaGear
79
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 08:57:00 -
[541] - Quote
Hi All,
I've posted in this massive thread before - so you know I'd like drones to become viable again, (as a primary weapon), and for missions to be more fun solo, (against E War). This stuff needs fixed up so that it is good.
I wanted to make the point though - that LvL 4s are now more fun than ever before for fleets, (IMO). We've had massive fun recently doing some of the ~8500LP LvL 4s. We're using missiles almost exclusivly - the RF Typhoons have dropped the non-missile part of their armament for reppers, (Cruise Missiles - the other weapon systems kinda suck in comparison now), and we are operating spider tanks, all armour - and using lots of utility Mids. Even our CNR is now armour tanked - but the utility Mids make it a lot of fun. Oddly enough we are only now using medium drones with much painters and webifiers - and the medium drones are used to mop up NPC battleships. Constant aggro shifting makes multiplayer PvE a lot of fun.
BUT. Solo play is yuk. Esspecially vs EWar enemies. And I still have no idea what a Drone boat will do solo - or even in a fleet?
When this all gets fixed - it would be nice if the new co-operative PvE could remain as good as it is now. But even if things were to revert back - we might still play this new way. We don't actually fit counter-measures to the NPC E-War. It is pointless. But force of numbers alows us to simply aknowledge one of our number is down for a bit whilst we take out the enemy EWar. Solo - I just don't see how this can be fun.
We've not tried micro-jump drive yet. We haven't tried non-missiles with tracking links / tracking computers. We are thinking of trying the Armour CNR with remote ECCM and sensor links . . .etc. At the moment - we are using masses of CAP boosters, Painters and Webs. The E-WAR countermeasures will not help us deal with close in NPCs. So we don't want to sacrifice that to counter E-War when simply having force of numbers already counters E-War - but simple force of numbers makes killing little close n fast ships still hard to deal with, (if we want to use medium drones - which we all like - so we use webs and painters - and the painters help the cruise missiles too).
Cheers |
Signal11th
The Retirement Club
888
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 09:07:00 -
[542] - Quote
Claire Raynor wrote:Hi All,
I've posted in this massive thread before - so you know I'd like drones to become viable again, (as a primary weapon), and for missions to be more fun solo, (against E War). This stuff needs fixed up so that it is good.
I wanted to make the point though - that LvL 4s are now more fun than ever before for fleets, (IMO). We've had massive fun recently doing some of the ~8500LP LvL 4s. We're using missiles almost exclusivly - the RF Typhoons have dropped the non-missile part of their armament for reppers, (Cruise Missiles - the other weapon systems kinda suck in comparison now), and we are operating spider tanks, all armour - and using lots of utility Mids. Even our CNR is now armour tanked - but the utility Mids make it a lot of fun. Oddly enough we are only now using medium drones with much painters and webifiers - and the medium drones are used to mop up NPC battleships. Constant aggro shifting makes multiplayer PvE a lot of fun.
BUT. Solo play is yuk. Esspecially vs EWar enemies. And I still have no idea what a Drone boat will do solo - or even in a fleet?
When this all gets fixed - it would be nice if the new co-operative PvE could remain as good as it is now. But even if things were to revert back - we might still play this new way. We don't actually fit counter-measures to the NPC E-War. It is pointless. But force of numbers alows us to simply aknowledge one of our number is down for a bit whilst we take out the enemy EWar. Solo - I just don't see how this can be fun.
We've not tried micro-jump drive yet. We haven't tried non-missiles with tracking links / tracking computers. We are thinking of trying the Armour CNR with remote ECCM and sensor links . . .etc. At the moment - we are using masses of CAP boosters, Painters and Webs. The E-WAR countermeasures will not help us deal with close in NPCs. So we don't want to sacrifice that to counter E-War when simply having force of numbers already counters E-War - but simple force of numbers makes killing little close n fast ships still hard to deal with, (if we want to use medium drones - which we all like - so we use webs and painters - and the painters help the cruise missiles too).
Cheers
My god don't use the word solo in these forums you'll get nothing but crap,
It's an MMo they will cry to have fun you have to mingle they will say..Please if you vaule your sanity don;t ever say you can have fun in EVE "ON YOUR OWN" man the shivers I'm having already.
PVP I enjoy with a group, PVE, the last thing I want to do is PVE with other people. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster. |
Claire Raynor
NovaGear
79
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 09:12:00 -
[543] - Quote
So I guess what I was saying is that NPC EWar is so OP that even if all the fleet was equipped with remote EWar counter measures - that would still only be enough to negate the ewar aplied against one of our fleet mates. Which is a waste of our Mids as they can be used for other stuff - and force of numbers would already negate NPC EWar anyway. A solo player wouldn't have enough Mids to counter EWar by themselves - (not sure about ECCM) - but tracking and dampening defo - and who cares about being painted.
