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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Hevymetal
POT Corp Semper Ardens Alliance
27
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Posted - 2012.12.04 23:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
My $.02 for what it's worth, on the new usefulness of drones in PVE. As with everything else that changes in this game, some for the good, some for the bad "adapt or die" or so it has been said.
A tactical change is indeed now required since drones are now appearing to be nothing more then cannon fodder. They still have usefulness, just not in a "set and forget" mode as most are used to. Most people will look at this list and go "Well DUH" but hopefully someone MAY walk away having learned something.
My initial observations after patch:
Cannon Fodder: I have found that carrying a bay full of small T1's, cheap, and liberally deploying them at opportune times during combat will now divert DPS (not sure but the NPCs appear to be webbing/neuting drones too but I am unable to verify this) away from you and onto the drones allowing you precious seconds to rep/recharge/reload/warp and GTFO. Leave them behind, they are expendable.
Emergency Target Disposal: Shields failed, into armor in your shield tank? Need to warp but can't, scrammed? Deploy the T2 drones and attack the scrammer, allowing you to escape. Forget about the drones you can collect them later.
Structure Disposal: After everything is dead it's still easier to send out some T2 ogres and say "Kill" while you forget about them and salvage/loot/get more snacks.
Battleships: Still usable on Battleships and Cruisers it seems. Don't even think about deploying them with frigates on grid as they don't last long and they will be gone before you realize it.
Deploy, attack a target, recall: Keep an eye on the damage the drone is taking and recall them back to drone bay often and allow them to recharge shields before deploying them again.
Small drones are faster: Well, DUH. Faster drones should help in avoiding damage and will allow you to get them back to the safety of your bay, hopefully before they pop.
* Deploy drones, let them get aggro, recall them, wait till you get aggro, then deploy again: Haven't personally tested yet, although this appears to be a verified workaround to the new AI that has to be repeated for every wave of enemy NPCs. It's not the most efficient way of working around the new game mechanic but it appears to work.
I'm sure there will be more insightful input and hints/tactics from the enlightened forum members here.
DISCUSS
/slips into flame resistant siut.
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Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
129
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Posted - 2012.12.04 23:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP should just remove drones from the game and get it over with. I could use the SP refund for play styles they still consider kosher. Like shooting rocks all day. EvE Forum Bingo |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1823
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:CCP should just remove drones from the game and get it over with. I could use the SP refund for play styles they still consider kosher. Like shooting rocks all day. EVE is harsh and cold. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Kagumichan
Deorbit Burners Session Change In Progress Alliance
2
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Posted - 2012.12.04 23:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
The drone tactic saved my Rokh earlier.
Doing The Assault, level 4, Serpentis... upon warping in the entire room aggroed immediately, 6 sensor dampeners dropped my locking range down to 18k and then the dampers flew around me at 30k, whilst two frigs came in and warp scrambled me. The moment I let out the drones to blow up the scramblers everything, except the scrambling frigs, shot the drones and started popping them. That left me with two options:
1. Sit there and die 2. Drop all my drones and pray to the almighty God of pure luck that either my drones could take the scramble frigs off before they all blew up, or that the scrambling frigs would switch targets.
By pure luck, option 2 happened just as my hull was buckling, and my brave Warrior II's stayed behind and sacrificed themselves whilst I, now looking like a giant flaming fireball, went to go and pay a 9 million isk repair bill, having been completely unable to kill or even lock onto a target in that mission.
A friend earlier actually spent about 2 hours doing a mission in his tengu because for only about 30 seconds every 10 minutes he was jammed from ewar.
The new AI is very nice, it makes things more fun, but I don't think these mission were play-tested to make sure they were still doable solo before it was applied. |
Edey
Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2012.12.04 23:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Now that I can't do L4 missions with my drones, can I have a skills remap?
No, this is not a joke or a troll. I really want a remap, this is fair. In any other game when devs nerf something to hell they give you a respec so you have a choice. Having mostly drone skills cuts your ability to do anything right now. |
Destru Kaneda
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
144
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
No Music for robots, geeks, hackers, and nerds. Nerdiest homepage on the internet? |
Some Rando
University of Caille Gallente Federation
214
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Posted - 2012.12.04 23:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kagumichan wrote:I don't think these mission were play-tested to make sure they were still doable solo before it was applied. Or maybe CCP is trying to tell you something... |
Pyre leFay
The Scope Gallente Federation
49
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Did they give remaps when they made doomsdays single target? Did they give remaps when they made supers fighter and bomber only? Adapt. |
starbelt stacy
Project-Gonk
3
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Posted - 2012.12.04 23:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
Pyre leFay wrote:Did they give remaps when they made doomsdays single target? Did they give remaps when they made supers fighter and bomber only? Adapt.
and by adapt you mean sit in station and train up for another 1-3 months for something else to do in eve as your chosen profession while you pay for your sub???
meanwhile back in reality....... Sack the dumb mofo decided to nerf level 4's? .... again!!! |
Landrae
Sacred Templars Unclaimed.
390
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
Pyre leFay wrote:Did they give remaps when they made doomsdays single target? Did they give remaps when they made supers fighter and bomber only? Adapt or GTFO.
FTFY Welcome to Eve Online |
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1900
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Some Rando wrote:Kagumichan wrote:I don't think these mission were play-tested to make sure they were still doable solo before it was applied. Or maybe CCP is trying to tell you something...
Not sure about that. They know subscribers would sooner leave the game before being forced to put up with the fine examples of humanity found in this game.
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Merouk Baas
48
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Posted - 2012.12.04 23:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
Oh, it was tested. And feedback was given. And they pushed it anyway.
EDIT: Posters above mean that maybe CCP doesn't want us to solo level 4 missions. |
Kagumichan
Deorbit Burners Session Change In Progress Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Some Rando wrote:Or maybe CCP is trying to tell you something...
Well I can understand if it was put in to promote social play, to get people to go together to do missions, but really if you have that many people around to go do level 4 missions with that level of difficulty, you may as well all go and do vanguard incursions instead since they offer much more reward in terms of isk and LP. As it is, having this kind of AI mixed with that kind ewar makes level 4's pointless/impossible for solo play, which in turn stops people doing them, which in turn makes them pointless and obsolete. |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
118
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Merouk Baas wrote:Oh, it was tested. And feedback was given. And they pushed it anyway. EDIT: Posters above mean that maybe CCP doesn't want us to solo level 4 missions.
and CCP maintains the course....
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Hevymetal
POT Corp Semper Ardens Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Merouk Baas wrote:Oh, it was tested. And feedback was given. And they pushed it anyway. EDIT: Posters above mean that maybe CCP doesn't want us to solo level 4 missions.
Don't know if that was their intention, but it sure will have that effect.
It doesn't make it impossible to solo a Lvl4 but it sure lowers the ISK/Hr. generated and greatly increases the chance of getting popped if soloing.
It also completely flushed any old tactics/habits that players used with drones before the patch down the drain.
I also believe this result may have the intended/unintended consequence of promoting alot more meta-gaming. Everyone needs another DPS alt and while you at it throw in a Logi alt too
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Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
560
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
Did this really need another thread?
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Riddick Liddell
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
29
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:Did this really need another thread?
It did. You replied. |
Merouk Baas
48
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
No, it did not. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1823
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
Hevymetal wrote:Merouk Baas wrote:Oh, it was tested. And feedback was given. And they pushed it anyway. EDIT: Posters above mean that maybe CCP doesn't want us to solo level 4 missions. Don't know if that was their intention, but it sure will have that effect. It doesn't make it impossible to solo a Lvl4 but it sure lowers the ISK/Hr. generated and greatly increases the chance of getting popped if soloing. It also completely flushed any old tactics/habits that players used with drones before the patch down the drain. I also believe this result may have the intended/unintended consequence of promoting alot more meta-gaming. Everyone needs another DPS alt and while you at it throw in a Logi alt too Oh ho, encouraging alt account proliferation, eh. I see where this is going Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
317
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
This is the only game I've ever played that relied so heavily on having multiple accounts. If high sec mission running to generate isk for my PVP fun now requires logistics, e-war or aggro alts then I'll pass and find another game. What you want is irrelevant, what you've chosen is at hand. |
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starbelt stacy
Project-Gonk
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:This is the only game I've ever played that relied so heavily on having multiple accounts. If high sec mission running to generate isk for my PVP fun now requires logistics, e-war or aggro alts then I'll pass and find another game.
the idea is to force you to buy PLEX.... but i think you have got the idea now. Sack the dumb mofo decided to nerf level 4's? .... again!!! |
Kagumichan
Deorbit Burners Session Change In Progress Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
starbelt stacy wrote:the idea is to force you to buy PLEX.... but i think you have got the idea now.
and if you could actually do level 4's to make enough money to afford a PLEX to be able to do level 4's that would be a great idea. |
Xearal
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
407
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
OR.. you could you know.. adapt..
Wh residents have been putting up with the sleeper AI for ages.. I've been daytripping in w-space myself once in a while, and I've found no trouble at all with my drones vs the sleeper Ai.. it just requires a little more thinking, instead of just.. warp in, get agro, release drones.. get snack, come back, go get coffee you forgot, come back again, have a nice sip, go to next room, repeat combat actions, get noctis alt, begin salvaging..
now it actually requires you to think a bit. As for serpentis lockdown.. I've found an afterburner and some close range firepower works wonders when you get sensor damped.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1824
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:13:00 -
[24] - Quote
Kagumichan wrote:starbelt stacy wrote:the idea is to force you to buy PLEX.... but i think you have got the idea now. and if you could actually do level 4's to make enough money to afford a PLEX to be able to do level 4's that would be a great idea. He meant pay CCP money for plex, not buy plex with isk.... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Mire Stoude
Antelope with Night Vision Goggles
22
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:CCP should just remove drones from the game and get it over with. I could use the SP refund for play styles they still consider kosher. Like shooting rocks all day. Yep. I was a drone user as soon as I found they did all the fighting for me while my t1 imicus could mine rocks. My main mission runner for a long time was a domi. My favorite pvp boat was a dual rep and nos domi (before the nerf). Then I realized how much dps I was losing waiting for drones to get to their target. So I moved onto sentries... but they came with their own drawbacks. After that I eliminated the middle man and just trained guns/missiles and never regretted it. The only drones I find useful today are light ecms and t2 warriors (cool story bro).
So yah, just get rid of them, I can put the skills to use elsewhere. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
380
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
Xearal wrote:OR.. you could you know.. adapt..
Wh residents have been putting up with the sleeper AI for ages.. I've been daytripping in w-space myself once in a while, and I've found no trouble at all with my drones vs the sleeper Ai.. it just requires a little more thinking, instead of just.. warp in, get agro, release drones.. get snack, come back, go get coffee you forgot, come back again, have a nice sip, go to next room, repeat combat actions, get noctis alt, begin salvaging..
now it actually requires you to think a bit. As for serpentis lockdown.. I've found an afterburner and some close range firepower works wonders when you get sensor damped.
Tanking the assault at close range didn't end well on the test server for me. Decoy drone plan it is. As for thinking, Wait for red to appear, recall, relaunch actually counts as thinking now? Standards have really fallen. |
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ISD Cura Ursus
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
30
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:34:00 -
[27] - Quote
Merged in duplicate thread re: drones and new AI.
ISD Cura Ursus Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Kagumichan
Deorbit Burners Session Change In Progress Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:45:00 -
[28] - Quote
Xearal wrote:As for serpentis lockdown.. I've found an afterburner and some close range firepower works wonders when you get sensor damped.
Yup, 'cos charging at 10 megathrons that are sitting 60k away whilst in a battleship will totally not take 30 minutes and burn all your tank and cap.
If I remember, missions are meant to ease players into Eve's battle system and get them used to tougher and tougher situations through the different levels. Get used to modules and guns and different ship bonuses etc. to use in the 'real Eve' where you blow up people or do incursions, they also serve as a small isk flow for when you don't have anything else to do... like blowing up people or doing incursions (or mining). So now, if your friends are offline and you're sitting in a station wondering what to do, you can't think, "Do I go and do a mission, go mining, or turn off the game?", because your only option is to go mining or turn off the game, unless you've got some awesomesauce faction ship that can run 90% resists and rep back 500hp every 4 seconds (which you'd need to do level 4's to afford in the first place unless you want to spend an entire year grinding level 3's in a Drake), or are truly willing to play the chance game with the AI hoping they'll switch between you and your drones all the time instead of focusing on you. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2086
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
Xearal wrote:OR.. you could you know.. adapt..
As in, buy Tengu and be insta-adapted to any possible niche in the game? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Digital Messiah
Industrial Solutions The Knights Templar.
237
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
I was using drones today, a few times they got insta locked by they are disposable. Always have been, always will be. And it took dps off my ship. Honestly I could only see this change affecting those individuals who use drone boats. I feel bad for sentry users, but at least this is forcing people to be more active. "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn"
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Alara IonStorm
3703
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 00:54:00 -
[31] - Quote
Glad I got that Triple Rigor Navy Scorp w/ Painter a few months back. Could pop Elite Frigs before with the standard Cruise Missiles but now Precision does as much Dmg as Standard so that makes them go down in 3 shots Elite 1 normal. Now sure I lose some Hammerhead DPS against Battleship sometime but Furies w/ Rigors + Painter did full Dmg to Battleship and 2-3 Shot BC's and they just gave it an accuracy + Dmg buff.
Must suck to fly a ship reliant on to take out small ships. |
HydroSan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
17
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Posted - 2012.12.05 00:57:00 -
[32] - Quote
Gallente can't rat or do missions anymore. Who thought this was a good change? |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
184
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 01:00:00 -
[33] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:CCP should just remove drones from the game and get it over with. I could use the SP refund for play styles they still consider kosher. Like shooting rocks all day.
Or you could just pay attention to what you're doing. I used drone boats in wormholes for years, I never lost a drone to sleepers. Everyone whining about the sky falling and gallente ships being useless because of the new AI are just lazy or complaining that they can't afk farm anymore.
Deal with it or find a new game. Nothing has changed for people who actually know how to play. |
Manes Avatarr
Adventurers
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 01:33:00 -
[34] - Quote
HydroSan wrote:Gallente can't rat or do missions anymore. Who thought this was a good change? I have a bitter smile on my face, couse i had such talking in my corp, about NPC AI change long before Retri was deployed. Well, first though i have come to - Gallente will be in big trouble on L4s. And they are. Other faction solo missioning will be somewhat more difficult and it is. Its just obvious - ppl tend to have habits after many years missioning and no NPC changes.
My profits will be cut down but it will be more enjoyable. CCP thinks this way:
1. We will encourage ppl to team play in PVE and mission ops will become more popular. 2. We need to cut down easy money from L4s 3. Solo pilots will start new account and pay us more 4. Some ppl will whine about it, some will enjoy changes. Ppl will adapt, eventually.
And yes, again, Gallente L4s missioners are screwed up. Almighty, pls, have mercy on them. |
Kagumichan
Deorbit Burners Session Change In Progress Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 02:00:00 -
[35] - Quote
Manes Avatarr wrote:Solution: Autocannons (and equivalents) , tracking computers... hurray. And just dont kiss elite frigs below 20km...
so your solution is to fly minmatar ships, just like everyone does in PvP.
Whilst we're at it why don't we just remove amarr, gallente and caldari from the game, since no one will use them for anything anymore. :P |
Irya Boone
Escadron leader
75
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 02:02:00 -
[36] - Quote
once again ccp put it bad one drone boats and drones specialist that it... because they Love missile We should ALL fly caldari just say It CCP don't be such hypocrits Improve C2 class WH More anos more signs ...RENAME null sec system With the name Of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It xill be awesome-á |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
132
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 02:19:00 -
[37] - Quote
Pyre leFay wrote:Did they give remaps when they made doomsdays single target? Did they give remaps when they made supers fighter and bomber only?
Did they give remaps when they got rid of the Learning skill?
EvE Forum Bingo |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1827
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 02:25:00 -
[38] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Pyre leFay wrote:Did they give remaps when they made doomsdays single target? Did they give remaps when they made supers fighter and bomber only? Did they give remaps when they got rid of the Learning skill? Did they get rid of the drone skills? Or the heavy missile skills? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Agent Akari
Just Popped Out For Milk Corcoran State
65
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 02:25:00 -
[39] - Quote
Drones are very important in eve lore, where do you think baby rogue drones come from? :) |
Haoibuni
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
18
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Posted - 2012.12.05 03:02:00 -
[40] - Quote
Gallente guys who are a bit new and despairing at all their time spent skilling drones:
Take the plunge and move to null sec. You can do forsaken hubs. These hubs don't have any frigate rats and the cruisers / BSs don't target your sentries.
Your sentry domi will shine. You can make 35mill ticks (subject to tax) with good sentry drone skills and BS5 even with crappy T1 guns.
Probably 30mill with BS4.
Do 4 of them in a row, will take 1hr 15mins, and then go salvage the 4 on the trot. Just 4 warps required all in the same system and you get another 35-50mill in salvage / loot for an additional 20mins work
So that nets you about 130mill for 1hr 20mins ratting.
Domi fit doesn't need to be pimp neither (use ASB fit - they work even after nerf) as it's a tiny bit risky as it has to sit still.
Or sod the drones and do the above in a naga (but needs T2 guns and Void to pull in the best isk/hr).
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Bluddwolf
Heimatar Military Industries
81
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Posted - 2012.12.05 03:27:00 -
[41] - Quote
Although I used to do level 4's solo (Command ship), I stopped when CCP nerfed the loot drops. I recently figured I could solo two or even three level 3 missions in roughly the same time and with no risk.
I have noticed that the aggro range for drones in asteroid belts have become quite insane (100+ km and beyond) and their target painters seem to have unlimited range!!! EVE Online Fan ... Looking for "End Game" since 2006 ... Happily, I still havn't found it
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farqar
farqar Corporation
0
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Posted - 2012.12.05 03:28:00 -
[42] - Quote
Kagumichan wrote:and pay a 9 million isk repair bill.
Buy a 500k hull and amor rep or 2 and sit out front of station for 10 mins repairing
Then rep modules in station ( cheaper than paste usually)
Less than 9 mil.
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Erazar
D-Tox
0
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Posted - 2012.12.05 03:38:00 -
[43] - Quote
so basically, CCP have made drones 99.9% useless for PVE/Mission Runners?
L4's are going to be even more boring & tedious if we fly BS's trying to take down frigs with cruise missiles.
Nice work CCP
/clap!
...ah well this gives me a good excuse to cancel my accounts for a while \o/ |
starbelt stacy
Project-Gonk
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 03:48:00 -
[44] - Quote
Xearal wrote:OR.. you could you know.. adapt..
Wh residents have been putting up with the sleeper AI for ages.. I've been daytripping in w-space myself once in a while, and I've found no trouble at all with my drones vs the sleeper Ai.. it just requires a little more thinking, instead of just.. warp in, get agro, release drones.. get snack, come back, go get coffee you forgot, come back again, have a nice sip, go to next room, repeat combat actions, get noctis alt, begin salvaging..
now it actually requires you to think a bit. As for serpentis lockdown.. I've found an afterburner and some close range firepower works wonders when you get sensor damped.
some people like myself dont go afk during missions especially in my navy raven it hasnt that great a tank believe it or not, and i cant afford to lose my navy raven to not being at the game watching what is going on. even beofre the change you couldnt just fling your drones out and let them eat up all the blob in the mission area they owuld usually just sit and orbit you without attacking .... so i guess thats your argument shot down in flames.
and stop comparing it to wormhole sleepers the rewards are nothing in comparism and level 4 mission runners shouldnt be gimped this badly. take sme ages trying to get isk as it is from missions it isnt a pot of gold uberness as you may think it is... Sack the dumb mofo decided to nerf level 4's? .... again!!! |
fukier
Flatline.
217
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Posted - 2012.12.05 03:57:00 -
[45] - Quote
Kagumichan wrote:The drone tactic saved my Rokh earlier.
Doing The Assault, level 4, Serpentis... upon warping in the entire room aggroed immediately (that's about 30 frigates, 30 battlecruisers and 10 battleships), 6 sensor dampeners dropped my locking range down to 18k and then the dampers flew around me at 30k, whilst two frigs came in and warp scrambled me. The moment I let out the drones to blow up the scramblers everything, except the scrambling frigs, shot the drones and started popping them. That left me with two options:
1. Sit there and die 2. Drop all my drones and pray to the almighty God of pure luck that either my drones could take the scramble frigs off before they all blew up, or that the scrambling frigs would switch targets.
By pure luck, option 2 happened just as my hull was buckling, and my brave Warrior II's stayed behind and sacrificed themselves whilst I, now looking like a giant flaming fireball, went to go and pay a 9 million isk repair bill, having been completely unable to kill or even lock onto a target in that mission.
A friend earlier actually spent about 2 hours doing a mission in his tengu because for only about 30 seconds every 10 minutes he was able to get a lock because of all the jammers.
The new AI is very nice, it makes things more fun, but I don't think these mission were play-tested to make sure they were still doable solo before it was applied.
hi try a raven At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
895
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 04:01:00 -
[46] - Quote
starbelt stacy wrote:and stop comparing it to wormhole sleepers the rewards are nothing in comparism and level 4 mission runners shouldnt be gimped this badly.
That's a good point too. In their rabid frenzy to give more risk to people in hisec, they always forget the reward part of the equation. "It's no use crying over spilt milk, because all the forces of the universe were bent on spilling it." ~William Maugham |
Tarn Kugisa
Infinite Covenant Tribal Band
181
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Posted - 2012.12.05 04:07:00 -
[47] - Quote
You have a few options:
- get a friend to do L4's with, do 2x the missions in the same time as one
- move to null and actually make ISK
- GTFO
I Endorse this Product and/or Service Source Recorder-esque tool for EVE |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
384
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 04:09:00 -
[48] - Quote
Tarn Kugisa wrote:You have a few options:
- get a friend to do L4's with, do 2x the missions in the same time as one
- move to null and actually make ISK
- GTFO
I understand having all the best content require groups in an MMO, but eliminating solo content doesn't seem to bright to me. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
37
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 04:27:00 -
[49] - Quote
HydroSan wrote:Gallente can't rat or do missions anymore. Who thought this was a good change?
making rat AI harder actually has been a player sponsored idea for years actually. Its been a top 10 idea to make pve less boring for a while now.
And unless I missed it in the notes, mega, vindi, kronos did not have gun bonuses stripped from them. Domi high slotted out ain't too bad either
|
Sekket
Dissident Aggressors Mordus Angels
35
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 05:02:00 -
[50] - Quote
Drones (especially T2) need to be cheaper and drone bays need to be larger to accomodate replacements. Drones are like really expensive ammunition now. I guess you could argue that they always were. - CQ isn't a refuge, it's a cage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iu4iekX3WE |
|
Harland White
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 05:19:00 -
[51] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:This is the only game I've ever played that relied so heavily on having multiple accounts. If high sec mission running to generate isk for my PVP fun now requires logistics, e-war or aggro alts then I'll pass and find another game.
Yeah pretty much this.
I enjoy L4s as they were, if they're now un-soloable and require more people (meaning less reward) or more accounts (meaning more money down the drain) then I'm definitely unsubbing. Plenty of other (arguably better) games out there allow you to solo much of the content enjoyably. I play this game to relax and enjoy myself after work most days, and I don't play 12 hours a day so you can call me "casual". If EVE is now going to require multiple accounts and playing way more often and changing my playstyle, so long, CCP. |
Maximus Vorlon
The Poseidon Exploration
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 06:12:00 -
[52] - Quote
If this is an attempt to improve the NPC AI, they should have the NPC's change their target to what's dealing the most damage, say over a period of 10 seconds.
When I got back to running missions, I entered the site and made sure I got all the agro, dealing alot of damage with cruise missiles, but just launching the drones and having them orbiting me, obviously posted more of a thread than the battleship blowing them up. All the NPC's lost interest in the only thing dealing them damage.
The drones should av been considered non-hostile compared to me.
NPC AI should behave as the invading alien force in the movie Battleship, attack the threat about to kill you :) |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
166
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 06:25:00 -
[53] - Quote
To JITA! UNLEASH OUR DRONES ON THE MONUMENT! ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o )
The world would be a better place if boobies ran the world instead of boobs. |
Nick Bete
The Scope Gallente Federation
147
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 06:49:00 -
[54] - Quote
I Love Boobies wrote:To JITA! UNLEASH OUR DRONES ON THE MONUMENT!
You're joking but, you may have an idea there! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1828
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 07:00:00 -
[55] - Quote
Nick Bete wrote:I Love Boobies wrote:To JITA! UNLEASH OUR DRONES ON THE MONUMENT! You're joking but, you may have an idea there! I bet CCP will set loose a bunch of NPC cruisers that will kill your drones. Oh and shooting them will make you a suspect.
Or maybe just make aggressing the statue give you a suspect flag. That would let the community solve the problem... heh Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
starbelt stacy
Project-Gonk
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 07:04:00 -
[56] - Quote
Tarn Kugisa wrote:You have a few options:
- get a friend to do L4's with, do 2x the missions in the same time as one
- move to null and actually make ISK
- GTFO
why should i be forced into null sec? ... am i not entitled to play the game as i see fit by what gives me pleasure?
i have done null sec on my pirate alt ages ago and the blob warfare done my head in... sorry just not into doing blobs and warp bubbles camped by griefers looking for the next blob kill mail.... sue me
i just want to do level 4's that is what floats my boat..... i shouldnt be gimped for wanting to play the game how i enjoy it as long as i play legit. Sack the dumb mofo who decided to nerf level 4's? .... again!!! |
Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
231
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 07:21:00 -
[57] - Quote
starbelt stacy wrote:Pyre leFay wrote:Did they give remaps when they made doomsdays single target? Did they give remaps when they made supers fighter and bomber only? Adapt. and by adapt you mean sit in station and train up for another 1-3 months for something else to do in eve as your chosen profession while you pay for your sub??? meanwhile back in reality.......
There are other things to do in this game, but if you want to waste time sitting around in station, that's your prerogative. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1830
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 07:22:00 -
[58] - Quote
starbelt stacy wrote:but it doesnt matter anymore cos me and my caldari navy raven are now retired from level 4's as they are just not worth the grief now, so thats my 3 accounts unsubbed for now and i wont be renewing it any time soon unless changes are made or i can find something else i enjoy doing ingame Consider unloading your assets to someone that will continue to torture themselves by running missions with them.
I've always thought about taking up L4s... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
231
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 07:24:00 -
[59] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Nick Bete wrote:I Love Boobies wrote:To JITA! UNLEASH OUR DRONES ON THE MONUMENT! You're joking but, you may have an idea there! I bet CCP will set loose a bunch of NPC cruisers that will kill your drones. Oh and shooting them will make you a suspect. Or maybe just make aggressing the statue give you a suspect flag. That would let the community solve the problem... heh
I'm starting to notice a division in the EVE "community" as a result of Retribution. On one hand, there are a those players who are solving problems, and on the other, there are those that want everyone else to solve their problems.
Let's cause them all new problems instead You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Manes Avatarr
Adventurers
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 07:25:00 -
[60] - Quote
Kagumichan wrote: so your solution is to fly minmatar ships, just like everyone does in PvP. Whilst we're at it why don't we just remove amarr, gallente and caldari from the game, since no one will use them for anything anymore. :P
I said "or equivalent". Blasters and pulses will work fine. Personally... i DO L4s sometimes and i havent used single drone since long time. I just kill all ships with "short" range guns. As i said, Gallente are screwed a bit. Everybody else can find new solutions to NPC AI issue. Altough missions become more risky. |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2091
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 07:26:00 -
[61] - Quote
Agent Akari wrote:Drones are very important in eve lore, where do you think baby rogue drones come from? :)
Nasty Ogre II having intercourse with a nice Valkirie II? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
231
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 07:28:00 -
[62] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:starbelt stacy wrote:but it doesnt matter anymore cos me and my caldari navy raven are now retired from level 4's as they are just not worth the grief now, so thats my 3 accounts unsubbed for now and i wont be renewing it any time soon unless changes are made or i can find something else i enjoy doing ingame Consider unloading your assets to someone that will continue to torture themselves by running missions with them. I've always thought about taking up L4s...
There's a reason why mission runners seem to be the primary complainers about this patch - it's because missions are predictable, and they've always known what they are in for. They are, by nature, the kind of people that don't like change, hence why they run missions, and hence why they are doing nothing but complaining about how hard the new AI is making it for them.
What people aren't realising is that by making lvl4s harder, it may mean having to fly them in a fleet. It is also an acceptable alternative to moving lvl4s out of high sec - they stay in high sec, but are now harder to accomplish, hence decreasing the exponential influx of excess ISK in the economy and reducing the need for ISK sinks. This is a quality patch disguised as an AI boost. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
231
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 07:31:00 -
[63] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Tarn Kugisa wrote:You have a few options:
- get a friend to do L4's with, do 2x the missions in the same time as one
- move to null and actually make ISK
- GTFO
I understand having all the best content require groups in an MMO, but eliminating solo content doesn't seem to bright to me.
There has been no elimination of solo content. You still have level 1s, 2s, and 3s. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2091
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 07:31:00 -
[64] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:HydroSan wrote:Gallente can't rat or do missions anymore. Who thought this was a good change? making rat AI harder actually has been a player sponsored idea for years actually. Its been a top 10 idea to make pve less boring for a while now. And unless I missed it in the notes, mega, vindi, kronos did not have gun bonuses stripped from them. Domi high slotted out ain't too bad either
Does "shoot drones first and anyway" equal to "harder" or just annoying?
I think most intended something like Darkfall Online AI, where the NPCs really pose a challenge not just an annoyance. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1832
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 07:34:00 -
[65] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:starbelt stacy wrote:but it doesnt matter anymore cos me and my caldari navy raven are now retired from level 4's as they are just not worth the grief now, so thats my 3 accounts unsubbed for now and i wont be renewing it any time soon unless changes are made or i can find something else i enjoy doing ingame Consider unloading your assets to someone that will continue to torture themselves by running missions with them. I've always thought about taking up L4s... There's a reason why mission runners seem to be the primary complainers about this patch - it's because missions are predictable, and they've always known what they are in for. They are, by nature, the kind of people that don't like change, hence why they run missions, and hence why they are doing nothing but complaining about how hard the new AI is making it for them. What people aren't realising is that by making lvl4s harder, it may mean having to fly them in a fleet. It is also an acceptable alternative to moving lvl4s out of high sec - they stay in high sec, but are now harder to accomplish, hence decreasing the exponential influx of excess ISK in the economy and reducing the need for ISK sinks. This is a quality patch disguised as an AI boost. You mean... they nerfed L4s without coming out and nerfing L4s? Genius... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
231
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 07:36:00 -
[66] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:starbelt stacy wrote:but it doesnt matter anymore cos me and my caldari navy raven are now retired from level 4's as they are just not worth the grief now, so thats my 3 accounts unsubbed for now and i wont be renewing it any time soon unless changes are made or i can find something else i enjoy doing ingame Consider unloading your assets to someone that will continue to torture themselves by running missions with them. I've always thought about taking up L4s... There's a reason why mission runners seem to be the primary complainers about this patch - it's because missions are predictable, and they've always known what they are in for. They are, by nature, the kind of people that don't like change, hence why they run missions, and hence why they are doing nothing but complaining about how hard the new AI is making it for them. What people aren't realising is that by making lvl4s harder, it may mean having to fly them in a fleet. It is also an acceptable alternative to moving lvl4s out of high sec - they stay in high sec, but are now harder to accomplish, hence decreasing the exponential influx of excess ISK in the economy and reducing the need for ISK sinks. This is a quality patch disguised as an AI boost. You mean... they nerfed L4s without coming out and nerfing L4s? Genius...
Exachery You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2091
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 07:38:00 -
[67] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote: What people aren't realising is that by making lvl4s harder, it may mean having to fly them in a fleet. It is also an acceptable alternative to moving lvl4s out of high sec - they stay in high sec, but are now harder to accomplish, hence decreasing the exponential influx of excess ISK in the economy and reducing the need for ISK sinks. This is a quality patch disguised as an AI boost.
You really believe that EvE is worth so much to get the sixth nerf in the last 3 years and still keep playing it?
It will affect me very little since I found out ways to earn ISK that are not even comparable with lol missioning buy I understand there's a massive number of players who are casual, PvE oriented and similar and are getting labelled, called and spat upon as they were some dirty thieves, a purulent cancer to just wipe off EvE.
What would EvE be without half of its playerbase? Back to the crappy almost LAN sized thing it was in the beginning? I suppose we did not want those devs anyway. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
starbelt stacy
Project-Gonk
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 07:38:00 -
[68] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:starbelt stacy wrote:but it doesnt matter anymore cos me and my caldari navy raven are now retired from level 4's as they are just not worth the grief now, so thats my 3 accounts unsubbed for now and i wont be renewing it any time soon unless changes are made or i can find something else i enjoy doing ingame Consider unloading your assets to someone that will continue to torture themselves by running missions with them. I've always thought about taking up L4s...
sure .. send me 3 bil and ill send you my stuff Sack the dumb mofo who decided to nerf level 4's? .... again!!! |
starbelt stacy
Project-Gonk
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 07:43:00 -
[69] - Quote
by the way .... if i was to retrain for another profession / activity in eve i would have to sit in station for most of the time just logging in to flip skills
i only fly a CNR and a hauler..... so it goes without saying i would need to train something else and that takes months einstein does it not???
new ship class.... new weapons to train for ..... new supporting skills to use the aforementioned.
so call me nuts for not wanting to pay a sub for 3 accounts just to flip skills for a few months. Sack the dumb mofo who decided to nerf level 4's? .... again!!! |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
386
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 07:57:00 -
[70] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Tarn Kugisa wrote:You have a few options:
- get a friend to do L4's with, do 2x the missions in the same time as one
- move to null and actually make ISK
- GTFO
I understand having all the best content require groups in an MMO, but eliminating solo content doesn't seem to bright to me. There has been no elimination of solo content. You still have level 1s, 2s, and 3s. Assuming for a moment I actually believed lvl 4's were no longer doable solo, you think lvl 3's should be the best for mission content to be done solo? Really? |
|
Sum'Mar Raholan
Fruidian Logic The Volition Cult
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 08:23:00 -
[71] - Quote
I did some L4's last night, and they are a damn sight more enjoyable than the release drones and wait game of before.
It now promotes team play, some thought about ships and fittings, and just overall more engaging.
Well done CCP, this is a winner. (I also like the fact if you get caught ratting in low/null, you have a chance of the NPC's switching to the other guy and helping you out) |
Akiyo Mayaki
Industrial Justice Corporation
15
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 08:41:00 -
[72] - Quote
For someone who has been training drones almost ever since I started in this game and now see them nerfed to the ground even before getting into my drone boat... Meh. |
Manes Avatarr
Adventurers
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 08:56:00 -
[73] - Quote
People, don't cry. At least NPCs don't shot down cruise missiles and torps launched at them. And don't try to catch bullets from autocannons.
Yet.
|
Micheal Black
Eze Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 09:01:00 -
[74] - Quote
I have no problem with the new AI targeting drones, but a nice gesture but CCP would be an alert that your drones are being targeted. I lost a couple of hobs today and they were almost insta popped when agroed switched. I was doing a mission with a buddy and it was hard tracking who was agroed by what. Also the seems to beable to lock on faster to your drones. No sooner did I launch my drones to take out a warp scramble frigate did the ratschuck target and popped onend of the drones. Not even two seconds of game play went by and my hob was already in structure damage. |
Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
232
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 09:11:00 -
[75] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote: What people aren't realising is that by making lvl4s harder, it may mean having to fly them in a fleet. It is also an acceptable alternative to moving lvl4s out of high sec - they stay in high sec, but are now harder to accomplish, hence decreasing the exponential influx of excess ISK in the economy and reducing the need for ISK sinks. This is a quality patch disguised as an AI boost.
You really believe that EvE is worth so much to get the sixth nerf in the last 3 years and still keep playing it? It will affect me very little since I found out ways to earn ISK that are not even comparable with lol missioning buy I understand there's a massive number of players who are casual, PvE oriented and similar and are getting labelled, called and spat upon as they were some dirty thieves, a purulent cancer to just wipe off EvE. What would EvE be without half of its playerbase? Back to the crappy almost LAN sized thing it was in the beginning? I suppose we did not want those devs anyway.
I like EVE. There are a few actual real issues with the expansion, but the mere fact that it's free puts it miles ahead of any other game on the market.
But I tend to find that the people who are prattling on about leaving or saying "what would EVE be without their player base" etc are pretty much just all talk. You can spat and tantrum all you want over your precious level 4s, but while you and a few others were doing that, me and some of my mates were out finishing the very missions you are complaining about.
Solo.
Yeah, they're harder. So we figured it out. Is it normal for people to just quit things because they get harder? Sure, actually, it is, but only if it's something they didn't already enjoy. See, the thing about EVE is, it has players that want to play games, and players that want to play EVE. It's the players that want to play EVE who are out solving the new problems that the expansion has presented us, and those that want to play games who are quite welcome to bugger off and play Super Smash Bros instead if they want "easy mode" and expect other people to solve their problems for them.
All I'm hearing from people is "waah my drones" or "wahh level 4s" and expecting something to be fixed as if it's broken - there are things broken, but it's not the AI, it's not your drones, and it's not your level 4 missions. All that's broken there is any sense you might have of being interested in the game, which can't be that much of an interest if a little AI patch makes you want to quit.
Seriously, EVE was never meant to be easy. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Irya Boone
Escadron leader
75
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 09:12:00 -
[76] - Quote
it would be fair if NPc become Immune to missile and lasers and autocannons too Improve C2 class WH More anos more signs ...RENAME null sec system With the name Of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It xill be awesome-á |
Caliph Muhammed
Short Bus Friends
308
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 09:17:00 -
[77] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Xearal wrote:OR.. you could you know.. adapt..
As in, buy Tengu and be insta-adapted to any possible niche in the game?
Because training for a tengu is just a trivial thing to do. Its not like it requires mastery in each subsystems focus, like ECM, cloaking, propulsion or whatever. Nevermind the time for the weapons systems or the t1 ship requirements. And laugh out loud to the low price they sell for. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2093
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 09:49:00 -
[78] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Xearal wrote:OR.. you could you know.. adapt..
As in, buy Tengu and be insta-adapted to any possible niche in the game? Because training for a tengu is just a trivial thing to do. Its not like it requires mastery in each subsystems focus, like ECM, cloaking, propulsion or whatever. Nevermind the time for the weapons systems or the t1 ship requirements. And laugh out loud to the low price they sell for.
Sarcasm, you don't get it. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2094
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 10:02:00 -
[79] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote: But I tend to find that the people who are prattling on about leaving or saying "what would EVE be without their player base" etc are pretty much just all talk. You can spat and tantrum all you want over your precious level 4s, but while you and a few others were doing that, me and some of my mates were out finishing the very missions you are complaining about.
Learn to read. I don't do missions, so keep "your missions" statements for yourself. I *DID* missions and unlike you ambulance chasers *I* was demonstrating years ago L4 missions were too rewarding and needed nerfs. Just bother pulling up the old forums => missions sub forum and go for the most flamed threads: they were mine and another guy's. I also did the same for Incursions, before your character was even born.
I owe nothing to you newbs who pretend to know the game.
Remiel Pollard wrote: Yeah, they're harder.
No, they are sh!ttier.
Harder would be having actual new content "L4 PLUS" missions where you get in and only find 2-3 ships that play like PvP. Harder would be doing what Darkfall does: nasty NPCs you sweat hard to kill more than one.
Making people send drones, then recall them and then send again is NOT hard. It's as stupid as before except now you have to do two more right clicks. WOOO you get easily pleased, eh?
Remiel Pollard wrote: Seriously, EVE was never meant to be easy.
I still find it p!ss easy and boring too. Hoped for a real AI buff not this bugged farce.
Also, it's a discriminatory farce, because if I fly a Tengu I auto-win and that's it. If I fly two ships (easy considering I still have 4 mission characters and ships) it's still auto-win. Screw newbies with just 1 account.
But if I fly a tier 1 or Minmatar battleship with few mid slots (no EWAR / webs) like a newbie does, it'll be much harder and that goes against a learning curve.
If I fly a drone boat it's annoying and ripe for losses.
If EvE really was meant to be hard it'd be:
1) Impossible to multi-box missions. 2) All the races would have the same difficulty doing the content. 3) The AI would be a 2012 AI, not a 1980 AI. Or a 1985 AI in case of Sleeper AI.
They should have left L4 as is and just *added* proper challenge new missions with proper AI, where people who believe to be skilled enough can go in and get more reward in exchange for a much steeper difficulty.
As is it now, it's not hard. It's just a racist nerf.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Sildan Smith
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 10:09:00 -
[80] - Quote
I am not sure what to make of these changes. I can understand the desire to discourage afk drone boating tier 4 missions, but surely there was an alternative to pretty much making training up scout drones a complete waste of time unless you're training the pre-requisites for a carrier or supercarrier.
For the most part, Drones were already pretty useless for PvP and their one saving grace was that they were semi-useful in PvE.. so much so that I tried to ensure that each one of my 5 account's main character have decent drone skills.
Although this change mainly impacts Gallente ships, it does also affect any other racial would-be carrier pilots. The current market value of tech 2 light drones seems to be around 3-500k EACH. The heavy and medium scout drones run even more expensive. It seems very excessive that with the new AI, you will almost certainly spend more money replacing drones than get from mission rewards unless you rarely pull a drone out.
Since most of my toons are industrialist/miners, I should be considering mass drone production, but I think that would be a bad idea as people will just not use drone boats rather than make me rich by buying my drones.
I am not sure how asteroid belt rats are as I have yet to log in since the expansion was released, but if the AI was also applied to belt rats, that's going to make mining in nullsec a tougher challenge since most miners use t2 drones for protection from rats there. |
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DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
470
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 10:18:00 -
[81] - Quote
They made certain missions very annoying.
ECM from npc's: Where is the fun in being permajammed in a mission? It has always been annoying, but its even worse now because your drones will not be able to kill the jamming ships. Solution: Bring another person or alt.
Trackingdisruption and sensordamps from npc's: A little bit less of a problem because you can still use drones to kill the scrambling frigs in case you need to gtfo. For the other npc's you'll have to burn into range to kill them. That is if you can tank the whole room while burning towards the rats for several minutes. Solution: Bring another person or alt or Tengu.
They changed solo-content to multiplayer content. Not a good move imo. There is plenty of multiplayer content already. There should be something for the casual player. Lv 4's don't make all that much isk anyway compared to other pve. (Incursions, exploration sites, wormholes, yes even mining, ...)
This change will hurt newer players the most. They don't have access to top-of-the-line hardware and have to do these missions in T1 ships sometimes with meta-modules.
Not a good change. Ungi ma+¦urinn ++ekkir reglurnar, en gamli ma+¦urinn ++ekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions. |
Xearal
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
408
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 10:28:00 -
[82] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Xearal wrote:OR.. you could you know.. adapt..
As in, buy Tengu and be insta-adapted to any possible niche in the game?
Tengu's tend to work from what I hear, I've never flown one. I prefer the Loki, as for charging 10 megatrons.. if you can't handle that, you're doing something wrong. I've done that lots of times and worse odds in my Trusty old HAM drake. |
Alayna Le'line
Battery Acid Skinny Dippers
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 10:34:00 -
[83] - Quote
In the very few L4 missions I've done so far in my Dominix drone aggro has barely been an issue. Then again I run missions ATK...
The only thing I've heard so far that could be problematic (but haven't experienced yet) is people getting full room aggro all the time, which could be slightly annoying (understatement) in missions with lots of NPCs. But this has been happening occasionally (for certain values of occasionally) on some missions since as long as I've been playing and so far I've managed to deal with it every time, I'm sure I'll be okay now as well.
Sure the new AI is slightly more annoying but I think I had to pull in my drones like 2 or 3 times extra during an Angel Extravaganza (also, once you've pulled them back in once NPCs seem to usually not switch back to them until a new spawn). That said, if you don't use sentries you'd better be prepared to lose drones to frigs sooner later than later as NPCs seem to focus fire a single drone (should be fun when there's loads of frigs...not).
Also I think this change is mostly going to really hit low level missions and low skill characters hard. Level 2s in a Vexor, sounds like they should be "fun" with the new aggro mechanics with all the frigs around...
Slightly unrelated: my Dominix gained a bit under 50 drone dps, yay \o/
On a totally related note to all the those that think this change makes L4s harder: they don't. And it doesn't make them any less predictable (or boring) either. NPCs WILL aggro your drones, no exceptions, some faster than others but that's how it is and once you pull them back they won't aggro again, so after the initial aggro it's back to business as usual until the next group spawns or aggros... Yawn? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2096
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 10:34:00 -
[84] - Quote
Xearal wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Xearal wrote:OR.. you could you know.. adapt..
