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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2925
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 06:44:00 -
[31] - Quote
Asmodai Xodai wrote:I will be paying more. If I continue to completion now (if that's even possible - I may not have enough time), I will have paid much much more than what everyone else will be charged. If I stop now, and start again with the new plan, I will be paying much much more than what everyone else is charged. I don't know why this is a hard concept for you to grasp. Most people have an intuitive sense of justice, and what is fair and what isn't. The overwhelming number of people I've ever known would easily say "yes, this doesn't seem fair or right." The people here aren't saying that, they are saying the opposite.
The people here seem to be masochists who enjoy experiencing pain. Fine, I didn't come here looking for a fight, and I didn't come here to argue. If people think it's just peachy keen that they can spend weeks throwing SP out the window, fine. It's your game.
I'm not responding to anything else you said in your post, because quite frankly I understand little of your view on this or what motivates it or where you are coming from.
If you continue now, you will be paying the exact amount that you thought you would for the ability you wanted. If (assuming there's more than 17d-overlap left in your training) you stop now and resume after the Summer expansion, you will be paying less than you were willing to and thought you would for the ability you wanted. If there's less than 17d-overlap left in your training, then you have 2-3 months to complete that 2 weeks of training and end up paying the exact amount that you thought you would for the ability you wanted.
You are either going to be paying the exact amount you were willing to pay, or less than you were willing to pay.
What other people will be paying is entirely irrelevant. Again, does the supermarket send you a check when Milk goes on sale the day after you buy a gallon?
If you confuse "understanding the concept of sunk costs" with "being a masochist," then I guess you've got me pegged.  This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
1311
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 06:51:00 -
[32] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote:Someone shoot me, I'm on the same side of an argument as Krixtal Icefluxor. He's gotten much better as of late. I think the GEWNS cured him or something... If you're not already part of a bloc, this is the best guy for CSM8. |

Jonah Gravenstein
Universal Corporate Repossession Inc.
6168
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 06:56:00 -
[33] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:Psychotic Monk wrote:Someone shoot me, I'm on the same side of an argument as Krixtal Icefluxor. He's gotten much better as of late. I think the GEWNS cured him or something...
It's an imposter, will the real Krixtal Icefluxor please stand up.
@ the OP, no, it's been discussed to death, you're not getting an SP refund.
Eve in a nutshell, it's you vs the universe, and every machiavellian space bastard in it. |

Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
243
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 07:01:00 -
[34] - Quote
Asmodai Xodai wrote:Quote:Maybe if there was some way in-game to choose that you were specifically training for Ship A, and they changed the requirements for Ship A while you were training for it, THEN you might be able to get reimbursed. Obviously there is no such mechanism. I can think of a mechanism. CCP could simply say that we could convert (or trade) skillpoints used for training these ships into skillpoints for something else. That would be totally fair, and I would accept that.
So.. "I invested early and it cost more for me to gain advantages back then. Now it won't cost as much time & effort so I want back what it cost me to gain advantages back then!!!"
Yes, I agree it's a whine post and no, I don't think a reimbursement is in order.
I bet you get really hacked off when Steam runs its sales and a game you bought a year or so ago is now cheaper. Damn that must upset the hell out of you. |

Roime
Shiva Furnace
2169
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 07:21:00 -
[35] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote:Someone shoot me, I'm on the same side of an argument as Krixtal Icefluxor.
Sad but true! 
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |

Verlaine Glariant
Amphysvena
23
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 07:27:00 -
[36] - Quote
Unsurprisingly enough I am seeing a noticeable amount of monocles in this thread. www.amphysvena.org |

RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2925
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 07:31:00 -
[37] - Quote
Verlaine Glariant wrote:Unsurprisingly enough I am seeing a noticeable amount of monocles in this thread.
"Odin gave his eye to acquire knowledge, but I would give far more."
This thread is now about History channel's shocking return to presenting TV shows that are actually related to, well, History. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
875
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 07:41:00 -
[38] - Quote
I didn't get reimbursed when they changed the Punisher from an autocannon ship to a laser ship  |

Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2624
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 08:14:00 -
[39] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:
Also, this isn't the first thread where the above has been explained ad nauseaum.
This also isn't the first time skills have been changed in such a way & no one has ever received a skill reimbursment. The only time skill points should ever be refunded is in the case of a complete skill removal. Get over it OP. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |

Arronicus
Vintas Industries Mistakes Were Made.
308
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 08:16:00 -
[40] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Asmodai Xodai wrote:Quote:But apparently that is a difficult concept, and whiny give-me-give-me-give-me crybabies deserve to have their hand held, and everything given to them that they want, even if it is a measly 30 days of SP Finally, my first forum idiot. Listen moron, I'm no whiny give-me-give-me crybaby. I'm the one arguing for new skillplans to take as long as old ones. I don't want anything given to me on a silver platter. That includes stuff I haven't trained for yet, not just stuff I've sunk a bunch of useless SP into. I want to be sitting in a titan one day. But I don't want it given to me in a day. If it takes a year as things stand right now, I don't want it altered to downwards. You're just another tool with knee jerk reactions to defend the status quo. Fine by me, but don't call me the whiny crybaby. Go look in the mirror. Now, that's what I call a strong reaction.
3/8/2013: The day Asmodai's feelings were irrevocably hurt by a generalized statement. If you aren't one of the ones asking for a reimbursement of skills, then I would LIKE to think that you have enough active braincells in your head, to realize my comment wasn't directed at you. Guess I don't always get what I like... |

Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
304
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:12:00 -
[41] - Quote
Already seen quite a few threads regarding this, and like all the times its happened in the past, CCP isn't likely to refund you any skillpoints.
What about the itty 5? Bet loads of people spent the weeks required to train that. That too is going to be made redundant by the changes. But, we've got no choice but to just go with CCP. Thats how they roll. Post with your main, like a BOSS! |

Djana Libra
The Black Ops Black Core Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:36:00 -
[42] - Quote
yes I to want SP back because I trained for a ship and use it outside the intended use....
you could have just trained for a freighter... |

Whitehound
1157
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 10:54:00 -
[43] - Quote
People who are not affected by it - the majority - do not want you to have a reimbursement. It is the standard trolling.
Technically is nothing wrong with giving you your skill points back and allowing you to reallocate these. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |

Arronicus
Vintas Industries Mistakes Were Made.
308
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:05:00 -
[44] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:People who are not affected by it - the majority - do not want you to have a reimbursement. It is the standard trolling.
Technically is nothing wrong with giving you your skill points back and allowing you to reallocate these.
Except that it would open the biggest pandora's box of reimbursement demands the game, or probably any online game has ever seen. You sir, are blinder than an unborn mole, if you cannot see that. From a TECHNICAL standpoint, reimbursing skillpoints, where no skills were removed from the game, would be highly destructive. |

Whitehound
1158
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:08:00 -
[45] - Quote
Arronicus wrote:Whitehound wrote:People who are not affected by it - the majority - do not want you to have a reimbursement. It is the standard trolling.
Technically is nothing wrong with giving you your skill points back and allowing you to reallocate these. Except that it would open the biggest pandora's box of reimbursement demands the game, or probably any online game has ever seen. You sir, are blinder than an unborn mole, if you cannot see that. From a TECHNICAL standpoint, reimbursing skillpoints, where no skills were removed from the game, would be highly destructive. Oh shut up. There, box closed. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |

Dave Stark
1925
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:20:00 -
[46] - Quote
oh look, this thread again. you're tired, stop posting. |

Roime
Shiva Furnace
2171
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:20:00 -
[47] - Quote
Whether or not you use the skills you have trained out of your free will doesn't make a cause for reimbursement. It's your own personal choice not to mine even after training for a mining ship.
I trained Orca to haul stuff and ships for pvp, and close wormholes. I dealt with the annoying barge V by buying a rettie from a friend, and mining enough ore to pay for the Orca. And I still have the skills to mine whenever I feel like it. Granted, that's not very often :D, but CCP is not responsible for my gameplay preferences.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |

Roime
Shiva Furnace
2171
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:21:00 -
[48] - Quote
Whether or not you use the skills you have trained out of your free will doesn't make a cause for reimbursement. It's your own personal choice not to mine even after training for a mining ship.
I trained Orca to haul stuff and ships for pvp, and close wormholes. I dealt with the annoying barge V by buying a rettie from a friend, and mining enough ore to pay for the Orca. And I still have the skills to mine whenever I feel like it. Granted, thatoften, but CCP is not responsible for my gameplay preferences.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |

Roime
Shiva Furnace
2171
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:23:00 -
[49] - Quote
No need to fix these forums. Working as intended.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |

Xearal
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
507
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:28:00 -
[50] - Quote
OP, I can see your point in having the situation where you're partially done training up for that orca, and now see that a whole bunch of skills you already trained for it have become unnessesary and basicly now 'wasted'.
Think of this as the price of progress.. the new ways that ships are skilled for is a log more intuitive, and productive than the old way. However, just like with any dynamic system where you change the parameters, some parts of the system will suffer from such changes, even if on the overall it improves. You just happened to hold the short end of the stick in this case.
However, letting people file reimbursement requests to fix all the little bits of said dynamic system ( Eve ), and adjucating if they are 'valid' or not is a huuuge pandora's box you really don't want CCP to open, as it will create a MASSIVE workload to process all such requests, more than working out, planning and implementing these changes in themselves are costing. A blanked 'reimburse' of all skills that are affected by this so people can reallocate them to what they want is also not something you want, because this will again open another pandora's box where there's a huge amount of people who now have unallocated skillpoints they can spend on whatever they want, creating a mass change in what people fly/do. This reimburse would massively benefit all the old vets who trained up said skills ages ago for their shinies, and now can spend them on even more different shinies. Creating another gap between newer players who this is supposed to benefit vs the old vets that have a zillion points in everything.
When I first started Eve, I trained up for mining ships, which I now never use because I have better/more interesting things to do than stare at asteroids all day. If I were to be reimbursed, I would be dropping those mining skills for more pew pew, or other skills that I need for my current activities. Making me suddenly leap ahead of anyone who is just starting out in such a field compared to me, because I have those unallocated SPs, and they don't. Thus, I would be given an even longer end of the stick than you're getting the short end. As I would have had the benefit of the old orca, the mining skills etc.. in the past, and am now free to reinvest that old investment of time into new ventures.
I'm closing on the 71M skillpoints mark, but if I had t redo my character from scratch, I would have made a whooole lot of different choices on the skills I've been training the last 4 years. Any reimburse of such old skills would only give me a massive benefit, as it would allow me to 'correct' such 'mistakes'.
A newer player however, would not get such a benefit, as they would not have the previous 'sunk' investment of skillpoints to reinvest, nor the benefit of being able to reinvest them into new ventures.
|

Asmodai Xodai
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:40:00 -
[51] - Quote
Quote:If you continue now, you will be paying the exact amount that you thought you would for the ability you wanted. If (assuming there's more than 17d-overlap left in your training) you stop now and resume after the Summer expansion, you will be paying less than you were willing to and thought you would for the ability you wanted. If there's less than 17d-overlap left in your training, then you have 2-3 months to complete that 2 weeks of training and end up paying the exact amount that you thought you would for the ability you wanted.
You are either going to be paying the exact amount you were willing to pay, or less than you were willing to pay.
What other people will be paying is entirely irrelevant. Again, does the supermarket send you a check when Milk goes on sale the day after you buy a gallon?
If you confuse "understanding the concept of sunk costs" with "being a masochist," then I guess you've got me pegged.
You keep quoting 'sunk costs' like it is some kind of magical term or something. It sounds like you just got out of a business class. 'Sunk costs' is irrelevant here, because I'm not asking what decision I should make going forward from this moment.
As to the remainder of what you wrote, I will try once again. Same exact scenario we have now, but let's change some parameters.
1. First, let's put YOUR skin in the game. It isn't me that is affected by this, but YOU.
2. You didn't just lose a month or two skilling into something. Let's say you lost 2 full years. Yes, two full years because CCP came out with some new ultra-mega titan, and you wanted it. You teched straight to it, foregoing everything else you could have teched (economy, cruisers, battleships, etc). You stayed in frigates so you could tech to this.
3. The skill points which went into this ultra-mega titan can't go into anything else. They are useless outside of the mega-titan.
4. You aren't some veteran player who has teched to everything else he could possibly want and has nothing else he could throw skill points into (in other words, you aren't someone who stands to lose little if skill points are thrown away). You are a newer player who has teched to virtually nothing.
Now, when you are a few weeks away from getting into this death star, CCP pulls the rug out from under you, and lets all players get into it inside of a week.
All I did here was take the same situation and adjust variables (length of time spent teching, etc) to try and find out if this makes any difference to you or not. If it does, then we agree and you are simply quibbling about details thinking they have an effect on the general principle when they don't. If it doesn't, you are a troll, an alien, or a masochist. |

