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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
322
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 16:02:00 -
[271] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Full room aggro vs damp spam.
Do you even know what NPC EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Do you even know what PvP EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Want me to show you?  You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |

Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
99
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 17:02:00 -
[272] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Full room aggro vs damp spam.
Do you even know what NPC EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Do you even know what PvP EWAR is or feels like since this patch? Want me to show you? 
I can see how that is in any way relevant to AI changes.
|

March rabbit
Aliastra
284
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 17:10:00 -
[273] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Full room aggro vs damp spam.
Do you even know what NPC EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Do you even know what PvP EWAR is or feels like since this patch? Want me to show you?  because in PVP you always engage when you "1 vs many" or "small fleet vs lots"  |

baltec1
Bat Country
3204
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:06:00 -
[274] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Full room aggro vs damp spam.
Do you even know what NPC EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Do you even know what PvP EWAR is or feels like since this patch? Want me to show you?  because in PVP you always engage when you "1 vs many" or "small fleet vs lots"  And you think you should shred your way through entire npc fleets with no effort?
Many other people have adapted to these changes, if you cant then bring a friend on the missions you cant figure out. |

Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
99
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:12:00 -
[275] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:March rabbit wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Full room aggro vs damp spam.
Do you even know what NPC EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Do you even know what PvP EWAR is or feels like since this patch? Want me to show you?  because in PVP you always engage when you "1 vs many" or "small fleet vs lots"  And you think you should shred your way through entire npc fleets with no effort? Many other people have adapted to these changes, if you cant then bring a friend on the missions you cant figure out.
Waiting on that fit/video.....
Everything you've suggested is poor theroycraft, which to anyone who has actually experienced it, knows to be false.
I had adapated, I didn't say I could do it - what I said was the required mechanics to actually do that mission are a) not fun, b) contrieved and c) a very bad side effect of otherwise managable AI changes.
As I say, I await an actual example of your adaptive brilliance....I won't hold my breath, however, because we all know it isn't coming. |

baltec1
Bat Country
3204
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:18:00 -
[276] - Quote
Quote: Waiting on that fit/video.....
Everything you've suggested is poor theroycraft, which to anyone who has actually experienced it, knows to be false.
I had adapated, I didn't say I could do it - what I said was the required mechanics to actually do that mission are a) not fun, b) contrieved and c) a very bad side effect of otherwise managable AI changes.
As I say, I await an actual example of your adaptive brilliance....I won't hold my breath, however, because we all know it isn't coming.
Edit: Your posts have a very strong ring of Mary Antoinette about them.
And your sound like the whines from miners about tanking their ships. Very well for damps use a blaster boat. |

Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
99
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:21:00 -
[277] - Quote
Please address the request for a boat capable of tanking serpentis at <15km. Note that'll be at LEAST 30 blaster boats you'll be needing to tank combined with a ~3 minute lock time on the frigs.
Go on, it'll be fun to see the fail you manage :D
Edit: Or better still, stop commenting in the AI feedback thread when it is obvious you've not experienced it in anger. |

baltec1
Bat Country
3204
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:30:00 -
[278] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Please address the request for a boat capable of tanking serpentis at <15km. Note that'll be at LEAST 30 blaster boats you'll be needing to tank combined with a ~3 minute lock time on the frigs.
Go on, it'll be fun to see the fail you manage :D
Edit: Or better still, stop commenting in the AI feedback thread when it is obvious you've not experienced it in
What a shock, yet another bear dismissing advice without even trying it and then insulting the person trying to help them. Also what the hell have you done yo your ship to get the locking time of a titan? |

Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
99
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:38:00 -
[279] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Please address the request for a boat capable of tanking serpentis at <15km. Note that'll be at LEAST 30 blaster boats you'll be needing to tank combined with a ~3 minute lock time on the frigs.
Go on, it'll be fun to see the fail you manage :D
Edit: Or better still, stop commenting in the AI feedback thread when it is obvious you've not experienced it in What a shock, yet another bear dismissing advice without even trying it and then insulting the person trying to help them. Also what the hell have you done yo your ship to get the locking time of a titan?
Once again, a perfect post showing you've NEVER engaged serp. rats. Or perhaps you don't understand how something as basic as damps work.
Either way....Bravo, bravo. |

