Also, what do current Orca pilots think of the fact that it took them 49 days to get into this ship, and the new system will be 17 days?

But will 17 days mean you can 'fly it well' ?

That depends on what you plan to use it for.. If you want a 'small' freighter to move your stuff around, 17 days is pretty much all you need to get 180k m3 cargo, 40k fleet cargo hold and a nice big assembled ship hold. A friend of mine used his orca mainly to move his entire 'missioning' fleet of ships he used for various kinds of missions in it from hub to hub when he wanted to change which corp/faction/whatever he was missioning for.

To fly it 'well' in the sense as the guy smoking a cigar while miners around him are being boosted by his awesome presence, that will take a lot longer, but still shorter than what you need now, as you will no longer need to be able to fly a barge and such to get into that orca. So basicly, you can skill up a toon for sitting in that orca, who isn't even capable of mining themselves. Only able to tell people how to mine better ;)

I can fly an orca, and yes, it's annoying that I had to train up all kinds of skills that aren't needed to use said orca. I'm happy that they are removed though, the changes in training make skilling up for a ship much more sense. You train for what you want to fly, not a whole bunch of other skills you don't need to fly whatever it is you want to fly.

No, it's not wasted. No, you won't be reimbursed. No, you shouldn't be reimbursed. Yes, you should get over it.

Also, what do current Orca pilots think of the fact that it took them 49 days to get into this ship, and the new system will be 17 days?

I'm happy that they are removed though, the changes in training make skilling up for a ship much more sense.

It's not irrelevant to my feelings, man!

Also, hi Ruby. How have you been?

I agree that the new tech tree makes much more sense, and I like it too. I just don't like that some people had to waste a ton of time sinking skill points into something and it was all useless and a waste, and no kind of reimbursement for it. Furthermore, someone under the new system doesn't have to make that sacrifice. "Tough noogies" doesn't seem to be a good explanation here.

But will 17 days mean you can 'fly it well' ?

That any new Orca alts I might want will take less time to train... Unless you have a time machine, the current price for a good that you own but cannot sell (i.e. a Sunk cost) is irrelevant.

What CCP has done is lower the barrier for competition.This is not the same as making a skill useless.

Every definition comes with context. This is true for "sunk cost". It does not apply in this case as there was no alternative such as I can expend 49 days to fly Orca A or 39 days to fly Orca B. If you wanted to fly an Orca in the past it was 49 days.

You are misconstruing that all costs in the past are sunk.

The correct measure is opportunity cost. At the time of deciding to train an Orca there was an opportunity cost, train an Orca or spend my skill points on something else.

What CCP has done is lower the barrier for competition.This is not the same as making a skill useless.

2) The SP is not a waste. You got the benefit you paid for, at the time you paid for it, and at a price you were willing to pay. Does your car dealership send you a check if they sell an identical car to someone else at a lower price?

3) CCP has never reimbursed SP for still extant and useful skills.

]All unrecoverable costs in the past are sunk, and should be ignored when making decisions.

What CCP has done is lower the barrier for competition.This is not the same as making a skill useless.

Yep. And not a compelling reason for reimbursing anything.

There's nothing "still extant and useful" about it. I'm not using the skills for anything. I didn't want them for anything but Orca. It was just a waste. The reason I guess you don't care is, it probably doesn't affect you.

[quote=Nexus Day]Is CCP deciding to make everything easy all of a sudden?

I agree that the new tech tree makes much more sense, and I like it too. I just don't like that some people had to waste a ton of time sinking skill points into something and it was all useless and a waste, and no kind of reimbursement for it.

Your analogies don't work for several reasons, but I will just cover one. I didn't get any benefit of anything. Like I said, I didn't finish the training, I just dumped God knows how many weeks into training for it before I stopped after reading that blog post.

The better analogy would be that I was on a payment plan to get the car. I was dumping paycheck money into it when I could have been dumping my money into something else. Now the dealership comes along and says it is altering my payment plan. Most of the money I have paid so far doesn't count for anything. But the good news is, I can start a new payment plan and get into the car anyway, for less money than what the other plan cost (except, well, I already paid a lot of money under the old plan).[quote]

In your analogy, the dealership is also giving you more than enough notice for you to complete your current payment plan.

So, you're upset that you're paying the same or less for the car than you originally agreed to pay?

The training time you have spent already is irrelevant.
If less than [New Training Time] remains on your current training queue, finish the old queue.
If more than [New Training Time] remains on your current training queue, decide if the 3 month wait is worth it, and celebrate that you're paying less than you expected.

[quote]There's nothing "still extant and useful" about it. I'm not using the skills for anything. I didn't want them for anything but Orca. It was just a waste. The reason I guess you don't care is, it probably doesn't affect you.