How will they fix this? Diminishing returns on EWar applied - so that a single ship can counter the EWar of the NPCs they will fight??? sounds yuk - and would make countermeasures just whayyy too strong. . .i don't know.
Maybe a CAP Booster charge using Mid that acts as an electronic warfare countermeasure for a specific type of ewar? Crap idea - probably is - but. . ? Any thoughts,
At the moement - there doesn't sem much point to the countermeasures available. Please tell me I've missed something and that it's fixed already! But I don't think it is? |
Claire Raynor
NovaGear
79
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 09:14:00 -
[544] - Quote
Signal11th wrote:Claire Raynor wrote:Hi All,
I've poste I BLAH BLAH BLAH Cheers My god don't use the word solo in these forums you'll get nothing but crap, It's an MMo they will cry to have fun you have to mingle they will say..Please if you vaule your sanity don;t ever say you can have fun in EVE "ON YOUR OWN" man the shivers I'm having already. PVP I enjoy with a group, PVE, the last thing I want to do is PVE with other people.
Ha ha!! Nah - Solo is what you do when waiting for everyone to get ready for the roam in ten minutes - and an hour later you are still waiting!
Incursions are co-operative PvE too though
:) |
Conan edogawa
Confrerie de la Lumiere Confrerie de la Lumiere Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 09:40:00 -
[545] - Quote
Claire Raynor wrote:Signal11th wrote:Claire Raynor wrote:Hi All,
I've poste I BLAH BLAH BLAH Cheers My god don't use the word solo in these forums you'll get nothing but crap, It's an MMo they will cry to have fun you have to mingle they will say..Please if you vaule your sanity don;t ever say you can have fun in EVE "ON YOUR OWN" man the shivers I'm having already. PVP I enjoy with a group, PVE, the last thing I want to do is PVE with other people. Ha ha!! Nah - Solo is what you do when waiting for everyone to get ready for the roam in ten minutes - and an hour later you are still waiting! Incursions are co-operative PvE too though :)
This is so fu*** true except it's the same for every kind of activity you may want to start. "I'm here in 5 minutes" he said. "Just a few jump" he said. |
amurder Hakomairos
Fellowship Of Lost Souls Rebel Alliance of New Eden
20
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 12:21:00 -
[546] - Quote
If CCP had properly implemented this as a part of a full PvE refresh along with an update to the drone control interface the whole drone aggro problem could have been mitigated by introducing a new high slot module that is a long range remote repper that only works on drones. Instead we got this pile of fail that seems to have been done just so someone could check a box on their annual evaluation to say they completed a task. |
Bryla Jax
AeD Corp
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 14:00:00 -
[547] - Quote
amurder Hakomairos wrote:If CCP had properly implemented this as a part of a full PvE refresh along with an update to the drone control interface the whole drone aggro problem could have been mitigated by introducing a new high slot module that is a long range remote repper that only works on drones. Instead we got this pile of fail that seems to have been done just so someone could check a box on their annual evaluation to say they completed a task.
This.
|
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
112
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 17:02:00 -
[548] - Quote
amurder Hakomairos wrote:If CCP had properly implemented this as a part of a full PvE refresh along with an update to the drone control interface the whole drone aggro problem could have been mitigated by introducing a new high slot module that is a long range remote repper that only works on drones. Instead we got this pile of fail that seems to have been done just so someone could check a box on their annual evaluation to say they completed a task.
But i dont want to fill my highslots with some stupid drone rr module.. Just saying its bad idea.. Unless someone gives me one more highslot in my BS.. But even then i would have better use for that "extra" high slot.. Maybe make one hidden "drone" highslot in all ships what can only be used for drone RR.. Yea thats just as bad idea.. |
Mund Richard
327
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 20:10:00 -
[549] - Quote
Keko Khaan wrote:But i dont want to fill my highslots with some stupid drone rr module.. Just saying its bad idea.. Unless someone gives me one more highslot in my BS.. To have an option to do so wouldn't be bad.
But to make it semi-required because of how stuff work would be bad.