As in, buy Tengu and be insta-adapted to any possible niche in the game? Tengu's tend to work from what I hear, I've never flown one. I prefer the Loki, as for charging 10 megatrons.. if you can't handle that, you're doing something wrong. I've done that lots of times and worse odds in my Trusty old HAM drake.
Well, Loki are good but Tengus are like what Drakes were to the other BCs. I know the missiles nerf but they are still an all-encompassing powerhouse. Most of all, they don't need to rely on drones, this is why they are the ship of election for soloing C3 and not only those. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2099
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 10:37:00 -
[85] - Quote
Alayna Le'line wrote: Also I think this change is mostly going to really hit low level missions and low skill characters hard. Level 2s in a Vexor, sound like they should be "fun" with the new aggro mechanics with all the frigs around...
On a totally related note to all the those that think this change makes L4s harder: they don't. And it doesn't make them any less predictable (or boring) either. NPCs WILL aggro your drones, no exceptions, some faster than others but that's how it is and once you pull them back they won't aggro again, so after the initial aggro it's back to business as usual until the next group spawns or aggros... So you need to do slightly more effort in a predictable way...yawn?
These are the two points I was trying to make as well.
How can a change mostly impairing new characters be good? How can be "differently boring" == "challenging"? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1414
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 10:40:00 -
[86] - Quote
Manes Avatarr wrote:People, don't cry. At least NPCs don't shot down cruise missiles and torps launched at them. Um, what? -áObjects in mirror are redder than they appear. |
Manes Avatarr
Adventurers
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 11:03:00 -
[87] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Manes Avatarr wrote:People, don't cry. At least NPCs don't shot down cruise missiles and torps launched at them. Um, what?
If NPCs would start to dodge missiles and bullets. THAT would be challenging. I kill all frigs first and only problem would be situation when acc gate take me in a center of dozens of elite frigs which insta scram my BS.
I repeat - i havent use any drone on L4 since long time (Pirate Invasion, Scarlets, Angel Extra, Gone Berserk, Mordus Folly etc). Propably i will take some salvaging drones next time. But i can imagine that if i would be drone boat pilot, extended micromanagment with drones would insta kill my nerves. |
Flex Carter
Caldari Independant Mining Association
74
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 11:22:00 -
[88] - Quote
Man, how I miss the good old days when we were allowed to use 20 drones in space with our Dom's...It would've provided a really nice buffer right about now with the way they are getting popped...
Quote of the Day: "Funny thing is it looks like they added a few drone boats in the same expansion that they ruined them, nice one CCP. lmao"
|
Enilonee
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 12:10:00 -
[89] - Quote
I don't know what it is that makes people think AFK-Missioning with drones was ever the usual playstyle.
Let's see what happened when I went AFK pre-patch. - Light drones started shooting BS. Nothing they could ever pop. - Heavies startet shooting (elite) frigs. Again, nothing they could ever pop. - Ships got withing 20km of sentries. BS still popped. BC too. The rest didn't. - Medium drones could deal with most NPCs but wouldn't be fast.
Thats why i didn't rely on drones for long (though i only AFK'd a hand full of missions). So i built my trusty Blaster-Proteus with light and medium Drones to deal with frigates and cruisers that keep distance. I didn't like the Tengu - everyone used that ship... And I am ready to sacrifice income to fly a ship I enjoy.
I needed to keep track of position, aggression, target and healt for both my ship and drones but i was okay with that. It was a nuisance that drones stated to wander off to the worst possible target (drawing neutral NPCs into the fight) but that was manageable.
But with the new AI i'm at constant risk of losing a third of my DPS (more if you consider time spent flying into blaster optimal) and get quite a dent to my income at the same time while also losing the ability to quickly dispose of tacklers. And that with a ship that wasn't ever considered a Drone-Boat or AFK-able.
Yeah, a job well done.
Wisely forseeing, i trained for a HAM-Tengu some time ago. 500-600 DPS at 40km range, which work reasonably well against frigates, fielding a massive shield tank (depending on the Deadspace/Officer SB used easily beyond 1000hps) while capstable. And i get rid of managing Drones.
Can't say i like it, but Drones had enough disadvantages already. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1836
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 12:45:00 -
[90] - Quote
Manes Avatarr wrote:People, don't cry. At least NPCs don't shot down cruise missiles and torps launched at them. And don't try to catch bullets from autocannons.
Yet. Well, some of them use .... DEFENDER missiles !! Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
|
Manes Avatarr
Adventurers
3
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 13:00:00 -
[91] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Well, some of them use .... DEFENDER missiles !! :-) Good point. Luckily it doesn't stop Caldaris in any way. Imagine alite frigs speed tanking missiles locked at them! And NPC BS warping out for reps. That would be AI boost...
|
Regis Solo
Universal Freelance CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 13:47:00 -
[92] - Quote
I think rocks should have some AI too so they can smash up miners! |
Cozmik R5
Chez Stan
147
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 13:56:00 -
[93] - Quote
The main vibe I get from people whining about their drones dying to Sleeper AI is "OMFG I can't AFK L4 missions anymore !!!11!".
Well guess what whiners, this is as it should be. You have to actually PLAY the game instead of just having it running and grinding ISK while you watch a movie. Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try. |
ashley Eoner
62
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 14:18:00 -
[94] - Quote
Alayna Le'line wrote:In the very few L4 missions I've done so far in my Dominix drone aggro has barely been an issue. Then again I run missions ATK...
The only thing I've heard so far that could be problematic (but haven't experienced yet) is people getting full room aggro all the time, which could be slightly annoying (understatement) in missions with lots of NPCs. But this has been happening occasionally (for certain values of occasionally) on some missions since as long as I've been playing and so far I've managed to deal with it every time, I'm sure I'll be okay now as well.
Sure the new AI is slightly more annoying but I think I had to pull in my drones like 2 or 3 times extra during an Angel Extravaganza (my Garde IIs seem to tank Angel Battleships rather fine too, which is awesome). That said, if you don't use sentries you'd better be prepared to lose drones to frigs sooner rather than later as NPCs seem to focus fire a single drone (should be fun when there's loads of frigs...not).
Also I think this change is mostly going to really hit low level missions and low skill characters hard. Level 2s in a Vexor, sound like they should be "fun" with the new aggro mechanics with all the frigs around...
Slightly unrelated: my Dominix gained a bit under 50 drone dps, yay \o/
On a totally related note to all the those that think this change makes L4s harder: they don't. And it doesn't make them any less predictable (or boring) either. NPCs WILL aggro your drones, no exceptions, some faster than others but that's how it is and once you pull them back they won't aggro again, so after the initial aggro it's back to business as usual until the next group spawns or aggros... So you need to do slightly more effort in a predictable way...yawn? According to CCP you're actually abusing a bug that results in the drones not gaining aggro like they are supposed to. That's probably why you're not having the problem others are having since we're not doing the exploit. |
Alayna Le'line
Battery Acid Skinny Dippers
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 14:20:00 -
[95] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Alayna Le'line wrote:In the very few L4 missions I've done so far in my Dominix drone aggro has barely been an issue. Then again I run missions ATK...
The only thing I've heard so far that could be problematic (but haven't experienced yet) is people getting full room aggro all the time, which could be slightly annoying (understatement) in missions with lots of NPCs. But this has been happening occasionally (for certain values of occasionally) on some missions since as long as I've been playing and so far I've managed to deal with it every time, I'm sure I'll be okay now as well.
Sure the new AI is slightly more annoying but I think I had to pull in my drones like 2 or 3 times extra during an Angel Extravaganza (my Garde IIs seem to tank Angel Battleships rather fine too, which is awesome). That said, if you don't use sentries you'd better be prepared to lose drones to frigs sooner rather than later as NPCs seem to focus fire a single drone (should be fun when there's loads of frigs...not).
Also I think this change is mostly going to really hit low level missions and low skill characters hard. Level 2s in a Vexor, sound like they should be "fun" with the new aggro mechanics with all the frigs around...
Slightly unrelated: my Dominix gained a bit under 50 drone dps, yay \o/
On a totally related note to all the those that think this change makes L4s harder: they don't. And it doesn't make them any less predictable (or boring) either. NPCs WILL aggro your drones, no exceptions, some faster than others but that's how it is and once you pull them back they won't aggro again, so after the initial aggro it's back to business as usual until the next group spawns or aggros... So you need to do slightly more effort in a predictable way...yawn? According to CCP you're actually abusing a bug that results in the drones not gaining aggro like they are supposed to. That's probably why you're not having the problem others are having since we're not doing the exploit.
What you're not doing is reading feedback threads. This "exploit" was left in by CCP on purpose, not using it is just making your own life harder for no reason at all. |
Kagumichan
Deorbit Burners Session Change In Progress Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 14:42:00 -
[96] - Quote
Well... my complaint wasn't really with the drones being instantly shot at the moment I dropped them, it was more that the rats have been given this new AI but their ewar hasn't been rescaled to match it. Before, you could go into a mission with say... Gurista, and sure every now and again you'd get target jammed, but not constantly like the new AI does. On top of that if there's a mission where you're meant to aggro one group at a time because they're huge groups with lots of ewar and damage... with the new AI, you immediately aggro everything in the room the moment even one enemy decides to target you.
So think about it like that, fly into a Gurista mission with any battleship, you get instantly target jammed, the frigates come and warp scramble you, and everytime you drop drones they get insta-popped, leaving you floating there completely unable to do anything. Even if you can perma-tank all their damage, you're stuck, and there's no way you can get unstuck from that situation unless you can get a buddy to come along and take the heat off you... that would also then mean your buddy will get stuck when they switch targets.
It doesn't make sense, some level 4 missions are still soloable, but some of them simply aren't possible with a single ship, and the only way to find that out is to fly to the mission and see if you get ganked to hell and lose a 200+ million isk battleship. Why turn something in the game that has primarily been soloable for so long into a case where some of them are and some of them aren't, and you don't know that until you get there.
As I said, the new AI is nice, it makes other level 4 missions much more fun and exciting, sure if you can complete the mission you have to spend all of the agents reward money buying new drones and the only money you can make is from bounty and salvage which would probably be netting you about 10 million+ an hour depending on the mission and loot, but they do need to drop some of the ewar.
On another note, I'd love to see exactly how many drones and battleships were lost yesterday. |
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
110
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 14:48:00 -
[97] - Quote
The title "Retribution" is actually foreshadowing. A year from now, rogue drones will have spread en masse throughout New Eden, quickly overwhelming Concord and Empire forces. Action reports will flood in from the contested regions, saying that the enemy's forces are bolstered by wave after wave of infested Hobgoblins, Valkyries, Wasps and Infiltrators.
They will broadcast one message before they engage, sending a chill through the cortex of every capsuleer:
"01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01101100 01100101 01100110 01110100 00100000 01110101 01110011 00100000 01100010 01100101 01101000 01101001 01101110 01100100." |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
782
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 14:57:00 -
[98] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:CCP should just remove drones from the game and get it over with. I could use the SP refund for play styles they still consider kosher. Like shooting rocks all day.
It is my belief that it is the intention of CCP to remove drones from the game.
Make drones useless, then when folk stop using them, simply remove something players no longer use - want. This is not a signature. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1214
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 15:02:00 -
[99] - Quote
I did 4 missions with my Navy Domi last night. Lost a grand total of 2 light drones. I even got though Blockade L4 vs Serpentis with no losses. I use the "pull them in when they catch aggro" method. It works, the NPCs only evaluate targets and switch once every few minutes.
When damped an unable to target anything what I would do is watch the damage notifications to see what the drones were shooting. If they were shooting the trigger Id pull them in and re-deploy. The next damp to hit me would then be aggressed by the drones, and killed. In this way I cleared all the dampening ships.
In the last mission, Stop the thief L4, I had begun to get complacent, lost my focus, and 2 light drones got killed before I recalled them. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Alua Oresson
Demon-War-Lords Fatal Ascension
156
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 15:04:00 -
[100] - Quote
For the PVEing that I do, I find that the change to drones actually makes things easier for me. If you do the right kind of content you don't have to deal with frigates. And seeing as frigates seem to be the only thing to agress sentry drones, I don't even have to recover my drones between waves anymore. Win Win for me. http://pvpwannabe.blogspot.com/ |
|
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
490
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 15:05:00 -
[101] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:I did 4 missions with my Navy Domi last night. Lost a grand total of 2 light drones. I even got though Blockade L4 vs Serpentis with no losses. I use the "pull them in when they catch aggro" method. It works, the NPCs only evaluate targets and switch once every few minutes.
Again, that is something ccp is going to fix.
CCP Gargant:-á this game requires a certain amount of simply going out there and chatting with people. You will get scammed, destroyed, cheated, trolled, and blown up but that is just a part of the essence of this game. -á |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
490
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 15:08:00 -
[102] - Quote
Alua Oresson wrote:For the PVEing that I do, I find that the change to drones actually makes things easier for me. If you do the right kind of content you don't have to deal with frigates. And seeing as frigates seem to be the only thing to agress sentry drones, I don't even have to recover my drones between waves anymore. Win Win for me.
i do Forsaken Hubs too, this change means MUCH more dps for me, I used to use mach/tengu now it's mach rattlesnake.
Then i went and tried a Haven, it was a nightmare at warp in range. I refit the mach for artillery and warp my ships in at range and it was just blap blap blappity blap. The change isn't a game ender, just poorly thought out imo. CCP Gargant:-á this game requires a certain amount of simply going out there and chatting with people. You will get scammed, destroyed, cheated, trolled, and blown up but that is just a part of the essence of this game. -á |
Alua Oresson
Demon-War-Lords Fatal Ascension
156
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 15:26:00 -
[103] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Alua Oresson wrote:For the PVEing that I do, I find that the change to drones actually makes things easier for me. If you do the right kind of content you don't have to deal with frigates. And seeing as frigates seem to be the only thing to agress sentry drones, I don't even have to recover my drones between waves anymore. Win Win for me. i do Forsaken Hubs too, this change means MUCH more dps for me, I used to use mach/tengu now it's mach rattlesnake. Then i went and tried a Haven, it was a nightmare at warp in range. I refit the mach for artillery and warp my ships in at range and it was just blap blap blappity blap. The change isn't a game ender, just poorly thought out imo.
Vindicator with Sentry drones is just insanity DPS wise. http://pvpwannabe.blogspot.com/ |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
491
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 15:28:00 -
[104] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Alua Oresson wrote:For the PVEing that I do, I find that the change to drones actually makes things easier for me. If you do the right kind of content you don't have to deal with frigates. And seeing as frigates seem to be the only thing to agress sentry drones, I don't even have to recover my drones between waves anymore. Win Win for me. i do Forsaken Hubs too, this change means MUCH more dps for me, I used to use mach/tengu now it's mach rattlesnake. Then i went and tried a Haven, it was a nightmare at warp in range. I refit the mach for artillery and warp my ships in at range and it was just blap blap blappity blap. The change isn't a game ender, just poorly thought out imo.
You mean to say that this AI change is a direct blow to L4s (in hi-sec) and makes ratting in null easier? Gasp! We totally did not see this one coming, what with CSM being wall-to-wall nullbears and all. |
Erazar
D-Tox
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 15:53:00 -
[105] - Quote
hmm
ok heres my findings about the drones..
seems to me theres no change with aggro?
i ran about 7-8 L4 missions yesterday in my CNR, did what i usually do, get aggro, release drones on frigs & they didnt get aggro once, which i was suprised at as i was expecting to?
dont know how alot of people are getting aggro, releasing drones too early maybe before you get aggro? all i know is i ran the missions exactly same method as i did pre-patch & there seems like no change ? |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
493
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 15:56:00 -
[106] - Quote
Erazar wrote:hmm
ok heres my findings about the drones..
seems to me theres no change with aggro?
i ran about 7-8 L4 missions yesterday in my CNR, did what i usually do, get aggro, release drones on frigs & they didnt get aggro once, which i was suprised at as i was expecting to?
dont know how alot of people are getting aggro, releasing drones too early maybe before you get aggro? all i know is i ran the missions exactly same method as i did pre-patch & there seems like no change ?
I will take a wild guess and say you used Target Painters? If yes, that's why. AI hates EWAR much more than drones.
Trouble is, drone boats have -1 slot compared to equivalent boats, and squeezing in an EWAR is hard. Not to mention it competes with Omnis AND Navigation computers (which should really be merged into a single module).
Bottom line - congrats on doing it the right way. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1905
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 16:34:00 -
[107] - Quote
Well if the idea is for forcing alt accounts, then that too is going to be bad. The reason is this: people who don't foster a sense a Stockholm Syndrome and convince themselves that they like everything bad are going to see this "you need more accounts" thing as a scam and move on. It's the same thing with PVP: you need an indy alt, scout alt, mission alt.... you get the picture. "Outsiders" - meaning potential subscribers - don't think like subscribers. They have an open mind and have not already invested time for SP. If you need a second account for anything, you also need to pay 100 percent more. Sure there is a PLEX system but that does not hide the sense of having a slot in front of you with a sign saying "you want to do more than just be a noob, keep sticking money in the slot".
This does not affect me much but I am thinking of the mindset of people coming from other places. Even those who are more akin to the concept of F2P/P2W will find this odd and a little scammish.
Perhaps there is a vision of people working together over L4s? I imagine so, and that would be good - but the average age of the player base should be indication enough that people simply lack the time (it's not greed, carebearism, and other such things that the moral superiority crowd claims) for forming fleets. Yes a pack of 15 year olds can pull it off because they got all afternoon to do one thing but if I had a dollar for every time I gotta wait for an hour because "looks like the wife could not get out of work early enough to pick up the kids - I'll be right back!". An hour is all that a lot of players have these days.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
390
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 20:29:00 -
[108] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Alua Oresson wrote:For the PVEing that I do, I find that the change to drones actually makes things easier for me. If you do the right kind of content you don't have to deal with frigates. And seeing as frigates seem to be the only thing to agress sentry drones, I don't even have to recover my drones between waves anymore. Win Win for me. i do Forsaken Hubs too, this change means MUCH more dps for me, I used to use mach/tengu now it's mach rattlesnake. Then i went and tried a Haven, it was a nightmare at warp in range. I refit the mach for artillery and warp my ships in at range and it was just blap blap blappity blap. The change isn't a game ender, just poorly thought out imo. You mean to say that this AI change is a direct blow to L4s (in hi-sec) and makes ratting in null easier? Gasp! We totally did not see this one coming, what with CSM being wall-to-wall nullbears and all. Dinsdale Pirannha, is that you (jk)?
Looking forward to finally having time to try the RS for the first time after the change tonight. Does RR work well for grabbing aggro back? Or TP's? Also should I just take the heavy's out? And notable increase in mission completion times due to frequent recalls? |
ashley Eoner
63
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 22:22:00 -
[109] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Erazar wrote:hmm
ok heres my findings about the drones..
seems to me theres no change with aggro?
i ran about 7-8 L4 missions yesterday in my CNR, did what i usually do, get aggro, release drones on frigs & they didnt get aggro once, which i was suprised at as i was expecting to?
dont know how alot of people are getting aggro, releasing drones too early maybe before you get aggro? all i know is i ran the missions exactly same method as i did pre-patch & there seems like no change ? I will take a wild guess and say you used Target Painters? If yes, that's why. AI hates EWAR much more than drones. Trouble is, drone boats have -1 slot compared to equivalent boats, and squeezing in an EWAR is hard. Not to mention it competes with Omnis AND Navigation computers (which should really be merged into a single module). Bottom line - congrats on doing it the right way. On my rattlesnake I use TP and RR yet no matter how many catches and releases I still end up with a dead drone or two if I try to actually rep them. |
Kagumichan
Deorbit Burners Session Change In Progress Alliance
13
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 22:23:00 -
[110] - Quote
Actually just thought of a way to make these things soloable even with the ewar. Get a ship with long range guns (Beams, Rails, Artillery etc.) and fit a microjumpdrive. When you enter a pocket, if you get scrammed, let out a drone or two to get the scram off you long enough to MJD 100+k away, then snipe everything. Sleeper AI will approach straight at you before switching to orbit, so their transversal is practically none-existant, making it easy for artis, beams and rails to hit direct and pop even the smallest of frigates with minimal tracking enhancement, and also avoids ewar, damage and various other nasty things. If they get close again, MJD further out. It'll make salvaging a bugger afterwards but hey, you'll be perfectly safe popping mission rats.
Sneaky way of showing off your new module CCP! Very sneaky indeed! |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1838
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 22:26:00 -
[111] - Quote
Kagumichan wrote:Actually just thought of a way to make these things soloable even with the ewar. Get a ship with long range guns (Beams, Rails, Artillery etc.) and fit a microjumpdrive. When you enter a pocket, if you get scrammed, let out a drone or two to get the scram off you long enough to MJD 100+k away, then snipe everything. Sleeper AI will approach straight at you before switching to orbit, so their transversal is practically none-existant, making it easy for artis, beams and rails to hit direct and pop even the smallest of frigates with minimal tracking enhancement, and also avoids ewar, damage and various other nasty things. If they get close again, MJD further out. It'll make salvaging a bugger afterwards but hey, you'll be perfectly safe popping mission rats. Sneaky way of showing off your new module CCP! Very sneaky indeed! I was thinking about that. With link augmentors and long range sentries.... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
ashley Eoner
63
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 22:27:00 -
[112] - Quote
Alayna Le'line wrote:ashley Eoner wrote:Alayna Le'line wrote:In the very few L4 missions I've done so far in my Dominix drone aggro has barely been an issue. Then again I run missions ATK...
The only thing I've heard so far that could be problematic (but haven't experienced yet) is people getting full room aggro all the time, which could be slightly annoying (understatement) in missions with lots of NPCs. But this has been happening occasionally (for certain values of occasionally) on some missions since as long as I've been playing and so far I've managed to deal with it every time, I'm sure I'll be okay now as well.
Sure the new AI is slightly more annoying but I think I had to pull in my drones like 2 or 3 times extra during an Angel Extravaganza (my Garde IIs seem to tank Angel Battleships rather fine too, which is awesome). That said, if you don't use sentries you'd better be prepared to lose drones to frigs sooner rather than later as NPCs seem to focus fire a single drone (should be fun when there's loads of frigs...not).
Also I think this change is mostly going to really hit low level missions and low skill characters hard. Level 2s in a Vexor, sound like they should be "fun" with the new aggro mechanics with all the frigs around...
Slightly unrelated: my Dominix gained a bit under 50 drone dps, yay \o/
On a totally related note to all the those that think this change makes L4s harder: they don't. And it doesn't make them any less predictable (or boring) either. NPCs WILL aggro your drones, no exceptions, some faster than others but that's how it is and once you pull them back they won't aggro again, so after the initial aggro it's back to business as usual until the next group spawns or aggros... So you need to do slightly more effort in a predictable way...yawn? According to CCP you're actually abusing a bug that results in the drones not gaining aggro like they are supposed to. That's probably why you're not having the problem others are having since we're not doing the exploit. What you're not doing is reading feedback threads (though tbh it was buried in a load of crap in a stupidly long thread most of which got ignored anyway...). This "exploit" was left in by CCP on purpose, not using it is just making your own life harder for no reason at all. Dev post. At your link...
Quote: While we consider the fact that the AI will only shoot your first flight of drones (this is based on specific criteria such as sig radius) and not a second wave to be a defect, we are not publishing the fix with Retribution. Defect aka BUG which when utilized is an EXPLOIT. Thank you come again. |
Bluddwolf
Heimatar Military Industries
81
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 02:45:00 -
[113] - Quote
Ok, so I ran a level 3 mission last night, to see what all of the complaining was about. I flew my Sleipnir (Command Ship) which could easily rip through lvl 4's (except for the Caldari mission that does the continuous loop of weapons disruption).
I quickly discovered a few things:
1. Kill as many frigates as I could, before deploying drones.
2. Then once there was only 1 or two frigates left, switch to killing cruisers, BCs.
3. Finally, send out the drones to kill off the last of the frigates.
I also learned that I might benefit from a fitting change:
Currently: 7 x 650 Artillery IIs; 1 x Drone Augmentor
New: 6 x 650mm Artillery IIs; 2 x Rocket Launcher IIs or 2 x Missile Launcher IIs
Then I will test this out. If it is effective, then I might drop one more 650 and pick up a tractor beam and dump combat drones and swap them for salvage drones.
This will put my Noctis out of business, but will save me the time in swapping ships. EVE Online Fan ... Looking for "End Game" since 2006 ... Happily, I still havn't found it
|
starbelt stacy
Project-Gonk
25
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 17:54:00 -
[114] - Quote
Haoibuni wrote: Take the plunge and move to null sec.
what if people dont want to move / be forced to null sec?
oh hang on ...... ADAPT right? Sack the dumb mofo who decided to nerf level 4's? .... again!!! |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
536
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 19:01:00 -
[115] - Quote
Kagumichan wrote:Actually just thought of a way to make these things soloable even with the ewar. Get a ship with long range guns (Beams, Rails, Artillery etc.) and fit a microjumpdrive. When you enter a pocket, if you get scrammed, let out a drone or two to get the scram off you long enough to MJD 100+k away, then snipe everything.
Errrm, I seem to recall reading that the new AI can now engage multiple targets at the same time. That is, scram Target A, and shoot Target B. Anyone confirm? If true, to "shake the scram" you would have to deploy drones and send them far enough away to get out of range of scram as the frigs follow the drones. But yeah, in theory it's doable.
|
Alayna Le'line
Battery Acid Skinny Dippers
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 19:42:00 -
[116] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Alayna Le'line wrote:ashley Eoner wrote:Alayna Le'line wrote:In the very few L4 missions I've done so far in my Dominix drone aggro has barely been an issue. Then again I run missions ATK...
The only thing I've heard so far that could be problematic (but haven't experienced yet) is people getting full room aggro all the time, which could be slightly annoying (understatement) in missions with lots of NPCs. But this has been happening occasionally (for certain values of occasionally) on some missions since as long as I've been playing and so far I've managed to deal with it every time, I'm sure I'll be okay now as well.
Sure the new AI is slightly more annoying but I think I had to pull in my drones like 2 or 3 times extra during an Angel Extravaganza (my Garde IIs seem to tank Angel Battleships rather fine too, which is awesome). That said, if you don't use sentries you'd better be prepared to lose drones to frigs sooner rather than later as NPCs seem to focus fire a single drone (should be fun when there's loads of frigs...not).
Also I think this change is mostly going to really hit low level missions and low skill characters hard. Level 2s in a Vexor, sound like they should be "fun" with the new aggro mechanics with all the frigs around...
Slightly unrelated: my Dominix gained a bit under 50 drone dps, yay \o/
On a totally related note to all the those that think this change makes L4s harder: they don't. And it doesn't make them any less predictable (or boring) either. NPCs WILL aggro your drones, no exceptions, some faster than others but that's how it is and once you pull them back they won't aggro again, so after the initial aggro it's back to business as usual until the next group spawns or aggros... So you need to do slightly more effort in a predictable way...yawn? According to CCP you're actually abusing a bug that results in the drones not gaining aggro like they are supposed to. That's probably why you're not having the problem others are having since we're not doing the exploit. What you're not doing is reading feedback threads (though tbh it was buried in a load of crap in a stupidly long thread most of which got ignored anyway...). This "exploit" was left in by CCP on purpose, not using it is just making your own life harder for no reason at all. Dev post. At your link... Quote: While we consider the fact that the AI will only shoot your first flight of drones (this is based on specific criteria such as sig radius) and not a second wave to be a defect, we are not publishing the fix with Retribution. Defect aka BUG which when utilized is an EXPLOIT. Thank you come again. The fix for this bug could be published in any future patch.
It's a bug, not an exploit, might want to learn what an exploit is. It's also not fixed on purpose because otherwise all the missioners would insta-ragequit, so it's even arguable that it's an actual bug. And it's only going to get "fixed" together with other AI changes. |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
27
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 20:51:00 -
[117] - Quote
Alayna Le'line wrote:otherwise all the missioners would insta-ragequit
I know at least 3 people that will quit at the end of their subscription. I'll have the stuff of 2 of them. One of the guys have drone skills only as combat ones.
I even wonder why there is still no response from CCP on drones AI matter. "Adapt" - means you have to stop using the ship you like and start flying Drake or Tengu like the rest nullbear newbs. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1849
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 20:57:00 -
[118] - Quote
Alayna Le'line wrote:ashley Eoner wrote:Alayna Le'line wrote:What you're not doing is reading feedback threads (though tbh it was buried in a load of crap in a stupidly long thread most of which got ignored anyway...). This "exploit" was left in by CCP on purpose, not using it is just making your own life harder for no reason at all. Dev post. At your link... Quote: While we consider the fact that the AI will only shoot your first flight of drones (this is based on specific criteria such as sig radius) and not a second wave to be a defect, we are not publishing the fix with Retribution. Defect aka BUG which when utilized is an EXPLOIT. Thank you come again. The fix for this bug could be published in any future patch. It's a bug, not an exploit, might want to learn what an exploit is, the fact that it was left in on purpose makes it not an exploit. It's also not fixed on purpose because otherwise all the missioners would insta-ragequit, so it's even arguable that it's an actual bug. And it's only going to get "fixed" together with other AI changes. Next time you're watching your drones, remember you have to let them die, recalling them is 'sploitin' Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
ashley Eoner
67
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 21:40:00 -
[119] - Quote
Alayna Le'line wrote: It's a bug, not an exploit, might want to learn what an exploit is, the fact that it was left in on purpose makes it not an exploit. It's also not fixed on purpose because otherwise all the missioners would insta-ragequit, so it's even arguable that it's an actual bug. And it's only going to get "fixed" together with other AI changes.
Yes it's a bug and when you exploit it you're exploiting a bug. It's sort of like when some goonswarm members got greedy and exploited the crap out of the FW rules and then got busted to hell. Eve's history is full of people exploiting game mechanics only to be busted by CCP ..
|
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
192
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 21:43:00 -
[120] - Quote
It's true that in missions where there are not too many spawns, or not too many frigates, drones are still entirely manageable.
However, consider Buzz Kill. Before the patch, it was hard for drones: There are webbing assault frigates galore and scramming frigates, and there were always a few ships that didn't aggro you until you specifically started shooting them. If you forgot to, they'd wait for your drones to launch and then target those.
After the patch? It's a series of small, triggered waves, including multiple waves of 4-5 assault frigates. Running it in a drone boat is going to be incredibly hard.
I'm not complaining, though. If there is going to be any variety in missions, and there should be, then some missions will be bad for some ship types. It's more important, IMO, to solve problems like the Tengu being great at just about everything. |
|
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
404
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 21:48:00 -
[121] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Alua Oresson wrote:For the PVEing that I do, I find that the change to drones actually makes things easier for me. If you do the right kind of content you don't have to deal with frigates. And seeing as frigates seem to be the only thing to agress sentry drones, I don't even have to recover my drones between waves anymore. Win Win for me. i do Forsaken Hubs too, this change means MUCH more dps for me, I used to use mach/tengu now it's mach rattlesnake. Then i went and tried a Haven, it was a nightmare at warp in range. I refit the mach for artillery and warp my ships in at range and it was just blap blap blappity blap. The change isn't a game ender, just poorly thought out imo. You mean to say that this AI change is a direct blow to L4s (in hi-sec) and makes ratting in null easier? Gasp! We totally did not see this one coming, what with CSM being wall-to-wall nullbears and all.
How does having to change to a lower dps (and thus isk) ship "make null ratting easier"?
|
Malphilos
State War Academy Caldari State
227
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 21:54:00 -
[122] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Next time you're watching your drones, remember you have to let them die, recalling them is 'sploitin'
Maybe not Desi, but pulling them in obviously isn't the intended response. It's a mistake.
On the other hand, there have been great turns in the game that happened because of mistakes that have since been corrected.
Exploits never prosper, for if they prosper...
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
2209
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 22:22:00 -
[123] - Quote
Flew a few missions with a Rattlesnake (T2 sentry drones), Oracle and Huginn. Funnily enough when you are webbing and painting targets with a Huginn, the Huginn gets the aggro not the drones. And when you are blowing things up with a Mega Pulse II Oracle (rated at about 1000 DPS on paper), the Oracle gets the aggro (eventually, when the NPCs are bored of shooting the Huginn).
At one point the Rattlesnake was getting shot. I don't know why, might have to do with the Rattlesnake providing RR to the Huginn and Oracle.
So the oldest trick in the EVE play book still works: bring a friend. Try something new.
My typical mission fleet is two drone boats (Dominix, Gila, Rattlesnake, Apocalypse, etc) and a "forward observer". Sometimes it's a Tengu with two Fed Navy webs, other times it's a Huginn. This fleet still works fine.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
473
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 08:15:00 -
[124] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Flew a few missions with a Rattlesnake (T2 sentry drones), Oracle and Huginn. Funnily enough when you are webbing and painting targets with a Huginn, the Huginn gets the aggro not the drones. And when you are blowing things up with a Mega Pulse II Oracle (rated at about 1000 DPS on paper), the Oracle gets the aggro (eventually, when the NPCs are bored of shooting the Huginn).
At one point the Rattlesnake was getting shot. I don't know why, might have to do with the Rattlesnake providing RR to the Huginn and Oracle.
So the oldest trick in the EVE play book still works: bring a friend. Try something new.
My typical mission fleet is two drone boats (Dominix, Gila, Rattlesnake, Apocalypse, etc) and a "forward observer". Sometimes it's a Tengu with two Fed Navy webs, other times it's a Huginn. This fleet still works fine.
You have to agree this will complicate missions for a lot of new players. Ungi ma+¦urinn ++ekkir reglurnar, en gamli ma+¦urinn ++ekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions. |
Mokanor Lenak
Republic University Minmatar Republic
29
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 09:03:00 -
[125] - Quote
DeBingJos wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Flew a few missions with a Rattlesnake (T2 sentry drones), Oracle and Huginn. Funnily enough when you are webbing and painting targets with a Huginn, the Huginn gets the aggro not the drones. And when you are blowing things up with a Mega Pulse II Oracle (rated at about 1000 DPS on paper), the Oracle gets the aggro (eventually, when the NPCs are bored of shooting the Huginn).
At one point the Rattlesnake was getting shot. I don't know why, might have to do with the Rattlesnake providing RR to the Huginn and Oracle.
So the oldest trick in the EVE play book still works: bring a friend. Try something new.
My typical mission fleet is two drone boats (Dominix, Gila, Rattlesnake, Apocalypse, etc) and a "forward observer". Sometimes it's a Tengu with two Fed Navy webs, other times it's a Huginn. This fleet still works fine.
You have to agree this will complicate missions for a lot of new players.
And not everyone wants to have to multi-box, or leeching on friends just to get a mission done. |
Trdina Rasputin
Man-dingo
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 11:25:00 -
[126] - Quote
HydroSan wrote:Gallente can't rat or do missions anymore. Who thought this was a good change?
Talk for your self. i don't have problems. |
Xenos van Omega
The nasty Nomads
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 11:51:00 -
[127] - Quote
Kagumichan wrote:The drone tactic saved my Rokh earlier.
Doing The Assault, level 4, Serpentis... upon warping in the entire room aggroed immediately (that's about 30 frigates, 30 battlecruisers and 10 battleships), 6 sensor dampeners dropped my locking range down to 18k and then the dampers flew around me at 30k, whilst two frigs came in and warp scrambled me. The moment I let out the drones to blow up the scramblers everything, except the scrambling frigs, shot the drones and started popping them. That left me with two options:
1. Sit there and die 2. Drop all my drones and pray to the almighty God of pure luck that either my drones could take the scramble frigs off before they all blew up, or that the scrambling frigs would switch targets.
By pure luck, option 2 happened just as my hull was buckling, and my brave Warrior II's stayed behind and sacrificed themselves whilst I, now looking like a giant flaming fireball, went to go and pay a 9 million isk repair bill, having been completely unable to kill or even lock onto a target in that mission.
Blitz: The gate is not locked, go straight to Pocket 2 and 3
dont kill anything in room 1 and 2, just go gate to next
|
Kagumichan
Deorbit Burners Session Change In Progress Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 12:11:00 -
[128] - Quote
Xenos van Omega wrote:Blitz: The gate is not locked, go straight to Pocket 2 and 3
dont kill anything in room 1 and 2, just go gate to next
And miss out on all that loot, salvage and bounty? Hell no! :P |
March rabbit
Aliastra
283
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 12:55:00 -
[129] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Xearal wrote:OR.. you could you know.. adapt..
As in, buy Tengu and be insta-adapted to any possible niche in the game? Because training for a tengu is just a trivial thing to do. Its not like it requires mastery in each subsystems focus, like ECM, cloaking, propulsion or whatever. Nevermind the time for the weapons systems or the t1 ship requirements. And laugh out loud to the low price they sell for. actually you need (for PVE): - Caldary Strategy Cruiser to 1 - 4-5 subsystems to 4 - T2 heavy missiles (it's like 10 days) Total: 15 days or about
And it will be enough for PVE while you training those "needed lvl5s" |
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
473
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 12:58:00 -
[130] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Xearal wrote:OR.. you could you know.. adapt..
As in, buy Tengu and be insta-adapted to any possible niche in the game? Because training for a tengu is just a trivial thing to do. Its not like it requires mastery in each subsystems focus, like ECM, cloaking, propulsion or whatever. Nevermind the time for the weapons systems or the t1 ship requirements. And laugh out loud to the low price they sell for. actually you need (for PVE): - Caldary Strategy Cruiser to 1 - 4-5 subsystems to 4 - T2 heavy missiles (it's like 10 days) Total: 15 days or about And it will be enough for PVE while you training those "needed lvl5s" You forgot cruiser V so make that 15 + 30 = 45 days.
(That is still not much.)
Ungi ma+¦urinn ++ekkir reglurnar, en gamli ma+¦urinn ++ekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions. |
|
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
537
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 13:41:00 -
[131] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Alua Oresson wrote:For the PVEing that I do, I find that the change to drones actually makes things easier for me. If you do the right kind of content you don't have to deal with frigates. And seeing as frigates seem to be the only thing to agress sentry drones, I don't even have to recover my drones between waves anymore. Win Win for me. i do Forsaken Hubs too, this change means MUCH more dps for me, I used to use mach/tengu now it's mach rattlesnake. Then i went and tried a Haven, it was a nightmare at warp in range. I refit the mach for artillery and warp my ships in at range and it was just blap blap blappity blap. The change isn't a game ender, just poorly thought out imo. You mean to say that this AI change is a direct blow to L4s (in hi-sec) and makes ratting in null easier? Gasp! We totally did not see this one coming, what with CSM being wall-to-wall nullbears and all. How does having to change to a lower dps (and thus isk) ship "make null ratting easier"?
Answer, it doesn't, but darn it Doddy, you shouldn't try to come between him and his prejudice of both null sec and people who actually to time to VOTE for CSM through the clicking of a couple of mouse buttons.....which must be too much effort for the majority of high sec people......
CCP Gargant:-á this game requires a certain amount of simply going out there and chatting with people. You will get scammed, destroyed, cheated, trolled, and blown up but that is just a part of the essence of this game. -á |
Mokanor Lenak
Republic University Minmatar Republic
30
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 19:00:00 -
[132] - Quote
DeBingJos wrote: You forgot cruiser V so make that 15 + 30 = 45 days.
(That is still not much.)
From zero, a fit like this:
Quote: [Tengu, Assist] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Gistum B-Type Medium Shield Booster Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field Gist B-Type EM Ward Field Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
(Which is a bit expensive, but a decent one, can be changed for less or more tank, specific or omni for TP or not, whatever you want). This takes about 80 days without remap, and without any skilling in missile support skills or anything in the 4-5 subsystems.
A player who does not fly caldari from the start, will take him a good time to get this up and running. Just saying. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1855
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 19:12:00 -
[133] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Doddy wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote:You mean to say that this AI change is a direct blow to L4s (in hi-sec) and makes ratting in null easier? Gasp! We totally did not see this one coming, what with CSM being wall-to-wall nullbears and all. How does having to change to a lower dps (and thus isk) ship "make null ratting easier"? Answer, it doesn't, but darn it Doddy, you shouldn't try to come between him and his prejudice of both null sec and people who actually to time to VOTE for CSM through the clicking of a couple of mouse buttons.....which must be too much effort for the majority of high sec people...... Tsk, people need to learn how GD works. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
540
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 19:17:00 -
[134] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Doddy wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote:You mean to say that this AI change is a direct blow to L4s (in hi-sec) and makes ratting in null easier? Gasp! We totally did not see this one coming, what with CSM being wall-to-wall nullbears and all. How does having to change to a lower dps (and thus isk) ship "make null ratting easier"? Answer, it doesn't, but darn it Doddy, you shouldn't try to come between him and his prejudice of both null sec and people who actually to time to VOTE for CSM through the clicking of a couple of mouse buttons.....which must be too much effort for the majority of high sec people...... Tsk, people need to learn how GD works.
Yeah, seriously. An obvious sarcastic remark like that, based on what someone else said about this change on Test Server forums earlier, followed by a " " and they fall for that? Welcome to GD, fellas! |
Castor Narcissus
STARMINE inc Solaris Mortis
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 19:50:00 -
[135] - Quote
Here an email for a 2 month offer for the new expansion! Oh btw we just made using your drone boat a pain in the ass. Enjoy.
At least ccp got my 20 euros. |
Celestra Doxaila
MinTek Heavy Industries
28
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 20:26:00 -
[136] - Quote
The new Algos and Dragoon are almost like a counter to the new drone-eating AI. The big 25% bonus makes the drones so fast that most of the frigates are dead before they can get a shot off. And as OP says, if you see a drone take a slice of damage, hit recall and light drones go from 50km out to in your drone bay in a few seconds.
Light drones seem to fly even faster than light missiles for taking out frigates at range.
Take out the NPC frigates first can you can run missions just like you always have. |
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
253
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 21:33:00 -
[137] - Quote
Drones were the perfect counter measure for Serpentis parallel/sequential damping. You can't get a lock? That's okay, your drones can thin out the field.
If soloing, what is the counter measure for the Serpentis damping now? Because "disposable drones" is not really an option or a viable strategy in my opinion. I'm happy to admit my ignorance if anybody has a great counter measure. The inability to lock means guns or missiles are really ineffective. What? Smartbombs?
The new AI, with it's insane focus on drones, effectively eliminates the perfect counter measure to Serpentis damping. This makes no sense in a game that is supposedly akin to rock/paper/scissors with systems of checks and balances. It is beyond adaptation. It is now wildly imbalanced.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1858
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 23:41:00 -
[138] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:This makes no sense in a game that is supposedly akin to rock/paper/scissors with systems of checks and balances. It is beyond adaptation. It is now wildly imbalanced. EVE Online, wildly imbalanced? No way.... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
31
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 00:24:00 -
[139] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:Drones were the perfect counter measure for Serpentis parallel/sequential damping. You can't get a lock? That's okay, your drones can thin out the field.
If soloing, what is the counter measure for the Serpentis damping now? Because "disposable drones" is not really an option or a viable strategy in my opinion. I'm happy to admit my ignorance if anybody has a great counter measure. The inability to lock means guns or missiles are really ineffective. What? Smartbombs?
The new AI, with it's insane focus on drones, effectively eliminates the perfect counter measure to Serpentis damping. This makes no sense in a game that is supposedly akin to rock/paper/scissors with systems of checks and balances. It is beyond adaptation. It is now wildly imbalanced.
It's not a "perfect counter measure", it's the only way to deal with the dampers. "Adapt" - means you have to stop using the ship you like and start flying Drake or Tengu like the rest nullbear newbs. |
Mars Theran
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
492
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 00:53:00 -
[140] - Quote
Haoibuni wrote:Gallente guys who are a bit new and despairing at all their time spent skilling drones:
Take the plunge and move to null sec. You can do forsaken hubs. These hubs don't have any frigate rats and the cruisers / BSs don't target your sentries.
Your sentry domi will shine. You can make 35mill ticks (subject to tax) with good sentry drone skills and BS5 even with crappy T1 guns.
Probably 30mill with BS4.
Do 4 of them in a row, will take 1hr 15mins, and then go salvage the 4 on the trot. Just 4 warps required all in the same system and you get another 35-50mill in salvage / loot for an additional 20mins work
So that nets you about 150mill for 1hr 35mins ratting.
Domi fit doesn't need to be pimp neither (use ASB fit - they work even after nerf) as it's a tiny bit risky as it has to sit still.