But apparently that is a difficult concept, and whiny give-me-give-me-give-me crybabies deserve to have their hand held, and everything given to them that they want, even if it is a measly 30 days of SP

Finally, my first forum idiot.

Listen moron, I'm no whiny give-me-give-me crybaby. I'm the one arguing for new skillplans to take as long as old ones. I don't want anything given to me on a silver platter. That includes stuff I haven't trained for yet, not just stuff I've sunk a bunch of useless SP into. I want to be sitting in a titan one day. But I don't want it given to me in a day. If it takes a year as things stand right now, I don't want it altered to downwards.

You're just another tool with knee jerk reactions to defend the status quo. Fine by me, but don't call me the whiny crybaby. Go look in the mirror.

Also, hi Ruby. How have you been?

So, you're upset that you're paying the same or less for the car than you originally agreed to pay?

Maybe if there was some way in-game to choose that you were specifically training for Ship A, and they changed the requirements for Ship A while you were training for it, THEN you might be able to get reimbursed. Obviously there is no such mechanism.

The people here seem to be masochists who enjoy experiencing pain. Fine, I didn't come here looking for a fight, and I didn't come here to argue. If people think it's just peachy keen that they can spend weeks throwing SP out the window, fine. It's your game.

I

I will be paying more. If I continue to completion now (if that's even possible - I may not have enough time), I will have paid much much more than what everyone else will be charged. If I stop now, and start again with the new plan, I will be paying much much more than what everyone else is charged. I don't know why this is a hard concept for you to grasp. Most people have an intuitive sense of justice, and what is fair and what isn't. The overwhelming number of people I've ever known would easily say "yes, this doesn't seem fair or right." The people here aren't saying that, they are saying the opposite.

The people here seem to be masochists who enjoy experiencing pain. Fine, I didn't come here looking for a fight, and I didn't come here to argue. If people think it's just peachy keen that they can spend weeks throwing SP out the window, fine. It's your game.

I'm not responding to anything else you said in your post, because quite frankly I understand little of your view on this or what motivates it or where you are coming from.

Someone shoot me, I'm on the same side of an argument as Krixtal Icefluxor.

He's gotten much better as of late. I think the GEWNS cured him or something...

I can think of a mechanism. CCP could simply say that we could convert (or trade) skillpoints used for training these ships into skillpoints for something else. That would be totally fair, and I would accept that.

Someone shoot me, I'm on the same side of an argument as Krixtal Icefluxor.

Unsurprisingly enough I am seeing a noticeable amount of monocles in this thread.

Also, this isn't the first thread where the above has been explained ad nauseaum.

Now, that's what I call a strong reaction.

People who are not affected by it - the majority - do not want you to have a reimbursement. It is the standard trolling.

Technically is nothing wrong with giving you your skill points back and allowing you to reallocate these.

Except that it would open the biggest pandora's box of reimbursement demands the game, or probably any online game has ever seen. You sir, are blinder than an unborn mole, if you cannot see that. From a TECHNICAL standpoint, reimbursing skillpoints, where no skills were removed from the game, would be highly destructive.

If you continue now, you will be paying the exact amount that you thought you would for the ability you wanted.
If (assuming there's more than 17d-overlap left in your training) you stop now and resume after the Summer expansion, you will be paying less than you were willing to and thought you would for the ability you wanted.
If there's less than 17d-overlap left in your training, then you have 2-3 months to complete that 2 weeks of training and end up paying the exact amount that you thought you would for the ability you wanted.

You are either going to be paying the exact amount you were willing to pay, or less than you were willing to pay.

What other people will be paying is entirely irrelevant. Again, does the supermarket send you a check when Milk goes on sale the day after you buy a gallon?


If you confuse "understanding the concept of sunk costs" with "being a masochist," then I guess you've got me pegged.

Whether or not you use the skills you have trained out of your free will doesn't make a cause for reimbursement. It's your own personal choice not to mine even after training for a mining ship.

First, let's put YOUR skin in the game. It isn't me that is affected by this, but YOU.

As to the remainder of what you wrote, I will try once again. Same exact scenario we have now, but let's change some parameters.

2. You didn't just lose a month or two skilling into something. Let's say you lost 2 full years. Yes, two full years because CCP came out with some new ultra-mega titan, and you wanted it. You teched straight to it, foregoing everything else you could have teched (economy, cruisers, battleships, etc). You stayed in frigates so you could tech to this.

3. The skill points which went into this ultra-mega titan can't go into anything else. They are useless outside of the mega-titan.

All I did here was take the same situation and adjust variables (length of time spent teching, etc) to try and find out if this makes any difference to you or not.

What about the itty 5? Bet loads of people spent the weeks required to train that. That too is going to be made redundant by the changes. But, we've got no choice but to just go with CCP. Thats how they roll.

I guess these forums are dominated by idiots or trolls. So I'm done here. Good day.