Flying a Domi because of the full rack of bonused guns gattling goodness (while shield tanking...). If I didn't care about the hardpoints, I would fly a Rattlesnake instead, that has two utility highs. >> "We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Including NPC EWAR getting the stacking penalty? Would be awesome to have a cap on how far they can reduce my lock range (not 10km from 100 in a BS) or optimal+falloff with TD. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
125
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 01:04:00 -
[550] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Keko Khaan wrote:But i dont want to fill my highslots with some stupid drone rr module.. Just saying its bad idea.. Unless someone gives me one more highslot in my BS.. To have an option to do so wouldn't be bad. But to make it semi-required because of how stuff work would be bad. Flying a Domi because of the full rack of bonused guns gattling goodness (while shield tanking... ). If I didn't care about the hardpoints, I would fly a Rattlesnake instead, that has two utility highs.
its not necessary for a domi to RR its drones in L4 missions. I still haven't lost any post CCP fixing the fullstage aggro bugs.
Note that drone aggro is trivialised by (a) MJDs or (b) just bringing 750+ dps. ie I can drop sentries at the beacon and clear most pockets without baying the sentries, so long as I shoot the frigates first. Other than TD, e-war is trivialised by counter fitting with 2 appropriate modules, and quite frankly TD is close to trivialised by droneboats too.
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anishamora
Atelierele Grivita
17
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 09:29:00 -
[551] - Quote
Tauranon wrote:CCP has historically been very iffy on drones, but IMO I cannot fault their current policy. They've added drone damage mods, T2 drone applied damage mods, and nerfed the historically no drawback missile fits.
Ishtar probably has one of the highest ranged damage fits for a cruiser, typically fires a good damage type (thermal) and has excellent protection against damps, jams and TD, so they have 2 drawbacks - 1 easy to lock down with probes and 2 - can be shot in space.
There is no way IMO CCP can keep the current relative performance of drones without the drone aggro being such as it is now, otherwise it would be viewed as thoroughly overpowered.
As an amusing aside, I setup in sansha space, and I dragged with me 30mil isk in drones, and 114mil isk in faction ammo. I imagine that there will be plenty of drones left when that ammo is gone.
The Isthar itself is just a side-effect, CCP shouldn't nerf a whole weapon system just because some drone boats are OP or some players were AFK-ing L4s or plexes. The fixes should be surgical not butcher-y. |
Mund Richard
327
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 10:45:00 -
[552] - Quote
Tauranon wrote:Mund Richard wrote:Keko Khaan wrote:But i dont want to fill my highslots with some stupid drone rr module.. Just saying its bad idea.. Unless someone gives me one more highslot in my BS.. To have an option to do so wouldn't be bad. But to make it semi-required because of how stuff work would be bad. Flying a Domi because of the full rack of bonused guns gattling goodness (while shield tanking... ). If I didn't care about the hardpoints, I would fly a Rattlesnake instead, that has two utility highs. its not necessary for a domi to RR its drones in L4 missions. I still haven't lost any post CCP fixing the fullstage aggro bugs. Note that drone aggro is trivialised by (a) MJDs or (b) just bringing 750+ dps. ie I can drop sentries at the beacon and clear most pockets without baying the sentries, so long as I shoot the frigates first. Other than TD, e-war is trivialised by counter fitting with 2 appropriate modules, and quite frankly TD is close to trivialised by droneboats too. Had my drone shot at, but haven't lost any in L4s this year. Though my drone-using habits changed quite a bit. So agreed on RR not being outright necessary.
Also agreed on how enough dps means you don't have to bother with stuff that are hassle, and also leads to a better drone experience. Makes the hurdle a bit harder for new players, makes the Domi desirable over a Rattlesnake (for being able to snipe incoming frigs), and the second one ain't something I disapprove of.
E-War being trivialised by counter-fitting... Now on that I'm not so sure, NPC Damp is stronger than player SeBos, so when 4+ are on you, you are screwed anyways, scripting for range makes lock-times long, scripting for resolution when they are outside lock range is silly.
Moved to Gurista space to avoid most of the Damp, with the new skill jamming on a Navy Domi seems to be ok even with no ECCM. Do get hit sometimes, but not chained for over a minute, and if they fail to get me the first cycle (for which my chances seem fair), I can kill the non-BS ones easy, unlike with damp that's getting applied more often from the start (at least to my experience). >> "We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Including NPC EWAR getting the stacking penalty? Would be awesome to have a cap on how far they can reduce my lock range (not 10km from 100 in a BS) or optimal+falloff with TD. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
126
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Posted - 2013.02.15 11:46:00 -
[553] - Quote
anishamora wrote:
The Isthar itself is just a side-effect, CCP shouldn't nerf a whole weapon system just because some drone boats are OP or some players were AFK-ing L4s or plexes. The fixes should be surgical not butcher-y.