Or sod the drones and do the above in a naga (but needs T2 guns and Void to pull in the best isk/hr).
I always wonder why Null sec players encourage this when Complexes and the like have respawn timers that generally mean they are limited use for all players.
More players means less opportunity to do them. In highsec, even as worthless as these places are, they are often empty. In Lowsec, I'd guess they aren't particularly available either, though it's not like you have much opportunity to check them there. I never do, or almost never.
Null barely has enough interesting plexes to feed the interested players there; why would you invite more players unless you were just shamelessly plugging and didn't realize that they were being used up by the players you already have, or just didn't care.
Always loved the, "Let them fight about it when they get here," attitude to recruiting; it adds such long term stability to organizations that rely on it." zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub |
|
Mars Theran
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
493
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 01:06:00 -
[141] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:Drones were the perfect counter measure for Serpentis parallel/sequential damping. You can't get a lock? That's okay, your drones can thin out the field.
If soloing, what is the counter measure for the Serpentis damping now? Because "disposable drones" is not really an option or a viable strategy in my opinion. I'm happy to admit my ignorance if anybody has a great counter measure. The inability to lock means guns or missiles are really ineffective. What? Smartbombs?
The new AI, with it's insane focus on drones, effectively eliminates the perfect counter measure to Serpentis damping. This makes no sense in a game that is supposedly akin to rock/paper/scissors with systems of checks and balances. It is beyond adaptation. It is now wildly imbalanced.
Cripes.. just reship and/or refit. This isn't that hard to conceive of unless you are already an Alt who has been trained only for a specific ship and fit, and moved to a secondary slot after.
Damps reduce range; use mods to increase range. If too many damps and or other EWAR to counter effectively, find another tactic. Too many small ships; bring in a Smartbombing Abaddon. Start the mission in a Destroyer, use Light or Medium Drones until Cruisers are dealt with. Bring more people.
With Missions being harder to solo, that means that will affect all players equally provided there is a limited ability for them to adapt to it, and higher risk for those that do. That means more players will be interested in teamwork to complete these missions. Teamwork means you have more people who can open missions and selectively choose which ones you are going to run.
etc..
This isn't complicated. Of course, I haven't run a level 4 in ages, but I used to run C6 Sleeper sites with friends and that wasn't so hard.
The average Missioners problem is mostly that he is interested only in completing a string of highly predictable monotonous tasks in order to achieve a short term goal. Warp in, catch aggro, release drones, select targets, reference mission report for spawn triggers, kill other ships, move forward, use long range guns to grab additional aggro, rinse, repeat, etc.. zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub |
Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
290
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 01:11:00 -
[142] - Quote
They still aren't getting that the sleepers are still harder than the lvl 4 missions, huh?
Maybe CCP oughtta put some real sleeper AI into mission rats just to show them how easy they really have it. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Mars Theran
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
493
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 01:20:00 -
[143] - Quote
Sorry, a lot of negative, closed-minded reactions on the forums lately have made me rather irritable and maybe a bit harsh in my responses to some posts such as these.
If it were any other game and you were playing it for the first time, would you have a difficulty adapting to the situations you encounter and finding a means to overcome them?
Of course you wouldn't; now go out and do it. zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub |
Alayna Le'line
Battery Acid Skinny Dippers
34
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 01:39:00 -
[144] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Alayna Le'line wrote: It's a bug, not an exploit, might want to learn what an exploit is, the fact that it was left in on purpose makes it not an exploit. It's also not fixed on purpose because otherwise all the missioners would insta-ragequit, so it's even arguable that it's an actual bug. And it's only going to get "fixed" together with other AI changes.
Yes it's a bug and when you exploit it you're exploiting a bug. It's sort of like when some goonswarm members got greedy and exploited the crap out of the FW rules and then got busted to hell. Eve's history is full of people exploiting game mechanics only to be busted by CCP ..
Right, let me try to explain this to you again. CCP knows of this unintended behaviour, CCP is not fixing this unintended behaviour because they know missioning in drone boats is otherwise too hard for most to handle. CCP will fix this behaviour when they make further changes to the mission rat AI. So simply put: this behaviour was unintended but ended up being beneficial to more or less keep drone boats usable in missions. As such it was kept until they make further changes to the AI, this makes it neither a bug nor an exploit for all practical purposes. That is all. Now kindly stop spreading FUD.
On a related note, sleepers have no bearing on this discussion, sleeper sites were designed with sleepers in mind, missions were not. There's a reason you don't find huge numbers of sleepers in one pocket. Also, sleeper sites give "slightly" better rewards than level 4s. |
Johan Civire
Dirty Curse inc.
217
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 01:50:00 -
[145] - Quote
Edey wrote:Now that I can't do L4 missions with my drones, can I have a skills remap?
No, this is not a joke or a troll. I really want a remap, this is fair. In any other game when devs nerf something to hell they give you a respec so you have a choice. Having mostly drone skills cuts your ability to do anything right now.
iam sorry you feel like that afk mining was also removed. Now afk mision running to. To bad your playing like a world of warcraft player. Make it to hard for you? then eve is not your game. Atleast eve is not brainless farming skills...
Time to go play a other game then. |
Jawas
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 01:51:00 -
[146] - Quote
Manes Avatarr wrote: 1. We will encourage ppl to team play in PVE and mission ops will become more popular. 2. We need to cut down easy money from L4s 3. Solo pilots will start new account and pay us more 4. Some ppl will whine about it, some will enjoy changes. Ppl will adapt, eventually.
1. Or players will quit. 2. The easy money is on mining instead now that the Venture is here. 3. Or solo pilots will quit. 4. Or people will quit.
Personally, I don't find it that much different but I only use drones for additional DPS, it just takes me a tiny bit longer to pop a battleship than before without my drones but I can live with that. I managed to solo Angel Extravaganza which has always been a PITA and I've been soloing lvl4's a lot on my Amarr main since the patch, more often than not, with the Absolution rather than the Paladin.
I usually pop any frigates first or send the drones after them if they get in under my range and that sorts out the webbers and scramblers and leaves me free to warp out if things get too rough. Then work my way up in size rather than down, taking the cruisers out next which cuts down the DPS considerably and the remaining battleships, I can tank all day. Not had to warp out yet though. But that has always been my strategy ever since I started doing lvl4's before Blood Lines.
To save the drones on most occasions, I recall them between each wave, wait until I have aggro and then deploy them to take out frigates. What I actually dislike is how easy a NPC battleship can pop your drones from 60K away compared to how difficult it is for you to pop drones in a battleship due to tracking limitations and their tiny sig radius. Also not good how a NPC battleship or even a cruiser can lock your drones in a couple of seconds compared to your 30 seconds or more to lock a drone, even with sensor boosters.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
393
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 02:06:00 -
[147] - Quote
Johan Civire wrote:Edey wrote:Now that I can't do L4 missions with my drones, can I have a skills remap?
No, this is not a joke or a troll. I really want a remap, this is fair. In any other game when devs nerf something to hell they give you a respec so you have a choice. Having mostly drone skills cuts your ability to do anything right now. iam sorry you feel like that afk mining was also removed. Now afk mision running to. To bad your playing like a world of warcraft player. Make it to hard for you? then eve is not your game. Atleast eve is not brainless farming game. Time to go play a other game then. While I won't defend the request for remap, not every drone user was AFK. I enjoyed my RS in mission due to the effective range and good damage application which I made full use of by manually engaging my drones save when I was prevented from it by ewar. Things got harder for people like me as well, not just AFK'ers. |
Tortise Winkle VonDudenberg
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 02:17:00 -
[148] - Quote
This patch mainly effects Botters. I suspect everyone in here complaining are just that. Because if they knew how to play eve, They wouldn't be using drones.
You are all bot users and should all be banned. |
Angus Christine Merrigold
The Restless Masquerade Hedonistic Imperative
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 02:22:00 -
[149] - Quote
Who is moderating this forum??? Where is my post??? 3 hours later and it still isn't on here. Why am I being silenced!?!?!?
|
raskonalkov
Tie Fighters Inc
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 02:44:00 -
[150] - Quote
^ You should of done a cheap post and allowed it to be sacrificed, then put out the better high quality post.
gotta learn how to play |
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Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
186
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 03:04:00 -
[151] - Quote
Tortise Winkle VonDudenberg wrote:You are all bot users and should all be banned.
I agree. Ban all botters. Nullsec would become completely vacant overnight. EvE Forum Bingo |
Johan Civire
Dirty Curse inc.
217
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 03:51:00 -
[152] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Tortise Winkle VonDudenberg wrote:You are all bot users and should all be banned. I agree. Ban all botters. Nullsec would become completely vacant overnight.
i agree on that one to however ban every bot will indeed losing 10k more subs in the process and also empty 0.0 sec....
So we got a issue then also dont forget that are 20k people using more than 1 account so if you can coint there is not many players that play legit with 1 account only. so eve is compleet empty ? |
Galphii
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
84
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 05:09:00 -
[153] - Quote
Something to consider: CCP Ytterbium said at the fanfest that missions were boring, anti-social, and needed to be fixed. PvP content is more important to fix than PvE content, but at some point, they're going to revamp the mission system to make it play more like PvP (woo!) So don't write Eve off yet, the devs know missions are broken and have been for a long time. Oh, and the irony here is that drones are awesome in lowsec now, as gate guns won't target them. Come to lowsec and play |
Ludi Burek
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
200
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 05:18:00 -
[154] - Quote
The wailing of the mission runners is a melody of pure bliss.
Reminds me of the first few incursion days, until those despicable assholes adapted. |
Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
296
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 05:40:00 -
[155] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote:
If soloing, what is the counter measure for the Serpentis damping now? Because "disposable drones" is not really an option or a viable strategy in my opinion. I'm happy to admit my ignorance if anybody has a great counter measure.
Excellent. Then I would advise you check out the marketplace for four new skills so you may reduce your ignorance:
Magnetometric Sensor Compensation;
Gravimetric Sensor Compensation;
Ladar Sensor Compensation;
& Radar Sensor Compensation
You will find what ships they best suit in the skill explanations. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
187
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 05:43:00 -
[156] - Quote
Ludi Burek wrote:The wailing of the mission runners is a melody of pure bliss. Reminds me of the first few incursion days, until those despicable assholes adapted.
Your mother abandoned you on the steps of a plastic surgeon's office.
EvE Forum Bingo |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
337
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 05:52:00 -
[157] - Quote
End conclusion, Anyone who does level 4's hates the change. Anyone who doesn't do level 4's is sitting on the forums rubbing it in their face, you know because EVE has a mature user base.. |
Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
297
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 05:54:00 -
[158] - Quote
Ocih wrote:End conclusion, Anyone who does level 4's hates the change. Anyone who doesn't do level 4's is sitting on the forums rubbing it in their face, you know because EVE has a mature user base..
There are also those people doing level 4s successfully, and still enjoying them, like most of my corp, and have nothing to complain about and no reason to be on the forums. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
337
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 05:57:00 -
[159] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Ocih wrote:End conclusion, Anyone who does level 4's hates the change. Anyone who doesn't do level 4's is sitting on the forums rubbing it in their face, you know because EVE has a mature user base.. There are also those people doing level 4s successfully, and still enjoying them, like most of my corp, and have nothing to complain about and no reason to be on the forums.
I use rails for missions too. Doesn't mean I support a one size fits all mission system. |
Galphii
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
88
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 06:06:00 -
[160] - Quote
You know, there IS a weapon system perfectly suited to killing tacklers, and ships like the rattlesnake and the marauders can fit them pretty easily - smartbombs. Sure, they're potentially lethal to use in highsec, but hey, no guts, no glory! A couple of those babies will fry up enemy tacklers good and fast. Just make sure you don't have a cloaked friend hovering nearby Problem solved. |
|
Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
299
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 06:16:00 -
[161] - Quote
Ocih wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Ocih wrote:End conclusion, Anyone who does level 4's hates the change. Anyone who doesn't do level 4's is sitting on the forums rubbing it in their face, you know because EVE has a mature user base.. There are also those people doing level 4s successfully, and still enjoying them, like most of my corp, and have nothing to complain about and no reason to be on the forums. I use rails for missions too. Doesn't mean I support a one size fits all mission system.
I didn't say they were using rails. I didn't say they were using drones. I said they were doing level 4 missions. Successfully.
I don't much support a "one size fits all" mission system either, and neither does my corp, which is why we don't rely on just one ship and just one tactic for all missions. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
299
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 06:17:00 -
[162] - Quote
Galphii wrote:You know, there IS a weapon system perfectly suited to killing tacklers, and ships like the rattlesnake and the marauders can fit them pretty easily - smartbombs. Sure, they're potentially lethal to use in highsec, but hey, no guts, no glory! A couple of those babies will fry up enemy tacklers good and fast. Just make sure you don't have a cloaked friend hovering nearby Problem solved.
Yeah... loosing a smartbomb in highsec now gets you c-flagged instantly, not just if it kills someone illegally. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Zack Korth
The Deneveh Collective High Rollers
37
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 06:25:00 -
[163] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Tried that, it didn't work. When you've got 30+ rats on your screen and all of them decide to alpha your drones at once, the drones die. First salvo. The end. And that's exactly what happens, by the way.
As people have pointed out, Sleeper AI works in sleeper sights because you're only facing 5 or 6 ships at once (or so I'm told). But when you plug that same AI into 30+ ships at once it turns into the dysfunctional mess we have now.
What's really pathetic is that it's obvious that CCP removed things like "lock on time" from NPC ships, at least in regard to drones. You can deploy a flight of light drones - the smallest sig - and enemy battleships will be shooting at them in under a second. Have you ever tried to target a drone in a player ship? It takes forever. The tiny sigs come into play when we try to target drones. The NPCs? Not even part of the equation.
And because sig is no longer part of the equation the drones are now getting hit far more often than before. See, rats have always been able to target drones. The question was "Could they hit them?" Little light drones had few HP but we good at dodging fire. Big drones had lots of HP but were easier for NPCs to hit. But now that mechanic has gone out the window and NPCs hitting drones has become automatic. If they're in range, they hit. Drone signature radius has obviously been removed from all NPC calculations.
Read the original post, drones aren't getting insta popped, they also aren't stealing the aggro of an entire room unless your running complexes in a rifter. I play the game too, I know better.
|
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
337
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 06:30:00 -
[164] - Quote
The trouble with your "solutions" CCP is EVE is a gear grinder and ISK is how we are competitive. Nerf income, you nerf a players ability to compete. You shouldn't be nerfing income faucets. Any income faucets. You should be addressing the monopolies and bottlenecks that create ISK mountains.
No player in this game should be a trillionaire.
For those with tunnel vision, this is related to the drone nerf. The drone nerf was a PvE nerf, the same is the HML nerf was a PvE nerf, the opposite of the over powered Artillery never getting nerfed because Artillery for PvE are fail.
The problem is not that a level 4 mission runner makes too much ISK. It's that most of that ISK is being sent to other players who have no reason to take it out of the game. That's why ISK volumes rise. You know this though. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
431
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 07:05:00 -
[165] - Quote
Aziesta wrote:Katran Luftschreck wrote:Problem with this theory about "removing frigates at close range" is "HOW?" Rightclick -> launch drones. Rightclick -> attack target. When they take a large amount of damage, Rightclick->return to drone bay. Honestly, if I can do it without drone hp or damage bonuses on my ship, I'll bet you can do it too. It might require some extra clicking and, god forbid, paying attention.
Perhaps you would be good enough to record a mission and then post it on You Tube so we can all learn your tactics that the rest of we dumb drone users clearly are too dumb to grasp.
Let's see, how about L4 Mordus Headhunters, or the Serp, Angel, or Sansha room from WC 4. Or Buzzkill. Yes, I would love to see a You Tube video of Buzzkill.
|
baltec1
Bat Country
3104
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 07:33:00 -
[166] - Quote
This topic confirms that a good bulk of mission runners are just as terrible at adapting as miners. |
Emeric Jadgoth
Southern Gold Salvage Operations
8
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 07:47:00 -
[167] - Quote
Zack Korth wrote:Katran Luftschreck wrote:Tried that, it didn't work. When you've got 30+ rats on your screen and all of them decide to alpha your drones at once, the drones die. First salvo. The end. And that's exactly what happens, by the way.
As people have pointed out, Sleeper AI works in sleeper sights because you're only facing 5 or 6 ships at once (or so I'm told). But when you plug that same AI into 30+ ships at once it turns into the dysfunctional mess we have now.
What's really pathetic is that it's obvious that CCP removed things like "lock on time" from NPC ships, at least in regard to drones. You can deploy a flight of light drones - the smallest sig - and enemy battleships will be shooting at them in under a second. Have you ever tried to target a drone in a player ship? It takes forever. The tiny sigs come into play when we try to target drones. The NPCs? Not even part of the equation.
And because sig is no longer part of the equation the drones are now getting hit far more often than before. See, rats have always been able to target drones. The question was "Could they hit them?" Little light drones had few HP but we good at dodging fire. Big drones had lots of HP but were easier for NPCs to hit. But now that mechanic has gone out the window and NPCs hitting drones has become automatic. If they're in range, they hit. Drone signature radius has obviously been removed from all NPC calculations. Read the original post, drones aren't getting insta popped, they also aren't stealing the aggro of an entire room unless your running complexes in a rifter. I play the game too, I know better.
Then you're lucky. A lot of us are getting our drones killed before they can do any significant damage to circling frigates. |
baltec1
Bat Country
3104
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 08:03:00 -
[168] - Quote
Emeric Jadgoth wrote: Then you're lucky. A lot of us are getting our drones killed before they can do any significant damage to circling frigates.
How? Are you just launching them and ignoring them untill they start to explode or something because that is the only way I can see this happening. |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
33
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 08:15:00 -
[169] - Quote
Zack Korth wrote: Read the original post, drones aren't getting insta popped, they also aren't stealing the aggro of an entire room unless your running complexes in a rifter. I play the game too, I know better.
"drones aren't getting insta popped" made me laugh hard! Yes, they are!
Moreover did anyone try new salvaging drones?! I did! The coolest thing about them is rats attack them too. It's not just a neutral groups! The ones that attack you can fire a few shots at them. How the salvager drones make aggro by salvaging?!
Also painters don't help much. Today I did 5 missions for a test. Used Painter, then Drones. Lost 4 drones. Cool stuff. "Adapt" - means you have to stop using the ship you like and start flying Drake or Tengu like the rest nullbear newbs. |
Terazul
The Scope Gallente Federation
58
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 08:23:00 -
[170] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Perhaps you would be good enough to record a mission and then post it on You Tube so we can all learn your tactics that the rest of we dumb drone users clearly are too dumb to grasp.
Let's see, how about L4 Mordus Headhunters, or the Serp, Angel, or Sansha room from WC 4. Or Buzzkill. Yes, I would love to see a You Tube video of Buzzkill.
Even the first room of The Assault for Serpentis is basically impossible to do now. Between the constant dampening, the instant room aggro and the drone aggro that instantly pops whatever you throw at them, there's nothing you can do without an alt to draw fire.
I have to skip that room every time now. That's incredibly depressing. |
|
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
790
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 08:40:00 -
[171] - Quote
Have drone mission runners become the new 'miners' for the pixel hardmen to pick on? This is not a signature. |
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ISD TYPE40
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3264
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 08:43:00 -
[172] - Quote
This thread has been cleaned for breaches of the following rules:
Forum Rules wrote:
4. Be respectful of others at all times.
The purpose of the forum is to provide a platform for the exchange of ideas. Occasionally, there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Be courteous when disagreeing with others. It is possible to disagree without being insulting.
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Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another. Text of this nature is not beneficial to the community spirit and will not be tolerated. Corporation, faction and alliance members and other players are cautioned to avoid allowing GÇ£in characterGÇ¥ disputes from becoming "out of character" personal attacks. The game is designed for role-playing and/or portraying a role and it is sometimes easy for tempers to flare when the lines between the virtual world and the real world are crossed. Please keep in-game disputes in the game and off the forum unless it is clearly a mutual, in-character exchange.
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Trolling is the word used to describe a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players. Posts of this nature are disruptive and do not contribute to the sense of community we want for our forums.
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Using partial masking (such as asterisks or punctuation marks) to bypass the profanity filter is prohibited and will result in the same action as if the actual word had been typed.
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Negative feedback can be very useful, provided that it is presented in a civil, factual manner. Tell us what you don't like and why and how you feel it could be improved. Posts that are not constructive, insulting or rude may be deleted, no matter how valid the ideas behind them may be.
Please stay on topic, thank you - ISD Type40. ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Mokanor Lenak
Republic University Minmatar Republic
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 09:31:00 -
[173] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:
It's not a "perfect counter measure", it's the only way to deal with the dampers.
Or the guristas constant ECM lock on some missions or sites (if you are not a FoF missile lover, which isn't perfect either). |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
431
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 09:35:00 -
[174] - Quote
Terazul wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Perhaps you would be good enough to record a mission and then post it on You Tube so we can all learn your tactics that the rest of we dumb drone users clearly are too dumb to grasp.
Let's see, how about L4 Mordus Headhunters, or the Serp, Angel, or Sansha room from WC 4. Or Buzzkill. Yes, I would love to see a You Tube video of Buzzkill.
Even the first room of The Assault for Serpentis is basically impossible to do now. Between the constant dampening, the instant room aggro and the drone aggro that instantly pops whatever you throw at them, there's nothing you can do without an alt to draw fire. I have to skip that room every time now. That's incredibly depressing.
I had just finished a large post explaining how to do this particular mission and ones like it when ISD fouled up the thread and I lost my entire post.
I tested like mad on Duality, and my posts are all over the AI dev log in the test server forum.
Anyway, here goes again:
This will work with an speed tanked Ishtar, likely a Rattler, and maybe a tanked Domi, but I can't guarantee that. The new AI has something that CCP calls a "defect" .Their word, not mine. They are also anxious to close this defect, so this tactic won't work that long. Fox Four stated this in the dev blog about the AI. This tactic is discussed in that AI discussion thread.
1. Warp into a site. 2. Acquire all aggro in the room on your ship. 3. Release a flight of sentries, and keep them VERY CLOSE to your ship. You can also use a single T1 light drone as a sacrificial drone as well here. 4. Drones will be aggroed very quickly, you know this already. 5. Immediately recall the sentries as soon as they start taking damage. 6. Wait until all NPC's aggro your ship again. 7. Release your hobs, and hammer the close in frigs. 8. They should now be ignored by any NPC's in the spawn on the field with you when you released that 2nd flight. 9. Any additional spawns, repeat steps 2-8.
This works because of the "defect" where the AI only goes after the initial flight of drones, and you know how devastating that is. But it does allow drone users to survive, at least until CCP closes this loophole. Once they do that, it is lights out for all drones as a PvE platform.
Oh, and before anybody gets the idea of suggesting to an ISD that this is an "exploit", Fox Four herself discusses this in the features and testing threads, and CCP was aware of it, and released the code anyway. And for the true zealots who want to shut anybody down who uses this tactic, CCP never took away the billions and billions people made with 3 day alts FW LP farming using a broken mechanic.
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Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
33
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 09:43:00 -
[175] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Terazul wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Perhaps you would be good enough to record a mission and then post it on You Tube so we can all learn your tactics that the rest of we dumb drone users clearly are too dumb to grasp.
Let's see, how about L4 Mordus Headhunters, or the Serp, Angel, or Sansha room from WC 4. Or Buzzkill. Yes, I would love to see a You Tube video of Buzzkill.
Even the first room of The Assault for Serpentis is basically impossible to do now. Between the constant dampening, the instant room aggro and the drone aggro that instantly pops whatever you throw at them, there's nothing you can do without an alt to draw fire. I have to skip that room every time now. That's incredibly depressing. I had just finished a large post explaining how to do this particular mission and ones like it when ISD fouled up the thread and I lost my entire post. I tested like mad on Duality, and my posts are all over the AI dev log in the test server forum. Anyway, here goes again: This will work with an speed tanked Ishtar, likely a Rattler, and maybe a tanked Domi, but I can't guarantee that. The new AI has something that CCP calls a "defect" .Their word, not mine. They are also anxious to close this defect, so this tactic won't work that long. Fox Four stated this in the dev blog about the AI. This tactic is discussed in that AI discussion thread. 1. Warp into a site. 2. Acquire all aggro in the room on your ship. 3. Release a flight of sentries, and keep them VERY CLOSE to your ship. You can also use a single T1 light drone as a sacrificial drone as well here. 4. Drones will be aggroed very quickly, you know this already. 5. Immediately recall the sentries as soon as they start taking damage. 6. Wait until all NPC's aggro your ship again. 7. Release your hobs, and hammer the close in frigs. 8. They should now be ignored by any NPC's in the spawn on the field with you when you released that 2nd flight. 9. Any additional spawns, repeat steps 2-8. This works because of the "defect" where the AI only goes after the initial flight of drones, and you know how devastating that is. But it does allow drone users to survive, at least until CCP closes this loophole. Once they do that, it is lights out for all drones as a PvE platform. Oh, and before anybody gets the idea of suggesting to an ISD that this is an "exploit", Fox Four herself discusses this in the features and testing threads, and CCP was aware of it, and released the code anyway. And for the true zealots who want to shut anybody down who uses this tactic, CCP never took away the billions and billions people made with 3 day alts FW LP farming using a broken mechanic.
I read somewhere they fixed it already. Or will fix this very soon. "Adapt" - means you have to stop using the ship you like and start flying Drake or Tengu like the rest nullbear newbs. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
434
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 10:02:00 -
[176] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:
I read somewhere they fixed it already. Or will fix this very soon.
I would not be surprised if they did. I do know that I ran Angels Extravaganza 4 about 36 hours ago, and it worked then. But yeah, there is no doubt that CCP is anxious to make missions even "more enjoyable" as soon as possible.
Last night I started doing Incursions again after about a 7 month stint away from them (I did not do any post nerf). I expect that Incursion competition will get ramped up fast fast when this "fix" happens.
It will indeed be a wasteland again for low SP players, as their mission income will be hammered, and if Incursions start getting competitive again, there will be no room in them again except for the uber-skilled pilots.
The one good thing from this, from a purely selfish point of view, is I have a ton of LP with a couple stores that supply a number of in-demand PvP faction items. Those items will soar in value as there will be less people casing in LP to supply those items. |
baltec1
Bat Country
3104
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 10:05:00 -
[177] - Quote
Mokanor Lenak wrote:
Or the guristas constant ECM lock on some missions or sites (if you are not a FoF missile lover, which isn't perfect either).
ECCM or a sensor backup array. |
Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
302
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 10:08:00 -
[178] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mokanor Lenak wrote:
Or the guristas constant ECM lock on some missions or sites (if you are not a FoF missile lover, which isn't perfect either).
ECCM or a sensor backup array.
Not to mention, again, the four new skills for countering ewar. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
baltec1
Bat Country
3105
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 10:09:00 -
[179] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Not to mention, again, the four new skills for countering ewar.
Knew I forgot to do something last night. |
Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
302
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 10:13:00 -
[180] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:
Not to mention, again, the four new skills for countering ewar.
Knew I forgot to do something last night.
I've got my Magnetometric on level 5, now, and the rest on level three. I fly mostly Gallente so the important one is handled. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
|
Jawas
The Scope Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 12:55:00 -
[181] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mokanor Lenak wrote:
Or the guristas constant ECM lock on some missions or sites (if you are not a FoF missile lover, which isn't perfect either).
ECCM or a sensor backup array. Great... Tell me, how many mid slots do you have on your ship? Armor tankers may benefit from this if they can do without cap boosters but shield tankers definitely need those mids.
|
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
256
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 15:31:00 -
[182] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:Zack Korth wrote: Read the original post, drones aren't getting insta popped, they also aren't stealing the aggro of an entire room unless your running complexes in a rifter. I play the game too, I know better.
"drones aren't getting insta popped" made me laugh hard! Yes, they are! Moreover did anyone try new salvaging drones?! I did! The coolest thing about them is rats attack them too. It's not just a neutral groups! The ones that attack you can fire a few shots at them. How the salvager drones make aggro by salvaging?! Also painters don't help much. Today I did 5 missions for a test. Used Painter, then Drones. Lost 4 drones. Cool stuff. Did something similar in my Rattler : dual painters. The problem is not gaining aggro - thats easy. Just keep drones indoors. The problem is holding aggro. I can find no combo of mods nor a magical attack pattern that will prevent total aggro onto the drones. NPC hate for drones is extreme and fanatical.
What are the solutions? 1) Smartbombs (that now get you flagged). 2) Use non-drone boats stupid! (that S P E L L S drone nerf). 3) Combos of EWAR and attack patterns that take out tacklers first (none of that works reliably or consistently for me - guess I suck at EvE). 5) HTFU : it could be a lot worse noob! (I suppose it could be worse. But a nerf is a nerf, nonetheless.) 6) And my personal favorite: drones work better in low sec cuz gate guns don't shoot at them, so come to low sec !! Drones don't work better in PvE encounters just because they are in low sec. Not for my lo sec ratting fit Gila; ditto for my low sec exploration fit Pilgrim.
My main ships: Navy Domi (RRs + sentry DPS), Rattler (Drones + torpedos DPS), Gila (low sec ratter), Pilgrim (lo sec exploration). Myrm (poor man's command ship + drone DPS). Mach (Incursions). With this list of ships plus the fact that I maxed drone skills, why should be happy about completely redesigning my personal fleet ??
I swear to you people, if NPCs could target and knock out guns and missile like they can drones, the gun/missile folks would be having seizures and would properly identify that as a major PvE nerf. |
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
29
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 20:17:00 -
[183] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Problem with this theory about "removing frigates at close range" is "HOW?"
You're in a drone boat. Unless it's one of the new destroyers, your guns aren't fit to track frigates at point blank. In larger ships, drones were put there specifically for dealing with little frigates that got up their grill & their big guns couldn't track.
Ironically, those frigates are now exactly the ships you can no longer use drones against.
This is EXACTLY the whole problem. When you fly a BS with long-range guns, you absolutely rely on your drones to deal with frigs. Some have said "just snipe the frigs before they get in close". Well DUH!! That works fine on some missions, apparently these idiots have never done a mission where the gate drops you right in the middle of a ball of rats with frigs in it.
I don't fly drone boats. I can't even imagine how messed-up this AI adjustment is for them. As it stands now, I'm gonna have to be careful about which missions I do. Once a frig gets close enough to orbit you, there is absolutely NOTHING you can do to take them out without your drones. |
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
29
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 20:23:00 -
[184] - Quote
Aziesta wrote:Katran Luftschreck wrote:Problem with this theory about "removing frigates at close range" is "HOW?" Rightclick -> launch drones. Rightclick -> attack target. When they take a large amount of damage, Rightclick->return to drone bay. Honestly, if I can do it without drone hp or damage bonuses on my ship, I'll bet you can do it too. It might require some extra clicking and, god forbid, paying attention.
Everyone know this common sense aproach to dealing with frigs. Guess what. It doesn't work anymore. Either you haven't been missioning lately or your drones fly 10x faster than mine, because the frigs kill my drones so fast, they're gone before I even have a chance to recall them.
Just flew "Worlds Collide" and lost all 5 of my light drones because frigs kill them faster than they can get back into the drone bay. Thankfully none of those frigs had me scrammed or I would have been SCREWED! |
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
29
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 20:26:00 -
[185] - Quote
Galphii wrote:You know, there IS a weapon system perfectly suited to killing tacklers, and ships like the rattlesnake and the marauders can fit them pretty easily - smartbombs. Sure, they're potentially lethal to use in highsec, but hey, no guts, no glory! A couple of those babies will fry up enemy tacklers good and fast. Just make sure you don't have a cloaked friend hovering nearby Problem solved.
Problem solved... 'cept for those who fly ships with 8 gun/missile spots. |
Peter Tjordenskiold
36
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 20:36:00 -
[186] - Quote
I recommend to get more accounts to multibox or flying Tengu. BSs are out of date. I feel sorry for the newbies that trained Gallente ships. It's just that CCP is hating Gallente.
TBH demanding 2 account for a lvl 4 mission and make it impossible for newbies (customers!) in BS to fly them is not very clever. To me, the highsec was always the birth place of new players for low and null sec. But giving them nothing to feed, will nothing do than less customers and pilots to shoot at. When CCP is just listening to those Bitter-Vets like the CSM having fun only, when they are offline and in this forum, we will get a desaster in 2 years. |
Pretty GuyYeah
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 21:08:00 -
[187] - Quote
The drone system needs to be revamped so that it can compensate for the changes in Retribution. There is too little use drone users can actually do and know with our drones. |
March rabbit
Aliastra
284
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 21:24:00 -
[188] - Quote
DeBingJos wrote:March rabbit wrote:Caliph Muhammed wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Xearal wrote:OR.. you could you know.. adapt..
As in, buy Tengu and be insta-adapted to any possible niche in the game? Because training for a tengu is just a trivial thing to do. Its not like it requires mastery in each subsystems focus, like ECM, cloaking, propulsion or whatever. Nevermind the time for the weapons systems or the t1 ship requirements. And laugh out loud to the low price they sell for. actually you need (for PVE): - Caldary Strategy Cruiser to 1 - 4-5 subsystems to 4 - T2 heavy missiles (it's like 10 days) Total: 15 days or about And it will be enough for PVE while you training those "needed lvl5s" You forgot cruiser V so make that 15 + 30 = 45 days. (That is still not much.) cruiser V is 15 days. + some basic skills. not even close to 30 |
Zack Korth
The Deneveh Collective High Rollers
39
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 22:26:00 -
[189] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:Zack Korth wrote: Read the original post, drones aren't getting insta popped, they also aren't stealing the aggro of an entire room unless your running complexes in a rifter. I play the game too, I know better.
"drones aren't getting insta popped" made me laugh hard! Yes, they are! Moreover did anyone try new salvaging drones?! I did! The coolest thing about them is rats attack them too. It's not just a neutral groups! The ones that attack you can fire a few shots at them. How the salvager drones make aggro by salvaging?! Also painters don't help much. Today I did 5 missions for a test. Used Painter, then Drones. Lost 4 drones. Cool stuff.
made me laugh hard, no they aren't
uninstall, only other advice i have. cause there is no forum for "butthurt complaints because EVE changed", and i'm tired of them, the truth is you just want it the way it was, cause you didn't have to think about it, you didn't have to make any efforts to secure your drones, you just let em go to work..
"oh gee wiz, 60KM off, drone range. GO GET EM", those day are over. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1868
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 23:51:00 -
[190] - Quote
Zack Korth wrote:uninstall, only other advice i have. cause there is no forum for "butthurt complaints because EVE changed", and i'm tired of them, You're wrong.
We have the General Discussion forum ! Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
|
Kagumichan
Deorbit Burners Session Change In Progress Alliance
23
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 00:10:00 -
[191] - Quote
Tried to counter the frig problem today by putting a light missile launcher in the spare high slot of a mega...
It didn't work.
Having two people in Maelstroms 100k away did though.
Not usefull information I know but seems the only way to comfortably do some level 4 missions now is having 3 battleships and 2 logistics, and if you got those numbers, go do scout incursions instead, or pick up a few more floating around the incursions and do vanguards instead. Agent mission rewards barely compensate for the price of 5 tech 2 light drones |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10637
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 00:13:00 -
[192] - Quote
Pretty GuyYeah wrote:The drone system needs to be revamped so that it can compensate for the changes in Retribution. There is too little use drone users can actually do and know with our drones. GǪaside from adapting. You know, using new strategies to keep your drones safe. Well, I say GÇ£newGÇ¥, but really, the strategies are almost four years old by now. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
550
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 00:32:00 -
[193] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Pretty GuyYeah wrote:The drone system needs to be revamped so that it can compensate for the changes in Retribution. There is too little use drone users can actually do and know with our drones. GǪaside from adapting.
I'm not going to point any fingers, but the "adapt" folks are beginning to annoy me.
You're walking down the street. You end up with a small pebble in your shoe. Do you adapt, or do you take the damn shoe off and shake the stone out? Similarly, if you want an example of second-party involvement, you're sitting on a bus and someone sits next to you with their umbrella handle poking you in the ear. Do you adapt? Or do you tell them to watch their damn umbrella?
Same principle. Just because a change happened, and it can be adapted to, it does not: 1. Make it a good change. 2. Worth adapting to.
And as a sidenote, the "adapt" folks are surprisingly rigid when it comes to these things. A lot of people I see saying "adapt" were the same guys who, when changes to the game were not to their own liking (WiS instead of FiS), instead of adapting whined to high heavens and shot statues in Jita. That's the ultimate irony of this game - "adapt" and HTFU cuts both ways. Too much carebearing in EVE? Adapt, HTFU or GTFO. Too little carebearing in EVE? Adapt, HTFU or GTFO. Whatever the question, it can be answered with "adapt, htfu or gtfo". We all know it. So why bother saying it? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10638
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 00:53:00 -
[194] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:I'm not going to point any fingers, but the "adapt" folks are beginning to annoy me. Have you tried it?
Quote:Same principle. Just because a change happened, and it can be adapted to, it does not: 1. Make it a good change. 2. Make it worth adapting to. Indeed. What makes it a good change is that it shakes up stale and hideously outdated content that offered about as much gameplay as watching paint dry and made it a bit more interactive. Actually, drying paint is a bit more dynamic than the old missions so that comparison was a bit unfair on the paint.
Added dynamism is itself worth adapting to, and the cheap cost of adaptation (little to no research needed, for instance, since it was all figured out six expansions ago) makes it even more so. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe Against ALL Authorities
582
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 01:02:00 -
[195] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Pretty GuyYeah wrote:The drone system needs to be revamped so that it can compensate for the changes in Retribution. There is too little use drone users can actually do and know with our drones. GǪaside from adapting. You know, using new strategies to keep your drones safe. Well, I say GǣnewGǥ, but really, the strategies are almost four years old by now.
When someone shows you the new square wheels they made you tell them they are idiots and to rethink it. You don't mindlessly cheer them and put them on you car. Sleeper AI works well for Sleeper sites as the sites were designed with the Sleeper AI in mind. Old mission were not designed for new NPC AI and many are deathtraps now. FIRE FRIENDSHIP TORPEDOES ! Louis's epic skill guide v1.1 |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
37
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 01:05:00 -
[196] - Quote
Zack Korth wrote:Funky Lazers wrote:Zack Korth wrote: Read the original post, drones aren't getting insta popped, they also aren't stealing the aggro of an entire room unless your running complexes in a rifter. I play the game too, I know better.
"drones aren't getting insta popped" made me laugh hard! Yes, they are! Moreover did anyone try new salvaging drones?! I did! The coolest thing about them is rats attack them too. It's not just a neutral groups! The ones that attack you can fire a few shots at them. How the salvager drones make aggro by salvaging?! Also painters don't help much. Today I did 5 missions for a test. Used Painter, then Drones. Lost 4 drones. Cool stuff. made me laugh hard, no they aren't uninstall, only other advice i have. cause there is no forum for "butthurt complaints because EVE changed", and i'm tired of them, the truth is you just want it the way it was, cause you didn't have to think about it, you didn't have to make any efforts to secure your drones, you just let em go to work.. "oh gee wiz, 60KM off, drone range. GO GET EM", those day are over.
If you did not think about them, that's your own problem. Don't judge people by yourself.
What happends right now is more like you did - no need to use the brain because rats randomly 1-shot drones, so you can do zero about it. Angel Elite frigs kill your T2 light drones with 1 missile. And I'm not talking about Cruisers, BC and BS.
If that never happend to you it only means thatyou: 1. Never did a mission once; 2. Just another troll; 3. Nullbear, which covers the 1 and 2.
So here you go, your favorite braindead gameplay. "Adapt" - means you have to stop using the ship you like and start flying Drake or Tengu like the rest nullbear newbs. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
551
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 01:16:00 -
[197] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Indeed. What makes it a good change is that it shakes up stale and hideously outdated content that offered about as much gameplay as watching paint dry and made it a bit more interactive. Actually, drying paint is a bit more dynamic than the old missions so that comparison was a bit unfair on the paint.
See, just because something gets shaken up, it doesn't mean it is a good change.
I mean, think about it. After they fix the current full-room-aggro thing. What is really going to change? I mean, REALLY? Nothing. Missions will be just as tedious. All it did was force people into constantly fighting the drone UI, which is just annoying. It's not challenging or interesting or hard, just annoying. And that's pretty much the only thing this change did, took annoyance and turned it into annoyance+10 due to added drone management. Good change? Hardly. And most people will just re-train for a Tengu, like everyone and their grandma already did, and not even bother with drones. Maybe switch to FoF missiles to run semi-AFK? Everything will keep on spinning. As such, was the time spent implementing it well-spent? I don't see how.
Now, this is not to say that I think missions are fine. They're not. They were outdated when they were introduced. They're ludicrously outdated now, absurdly so. But this wasn't the way to change them. If they wanted positive change, they should have changed missions alongside the AI.
Simplest example I can think of is a mission where you are tasked with protecting a structure. Ships spawn 1-3 at a time, depending on size, and attack the structure. Shooting them pulls aggro towards yourself. Doing this mission AFK is impossible, even with aggressive drones, as new spawns do not aggress drones, they aggress the structure. Structure dies, mission fails. Easy to do, but requires a player's participation at every step. And ship AI can be as hard as it needs to be - neuting, EWAR, what have you. But since ships come at you 1-3 at a time, they are manageable, and it will teach players to deal with these various mechanics.
And speaking of "hideously outdated content", that's what drones are. Drone mechanics, drone UI, etc. What little content there is. There's still content that's missing from drones - such as damage rigs for drones aside from sentries, drone implants, etc. They showed a nice mock-up of a new drone UI at FanFest, but since then pretty much stayed mute and ran away from any thread even mentioning the word "drones". |
Tykari
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
57
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 01:27:00 -
[198] - Quote
To all the people who say people just need to adapt clearly haven't been playing enough missions yet. Some missions are just as easy as ever, with little or no change yes. Other missions however, have become a tremendous pain to do. Among these are missions with NPC's who have lots of EWAR (not just the ECM kind) and don't hesitate to use it. They were annoying before but now with the getting full room aggro problem they are a nightmare.
Serpentis damping you down to below 10 km lock range while in a drone boat means you can never hope to hold enough aggro to not have them blast your drones out of the sky, be it sentries or others. And before long they'll be swarming all over your ship at which point any drone outside will get blasted faster than you can recall it, and if among those npc's there are scrambling frigates you might even end up dead if you don't get out fast enough. Smartbombs don't tend to be useful as a lot of frigate NPC's stay well out of that range unless you happen to have a fancy expensive officer one fitted.
The tactics that are valid against the Sleepers are valid in missions yes, and they will also work. Some missions however are either bugged or terribly unbalanced now making them impossible to do with certain types of ships. The recalling and launching a second flight of drones bug is handy for now yes, but as mentioned they'll be closing that loop hole.
The fact that the entire drone ui and drone system is outdated and sluggish and terrible to manage only adds to the problem. Recalling drones quickly when they get shot is all fine and good, but if the interface lags and the (recall) command has a few seconds delay (and yes this does happen far too often) it can mean life or death for a drone. And if you're not using sentries the travel times mean you lose dps each time you recall and send them out again.
While the new AI is a welcome change and in a lot of cases doesn't cause such big problems and let's be honest won't change much to what missions were before, there are cases where they do and coupled with other broken mechanics these are cases that should be addressed. In this dark void we are like brilliant stars, holding within us both the creative and destructive power to bring a new dawn upon worlds or plunge them into eternal darkness. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10639
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 01:37:00 -
[199] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:I mean, think about it. After they fix the current full-room-aggro thing. What is really going to change? I mean, REALLY? You will still need to have different aggro management techniques (including getting rid of aggro for a while, which will help you with some of the other changes). If you mass-run them in teams, you will need to adjust who does what when. Oh, and then there's the whole mission-intrusion bitGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
Clystan
Binaerie Heavy Industries
100
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 01:44:00 -
[200] - Quote
I am not a fan of paper drones. |
|
Mokanor Lenak
Republic University Minmatar Republic
34
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 05:27:00 -
[201] - Quote
Aziesta wrote:Katran Luftschreck wrote:Problem with this theory about "removing frigates at close range" is "HOW?" Rightclick -> launch drones. Rightclick -> attack target. When they take a large amount of damage, Rightclick->return to drone bay. Rightclick->warp to station to get new 5 drones as all of them died in 2 seconds.
Just added the last bit to fixed it for you right there.
NPC damage on drones is currently too high. Unless you keep the frigates to last, sometimes when launching drones without spending enough time generating aggro on the NPC, the drones will be picked up instantly and die almost instantly.