Dave Stark
1926
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:42:00 -
[52] - Quote
hey ccp, i trained X skill even though i don't use it, can i get the SP reimbursed because i feel i should be entitled to have it refunded for no real reason what so ever other than i was stupid enough to train a skill i'm never going to use. you're tired, stop posting. |

Whitehound
1159
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 11:53:00 -
[53] - Quote
Roime wrote:Whether or not you use the skills you have trained out of your free will doesn't make a cause for reimbursement. It's your own personal choice not to mine even after training for a mining ship. True.
Only is CCP going to change it, because CCP thinks these skill choices are unnecessary.
Many players knew about the lack of necessity, but accepted it as a part of the requirement for getting into an Orca, or else could they not have gotten into it. There was simply no choice for them.
The reason for why a reimbursement should be given is not just because a few players want it, this sure will always be the case when skills change, but because CCP is making this change and it invalidates players' skill choices of the past.
I am sure many Orca pilots will have trained Exhumers I in addition just to profit from this in their own way. These players should not get a reimbursement as they not only accepted it but used it for further training. Only those who did not should be allowed to reallocate some of their skill points. It is likely a very small group of people and also the reason why the discussion on this is largely biased, because most of who post here will not be part of this group. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |

Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2844
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 12:28:00 -
[54] - Quote
This topic got dicussed to exhaustion in another thread, thus this one should be locked.
Not that i have a say in this anyway. People should get punished for not using the search function.
No amount of words will get you skillpoints! |

brinelan
The Flying Dead Dauntless.
22
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 12:41:00 -
[55] - Quote
you are complaining about a bit over 37 days of training to get into a ship where the skill training requirements changes were discussed in detail about 30 days ago, and the forums exploded with threads exactly like this about 30 days ago... and the dev blog explained in detail about the answer to your very post... |

Danks
Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds
136
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 12:50:00 -
[56] - Quote
Asmodai Xodai wrote: First, let's put YOUR skin in the game. It isn't me that is affected by this, but YOU.
Hi! I am also affected by this. Well, my alt is. I do not feel there should be a reimbursement of these skills. Just because they no longer apply to a certain ship does not make them irrelevant.
I also agree that a reimbursement would open up a ****** can of worms that no one really wants. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13138
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 13:10:00 -
[57] - Quote
Asmodai Xodai wrote:As to the remainder of what you wrote, I will try once again. Same exact scenario we have now, but let's change some parameters.
2. You didn't just lose a month or two skilling into something. Let's say you lost 2 full years. Yes, two full years because CCP came out with some new ultra-mega titan, and you wanted it. You teched straight to it, foregoing everything else you could have teched (economy, cruisers, battleships, etc). You stayed in frigates so you could tech to this.
3. The skill points which went into this ultra-mega titan can't go into anything else. They are useless outside of the mega-titan. GǪand you're already off the rails by discussing a scenario that is in no way related to the Orca change.
Quote: All I did here was take the same situation and adjust variables (length of time spent teching, etc) to try and find out if this makes any difference to you or not. No, what you did was alter the scenario to something that has never happened in the game and which becomes so hypothetical and so lacking in detail as to provide no grounds for determining what would be a reasonable response. Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |

Wacktopia
Noir.
478
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 13:19:00 -
[58] - Quote
No skill point reimbursement. Ever.
You train a skill at a time for a reason and that's the end of it. The bottom line is that now I have one of those annoying signatures. |

Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2625
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 13:38:00 -
[59] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:What about the itty 5? Bet loads of people spent the weeks required to train that. That too is going to be made redundant by the changes. But, we've got no choice but to just go with CCP. Thats how they roll.
Actually it won't be redundant at all. The itty V will still be more awesome than the others when you have the gallente industrial skill trained to 5 & it will be awful if you only have it trained to 1. Having a race specific industrial skill also allow you to train for freighters. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |

Asmodai Xodai
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 13:38:00 -
[60] - Quote
I guess these forums are dominated by idiots or trolls. So I'm done here. Good day. |
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