I remember being a drone boat player when there was
* no navy domi * no t2 omnis * no t2 drone link augs * no DDAs * only damage bonuser was rigs, and the rigs only affected sentries * the rigs have a cpu penalty which was awful for the ishtar, which has limited cpu.
as a direct result of the changes I can hit 800 dps with a ranged ishtar without even really thinking about the fit, it has 200k per unit cpu rigs, not 20mil per unit sentry rigs, my nice flexible 5x350mm armor dominix fit went from 930 dps to 990 dps with even better improvements midfield and towards my drone control limit, and I was able to completely eliminate faction from my domi fit - I used to have to use 2 faction hardeners to squeeze under the cpu limit.
this latest change came with the final improvement to DDAs to make them equivalent in boosting amount to other damage mods, and for a player with good skills, missions actually get done faster, and plexes vastly so with the ishtar.
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Juwi Kotch
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
5
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Posted - 2013.02.15 12:30:00 -
[554] - Quote
I had to raise my standings to a corporation from zero to 6.67 for zero tax. After 25 lvl4 security missions during the last week I had achieved that goal.
I used a MJD Rattlesnake as a sentry drone boat. Over all those missions I lost 2 Warden II and 1 Garde II, and all three of them were lost due to inexperience and stupidity. If I would have been more focused, I would have lost none. I had to recall drones to the bay because they were going into armor not very often, on average probably once a mission.
So drones are not rendered useless with this new AI, just the contrary. They are very effective. "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime, and every kindness, we birth our future." Sonmi-451 |
Mund Richard
327
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Posted - 2013.02.15 12:33:00 -
[555] - Quote
The MJD breaks things hilariously, but I like to fly around without one.
In some missions, rats spawn in "random" directions 50-120 km away, which can make for boring downtime.
Plus the it's a battleship-only module, doesn't help an Ishtar or the new Prophecy. >> "We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Including NPC EWAR getting the stacking penalty? Would be awesome to have a cap on how far they can reduce my lock range (not 10km from 100 in a BS) or optimal+falloff with TD. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
40
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 14:06:00 -
[556] - Quote
Juwi Kotch wrote: So drones are not rendered useless with this new AI, just the contrary. They are very effective.
Only true for sentry drones. My heavy drone pure DPS alt Gila is unfortunately pretty useless right now. |
Conan edogawa
Confrerie de la Lumiere Confrerie de la Lumiere Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 22:13:00 -
[557] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Juwi Kotch wrote: So drones are not rendered useless with this new AI, just the contrary. They are very effective.
Only true for sentry drones. My heavy drone pure DPS alt Gila is unfortunately pretty useless right now.
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2013/07/1360966354-droneboats.jpg |
Annunaki soldier
Segmentum Solar Nulli Legio
66
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 22:18:00 -
[558] - Quote
testing on a dominix sentry inside forsaken hubs , sentries where getting agro all the time. Changed to TP less but still i got a sentry attacked on each spawn for the least 1 time. Ofc you dont lose something you just scoop and deploy again , but i dont think any other weapon system losing that much dps that many times as droneboats . Ride hard, live with passion-á |
Kandrew Dorak
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.16 09:23:00 -
[559] - Quote
I'm sure I'm repeating what lots of people have said. Every time I fly my Ishtar I hate the changes more and more. It's tedious as hell to deploy my drones, let them get a few shots off, and then pull them back when they get targeted. I can't kite damage at all anymore because as soon as I get too far from my drones they die before I can get back. At this point it's more tolerable and way more profitable to use a blaster boat and mindlessly chew through boring forsaken hubs. All this patch has done is to seriously nerf the enjoyment and profit of drone users leaving the tengu as the reigning kind of plex runners. PvP is enjoyable because I'm fighting players, not because I'm microing drones or whatever.
TL;DR I'm having less fun in Eve and my choices are more limited. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
40
|
Posted - 2013.02.16 09:49:00 -
[560] - Quote
Kandrew Dorak wrote:I'm sure I'm repeating what lots of people have said. Every time I fly my Ishtar I hate the changes more and more. It's tedious as hell to deploy my drones, let them get a few shots off, and then pull them back when they get targeted. I can't kite damage at all anymore because as soon as I get too far from my drones they die before I can get back.
Yeah, that's the thing. Sentries are working fine - possible with a DPS los due to redeployment unless used in a MJD sniper fit. Ships that are not designed to be played as a sitting duck can't use sentries well, though.
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Bryla Jax
AeD Corp
1
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Posted - 2013.02.21 13:54:00 -
[561] - Quote
Any change to this great and funny feature on latest patch? |
L0rdF1end
Mainly AFK
66
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 15:04:00 -
[562] - Quote
None that i've seen. Many many threads on this and still nothing from CCP.