I ended up with 5 frigates shooting my BS today in one pocket. I had to send and recall my drones 4 times until the NPC stopped targeting them instantly. Than I waited about a minute of webbing the frigates until I considered the aggro enough to send them out again.
I can't image how a new player will react if he send his drones on frigates, they pop in 2-3 seconds, and than he is there, in his relatively new T1 BS, scrammed and webbed by NPC frigates, without any counter measure at all. Can't log off because of NPC timer, can't warp out, can't out run the frigates. Most likely, he will end up quitting from "WTF is going on??". I'm not sure its what CCP intended (or I might be wrong and secretly they are into making PvE players quit and keep only the PvP players, go figure). |
POKER ALICE
Moonshine Monks Gentlemans Club
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 08:01:00 -
[202] - Quote
Just give up on drones. CCP hates them. I started with a Gallente toon years ago and learned of CCPs hatred of drones with each new patch. Just train anything but drones. I finally gave in to the Borg and started a Caldari toon and couldnt be happier. As for my Gallente pilot....well...he can still mine. |
Sildan Smith
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 09:35:00 -
[203] - Quote
The silence from the Devs regarding the changes to Drone aggro is absolutely deafening.
Not one of the many threads about how much damage the AI change has done to drone users has been commented on at all.
|
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
448
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 09:51:00 -
[204] - Quote
Sildan Smith wrote:The silence from the Devs regarding the changes to Drone aggro is absolutely deafening.
Not one of the many threads about how much damage the AI change has done to drone users has been commented on at all.
Quite true. And this is only phase one of the plan. Phase 2 is the removal of the current loophole where the AI only attacks the 1st wave of your drones.
So how do you interpret that silence from the devs? In your interpretation, consider also that CCP has not provided hard data on PvE income for quite some time, so there is no baseline to measure any drop in PvE income with. |
C0ATL
DayZero Multiplanetary United
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 10:13:00 -
[205] - Quote
It is not about adapting. I have seen many here say "ADAPT!". or that "Oh this has shown how many missioners CANNOT adapt."
No. It is easy to adapt. It is easy to get a missile boat like a CNR to replace a Rattlesnake or a Dominix.... or say "Guys I need help with a mission." in corp chat. It is not that people >cannot< adapt, but rather that they are unwilling to. On a game that emphases and promotes freedom of choice, versatility and "play your own way" kind of game-play... being FORCED to swap ships or start doing things the way CCP asks you to is just deplorable.
I have done all of the above and still am able to do missions just fine. Got a CNR the 2nd day after the expansion, when I noticed how CCP took a massive dump on all drone boats, and have been making ISK with missile ships.... My problem is not enjoying the game-play as I used to and being forced to dance on CCP's tune.
CCP took an AI that was created for Sleepers (which are 90% of the time done with fleets of people) and crammed it into missions that players have been accustomed to solo... all of this while stating in patch notes that "this has the role of >slightly< increasing mission difficulty". Wether if was for lack of time or just not giving a damn, CCP did not work at all at this and the result is a lot of people getting pissed off and quitting. I myself regret having extended my subscription just 2 days before the expansion, and will not give CCP any more cash after my 2 accounts expire. Also seen a lot of people following the same route. My corp alone lost billions in ship-worth since the expansion was released and we are just a handful of people.
The punishment drones receive in missions (at least 4s, since those are the ones I have done since Retribution was released, and I will not speak for other missions) is disgusting. A lot of people that do not use drone-boats are here spewing out non-sense about adapting. To them I say this: Take a lvl 4 mission, and while destroying ships, start overloading 1 turret/launcher at a time, until its blown up...then start with the next...and then the next..and the next. Eventually you will understand how a drone-boat user feels. It was enough that drones could be destroyed pre-Retribution by NPCs if you were not careful... but given that I do not see mission NPCs targeting and destroying people's launchers and turrets, I see no real reason why CCP made it so that drones will be targeted and destroyed with impunity within seconds of being released from the drone bay. (not including the exploit that one HAS to use to get any efficiency out of a drone-boat). It is simple: a drone-boat without drones is like a missile boat without launchers.... so why this hate for drones? Oh..because CCP wanted to bring some more content for the masses to be pleased at a long patch-notes list, by implementing an AI that was designed for an entirely difference scenario.
Comparing a Rattle with a CNR:
Rattlesnake: Launcher DPS = 155; Drone DPS = 500-600ish (depending on drones) CNR: Launcher DPS = 526 ; Drone DPS = 145 And all this with having 5.5M SP in drone skills, while having less than 3.5M SP in missile skills.
Even non-drone boats have to suffer from this, given that a CNR's torps or cruise missiles are a waste of ammo and time when hitting high-end NPC frigs that keep you scrambled and webbed, and given that medium drones already took a considerable amount of time to kill one of those 30k bounty frigs... with them being targeted and blown up it will be even harder. And really... one moment of your attention being missplaced and you lose a drone. Without using the exploit people have been pointing out and debating, you basicly spend more time taking them out and putting them in your drone bay, than you do with them in combat.
Keep the E-war buff on mission NPCs...keep them able of switching between player ships...but take out drones from their lists of targets to switch-to and it will be fine. Missions will still be harder, but without confining people's choices and preferences when playing the game.
Maybe CCP will listen... but most likely wont, so the only way I can affect them (even in a small way) is to stop paying for their product when they rui |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2189
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 11:24:00 -
[206] - Quote
Zack Korth wrote: "oh gee wiz, 60KM off, drone range. GO GET EM", those day are over.
Yeah why even put the skill to send drones 60km away in game? Because once again we have DA MASTAH preaching how the game MUST be played!
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2189
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 11:27:00 -
[207] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Pretty GuyYeah wrote:The drone system needs to be revamped so that it can compensate for the changes in Retribution. There is too little use drone users can actually do and know with our drones. GǪaside from adapting. You know, using new strategies to keep your drones safe. Well, I say GǣnewGǥ, but really, the strategies are almost four years old by now.
Let's put one of the "adapted guys" at point blank inside a 2500 DPS room with webbing towers (and neuting, why not?), with a cloud of elite frigates buzzing around.
Then watch the fireworks. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Hevymetal
POT Corp Semper Ardens Alliance
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 13:09:00 -
[208] - Quote
I have updated my initial post after additional playtesting.
|
Xenos van Omega
The nasty Nomads
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 13:34:00 -
[209] - Quote
we was in a angel mission and saw something new here never mentioned. The first who warped in got full agro. Then the rats logged immedeatelly the 2nd who warped in. but what surprice!! they did not unlog the first! never i saw rats logging 2 players at the same time.
same we saw later. rats switched target agressed drone but did not unlog the ship. so it was not possible to know what rats are behind the drones and what rats behind the ship. they loged 2 at same time. |
baltec1
Bat Country
3163
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 13:36:00 -
[210] - Quote
Jawas wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mokanor Lenak wrote:
Or the guristas constant ECM lock on some missions or sites (if you are not a FoF missile lover, which isn't perfect either).
ECCM or a sensor backup array. Great... Tell me, how many mid slots do you have on your ship? Armor tankers may benefit from this if they can do without cap boosters but shield tankers definitely need those mids.
Sensor backup arrays use a low slot. |
|
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
555
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 14:00:00 -
[211] - Quote
Sildan Smith wrote:The silence from the Devs regarding the changes to Drone aggro is absolutely deafening.
Not one of the many threads about how much damage the AI change has done to drone users has been commented on at all.
Yep, I'm totally loving how in the past week Dev tags and threads with a word "Drones" resolutely refuse to mix. And it's not like they are not on the forums, they're joking and horsing around in other threads. But anything with AI or drone to it? /ignore But hey, I'll give credit where credit is due - drone issue has been an elephant in the room for years, and CCP has done a fantastic job of completely ignoring it. |
Pretty GuyYeah
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 15:38:00 -
[212] - Quote
Drones either need a revamp or a buff to compensate for the changes in Retribution. |
Silath Slyver Silverpine
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 16:35:00 -
[213] - Quote
POKER ALICE wrote:. . . I started with a Gallente toon years ago and learned of CCPs hatred of drones with each new patch. Just train anything but drones. I finally gave in to the Borg and started a Caldari toon and couldnt be happier. As for my Gallente pilot....well...he can still mine.
Funny, I did the same thing. Trained up to use a Domi fairly well and it was just, "Why am I bothering with this when I can put myself in a Raven that works so much better?" And that was long before Retribution. It's funny how between these last two expansions we've gotten, what, 9 new ships? Plus countless ship rebalancings. And not a single mention of drone improvements.
So, I trained up to use a CNR. Works much better. Of course, now I don't dare run any mission with warp scramming in it, because then I will die in under two minutes. But, to hell with me, since I like doing things solo. At least I can still make ridiculous ISK mining.
|
POKER ALICE
Moonshine Monks Gentlemans Club
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 17:16:00 -
[214] - Quote
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:POKER ALICE wrote:. . . I started with a Gallente toon years ago and learned of CCPs hatred of drones with each new patch. Just train anything but drones. I finally gave in to the Borg and started a Caldari toon and couldnt be happier. As for my Gallente pilot....well...he can still mine. Funny, I did the same thing. Trained up to use a Domi fairly well and it was just, "Why am I bothering with this when I can put myself in a Raven that works so much better?" And that was long before Retribution. It's funny how between these last two expansions we've gotten, what, 9 new ships? Plus countless ship rebalancings. And not a single mention of drone improvements. So, I trained up to use a CNR. Works much better. Of course, now I don't dare run any mission with warp scramming in it, because then I will die in under two minutes. But, to hell with me, since I like doing things solo. At least I can still make ridiculous ISK mining.
You know, if they were going to trash drones, why even bother introducing new drone ships? Who the heck would even bother to train anything beyond light scout drones on purpose now? Everyone just nod your heads and move along in the same direction please. CCP obviously wants us all to fly a tengu lol. It would be funny if just were not so true. |
Frater Scrapheap
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 18:31:00 -
[215] - Quote
A game and game mechanics should provide at least a little bit fun. I have 9 million Skillpoints in Drones and now i have to deal not only with a crappy drone interface, but with crappy game mechanics as well. I am not amused. And the reason why? Because some dudes did afk missions? *deep sigh* |
baltec1
Bat Country
3168
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 18:37:00 -
[216] - Quote
Frater Scrapheap wrote:A game and game mechanics should provide at least a little bit fun. I have 9 million Skillpoints in Drones and now i have to deal not only with a crappy drone interface, but with crappy game mechanics as well. I am not amused. And the reason why? Because some dudes did afk missions? *deep sigh* I have less drone skills than you and I am doing just fine. Methinks the issue lies between the chair and keyboard. |
Silath Slyver Silverpine
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 18:44:00 -
[217] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frater Scrapheap wrote:A game and game mechanics should provide at least a little bit fun. I have 9 million Skillpoints in Drones and now i have to deal not only with a crappy drone interface, but with crappy game mechanics as well. I am not amused. And the reason why? Because some dudes did afk missions? *deep sigh* I have less drone skills than you and I am doing just fine. Methinks the issue lies between the chair and keyboard.
I'm wondering WTF all these people who are "Doing just fine." are doing, exactly.
When an entire room, including 10-20 frigates, insta-locks and targets your drones as soon as you deploy them, that drone dies. End of story. So, if you're doing things where you're only facing 5 or 6 ships, of course you're going to be fine. That doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist, and no matter how many time you say "I'm doing fine." it doesn't change the fact of the situation.
With that said, as soon as this 'entire room agros at once' thing is fixed, the drone issue will be much more manageable and people will stop complaining about it. When that issue will be fixed remains to be seen, it's been 5 days with nary a word except "We recognize the bug and are aware of it. Will fix it sometime in the future."
Meanwhile anyone who actually enjoyed doing missions solo is SOL. |
Frater Scrapheap
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 18:44:00 -
[218] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Frater Scrapheap wrote:A game and game mechanics should provide at least a little bit fun. I have 9 million Skillpoints in Drones and now i have to deal not only with a crappy drone interface, but with crappy game mechanics as well. I am not amused. And the reason why? Because some dudes did afk missions? *deep sigh* I have less drone skills than you and I am doing just fine. Methinks the issue lies between the chair and keyboard.
I am talking about crappy game mechanics and the interface.... not about "being able to do missions and combat sites". I have enough experience under my belt with drones to adapt, oh Sherlock. But it doesnt change the fact, that the new mechanics are not fun, just more tedious. |
Deja Blue
Vimana VII
9
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 19:36:00 -
[219] - Quote
It would appear to me that the developers are the enemy, more and more.
We all remember from Monocle-gate how they really feel about the players-base. It is as if the developers do everything possible to keep new players from even being able to play the game.
Lot to think about.
Darkfall: Unholy Wars is next week. I think I will try that.
|
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
563
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 20:29:00 -
[220] - Quote
Deja Blue wrote: Darkfall: Unholy Wars is next week. I think I will try that.
Save your time and money. Darkfall was a lousy game years ago when it launched, it's still a lousy game now. And the developers didn't learn a thing in all these years. They were a joke back when original DFO released, pushing release back 3 (or was it 4?) times, and now they're doing the same thing with Darkfall 2.0. Just ignore them and that game. It held a lot of promise, but frankly it's a bit of a joke, as was Mortal Online (which is F2P and essentially dead now). |
|
Lord Tempist
UnLimited Liability Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 20:30:00 -
[221] - Quote
Sildan Smith wrote:The silence from the Devs regarding the changes to Drone aggro is absolutely deafening.
Not one of the many threads about how much damage the AI change has done to drone users has been commented on at all.
Who do you think is shouting down all the complainers? Lollerskates ALTS FTW
|
Mund Richard
21
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 20:33:00 -
[222] - Quote
Frater Scrapheap wrote:now i have to deal not only with a crappy drone interface, but with crappy game mechanics as well. I am not amused. And the reason why? Because some dudes did afk missions? *deep sigh* Oh come on! Do you really believe that is the reason?
CCP FoxFire noted himself how the Spider Domi Fleets are safer AFK than ever before.
And that weeks before the expansion came out! Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2205
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 20:40:00 -
[223] - Quote
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote: I'm wondering WTF all these people who are "Doing just fine." are doing, exactly.
Check their posting histories.
It's always the same people, from major 0.0 alliances, puffing their elite chests, constantly demanding nerfs on hi sec, suicide ganking miners and freighters, telling *the others* to STFU and adapt (yet they will never STFU and adapt to their lands).
Not a bit of empathy or comprehension expecially for those not following their forcibly canned, strong armed ways.
Basically you probably have an experience of meeting such kind of arrogant and overbearing people a bit everywhere. And you despise them. In EvE they are a consistent number.
They could politely point you at a resource telling you how to deal with the new challenge but no, they prefer to point and laugh at you. They want to make you feel bad. They enjoy it, it makes them feel good.
Don't feel bad, because you are a nice and coy person, they are the humanity's bad examples. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1873
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 20:59:00 -
[224] - Quote
Deja Blue wrote:It would appear to me that the developers are the enemy, more and more.
We all remember from Monocle-gate how they really feel about the players-base. It is as if the developers do everything possible to keep new players from even being able to play the game.
Lot to think about.
Darkfall: Unholy Wars is next week. I think I will try that. Did you unlock the hidden final boss?! Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Hevymetal
POT Corp Semper Ardens Alliance
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 21:01:00 -
[225] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Sildan Smith wrote:The silence from the Devs regarding the changes to Drone aggro is absolutely deafening.
Not one of the many threads about how much damage the AI change has done to drone users has been commented on at all.
Yep, I'm totally loving how in the past week Dev tags and threads with a word "Drones" resolutely refuse to mix. And it's not like they are not on the forums, they're joking and horsing around in other threads. But anything with AI or drone to it? /ignore But hey, I'll give credit where credit is due - drone issue has been an elephant in the room for years, and CCP has done a fantastic job of completely ignoring it.
And therein lies another problem in and of itself. Lack of communication. 10 Threads on the first page alone that Devs have commented in. Ranging from killrights, bounties, WIS, hell even the number of people logged into the server. Yet not a word about this issue. On behalf of the community, SAY SOMETHING PLEASE :) I humbly believe this issue warrants some response as it effects a vast section of the playerbase.
|
Pretty GuyYeah
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 21:04:00 -
[226] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote: I'm wondering WTF all these people who are "Doing just fine." are doing, exactly.
Check their posting histories. It's always the same people, from major 0.0 alliances, puffing their elite chests, constantly demanding nerfs on hi sec, suicide ganking miners and freighters, telling *the others* to STFU and adapt (yet they will never STFU and adapt to their lands). Not a bit of empathy or comprehension expecially for those not following their forcibly canned, strong armed ways. Basically you probably have an experience of meeting such kind of arrogant and overbearing people a bit everywhere. And you despise them. In EvE they are a consistent number. They could politely point you at a resource telling you how to deal with the new challenge but no, they prefer to point and laugh at you. They want to make you feel bad. They enjoy it, it makes them feel good. Don't feel bad, because you are a nice and coy person, they are the humanity's bad examples.
+1
+ they have enough SP to not care about the changes, some of us dont' |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1873
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 21:07:00 -
[227] - Quote
Hevymetal wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Sildan Smith wrote:The silence from the Devs regarding the changes to Drone aggro is absolutely deafening.
Not one of the many threads about how much damage the AI change has done to drone users has been commented on at all. Yep, I'm totally loving how in the past week Dev tags and threads with a word "Drones" resolutely refuse to mix. And it's not like they are not on the forums, they're joking and horsing around in other threads. But anything with AI or drone to it? /ignore But hey, I'll give credit where credit is due - drone issue has been an elephant in the room for years, and CCP has done a fantastic job of completely ignoring it. And therein lies another problem in and of itself. Lack of communication. 10 Threads on the first page alone that Devs have commented in. Ranging from killrights, bounties, WIS, hell even the number of people logged into the server. Yet not a word about this issue. On behalf of the community, SAY SOMETHING PLEASE :) I humbly believe this issue warrants some response as it effects a vast section of the playerbase. That is a response already, they clearly think it's just fine. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Admiral Rufus
New Eden Renegades Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
24
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 21:24:00 -
[228] - Quote
Don't mind smarter ai, but if i were in a 20man fleet and a solo ship warped into us and dropped drones, even if it were a drone boat, no one would ever target a single drone! Missioning is repetative enough without adding in another repetative task of recalling and redeploying drones every 2 minutes!
I don't mission a lot, but when i do i want it to be irritation free, now it isn't. At least outside of nullsec, stop npc's in missions L1-5 targetting drones please, its annoying |
Red Maiden
Aliastra Gallente Federation
28
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 21:25:00 -
[229] - Quote
I'm loving the changes!
Makes doing some L4s much more interesting. I even lost a few drones during a mission for the first time in a long time, and it wasn't because I warped out and forgot about them. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2207
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 22:38:00 -
[230] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Deja Blue wrote:It would appear to me that the developers are the enemy, more and more.
We all remember from Monocle-gate how they really feel about the players-base. It is as if the developers do everything possible to keep new players from even being able to play the game.
Lot to think about.
Darkfall: Unholy Wars is next week. I think I will try that. Did you unlock the hidden final boss?!
Considering EvE is a risk free, carebear game compared to Darkfall, did you unlock the hidden, final moon? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1876
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 23:08:00 -
[231] - Quote
Admiral Rufus wrote:I don't mission a lot, but when i do i want it to be irritation free, now it isn't. Op success. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
baltec1
Bat Country
3175
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 23:14:00 -
[232] - Quote
Pretty GuyYeah wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote: I'm wondering WTF all these people who are "Doing just fine." are doing, exactly.
Check their posting histories. It's always the same people, from major 0.0 alliances, puffing their elite chests, constantly demanding nerfs on hi sec, suicide ganking miners and freighters, telling *the others* to STFU and adapt (yet they will never STFU and adapt to their lands). Not a bit of empathy or comprehension expecially for those not following their forcibly canned, strong armed ways. Basically you probably have an experience of meeting such kind of arrogant and overbearing people a bit everywhere. And you despise them. In EvE they are a consistent number. They could politely point you at a resource telling you how to deal with the new challenge but no, they prefer to point and laugh at you. They want to make you feel bad. They enjoy it, it makes them feel good. Don't feel bad, because you are a nice and coy person, they are the humanity's bad examples. +1 + they have enough SP to not care about the changes, some of us dont' Its funny because I literally just said I have less SP in drones.
|
baltec1
Bat Country
3175
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 23:20:00 -
[233] - Quote
Admiral Rufus wrote: I don't mission a lot, but when i do i want it to be irritation free, now it isn't.
And this right here is what people are whining about. CCP have turned off easy mode slightly and they are not at all happy about it! |
Drakthon
The Abdication Corporation WHY so Seri0Us
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 23:33:00 -
[234] - Quote
I use a Rattlesnake in null, and my drones were blasted. Sure, I recalled them, but we all know how fast heavies move. I used to be able to do Forlorn Hubs for iskies between ops, now I'm going to have to find a different hull. Shame. It was a beautiful ship.
I'll probably get the Tengu that has been mentioned so many times.
My problem is not with the changes. Mix things up, that's fine. But it is the idea of Eve, that paradigm that you can only trust yourself, that causes pilots to want to solo lvl 4 missions. Corp mates are an option, but it is after all highsec. You want fleet ops, CCP, move lvl 4's to lowsec. That'll show em.
Drones in npc combat should be left alone. Who the hell cares if you can solo lvl 4's by deploying drones and waiting around? It's highsec. Everyone and their dog knows that null is where it's at, and low sec if you're feeling ballsy.
This expansion pack was supposed to be CCP's redemption (hence "retribution") from their idiotic ways (read: walking in stations) of the past. I find this bulldozer approach to "fixing" something that isn't broken is akin to their absolutely brilliant release (and subsequent handling) of the Nobel exchange and the fiasco that ensued.
Oh well. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2209
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 23:34:00 -
[235] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Admiral Rufus wrote: I don't mission a lot, but when i do i want it to be irritation free, now it isn't.
And this right here is what people are whining about. CCP have turned off easy mode slightly and they are not at all happy about it!
Next patch, complete nerf to titan bridges! Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2210
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 23:36:00 -
[236] - Quote
Drakthon wrote:I use a Rattlesnake in null, and my drones were blasted. Sure, I recalled them, but we all know how fast heavies move. I used to be able to do Forlorn Hubs for iskies between ops, now I'm going to have to find a different hull. Shame. It was a beautiful ship.
I'll probably get the Tengu that has been mentioned so many times.
My problem is not with the changes. Mix things up, that's fine. But it is the idea of Eve, that paradigm that you can only trust yourself, that causes pilots to want to solo lvl 4 missions. Corp mates are an option, but it is after all highsec. You want fleet ops, CCP, move lvl 4's to lowsec. That'll show em.
Drones in npc combat should be left alone. Who the hell cares if you can solo lvl 4's by deploying drones and waiting around? It's highsec. Everyone and their dog knows that null is where it's at, and low sec if you're feeling ballsy.
This expansion pack was supposed to be CCP's redemption (hence "retribution") from their idiotic ways (read: walking in stations) of the past. I find this bulldozer approach to "fixing" something that isn't broken is akin to their absolutely brilliant release (and subsequent handling) of the Nobel exchange and the fiasco that ensued.
Oh well.
Mate, here's the plan:
1) Make your nullsec ability to make ISK gimped. 2) Thus force you back to hi sec to grind ISK. 3) Now the usual gang can stink the forums about the fact you find hi sec better at grinding ISK than nullsec! Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
baltec1
Bat Country
3175
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 23:43:00 -
[237] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:baltec1 wrote:Admiral Rufus wrote: I don't mission a lot, but when i do i want it to be irritation free, now it isn't.
And this right here is what people are whining about. CCP have turned off easy mode slightly and they are not at all happy about it! Next patch, complete nerf to titan bridges! Means nothing to me. |
HydroSan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 00:00:00 -
[238] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Sildan Smith wrote:The silence from the Devs regarding the changes to Drone aggro is absolutely deafening.
Not one of the many threads about how much damage the AI change has done to drone users has been commented on at all.
Quite true. And this is only phase one of the plan. Phase 2 is the removal of the current loophole where the AI only attacks the 1st wave of your drones. So how do you interpret that silence from the devs? In your interpretation, consider also that CCP has not provided hard data on PvE income for quite some time, so there is no baseline to measure any drop in PvE income with.
I haven't noticed this loophole at all.
Drones are dying everywhere. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
92
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 00:10:00 -
[239] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: And this right here is what people are whining about. CCP have turned off easy mode slightly and they are not at all happy about it!
Try...no, better still, record an attempt at "The Assault" vs Serpentis and post it. Preferably in something pricey and shiny so I can laugh at you.
"turned off easy mode slightly"...is that what you call some 30-40 ships aggroing at warp in while combined with roughly 8-10 of those spamming dampers synchronously?
That's not "turned off easy mode slightly", that is "batshit insane".
Edit: For bonus points, show me your 'adapt or die' fit which swaps tank/dps for sebos/equivalent....then allow me to laugh harder as the rats melt your (now hilarious) 'adapted' tank in a heartbeat. |
Mund Richard
23
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 00:41:00 -
[240] - Quote
Drakthon wrote:I use a Rattlesnake in null, and my drones were blasted. Sure, I recalled them, but we all know how fast heavies move. I used to be able to do Forlorn Hubs for iskies between ops, now I'm going to have to find a different hull. Shame. It was a beautiful ship. Rattlesnake with heavy drones (jumping to conclusions here, but on battleships?). Lost me there.
Morrigan LeSante wrote:baltec1 wrote:And this right here is what people are whining about. CCP have turned off easy mode slightly and they are not at all happy about it! Try...no, better still, record an attempt at "The Assault" vs Serpentis and post it. Preferably in something pricey and shiny so I can laugh at you. "turned off easy mode slightly"...is that what you call some 30-40 ships aggroing at warp in while combined with roughly 8-10 of those spamming dampers synchronously? That's not "turned off easy mode slightly", that is "batshit insane". Edit: For bonus points, show me your 'adapt or die' fit which swaps tank/dps for sebos/equivalent....then allow me to laugh harder as the rats melt your (now hilarious) 'adapted' tank in a heartbeat. *popcorn* If you do it after the full room aggro has been fixed, first take full aggro manually, move back to the starting poing, de-target everything and recall drones. Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1876
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 00:47:00 -
[241] - Quote
HydroSan wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Quite true. And this is only phase one of the plan. Phase 2 is the removal of the current loophole where the AI only attacks the 1st wave of your drones.
So how do you interpret that silence from the devs? In your interpretation, consider also that CCP has not provided hard data on PvE income for quite some time, so there is no baseline to measure any drop in PvE income with. I haven't noticed this loophole at all. Drones are dying everywhere. People are bad at EVE, I'm amazed. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Lord Tempist
UnLimited Liability Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 04:19:00 -
[242] - Quote
So, in the meantime, while we are waiting for them to debug the full room aggro and other "adaptability" hurdles of the missions etc, my new hobby is forum trolling. I pay to be here too. When I am otherwise gainfully occupied you almost never see me here on the forums. So if you see me here, there must be something wrong, right? Looking forward to the debugging. Change is the only constant. -áI will even adapt to blatant absurdity. -áYou know who you are. |
C0ATL
DayZero Multiplanetary United
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 06:50:00 -
[243] - Quote
Here is an idea... How about - if you pretend that you did this for the reason of making missions interesting and not a boring grind-fest - instead of ripping off a completely inappropriate AI from Sleepers, you randomize mission spawns.
That's right... Make each mission spawn random NPCs in a certain combination of ships, all totalling to an average value, equal to what it was before. Or at the very worst, make 5 variants for each mission, where the spawns are fixed, and the random part is related to what variant you get when you accept it from agent. Such an improvement would keep things interesting, as well as committing people to adapt to the new variants of the mission (given that 'adapting' seems to be the theme here), as well as improving the overall mission difficulty, given that players will not know the spawn composition and will need to think on their feet on how to approach the situation.
Oh but wait... that would require actually working on the matter and doing something that isn't as easy as taking an already existing AI and stuffing it into mission NPCs without thinking of what that would bring to your player-base.
Good job. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1880
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 07:09:00 -
[244] - Quote
C0ATL wrote:Here is an idea... How about - if you pretend that you did this for the reason of making missions interesting and not a boring grind-fest - instead of ripping off a completely inappropriate AI from Sleepers, you randomize mission spawns.
[fairly reasonable suggestion]
Oh but wait... that would require actually working on the matter and doing something that isn't as easy as taking an already existing AI and stuffing it into mission NPCs without thinking of what that would bring to your player-base. What a burn. I'm sure someone will throw you the usual F&I forums line. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Zimmy Zeta
Paramount Commerce
3435
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 07:19:00 -
[245] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:C0ATL wrote:Here is an idea... How about - if you pretend that you did this for the reason of making missions interesting and not a boring grind-fest - instead of ripping off a completely inappropriate AI from Sleepers, you randomize mission spawns.
[fairly reasonable suggestion]
Oh but wait... that would require actually working on the matter and doing something that isn't as easy as taking an already existing AI and stuffing it into mission NPCs without thinking of what that would bring to your player-base. What a burn. I'm sure someone will throw you the usual F&I forums line.
I was considering it.
But now I am no longer in the mood and decided just to ignore his rant....
For best results and enhanced forum experience, please read my posts in Snooki's voice |
ashley Eoner
68
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 07:39:00 -
[246] - Quote
ANyone else noticing the AI not switching targets hard when someone new warps in on you? I"m not sure but to me it seems like the AI has been tweaked some. My dps toon no longer gets complete room aggro when entering behind my first ship (which usually does get full room aggro lol). |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
317
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 08:39:00 -
[247] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:baltec1 wrote: And this right here is what people are whining about. CCP have turned off easy mode slightly and they are not at all happy about it!
Try...no, better still, record an attempt at "The Assault" vs Serpentis and post it. Preferably in something pricey and shiny so I can laugh at you. "turned off easy mode slightly"...is that what you call some 30-40 ships aggroing at warp in while combined with roughly 8-10 of those spamming dampers synchronously? That's not "turned off easy mode slightly", that is "batshit insane". Edit: For bonus points, show me your 'adapt or die' fit which swaps tank/dps for sebos/equivalent....then allow me to laugh harder as the rats melt your (now hilarious) 'adapted' tank in a heartbeat.
Did you train your new sensor compensation skills before you ran the assault? You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
99
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 08:45:00 -
[248] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:baltec1 wrote: And this right here is what people are whining about. CCP have turned off easy mode slightly and they are not at all happy about it!
Try...no, better still, record an attempt at "The Assault" vs Serpentis and post it. Preferably in something pricey and shiny so I can laugh at you. "turned off easy mode slightly"...is that what you call some 30-40 ships aggroing at warp in while combined with roughly 8-10 of those spamming dampers synchronously? That's not "turned off easy mode slightly", that is "batshit insane". Edit: For bonus points, show me your 'adapt or die' fit which swaps tank/dps for sebos/equivalent....then allow me to laugh harder as the rats melt your (now hilarious) 'adapted' tank in a heartbeat. Did you train your new sensor compensation skills before you ran the assault?
Please explain in detail how sensor strength is going to stop a damp. |
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
479
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 08:46:00 -
[249] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:baltec1 wrote: And this right here is what people are whining about. CCP have turned off easy mode slightly and they are not at all happy about it!
Try...no, better still, record an attempt at "The Assault" vs Serpentis and post it. Preferably in something pricey and shiny so I can laugh at you. "turned off easy mode slightly"...is that what you call some 30-40 ships aggroing at warp in while combined with roughly 8-10 of those spamming dampers synchronously? That's not "turned off easy mode slightly", that is "batshit insane". Edit: For bonus points, show me your 'adapt or die' fit which swaps tank/dps for sebos/equivalent....then allow me to laugh harder as the rats melt your (now hilarious) 'adapted' tank in a heartbeat. Did you train your new sensor compensation skills before you ran the assault? Yes because a bit higher sensor strength will help a lot when 10 ships damp you...
Ungi ma+¦urinn ++ekkir reglurnar, en gamli ma+¦urinn ++ekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions. |
Xenos van Omega
The nasty Nomads
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 10:31:00 -
[250] - Quote
Hey folks there is hope! I just found the solution for scramming frigs if you are in a bs. Fit a micro jump drive! Then just jump 100km away from scram and when the frigs income again snipe them out :)) |
|
Covert0ne
Sons Of 0din Dark Therapy
21
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 10:52:00 -
[251] - Quote
This thread screams "I'm bad please make the game easier for me"
Get out. http://www.dark-therapy.com Sov Holding, PvP Alliance |
Mund Richard
24
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 11:08:00 -
[252] - Quote
Lord Tempist wrote:So, in the meantime, while we are waiting for them to debug the full room aggro and other "adaptability" hurdles of the missions etc, my new hobby is forum trolling. I pay to be here too. When I am otherwise gainfully occupied you almost never see me here on the forums. So if you see me here, there must be something wrong, right? Looking forward to the debugging. Totally not why my post count for the last week/month is higher than the year before.
Sounds good! Please show us how you take your own advise. Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
317
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 11:15:00 -
[253] - Quote
DeBingJos wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:baltec1 wrote: And this right here is what people are whining about. CCP have turned off easy mode slightly and they are not at all happy about it!
Try...no, better still, record an attempt at "The Assault" vs Serpentis and post it. Preferably in something pricey and shiny so I can laugh at you. "turned off easy mode slightly"...is that what you call some 30-40 ships aggroing at warp in while combined with roughly 8-10 of those spamming dampers synchronously? That's not "turned off easy mode slightly", that is "batshit insane". Edit: For bonus points, show me your 'adapt or die' fit which swaps tank/dps for sebos/equivalent....then allow me to laugh harder as the rats melt your (now hilarious) 'adapted' tank in a heartbeat. Did you train your new sensor compensation skills before you ran the assault? Yes because a bit higher sensor strength will help a lot when 10 ships damp you...
It helped me just fine. Only a bit? My sensor strength is doubled with my level of the skills, for Gallente ships (Magnetometric). Maybe you're missing a few skills.... You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Mund Richard
25
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 11:22:00 -
[254] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:It helped me just fine. Only a bit? My sensor strength is doubled with my level of the skills, for Gallente ships (Magnetometric). Maybe you're missing a few skills.... Hint #1: Damps do not affect your sensor strength in any way. Hint #2: The skill offers a maximum of what, 20% at level 5? So doubled sensor strength is probably coming from somewhere else, or you remember it wrong. Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
baltec1
Bat Country
3189
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 12:25:00 -
[255] - Quote
Xenos van Omega wrote:Hey folks there is hope! I just found the solution for scramming frigs if you are in a bs. Fit a micro jump drive! Then just jump 100km away from scram and when the frigs income again snipe them out :))
Like all other advive this will be ignored by the irritated masses. |
Deja Blue
Vimana VII
10
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:10:00 -
[256] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Deja Blue wrote:It would appear to me that the developers are the enemy, more and more.
We all remember from Monocle-gate how they really feel about the players-base. It is as if the developers do everything possible to keep new players from even being able to play the game.
Lot to think about.
Darkfall: Unholy Wars is next week. I think I will try that. Did you unlock the hidden final boss?!
I thought Goonswarm was the final boss.
This change has the same effect as spawn camping in an FPS. I am not able to learn how the game plays what skills do what or even learn the map before I am PKd. And it is not something I can brute, or am not willing to brute force through because it takes MONTHS to train said skills. How can I trust that once I train up more skills to do something else that they are not going to make those skills irrelevant so I have to train up more skills.
All I want to do is mission and mine, and you wont have that. you would rather the game shut down than let me do my own thing over in my own little corner. Classic child psychology, you aren't playing with it but you are gonna make damned sure no one else plays with it either. How about you GrowTFU.
I have not cancelled because I am giving CCP time to fix this and time to make Gallente not be obsolete. Had I actually spent the time to learn those skills I would be livid. LIVID, and would have cancelled without question. Luckily I trained mining first but now I have to go redo my EVEMON and figure out what, if anything, I can do besides mining if and when changes are made.
As you get older you learn that time is precious, time is money. This is still a visceral knowledge, however, and the real time skill training scares the crap out of new players, let alone learning that MONTHS of TIME spent leveling skills will NOT be refunded to reallocate. One thinks that surely a company wouldn't **** off their customers and go for the easy money grab. Did CCP? Part of me says yes but the other part of me sees that they are complacent and content on maintaining the current subscriber numbers. This is completely opposite of every other company out there. Every other company tries desperately to get new players. As I have said, CCP seems to not only not care but actively implement things to prevent new players from being successful, such as this.
I have tried really hard,I mean really hard to get into this game since 2007, over several spurts of playing, CCP simply makes the process really really difficult. The game is stagnant in population. Certainly it grows ever so slowly over the years, and I have argued both way about EVE's "success" but there are several games coming to market that look to steal away EVE's thunder. Sandbox is the next big thing and EVE, one of the great innovators in the arena is not going to be able to cash in because of their stubborn ways. Adapt or die. EVE will feel the shift and your game may still have its playerbase but other games will surpass it and you will never know what awesome things could have been had EVE captured 1Million or 2 Million subs.
Some of us are here for the sandbox, damn the spaceships and damn the terrible decisions being made but the instant any and I mean any game that is a sandbox and lets new players actually learn the game.
Easy to learn difficult to master is the typical philosophy not "so difficult to learn you have to research and use an external third party program to plan out the skills you will be training for 3 months before you can even do anything, and then we will nerf it, and not refund skill points or time spent training now useless skills" and no I do not think that deploying and retrieving drones via a drop-down menu is in the category of easy to learn difficult to master.
And lets be honest here, this is clearly a strategy for a money grab, we remember monocle-gate and how those tasty hardcore tears devastated..a statue, we also remember what CCP thinks of their players, they are going to make that money somehow, they cant do it via new player assimilation and retention or well have another jita on our hands.
The social mirroring of the US social strat is astonishing. We have the rich elite Goonswarms versus the immigrants and illegal workers with mining and the average every day Joe that works with the mission runners. Lo and behold the elite rule the roost and are in bed with the developers and want the miners and missioners gone because they are not worthy, never mind that they keep the economy running, ships in production and fodder for meta gaming.
Unlike real life, we can leave whenever we want and let you have your paradise. Be careful what you wish for. |
baltec1
Bat Country
3194
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:13:00 -
[257] - Quote
Deja Blue wrote:
Unlike real life, we can leave whenever we want and let you have your paradise. Be careful what you wish for.
So in conclution your tldr is...
"CCP make missions so easy I can AFK them again." |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
99
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:17:00 -
[258] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Xenos van Omega wrote:Hey folks there is hope! I just found the solution for scramming frigs if you are in a bs. Fit a micro jump drive! Then just jump 100km away from scram and when the frigs income again snipe them out :)) Like all other advive this will be ignored by the irritated masses.
Failed to acquire lock because the target is at 103584m and your maximum targeting range is 14346m.
Then, when they close again, you have a 3 minute lock time. A BARGE can cover 14km in 3 minutes.
Do the assault, vs serpentis. Post the hilarity.
Would love to see a tank that can last against 30-40 blaster boats at point blank range long enough to even kill the frigs when you can't use drones.
Edit: In the end I had to use a fast locking cruiser to speed tank it and pop the frigs whilst rewarping to get targets, then bring the BS back to kill the bigger fish, again rewarping all over the place to get targets. Mining was more fun.
It wasn't challenging, it was silly. |
baltec1
Bat Country
3194
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:20:00 -
[259] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:baltec1 wrote:Xenos van Omega wrote:Hey folks there is hope! I just found the solution for scramming frigs if you are in a bs. Fit a micro jump drive! Then just jump 100km away from scram and when the frigs income again snipe them out :)) Like all other advive this will be ignored by the irritated masses. Failed to acquire lock because the target is at 103584m and your maximum targeting range is 14346m. Then, when they close again, you have a 3 minute lock time. A BARGE can cover 14km in 3 minutes. Do the assault, vs serpentis. Post the hilarity. Would love to see a tank that can last against 30-40 blaster boats at point blank range long enough to even kill the frigs when you can't use drones.
What kind of battleship are you using that only has a range of 14km and a lock time greater than a titan? |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
99
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:20:00 -
[260] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:baltec1 wrote:Xenos van Omega wrote:Hey folks there is hope! I just found the solution for scramming frigs if you are in a bs. Fit a micro jump drive! Then just jump 100km away from scram and when the frigs income again snipe them out :)) Like all other advive this will be ignored by the irritated masses. Failed to acquire lock because the target is at 103584m and your maximum targeting range is 14346m. Then, when they close again, you have a 3 minute lock time. A BARGE can cover 14km in 3 minutes. Do the assault, vs serpentis. Post the hilarity. Would love to see a tank that can last against 30-40 blaster boats at point blank range long enough to even kill the frigs when you can't use drones. What kind of battleship are you using that only has a range of 14km?
Full room aggro vs damp spam.
Do you even know what NPC EWAR is or feels like since this patch? |
|
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
479
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:20:00 -
[261] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:baltec1 wrote:Xenos van Omega wrote:Hey folks there is hope! I just found the solution for scramming frigs if you are in a bs. Fit a micro jump drive! Then just jump 100km away from scram and when the frigs income again snipe them out :)) Like all other advive this will be ignored by the irritated masses. Failed to acquire lock because the target is at 103584m and your maximum targeting range is 14346m. Then, when they close again, you have a 3 minute lock time. A BARGE can cover 14km in 3 minutes. Do the assault, vs serpentis. Post the hilarity. Would love to see a tank that can last against 30-40 blaster boats at point blank range long enough to even kill the frigs when you can't use drones. What kind of battleship are you using that only has a range of 14km?
Damps do that to your lock range. (Assault serpentis -> lots of damps) Ungi ma+¦urinn ++ekkir reglurnar, en gamli ma+¦urinn ++ekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions. |
Deja Blue
Vimana VII
10
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:21:00 -
[262] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Deja Blue wrote:
Unlike real life, we can leave whenever we want and let you have your paradise. Be careful what you wish for.
So in conclution your tldr is... "CCP make missions so easy I can AFK them again."
TLDR is, "So, THIS is how Iceland's financial crisis happened."
|
baltec1
Bat Country
3195
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:25:00 -
[263] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Full room aggro vs damp spam.
Do you even know what NPC EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Because stuff doesnt lose target lock when you warp... |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
99
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 14:09:00 -
[264] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Full room aggro vs damp spam.
Do you even know what NPC EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Because stuff doesnt lose target lock when you warp...
Because NPCs care how far away you are before targetting/relocking.... |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
567
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 14:19:00 -
[265] - Quote
Guys, try to keep it on topic before this gets locked too. Realize this is precisely what the trolls in this thread want, so don't feed 'em. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
454
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 14:41:00 -
[266] - Quote
People, it is simple.
CCP is very aware of the impact these changes have had on the game. I , among many others, tested this AI on Duality and screamed at the top of lungs at Fox Four in the test thread about how awful this was going to be.
CCP released the code anyway, with a promise to make it even harder. They plan on fixing the loophole where an NPC spawn that is on the field when you release a flight of drones will ignore the 2nd and subsequent flights of drones. After that loophole is closed, the NPC's will target any flight of drones.
The post-release issues thread is now 62 pages long, and while there have been multiple replies by devs about all sorts of issues, you can do your own investigation on how many times the dev's have commented about this. You will be very disappointed.
So it comes down to this. CCP will do one of the following:
a. Roll this back (not a chance of that happening). b. Turn the aggression way way down on the new slider, and not close the loophole. c. Turn the aggression way way down on the new slider, yet close the loophole, which still dooms all drone users, but not all mission runners. d. Introduce a separate slider for null sec, and lower the aggression on that slider, but leave the slider for high sec at gonzo levels. The only way we will know if this option is chosen is if the null sec PvE'ers suddenly stop complaining. e. Do nothing more at all, effectively wiping out many forms of PVE income.
I did run a few mission after the release in an Ishtar using the loophole, but it is just too painful to do on a regular basis. Until CCP tells us what they are planning on doing, or NOT doing if they choose option e, I for one, am just cooling my jets in station, maybe running the odd Incursion.
I have a decent pile of cash from my null sec days to tide me over for awhile. I am truly sorry for the people who don't have that luxury.
One last thing, for the deniers and propagandists, I also tested the new AI on Duality in a Vargur. For all the reasons posted a dozen times about no drones left, and NPC frigs under BS guns, I ask you to post a link to You Tube of you running Buzzkill in a BS gun boat, or a drone boat. Or WC Serps, Angels, or Sansha room 2 in a drone boat. Or any number of other missions that people have detailed here. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
454
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 14:43:00 -
[267] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Guys, try to keep it on topic before this gets locked too. Realize this is precisely what the trolls in this thread want, so don't feed 'em.