Actually it won't be redundant at all. The itty V will still be more awesome than the others when you have the gallente industrial skill trained to 5 & it will be awful if you only have it trained to 1. Having a race specific industrial skill also allow you to train for freighters.

I agree that the new tech tree makes much more sense, and I like it too. I just don't like that some people had to waste a ton of time sinking skill points into something and it was all useless and a waste, and no kind of reimbursement for it. Furthermore, someone under the new system doesn't have to make that sacrifice. "Tough noogies" doesn't seem to be a good explanation here.

CCP MAY FIND IT NECESSARY ON OCCASION TO MAKE CHANGES TO OR RESET CERTAIN PARAMETERS OF THE PERSISTENT GAME WORLD MECHANICS, INTERFACE OR FEATURES OF EVE ONLINE IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN GAME BALANCE AND ENHANCE PLAYABILITY OR PERFORMANCE FOR ITS SUBSCRIBERS. THESE CHANGES MAY AFFECT OR CAUSE SETBACKS FOR THE CHARACTERS YOUGÇÖVE CREATED.

only thing is, they've not rebalanced the industrials yet so the fact that the current itty V beats every other t1 industrial is irrelevant even with the upcoming skill changes.

even so i'm pretty sure the current itty V at gallente industrial I is still bigger in terms of cargo capacity than any of the others at industrial V.

True, but he was arguing that the ship will be redunant, when it clearly isn't.

I did not write this screaming part. It's from here. Terms of service.

It does not mean we cannot discuss it or that you can use it to shut up discussions.

You people really worry too much over stuff you believe you will not be getting anyway.

I feel hard done by

I guess these forums are dominated by idiots or trolls. So I'm done here. Good day.

You can discuss all you want and I don't care if this thread goes on for another 20 pages.

I guess these forums are dominated by idiots or trolls. So I'm done here. Good day.

And that's why it needs some Kittens and Squirrels !

By your own words, CCP is full of idiots or trolls,
because they do not agree with you either.

The only idiot is he who cant accept reality.

True.

Only is CCP going to change it, because CCP thinks these skill choices are unnecessary.

Many players knew about the lack of necessity, but accepted it as a part of the requirement for getting into an Orca, or else could they not have gotten into it. There was simply no choice for them.

The reason for why a reimbursement should be given is not just because a few players want it, this sure will always be the case when skills change, but because CCP is making this change and it invalidates players' skill choices of the past.

I am sure many Orca pilots will have trained Exhumers I in addition just to profit from this in their own way. These players should not get a reimbursement as they not only accepted it but used it for further training. Only those who did not should be allowed to reallocate some of their skill points. It is likely a very small group of people and also the reason why the discussion on this is largely biased, because most of who post here will not be part of this group.

Not really.

Again, those pilots ALREADY gained benefits from having those skills trained to use a ship *NOW* before the requirements are lowered. "Value obtained" style...

Some have already said that they did not benefit from it and it is the reason they are asking for a reimbursement.

If they didn't benefit from it, they shouldn't have trained it to begin with. Their poor decision-making skills are not grounds for compensation.

If they didn't benefit from it, they shouldn't have trained it to begin with. Their poor decision-making skills are not grounds for compensation.

They had no choice if they wanted to get into an Orca.

words

Why even try ? You KNOW it's no use.

Nobody forced them to train for an Orca.

You keep quoting 'sunk costs' like it is some kind of magical term or something. It sounds like you just got out of a business class. 'Sunk costs' is irrelevant here, because I'm not asking what decision I should make going forward from this moment.

As to the remainder of what you wrote, I will try once again. Same exact scenario we have now, but let's change some parameters.

1. First, let's put YOUR skin in the game. It isn't me that is affected by this, but YOU.

2. You didn't just lose a month or two skilling into something. Let's say you lost 2 full years. Yes, two full years because CCP came out with some new ultra-mega titan, and you wanted it. You teched straight to it, foregoing everything else you could have teched (economy, cruisers, battleships, etc). You stayed in frigates so you could tech to this.

3. The skill points which went into this ultra-mega titan can't go into anything else. They are useless outside of the mega-titan.

4. You aren't some veteran player who has teched to everything else he could possibly want and has nothing else he could throw skill points into (in other words, you aren't someone who stands to lose little if skill points are thrown away). You are a newer player who has teched to virtually nothing.

Now, when you are a few weeks away from getting into this death star, CCP pulls the rug out from under you, and lets all players get into it inside of a week.

All I did here was take the same situation and adjust variables (length of time spent teching, etc) to try and find out if this makes any difference to you or not. If it does, then we agree and you are simply quibbling about details thinking they have an effect on the general principle when they don't. If it doesn't, you are a troll, an alien, or a masochist.

That much I do agree with.....most indeed.

Is CCP deciding to make everything easy all of a sudden ?

True.