Maybe we should burn Jita? :) |
Shadowschild
Black Lance Fidelas Constans
50
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 17:59:00 -
[563] - Quote
I think the current NPC AI is still in it's infancy. I'd like an actual challenge from them. You know some logistical cruisers, a mix of dampening / ecm / target painting & alot more warp scrambling not just from frigates. |
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
23
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 21:30:00 -
[564] - Quote
Shadowschild wrote:I think the current NPC AI is still in it's infancy. I'd like an actual challenge from them. You know some logistical cruisers, a mix of dampening / ecm / target painting & alot more warp scrambling not just from frigates.
*squints eyes* Not sure if trolling....
Right now they need to reduce the cost to build drones down to close to what missiles cost and give us the ability to load them into the drone bay from the cargo hold if they want them to get killed in these numbers to make it "more challenging or entertaining" for us.
Not that most care but I did go and cancel my account last month, still running out my time training, but there is a place there so you can tell them why you canceled.... felt good. I kinda hope they fix the drone homicide before my account time runs out. |
Orlacc
251
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 22:16:00 -
[565] - Quote
Was a least 10 times as much whining when the new inventory came out. Did they change that? Keep necroing this thread ad nauseum. |
Agrias Hellion
Diligentia Sodalitas
4
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 12:12:00 -
[566] - Quote
So basically people are saying the AI is not overkill because sentry drones are fine?
Please tell that to my drones I doubt it will cheer them up. I just lost another 6 drones, the ranges involved means you can't pull them back in time. Anything past 5km and they are dead before their shield is gone.
This is not fun, Tech 2 drones are not exactly the cheapest and it is predominantly the only way I use my ship. I doubt Sentries would have been much use in this pocket since you warp in and have 6 Guristas are you withing 10km.
This world collide segment will be the last mission to do, which leaves....not a lot else to do in Eve. So I guess my return to Eve will be cut short to one subscription month....again.
Absolutely unbelievable that CCP have kept this turd going without actually improving it, pretty much all the people I used to know are gone or sold their accounts. I just stubbornly refused to do so. I think I would rather roll a Panda and saw my ********* off with a spoon than give them any more money.
Who wants my stuff? |
Orlacc
255
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 17:42:00 -
[567] - Quote
Agrias Hellion wrote:So basically people are saying the AI is not overkill because sentry drones are fine?
Please tell that to my drones I doubt it will cheer them up. I just lost another 6 drones, the ranges involved means you can't pull them back in time. Anything past 5km and they are dead before their shield is gone.
This is not fun, Tech 2 drones are not exactly the cheapest and it is predominantly the only way I use my ship. I doubt Sentries would have been much use in this pocket since you warp in and have 6 Guristas are you withing 10km.
This world collide segment will be the last mission to do, which leaves....not a lot else to do in Eve. So I guess my return to Eve will be cut short to one subscription month....again.
Absolutely unbelievable that CCP have kept this turd going without actually improving it, pretty much all the people I used to know are gone or sold their accounts. I just stubbornly refused to do so. I think I would rather roll a Panda and saw my ********* off with a spoon than give them any more money.
Who wants my stuff?
I will take it. I assume it is in high sec. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
47
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 11:03:00 -
[568] - Quote
Agrias Hellion wrote:
Absolutely unbelievable that CCP have kept this turd going without actually improving it, pretty much all the people I used to know are gone or sold their accounts. I just stubbornly refused to do so. I think I would rather roll a Panda and saw my ********* off with a spoon than give them any more money.
You know what? People in Pandaland are making the exact same complaint about their friends all moving on.
I completely agree that the new AI need a lot of tweaking, mostly regarding mobile drones.
However, I'm rather in a game where people are leaving because it gets more complex, than in a game people are leaving because it gets dumbed down with every new patch. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1025
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 17:32:00 -
[569] - Quote
Duke Atreus wrote:Thanks CCP Yttcerbium.
TBH NPC AI shouldn't have been implemented until you revamped the PVE system seeing how the EWAR was too rampart with the number of ships and how drone users got the short end of the stick but I am glad you know there are still issues and are working on them.
Obviously it seems it might be a while yet before we see changes which is understandable so how about you revert it till then *wink wink* :P
Take care.
This.
This is not a signature. |
Bryla Jax
AeD Corp
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.26 12:06:00 -
[570] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Duke Atreus wrote:Thanks CCP Yttcerbium.
TBH NPC AI shouldn't have been implemented until you revamped the PVE system seeing how the EWAR was too rampart with the number of ships and how drone users got the short end of the stick but I am glad you know there are still issues and are working on them.