So true. The ISD have locked all other GD threads on this. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
99
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 14:49:00 -
[268] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Guys, try to keep it on topic before this gets locked too. Realize this is precisely what the trolls in this thread want, so don't feed 'em.
I am trying, the insane EWAR and full room aggro is a facet of the new AI - bugged or not.
There have been a few particularly vicious side effects of the drone change - a change which is actually perfectly manageable in isolation i.e. when the rest of the AI doesn't go psycho. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1886
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 15:15:00 -
[269] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:People, it is simple.
CCP is very aware of the impact these changes have had on the game. I , among many others, tested this AI on Duality and screamed at the top of lungs at Fox Four in the test thread about how awful this was going to be.
CCP released the code anyway, with a promise to make it even harder. It definitely seems simple, when you put it that way. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2231
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 15:57:00 -
[270] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Full room aggro vs damp spam.
Do you even know what NPC EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Sorry, they are too busy deriding the other players on the forum to have actually logged on and seen. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
322
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 16:02:00 -
[271] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Full room aggro vs damp spam.
Do you even know what NPC EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Do you even know what PvP EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Want me to show you? You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
99
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 17:02:00 -
[272] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Full room aggro vs damp spam.
Do you even know what NPC EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Do you even know what PvP EWAR is or feels like since this patch? Want me to show you?
I can see how that is in any way relevant to AI changes.
|
March rabbit
Aliastra
284
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 17:10:00 -
[273] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Full room aggro vs damp spam.
Do you even know what NPC EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Do you even know what PvP EWAR is or feels like since this patch? Want me to show you? because in PVP you always engage when you "1 vs many" or "small fleet vs lots" |
baltec1
Bat Country
3204
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:06:00 -
[274] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Full room aggro vs damp spam.
Do you even know what NPC EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Do you even know what PvP EWAR is or feels like since this patch? Want me to show you? because in PVP you always engage when you "1 vs many" or "small fleet vs lots" And you think you should shred your way through entire npc fleets with no effort?
Many other people have adapted to these changes, if you cant then bring a friend on the missions you cant figure out. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
99
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:12:00 -
[275] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:March rabbit wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Full room aggro vs damp spam.
Do you even know what NPC EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Do you even know what PvP EWAR is or feels like since this patch? Want me to show you? because in PVP you always engage when you "1 vs many" or "small fleet vs lots" And you think you should shred your way through entire npc fleets with no effort? Many other people have adapted to these changes, if you cant then bring a friend on the missions you cant figure out.
Waiting on that fit/video.....
Everything you've suggested is poor theroycraft, which to anyone who has actually experienced it, knows to be false.
I had adapated, I didn't say I could do it - what I said was the required mechanics to actually do that mission are a) not fun, b) contrieved and c) a very bad side effect of otherwise managable AI changes.
As I say, I await an actual example of your adaptive brilliance....I won't hold my breath, however, because we all know it isn't coming. |
baltec1
Bat Country
3204
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:18:00 -
[276] - Quote
Quote: Waiting on that fit/video.....
Everything you've suggested is poor theroycraft, which to anyone who has actually experienced it, knows to be false.
I had adapated, I didn't say I could do it - what I said was the required mechanics to actually do that mission are a) not fun, b) contrieved and c) a very bad side effect of otherwise managable AI changes.
As I say, I await an actual example of your adaptive brilliance....I won't hold my breath, however, because we all know it isn't coming.
Edit: Your posts have a very strong ring of Mary Antoinette about them.
And your sound like the whines from miners about tanking their ships. Very well for damps use a blaster boat. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
99
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:21:00 -
[277] - Quote
Please address the request for a boat capable of tanking serpentis at <15km. Note that'll be at LEAST 30 blaster boats you'll be needing to tank combined with a ~3 minute lock time on the frigs.
Go on, it'll be fun to see the fail you manage :D
Edit: Or better still, stop commenting in the AI feedback thread when it is obvious you've not experienced it in anger. |
baltec1
Bat Country
3204
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:30:00 -
[278] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Please address the request for a boat capable of tanking serpentis at <15km. Note that'll be at LEAST 30 blaster boats you'll be needing to tank combined with a ~3 minute lock time on the frigs.
Go on, it'll be fun to see the fail you manage :D
Edit: Or better still, stop commenting in the AI feedback thread when it is obvious you've not experienced it in
What a shock, yet another bear dismissing advice without even trying it and then insulting the person trying to help them. Also what the hell have you done yo your ship to get the locking time of a titan? |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
99
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:38:00 -
[279] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Please address the request for a boat capable of tanking serpentis at <15km. Note that'll be at LEAST 30 blaster boats you'll be needing to tank combined with a ~3 minute lock time on the frigs.
Go on, it'll be fun to see the fail you manage :D
Edit: Or better still, stop commenting in the AI feedback thread when it is obvious you've not experienced it in What a shock, yet another bear dismissing advice without even trying it and then insulting the person trying to help them. Also what the hell have you done yo your ship to get the locking time of a titan?
Once again, a perfect post showing you've NEVER engaged serp. rats. Or perhaps you don't understand how something as basic as damps work.
Either way....Bravo, bravo. |
Mistah Ewedynao
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
129
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:52:00 -
[280] - Quote
Quote:What a shock, yet another bear dismissing advice without even trying it and then insulting the person trying to help them. Also what the hell have you done yo your ship to get the locking time of a titan?
Even more shocking a Suicide Ganker giving advice on how to run missions in high sec. Troll much???
You try to lock a frigate with 10 NPC cruisers damping you and you'll see how hard it is to lock.
I am sure you are an expert on ganking defenseless ships so perhaps you should post where your expertise is welcome. C & P |
|
baltec1
Bat Country
3204
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 18:53:00 -
[281] - Quote
Quote:
Once again, a perfect post showing you've NEVER engaged serp. rats.
Bravo, bravo.
Had a nightmare for them. Used to wipe out everything bc and below in a single volly. So with that in mind and your refusal to use blasters go for a tachyon mare, fit a micro jump drive and use the range advantage to volly the offending cruisers and frigates.
|
baltec1
Bat Country
3204
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:03:00 -
[282] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:baltec1 wrote:Quote:
Once again, a perfect post showing you've NEVER engaged serp. rats.
Bravo, bravo.
Had a nightmare for them. Used to wipe out everything bc and below in a single volly. So with that in mind and your refusal to use blasters go for a tachyon mare, fit a micro jump drive and use the range advantage to volly the offending cruisers and frigates. Yes, that was before the AI changes. Before full room aggro on warp in. Before 8-10 ships damp you constantly. That is the point, the side effect of the AI change has been to put NPC EWAR on steroids, when coupled with full room aggro at warp in, it is disproportionately silly. Previously you had specific groups and sporadic damping. Oh you had access to the micro jump drive before retribution?
Well if you dont want to use that tactic either then you can go for a close range pulse nightmare with extra tracking. |
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
258
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:04:00 -
[283] - Quote
I did some testing over the weekend. And I have some numbers for missions that are pretty consistent. I also found that the new NPC AI actually makes AFK ratting more bottable.
L4 Hi sec Missions: drones will pull all aggro in 5 secs or less, often immediately. But no more than 5 secs. This depends on the main BS taking full aggro, then deploying drones. Once drones are in the sky - no matter what else has happended or is happening - drones will take all agrro in 5 secs or less. This gives you a few seconds, once in a while, to do some DPS, sort of the way being parallel/sequential damped while in a gun or missile boat works.
So, drone boats are screwed in many missions and it's a PITA to constantly recall/deploy them. Much loss of fun factor.
Ratting: I tried to manually behave the way I think a bot would have. I intentionally did not try to lock any ratz nor direct the drones in any way. I expected to lose drones like mad. I lost no drones. I made lots of Iskies.
I used a variation of a technique intended to AKF level Vs with a Rattlesnake that I was told about on these very forums a few years ago. But I used my RR Thanny: --> Using heavies (Ogres) set to focus fire and agressive: - fly to a system that you know the drones can pretty much handle the expected DPS - release drones and wait - drones take aggro - drones kill ratz - RR drones to full health - recall the drones and repeat
Botting just got a lot easier. You do not have to lock any ratz - they will auto-attack your drones and the drones will reciprocate. Personally, I'm thinking bot programmers are LOVING this change. The only way to make this easier/better for botters is to create looting drones !!! Yippee!
Is this what CCP intended ??? I know how to fix this. Make it so drones DO NOT pull NPC aggro so easily ... DOH ! |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
323
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:12:00 -
[284] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Full room aggro vs damp spam.
Do you even know what NPC EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Do you even know what PvP EWAR is or feels like since this patch? Want me to show you? I can't see how that is in any way relevant to AI changes.
Because the AI is still easier. Relevant because you still really haven't hit "hard mode" yet. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
323
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:16:00 -
[285] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:March rabbit wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Full room aggro vs damp spam.
Do you even know what NPC EWAR is or feels like since this patch?
Do you even know what PvP EWAR is or feels like since this patch? Want me to show you? because in PVP you always engage when you "1 vs many" or "small fleet vs lots" And you think you should shred your way through entire npc fleets with no effort? Many other people have adapted to these changes, if you cant then bring a friend on the missions you cant figure out.
^ This. You can fly missions like World's Collide completely solo and with the right boat it's stupidly easy. IMHO, it's still harder than "The Assault" namely because you're up against two different kinds of enemy (different damage, different resists). You don't have to kill everything, of course, but it's still easy to do it solo.
All the missions are completely predictable. Now, they're unpredictable again. But I'll BET you every little isky I have that once you get used to them, they'll become predictable again.
But if you tried going up against the same size fleets of players as you do solo v. NPCs on these missions, you wouldn't stand a chance. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
100
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:34:00 -
[286] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:baltec1 wrote:Quote:
Once again, a perfect post showing you've NEVER engaged serp. rats.
Bravo, bravo.
Had a nightmare for them. Used to wipe out everything bc and below in a single volly. So with that in mind and your refusal to use blasters go for a tachyon mare, fit a micro jump drive and use the range advantage to volly the offending cruisers and frigates. Yes, that was before the AI changes. Before full room aggro on warp in. Before 8-10 ships damp you constantly. That is the point, the side effect of the AI change has been to put NPC EWAR on steroids, when coupled with full room aggro at warp in, it is disproportionately silly. Previously you had specific groups and sporadic damping. Oh you had access to the micro jump drive before retribution? Well if you dont want to use that tactic either then you can go for a close range pulse nightmare with extra tracking.
I dont think a NM can soak the pain required to face them point blank. I cant fly it, but the incoming DPS is pretty special, tore strips off my SNI previously and that has a rather good tank indeed.
@Remiel Pollard Comparing PvE to PvP is simply ridiculous and I shant address it further with you. I was also unaware the blobbing and gate camps are the new yardstick for 'hard mode' thanks for clearing that up. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
570
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:37:00 -
[287] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:^ This. You can fly missions like World's Collide completely solo and with the right boat it's stupidly easy. IMHO, it's still harder than "The Assault" namely because you're up against two different kinds of enemy (different damage, different resists). You don't have to kill everything, of course, but it's still easy to do it solo.
It depends largely where you are doing your missions. It's an old and well-known fact that space is not created equal. Missioning for one faction is often harder than for another, based on the type of rats you get. Yes, some missions are doable. And some missions are now absurdly difficult, so much so that risk far outweighs the reward.
Quote:All the missions are completely predictable. Now, they're unpredictable again. But I'll BET you every little isky I have that once you get used to them, they'll become predictable again.
We are agreed then, the AI change failed miserably! After all, wasn't the whole point of it to make missions less boring and predictable?
Quote:But if you tried going up against the same size fleets of players as you do solo v. NPCs on these missions, you wouldn't stand a chance.
I don't suppose you are looking for anything deeper and more meaningful than "Well, duh?" Because I got nothing. |
baltec1
Bat Country
3206
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:50:00 -
[288] - Quote
Quote:
I dont think a NM can soak the pain required to face them point blank. I cant fly it, but the incoming DPS is pretty special, tore strips off my SNI previously and that has a rather good tank indeed.
@Remiel Pollard Comparing PvE to PvP is simply ridiculous and I shant address it further with you. I was also unaware the blobbing and gate camps are the new yardstick for 'hard mode' thanks for clearing that up.
Well theres a blaster protius. Smaller sig, faster, great damage and can tank. Slap on an afterburner and you shouldn't have too many issues. Or go vindicator and just nuke everything. |
EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
343
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:54:00 -
[289] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:We are agreed then, the AI change failed miserably! After all, wasn't the whole point of it to make missions less boring and predictable?
Ah jeez, you got me.
Let's change it back so everything is more boring and predictable again and save everyone the effort. |
Mund Richard
27
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:57:00 -
[290] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Oh you had access to the micro jump drive before retribution?
Again, missions where you warp in, and have many scram frigs on you auto-engage. It's supposed to shut down the MJD...
baltec1 wrote:Well theres a blaster protius. Smaller sig, faster, great damage and can tank. Slap on an afterburner and you shouldn't have too many issues. Or go vindicator and just nuke everything. That works, agreed. My question: Should a T3 be the entry level for L4s? Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
|
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
571
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:03:00 -
[291] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Well theres a blaster protius. Smaller sig, faster, great damage and can tank. Slap on an afterburner and you shouldn't have too many issues. Or go vindicator and just nuke everything.
Yeah, because everyone can easily afford multi-billion ISK ships, and has skills needed to make use of them (like Vindi). How about you try doing L4s with imperfect (seriously imperfect, bordering on weak) skills and using a T1 battleship. Especially a T1 Gallente battleship (which limits your choice to Mega, Domi and Hype). What's that? Adapt by cross-training for another 2 months? Yeah, I'll get right on that, says the new player clicking "unsubscribe" button. |
Mistah Ewedynao
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
129
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:12:00 -
[292] - Quote
Quote:How about you try doing L4s with imperfect (seriously imperfect, bordering on weak) skills and using a T1 battleship. Especially a T1 Gallente battleship (which limits your choice to Mega, Domi and Hype). What's that? Adapt by cross-training for another 2 months? Yeah, I'll get right on that, says the new player clicking "unsubscribe" button.
While I agree the combo of the drone changes, incessant eWar and full room aggro is messed up, I do not feel that a pilot with poor core skills should be able to run Lvl 4 missions solo.
That is one of the problems that I think CCP is trying to cure, it's just too much curre at once. |
Pretty GuyYeah
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:13:00 -
[293] - Quote
Drones need a compensation for the changes. Either buff them or revamp the system entirely.
// Pretty GuyYeah |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
100
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:20:00 -
[294] - Quote
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:Quote:How about you try doing L4s with imperfect (seriously imperfect, bordering on weak) skills and using a T1 battleship. Especially a T1 Gallente battleship (which limits your choice to Mega, Domi and Hype). What's that? Adapt by cross-training for another 2 months? Yeah, I'll get right on that, says the new player clicking "unsubscribe" button. While I agree the combo of the drone changes, incessant eWar and full room aggro is messed up, I do not feel that a pilot with poor core skills should be able to run Lvl 4 missions solo. That is one of the problems that I think CCP is trying to cure, it's just too much curre at once.
I don't know it was ever a problem. I remember how long those things took with low skills.
Achieveble, yes, but took AGES. |
Mistah Ewedynao
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
129
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:29:00 -
[295] - Quote
Quote:I don't know it was ever a problem. I remember how long those things took with low skills.
Achieveble, yes, but took AGES.
Yeah agreed. I would fly with a friend who had a T1 BS and I had an SB. Still took a LONG time. Lots of young characters who were flying L4's solo with borderline skills, or even less than borderline are in bad shape now.
I feel for them but I remember flying LOTS of L3's solo and L4's with a friend before I ever tried a L4 solo.
But I always was a cauttious guy........ |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
462
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:37:00 -
[296] - Quote
It is pretty sad when a member of the CSM who supposedly represents high sec claimed there is no defect in the AI that people can use to still run drone missions. When that loophole is closed it is lights out for us.
Pretty much indicates that it is completely over for high sec mission runners.
Oh, and ISD, before you think about banning me for trolling, ranting, or personal attacks on a CSM member, you might want to actually read the CSM member's statement about there not being a loophole, then me posting the dev exact statement about the loophole existing, and highlighting the part about the loophole the CSM member says does not exist. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
100
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:42:00 -
[297] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:It is pretty sad when a member of the CSM who supposedly represents high sec claimed there is no defect in the AI that people can use to still run drone missions. When that loophole is closed it is lights out for us.
Pretty much indicates that it is completely over for high sec mission runners.
Precision missiles are holding strong atm. 3 shotting elite frigs is fine by me. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
462
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:43:00 -
[298] - Quote
Oh, and before I get banned and can't post (we must not state facts on the forums, especially when they make certain people look bad), how do I contact Internal Affairs? |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
462
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:44:00 -
[299] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:It is pretty sad when a member of the CSM who supposedly represents high sec claimed there is no defect in the AI that people can use to still run drone missions. When that loophole is closed it is lights out for us.
Pretty much indicates that it is completely over for high sec mission runners.
Precision missiles are holding strong atm. 3 shotting elite frigs is fine by me.
Sorry, you are correct.
I should have stated it is over for any mission runner who relies on drones. Tengu pilots of course can keep rocking and rolling. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
573
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 20:49:00 -
[300] - Quote
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:While I agree the combo of the drone changes, incessant eWar and full room aggro is messed up, I do not feel that a pilot with poor core skills should be able to run Lvl 4 missions solo.
Realize just how long it takes to get "core" skills up. You may not remember, but think back when your character was 1-3 months old. Doing a single L4, if it was doable at all, would take you a VERY long time. I remember doing "Duo of Death", arguably the easiest L4 there is (just 2 big battleships with colossal tanks). My first attempt, I couldn't even break their tanks, using proper ammo and drones. Spent the next 5 days skilling up a bit more, and finally managed to do it. As it was, it took about 40 mins to do the mission, and payout from bounties was 2 million ISK. Yet you feel that a new pilot shouldn't be able to do it? Why the heck not? It's not like ISK/hr is great when you are low SP. In fact, until you hit about 6-8 mil (3-4 months' training, roughly) your income is absolutely pathetic.
And once your skills are good, you usually move on from missions anyway! You go into WHs or start running more profitable plexes or what have you, or join FW and farm LP there. Etc., etc.
In a way, missions are there FOR new players, who still need structure and guidance more than anything, so that they don't become hopelessly lost. Missions are also incredibly helpful with immersion and getting the player into EVE lore. You just don't get that connection doing anything else in the game. And what this change does is build a giant 100 foot wall covered with barbed wire and alligators perched at the top, before a player can go from L3 to L4. Who does that help? I mean, really, who benefits? OK, that's debatable. But who definitely gets pummeled by this? You guessed it, new players! And at the same time CCP is moaning that the new player retention isn't good and they're working on improving it? Well, how about improving it by NOT kicking new players in the face with this stuff when they're just getting into the game? |
|
Ager Agemo
Saturn Reaper
143
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 21:08:00 -
[301] - Quote
i will just say that i love the drones changes and my golem barely notices the changes when running misions lvl 4, in fact now i make more isk per hour using salvage drones while running the mission.
and i believe it would be nice if this changes promote running missions in groups. |
March rabbit
Aliastra
284
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 21:09:00 -
[302] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Did you train your new sensor compensation skills before you ran the assault? +1 for you for finding me new (possibly useful) skill. however people are right: it won't safe you from damp from 10 NPC ships |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
574
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 21:10:00 -
[303] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:and i believe it would be nice if this changes promote running missions in groups.
Missions should remain soloable, IMHO. If people want to group, that's what Incursions are for. Leave missions for those who don't have the time or desire to fleet up. Most successful MMOs have a very clear "soloable content" and "group content" split. And MMOs without either one tend to croak pretty fast.
|
March rabbit
Aliastra
284
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 21:15:00 -
[304] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:You can fly missions like World's Collide completely solo and with the right boat it's stupidly easy. IMHO, it's still harder than "The Assault" namely because you're up against two different kinds of enemy (different damage, different resists). You don't have to kill everything, of course, but it's still easy to do it solo.
you i know. i did some missions for fun these days. Blaster Hyperion.
Remiel Pollard wrote: All the missions are completely predictable. Now, they're unpredictable again. But I'll BET you every little isky I have that once you get used to them, they'll become predictable again.
exactly. predictable and boring as previous. No fun added.
Remiel Pollard wrote: But if you tried going up against the same size fleets of players as you do solo v. NPCs on these missions, you wouldn't stand a chance.
lol... you'r funny child you really say someone will survive (or even win) in battleship in the middle of nowhere attacking fleet of 10-20 assorted ships with like 50% of battleships???? |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
100
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 21:17:00 -
[305] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:It is pretty sad when a member of the CSM who supposedly represents high sec claimed there is no defect in the AI that people can use to still run drone missions. When that loophole is closed it is lights out for us.
Pretty much indicates that it is completely over for high sec mission runners.
Precision missiles are holding strong atm. 3 shotting elite frigs is fine by me. Sorry, you are correct. I should have stated it is over for any mission runner who relies on drones. Tengu pilots of course can keep rocking and rolling.
FWIW, I was actually referring to precision cruises |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
400
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 21:19:00 -
[306] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Did you train your new sensor compensation skills before you ran the assault? +1 for you for finding me new (possibly useful) skill. however people are right: it won't safe you from damp from 10 NPC ships If this is the assault against serpentis I'm not sure how those would help. Sensor strength doesn't counter damps unless I've been misinformed. |
baltec1
Bat Country
3208
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 21:23:00 -
[307] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:baltec1 wrote:Well theres a blaster protius. Smaller sig, faster, great damage and can tank. Slap on an afterburner and you shouldn't have too many issues. Or go vindicator and just nuke everything. Yeah, because everyone can easily afford multi-billion ISK ships, and has skills needed to make use of them (like Vindi). How about you try doing L4s with imperfect (seriously imperfect, bordering on weak) skills and using a T1 battleship. Especially a T1 Gallente battleship (which limits your choice to Mega, Domi and Hype). What's that? Adapt by cross-training for another 2 months? Yeah, I'll get right on that, says the new player clicking "unsubscribe" button. I do use a hyperion. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
575
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 21:25:00 -
[308] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote:baltec1 wrote:Well theres a blaster protius. Smaller sig, faster, great damage and can tank. Slap on an afterburner and you shouldn't have too many issues. Or go vindicator and just nuke everything. Yeah, because everyone can easily afford multi-billion ISK ships, and has skills needed to make use of them (like Vindi). How about you try doing L4s with imperfect (seriously imperfect, bordering on weak) skills and using a T1 battleship. Especially a T1 Gallente battleship (which limits your choice to Mega, Domi and Hype). What's that? Adapt by cross-training for another 2 months? Yeah, I'll get right on that, says the new player clicking "unsubscribe" button. I do use a hyperion.
So? Do like the lady asks, and post a video of you soloing that Serpentis mission, today, in your Hyperion. We'd all love to see it. And remember to use your moderate-low SP character, not one with perfect Vs across the board. |
Skorpynekomimi
273
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 21:37:00 -
[309] - Quote
Specialisation is for insects. I have other ways of making ISK; L4 missions are simply an easy faucet of ISK, salvage, trade goods, and minerals. That said, I fly an active-tanked gunboat Mael. My drone bay is small. Should I ditch the pricy T2 drones and just go with cheap T1s I can just produce myself?
I just specced an alt into drone boats. Domi sentry drone boat still valid tactic? Or should she just rep/cap transfer my Mael? |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
2222
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 21:45:00 -
[310] - Quote
Mokanor Lenak wrote:And not everyone wants to have to multi-box, or leeching on friends just to get a mission done.
One person's "leeching" is another person's "teamwork". If you bring friends along to make your missions easier (and faster) is that really leeching?
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
|
baltec1
Bat Country
3208
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 22:06:00 -
[311] - Quote
Jame Jarl wrote: So? Do like the lady asks, and post a video of you soloing that Serpentis mission, today, in your Hyperion. We'd all love to see it. And remember to use your moderate-low SP character, not one with perfect Vs across the board.
Actually, you know what, forget it. I found the ignore button.
Yep ignore anyone who disagrees with you and posts answers to problems you face.
For the people who are willing to learn I would also advise a blaster rokh or a auto maelstrom. |
Mund Richard
27
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 22:43:00 -
[312] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:So? Do like the lady asks, and post a video of you soloing that Serpentis mission, today, in your Hyperion. We'd all love to see it. And remember to use your moderate-low SP character, not one with perfect Vs across the board. INB4 Deadly Duo
It's relatively easy to find a 6 hour timer mission that's still fairly easily doable, or if you do some creative workarounds. Now Assault, I'm more curious about. Bet it can be done if the frigs don't jam you too soon.
Skorpynekomimi wrote:Specialisation is for insects. I have other ways of making ISK; L4 missions are simply an easy faucet of ISK, salvage, trade goods, and minerals. That said, I fly an active-tanked gunboat Mael. My drone bay is small. Should I ditch the pricy T2 drones and just go with cheap T1s I can just produce myself?
I just specced an alt into drone boats. Domi sentry drone boat still valid tactic? Or should she just rep/cap transfer my Mael? I find the insect comment ...interesting.
As long as the CCP "approved" glitch doesn't get fixed, a mix of T1 and T2 is the way to go: First unleash T1s until they die, and the next flight won't get touched at all. Or so I've heard, I'm using Garde IIs pretty much exclusively on my droneboat.
Domi sentry tactic is something I used since the patch almost as well as I have before, but with my own twist on it. See for yourself, if your flavour doesn't work, change it. Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
100
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 22:48:00 -
[313] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Now Assault, I'm more curious about. Bet it can be done if the frigs don't jam you too soon.
It can be, but it is a faff. Warp in, primary ANYTHING which can scram, ignore everything else because whole room aggros anyway. Get them locked and alpha'd before the room properly wakes up. Wehn damped to death you can warp out, rinse & repeat. I don't think anyone expected warping in and out as any sort of realistic EWAR counter.
It's lethal the first time you try it not knowing its so dangerous though.
Really its just the perfect storm of drone hate, room aggro and mad EWAR. Without all three in play at once, it's far more managable. |
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe Against ALL Authorities
588
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 22:51:00 -
[314] - Quote
Still waiting for CCP to comment. FIRE FRIENDSHIP TORPEDOES ! Louis's epic skill guide v1.1 |
Mund Richard
27
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 23:24:00 -
[315] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote: It's lethal the first time you try it not knowing its so dangerous though. Really its just the perfect storm of drone hate, room aggro and mad EWAR. Without all three in play at once, it's far more managable. Well, I'm fairly convinced that the first room full agro alone there is more lethal than any other L4 I ran.
In fact, I always used the first room to test any tank setup I had, and was put off by how easy the rest is to tank in comparison. Should be the other way around, rooms becoming rougher, and not boring.
Also, it's the mission where I learned that autofire sentries are not the best combo with heavy damp, when the trigger leading to extra battleships needs only to be scratched and not killed. Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
325
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 00:19:00 -
[316] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:We are agreed then, the AI change failed miserably! After all, wasn't the whole point of it to make missions less boring and predictable?
Why do people insist on putting words in my mouth? We are not agreed. Why I said directly translates to "adapt or quit". You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
325
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 00:23:00 -
[317] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:March rabbit wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Did you train your new sensor compensation skills before you ran the assault? +1 for you for finding me new (possibly useful) skill. however people are right: it won't safe you from damp from 10 NPC ships If this is the assault against serpentis I'm not sure how those would help. Sensor strength doesn't counter damps unless I've been misinformed.
Not on it's own, no. But when used in conjunction with sensor boosters and/or amplifiers, you should be able to counter it sufficiently. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Mund Richard
27
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 00:28:00 -
[318] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Did you train your new sensor compensation skills before you ran the assault? Not on it's own, no. But when used in conjunction with You do realise the sensor compensation skill has 0.0% effect on dampeners I hope, and such your argument would be more valid without the new skills than with it.
edit: oh wait, I've already told you so once already in this very same thread. Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
580
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 00:35:00 -
[319] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote:We are agreed then, the AI change failed miserably! After all, wasn't the whole point of it to make missions less boring and predictable? Why do people insist on putting words in my mouth? We are not agreed. Why I said directly translates to "adapt or quit".
No, what you said was that old missions were predictable. Current missions are unpredictable. But once you get used to them, they will be predictable as well. Which means, the AI change did nothing. The missions were predictable before, and they will be predictable again, just as soon as people adapt. Net result = predictable missioning, meaning AI change failed to effect any change.
And that's one of the key complaints with this AI switch. It didn't do anything GOOD. It did not improve the quality of the experience, or made it more challenging (aside from full room aggro, which is likely a bug). It is simply the question of adapting. Which for most people doesn't even involve changing their playstyle, but rather simply cross-training into a Tengu. And once adaptation period is over, things return to the status quo, meaning the AI switch accomplished nothing constructive.
A better alternative would have been drastic change to both the AI and the PvE mechanics. That is, missions would no longer pit your ship against 40 enemies. And combat would be challenging based on things that would function similar to PvP: worrying about scrambling the other guy, webbing him, watching your and his transversal, dealing with cap and cap warfare, etc., etc. That is, you'd approach each mission the same way you'd approach a PvP duel. Which would do wonders for both competence of carebears in PvP (by becoming competent PvEers, they would also become semi-cometent PvPers, instead of being utterly clueless like now). And with this change, it would be 100% impossible to do a mission AFK, or semi-AFK. In fact, anything but a full 100% presence at the keyboard should get you killed. But the reward would be in line with the risk. Make things interesting. That's a change I could stand behind. Current version? Sloppy and pointless. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
325
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 01:13:00 -
[320] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote:We are agreed then, the AI change failed miserably! After all, wasn't the whole point of it to make missions less boring and predictable? Why do people insist on putting words in my mouth? We are not agreed. Why I said directly translates to "adapt or quit". No, what you said was that old missions were predictable. Current missions are unpredictable. But once you get used to them, they will be predictable as well. Which means, the AI change did nothing. The missions were predictable before, and they will be predictable again, just as soon as people adapt. Net result = predictable missioning, meaning AI change failed to effect any change.
Why is the mission's predictability the only factor for change? Just because it is predictable, does mean it is easy. You are still putting words in my mouth by asserting what it was that I meant, but adapting to a mission is what makes it predictable, because missioning was meant to be a grind, not unlike mining.
The AI made missions more interesting - even if they become predictable, they can still be interesting. Driving the Nurburgring is predictable, but it's still very interesting as well. Missions now require you to pay attention, for example, which you should have been doing before anyway. The ACTUAL key complaint with this AI switch, as per the hundred posts and dozen or so threads dedicated to it, is "oh noes my drones, make it easy for me to AFK my lvl 4 missions or else I will unsub!" In fact, the majority of complaints are wild and childish tantrums with little in the way of constructive criticism.
Some people are making some valid points. I don't bother countering valid points. Others are just whining. Some are obnoxious enough to put words in other people's mouths and act like they know what was being said in doing so. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
|
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
154
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 01:20:00 -
[321] - Quote
In my experience, the major changes are:
-- Frigate/small NPCs will target drones regularly. -- NPCs will switch to drones if they cannot land reliable hits on you due to range or velocity.
So... the major changes in tactics are to keep a good stock of frigate-killers (usually T1 light drones) that are disposable instead of relying on T2s, then once you've cleared the small NPCs pull out the usual T2 mediums/etc and just wait until you're getting poked by the NPCs to release the hounds.
I've had a little trouble with L4s in a pure drone ship, but not all that much. I've also been considering giving the dominix a rack of small guns to clear the small NPCs without drones instead. Overall not a huge deal. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
582
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 01:55:00 -
[322] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Why is the mission's predictability the only factor for change? Just because it is predictable, does mean it is easy. You are still putting words in my mouth by asserting what it was that I meant, but adapting to a mission is what makes it predictable, because missioning was meant to be a grind, not unlike mining.
First, stop fixating on people putting things in your mouth, nobody wants to put anything in there.
Next, how can a predictable mission not be easy? When you know precisely the total DPS of the room, the incoming damage type, what the trigger is, distances between important objects, distance to the gate, etc. You do realize in most other games, even MMOs, quests are never this clearly defined. For one, quests tend to happen in "normal" space, with normal NPCs. You could be fighting a human NPC, only to have a pack of hungry wolves come at you from the bushes because you didn't see them coming. Or a patrol of other humans. Or both! When was the last time you were doing Angel Extravaganza and suddenly had a bunch of NPCs from Dread Pirate Scarlet show up and start shooting you? Oh, wait, never!
Oh, so AI can attack drones now? Solution? Don't use drones! If you stop and stay very, very quiet for a few seconds, you can actually HEAR most people cross-training into a Tengu right now. No drones? No change. We're back to pre-Retribution old-AI days. You are soloing the mission, there's no drones. Ta-da, you just completely nullified one of the expansion's features! Now, is that 'adapting' or is that 'stupid feature'? Probably both, actually. But the point is, the change was a stupid one.
And why does ANYTHING have to be a grind, where progress is already limited by real-time skill training? lol Seriously dude. Grinding as a mechanic is not needed in EVE at all, skill training takes care of all that. And if I wanted a mind-numbing grind, there's TONS of games out there that do it a whole lot better, from Aion and Tera onwards.
Quote:The AI made missions more interesting - even if they become predictable, they can still be interesting. Driving the Nurburgring is predictable, but it's still very interesting as well. Missions now require you to pay attention, for example, which you should have been doing before anyway. The ACTUAL key complaint with this AI switch, as per the hundred posts and dozen or so threads dedicated to it, is "oh noes my drones, make it easy for me to AFK my lvl 4 missions or else I will unsub!" In fact, the majority of complaints are wild and childish tantrums with little in the way of constructive criticism.
I disagree. Nothing that is predictable can be interesting when done more than once.
Case in point, have you tried to replay the same level of Max Payne 3, followed by replaying a mission of, for example, Far Cry 3? Huge difference. In MP3, the enemies would always be the same, and appear at the same spot, on queue. Turn the corner - guy in top right window with a pistol, shoot him, bottom-right corner doorway, guy with a shotgun, shoot him, crossing the courtyard guy with the SMG, etc. Always 100% predictable. Reload it 100 times, and it'll all be the same. Now, take FC3 - first time you try it, some wild dogs distracted some of the guards, and I knifed two of their snipers in the back before they even knew they were under attack. Second time, a jeep with NPCs came out of nowhere and spotted me and I died. See? Predictable, after you've done it enough times to know it, is never as good as unpredictable. Which is why boss fights in FC3 sucked, compared to FC1 and FC2 - they were quick-time events. You always press the same buttons in proper succession to win. Do it twice, and you probably can do it every other time afterwards with your eyes closed, using just one finger, and still win.
And the whole "AFK my lvl 4 missions" is a cop-out argument and you know it. I hope... Vast majority of lvl 4 missions couldn't be done fully AFK. Or even semi-AFK, as drones would kill triggers and new waves would spawn and target and take out drones. There were places where AFKing in a drone boat did work, but most lvl 4 missions weren't part of those. Some were (off the top of my head, Duo of Death was dead easy AFK mission, 2 targets in total), but interestingly enough those were better done while at the keyboard, to wrap them up quicker. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2236
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 02:00:00 -
[323] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:March rabbit wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Did you train your new sensor compensation skills before you ran the assault? +1 for you for finding me new (possibly useful) skill. however people are right: it won't safe you from damp from 10 NPC ships If this is the assault against serpentis I'm not sure how those would help. Sensor strength doesn't counter damps unless I've been misinformed. Not on it's own, no. But when used in conjunction with sensor boosters and/or amplifiers, you should be able to counter it sufficiently.
Pray tell, how many SEBOs? Because to see any effect I have to bring a dedicated remote SEBO ship because not all fly caldari ships with 1000000 mid slots. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
325
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 02:06:00 -
[324] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Why is the mission's predictability the only factor for change? Just because it is predictable, does mean it is easy. You are still putting words in my mouth by asserting what it was that I meant, but adapting to a mission is what makes it predictable, because missioning was meant to be a grind, not unlike mining. First, stop fixating on people putting things in your mouth, nobody wants to put anything in there.
When you take someone else's words out of context and decide for them what they meant, it is rude and obnoxious. If you don't want me to make a point of your obnoxiousness, then don't be a jerk. Also, at this point, saying things like this is just trolling.
Quote:Next, how can a predictable mission not be easy?
How can a predictable racetrack not be easy? Same thing. Just because something is predictable, doesn't mean it's easy. Doesn't mean it should be easy, either. You know you've got a maths test coming, you know what it's going to be about, and you've studied for it, but it doesn't mean it's going to be easy.
Anyway, I don't care much for reading any more walls of text. I don't care anymore. I'm handling it all just fine, no Tengu, still using drones, and everything else is the delusion and the excuses used to justify a range of cognitive dissonances of people who are just crap at eve and won't admit it or ask for help, or can't handle actually having to, you know, actually play the game for their income. That's my conclusion. Don't like it? I don't care. I'm doing fine. And I've only got 12 mil SP so what does that say about the people that have more? And FYI, people are complaining about the missions being too hard, that is what is going on. Just one more thing, though...
Quote:I disagree. Nothing that is predictable can be interesting when done more than once.
So you're still a virgin then? Nothing wrong with that, but there is plenty of stuff that can still be enjoyed even if it's repetitive and predictable.
You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
325
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 02:07:00 -
[325] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:March rabbit wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Did you train your new sensor compensation skills before you ran the assault? +1 for you for finding me new (possibly useful) skill. however people are right: it won't safe you from damp from 10 NPC ships If this is the assault against serpentis I'm not sure how those would help. Sensor strength doesn't counter damps unless I've been misinformed. Not on it's own, no. But when used in conjunction with sensor boosters and/or amplifiers, you should be able to counter it sufficiently. Pray tell, how many SEBOs? Because to see any effect I have to bring a dedicated remote SEBO ship because not all fly caldari ships with 1000000 mid slots.
There's no point even trying to discuss this with you lot. You've made up your mind without even trying. To me, that says "I hate change" and proves that all you're here for is a big whinge. The quaint over-exaggerations and sarcasm is really just a big tantrum now, which won't end till you get your way, obviously. Have fun with that. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
325
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 02:12:00 -
[326] - Quote
And FYI, if you're using Caldari ships, why don't you make use of your own EWAR and hit the AI with ECM? I do it frequently and get successful jams often. They can't damp you if they can't target you. Try thinking of solutions instead of just whining about any perceived problems. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
582
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 02:20:00 -
[327] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:[How can a predictable racetrack not be easy? Same thing. Just because something is predictable, doesn't mean it's easy. Doesn't mean it should be easy, either. You know you've got a maths test coming, you know what it's going to be about, and you've studied for it, but it doesn't mean it's going to be easy.
Ah, but on the racetrack there's lots of variables. Minute changes in the angle of the track, tiny difference in the car's positioning which affects the grip of the tires on the surface, the wear on the tires between two laps would affect traction, etc., etc. There's tons of tiny little variables.
In EVE, there's no such thing. You step into a mission room, you know what's coming. DPS, damage type, etc. If total DPS of the room is X, and your sustained tank is X+1, it is mathematically impossible for you to die. Which is easily proven by a passively tanked Rattlesnake.
Your math test analogy is also flawed, if you know not only the subject, but the EXACT problem you'll be given. So that you can do it before the test, and come in with ready answers, just input those into the answer sheet (if multiple choice) and walk out 5 minutes later.
Quote:Quote:I disagree. Nothing that is predictable can be interesting when done more than once. So you're still a virgin then? Nothing wrong with that, but there is plenty of stuff that can still be enjoyed even if it's repetitive and predictable.
That...makes no sense whatsoever.
But if you follow what I said above about racetrack, there's uncontrollable variations that's what make it interesting even if repeated more than once. Have you seen Jurassic Park, where Malcolm explains the Chaos Theory by putting a drop of water on Ellie's hand and asking which way it'll go? And each time it takes a different path? Well, unfortunately EVE missions aren't dynamic like Guild Wars 2, or happen in the normal game space like WoW. They are instanced, and tightly controlled. And always, always the same. As such, replay value is nonexistent. It gets repetitive. Repetitive gets to be boring when it is easy.
You have 13 mil SP and doing just fine? Imagine how much easier it is for someone with 100 mil SP! Imagine how boring it is to them, after they've been doing the same mission for 8 years!? It is 8 years, isn't it? I'm pretty sure there were no missions at launch, they came later? I'm actually having trouble remembering. But it's been SAME bloody NPCs, over and over and over, always trying the same thing, over and over. Do you know what the definition of insanity is? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2236
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 02:30:00 -
[328] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote: There's no point even trying to discuss this with you lot. You've made up your mind without even trying. To me, that says "I hate change" and proves that all you're here for is a big whinge. The quaint over-exaggerations and sarcasm is really just a big tantrum now, which won't end till you get your way, obviously. Have fun with that.
Hey you wasted 100 pages across multiple forums rebutting people who did not even ask your opinion, and for once somebody asks you a straight question you surrender?
Basic Maelstrom with 800mm, XL shield booster and hardeners, all low slots busy with gyrostabs / tracking enhancers (else it won't hit anything). Where the heck do I put the 2-3 SEBOs needed for the damp missions? Plus possibly an EWAR to aggro the frigates of course.
Do I need to make a little drawing? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
325
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 02:33:00 -
[329] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Have you seen Jurassic Park, where Malcolm explains the Chaos Theory by putting a drop of water on Ellie's hand and asking which way it'll go? And each time it takes a different path?
I don't need a movie to tell me about the Chaos Theory. Trust me, when you've driven a racetrack a few dozen times, it doesn't matter what variables apply, it becomes predictable, because you get used to the variables - you adapt. I've driven QLD Raceway and Lakeside Raceway so many times that I can tell you exactly what speed and position you need to be on for each corner, depending on weather conditions, to take it with maximum efficiency. And before you say "ah but the changing weather keeps it interesting." No, the racing keeps it interesting. When you get used to the track after experiencing all the variables, particularly weather, it is still very predictable. And because most racetracks have localised climate systems, the weather rarely changes that much during race season anyway. The two I've driven are frequently dry and hot. Whereas the UK's Silverstone is more often cold and wet.
Chaos theory only applies where there is sensitive dependence on initial conditions. The key word in that concept is "sensitive". For example, if you've never driven Silverstone in the wet before, then you won't know what to expect. A couple of laps after the initial conditions, though, and you'll get used to it, thus Silverstone in the wet is no longer unpredictable. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
325
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 02:36:00 -
[330] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote: There's no point even trying to discuss this with you lot. You've made up your mind without even trying. To me, that says "I hate change" and proves that all you're here for is a big whinge. The quaint over-exaggerations and sarcasm is really just a big tantrum now, which won't end till you get your way, obviously. Have fun with that.
Hey you wasted 100 pages across multiple forums rebutting people who did not even ask your opinion, and for once somebody asks you a straight question you surrender? Basic Maelstrom with 800mm, XL shield booster and hardeners, all low slots busy with gyrostabs / tracking enhancers (else it won't hit anything). Where the heck do I put the 2-3 SEBOs needed for the damp missions? Plus possibly an EWAR to aggro the frigates of course. Do I need to make a little drawing?
There you go with your silly exaggerations again. Please link all 100 pages on which I've appeared in this thread, and used the entire page. Thanks. While you're at it.... I don't remember anyone asking for your opinion, either, yet you felt free to express it. Why should the same standards not apply to everyone? I'm not surrendering, honestly, but it would be more productive of me to tell all this to a brick wall. So I'm bowing out, because I have better things to do with my time than waste it on pubbies.
Also, I saw someone mentioning fitting smaller guns and smaller T1 drones earlier, as I've done in the past - I hear they hit small targets just fine.
Also, if you want to draw me a picture, that would be awesome. No one has drawn me pictures since kindergarten... it would be kinda nostalgic.
Honestly, it would be nice to see this thread get locked, because it's just not going anywhere and people obviously just don't like change or trying new things. You aren't going to learn anything, you don't really want to learn anything, you just want it to be easy again. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
|
ArmyOfMe
NorCorp Security Tribal Band
122
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 02:45:00 -
[331] - Quote
starbelt stacy wrote: meanwhile back in reality.......
cough, you do realise we're talking about a spaceship game right Suleiman Shouaa> And you still think you're taking risks? NightmareX> I do. I take risks every day. But i do whatever i can to make sure i'm not ending up in a loss.
|
Mund Richard
27
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 02:56:00 -
[332] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Also, I saw someone mentioning fitting smaller guns and smaller T1 drones earlier, as I've done in the past - I hear they hit small targets just fine. Smaller guns, to which the ship has no bonus to. Smaller guns, that make the dps drop like an anvil in the ocean. Smaller guns, that make the isk efficiency so bad, you would be better off with 8 mining turrets hunting for veldspar.