Mistah Ewedynao
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
129
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:52:00 -
[280] - Quote
Quote:What a shock, yet another bear dismissing advice without even trying it and then insulting the person trying to help them. Also what the hell have you done yo your ship to get the locking time of a titan?
Even more shocking a Suicide Ganker giving advice on how to run missions in high sec. Troll much???
You try to lock a frigate with 10 NPC cruisers damping you and you'll see how hard it is to lock.
I am sure you are an expert on ganking defenseless ships so perhaps you should post where your expertise is welcome. C & P  |

baltec1
Bat Country
3204
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:53:00 -
[281] - Quote
Quote:
Once again, a perfect post showing you've NEVER engaged serp. rats.
Bravo, bravo.
Had a nightmare for them. Used to wipe out everything bc and below in a single volly. So with that in mind and your refusal to use blasters go for a tachyon mare, fit a micro jump drive and use the range advantage to volly the offending cruisers and frigates.
|

baltec1
Bat Country
3204
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:03:00 -
[282] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:baltec1 wrote:Quote:
Once again, a perfect post showing you've NEVER engaged serp. rats.
Bravo, bravo.
Had a nightmare for them. Used to wipe out everything bc and below in a single volly. So with that in mind and your refusal to use blasters go for a tachyon mare, fit a micro jump drive and use the range advantage to volly the offending cruisers and frigates. Yes, that was before the AI changes. Before full room aggro on warp in. Before 8-10 ships damp you constantly. That is the point, the side effect of the AI change has been to put NPC EWAR on steroids, when coupled with full room aggro at warp in, it is disproportionately silly. Previously you had specific groups and sporadic damping. Oh you had access to the micro jump drive before retribution?
Well if you dont want to use that tactic either then you can go for a close range pulse nightmare with extra tracking. |

Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
258
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:04:00 -
[283] - Quote
I did some testing over the weekend. And I have some numbers for missions that are pretty consistent. I also found that the new NPC AI actually makes AFK ratting more bottable.
L4 Hi sec Missions: drones will pull all aggro in 5 secs or less, often immediately. But no more than 5 secs. This depends on the main BS taking full aggro, then deploying drones. Once drones are in the sky - no matter what else has happended or is happening - drones will take all agrro in 5 secs or less. This gives you a few seconds, once in a while, to do some DPS, sort of the way being parallel/sequential damped while in a gun or missile boat works.
So, drone boats are screwed in many missions and it's a PITA to constantly recall/deploy them. Much loss of fun factor.
Ratting: I tried to manually behave the way I think a bot would have. I intentionally did not try to lock any ratz nor direct the drones in any way. I expected to lose drones like mad. I lost no drones. I made lots of Iskies.
I used a variation of a technique intended to AKF level Vs with a Rattlesnake that I was told about on these very forums a few years ago. But I used my RR Thanny: --> Using heavies (Ogres) set to focus fire and agressive: - fly to a system that you know the drones can pretty much handle the expected DPS - release drones and wait - drones take aggro - drones kill ratz - RR drones to full health - recall the drones and repeat
Botting just got a lot easier. You do not have to lock any ratz - they will auto-attack your drones and the drones will reciprocate. Personally, I'm thinking bot programmers are LOVING this change. The only way to make this easier/better for botters is to create looting drones !!! Yippee!
Is this what CCP intended ??? I know how to fix this. Make it so drones DO NOT pull NPC aggro so easily ... DOH ! |

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
323
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:12:00 -
[284] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Full room aggro vs damp spam.
Do you even know what NPC EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Do you even know what PvP EWAR is or feels like since this patch? Want me to show you?  I can't see how that is in any way relevant to AI changes.
Because the AI is still easier. Relevant because you still really haven't hit "hard mode" yet. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
323
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:16:00 -
[285] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:March rabbit wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Full room aggro vs damp spam.
Do you even know what NPC EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Do you even know what PvP EWAR is or feels like since this patch? Want me to show you?  because in PVP you always engage when you "1 vs many" or "small fleet vs lots"  And you think you should shred your way through entire npc fleets with no effort? Many other people have adapted to these changes, if you cant then bring a friend on the missions you cant figure out.
^ This. You can fly missions like World's Collide completely solo and with the right boat it's stupidly easy. IMHO, it's still harder than "The Assault" namely because you're up against two different kinds of enemy (different damage, different resists). You don't have to kill everything, of course, but it's still easy to do it solo.
All the missions are completely predictable. Now, they're unpredictable again. But I'll BET you every little isky I have that once you get used to them, they'll become predictable again.
But if you tried going up against the same size fleets of players as you do solo v. NPCs on these missions, you wouldn't stand a chance. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |

Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
100
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:34:00 -
[286] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:baltec1 wrote:Quote:
Once again, a perfect post showing you've NEVER engaged serp. rats.
Bravo, bravo.
Had a nightmare for them. Used to wipe out everything bc and below in a single volly. So with that in mind and your refusal to use blasters go for a tachyon mare, fit a micro jump drive and use the range advantage to volly the offending cruisers and frigates. Yes, that was before the AI changes. Before full room aggro on warp in. Before 8-10 ships damp you constantly. That is the point, the side effect of the AI change has been to put NPC EWAR on steroids, when coupled with full room aggro at warp in, it is disproportionately silly. Previously you had specific groups and sporadic damping. Oh you had access to the micro jump drive before retribution? Well if you dont want to use that tactic either then you can go for a close range pulse nightmare with extra tracking.
I dont think a NM can soak the pain required to face them point blank. I cant fly it, but the incoming DPS is pretty special, tore strips off my SNI previously and that has a rather good tank indeed.
@Remiel Pollard Comparing PvE to PvP is simply ridiculous and I shant address it further with you. I was also unaware the blobbing and gate camps are the new yardstick for 'hard mode' thanks for clearing that up. |

Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
570
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:37:00 -
[287] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:^ This. You can fly missions like World's Collide completely solo and with the right boat it's stupidly easy. IMHO, it's still harder than "The Assault" namely because you're up against two different kinds of enemy (different damage, different resists). You don't have to kill everything, of course, but it's still easy to do it solo.
It depends largely where you are doing your missions. It's an old and well-known fact that space is not created equal. Missioning for one faction is often harder than for another, based on the type of rats you get. Yes, some missions are doable. And some missions are now absurdly difficult, so much so that risk far outweighs the reward.
Quote:All the missions are completely predictable. Now, they're unpredictable again. But I'll BET you every little isky I have that once you get used to them, they'll become predictable again.
We are agreed then, the AI change failed miserably! After all, wasn't the whole point of it to make missions less boring and predictable?
Quote:But if you tried going up against the same size fleets of players as you do solo v. NPCs on these missions, you wouldn't stand a chance.
I don't suppose you are looking for anything deeper and more meaningful than "Well, duh?" Because I got nothing. |

baltec1
Bat Country
3206
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:50:00 -
[288] - Quote
Quote:
I dont think a NM can soak the pain required to face them point blank. I cant fly it, but the incoming DPS is pretty special, tore strips off my SNI previously and that has a rather good tank indeed.
@Remiel Pollard Comparing PvE to PvP is simply ridiculous and I shant address it further with you. I was also unaware the blobbing and gate camps are the new yardstick for 'hard mode' thanks for clearing that up.
Well theres a blaster protius. Smaller sig, faster, great damage and can tank. Slap on an afterburner and you shouldn't have too many issues. Or go vindicator and just nuke everything. |

EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
343
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:54:00 -
[289] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:We are agreed then, the AI change failed miserably!  After all, wasn't the whole point of it to make missions less boring and predictable?
Ah jeez, you got me.
Let's change it back so everything is more boring and predictable again and save everyone the effort. |

Mund Richard
27
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:57:00 -
[290] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Oh you had access to the micro jump drive before retribution?
Again, missions where you warp in, and have many scram frigs on you auto-engage. It's supposed to shut down the MJD...
baltec1 wrote:Well theres a blaster protius. Smaller sig, faster, great damage and can tank. Slap on an afterburner and you shouldn't have too many issues. Or go vindicator and just nuke everything. That works, agreed. My question: Should a T3 be the entry level for L4s? Sarcasm can be like drugs. |

Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
571
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:03:00 -
[291] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Well theres a blaster protius. Smaller sig, faster, great damage and can tank. Slap on an afterburner and you shouldn't have too many issues. Or go vindicator and just nuke everything.
Yeah, because everyone can easily afford multi-billion ISK ships, and has skills needed to make use of them (like Vindi). How about you try doing L4s with imperfect (seriously imperfect, bordering on weak) skills and using a T1 battleship. Especially a T1 Gallente battleship (which limits your choice to Mega, Domi and Hype). What's that? Adapt by cross-training for another 2 months? Yeah, I'll get right on that, says the new player clicking "unsubscribe" button. |

Mistah Ewedynao
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
129
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:12:00 -
[292] - Quote
Quote:How about you try doing L4s with imperfect (seriously imperfect, bordering on weak) skills and using a T1 battleship. Especially a T1 Gallente battleship (which limits your choice to Mega, Domi and Hype). What's that? Adapt by cross-training for another 2 months? Yeah, I'll get right on that, says the new player clicking "unsubscribe" button.
While I agree the combo of the drone changes, incessant eWar and full room aggro is messed up, I do not feel that a pilot with poor core skills should be able to run Lvl 4 missions solo.
That is one of the problems that I think CCP is trying to cure, it's just too much curre at once. |

Pretty GuyYeah
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:13:00 -
[293] - Quote
Drones need a compensation for the changes. Either buff them or revamp the system entirely.
// Pretty GuyYeah |

Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
100
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:20:00 -
[294] - Quote
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:Quote:How about you try doing L4s with imperfect (seriously imperfect, bordering on weak) skills and using a T1 battleship. Especially a T1 Gallente battleship (which limits your choice to Mega, Domi and Hype). What's that? Adapt by cross-training for another 2 months? Yeah, I'll get right on that, says the new player clicking "unsubscribe" button. While I agree the combo of the drone changes, incessant eWar and full room aggro is messed up, I do not feel that a pilot with poor core skills should be able to run Lvl 4 missions solo. That is one of the problems that I think CCP is trying to cure, it's just too much curre at once.
I don't know it was ever a problem. I remember how long those things took with low skills.
Achieveble, yes, but took AGES. |

Mistah Ewedynao
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
129
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:29:00 -
[295] - Quote
Quote:I don't know it was ever a problem. I remember how long those things took with low skills.
Achieveble, yes, but took AGES.
Yeah agreed. I would fly with a friend who had a T1 BS and I had an SB. Still took a LONG time. Lots of young characters who were flying L4's solo with borderline skills, or even less than borderline are in bad shape now.
I feel for them but I remember flying LOTS of L3's solo and L4's with a friend before I ever tried a L4 solo.
But I always was a cauttious guy........ |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
462
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:37:00 -
[296] - Quote
It is pretty sad when a member of the CSM who supposedly represents high sec claimed there is no defect in the AI that people can use to still run drone missions. When that loophole is closed it is lights out for us.
Pretty much indicates that it is completely over for high sec mission runners.
Oh, and ISD, before you think about banning me for trolling, ranting, or personal attacks on a CSM member, you might want to actually read the CSM member's statement about there not being a loophole, then me posting the dev exact statement about the loophole existing, and highlighting the part about the loophole the CSM member says does not exist. |

Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
100
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:42:00 -
[297] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:It is pretty sad when a member of the CSM who supposedly represents high sec claimed there is no defect in the AI that people can use to still run drone missions. When that loophole is closed it is lights out for us.
Pretty much indicates that it is completely over for high sec mission runners.
Precision missiles are holding strong atm. 3 shotting elite frigs is fine by me. |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
462
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:43:00 -
[298] - Quote
Oh, and before I get banned and can't post (we must not state facts on the forums, especially when they make certain people look bad), how do I contact Internal Affairs? |

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
462
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:44:00 -
[299] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:It is pretty sad when a member of the CSM who supposedly represents high sec claimed there is no defect in the AI that people can use to still run drone missions. When that loophole is closed it is lights out for us.
Pretty much indicates that it is completely over for high sec mission runners.
Precision missiles are holding strong atm. 3 shotting elite frigs is fine by me.
Sorry, you are correct.
I should have stated it is over for any mission runner who relies on drones. Tengu pilots of course can keep rocking and rolling. |

Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
573
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:49:00 -
[300] - Quote
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:While I agree the combo of the drone changes, incessant eWar and full room aggro is messed up, I do not feel that a pilot with poor core skills should be able to run Lvl 4 missions solo.
Realize just how long it takes to get "core" skills up. You may not remember, but think back when your character was 1-3 months old. Doing a single L4, if it was doable at all, would take you a VERY long time. I remember doing "Duo of Death", arguably the easiest L4 there is (just 2 big battleships with colossal tanks). My first attempt, I couldn't even break their tanks, using proper ammo and drones. Spent the next 5 days skilling up a bit more, and finally managed to do it. As it was, it took about 40 mins to do the mission, and payout from bounties was 2 million ISK. Yet you feel that a new pilot shouldn't be able to do it? Why the heck not? It's not like ISK/hr is great when you are low SP. In fact, until you hit about 6-8 mil (3-4 months' training, roughly) your income is absolutely pathetic.
And once your skills are good, you usually move on from missions anyway! You go into WHs or start running more profitable plexes or what have you, or join FW and farm LP there. Etc., etc.
In a way, missions are there FOR new players, who still need structure and guidance more than anything, so that they don't become hopelessly lost. Missions are also incredibly helpful with immersion and getting the player into EVE lore. You just don't get that connection doing anything else in the game. And what this change does is build a giant 100 foot wall covered with barbed wire and alligators perched at the top, before a player can go from L3 to L4. Who does that help? I mean, really, who benefits? OK, that's debatable. But who definitely gets pummeled by this? You guessed it, new players! And at the same time CCP is moaning that the new player retention isn't good and they're working on improving it? Well, how about improving it by NOT kicking new players in the face with this stuff when they're just getting into the game? |
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