Obviously it seems it might be a while yet before we see changes which is understandable so how about you revert it till then *wink wink* :P
Take care. This.
Sadly, it's not gonna happen. Admit a mistake or a incomplete feature is a too hard choice for some unskilled developerss. |
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Dark Reignz
Four-Q
4
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 02:45:00 -
[571] - Quote
I started off a mission runner in high sec and I'd be facinated if Missions were to become more dynamic and closer to pvp.
However, my experience of being in low and null and being raped 1 v 1+ tells me that either NPC's will have to be dumbed down drastically or each room of missions / exploration sites will have to have npc numbers nerfed to 1 per room. That said, I guess it depends how close to pvp you want pve to be heh.
Make mission locations and content inc NPC's dynamic and throw in a few new ones altogether. Then add in the chance of escalations to faction (similar to exploration escas) and then mish running becomes exiting again.
Risk vs Reward through out the game also needs a major revamp. Even living in high sec, going into low for esca's. the reward is absolutely pitiful.
my 2p on that one :) |
Sturmwolke
372
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 11:28:00 -
[572] - Quote
Just dropping a note to say that both Sansha Centii Loyal Savage and Loyal Slavehunter elite frigate AIs are broken (from Amarr epic arc "Cowardly Commander"). These lazy bum elite frigates don't seem to prefer chasing drones, barely even acknowledging my drones even exist.
Won't bother to bug report, I *like* them being kind to my poor drones ... after all that abuse. If it's intentional, good ... if not, forget what I said, move along - nothing to read. |
Dante Uisen
Push button receive bacon
143
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 11:39:00 -
[573] - Quote
Bryla Jax wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Duke Atreus wrote:Thanks CCP Yttcerbium.
TBH NPC AI shouldn't have been implemented until you revamped the PVE system seeing how the EWAR was too rampart with the number of ships and how drone users got the short end of the stick but I am glad you know there are still issues and are working on them.
Obviously it seems it might be a while yet before we see changes which is understandable so how about you revert it till then *wink wink* :P
Take care. This. Sadly, it's not gonna happen. Admit a mistake or a incomplete feature is a too hard choice for some unskilled developerss.
I don't think it has anything to do with the developers, it's company policy. |
timmaeh
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 12:45:00 -
[574] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hello folks, We have been (silently) following several threads about NPC AI changes deployed in Retribution and we wanted to let you know of our stance on this. NPCs target and kill my drones all the time in PvE after Retribution
- We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely than just bland launch drones and forget about they exist until all NPCs are dead. Having NPCs engage your drones if they are your primary source of damage is to be expected and we expect play styles to adapt in consequence.
- However, there is a fine balance to be reached here, and while we want more challenge in PvE, we don't want drones to be insta-killed without you having time to do anything to prevent it. The changes deployed during Retribution were too extreme, which is why we deployed a patch on December, 19th to alleviate this issue.
Quote: NPCs will now only target drones in their size category.
- Elite frigates and cruisers NPCs will go for small drones and above.
- Frigates and Cruisers NPCs will go for medium drones and above.
- Battleship NPCs will go for large drones.
NPCs tracking disruption is too strong since Retribution
This is another bug which should have been fixed on December, the 12th. If you still are having issue with Tracking Disruption NPCs please let us know by filing bug reports with the implied NPC names.
Quote:
- Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship.
We hope that helps a bit.
What i take from this is, i should dump by drone skills and never look back... Why would i EVER! risk loosing drones/isk by doing missions, when i could fit a gun to a ship ?
It IS making drone boats 100% useless. To anyone besides those people who are so bored with the game, that the only thrill they can get out of the game is to live in the edge! with no noticable advantage of doing this stupidity..
I can for the life of me not understand why this is a good thing. All you will get from making these changes is less drone boats. First thing i will do is start training gunnery,, since you have been nerfing missiles ever since i started playing this game like non stop.
Why would anyone continue using drones, i dont see why. It is less dps terrible gameplay ( the drone ui is horrible ) and now you run the rish of loosing millions of isk by your drones getting owned instantly or atleast before you can react.
The dev did say that alphaing drones was not working as intended, but that doesnt really change the fact that when 8 elite frigs spawn and they all focus a heavy drone, it is going down.
I fail to see the upside i do. They nerf missile boats, fail to release more missile boats really limiting the use of them, they buff guns and now they nerf bat drones..
CCP seems to only want gun boats, atleast that is my analasis. I for the life of me cannot see why this would help the game at all..
on a mission where i get 1.5mill isk as reward and 1,5 mill as bonus and me loosing a heavy and a med i am down to only 1 mill reward in total..