Remiel Pollard wrote:Also, if you want to draw me a picture, that would be awesome. No one has drawn me pictures since kindergarten... it would be kinda nostalgic. While he/she does that, could you post a viable T1 missioning ship with 2-3 SeBos and/or EWAR that regularly hit enough targets to nulify/dampen the incoming dampening to where you can in fact target a dampening BS orbiting at 50km, or just a cruiser orbiting at 30?
Remiel Pollard wrote:Honestly, it would be nice to see this thread get locked, because it's just not going anywhere and people obviously just don't like change or trying new things. You aren't going to learn anything, you don't really want to learn anything, you just want it to be easy again. I'm fairly convinced it's doable now as well as far the AI goes. If there is one point I agree with, is that folk need to learn new things and try and improve every once in a while. Now, with the EWAR BUG, the full room agro BUG, and the rest, they make learning like sandpaper instead of lube. And naturally missions being redone to be like the sleeper WH (amount of enemies, rewards) and not just bolt the AI to them like minmatar bolt their ships together and then stick guns to them with duct tape... that would have been nice.
Remiel Pollard wrote:So I'm bowing out, because I have better things to do with my time than waste it on pubbies. Most excellent! Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
325
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 02:59:00 -
[333] - Quote
You are just discarding potential solutions without even trying them. DPS is pointless if you can't hit anything, right? What about the alpha? And you really think they're bugs? I suppose it is a common excuse used by people who fail at games: "well obviously the game's bugged if I can't do it."
Derp.
I see you're still bounty-free, Mund. Have 10 mil on me for being no different from anyone else complaining-instead-of-doing. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
baltec1
Bat Country
3210
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 03:10:00 -
[334] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:You are just discarding potential solutions without even trying them. DPS is pointless if you can't hit anything, right? What about the alpha? And you really think they're bugs? I suppose it is a common excuse used by people who fail at games: "well obviously the game's bugged if I can't do it."
Derp.
I see you're still bounty-free, Mund. Have 10 mil on me for being no different from anyone else complaining-instead-of-doing. Welcome to miners 11 months ago. Makes me wonder how hard these people would cry if we ever decided to run a gank campain on them. I am ever more tempted to go number crunching to see if we could turn a profit on mission boats. |
Mund Richard
27
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 03:12:00 -
[335] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:You are just discarding potential solutions without even trying them. DPS is pointless if you can't hit anything, right? What about the alpha? And you really think they're bugs? I suppose it is a common excuse used by people who fail at games: "well obviously the game's bugged if I can't do it."
Derp.
I see you're still bounty-free, Mund. Have 10 mil on me for being no different from anyone else complaining-instead-of-doing. I think they are bugs, because CCP called them such.
DPS is pointless if they can't hit anything. Lowering your dps so much, that you'd get more isk out of an L3 for less hassle... Well, not the brightest idea.
The ECM idea of yours I assume is either trolling, or just comes from experiance against nullsec sites instead of HiSec missions. There are more opponents using EWAR than you have midslots to fit with ECM. The SeBo idea is in all fairness something worth considering. The issue is, that each NPC damp is stronger than one of your SeBos, and somehow their stacking penalty doesn't seem to be as penalized as yours. It's the way the math works out. However, fitting a SeBo is most assuredly better than an empty Med Slot.
"well obviously the game's bugged if I can't do it." I on my part worked out how to adapt to the rats I farm and their new behavior just fine, even posted about it in a few threads I think, thank you for not hinting at anything else.
And a big thank you for the bounty, I feel a lot more special now.
Quote: I suppose it is a common excuse used by people who fail at games Says the person who claimed even after I posted it ain't so, that sensor compensation skills help at dampening. 4/10, got me reply multiple times, but didn't make me laugh like some better ones out here, maybe that's why you couldn't/didn't stay in Austrollia?
I wonder if your getting so personal helps you get the thread locked? Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
325
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 03:16:00 -
[336] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:You are just discarding potential solutions without even trying them. DPS is pointless if you can't hit anything, right? What about the alpha? And you really think they're bugs? I suppose it is a common excuse used by people who fail at games: "well obviously the game's bugged if I can't do it."
Derp.
I see you're still bounty-free, Mund. Have 10 mil on me for being no different from anyone else complaining-instead-of-doing. I think they are bugs, because CCP called them such. DPS is pointless if they can't hit anything. Lowering your dps so much, that you'd get more isk out of an L3 for less hassle... Well, not the brightest idea. The ECM idea of yours I assume is either trolling, or just comes from experiance against nullsec sites instead of HiSec missions. There are more opponents using EWAR than you have midslots to fit with ECM. The SeBo idea is in all fairness something worth considering. The issue is, that each NPC damp is stronger than one of your SeBos, and somehow their stacking penalty doesn't seem to be as penalized as yours. It's the way the math works out. However, fitting a SeBo is most assuredly better than an empty Med Slot. "well obviously the game's bugged if I can't do it." I on my part worked out how to adapt to the rats I farm and their new behavior just fine, even posted about it in a few threads I think, thank you for not hinting at anything else. And a big thank you for the bounty, I feel a lot more special now. Quote: I suppose it is a common excuse used by people who fail at games Says the person who claimed even after I posted it ain't so, that sensor compensation skills help at dampening. 4/10, got me reply multiple times, but didn't make me laugh like some better ones out here, maybe that's why you couldn't/didn't stay in Austrollia? I wonder if your getting so personal helps you get the thread locked?
Lol, I left Austrollia because I got a better offer. Waiting for it to process at the moment. Now I know what your problem is, though - you like to jump to conclusions before you've established the facts. Just like declaring "it won't work" before you've even tried it.
Oh, and by the way, it's not a big bounty. 10 mil is pittance, and all you're really worth. You should see mine You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Kaylyis
No One Loves You Inc. LockJaw Inc.
51
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 03:35:00 -
[337] - Quote
I'll be adapting by filling drone bay with light drones in stupid amounts, since, you know... I only use drones on frigs anyway. hitting cruisers in a battleship's usually fairly easy.
|
Mund Richard
27
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 03:45:00 -
[338] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Lol, I left Austrollia because I got a better offer. Waiting for it to process at the moment. Now I know what your problem is, though - you like to jump to conclusions before you've established the facts. Just like declaring "it won't work" before you've even tried it. I'm glad we both agree that you are a troll.
About declaring "it won't work"... You didn't constructively reply to my ECM comment, here's a more in depth commentery on why SeBos won't reliably work all the time (ignoring the fact of how many slots it costs):
I have a screenshot, on which my Domi has a locking range of ~9km, and a sensor resolution of 12mn (just for comparison, a Ragnarok Titan has 50 before skills, and gets it up to 62, which is over 5 times as much...). Fitting one range-scripted SeBos, I'd get something like 15km, and with another one 23km, but still keep the 12mn resolution (lock time of well over a minute on frigates if I recall correctly). The battleship class rat that does this damp stay out at 50km orbit.
I hastily jump to conclusions saying it wouldn't work. Please prove me wrong with a video made after the change, with one toon not in fleet, and no player on grid, with circumstances like the one I described. Oh, and it should be a fit that still makes sense as opposed to running level 3 missions with a hilariously overganked ASB Hurricane or Oracle or the like. Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
baltec1
Bat Country
3210
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 03:52:00 -
[339] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Lol, I left Austrollia because I got a better offer. Waiting for it to process at the moment. Now I know what your problem is, though - you like to jump to conclusions before you've established the facts. Just like declaring "it won't work" before you've even tried it. I'm glad we both agree that you are a troll. About declaring "it won't work"... You didn't constructively reply to my ECM comment, here's a more in depth commentery on why SeBos won't reliably work all the time (ignoring the fact of how many slots it costs): I have a screenshot, on which my Domi has a locking range of ~9km, and a sensor resolution of 12mn (just for comparison, a Ragnarok Titan has 50 before skills, and gets it up to 62, which is over 5 times as much...). Fitting one range-scripted SeBo, I'd get something like 15km, and with another one 23km, but still keep the 12mn resolution (lock time of well over a minute on frigates if I recall correctly). ... There were less than half of the dampening cruisers (all the same name) applying their damps to me at the screenshot's taking... I hastily jump to conclusions saying it wouldn't work. Please prove me wrong with a video made after the change, with one toon not in fleet, and no player on grid, with circumstances like the one I described. Oh, and it should be a fit that still makes sense as opposed to running level 3 missions with a hilariously overganked ASB Hurricane or Oracle or the like. Use blasters. A protus will most likely be ideal. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
327
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 04:04:00 -
[340] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Lol, I left Austrollia because I got a better offer. Waiting for it to process at the moment. Now I know what your problem is, though - you like to jump to conclusions before you've established the facts. Just like declaring "it won't work" before you've even tried it. I'm glad we both agree that you are a troll.
Did I say that? I don't remember saying that. Must be another one of your delusions where you tell people what they were saying and agreeing with. I'm sure it works just fine in your head, using it as a justification for your ignorance and self-assured narcissism, but out here in the real world, you don't get to decide what other people are saying or agreeing with. All you're demonstrating is that you're either a troll yourself, or too stupid to understand the meaning in someone else's words.
I've already asked you to stop putting words in my mouth. Your persistence in doing so seems to be an attempt to get a reaction out of me, therefore I think you'll find it is you who is trolling.
Now, you're welcome to try the things suggested to you (Baltec's is a good one) or continue to complain. The ball's in your court how you proceed. But the AI has been set up this way for a few reasons, not the least of which was the exasperant isk generation from people soloing level 4s in high sec. The original solution was to move them out of high sec altogether. You should be relieved that lvl4s stayed in high sec, and counting your fortunes instead of whining about the compromise that was made instead to keep them in high sec and simultaneously reduce the isk generation that was taking place.
Best solution: start running level 4s in small fleets. Me and a mate have been doing it in pairs. Not gonna give you the details, because you're obviously not actually willing to try anything different, but needless to say we have worked out how to do it with little effort every time, just two of us. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
|
Mund Richard
27
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 04:13:00 -
[341] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Now, you're welcome to try the things suggested to you (Baltec's is a good one) or continue to complain. The ball's in your court how you proceed. But the AI has been set up this way for a few reasons, not the least of which was the exasperant isk generation from people soloing level 4s in high sec. The original solution was to move them out of high sec altogether. You should be relieved that lvl4s stayed in high sec, and counting your fortunes instead of whining about the compromise that was made instead to keep them in high sec and simultaneously reduce the isk generation that was taking place.
Best solution: start running level 4s in small fleets. Me and a mate have been doing it in pairs. Not gonna give you the details, because you're obviously not actually willing to try anything different, but needless to say we have worked out how to do it with little effort every time, just two of us. No proteus, no tengu, not even any T2. And we still use drones which with our method, hardly ever even take aggro. As I've said before, I don't need to try anything, solved my problems just fine.
Baltec's one is indeed good, except that it ain't something new players can get quickly into. Plus, loosing such a ship so early in your career would be brutal I'd imagine. Don't fly what you cannot afford to loose, ect... And I'd like to think level fours are the last stepping stone you take, before going onwards to L5 in groups, WH, or low/nullsec. At least they used to be.
"exasperant isk generation from people soloing level 4s in high sec" - funny enough, I make a lot more isk a lot easier now. Ofc not going level 4s in hisec. Hence I never quite saw the problem with them, but ah well.
Did CCP really consider moving out L4s out of hisec? Now that is new to me. Got any links?
Small fleet L4: Might be good, not sure if it's worth the time, totally sure it's not worth my time, alone or in fleet.
T1 ships with drones in small fleet that works? Too bad you won't give any details :( Coincidentally if that setup is TWO dominixes, it near-perfectly solves any annoying NPC EWAR as well, as they tend to focus fire (which makes sense), you can assign sentries to the other player, and then he will have the firepower of 10. Add to that a remote repair in the highs, 5 guns, a few drone damage amplifiers, and you have a mean spider domi pakage. Although, once you have it down well, you could just move on to WH, up to C5 as well if you get a few friends more.
But if it's something else I'm curious nontheless, I bet something nice and concrete could help some in this thread quite a bit more than just an idea of using jammers on an unbonused hull. Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
329
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 04:20:00 -
[342] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Plus, loosing such a ship so early in your career would be brutal I'd imagine.
Maybe if you tightened it first...
Oh, you meant "losing". Bounty increased for bad spelling.
FYI, it's still not as high as mine
FYI, I'll give you a hint, and it's not two Domis. The new AI prefers to go after ships of the same size, so when a solo BS launches drones, the AI frigates will prefer them of the BS. Guess what you can run with having two ships in the fleet? You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
baltec1
Bat Country
3218
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 04:20:00 -
[343] - Quote
New players shouldnt be trying to do lvl 4s and getting into a t3 is as long as getting into a battleship. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
400
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 04:27:00 -
[344] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:...getting into a t3 is as long as getting into a battleship. While getting good performance out of each would take similar amounts of time, going strain from nothing to minimum BS and relevant mods seems it would take less time. Especially since the BS minimal plan doesn't require a single lvl 5 skill. The proteus requires several. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2238
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 08:07:00 -
[345] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Thanks. While you're at it.... I don't remember anyone asking for your opinion, either, yet you felt free to express it. Why should the same standards not apply to everyone
It's you not me who kept talking down people on the official *feedback* thread. *Their* opinion was asked and you - certainly not a developer - kept downplaying what they said and so on. This is also clearly a *feedback* thread, where once again people express their concerns to the developer (who else can look at drones AI?) and you once again go with the "lol hharden up" / "lol for me it's so easy" comments.
They are neither needed nor - after so much negativity of yours against the other players - not welcome.
Remiel Pollard wrote: Honestly, it would be nice to see this thread get locked, because it's just not going anywhere and people obviously just don't like change or trying new things. You aren't going to learn anything, you don't really want to learn anything, you just want it to be easy again.
Yes let's lock whatever is not a yes man product. It's almost like forums existed to also discuss controversial stuff and had rules that I don't see being broken to justify a lock. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
100
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 08:09:00 -
[346] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:baltec1 wrote:...getting into a t3 is as long as getting into a battleship. While getting good performance out of each would take similar amounts of time, going strain from nothing to minimum BS and relevant mods seems it would take less time. Especially since the BS minimal plan doesn't require a single lvl 5 skill. The proteus requires several.
There's also a cost factor. You can fit a T1 BS for a few hundred million. A T3, not so much and if you're locked into level 3s, you can pretty much write that T3 off any time soon.
However, since CCP have said that the full room aggro is a bug, this can hopefully go to its deathbed (quietly and quickly).
Since it's a bug it rather renders my request for a video moot since it wont last, however it would still be amusing to see just how fast a T1 BS dies in that mission.
And finally, @Remiel Pollard. Your 'solutions' are comedy gold.
ECM isn't an option when you cant lock. SeBos aren't an option when the incoming DPS can already melt a HUGE tank - the DPS in there is higher than the angel bonus room. Excessive for a first room in a regular mission I think most will agree. And my favorite one that is worth repeating - train a skill which has NOTHING to do with the problem at hand. Ingenious. You may as well have said to train mining skills.
The overall thing about advice is, if you've not done it you should probably not be so condescending to people who are struggling with the issue at hand. This is especially the case when your suggestions would have no impact on the issue whatsoever, yet you still manage to post it in a way which implies somehow the other people are idiots.
Pontificating dodgy/plainly useless advice whilst implying other people are scrubs is foolish and also a contributing factor as to why people respond badly to you. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
466
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 08:13:00 -
[347] - Quote
I have yet to see a fit from any of these pros that find the new AI so easy. Please also detail which missions you used them in.
A You Tube video of you running one of the missions would also be a nice touch. Otherwise, your words are utterly meaningless. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2238
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 08:15:00 -
[348] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:
Small fleet L4: Might be good, not sure if it's worth the time, totally sure it's not worth my time, alone or in fleet.
No, it's not good. Why? Because at this point the ISK / hour drops towards mining ISK / hour. That is an AFK-ish profession that does not even require to grind any standings or to train a fraction of the combat skills / tiers of hulls skills etc. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2238
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 08:18:00 -
[349] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:I have yet to see a fit from any of these pros that find the new AI so easy. Please also detail which missions you used them in.
A You Tube video of you running one of the missions would also be a nice touch. Otherwise, your words are utterly meaningless.
Yes a solo made, simple full aggro room mission with the standard 6 damps elite NPCs, done in Maelstrom (a quite used mission boat), just to show how it's done. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
466
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 08:24:00 -
[350] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:I have yet to see a fit from any of these pros that find the new AI so easy. Please also detail which missions you used them in.
A You Tube video of you running one of the missions would also be a nice touch. Otherwise, your words are utterly meaningless. Yes a solo made, simple full aggro room mission with the standard 6 damps elite NPCs, done in Maelstrom (a quite used mission boat), just to show how it's done.
I would also like to see an Ishtar in the WC room, say the Angel 2nd room. I personally have flown the Ishtar with some success in some of the easier L4's, like Damsel in Distress, and Mordus Headhunters Part 1. But only because I tested like mad this disastrous AI on Duality and figured out all the tricks.
But there is no way I am going near the WC missions, The Assault series, or the Blockade Series.
And the best part that no one has even mentioned: The Epic Arcs. I soloed the Gallente version some months ago in an Ishtar, and it damn near killed me with stress.
I can't even fathom doing it now, with any ship. |
|
baltec1
Bat Country
3225
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 08:25:00 -
[351] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:I have yet to see a fit from any of these pros that find the new AI so easy.
Already gave you plenty of ships, its up to you to fit them correctly. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
466
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 08:27:00 -
[352] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:I have yet to see a fit from any of these pros that find the new AI so easy. Please also detail which missions you used them in.
A You Tube video of you running one of the missions would also be a nice touch. Otherwise, your words are utterly meaningless. Yes a solo made, simple full aggro room mission with the standard 6 damps elite NPCs, done in Maelstrom (a quite used mission boat), just to show how it's done.
In fact, I would like to start a thread requesting THE DEV's make a video showing it done, but besides they will simply do it in dev god-boat, and of course, the ISD would shut down the thread as soon as it went up. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
466
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 08:28:00 -
[353] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:I have yet to see a fit from any of these pros that find the new AI so easy.
Already gave you plenty of ships, its up to you to fit them correctly.
Of course you have. Like I said, your words are meaningless.
You like to grief as much on these forums as you like to grief in Uedama. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
332
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 08:33:00 -
[354] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Mund Richard wrote:
Small fleet L4: Might be good, not sure if it's worth the time, totally sure it's not worth my time, alone or in fleet.
No, it's not good. Why? Because at this point the ISK / hour drops towards mining ISK / hour. That is an AFK-ish profession that does not even require to grind any standings or to train a fraction of the combat skills / tiers of hulls skills etc.
If you're only in it for the ISK, then you're playing the wrong game. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe Against ALL Authorities
589
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 08:39:00 -
[355] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Herp derp derp I'm an idiot
Oh just give it rest and troll somewhere else. Not like you have any credibility when you talk about bring small guns to L4s as a 'solution'.
So CCP, when will we hear from you ? Will your 'solution' be to just put your head in the sand and go 'NANANANANANANA I can't hear my paying customers complain so all is fine in fairyland'.
FIRE FRIENDSHIP TORPEDOES ! Louis's epic skill guide v1.1 |
baltec1
Bat Country
3225
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 08:39:00 -
[356] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Of course you have. Like I said, your words are meaningless.
You like to grief as much on these forums as you like to grief in Uedama.
You have some evidence of griefing going on in Uedama? |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
332
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 08:40:00 -
[357] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
It's you not me who kept talking down people on the official *feedback* thread. *Their* opinion was asked and you - certainly not a developer - kept downplaying what they said and so on. This is also clearly a *feedback* thread, where once again people express their concerns to the developer (who else can look at drones AI?) and you once again go with the "lol hharden up" / "lol for me it's so easy" comments.
They are neither needed nor - after so much negativity of yours against the other players - not welcome.
Lol. Yeah, nobody likes criticism, I get it. The difference between people who are willing to learn and those who aren't (like yourself) is that people who are willing to learn will consider criticism and check it for credibility before rejecting it outright.
Additionally, this being a second feedback thread is a reason in itself to have it locked. Why do we need two? You said it yourself, there's a feedback thread in existence.
If you don't like what I have to say, you have the option to ignore it as much as I have the right to say it, so just because you don't like my opinion doesn't mean I can't, or won't, offer it. Those that have done nothing but whine have received my ridicule as it is warranted, such as yourself. Those that have demonstrated a genuine desire to adapt have received genuine assistance, and found it useful. So don't tell me that my ideas, or Baltec's, are wrong just because it means changing a little, or because you're too lazy to try it, because that desire for everything to remain the same, stagnant and old, is only a sign that this shake up was sorely needed.
I would suggest you just start dealing with it, or unsub, because I really doubt they're doing anything to the AI except weeding out genuine bugs, and as far as I can tell, the only known bug is one that makes the AI even easier than it should be, so good luck when they fix that. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
479
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 08:47:00 -
[358] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Mund Richard wrote:
Small fleet L4: Might be good, not sure if it's worth the time, totally sure it's not worth my time, alone or in fleet.
No, it's not good. Why? Because at this point the ISK / hour drops towards mining ISK / hour. That is an AFK-ish profession that does not even require to grind any standings or to train a fraction of the combat skills / tiers of hulls skills etc. If you're only in it for the ISK, then you're playing the wrong game.
Some people actually like(d) doing missions. We all have to make isk somehow. The risk-reward ratio of Lv4's right now is totally wrong.
Mining is more profitable for much less risk. This is not about you hating mission runners, it's about a game mechanic that is broken. The fun factor of missions was not very high before the patch, now it is near 0. If they wanted to nerf missionincome they could have just decreased rat bounties. Reducing the fun of a large part of your subscriber base is not very smart imo.
Note: Contrary to what most people claim, lv4's are hardly the most profitable highsec pve content. As always, this change will hit new players more than the veterans. Scaring new players from the game is not a good business strategy. Ungi ma+¦urinn ++ekkir reglurnar, en gamli ma+¦urinn ++ekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions. |
|
ISD TYPE40
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3302
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 08:50:00 -
[359] - Quote
I haven't deleted any posts in this thread, instead I would ask you all to remember that there are rules that should be followed when posting on these forums.
Forum Rules wrote:
4. Be respectful of others at all times.
The purpose of the forum is to provide a platform for the exchange of ideas. Occasionally, there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Be courteous when disagreeing with others. It is possible to disagree without being insulting.
5. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a long-winded, redundant post, often filled with angry, non-constructive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and helpful in the development of the game, but rants are disruptive and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise, clear manner and avoid going off on rambling tangents.
6. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another. Text of this nature is not beneficial to the community spirit and will not be tolerated. Corporation, faction and alliance members and other players are cautioned to avoid allowing GÇ£in characterGÇ¥ disputes from becoming "out of character" personal attacks. The game is designed for role-playing and/or portraying a role and it is sometimes easy for tempers to flare when the lines between the virtual world and the real world are crossed. Please keep in-game disputes in the game and off the forum unless it is clearly a mutual, in-character exchange.
7. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is the word used to describe a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players. Posts of this nature are disruptive and do not contribute to the sense of community we want for our forums.
I would ask you all to stay on topic and avoid personal attacks and troll posting. This is a good discussion thread and it would be beneficial to us all for it to stay within the rules - ISD Type40. ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
335
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 09:19:00 -
[360] - Quote
DeBingJos wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Mund Richard wrote:
Small fleet L4: Might be good, not sure if it's worth the time, totally sure it's not worth my time, alone or in fleet.
No, it's not good. Why? Because at this point the ISK / hour drops towards mining ISK / hour. That is an AFK-ish profession that does not even require to grind any standings or to train a fraction of the combat skills / tiers of hulls skills etc. If you're only in it for the ISK, then you're playing the wrong game. Some people actually like(d) doing missions. We all have to make isk somehow. The risk-reward ratio of Lv4's right now is totally wrong. Mining is more profitable for much less risk. This is not about you hating mission runners, it's about a game mechanic that is broken. The fun factor of missions was not very high before the patch, now it is near 0. If they wanted to nerf mission income they could have just decreased rat bounties. Reducing the fun of a large part of your subscriber base is not very smart imo. Note: Contrary to what most people claim, lv4's are hardly the most profitable highsec pve content. As always, this change will hit new players more than the veterans. Scaring new players from the game is not a good business strategy.
I don't hate anyone, and I've got nothing against mission runners, or even miners. I dabble in both professions... I'm a bit of a dallier when it comes to this game. What I have a problem with, however, is people complaining about what they perceive to be a problem when the fact is everything is working as intended and people just don't like change.
I don't hate those people, either. But I laugh at their tears frequently. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
|
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
335
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 09:24:00 -
[361] - Quote
Louis deGuerre wrote:Herp derp derp I'm an idiot
See what I did there? This is a silly game, though. Not sure what teh rules are... but I'm pretty sure I win. Game over
I keep getting accused of trolling, while simultaneously being trolled.... but just because you can't be bothered trying to understand my point and just want to shove your own complaints and make your own demands doesn't mean I'm trolling. If you don't like what I have to say, then say so, or offer a valid counter argument. There are plenty of legitimate complaints with good arguments on this thread that I haven't bothered even trying to refute, but "stop trolling" is not a counter argument to anything I've said. In fact, it's nothing but a strawman and a troll by its very nature.
You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
480
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 09:31:00 -
[362] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:DeBingJos wrote:balblabla from me I don't hate anyone, and I've got nothing against mission runners, or even miners. I dabble in both professions... I'm a bit of a dallier when it comes to this game. What I have a problem with, however, is people complaining about what they perceive to be a problem when the fact is everything is working as intended and people just don't like change. I don't hate those people, either. But I laugh at their tears frequently.
Then tell me: is the risk vs reward for lv4's ok now? Why should a new player do them instead of mining? Give me some reasons..
I used to take some new players that needed isk into lv4's . That is not possible anymore.
What is the added value of the new system? Ungi ma+¦urinn ++ekkir reglurnar, en gamli ma+¦urinn ++ekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
101
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 09:46:00 -
[363] - Quote
DeBingJos wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:DeBingJos wrote:balblabla from me I don't hate anyone, and I've got nothing against mission runners, or even miners. I dabble in both professions... I'm a bit of a dallier when it comes to this game. What I have a problem with, however, is people complaining about what they perceive to be a problem when the fact is everything is working as intended and people just don't like change. I don't hate those people, either. But I laugh at their tears frequently. Then tell me: is the risk vs reward for lv4's ok now? Why should a new player do them instead of mining? Give me some reasons.. I used to take some new players that needed isk into lv4's . That is not possible anymore. What is the added value of the new system?
Remember the full room DIE DIE DIE problem is a (confirmed) bug, not design.
|
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
480
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 09:50:00 -
[364] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:DeBingJos wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:DeBingJos wrote:balblabla from me I don't hate anyone, and I've got nothing against mission runners, or even miners. I dabble in both professions... I'm a bit of a dallier when it comes to this game. What I have a problem with, however, is people complaining about what they perceive to be a problem when the fact is everything is working as intended and people just don't like change. I don't hate those people, either. But I laugh at their tears frequently. Then tell me: is the risk vs reward for lv4's ok now? Why should a new player do them instead of mining? Give me some reasons.. I used to take some new players that needed isk into lv4's . That is not possible anymore. What is the added value of the new system? Remember the full room DIE DIE DIE problem is a (confirmed) bug, not design.
I agree that solving this bug will solve most of the problems with lv4's. Lets hope it won't take months before the issue is addressed.
On a sidenote: I'm all for reducing the number of rats and make missions more pvp-like. (Keep the rewards the same) Ungi ma+¦urinn ++ekkir reglurnar, en gamli ma+¦urinn ++ekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
335
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 10:10:00 -
[365] - Quote
DeBingJos wrote: Then tell me: is the risk vs reward for lv4's ok now? Why should a new player do them instead of mining? Give me some reasons..
Why should a player do anything in this game except for what they enjoy? If you're sole purpose is to make isk, then it shouldn't matter how you do it, if what you enjoy is making isk. However, if it's too much of a chore, then obviously you're not enjoying yourself, so you should find something else to do. Unsub if you have to and find another game, but a lot of people threatening to do so are failing to realise that they are in a minority and nobody really cares.
The isk/reward ration for level 4s is, imo, better balanced now, but still a little weighty on the reward side. You might not have noticed this, but the select few who are extraneously vocal about how "hard" level fours are now are also in a minority. For the majority, level 4 missions haven't changed. My old corp, as carebear as they are, do quite well running level 4s. I run them with a mate with a squad setup we find quite effective at encouraging the AI not to aggro the drones. In short, we've had no worries, and we're still making plenty of isk. But that's not why I run level 4s. I run them because I enjoy shooting stuff. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2243
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 10:16:00 -
[366] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Additionally, this being a second feedback thread is a reason in itself to have it locked. Why do we need two? You said it yourself, there's a feedback thread in existence.
Apply for a GM position then, because someone who is appointeed for it (ISD) just confirmed that this thread is allright to exist.
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Lol. Yeah, nobody likes criticism, I get it. The difference between people who are willing to learn and those who aren't (like yourself) is that people who are willing to learn will consider criticism and check it for credibility before rejecting it outright.
1) I am willing to learn, I stated a simple scenario so you can show how it's done. No "BLAH BLAH look how I am though and good" but a simple, factual example.
2) Credibility is earned, not due. You'll get credibility once you put money where your mouth talks. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
335
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 10:26:00 -
[367] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Credibility is earned, not due. You'll get credibility once you put money where your mouth talks.
And you expect me to take you as credible under the same conditions?
I've given you a heap of suggestions, and you've rejected them all outright. I'm pretty sure all you want is something to complain about. You're not interested in discussion whether it's credible or not, because my suggestions aren't the only ones you've outright rejected without even trying them out for yourself.
Don't talk to me about who's "credible" until you can prove your own credibility, as well. I have not once questioned your credibility, only you're willingness to learn. You keep claiming you are willing to learn? Prove it by trying out what's been suggested to you before outright rejecting the idea. I have a few other things we've tried and found very successful but been holding back for people who are actually willing to listen. You want me to share a fit? Why don't you at least pretend you're half interested in one first. Why don't you try one for yourself first, actually LOOK half competent instead of getting those that are competent to do it for you. No, you can't have my fits, and you can't have my better ideas until you actually come across as willing to try them. I won't waste my best material on ignorance. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2244
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 10:40:00 -
[368] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:
And you expect me to take you as credible under the same conditions?
I've given you a heap of suggestions, and you've rejected them all outright. I'm pretty sure all you want is something to complain about. You're not interested in discussion whether it's credible or not, because my suggestions aren't the only ones you've outright rejected without even trying them out for yourself.
Given *me* an heap of suggestions? I asked for *1* suggestion, that is how to implement YOUR suggestion of using SEBOs and EWAR (said in another post, for drones) in a 800mm Maelstrom.
I am all ears. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
335
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 10:44:00 -
[369] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:
And you expect me to take you as credible under the same conditions?
I've given you a heap of suggestions, and you've rejected them all outright. I'm pretty sure all you want is something to complain about. You're not interested in discussion whether it's credible or not, because my suggestions aren't the only ones you've outright rejected without even trying them out for yourself.
Given *me* an heap of suggestions? I asked for *1* suggestion, that is how to implement YOUR suggestion of using SEBOs and EWAR (said in another post, for drones) in a 800mm Maelstrom. I am all ears.
And yet you outright rejected a half dozen suggestions. To get to a half dozen, you first have to go through 1, and you rejected the first one, so you were given more.
Go figure it out yourself. I don't care about your little problems. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2244
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 10:53:00 -
[370] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:
And you expect me to take you as credible under the same conditions?
I've given you a heap of suggestions, and you've rejected them all outright. I'm pretty sure all you want is something to complain about. You're not interested in discussion whether it's credible or not, because my suggestions aren't the only ones you've outright rejected without even trying them out for yourself.
Given *me* an heap of suggestions? I asked for *1* suggestion, that is how to implement YOUR suggestion of using SEBOs and EWAR (said in another post, for drones) in a 800mm Maelstrom. I am all ears. And yet you outright rejected a half dozen suggestions. To get to a half dozen, you first have to go through 1, and you rejected the first one, so you were given more. Go figure it out yourself. I don't care about your little problems.
Since I started asking for a precise, *one* thing 1 day ago, it's hard to believe you gave "half a dozen".
I take it, you have nothing of substance for a solo, 800mm AC Maelstrom pilot who wants to implement your own SEBO + EWAR suggestions. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
2222
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 10:57:00 -
[371] - Quote
DeBingJos wrote:Then tell me: is the risk vs reward for lv4's ok now? Why should a new player do them instead of mining? Give me some reasons..
I used to take some new players that needed isk into lv4's . That is not possible anymore.
I have been running missions with three pilots: Huginn, Oracle, Rattlesnake. The Oracle has about 960DPS, the Rattlesnake is at about 750DPS with T2 sentry drones, the Huginn is just painting and webbing. In this mix, the Rattlesnake gets the aggro. If the Rattler releases combat drones, they will get the aggro for a short while.
I wonder if there's a problem with the AI not prioritising sentry drones correctly?
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
335
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 10:59:00 -
[372] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:
And you expect me to take you as credible under the same conditions?
I've given you a heap of suggestions, and you've rejected them all outright. I'm pretty sure all you want is something to complain about. You're not interested in discussion whether it's credible or not, because my suggestions aren't the only ones you've outright rejected without even trying them out for yourself.
Given *me* an heap of suggestions? I asked for *1* suggestion, that is how to implement YOUR suggestion of using SEBOs and EWAR (said in another post, for drones) in a 800mm Maelstrom. I am all ears. And yet you outright rejected a half dozen suggestions. To get to a half dozen, you first have to go through 1, and you rejected the first one, so you were given more. Go figure it out yourself. I don't care about your little problems. Since I started asking for a precise, *one* thing 1 day ago, it's hard to believe you gave "half a dozen". I take it, you have nothing of substance for a solo, 800mm AC Maelstrom pilot who wants to implement your own SEBO + EWAR suggestions.
I'm not the only one who offered you suggestions that you rejected, though, am I.
Why does it have to be a Maelstrom? Why bother, though? If you're not flexible enough to try a different ship then you're probably not flexible enough to even consider ideas other than you're own, and considering you haven't even tried to think of ONE yourself and found it necessary to ask (which I would have had no problem with had you not rejected it out of hand) I don't see why anyone should be helping you solve your problems when you won't even try to solve them yourself.
And as I've stated before, I'm giving you absolutely nothing more. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Mund Richard
28
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 11:07:00 -
[373] - Quote
ISD TYPE40 wrote:I haven't deleted any posts in this thread, instead I would ask you all to remember that there are rules that should be followed when posting on these forums. I would ask you all to stay on topic and avoid personal attacks and troll posting. This is a good discussion thread and it would be beneficial to us all for it to stay within the rules - ISD Type40. Fair enough, thank you.
Remiel Pollard wrote:Why does it have to be a Maelstrom? Why bother, though? It was a viable mission ship pre-patch, and in fact each race had at least one battleship, that with modest skills and barely any skills at V could do L4s.
While the fully fit ship costing less than 200 Mill, insurance paying out half of it at least.
I'd like it if that option would not be taken away.
The isk they make would be sub-par, a new player just told us the story of how he soloed blockade in two hours (I did it pre patch in 20mins?), so the reward wouldn't be off balance, but it's still an awesome feel to be able to clear such a hurdle in a T1 ship, which is pretty much only ideal for these as far as hisec goes.
Anyone not a new player is probably better off looking for isk elsewhere. Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2244
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 11:12:00 -
[374] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:I'm not the only one who offered you suggestions that you rejected, though, am I.
Citation needed.
Remiel Pollard wrote: Why does it have to be a Maelstrom?
Because that's a widely used ship by new L4 pilots and it also happens to not rely a lot on drones, so it makes sense to use it.
I am quite interested into giving NEWBIES working solutions that are not about flaming them, telling them to "adapt or unsub" and the other irrelevant noise that characterized a number of your unasked replies.
Remiel Pollard wrote: Why bother, though? If you're not flexible enough to try a different ship then you're probably not flexible enough to even consider ideas other than you're own, and considering you haven't even tried to think of ONE yourself and found it necessary to ask (which I would have had no problem with had you not rejected it out of hand) I don't see why anyone should be helping you solve your problems when you won't even try to solve them yourself.
And as I've stated before, I'm giving you absolutely nothing more.
I certainly don't need your "help", was just seeing if you were just about talking hot air or not.
I don't mission since 1+ years (and don't use a Mael any more) - don't even need to undock since that long. Have enough ISK to buy 2 titans if I wanted and I certainly did not need a GD though guy help about how to make wealth.
If you are not going to share a newbie maelstrom fit then you are wasting bandwidth.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Mund Richard
28
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 11:16:00 -
[375] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:I'm not the only one who offered you suggestions that you rejected, though, am I.
Citation needed. > Proteus
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Why does it have to be a Maelstrom?
Because that's a widely used ship by new L4 pilots and it also happens to not rely a lot on drones, so it makes sense to use it. I am quite interested into giving NEWBIES working solutions that are not about flaming them, telling them to "adapt or unsub" Quite. Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2244
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 11:18:00 -
[376] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:> Proteus
Someone replied me "Proteus" about what? As solution for a new L4 player with 1 account? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
335
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 11:20:00 -
[377] - Quote
There is no such thing as a "newbie fit" for level 4 missions.
Newbies start at level 1. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Mund Richard
28
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 11:22:00 -
[378] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:There is no such thing as a "newbie fit" for level 4 missions.
Newbies start at level 1. Some consider 2-3+ million SP toons flying T2 (not guns) fit battleships as "newbie fit", which were prior to this patch able to do L4s.
This is what some of us don't want to see lost, even though it doesn't affect us (or L4s at all). Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2244
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 11:25:00 -
[379] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:There is no such thing as a "newbie fit" for level 4 missions.
Years of meta 4 fitted ravens / other ships beg to differ. The "Newbie" word has a context. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Hevymetal
POT Corp Semper Ardens Alliance
34
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 11:27:00 -
[380] - Quote
18 Pages of posts, 12 threads on the first page of general with Dev responses. Still not a word here. How did this issue become such a "Typhoid Mary" that noone wants to respond to it? Was the ball dropped so bad thay are ashamed of the new AI release? Are they unsure of if/how they want to fix it now? Are they purposely nerf hammering the Newbs? We can only speculate since no official word has been given.
Still trying to formulate new strategy and tactics for soloing LVL 4s. Some are doable but there are a few mentioned here (WC) that seem near impossible to do solo, no matter what tactics/ships are used. |
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2246
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 11:30:00 -
[381] - Quote
Hevymetal wrote: Still trying to formulate new strategy and tactics for soloing LVL 4s. Some are doable but there are a few mentioned here (WC) that seem near impossible to do solo, no matter what tactics/ships are used.
The Gallente WC used to be partly bugged. You could get full stage aggro just for warping in the 2nd room and then the DPS was survivable only with deadspace mods and a relevant amount of SP. Now I would not suggest anyone doing it. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Mund Richard
28
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 11:37:00 -
[382] - Quote
Hevymetal wrote:18 Pages of posts, 12 threads on the first page of general with Dev responses. Still not a word here. How did this issue become such a "Typhoid Mary" that noone wants to respond to it? Was the ball dropped so bad thay are ashamed of the new AI release? Are they unsure of if/how they want to fix it now? Are they purposely nerf hammering the Newbs? We can only speculate since no official word has been given. THIS
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Hevymetal wrote:Still trying to formulate new strategy and tactics for soloing LVL 4s. Some are doable but there are a few mentioned here (WC) that seem near impossible to do solo, no matter what tactics/ships are used. The Gallente WC used to be partly bugged. You could get full stage aggro just for warping in the 2nd room and then the DPS was survivable only with deadspace mods and a relevant amount of SP. Now I would not suggest anyone doing it. Thought the problem there was, that you could warp inside their proximity range, and agro as soon as you either attack, move, or release drones Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
481
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 11:37:00 -
[383] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:There is no such thing as a "newbie fit" for level 4 missions.
Newbies start at level 1.
I gave you the benefit of doubt until you posted this.
Stop trolling.
Ungi ma+¦urinn ++ekkir reglurnar, en gamli ma+¦urinn ++ekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions. |
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
481
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 11:44:00 -
[384] - Quote
I will leave this here.
Read the changes from the new players perspective before continuing this discussion. Ungi ma+¦urinn ++ekkir reglurnar, en gamli ma+¦urinn ++ekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions. |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
57
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 11:46:00 -
[385] - Quote
DeBingJos wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:There is no such thing as a "newbie fit" for level 4 missions.
Newbies start at level 1. I gave you the benefit of doubt until you posted this. Stop trolling.
Just hide this troll's posts like I did, problem solved.
Hevymetal wrote:18 Pages of posts, 12 threads on the first page of general with Dev responses. Still not a word here. How did this issue become such a "Typhoid Mary" that noone wants to respond to it? Was the ball dropped so bad thay are ashamed of the new AI release? Are they unsure of if/how they want to fix it now? Are they purposely nerf hammering the Newbs? We can only speculate since no official word has been given.
Still trying to formulate new strategy and tactics for soloing LVL 4s. Some are doable but there are a few mentioned here (WC) that seem near impossible to do solo, no matter what tactics/ships are used.
Yeah I like that Dev silence too. I feel like they are ashamed about this new AI issue nad have no idea how to fix it. "Adapt" - means you have to stop using the ship you like and start flying Drake or Tengu like the rest nullbear newbs. |
Mund Richard
28
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 11:50:00 -
[386] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:Hevymetal wrote:18 Pages of posts, 12 threads on the first page of general with Dev responses. Still not a word here. How did this issue become such a "Typhoid Mary" that noone wants to respond to it? Was the ball dropped so bad thay are ashamed of the new AI release? Are they unsure of if/how they want to fix it now? Are they purposely nerf hammering the Newbs? We can only speculate since no official word has been given.
Still trying to formulate new strategy and tactics for soloing LVL 4s. Some are doable but there are a few mentioned here (WC) that seem near impossible to do solo, no matter what tactics/ships are used. Yeah I like that Dev silence too. I feel like they are ashamed about this new AI issue nad have no idea how to fix it. The silence, it's deafening, ain't it.
Well, there have been dev posts:
One admitted that the full room agro is a bug. Another admitted that the EWAR is crazy, and beyond anything they have wanted.
Pretty much those two are what make mission-running near-impossible (totally possible in a Proteus, but let's go with newer players, unpimped fits, ect), not just the new AI alone. Of course, it's bad if you don't adapt to it as well, but how would one play around fits and adapt, if the other two are also there? Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Abu Tarynnia
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 12:01:00 -
[387] - Quote
Manes Avatarr wrote:People, don't cry. At least NPCs don't shot down cruise missiles and torps launched at them. And don't try to catch bullets from autocannons.
Yet.
Well .. as I saw just some hours back the BS I attacked in Lvl3 used defensive missiles to counter my cruisers .... and yes .. it was an NPC :) |
C0ATL
DayZero Multiplanetary United
11
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 12:04:00 -
[388] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:DeBingJos wrote: Then tell me: is the risk vs reward for lv4's ok now? Why should a new player do them instead of mining? Give me some reasons..
Why should a player do anything in this game except for what they enjoy? If you're sole purpose is to make isk, then it shouldn't matter how you do it, if what you enjoy is making isk. However, if it's too much of a chore, then obviously you're not enjoying yourself, so you should find something else to do. Unsub if you have to and find another game, but a lot of people threatening to do so are failing to realise that they are in a minority and nobody really cares. The isk/reward ration for level 4s is, imo, better balanced now, but still a little weighty on the reward side. You might not have noticed this, but the select few who are extraneously vocal about how "hard" level fours are now are also in a minority. For the majority, level 4 missions haven't changed. My old corp, as carebear as they are, do quite well running level 4s. I run them with a mate with a squad setup we find quite effective at encouraging the AI not to aggro the drones. In short, we've had no worries, and we're still making plenty of isk. But that's not why I run level 4s. I run them because I enjoy shooting stuff.
Fascinating. Truly fascinating. Hey, you know what I enjoy? I enjoy using drones... I just like a swarm of those little buggers (unfortunately just 5 for non carrier ships) just running off and buzzing around your target, picking it appart until there is nothing left other than a wreck. You know what else I enjoy? Logging in on whatever hour I please and doing missions whenever I want, without depending on a group of players that probably do not have such a random time of being online as I do.
But guess what... DUM DUM DUUUUUUUM. I cant do that anymore. Because if I want to use a drone-boat I cant solo missions, and if I want to solo-missions I need to use another ship, like a missile or turret boat. At this moment, my Rattlesnake cant deploy its drones father than 10 KM without losing at least one of them. And I know what you are going to say.
"Use faster drones?" Have you seen the efficiency of medium/light drones taking out many BS?
"Dont send them past 10 km?" Right..because my Rattle's ability to send drones to as far as 85KM has been implemented because they are meant to never go past 10 KM. Billiant. 'Or maybe it was for that awsome scenario in which you use drones to snipe people, right?' (said nobody ever)
"Use the 2nd drone way exploit?" Because CCP clearly did not state that they will fix that... Not to mention that to use the said exploit, you need to wait for the enemy ships to come into range, given that if you send your drones too far to aggro the enemy, they will die on their way back, before you tuck them in and release the 2nd wave.
"Use sentries!!!!111one1!!" Yeah... would be an option, but while sentries fall in the same market and skill tab as drones, they are just turrets that you can deploy. If I wanted that, I would have gone directly for a turret ship, so thx...but no thx.
Its alright, though. I get that being a troll is much easier than actually putting thought into what the problem is. As long as it does not affect what you like to do - 'shooting stuff' - its allright for the rest to burn. I guess your hipocricy does not allow you to understand the fact that other players can enjoy something, just like you do, but in a different way or through different means. You like 'shooting stuff'...and I like 'shooting stuff with drones'. Difference between you and me is 2 words, yet you criticize others for asking CCP to fix their way of having fun. Imagine CCP releasing a patch in which, whenever you 'shoot stuff', your launchers/turrets blow up, Remiel, and then I welcome you to take that without saying a word to the devs or being irritated.
Not asking for drones to be buffed into being over-
And to all those "adapt or die" morons.... If adapting comes at the price of losing your desire to play the game or having fun while playing, then why waste one's time? Eve is supposed to be a game...not a 2nd job. |
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
58
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 12:11:00 -
[389] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Funky Lazers wrote:Hevymetal wrote:18 Pages of posts, 12 threads on the first page of general with Dev responses. Still not a word here. How did this issue become such a "Typhoid Mary" that noone wants to respond to it? Was the ball dropped so bad thay are ashamed of the new AI release? Are they unsure of if/how they want to fix it now? Are they purposely nerf hammering the Newbs? We can only speculate since no official word has been given.
Still trying to formulate new strategy and tactics for soloing LVL 4s. Some are doable but there are a few mentioned here (WC) that seem near impossible to do solo, no matter what tactics/ships are used. Yeah I like that Dev silence too. I feel like they are ashamed about this new AI issue nad have no idea how to fix it. The silence, it's deafening, ain't it. Well, there have been dev posts: One admitted that the full room agro is a bug. Another admitted that the EWAR is crazy, and beyond anything they have wanted. Pretty much those two are what make mission-running near-impossible (totally possible in a Proteus, but let's go with newer players, unpimped fits, ect), not just the new AI alone. Of course, it's bad if you don't adapt to it as well, but how would one play around fits and adapt, if the other two are also there?
You know what buggs me more than anything? Is how things are done about new players. I mean new players are very rare in this game, obviously non-brain-dead people know this for sure.
The life of a new player is very hard. Two years ago my good friend left the game just because he didn't know Amarr ships generally suck at PvE, because they can't change the damage type and you can do missions only in Amarr space to be effective. As a newb he was unable to break the tank on some Gurasta ship with hes lasers. Obviously no one told him a thing about it.
Last patch was a spit in the face of newbs. So does CCP care about newbs or not?! I mean they reworked tutorials, which means they care a little. Now they change the AI so newbs can't do a thing in space. So they care and don't care at the same time. This buggs me!
The only conclusion I have about this is they have a War with two sides inside their office. The onse side stands for the newbs, and the other stands for nullbears and care nothing about new, i.e. they like the "adapting" thingy. Guess last patch was a win of the 2nd side. "Adapt" - means you have to stop using the ship you like and start flying Drake or Tengu like the rest nullbear newbs. |
Mund Richard
28
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 12:13:00 -
[390] - Quote
C0ATL wrote:"Dont send them past 10 km?" Right..because my Rattle's ability to send drones to as far as 85KM has been implemented because they are meant to never go past 10 KM. Billiant. 'Or maybe it was for that awsome scenario in which you use drones to snipe people, right?' (said nobody ever)
"Use the 2nd drone wave exploit?" Because CCP clearly did not state that they will fix that... Not to mention that to use the said exploit, you need to wait for the enemy ships to come into range, given that if you send your drones too far to aggro the enemy, they will die on their way back, before you tuck them in and release the 2nd wave.
"Use sentries!!!!111one1!!" Yeah... would be an option, but while sentries fall in the same market and skill tab as drones, they are just extra turrets that you can deploy in space, around you. If I wanted that, I would have gone directly for a turret ship, so thx...but no thx. Did you try doing more dps in the ratter, and add one or two EWAR modules? Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
|
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Bitten.
662
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 12:40:00 -
[391] - Quote
Working as intended imo. A bloo bloo you can't afk through level 4s with drones. Get over it carebears, welcome to the new EVE. |
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
482
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 12:51:00 -
[392] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:Working as intended imo. A bloo bloo you can't afk through level 4s with drones. Get over it carebears, welcome to the new EVE.
This discussion is rather civil, except for a few people that have nothing constructive to say. The topic has nothing to do with running LV4 missions AFK.
Ungi ma+¦urinn ++ekkir reglurnar, en gamli ma+¦urinn ++ekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions. |
C0ATL
DayZero Multiplanetary United
11
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 12:55:00 -
[393] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:C0ATL wrote:"Dont send them past 10 km?" Right..because my Rattle's ability to send drones to as far as 85KM has been implemented because they are meant to never go past 10 KM. Billiant. 'Or maybe it was for that awsome scenario in which you use drones to snipe people, right?' (said nobody ever)
"Use the 2nd drone wave exploit?" Because CCP clearly did not state that they will fix that... Not to mention that to use the said exploit, you need to wait for the enemy ships to come into range, given that if you send your drones too far to aggro the enemy, they will die on their way back, before you tuck them in and release the 2nd wave.
"Use sentries!!!!111one1!!" Yeah... would be an option, but while sentries fall in the same market and skill tab as drones, they are just extra turrets that you can deploy in space, around you. If I wanted that, I would have gone directly for a turret ship, so thx...but no thx. Did you try doing more dps in the ratter, and add one or two EWAR modules?
I do not see how this has anything to do with the DPS and E-war. I can have 2k dps on it and my drones will still get alphaed 2 secs after they leave the drone-bay. And I am talking about t2 heavy drones, on a boat that gives them 50% more hp, and with 5.5 mil SP invested in drones (no fighters, FBs or sentries).
E-war is no the problem. It may be a problem, but it could be worked around if people had free use of drones, since I have noticed that drones most often go after cruisers (and they are the ones using E-war 80% of the time).
In The Assault , with Serpentis, I had 15km locking range (out of 90km normal) and it would have been a situation wherein I could have released my drones and them taking care of the enemy cruisers dampening me... but that became a quick problem when my drones started being webbed and shot down by destroyers and elite frigs. I had exactly 2 ships (except the frigs who took 1 min to lock) within that 15km locking range, and none of them were the cruisers that were using sensor damps.... and catching cruisers in a Rattlesnake (slowest bs out there) is not as fun as it may sound.
To answer your question, I did increase my dps on the Rattle since the new expansion, at the cost of some of my tank , which was acceptable, given that I never afked missions. I managed to reach 850 dps, but that did not help. I had to switch to a CNR to do missions without getting angry at losing several t2 heavies on each mission.... but being forced to use a ship and play in a way other than what you enjoy is not very good in a game that promotes "freedom of choice" "your every choice impacts the world" "bla bla bla choice". |
C0ATL
DayZero Multiplanetary United
12
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 13:07:00 -
[394] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:Working as intended imo. A bloo bloo you can't afk through level 4s with drones. Get over it carebears, welcome to the new EVE.
CCP devs had several posts that it is, in fact, NOT working as intended...but you go "Working as intended."
"Bloo bloo"? I feel like I should pitty you for your's brain's inability to have absorbed a more complex vocabulary since your birth, given that you are still using what would phonetically sound like a 2-year-old's cries when he wet his diapers, in a discussion that has proven thus far to have more or less mature participants.
Also, CCP FoxFour has posted an example of how he managed to afk missions in a Dominix with sentries...and specifically stating that its now EASIER to afk missions. But you would know that if you had bothered to look into the whole topic before letting your mouth diarheea get the best of you, and blurting out what you did, just for the sake of having a forum post on this thread.
Have a good day. |
Hevymetal
POT Corp Semper Ardens Alliance
36
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 13:34:00 -
[395] - Quote
C0ATL wrote: Also, CCP FoxFour has posted an example of how he managed to afk missions in a Dominix with sentries...and specifically stating that its now EASIER to afk missions.
Are you reffering to this post? http://eve-search.com/thread/155703-1/author/CCP#17
I would like to see the fit of that Domi :)
Also try that same setup in WC or Buzzkill, As for the dual-box setup, many of us who have been around a while have multiple accounts but most new players do not.
|
Skorpynekomimi
273
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 13:40:00 -
[396] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote:So? Do like the lady asks, and post a video of you soloing that Serpentis mission, today, in your Hyperion. We'd all love to see it. And remember to use your moderate-low SP character, not one with perfect Vs across the board. INB4 Deadly Duo It's relatively easy to find a 6 hour timer mission that's still fairly easily doable, or if you do some creative workarounds. Now Assault, I'm more curious about. Bet it can be done if the frigs don't jam you too soon. Skorpynekomimi wrote:Specialisation is for insects. I have other ways of making ISK; L4 missions are simply an easy faucet of ISK, salvage, trade goods, and minerals. That said, I fly an active-tanked gunboat Mael. My drone bay is small. Should I ditch the pricy T2 drones and just go with cheap T1s I can just produce myself?
I just specced an alt into drone boats. Domi sentry drone boat still valid tactic? Or should she just rep/cap transfer my Mael? I find the insect comment ...interesting. As long as the CCP "approved" glitch doesn't get fixed, a mix of T1 and T2 is the way to go: First unleash T1s until they die, and the next flight won't get touched at all. Or so I've heard, I'm using Garde IIs pretty much exclusively on my droneboat. Domi sentry tactic is something I used since the patch almost as well as I have before, but with my own twist on it. See for yourself, if your flavour doesn't work, change it.
The insect thing is a heinlein quote I happen to like: A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyse a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.[1]
Robert A. Heinlein, in Time Enough for Love, 1973
Also, thank you for the swift and civil response. Nowhere near enough of that in threads like this, these days.
|
Nyah Avatarr
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 13:43:00 -
[397] - Quote
Abu Tarynnia wrote:Manes Avatarr wrote:People, don't cry. At least NPCs don't shot down cruise missiles and torps launched at them. And don't try to catch bullets from autocannons. Yet.
Well .. as I saw just some hours back the BS I attacked in Lvl3 used defensive missiles to counter my cruisers .... and yes .. it was an NPC :) Are you sure that a little dev wasnt sitting in there? Joking, yes.. NPC use defender missiles sometimes. I just dont see it usually as my main is Projectiles char.
I'm thinking about how Gallente are screwed atm. Well, i dont see how one with drone skills and drone boat can run L4s just like im doing it in autocannon boat or caldari can - with missiles. Situation is obviously NOT FAIR for Gallente pilots and surely not works as intended.
Pls overhaul drones stuff or give gunners something to worry about too (i.e. matrix style dodging bullets by npc) and more heavily used defender missiles to counter Caldaris.
|
C0ATL
DayZero Multiplanetary United
13
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 14:06:00 -
[398] - Quote
Hevymetal wrote:C0ATL wrote: Also, CCP FoxFour has posted an example of how he managed to afk missions in a Dominix with sentries...and specifically stating that its now EASIER to afk missions.
Are you reffering to this post? http://eve-search.com/thread/155703-1/author/CCP#17I would like to see the fit of that Domi :) Also try that same setup in WC or Buzzkill, As for the dual-box setup, many of us who have been around a while have multiple accounts but most new players do not.
I never flew a Dominix (the aesthetics of the ship bothered me enough to never get into one), but if I give it a quick thought with a Rattle, just fit it for a good tank, let the NPCs get in optimal orbit, then release the sentries -> let them take aggro -> pull them back in -> release them again the moment NPCs re-aggro you -> go afk.
In that situation, the NPCs will not re-aggro your drones and the sentries usually focus BS and cruisers, while keeping frigs last. When you return from being afk, just put out a set of light drones and that's Mission Completed.
I admit that I never tried doing this, because I dislike AFKing missions, but from what i've observed of the new AI's behaviour towards drones, that would be the way to afk missions. Ofcourse, this does not work for missions that spawn waves of NPCs. Another downside to this would be the long wait-time before you can release the drones the 1st time, because of letting NPCs get closer.
Again, sorry for not being able to give you a proper Dominix fit, nor can I give you the one FoxFour posted, given that I would have to plow through my history to catch the thread in which he wrote the post I spoke about, and it was several days ago that I read it, when I first came to the forums. If you want I can give you info on a Rattle fit that will work. |
Frater Scrapheap
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 14:29:00 -
[399] - Quote
To repeat myself: I dont care about how hard Lv4 missions are. They are - beside the full stage aggro - easy anyways. But i really hate it, if some developer confusing "interesting&diffcult" with "boring&tedious". Yeah, boring game mechanics - thats the problem and not if a player is earning 5 million ISK more or less. Really, the whole discussion should not about Lv4 missions, it should be about the game concepts and how the hell someone who is playing the game, is able to come up with the idea to change the AI in this way.... with this UI / Drone interface.
|
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
592
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 15:01:00 -
[400] - Quote
Not going to reply to anyone in particular, but the whole "specialization is for insects" and "adapt" doesn't hold water as a valid argument. Even though I personally love that Heinlein quote - managed most of is by now, except writing a sonnet, conning a ship and the whole dying part.
First, stop and realize that "specialization" is precisely what most EVE guides advocate for new players! Yes, that's right. The advice given to a new player is never "train everything!", it is always "pick one and get good with it", usually starting with a frigate and a single weapon system and a single tank. As such, this AI change, if it punishes specialization and encourages diversification, goes directly against the new players. And then we wonder why EVE's new player retention sucks?
Second, have you considered that perhaps the player specialized for a reason? As in, a player chose to specialize to fly drone boats because he likes the idea of drone boats? As such, adapting - which is easier to achieve by cross-training into a more manageable ship - is not something they're willing to do. It is, in a way, equivalent to taking a pirate player in EVE, who only wants to PvP, making PvP difficult/impossible, and forcing the pirate into PvE as a way to "adapt". Will that likely work? Well, no, because it is not the play style he prefers. Same with missions. It's not that adaptation is impossible - it's just many feel that in a sandbox game where you supposedly can do whatever you wish - being pushed into something goes contrary to the core design.
So, you say, fly drone boats if that's what you want, and deal with consequences (managing drones, aggro issues, etc.)? Sure, you're right. Totally 100% correct. But, this is where balance comes in! If ships are balanced, a drone boat should perform at least as well as a turret or missile boat, with the same amount of work. Think of it this way - one worker gets a nailgun, another gets a box or nails and a hammer, and the third gets a box of nails and an old boot. If the objective is to drive nails, the first guy has the obvious advantage, the second guy will perform adequately, and the third guy will whack away with his boot until the cows come home. That's the drone user currently - tons of micromanagement, no payoff for the extra effort. The situation is, simply put, grossly unbalanced.
Now, this is not to say drone boats should be dumbed down to turret/missile level. They could still require tons of micromanagement, but there has to be a payoff. For example, if poorly-managed drone boat did 70% of a turret/missile ship's DPS, and an excellently-managed drone boat did 140% of a turret/missile ship's DPS, with an average being somewhere around 100% (balanced), the system would work. In other MMOs, this is called a "skill cap". Some classes have high skill cap, that is require a very skilled player, but the payoff is that the class can feel almost godlike in the right hands. Similarly, a low skill cap class will perform moderately well, regardless of how poorly it is played, it is simply very difficult to screw up due to user error. I wouldn't be opposed to drone boats in EVE becoming high skill cap. But there has to be a payoff for that - for the micromanagement of drones, for the logistical issues of restocking lost drones on combat ops, etc., etc.
Anywho, blah blah. Would be nice to see someone from CCP chime in on the whole drone/AI issue. It's been almost a week since the patch, and mum's the word. |
|
Arec Bardwin
804
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 15:28:00 -
[401] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote: Anywho, blah blah. Would be nice to see someone from CCP chime in on the whole drone/AI issue. It's been almost a week since the patch, and mum's the word.
Admit the mistake of rushing an untested feature? I wouldn't count on it.
|
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
594
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 15:34:00 -
[402] - Quote
Arec Bardwin wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote: Anywho, blah blah. Would be nice to see someone from CCP chime in on the whole drone/AI issue. It's been almost a week since the patch, and mum's the word.
Admit the mistake of rushing an untested feature? I wouldn't count on it.
I'd settle for "what's next?" answered. If drone overhaul is in the pipe, I would care less about the AI issues since drone review would probably fix most of the issues. If drones are going to be ignored for another 5 years, and dorky AI is here to stay, I'll cross-train some more. But it would be nice to know.
Although in retrospect I understand why they're completely avoiding commenting on this whole issue. I glanced at the Retribution Issues thread, and there's soooo many bugs in this release that AI and drones are most likely very, very far down the priority list right now. |
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9 Quantum Cafe
124
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 16:15:00 -
[403] - Quote
The best workaround - paying more attention, changing tactics. Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
594
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 16:29:00 -
[404] - Quote
BoBoZoBo wrote:The best workaround - paying more attention, changing tactics.
Thank you very much for your contribution!
(back home, doing Jean Luc Picard double-facepalm thing, because a single facepalm just won't do) |
Mister Sherman
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 16:40:00 -
[405] - Quote
Kagumichan wrote:The drone tactic saved my Rokh earlier.
Doing The Assault, level 4, Serpentis...
See, the problem isn't with the drones, but with this mission in general. Anytime I've ever run this mission, the Sensor Dampening simply makes this mission unbearable. Probably best to pass on it. |
TOPSTER
9th Air Cavalry
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 16:47:00 -
[406] - Quote
Edey wrote:Now that I can't do L4 missions with my drones, can I have a skills remap?
No, this is not a joke or a troll. I really want a remap, this is fair. In any other game when devs nerf something to hell they give you a respec so you have a choice. Having mostly drone skills cuts your ability to do anything right now.
Well since I have 20.3 Million SP in Drones that would be pretty interesting..... |
Twopah
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 05:57:00 -
[407] - Quote
PvE fits start with 80% resists. Try heading to a mission with base T1 resists, see how long before your ship is noctis food. CCP simply didn't think this one through. |
Angang Ostus
Shooting Red Crosses
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 08:13:00 -
[408] - Quote
Kagumichan wrote:The drone tactic saved my Rokh earlier.
Doing The Assault, level 4, Serpentis... upon warping in the entire room aggroed immediately (that's about 30 frigates, 30 battlecruisers and 10 battleships), 6 sensor dampeners dropped my locking range down to 18k and then the dampers flew around me at 30k, whilst two frigs came in and warp scrambled me. The moment I let out the drones to blow up the scramblers everything, except the scrambling frigs, shot the drones and started popping them. That left me with two options:
1. Sit there and die 2. Drop all my drones and pray to the almighty God of pure luck that either my drones could take the scramble frigs off before they all blew up, or that the scrambling frigs would switch targets.
By pure luck, option 2 happened just as my hull was buckling, and my brave Warrior II's stayed behind and sacrificed themselves whilst I, now looking like a giant flaming fireball, went to go and pay a 9 million isk repair bill, having been completely unable to kill or even lock onto a target in that mission.
A friend earlier actually spent about 2 hours doing a mission in his tengu because for only about 30 seconds every 10 minutes he was able to get a lock because of all the jammers.
The new AI is very nice, it makes things more fun, but I don't think these mission were play-tested to make sure they were still doable solo before it was applied.
Dude. Next time save 9 million ISK and use hull reppers. |
baltec1
Bat Country
3238
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 10:10:00 -
[409] - Quote
Twopah wrote:CCP simply didn't think this one through.
Or maby, just maby, they did think it through and decided that these missions were far too easy and the reason they arnt answering your crying foul is because they intended this to happen. |
Sister Lumi
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 10:23:00 -
[410] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote: Now they change the AI so newbs can't do a thing in space.
I just picked this one as an example of the twisted minds of hisec mission-runners.
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Check that and realize that missions are just one small area of the game.
Don't you guys understand that this game is an MMO? AI is not the one you play with, it's stupid, boring and repetitive. EVE universe is full of clever minds, funny people, arseholes and most importantly potential space friends, who create the most amazing gameplay option available in any game.
Go play with them, and against them.
|
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Manes Avatarr
Adventurers
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 10:30:00 -
[411] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Or maby, just maby, they did think it through and decided that these missions were far too easy and the reason they arnt answering your crying foul is because they intended this to happen. Or maybe CCP wanted to enhance difficulty for L4s in general but came up with just screwing Gallente only? As Minmatar i really dont care, every frig just dies quickly to my rusty guns. And i can just skip these assigments when i land in center of a Serpentis' party which are unplayable for any faction. But dude... have some empathy. Chars based on drone skills have really hard time with these changes.
|
baltec1
Bat Country
3239
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 10:38:00 -
[412] - Quote
Manes Avatarr wrote: Or maybe CCP wanted to enhance difficulty for L4s in general but came up with just screwing Gallente only? As Minmatar i really dont care, every frig just dies quickly to my rusty guns. And i can just skip these assigments when i land in center of a Serpentis' party which are unplayable for any faction. But dude... have some empathy. Chars based on drone skills have really hard time with these changes.
Only the ones who rely upon battleclinic for the shipfits. I have already given few ships in this thread that are able to do these missions, but just like when I pointed out that exhumers could fit a tank to miners, I only end up getting insulted and the advise ignored.
The simple truth of high sec bears is that they refuse to adapt in any way to changes. |
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe Against ALL Authorities
599
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 10:41:00 -
[413] - Quote
Perhaps when CCP and the CSM are quite done patting each other on the back and telling each other how wonderful they are they might respond in this thread... FIRE FRIENDSHIP TORPEDOES ! Louis's epic skill guide v1.1 |
Sister Lumi
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 10:45:00 -
[414] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: The simple truth of high sec bears is that they refuse to adapt in any way to changes.
And they sound like Cartman
"this is bullcrap!11"
|
raskonalkov
Tie Fighters Inc
21
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 10:47:00 -
[415] - Quote
Louis deGuerre wrote:Perhaps when CCP and the CSM are quite done patting each other on the back and telling each other how wonderful they are they might respond in this thread...
Hopefully they evaded those North Korean missiles on the way there, otherwise angry devs with unpatted backs will come to the thread to wreck havoc. |
Mund Richard
33
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 12:07:00 -
[416] - Quote
Sister Lumi wrote:Funky Lazers wrote: Now they change the AI so newbs can't do a thing in space.
I just picked this one as an example of the twisted minds of hisec mission-runners. http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ Realistically, if you want to play with ships blowing up NPCs semi-safe, you have: Cosmos/Epic Arcs: How often can you do them? (Question, since I am not quite sure). Incursions: Usually accepted as a step UP from L4, and not the same difficulty. Such as, needing fleets with logi, or something Ratting. In HiSec? Exploration: Really chance-based, the ones in hisec are less rewarding, and a quite bit more crowded if you do it in the wrong place. Now, if you go and live in a WH or Sov space, that can get sortof-safeish, and you will make a lot more isk. But between L3 and HiSec sites and WH/Sov exploration, the gap can be quite high (well, you can go around it with lower value sites, that are somewhat like L4 in difficulty, but still, the safety part depends on your alliance now). At least, that was my impression, ran L4s enough that exploration surprises me more by the shiny loot not dropping, than the difficulty. Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Hevymetal
POT Corp Semper Ardens Alliance
38
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 12:24:00 -
[417] - Quote
Louis deGuerre wrote:Perhaps when CCP and the CSM are quite done patting each other on the back and telling each other how wonderful they are they might respond in this thread...
I wouldn't hold you breath, 20 pages and almost 400 posts and not a peep from anyone higher in the food chain then us peons.
I did notice:
2 changes from the patch this morning that will certainly go along wa to help mission runners.
- NPCs will now respect their authored threat ranges so the full room will not aggro a player on entering the dungeon. - Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship.
But still not a word about drones.
Thanks for the communication with the player base and the transparency you promised us years ago. |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
217
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 12:37:00 -
[418] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Only the ones who rely upon battleclinic for the shipfits.
Never once checked my fits against all of that "Sacred Template" crap. I suppose next you're going to tell me that I should?
EvE Forum Bingo |
Mund Richard
34
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 12:45:00 -
[419] - Quote
Hevymetal wrote:Thanks for the communication with the player base and the transparency you promised us years ago. Communication via patchnotes > Communication via silence
Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
482
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 13:11:00 -
[420] - Quote
Hevymetal wrote:Louis deGuerre wrote:Perhaps when CCP and the CSM are quite done patting each other on the back and telling each other how wonderful they are they might respond in this thread... I wouldn't hold you breath, 20 pages and almost 400 posts and not a peep from anyone higher in the food chain then us peons. I did notice: 2 changes from the patch this morning that will certainly go along wa to help mission runners. - NPCs will now respect their authored threat ranges so the full room will not aggro a player on entering the dungeon. - Corrected the chance percentage that an enemy NPC will use tracking disruption on a player's ship. But still not a word about drones. Thanks for the communication with the player base and the transparency you promised us years ago.
that is good.
To be honest, those 2 changes will solve most of the problems. Ungi ma+¦urinn ++ekkir reglurnar, en gamli ma+¦urinn ++ekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions. |
|
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
347
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 13:15:00 -
[421] - Quote
Hevymetal wrote:But still not a word about drones.
Thanks for the communication with the player base and the transparency you promised us years ago.
That silence on drones is pretty much how they're communicating that it's working as intended in that regard. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9 Quantum Cafe
126
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 14:50:00 -
[422] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:BoBoZoBo wrote:The best workaround - paying more attention, changing tactics. Thank you very much for your contribution! (back home, doing Jean Luc Picard double-facepalm thing, because a single facepalm just won't do)
HA - Sorry - I was actually replying to another thread.
What I will end up doing is once a drone is targeted, I keep it orbiting me and I RR it. They get a target they like and they usually keep hitting that one. I get to kill them Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9 Quantum Cafe
126
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 14:53:00 -
[423] - Quote
Edey wrote:Now that I can't do L4 missions with my drones, can I have a skills remap?
No, this is not a joke or a troll. I really want a remap, this is fair. In any other game when devs nerf something to hell they give you a respec so you have a choice. Having mostly drone skills cuts your ability to do anything right now.
WOW really - No more fire, forget, drink a beer, bang the wife and come back to a screen full of wreaks - Awwwwww Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
611
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 15:15:00 -
[424] - Quote
BoBoZoBo wrote:HA - Sorry - I was actually replying to another thread.
What I will end up doing is once a drone is targeted, I keep it orbiting me and I RR it. They get a target they like and they usually keep hitting that one. I get to kill them
This approach is flawed for a number of reasons.
1. What if the drone is far away?
Please don't tell me drones are not intended to fly far away from the ship - this is directly countered by Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing skill (improves drone control range), Drone Link Augmentor module (again improves drone control range). And before you argue that this is perhaps intended for Sentry drones, there's also Drone Navigation module (improves travel speed, not combat speed). I propose this proves drones ARE intended to travel long distances to their targets.
We should also be able to assume that the game is balanced. Thus, when Thermal damage is required, Gallente drones should be viable for use. Otherwise the game is unbalanced. This, coupled with the above paragraph, says that even incredibly slow Ogre heavy drones SHOULD be usable over long distances.
However, you and I both know that if an Ogre comes under fire 60km away, it will be dead long, long before it can be repaired. Even relatively fast Minmatar Berserker likely won't make it. If it is webbed, it definitely won't make it. And sentries are not always viable or desirable - such as in a moving fight, or extremely-close orbiting ships (Angels Cartel battleships orbiting at 2.5km).
2. Loss of DPS from return to repair?
Even assuming the drone can make it back within range, and assuming it doesn't get alphaed from 100% to dead in one shot, what about the DPS loss? Recalling a drone for repair is equivalent to turning off a turret on another ship. Add to that the DPS loss for travel time of the drone from from ship to original target, where it presumably takes damage, then time spent flying back, time spent undergoing repairs, and time spent once again traveling to target before resuming its damage dealing? All this HAS to be compensated. It isn't. Thus, the system is broken.
Look, I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying it is currently grossly, ludicrously inefficient compared to every other race. This change effectively damaged a HUGE chunk of Gallente ship lineup in PvE. Including but not limited to Tristan, Algos, Vexor, Myrmidon and Dominix. And that's just the T1 hulls. |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
44
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 16:40:00 -
[425] - Quote
For people looking for a somewhat better discusison on how you can still run your missions (incl. using drones), might I suggest taking a look at the comment section in this blog: No Retribution For Old Drones
More so than the particular tips (centering on generationg threat by using ewar and remote repping your own drones to make the AI switch back to yourself), the actual constructive tone of the discussion is what I'd like to emphasize most. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
614
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 17:01:00 -
[426] - Quote
Karsa Egivand wrote:For people looking for a somewhat better discussion on how you can still run your missions (incl. using drones), might I suggest taking a look at the comment section in this blog: No Retribution For Old DronesMore so than the particular tips (centering on generating threat by using ewar and remote repping your own drones to make the AI switch back to yourself), the actual constructive tone of the discussion is what I'd like to emphasize most.
I read that blog a few days ago, it was linked to by the blog creator from the "Time for Drones v2.0?" thread in Features and Ideas Discussion subforum. He seems to be asking for drone review, just like everyone else (that actually uses drones regularly).
So, what's your point? That the change can be dealt with? Nobody is arguing otherwise. There's a myriad of ways to deal with the situation. Simplest one being to cross-train for a Tengu and not worry about a thing. So what?
The point of this thread is why it was done, how it improves gameplay (which most feel it doesn't), how unfairly it treats drone users compared to other users with different weapon systems (which are arguably more effective and efficient, and unarguably vastly more popular...why?), and so on.
Stop trying to turn this into an "adapt" thread. If someone started a fire under my chair right now, I would probably find a way to adapt to that. An automated sprinkler system localized around my buttock region leaps to mind. But it wouldn't stop me from questioning why I need a friggin' fire under my chair. Hence, this thread. |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
44
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 17:13:00 -
[427] - Quote
Whats my point? Sigh, as said, i was mostly pointing out the tone of the discussion and the approach to the changes rather than particular points.
I do not think that after a few days we really have a complete picture yet. But instead of testing the new mission AI and at least trying to adapt (and yes, i will use the word), people have immediately switched to arguing.
Mind you, if it turns out - in a week or two - that the concerns are justified, I am perfectly fine with asking for/discussing changes to the new AI. I do dislike jumping to conclusions though.
Also, I think that the new AI DOES improve gameplay. The rats are now more unpredictable, which makes the missions more entertaining, because things do not always go down exactly the same way (i'd prefer more randomisation of the waves and triggers as well).
Also, did you read the comment section? Your reply indicates you think I was only pointing to the blog itself, I was not. I wanted to draw attention to the comment section instead and how people there approached the issue. |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
244
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 17:30:00 -
[428] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Twopah wrote:CCP simply didn't think this one through. Or maby, just maby, they did think it through and decided that these missions were far too easy and the reason they arnt answering your crying foul is because they intended this to happen.
Twopah wrote:PvE fits start with 80% resists. Try heading to a mission with base T1 resists, see how long before your ship is noctis food. CCP simply didn't think this one through.
The comment before the goon spin doctor, murdered it.
It's like second nature to you, isn't it Baltec?
R.I.P. Vile Rat |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
614
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 17:38:00 -
[429] - Quote
Karsa Egivand wrote:Whats my point? Sigh, as said, i was mostly pointing out the tone of the discussion and the approach to the changes rather than particular points.
Well, I'm with you on the tone thing. But you gotta admit, it's been well over a week since the patch, and we've gotten zero communication from CCP, despite there being tons of questions. The most pressing one being "are you planning to fix drones?" What we get is deafening silence.
Further, this change was known months ago. And same concerns were expressed, among other places in specific Test Server Feedback threads. They too were mostly ignored, except for one developer who did some testing and said it's good enough. But once again did not comment on the state of drones which has been pathetic for years.
Quote:I do not think that after a few days we really have a complete picture yet. But instead of testing the new mission AI and at least trying to adapt (and yes, i will use the word), people have immediately switched to arguing.
You really don't need to test the new AI to know drones have issues.
Drone UI is sad. Can we agree it's sad? It's pretty sad, isn't it? I mean, think about it. You can fire all of your turrets and launchers by pressing F1. But to make drones attack, it takes 2-3 clicks to select the group you want and launch it, another click to see their HP, another click/hotkey to make them attack. All of this takes time. And then you add the travel time of drones themselves, and the time that elapses between you deciding to attack someone with drones, and damage happening, is almost an order of magnitude larger than with turrets. How can that be viewed as OK?
I don't think at this point with the new AI it's even possible to argue that drones are fine. So why test the AI, which specifically targets drones now, which weren't fine to begin with? It can't possibly be better now than it was. And it was sad to begin with.
Quote:Mind you, if it turns out - in a week or two - that the concerns are justified, I am perfectly fine with asking for/discussing changes to the new AI. I do dislike jumping to conclusions though.
Some folks did a months' worth of testing on SiSi. And the conclusion was - things need changing. It is a fundamentally unfair situation for drone users.
Further, remember that the "current" AI is yet incomplete. I can find you a CCP post saying they released it broken, knowingly. There's currently an exploit that allows to protect drones relatively well. They are however planning on closing that loophole soon. So what's the point in testing the AI we know is broken and awaiting a fix?
Quote:Also, I think that the new AI DOES improve gameplay. The rats are now more unpredictable, which makes the missions more entertaining, because things do not always go down exactly the same way (i'd prefer more randomisation of the waves and triggers as well).
Eeeeh, in a way it is more unpredictable, yes. In other ways, it's about the same. You see, for multiple players inside the same complex, things are definitely getting spiced up now. But for a single pilot, flying a Tengu for example (and not using drones), the net change from the AI patch is zero. As in, no change. BUT, for a drone user, the change is significant. Sooo, how is this balanced? When ship A is totally unaffected, while ship B is heavily affected and requires tons of additional micromanagement?
Quote:Also, did you read the comment section? Your reply indicates you think I was only pointing to the blog itself - I was not. I wanted to draw attention to the comment section instead and how people there approached the issue.
Erm, if you ignore the trolls and fools and people who never touched a drone boat even with a 20-foot-long rusty halberd, the comments in the blog and here are largely the same.
Also, the comments don't really have a lively discussion. For example, consider the last comment about RR to keep drones alive? Now find a post of mine, probably right on this page, in this thread explaining how RR and drones is NOT a solution, because A) drones have travel time and can die en route to RR, B) loss of DPS from travel time and RR, and a number of other issues that do not make RR a viable solution in the long run. This kind of reply is absent in those comments, and thus the overall impression is a more positive and constructive one - but only because obvious pitfalls and counter-arguments are never presented, otherwise the illusion of universal agreement would be broken. |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
45
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 18:22:00 -
[430] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote: Well, I'm with you on the tone thing. But you gotta admit, it's been well over a week since the patch, and we've gotten zero communication from CCP, despite there being tons of questions. The most pressing one being "are you planning to fix drones?" What we get is deafening silence. Most of the CCP feedback for Retribution took place in the feedback thread (which isn't under general discusison, but under the information portal).
Jame Jarl Retief wrote: You really don't need to test the new AI to know drones have issues [...] Drone UI is sad. Can we agree it's sad? It's pretty sad, isn't it? [...] I don't think at this point with the new AI it's even possible to argue that drones are fine. So why test the AI, which specifically targets drones now, which weren't fine to begin with? It can't possibly be better now than it was. And it was sad to begin with. We can. I rember that some dev (Punkturis, I think, though don't quote me on the name) said not too long ago that it was on his/her shortlist. But yeah, it needs adressing soonish. Considering their recent work on the UI, I suspect that drones, the overview and the corp interface are next on the list. Thats reading crystal balls though, I admit.
As far as the missions themselves go, yes we do need more testing. (we seem to disagree there)
And I do think these are two seperate issues. Yes, drone usability (as far as UI is concerned), is horrid. It's effectiveness in combat (PvE and PvP) is not impacted by that though, just how much fun I have while doing so. I dont want to start balancing UI deficiencies of drones by mixing it with how their combat effectiveness should be.
Jame Jarl Retief wrote: Further, remember that the "current" AI is yet incomplete. I can find you a CCP post saying they released it broken, knowingly. There's currently an exploit that allows to protect drones relatively well. They are however planning on closing that loophole soon. So what's the point in testing the AI we know is broken and awaiting a fix? I'd love to hear more on both points. Send me a mail if you don't want to post it publically.
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Karsa Egivand wrote:Also, I think that the new AI DOES improve gameplay. The rats are now more unpredictable, which makes the missions more entertaining, because things do not always go down exactly the same way (i'd prefer more randomisation of the waves and triggers as well). Eeeeh, in a way it is more unpredictable, yes. In other ways, it's about the same. You see, for multiple players inside the same complex, things are definitely getting spiced up now. But for a single pilot, flying a Tengu for example (and not using drones), the net change from the AI patch is zero. As in, no change. BUT, for a drone user, the change is significant. Sooo, how is this balanced? When ship A is totally unaffected, while ship B is heavily affected and requires tons of additional micromanagement I know that there is more to be done about spicing up missions for the soloist (which is why i mentioned randomisation of waves/triggers) - though I don't run my PvE content solo, most of the time. As far as balance is concerned, I am not yet sure if drone users got the shaft as much as you think. If so, the AI supposedly can adjust the drone agression a tad downwards still. BTW, any kind of change in PvE will effect balance between different approaches somewhat - but perfect balance in PvE is sth. I am MUCH less concerned with than the actual fun while doing the deed. Obvs. using drone boats has to remain a viable approach, and right now I think it does (or so goes my initial testing, but I need to do more).
BTW, I am fine if we lose a drone or two once in a while (even if unavoidable). Using a few T2 drones here or there is hardly much of an impact on ISK/hour (depends on the rate, ofc). And in the end, there will always be one superior approach to ISK/hour. If all the others stay somewhat within range, that's fine. (again, perfect PvE balance... meh. Just make it decent.)
I need to test more to comment in detail on actual strategies on keeping aggro on myself rather than my drones... |
|
Dean Clarke
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 18:40:00 -
[431] - Quote
A very fundamental part of the game has been broken. And yes, it is a game breaking issue for most drone users.
Not only that, but an "entire race" has been nerfed out of proportion.
Really, nothing much to discuss. It needs to be fixed ASAP. |
YoYo NickyYo
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
72
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 18:45:00 -
[432] - Quote
Dean Clarke wrote:A very fundamental part of the game has been broken. And yes, it is a game breaking issue for most drone users.
Not only that, but an "entire race" has been nerfed out of proportion.
Really, nothing much to discuss. It needs to be fixed ASAP.
No..... While I agree that drones badly need to be updated, these changes should stay. This game has enough problems with static content, hopefully this is the first step in making Eve an interesting game to play.
"Working as intended" |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
45
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 18:48:00 -
[433] - Quote
Dean Clarke wrote:A very fundamental part of the game has been broken. And yes, it is a game breaking issue for most drone users.
Not only that, but an "entire race" has been nerfed out of proportion.
It is very similar to mobs breaking your projectile weapons or missile launchers each and every mission :(
Really, nothing much to discuss. It needs to be fixed ASAP.
Really depends on how often you lose a drone. Remember that hybrid and projectile weapons do use ammo. |
ashley Eoner
68
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 18:50:00 -
[434] - Quote
YoYo NickyYo wrote:Dean Clarke wrote:A very fundamental part of the game has been broken. And yes, it is a game breaking issue for most drone users.
Not only that, but an "entire race" has been nerfed out of proportion.
Really, nothing much to discuss. It needs to be fixed ASAP. No..... While I agree that drones badly need to be updated, these changes should stay. This game has enough problems with static content, hopefully this is the first step in making Eve an interesting game to play. Indeed I am digging the new AI now that it's no longer ridiculously dumb about retargeting anything new to the room. Once they fix the un-nerfed ECM/dampener spam, the room pulls, and the aggressive drone killing the changes will be for the better. |
baltec1
Bat Country
3254
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 18:56:00 -
[435] - Quote
Quote:
The comment before the goon spin doctor, murdered it.
It's like second nature to you, isn't it Baltec?
I do have an ability to condence someones argument into a few words so we dont have massive walls of quotes. |
Dean Clarke
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 19:03:00 -
[436] - Quote
Karsa Egivand wrote:
Really depends on how often you lose a drone. Remember that hybrid and projectile weapons do use ammo.
Drones are not ammo; for a lot of people they are the main weapon. |
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9 Quantum Cafe
126
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 19:04:00 -
[437] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:BoBoZoBo wrote:HA - Sorry - I was actually replying to another thread.
What I will end up doing is once a drone is targeted, I keep it orbiting me and I RR it. They get a target they like and they usually keep hitting that one. I get to kill them This approach is flawed for a number of reasons. 1. What if the drone is far away? Please don't tell me drones are not intended to fly far away from the ship - this is directly countered by Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing skill (improves drone control range), Drone Link Augmentor module (again improves drone control range). And before you argue that this is perhaps intended for Sentry drones, there's also Drone Navigation module (improves travel speed, not combat speed). I propose this proves drones ARE intended to travel long distances to their targets. We should also be able to assume that the game is balanced. Thus, when Thermal damage is required, Gallente drones should be viable for use. Otherwise the game is unbalanced. This, coupled with the above paragraph, says that even incredibly slow Ogre heavy drones SHOULD be usable over long distances. However, you and I both know that if an Ogre comes under fire 60km away, it will be dead long, long before it can be repaired. Even relatively fast Minmatar Berserker likely won't make it. If it is webbed, it definitely won't make it. And sentries are not always viable or desirable - such as in a moving fight, or extremely-close orbiting ships (Angels Cartel battleships orbiting at 2.5km). 2. Loss of DPS from return to repair? Even assuming the drone can make it back within range, and assuming it doesn't get alphaed from 100% to dead in one shot, what about the DPS loss? Recalling a drone for repair is equivalent to turning off a turret on another ship. Add to that the DPS loss for travel time of the drone from from ship to original target, where it presumably takes damage, then time spent flying back, time spent undergoing repairs, and time spent once again traveling to target before resuming its damage dealing? All this HAS to be compensated. It isn't. Thus, the system is broken. Look, I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying it is currently grossly, ludicrously inefficient compared to every other race. This change effectively damaged a HUGE chunk of Gallente ship lineup in PvE. Including but not limited to Tristan, Algos, Vexor, Myrmidon and Dominix. And that's just the T1 hulls.
No doubt it is inefficient. But it works tremendously well.
Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 20:20:00 -
[438] - Quote
Dean Clarke wrote:Karsa Egivand wrote:
Really depends on how often you lose a drone. Remember that hybrid and projectile weapons do use ammo.
Drones are not ammo; for a lot of people they are the main weapon.
I just meant that paying for a lost drone once in a while is not too great an ISK-burden (proper drone boats HAVE more dronebay than drone bandwidth, so it shouldn't impact your killing speed much, its not as if your DPS is gone until you've been to a trade hub). Obvs. you shouldn't lose drones every mission. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1893
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 20:24:00 -
[439] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Quote:The comment before the goon spin doctor, murdered it.
It's like second nature to you, isn't it Baltec? I do have an ability to condence someones argument into a few words so we dont have massive walls of quotes. The walls are nicer. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
401
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 20:59:00 -
[440] - Quote
BoBoZoBo wrote:Jame Jarl Retief wrote:BoBoZoBo wrote:HA - Sorry - I was actually replying to another thread.