2 secs while i start training guns lol.. This **** is gone for good. |
dexington
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
583
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 13:16:00 -
[575] - Quote
timmaeh wrote:It IS making drone boats 100% useless.
I would say they are less reliable, half the time they are okay and half the time they are not worth the trouble.
At the moment my biggest problem seem to be the e-war heavy missions, especially missions where you have multiple elite cruiser doing the e-war. Once you have 2-3 tracking disruptors on you, and you can apply any dps with guns, all you can use are light drones. The elite cruiser are going to target the light drones before you can kill them, and then recall/deploy game starts and with the heavy rep and high resist on elite cruiser it takes forever to kill them. I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
47
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 13:18:00 -
[576] - Quote
dexington wrote:timmaeh wrote:It IS making drone boats 100% useless. I would say they are less reliable, half the time they are okay and half the time they are not worth the trouble. At the moment my biggest problem seem to be the e-war heavy missions, especially missions where you have multiple elite cruiser doing the e-war. Once you have 2-3 tracking disruptors on you, and you can apply any dps with guns, all you can use are light drones. The elite cruiser are going to target the light drones before you can kill them, and then recall/deploy game starts and with the heavy rep and high resist on elite cruiser it takes forever to kill them.
You're talking about drones on gun boats though. Drone boats are boats that use drones as their primary weapon.
(Which are not 100% useless btw., but pretty much limited to sentries now.) |
dexington
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
583
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 13:34:00 -
[577] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:dexington wrote:timmaeh wrote:It IS making drone boats 100% useless. I would say they are less reliable, half the time they are okay and half the time they are not worth the trouble. At the moment my biggest problem seem to be the e-war heavy missions, especially missions where you have multiple elite cruiser doing the e-war. Once you have 2-3 tracking disruptors on you, and you can apply any dps with guns, all you can use are light drones. The elite cruiser are going to target the light drones before you can kill them, and then recall/deploy game starts and with the heavy rep and high resist on elite cruiser it takes forever to kill them. You're talking about drones on gun boats though. Drone boats are boats that use drones as their primary weapon. (Which are not 100% useless btw., but pretty much limited to sentries now.)
I'm talking about the myrmidon which i fly on a daily basis, which i consider a drone boat. I know that most of my damage i generated by the drones, but that is not going to stop me from utilizing the high slots. Actually using guns does help you with keeping the aggro, and i like having a few buttons to push while i'm ratting. I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
131
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 13:34:00 -
[578] - Quote
dexington wrote:timmaeh wrote:It IS making drone boats 100% useless. I would say they are less reliable, half the time they are okay and half the time they are not worth the trouble. At the moment my biggest problem seem to be the e-war heavy missions, especially missions where you have multiple elite cruiser doing the e-war. Once you have 2-3 tracking disruptors on you, and you can apply any dps with guns, all you can use are light drones. The elite cruiser are going to target the light drones before you can kill them, and then recall/deploy game starts and with the heavy rep and high resist on elite cruiser it takes forever to kill them.
A "drone boat" ie dominix goes through elite TD cruisers like a hot knife through butter. Takes 25 minutes to full clear sansha blockade.
I also don't understand why people are having this much trouble. 3 of the races have an 8-4-8 layout navy battleship gunboat with 125mbit bandwidth and spare drone spaces (ie they can bring 5 sentries, or at least 4 sentries in the basic version of the ship, and the other race (missiles) is not currently affected by TD.
|
Tauranon
Weeesearch
131
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 13:34:00 -
[579] - Quote
dexington wrote:
I'm talking about the myrmidon which i fly on a daily basis, which i consider a drone boat. I know that most of my damage i generated by the drones, but that is not going to stop me from utilizing the high slots. Actually using guns does help you with keeping the aggro, and i like having a few buttons to push while i'm ratting.
The myrmidon can use 4 sentries, with no bother at all. |
timmaeh
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 13:49:00 -
[580] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:dexington wrote:timmaeh wrote:It IS making drone boats 100% useless. I would say they are less reliable, half the time they are okay and half the time they are not worth the trouble. At the moment my biggest problem seem to be the e-war heavy missions, especially missions where you have multiple elite cruiser doing the e-war. Once you have 2-3 tracking disruptors on you, and you can apply any dps with guns, all you can use are light drones. The elite cruiser are going to target the light drones before you can kill them, and then recall/deploy game starts and with the heavy rep and high resist on elite cruiser it takes forever to kill them. You're talking about drones on gun boats though. Drone boats are boats that use drones as their primary weapon. (Which are not 100% useless btw., but pretty much limited to sentries now.)