What I will end up doing is once a drone is targeted, I keep it orbiting me and I RR it. They get a target they like and they usually keep hitting that one. I get to kill them This approach is flawed for a number of reasons. 1. What if the drone is far away? Please don't tell me drones are not intended to fly far away from the ship - this is directly countered by Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing skill (improves drone control range), Drone Link Augmentor module (again improves drone control range). And before you argue that this is perhaps intended for Sentry drones, there's also Drone Navigation module (improves travel speed, not combat speed). I propose this proves drones ARE intended to travel long distances to their targets. We should also be able to assume that the game is balanced. Thus, when Thermal damage is required, Gallente drones should be viable for use. Otherwise the game is unbalanced. This, coupled with the above paragraph, says that even incredibly slow Ogre heavy drones SHOULD be usable over long distances. However, you and I both know that if an Ogre comes under fire 60km away, it will be dead long, long before it can be repaired. Even relatively fast Minmatar Berserker likely won't make it. If it is webbed, it definitely won't make it. And sentries are not always viable or desirable - such as in a moving fight, or extremely-close orbiting ships (Angels Cartel battleships orbiting at 2.5km). 2. Loss of DPS from return to repair? Even assuming the drone can make it back within range, and assuming it doesn't get alphaed from 100% to dead in one shot, what about the DPS loss? Recalling a drone for repair is equivalent to turning off a turret on another ship. Add to that the DPS loss for travel time of the drone from from ship to original target, where it presumably takes damage, then time spent flying back, time spent undergoing repairs, and time spent once again traveling to target before resuming its damage dealing? All this HAS to be compensated. It isn't. Thus, the system is broken. Look, I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying it is currently grossly, ludicrously inefficient compared to every other race. This change effectively damaged a HUGE chunk of Gallente ship lineup in PvE. Including but not limited to Tristan, Algos, Vexor, Myrmidon and Dominix. And that's just the T1 hulls. No doubt it is inefficient. But it works tremendously well. At the cost of a 20% DPS reduction. This is the primary factor pushing me away from drone usage as a primary weapon post patch. It's not that solutions can't be found or executed, but that their cost appears to be disproportional. |
|
Phil Da Agony
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 22:21:00 -
[441] - Quote
You people know that reppers exist rite? and they actually work, RITE? |
Mund Richard
34
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 22:24:00 -
[442] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: This is the primary factor pushing me away from drone usage as a primary weapon post patch. Can't remember the last time I thought of drones as primary weapon system, apart from sentries.
Although it has been ages ago since I flew L2s comparing a Vexor to a Thorax, and at the time the Algos was not in game. Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
401
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 22:59:00 -
[443] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: This is the primary factor pushing me away from drone usage as a primary weapon post patch. Can't remember the last time I thought of drones as primary weapon system, apart from sentries. Although it has been ages ago since I flew L2s comparing a Vexor to a Thorax, and at the time the Algos was not in game. I primarily use sentries but very close orbiting ships cruiser and up I tend to get better results with heavies. Only issue is that unbonused RR range doesn't even allow that half the time. |
ashley Eoner
70
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 00:24:00 -
[444] - Quote
Phil Da Agony wrote:You people know that reppers exist rite? and they actually work, RITE? yes the large RR has a range of about 8-9KM and requires you to spend at least 15 seconds locking the drone. My rattlesnake has a large armour repper in one of it's high slots and I rarely actually get to use it because either the drone dies before my lock completes or the drone dies before it gets back into range. The reppers do work for the sentries but right now it's more efficient by far to just abuse the AI defect and then repair with impunity. |
Mund Richard
34
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 01:42:00 -
[445] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Phil Da Agony wrote:You people know that reppers exist rite? and they actually work, RITE? yes the large RR has a range of about 8-9KM and requires you to spend at least 15 seconds locking the drone. My rattlesnake has a large armour repper in one of it's high slots and I rarely actually get to use it because either the drone dies before my lock completes or the drone dies before it gets back into range. The reppers do work for the sentries but right now it's more efficient by far to just abuse the AI defect and then repair with impunity. Maybe a new module, that has the fitting costs of a large repper, does the repping of a small, but at an extended range? ... Nah, don't quite see it work. Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Morar Santee
118
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 01:45:00 -
[446] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Urgg Boolean wrote:If soloing, what is the counter measure for the Serpentis damping now? Because "disposable drones" is not really an option or a viable strategy in my opinion. I'm happy to admit my ignorance if anybody has a great counter measure. Excellent. Then I would advise you check out the marketplace for four new skills so you may reduce your ignorance: Magnetometric Sensor Compensation; Gravimetric Sensor Compensation; Ladar Sensor Compensation; & Radar Sensor Compensation You will find what ships they best suit in the skill explanations. You mean ignorance like:
Saying that Sensor Compensation skills will help against sensor dampening? Just a hint - they don't. Sensor strength only affects the likelihood of being jammed. Sensor dampeners, however, decrease lock-range.
You, sir, are a full-blown moron. I would suggest you stop making vaguely condescending posts on topics you clearly do not know **** about. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
387
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 02:38:00 -
[447] - Quote
Morar Santee wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Urgg Boolean wrote:If soloing, what is the counter measure for the Serpentis damping now? Because "disposable drones" is not really an option or a viable strategy in my opinion. I'm happy to admit my ignorance if anybody has a great counter measure. Excellent. Then I would advise you check out the marketplace for four new skills so you may reduce your ignorance: Magnetometric Sensor Compensation; Gravimetric Sensor Compensation; Ladar Sensor Compensation; & Radar Sensor Compensation You will find what ships they best suit in the skill explanations. You mean ignorance like: Saying that Sensor Compensation skills will help against sensor dampening? Just a hint - they don't. Sensor strength only affects the likelihood of being jammed. Sensor dampeners, however, decrease lock-range. You, sir, are a full-blown moron. I would suggest you stop making vaguely condescending posts on topics you clearly do not know **** about.
Yes, raging at people who are wrong instead of just explaining why they're wrong is bound to get a positive reaction.
Being wrong about something in EVE =/= being a moron. Morons are those people with tiny IQs who jump to conclusions about people they know nothing about. Like yourself, for example. I have since discovered that these skills don't affect sensor dampening, and I'm happy to retract and admit I was wrong. See, that's what smart people do, they admit when they're wrong in the face of evidence. A moron would continue to argue, however, that they were right, evidence notwithstanding.
Or, alternatively, just call someone a moron because they made a mistake. That's a pretty moronic thing to do as well. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Mund Richard
34
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 03:18:00 -
[448] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Morar Santee wrote:You, sir, are a full-blown moron. I would suggest you stop making vaguely condescending posts on topics you clearly do not know **** about. Yes, raging at people who are wrong instead of just explaining why they're wrong is bound to get a positive reaction. Being wrong about something in EVE =/= being a moron. Morons are those people with tiny IQs who jump to conclusions about people they know nothing about. Like yourself, for example. I have since discovered that these skills don't affect sensor dampening, and I'm happy to retract and admit I was wrong. See, that's what smart people do, they admit when they're wrong in the face of evidence. A moron would continue to argue, however, that they were right, evidence notwithstanding.
You know, if you would have said so (at least the more polite part) the first time someone corrected you in this topic, it would have been better.
A few times it has been pointed out, yet somehow you managed to ignore it.
Now that you can add such (I must admit, it's quite well done) rethorics to it, you do.
Please increase my bounty if I misspelled anything, it's not like I'm using a language that's not even my secondary.
Now, let us get back on topic, anyone any new feedback on PVE, Drones, The new AI and You? On my part, I somehow had a bit more agro swap to my drones, and the rats favored splitting dps a bit more, making my job harder. Wasn't unmanageable, but shields of drones got down, and even the paint on the armor was scratched. At least battleships didn't want my goblins for dinner. But I haven't been to any mission with TD/Damp, or places where there could be UNintended full room agro. Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
387
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 03:24:00 -
[449] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote: You know, if you would have said so (at least the more polite part) the first time someone corrected you in this topic, it would have been better.
A few times it has been pointed out, yet somehow you managed to ignore it.
Or, I'm not on the forums 24/7 in order to notice every single post in order to read every single little post and response to what I have to say. This is the first I've seen someone correct me on the issue, and it happened only after I discovered for myself that the skills have no effect on damping. I have no problem with being proven wrong. In fact, I welcome it, because it means I learn something. I like learning things. Knowledge is power.
You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Tanthalassa
State War Academy Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 03:25:00 -
[450] - Quote
I gotta love how baltec and his stripe-faced trolling pal post in this thread. The 1st has 4kk in drones, the later has 12kk sp total. You two aren't even qualified to participate in the AI change vs Drones discussion.
If anyone has actually sizable amount of SP in drones, they wouldn't be as ignorant. 11.5kk drone sp here - that's half a year worth of training. Time is money (literally if you pay for the sub) and if most of that SP is of no use, it means you are sol, ha. But what do the trolls suggest? Let's see, someone in the thread has 20kk in drones? "Ha - pocket change, just a year of training, suck it up loser, adapt!"
If one happens to have skills that are not even affected by the recent changes, why does he bother to go and post some garbage in the thread? If a player's SP is mostly "dumped"(and it feels this way now) in drone boats and drones naturally, why does he have to crosstrain for amarr ships, or caldari, or even "better" npc faction ships GÇô Nightmare? If you happen to have the SP of yours and they still matter and actually are useful, don't troll the thead...
Every single "adapt" quote tossed in here means GÇ£crosstrainGÇ¥ so far.
And any suggestion to use electronic warfare in missions sounds "marvelous" for drone boats, which already suffer from split in weapon systems - drone modules vs turret dmg modules. Add electronic warfare modules on drone boats, the tank will diminish. Then add remote repair modules.. lol, no need to even continue the list, because the one and only perk that drones provide - no need for ammo - is outweighed by the perks the other systems got. UI for the drones is simply horrendous. Any MMO with any minion control mechanic should have better UI than what EvE offers.
And before most common - suck it up, you cannot afk missions any more - never afked in a single mission, since doing it actively beats it either way. If afking mattered so much for CCP, all they needed to do is remove aggressive mode for drones, that sure as hell would beat having whole room aggro on a set of light that get popped before they can even get targeted by the player. Of course it would be nice if we could actually use nanite repair paste on the drones. Even if we still cannot overheat them.
At any rate, I doubt anyone is going to refund the SP, a remap would be the least CCP could do, nobody in their right mind would bother to "adapt" to another raceGÇÖ/sGÇÖ ships with their lowest Per/Will, would they?
|
|
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
387
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 03:28:00 -
[451] - Quote
Tanthalassa wrote:I gotta love how baltec and his stripe-faced trolling pal post in this thread. The 1st has 4kk in drones, the later has 12kk sp total. You two aren't even qualified to participate in the AI change vs Drones discussion.
And yet, we've had no problems so far using using drones. Speaks volumes when people with lower skills are struggling less than people with high ones. Qualifications are determined by results, not SP. Kthxbai
EDIT: I don't know if you've noticed or not, but it is possible to buy characters with high skills as a brand new player to the game. There is one skill book that doesn't come with the game character, though, and it's called "Experience at EVE". It's not in the marketplace, because it only exists for the player him- or herself. Time spent on EVE is not a measure of this experience, and neither is SP. How fast you learn EVE and how much of how to do stuff is what matters. Skill points are secondary, increasing them makes things easier, but not having them doesn't make stuff impossible to experience. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
169
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 03:39:00 -
[452] - Quote
I love how many responses are "CCP is doing this to promote that".
CCP will do what makes them money. And if the drone change affects this it will be revisited. |
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
169
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 03:48:00 -
[453] - Quote
To the teamwork people:
L5's
Living in a WH
Living in Null
FW
Incursions
There are enough "teamwork" opportunities in game. And they pay a hell of alot more than L4's.
If I want to socialize I go out with real people, that I know, drink a real drink not called Quafe, then go home to my real home that is not a 20x15 futuristic dorm room. If I want to fly spaceships and interact as I please I play EvE.
There are alot of people like me and we pay our subs with real money. That is why CCP makes sure to have play options for all types of playstyles. |
Tanthalassa
State War Academy Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 03:57:00 -
[454] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Tanthalassa wrote:I gotta love how baltec and his stripe-faced trolling pal post in this thread. The 1st has 4kk in drones, the later has 12kk sp total. You two aren't even qualified to participate in the AI change vs Drones discussion. And yet, we've had no problems so far using using drones. Speaks volumes when people with lower skills are struggling less than people with high ones. Qualifications are determined by results, not SP. Kthxbai Stop making assumpions, pal. Did I mention anywhere in my post that I struggle?
It's sure as heck more efficient to do missions in a missle boat where you hit F1 one time, wrecks show up. Why do I have to go through bazillion drop-downs to get somewhat similar efficiency from my drones?
Do you solo lvl4 missions with your 12kk SP? What do you fly? And no - i don't need your fits just as I don't need your accusations of my character buying. Get off your high horse. |
Mund Richard
34
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 04:07:00 -
[455] - Quote
Tanthalassa wrote:I gotta love how baltec and his stripe-faced trolling pal post in this thread. Hmm..
They had several EWAR suggestions, working to variably questionable degrees, and while I personally didn't agree with any of them, my own solution is also using EWAR, go figure.
RR module on a ship means one less gun used in most cases, which is sub-optimal as far as mission completion time goes, aye. But that starts to go into the "drones as ammo" discussion.
The split weapon system trouble is indeed troublesome, but requires a thread dedicated unto itself, and (as I quite imagine there were a few rounds of it) even that may not help much.
Removing the aggressive stance on drones would have a funny side-effect on fighting Guristas... Or maybe not, living in gurista space, it has been lately a lot less worse than I thought it would be. Sensor comp skill at IV.
You didn't even mention the parts where they suggest downsizing guns in L4s to be better able to track/hit smaller ships, that he runs them not for the isk (efficience) but because he likes to shoot stuff and anyone doing it just for the isk is playing the wrong game, oh and suggesting the use of the caldari ewar for a caldari toon (take pride in your race!) against rats when there is too much hostile ewar incoming, would have loved to see him provide a fit on battleclinic, and then the replies to it. Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
388
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 04:07:00 -
[456] - Quote
Tanthalassa wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Tanthalassa wrote:I gotta love how baltec and his stripe-faced trolling pal post in this thread. The 1st has 4kk in drones, the later has 12kk sp total. You two aren't even qualified to participate in the AI change vs Drones discussion. And yet, we've had no problems so far using using drones. Speaks volumes when people with lower skills are struggling less than people with high ones. Qualifications are determined by results, not SP. Kthxbai Stop making assumpions, pal. Did I mention anywhere in my post that I struggle? It's sure as heck more efficient to do missions in a missle boat where you hit F1 one time, wrecks show up. Why do I have to go through bazillion drop-downs to get somewhat similar efficiency from my drones? Do you solo lvl4 missions with your 12kk SP? What do you fly? And no - i don't need your fits just as I don't need your accusations of my character buying. Get off your high horse.
1. Assumptions? I have no need for assumptions. You're making enough for both of us, assuming that I don't know what I'm talking about at all.
2. You wish I was your pal
3. And who's on their high horse that decides that their mighty elite excess of SP makes their opinion more valid and anyone with less suddenly unqualified to post?
Keep raging. I'm sure it will solve all your problems. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
388
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 04:16:00 -
[457] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:Tanthalassa wrote:I gotta love how baltec and his stripe-faced trolling pal post in this thread. Hmm.. They had several EWAR suggestions, working to variably questionable degrees, and while I personally didn't agree with any of them, my own solution is also using EWAR, go figure. RR module on a ship means one less gun used in most cases, which is sub-optimal as far as mission completion time goes, aye. But that starts to go into the "drones as ammo" discussion. The split weapon system trouble is indeed troublesome, but requires a thread dedicated unto itself, and (as I quite imagine there were a few rounds of it) even that may not help much. Removing the aggressive stance on drones would have a funny side-effect on fighting Guristas... Or maybe not, living in gurista space, it has been lately a lot less worse than I thought it would be. Sensor comp skill at IV. You didn't even mention the parts where they suggest downsizing guns in L4s to be better able to track/hit smaller ships, that he runs them not for the isk (efficience) but because he likes to shoot stuff and anyone doing it just for the isk is playing the wrong game, oh and suggesting the use of the caldari ewar for a caldari toon (take pride in your race!) against rats when there is too much hostile ewar incoming, would have loved to see him provide a fit on battleclinic, and then the replies to it.
Actually, for people that are genuinely looking for solutions, I've provided mine a few times. I'm not sure if I offered it here, on this thread, but I'm pretty sure I have given a hint of it. I have held it back for the most part because I'm pretty sure people aren't actually interested in trying new things and just want their comfy old level 4 missions back or something to complain about, but change happens, deal with it or leave.
And that hint is, the new AI is not favouring your drones, it's favouring targets of similar size. If you fly into a mission solo in a BS and launch drones, the frigs are going to prefer to go after your drones instead of your BS.
I'm sure people would rather complain about it than actually put some thought into it, though, so I'll explain it verbatim:
Level four missions are now best done in pairs. I say pairs, because one BS with a score of drones and one fast active-tanked frigate to draw NPC frigate aggro works every time. You don't even need to exploit this "aggro bug" I keep hearing about. Me and a mate have done it this way for six level 4 missions and lost one drone, total, and that was because he launched his drones before my dual rep incursus took aggro, and even then i still took most of the aggro. Frig pilot hits AB and DC, picks an anchor, orbits at top speed and picks off frigate targets of opportunity that stray within weapons range. Meanwhile, BS pilot deploys drones to actively hunt down frigate targets while drawing medium and large NPC aggro and returning fire. Once all frigs are destroyed, all attention is turned to NPC mediums and larges and everything dies quickly and efficiently, thus maximising isk/hour for both pilots involved and taking minimal losses. With the active tanked speed incursus and high frig skills, i haven't had to bail for repairs once, maintained the majority of frigate aggro to leave drones free and un-aggroed to actively engage NPC frigates.
As for EWAR - same tactic. Frigate draws small aggro, BS draws large, make EWAR targets primaries for drones, then once EWAR is dead, business as usual. Additionally, the new skills DO help against ECM NPCs. As for sensor dampening, most of that is delivered by frigates, which will be aggroing your frigate, leaving the BS to still establish targets and apply drones. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Theodoric Darkwind
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
203
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 04:26:00 -
[458] - Quote
They overdid it with the drone aggro in L4s, its nearly impossible to scrape off scramming frigs in a BS, also the domi, ishtar, gila and rattlesnake are now completely worthless for missions or complex running, or any anom with frigates.
the EWAR is the worst bit. 10 entire regions of nullsec just became nearly worthless to ratters (barring severe overcrowding of forsaken hubs). Havens and sanctums in gurista rat space are impossible due to the massive amounts of ECM and they are impossible in Blood Raider space due to insane neuts (a blood raider sanctum has soo much neuting power now that the rats can neut out a FREAKING TITAN in less than 1 minute).
Gurista and Blood Raider complexes are now impossible even with logi support as the rats spread their neuts and jams around to make your logi useless, unless you bring a blob sized fleet into the site. Its worse than incursions by a lot, incursion rats only focused their EWAR on the primary rather than spreading it around. |
Tanthalassa
State War Academy Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 04:38:00 -
[459] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:1. Assumptions? I have no need for assumptions. You're making enough for both of us, assuming that I don't know what I'm talking about at all. 2. You wish I was your pal 3. And who's on their high horse that decides that their mighty elite excess of SP makes their opinion more valid and anyone with less suddenly unqualified to post? Keep raging. I'm sure it will solve all your problems. Well, I am sorry if you feel inferior with your 12kk sp, otherwise you wouldn't read it that way. The reason you "aren't qualified" to post here, is because you clearly do not worry about having most of your offense in drone SP. If you are efficient with your skillpoints and having easy time - which all your posts simply imply, then it means you didn't not fly a drone boat solo in lvl4 as the patch hit. You do not care if "carebears" have issues with drones.
But you do care to come over and post snide comments sprinkled with "adapt" here and there, lol And the reason I solo is "pals" like you who just have to tell others how to play the game. |
Morar Santee
118
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 04:39:00 -
[460] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Morar Santee wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Urgg Boolean wrote:If soloing, what is the counter measure for the Serpentis damping now? Because "disposable drones" is not really an option or a viable strategy in my opinion. I'm happy to admit my ignorance if anybody has a great counter measure. Excellent. Then I would advise you check out the marketplace for four new skills so you may reduce your ignorance: Magnetometric Sensor Compensation; Gravimetric Sensor Compensation; Ladar Sensor Compensation; & Radar Sensor Compensation You will find what ships they best suit in the skill explanations. You mean ignorance like: Saying that Sensor Compensation skills will help against sensor dampening? Just a hint - they don't. Sensor strength only affects the likelihood of being jammed. Sensor dampeners, however, decrease lock-range. You, sir, are a full-blown moron. I would suggest you stop making vaguely condescending posts on topics you clearly do not know **** about. Yes, raging at people who are wrong instead of just explaining why they're wrong is bound to get a positive reaction. Being wrong about something in EVE =/= being a moron. Morons are those people with tiny IQs who jump to conclusions about people they know nothing about. Like yourself, for example. I have since discovered that these skills don't affect sensor dampening, and I'm happy to retract and admit I was wrong. See, that's what smart people do, they admit when they're wrong in the face of evidence. A moron would continue to argue, however, that they were right, evidence notwithstanding. Or, alternatively, just call someone a moron because they made a mistake. That's a pretty moronic thing to do as well.
It's funny, but every time you are involved in a discussion, the following steps inevitably happen, in this order:
1. You say something incredibly stupid in a condescending manner. 2. Someone calls you out on it. 3. You defend your incredibly stupid position due to astounding ignorance. 4. Someone calls you out on being a moron. 5. You claim people are jumping to conclusions.
So to make this clear: No, we are not jumping to conclusions. There is a pattern of you acting like a moron, so arriving at the conclusion that you are indeed a moron is sound logical deduction. Innit, Sir "I fit small guns on battleships, so everything's okay" Pollard. |
|
Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
352
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 05:07:00 -
[461] - Quote
Thank goodness for the "hide" icon next to Pollard's posts. Enabling this option has saved my forum IQ from a precipitous drop. What you want is irrelevant, what you've chosen is at hand. |
baltec1
Bat Country
3272
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 05:34:00 -
[462] - Quote
I think someone just tried to insult me for my drone sp before going on a rant about how they cant stop their drone from dying while mine are still alive and well... |
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
234
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 05:42:00 -
[463] - Quote
KIller Wabbit wrote:Merouk Baas wrote:Oh, it was tested. And feedback was given. And they pushed it anyway. EDIT: Posters above mean that maybe CCP doesn't want us to solo level 4 missions. and CCP maintains the course....
theyre good at that "listen to what they do not what they say" theyre not so good at learning from their mistakes
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
388
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 05:44:00 -
[464] - Quote
Tanthalassa wrote:Well, I am sorry if you feel inferior with your 12kk sp, otherwise you wouldn't read it that way.
Actually, I don't, I consider the fact that I am clearly doing better at EVE than you are with lower skills kinda speaks volumes about who's "inferior", particularly after you were the one who implied that lesser skills = unqualified to speak on the topic with your initial rage post.
Are you always this hypocritical and illogical? You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
234
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 05:45:00 -
[465] - Quote
so drones are worthless now other than to be used to throw at the mobs to escape is what youre saying? lol http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
388
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 05:50:00 -
[466] - Quote
Morar Santee wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Morar Santee wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Urgg Boolean wrote:If soloing, what is the counter measure for the Serpentis damping now? Because "disposable drones" is not really an option or a viable strategy in my opinion. I'm happy to admit my ignorance if anybody has a great counter measure. Excellent. Then I would advise you check out the marketplace for four new skills so you may reduce your ignorance: Magnetometric Sensor Compensation; Gravimetric Sensor Compensation; Ladar Sensor Compensation; & Radar Sensor Compensation You will find what ships they best suit in the skill explanations. You mean ignorance like: Saying that Sensor Compensation skills will help against sensor dampening? Just a hint - they don't. Sensor strength only affects the likelihood of being jammed. Sensor dampeners, however, decrease lock-range. You, sir, are a full-blown moron. I would suggest you stop making vaguely condescending posts on topics you clearly do not know **** about. Yes, raging at people who are wrong instead of just explaining why they're wrong is bound to get a positive reaction. Being wrong about something in EVE =/= being a moron. Morons are those people with tiny IQs who jump to conclusions about people they know nothing about. Like yourself, for example. I have since discovered that these skills don't affect sensor dampening, and I'm happy to retract and admit I was wrong. See, that's what smart people do, they admit when they're wrong in the face of evidence. A moron would continue to argue, however, that they were right, evidence notwithstanding. Or, alternatively, just call someone a moron because they made a mistake. That's a pretty moronic thing to do as well. It's funny, but every time you are involved in a discussion, the following steps inevitably happen, in this order: 1. You say something incredibly stupid in a condescending manner. 2. Someone calls you out on it. 3. You defend your incredibly stupid position due to astounding ignorance. 4. Someone calls you out on being a moron. 5. You claim people are jumping to conclusions. So to make this clear: No, we are not jumping to conclusions. There is a pattern of you acting like a moron, so arriving at the conclusion that you are indeed a moron is sound logical deduction. Innit, Sir " I fit small guns on battleships, so everything's okay" Pollard.
Yes, and yet, you're selectiveness of quoting my less-brilliant ideas indicates only that you're happy to ignore the better ones, and continue to whine and call people stupid for the simple fact that they disagree with you.
Once again, not knowing everything about EVE =/= moron. I will go you round for round in particle and quantum physics, language, and biochemistry, and win every time. Moron implies low intelligence, and I assure you, I am not low on intelligence. I actually already understood why mixing guns on ships is a bad idea, but everyone else was shitposting so I thought I'd join in. Fact is, I'd already been doing level 4s with a mate using the method I explained in a very recent post which you have quite happily ignored in lieu of cherrypicking my less-brilliant suggestions for the sake of calling me a moron because your tiny panties are all bunched up.
You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
388
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 05:51:00 -
[467] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Thank goodness for the "hide" icon next to Pollard's posts. Enabling this option has saved my forum IQ from a precipitous drop.
No, I think you were actually saved from a drop by it already being rock bottom - can't get much lower than that You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
ashley Eoner
70
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 05:55:00 -
[468] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Mund Richard wrote:Tanthalassa wrote:I gotta love how baltec and his stripe-faced trolling pal post in this thread. Hmm.. They had several EWAR suggestions, working to variably questionable degrees, and while I personally didn't agree with any of them, my own solution is also using EWAR, go figure. RR module on a ship means one less gun used in most cases, which is sub-optimal as far as mission completion time goes, aye. But that starts to go into the "drones as ammo" discussion. The split weapon system trouble is indeed troublesome, but requires a thread dedicated unto itself, and (as I quite imagine there were a few rounds of it) even that may not help much. Removing the aggressive stance on drones would have a funny side-effect on fighting Guristas... Or maybe not, living in gurista space, it has been lately a lot less worse than I thought it would be. Sensor comp skill at IV. You didn't even mention the parts where they suggest downsizing guns in L4s to be better able to track/hit smaller ships, that he runs them not for the isk (efficience) but because he likes to shoot stuff and anyone doing it just for the isk is playing the wrong game, oh and suggesting the use of the caldari ewar for a caldari toon (take pride in your race!) against rats when there is too much hostile ewar incoming, would have loved to see him provide a fit on battleclinic, and then the replies to it. Actually, for people that are genuinely looking for solutions, I've provided my best one a few times. I'm not sure if I offered it here, on this thread, but I'm pretty sure I have given a hint of it. I have held it back for the most part because I'm pretty sure people aren't actually interested in trying new things and just want their comfy old level 4 missions back or something to complain about, but change happens, deal with it or leave. And that hint is, the new AI is not favouring your drones, it's favouring targets of similar size. If you fly into a mission solo in a BS and launch drones, the frigs are going to prefer to go after your drones instead of your BS. I'm sure people would rather complain about it than actually put some thought into it, though, so I'll explain it verbatim: Level four missions are now best done in pairs. I say pairs, because one BS with a score of drones and one fast active-tanked frigate to draw NPC frigate aggro works every time. You don't even need to exploit this "aggro bug" I keep hearing about. Me and a mate have done it this way for six level 4 missions and lost one drone, total, and that was because he launched his drones before my dual rep incursus took aggro, and even then i still took most of the aggro. Frig pilot hits AB and DC, picks an anchor, orbits at top speed and picks off frigate targets of opportunity that stray within weapons range. Meanwhile, BS pilot deploys drones to actively hunt down frigate targets while drawing medium and large NPC aggro and returning fire. Once all frigs are destroyed, all attention is turned to NPC mediums and larges and everything dies quickly and efficiently, thus maximising isk/hour for both pilots involved and taking minimal losses. With the active tanked speed incursus and high frig skills, i haven't had to bail for repairs once, maintained the majority of frigate aggro to leave drones free and un-aggroed to actively engage NPC frigates. As for EWAR - same tactic. Frigate draws small aggro, BS draws large, make EWAR targets primaries for drones, then once EWAR is dead, business as usual. Additionally, the new skills DO help against ECM NPCs. As for sensor dampening, most of that is delivered by frigates, which will be aggroing your frigate, leaving the BS to still establish targets and apply drones. All the suggestions I've made are for people who insist on doing it solo. I have been trying to help, thinking outside the box, but all my suggestions have been shot down in mud. But did anyone else have any better ideas? Was anyone really trying to think of better ideas? You don't like my ideas, don't use them. But mock them before you've even tried them? Yep, very mature. Very constructive. Glad to see people are capable of thinking on their feet instead of just whining on the forums... oh, wait... Aggro defect bug whatever..
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158421#post2158421
Be better off just running the second toon in real battleship with t1 drones. |
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
235
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 05:58:00 -
[469] - Quote
all that says to me is "yeah we're pushing forward anyways. Your feedback means **** to us. and if you could come in on Saturday..."
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
389
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 06:03:00 -
[470] - Quote
Maybe. Our method works well, though, so I wouldn't be inclined to agree with "better" until we tried it. It would be less cost effective - battleships are expensive, frigates aren't, and even if the frigate pilot loses a ship (which shouldn't happen if they're tanking well), it's easy enough to have another one in reserve.
That post about the "bug" still doesn't appear to mention anything about drones, so I'm still running on the assumption that, regarding drones, the AI is working as intended. That is, until we get some clear communication from CCP... but even then, their silence on the drone issue but willingness to address known bugs with NPCs speaks fair volumes about the issue, IMO. I may be wrong, though, and I'll just wait and see. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
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Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
246
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 06:03:00 -
[471] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:YoYo NickyYo wrote:Dean Clarke wrote:A very fundamental part of the game has been broken. And yes, it is a game breaking issue for most drone users.
Not only that, but an "entire race" has been nerfed out of proportion.
Really, nothing much to discuss. It needs to be fixed ASAP. No..... While I agree that drones badly need to be updated, these changes should stay. This game has enough problems with static content, hopefully this is the first step in making Eve an interesting game to play. Indeed I am digging the new AI now that it's no longer ridiculously dumb about retargeting anything new to the room. Once they fix the un-nerfed ECM/dampener spam, the room pulls, and the aggressive drone killing the changes will be for the better.
Or more to the point, once they fix all the stuff they should have fixed before they threw drone boats under the bus, it will be fine.
Considering how much off penalty drone boats take for being drone boats, you would think they would have done it in the right order. R.I.P. Vile Rat |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1407
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 06:17:00 -
[472] - Quote
Why are people so upset about the new AI changes? I still throw out my drones & leave them out & they never die. It's about time CCP stops catering to the lazy players with this sense of entitlement for fear of losing money. These aren't the people making the game better, these are the people wanting you to turn EVE in to a game that is like most other MMO's. |
Morar Santee
119
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 06:23:00 -
[473] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Yes, and yet, you're selectiveness of quoting my less-brilliant ideas indicates only that you're happy to ignore the better ones, and continue to whine and call people stupid for the simple fact that they disagree with you.
Once again, not knowing everything about EVE =/= moron. I will go you round for round in particle and quantum physics, language, and biochemistry, and win every time. Moron implies low intelligence, and I assure you, I am not low on intelligence. I actually already understood why mixing guns on ships is a bad idea, but everyone else was shitposting so I thought I'd join in. Fact is, I'd already been doing level 4s with a mate using the method I explained in a very recent post which you have quite happily ignored in lieu of cherrypicking my less-brilliant suggestions for the sake of calling me a moron because your tiny panties are all bunched up.
So what you are trying to tell me is:
You are not actually stupid, you just happen to act like a moron more often than not.
Bubba.. I'm not sure that makes it any better. And while I can appreciate that you want to compare e-peen sizes... I just have no vested interest in your person, other than pointing out your condescending attitude happened to be oddly misplaced every time I had the misfortune to come across one of your posts. If that's any help: I will trust your word that you are the bigger ****. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
389
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 06:25:00 -
[474] - Quote
Morar Santee wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Yes, and yet, you're selectiveness of quoting my less-brilliant ideas indicates only that you're happy to ignore the better ones, and continue to whine and call people stupid for the simple fact that they disagree with you.
Once again, not knowing everything about EVE =/= moron. I will go you round for round in particle and quantum physics, language, and biochemistry, and win every time. Moron implies low intelligence, and I assure you, I am not low on intelligence. I actually already understood why mixing guns on ships is a bad idea, but everyone else was shitposting so I thought I'd join in. Fact is, I'd already been doing level 4s with a mate using the method I explained in a very recent post which you have quite happily ignored in lieu of cherrypicking my less-brilliant suggestions for the sake of calling me a moron because your tiny panties are all bunched up. So what you are trying to tell me is: You are not actually stupid, you just happen to act like a moron more often than not. Bubba.. I'm not sure that makes it any better. And while I can appreciate that you want to compare e-peen sizes... I just have no vested interest in your person, other than pointing out your condescending attitude happened to be oddly misplaced every time I had the misfortune to come across one of your posts. If that's any help: I will trust your word that you are the bigger ****.
Are you still raging at me? Honestly, you seem only capable of slinging invectives than having a discussion of any kind, hence why condescension is called for - it's all you're worth to me.
And wtf is "bubba"? Are you hitting on me?
Awkward You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
401
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 06:26:00 -
[475] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Why are people so upset about the new AI changes? I still throw out my drones & leave them out & they never die. Are they getting any aggro? Using Ewar? RR? Solo? Just did a mission and had a hobb II die when recalled from 20km away. Shields were near alpha'd. Started getting aggro as soon as drones fired on the frigate. Drone durability 4. No bonus to drone HP on the hull. Would a TP be able to draw them off? |
Morar Santee
119
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 06:32:00 -
[476] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Morar Santee wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Yes, and yet, you're selectiveness of quoting my less-brilliant ideas indicates only that you're happy to ignore the better ones, and continue to whine and call people stupid for the simple fact that they disagree with you.
Once again, not knowing everything about EVE =/= moron. I will go you round for round in particle and quantum physics, language, and biochemistry, and win every time. Moron implies low intelligence, and I assure you, I am not low on intelligence. I actually already understood why mixing guns on ships is a bad idea, but everyone else was shitposting so I thought I'd join in. Fact is, I'd already been doing level 4s with a mate using the method I explained in a very recent post which you have quite happily ignored in lieu of cherrypicking my less-brilliant suggestions for the sake of calling me a moron because your tiny panties are all bunched up. So what you are trying to tell me is: You are not actually stupid, you just happen to act like a moron more often than not. Bubba.. I'm not sure that makes it any better. And while I can appreciate that you want to compare e-peen sizes... I just have no vested interest in your person, other than pointing out your condescending attitude happened to be oddly misplaced every time I had the misfortune to come across one of your posts. If that's any help: I will trust your word that you are the bigger ****. Are you still raging at me? Honestly, you seem only capable of slinging invectives than having a discussion of any kind, hence why condescension is called for - it's all you're worth to me. And wtf is "bubba"? Are you hitting on me? Awkward
I thought you wanted to "go [me] round for round in [...] language". Is it already on? |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra Gallente Federation
391
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 07:47:00 -
[477] - Quote
Morar Santee wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Morar Santee wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Yes, and yet, you're selectiveness of quoting my less-brilliant ideas indicates only that you're happy to ignore the better ones, and continue to whine and call people stupid for the simple fact that they disagree with you.
Once again, not knowing everything about EVE =/= moron. I will go you round for round in particle and quantum physics, language, and biochemistry, and win every time. Moron implies low intelligence, and I assure you, I am not low on intelligence. I actually already understood why mixing guns on ships is a bad idea, but everyone else was shitposting so I thought I'd join in. Fact is, I'd already been doing level 4s with a mate using the method I explained in a very recent post which you have quite happily ignored in lieu of cherrypicking my less-brilliant suggestions for the sake of calling me a moron because your tiny panties are all bunched up. So what you are trying to tell me is: You are not actually stupid, you just happen to act like a moron more often than not. Bubba.. I'm not sure that makes it any better. And while I can appreciate that you want to compare e-peen sizes... I just have no vested interest in your person, other than pointing out your condescending attitude happened to be oddly misplaced every time I had the misfortune to come across one of your posts. If that's any help: I will trust your word that you are the bigger ****. Are you still raging at me? Honestly, you seem only capable of slinging invectives than having a discussion of any kind, hence why condescension is called for - it's all you're worth to me. And wtf is "bubba"? Are you hitting on me? Awkward I thought you wanted to "go [me] round for round in [...] language". Is it already on?
I said "language", no "jibberish"
Anyway, go read something for a little bit of perspective on why your hostility is in no way constructive and will solve nothing. In fact, the way people are complaining, I wouldn't blame CCP for ignoring the lot of you (or the majority, some people are actually being reasonable). In particular on that link:
"(4) Remember that other people are rational. If you find yourself confused why other players would do something in this way or that way or even at all, the answer is unlikely to be "because they're stupid". It's far more likely that they know something about what they're doing that you don't. It's also possible that they genuinely don't know something you do. That doesn't make them stupid or hateful, it just means they're unaware of some aspect of the game that they've not considered. Further, make sure ideas that you're proposing or objections that you're making don't rely on people being irrational and acting against their interests." You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Tanthalassa
State War Academy Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 07:48:00 -
[478] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:I think someone just tried to insult me for my drone sp before going on a rant about how they cant stop their drone from dying while mine are still alive and well... You two cannot read clearly. I don't have problems with my drones, my sentries are fine, but I don't appreciate that I have to undergo RTS-type micromanagement to survive in my gallente drone boat, while somebody can do same or superior type of dps at much better range with a press of single hotkey.
No, I don't see why I have to crosstrain to Nightmare, which you suggested multiple times. In any other MMO that would be a "reroll" suggestion. And my amount of drone SP does not imply any superiority, it is merely the amount of time invested into it versus amount of usability that I can get out of it. I.e. your gunnery SP amount most likely would trump mine. I'll give you a hint - I got sub 100 dps with my turrets. If one had most of their offense in the drones as primary weapon system, now they are pigeonholed into multiboxing, or running with a team mate, or switching to other race ships. That's what you probably are going to call "adaptation."
You guys just conveniently skip over "drone-boats, dedicated drone users" and if you think you read between the lines - nice work of imagination, just stay ignorant as always. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2272
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 07:52:00 -
[479] - Quote
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:They overdid it with the drone aggro in L4s, its nearly impossible to scrape off scramming frigs in a BS, also the domi, ishtar, gila and rattlesnake are now completely worthless for missions or complex running, or any anom with frigates.
the EWAR is the worst bit. 10 entire regions of nullsec just became nearly worthless to ratters (barring severe overcrowding of forsaken hubs). Havens and sanctums in gurista rat space are impossible due to the massive amounts of ECM and they are impossible in Blood Raider space due to insane neuts (a blood raider sanctum has soo much neuting power now that the rats can neut out a FREAKING TITAN in less than 1 minute).
Gurista and Blood Raider complexes are now impossible even with logi support as the rats spread their neuts and jams around to make your logi useless, unless you bring a blob sized fleet into the site. Its worse than incursions by a lot, incursion rats only focused their EWAR on the primary rather than spreading it around.
Didn't you read? Fit some 220mm cannons on your titan and you are set Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
baltec1
Bat Country
3280
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 08:00:00 -
[480] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Didn't you read? Fit some 220mm cannons on your titan and you are set
People did this |
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Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
64
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 08:01:00 -
[481] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Thank goodness for the "hide" icon next to Pollard's posts. Enabling this option has saved my forum IQ from a precipitous drop.
Yup, did the same long time ago. "Adapt" - means you have to stop using the ship you like and start flying Drake or Tengu like the rest nullbear newbs. |
Tanthalassa
State War Academy Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 08:24:00 -
[482] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:The carriers and rattlesnakes arnt having issues where I live either. Sounds like you dont like the fact that you now have to look after your drones rather than just letting them loose and going semi afk. I don't afk or what you call semi-afk, since i don't overtank. It is too risky to afk in any form. Plus sentries do not seem to work with afking all too well - if anything gets too close, they won't hit it.
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Morar Santee
120
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 08:34:00 -
[483] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Morar Santee wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Morar Santee wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Yes, and yet, you're selectiveness of quoting my less-brilliant ideas indicates only that you're happy to ignore the better ones, and continue to whine and call people stupid for the simple fact that they disagree with you.
Once again, not knowing everything about EVE =/= moron. I will go you round for round in particle and quantum physics, language, and biochemistry, and win every time. Moron implies low intelligence, and I assure you, I am not low on intelligence. I actually already understood why mixing guns on ships is a bad idea, but everyone else was shitposting so I thought I'd join in. Fact is, I'd already been doing level 4s with a mate using the method I explained in a very recent post which you have quite happily ignored in lieu of cherrypicking my less-brilliant suggestions for the sake of calling me a moron because your tiny panties are all bunched up. So what you are trying to tell me is: You are not actually stupid, you just happen to act like a moron more often than not. Bubba.. I'm not sure that makes it any better. And while I can appreciate that you want to compare e-peen sizes... I just have no vested interest in your person, other than pointing out your condescending attitude happened to be oddly misplaced every time I had the misfortune to come across one of your posts. If that's any help: I will trust your word that you are the bigger ****. Are you still raging at me? Honestly, you seem only capable of slinging invectives than having a discussion of any kind, hence why condescension is called for - it's all you're worth to me. And wtf is "bubba"? Are you hitting on me? Awkward I thought you wanted to "go [me] round for round in [...] language". Is it already on? I said "language", not "jibberish"
Exactly. You are not good at the "language" part. That is what I have been trying to communicate to you, but unfortunately.. you are not good at the "language" part. So you don't get it.
This boils down to you not being as intelligent as you think you are, and most definitely not nearly as intelligent as you would want other people to believe you are. Good news is: As I'm just trying to help you along the way of outing yourself as a moron, there's definitely a lot of visible progress.
Of course you can keep making an ass out of yourself on the interwebs by posting evidently borderline-******** drivel in every thread voicing legitimate criticism of game mechanics.. but you should at least realize that your obvious ignorance isn't helping your cause. If there is one. At this stage, I'd almost prefer believing you are just another mediocre troll. Because if that is genuine stupidity at work, then heaven help us. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2273
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 08:47:00 -
[484] - Quote
Morar Santee wrote:Of course you can keep making an ass out of yourself on the interwebs by posting evidently borderline-******** drivel in every thread voicing legitimate criticism of game mechanics.. but you should at least realize that your obvious ignorance isn't helping your cause. If there is one. At this stage, I'd almost prefer believing you are just another mediocre troll. Because if that is genuine stupidity at work, then heaven help us.
In fact it takes a specific kind of individual to not get simple concepts like:
"A fix against AFK missioning that - by a developer's word - actually made no change whatsoever is a stupid fix".
"A missioning challenge increase only affecting 1 race specialty out of 4 is stupid too. All 4 races should find more challenge".
Now I'll let the dumb drivel keep flowing, thanks for listening. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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ISD TYPE40
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3303
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 08:57:00 -
[485] - Quote
Forum Rules wrote:
4. Be respectful of others at all times.
The purpose of the forum is to provide a platform for the exchange of ideas. Occasionally, there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Be courteous when disagreeing with others. It is possible to disagree without being insulting.
5. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a long-winded, redundant post, often filled with angry, non-constructive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and helpful in the development of the game, but rants are disruptive and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise, clear manner and avoid going off on rambling tangents.
6. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another. Text of this nature is not beneficial to the community spirit and will not be tolerated. Corporation, faction and alliance members and other players are cautioned to avoid allowing GÇ£in characterGÇ¥ disputes from becoming "out of character" personal attacks. The game is designed for role-playing and/or portraying a role and it is sometimes easy for tempers to flare when the lines between the virtual world and the real world are crossed. Please keep in-game disputes in the game and off the forum unless it is clearly a mutual, in-character exchange.
7. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is the word used to describe a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players. Posts of this nature are disruptive and do not contribute to the sense of community we want for our forums.
This thread is locked for multiple breaches of the above rules - ISD Type40. ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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