It doesnt matter.. People are going to play less drone boats, simply because the drone gameplay is less engaging and does less dmg AND! now there is a financial risk..
People will just make an insane tank medium range gun ship and sit still and pwn people..
|
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Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
47
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 14:02:00 -
[581] - Quote
timmaeh wrote:[quote=Chi'Nane T'Kal]
It doesnt matter.. People are going to play less drone boats, simply because the drone gameplay is less engaging and does less dmg AND! now there is a financial risk..
I'm not seeing where there is a major difference between slecting a target for your sentries and pressing 'F' versus doing the same and pressing F1. There is less FLEXIBILITY for attacking smaller targets, because you cannot hotkey-attack with a single drone, that's true (and a bit annoying). When it comes to killing battleships, drones are certainly not less competitive unless compared with pure gank ships like the Mach.
I'm pretty sure that since moving to sentries on my Gila, my expenses are lower than the ammunition cost on my Talos used to be. (I only lost small and heavy drones so far, mainly because I tried to get them to work, where i shouldn't have bothered.)
Quote: People will just make an insane tank medium range gun ship and sit still and pwn people..
I'm curious as to which ship that would be. Generally i find drone boats superb when it comes to gank+tank, which is the main reason why i'm skilling towards a dual spider RS setup. I couldn't EFT up anything even halfway competitive without spending millions on deadspace stuff (except for dual spider domi, which is in the same league). |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
20
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 14:17:00 -
[582] - Quote
dexington wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:dexington wrote:timmaeh wrote:It IS making drone boats 100% useless. I would say they are less reliable, half the time they are okay and half the time they are not worth the trouble. At the moment my biggest problem seem to be the e-war heavy missions, especially missions where you have multiple elite cruiser doing the e-war. Once you have 2-3 tracking disruptors on you, and you can apply any dps with guns, all you can use are light drones. The elite cruiser are going to target the light drones before you can kill them, and then recall/deploy game starts and with the heavy rep and high resist on elite cruiser it takes forever to kill them. You're talking about drones on gun boats though. Drone boats are boats that use drones as their primary weapon. (Which are not 100% useless btw., but pretty much limited to sentries now.) I'm talking about the myrmidon which i fly on a daily basis, which i consider a drone boat. I know that most of my damage i generated by the drones, but that is not going to stop me from utilizing the high slots. Actually using guns does help you with keeping the aggro, and i like having a few buttons to push while i'm ratting.
if you're only using drones on the myrmidon you're doing it wrong. It's become a very viable bc for doing level 4s now it can field 4 sentries. Sure it won't be as good as the ships that can field 5, but it's still pretty good. |
Olga Umame
Kreos Heavy Unified Logistics Technologies
0
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Posted - 2013.03.01 06:51:00 -
[583] - Quote
So you want us to blob level 4 missions? PVP isn't 1 ship against a fleet. I totally understand that in your wall of text that comment about PVE should be training for PVP was a mistake. Because right now PVP is 200+ ships trying to find something to shoot up |
Signal11th
The Retirement Club
911
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Posted - 2013.03.01 08:41:00 -
[584] - Quote
Tauranon wrote:dexington wrote:timmaeh wrote:It IS making drone boats 100% useless. I would say they are less reliable, half the time they are okay and half the time they are not worth the trouble. At the moment my biggest problem seem to be the e-war heavy missions, especially missions where you have multiple elite cruiser doing the e-war. Once you have 2-3 tracking disruptors on you, and you can apply any dps with guns, all you can use are light drones. The elite cruiser are going to target the light drones before you can kill them, and then recall/deploy game starts and with the heavy rep and high resist on elite cruiser it takes forever to kill them. A "drone boat" ie dominix goes through elite TD cruisers like a hot knife through butter. Takes 25 minutes to full clear sansha blockade. I also don't understand why people are having this much trouble. 3 of the races have an 8-4-8 layout navy battleship gunboat with 125mbit bandwidth and spare drone spaces (ie they can bring 5 sentries, or at least 4 sentries in the basic version of the ship, and the other race (missiles) is not currently affected by TD.
Basically because people just get annoyed with something that used to take 5mins before and now take 15mins. Nobody likes having something take longer than it did before. Also a moments distraction can basically lose you all your DPS whihc this doesn't happen in a gun/missle boat. Another thing is if you are in 0.0 instead of just having to watch local/D-scan aggroo triggers etc etc you now pretty much have to constantly check drone aggro whilst doing all the above.
It just annoys people. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster. |
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