Only is CCP going to change it, because CCP thinks these skill choices are unnecessary.

Many players knew about the lack of necessity, but accepted it as a part of the requirement for getting into an Orca, or else could they not have gotten into it. There was simply no choice for them.

The reason for why a reimbursement should be given is not just because a few players want it, this sure will always be the case when skills change, but because CCP is making this change and it invalidates players' skill choices of the past.

I am sure many Orca pilots will have trained Exhumers I in addition just to profit from this in their own way. These players should not get a reimbursement as they not only accepted it but used it for further training. Only those who did not should be allowed to reallocate some of their skill points. It is likely a very small group of people and also the reason why the discussion on this is largely biased, because most of who post here will not be part of this group.

So let me get this straight for future reference. When training a skill, I am supposed to magically know that sometime in the future they will remove requirements for the skill which I don't want, will be useless to me, and will be no benefit to me, yet I am forced to train those requirements that I don't have use for anyway when training this skill.

They had no choice if they wanted to get into an Orca.

Still it is quite impossible to decide who has benefited from training the barge V (from those who haven't trained exhumers), and probably that's why CCP made the choice of not reimbursing anyone.

"I was forced to train something I didn't want" is really just bullshit. If having barge V really bugs people that much, then why train it.

But people accept this just fine... until the rug is pulled out and the rules are changed.

Saying someone has an entitled attitude when they played by the rules given them by CCP is what is bullshit.

No rug is being pulled out. They have exactly the benefits they wanted at the price they thought were fair.

What I find funny is all this pseudo-libertarian combined with Business 101 vernacular people keep throwing around - terms like "you had a choice," and "sunk costs." It all sounds like it was written by the same exact person using a bunch of different alts.

Well two can play at that game. For all you people getting reimbursed for destroyer and cruiser skills and what not, I say it shouldn't happen. YOU HAD A CHOICE to train into that stuff. YOU MADE THAT CHOICE. AND YOU BENEFITED. IT'S A SUNK COST. You should have no complaints.

Of course you will say it is different because the skills are being removed. But that's not the point. The point is to address your usage of all this dumb phraseology you keep throwing at me like "choice" and "benefit" blah blah. Quit using it - it doesn't work.

How can the price that other people might pay for something, at a different time than when you paid for that thing, have any possible effect on your decision making? In other words, do you throw a fit when milk goes on sale the day after you buy a gallon, or do you sit down and have a glass?

...
Well two can play at that game. For all you people getting reimbursed for destroyer and cruiser skills and what not, I say it shouldn't happen. YOU HAD A CHOICE to train into that stuff. YOU MADE THAT CHOICE. AND YOU BENEFITED. IT'S A SUNK COST. You should have no complaints.

The point is to address your usage of all this dumb phraseology you keep throwing at me like "choice" and "benefit" blah blah. Quit using it - it doesn't work.

Yup, so no reimbursement for cruisers or anything else. They wanted to train it, they trained it because there was a benefit, and they got that benefit at the price they were willing to pay.

I think it is a dumb question. There are totally different sets of rules and assumptions about real world economies than the situation in Eve when you have a "God" so to speak (CCP) controlling the universe and making up rules as they go. Many people accept the rules of supply and demand in a free market, and tolerate some level of price fluctuation. Then again, others don't, and prefer to live under price controls.

There are other things I could bring up to counter your position. For instance, is it acceptable for me to charge more for milk to a black person than, say, a white? If you say no, I could use all the same logic you use above, invoke choice, invoke "how does the price paid by one person at one time affect the decision the other person made to buy at another time" blah blah.

EDIT: Question - would it be acceptable to you if CCP implemented a system where members of the SniggWaffe were charged more for everything (skills, goods, services, etc) than everyone else? If no, why not? After all, you could always use your freedom of choice to pay or not to pay. If you pay, you will benefit. And why does the price someone else pays have any bearing on your situation?

See how that works?

GǪand if they did, they benefited from it, so there's no reason for them to ask for reimbursement.

They did not benefit from Mining Barges V. The skill is a time sink and it gives no bonuses to the ship. Or try explaining why the skill is now being removed from the path when (to you) it has a benefit.

Still gives them the skills and bonuses.

No, it's not wasted. No, you won't be reimbursed. No, you shouldn't be reimbursed. Yes, you should get over it.

So why remove it now when to you it is of a benefit?!

It is just to you of a benefit but nobody else.

With a reimbursement can you put your points back into Mining Barges V, thereby disagree with CCP's decision and benefit from it in your own way.

They did not benefit from Mining Barges V.

Or try explaining why the skill is now being removed from the path when (to you) it has a benefit.

Bad comparison again. The only difference between people buying the ability to fly an Orca is a temporal one.

You chose to incur the cost of flying an orca (the same cost as everyone else is faced with) at the time you chose it. The fact that, at another time, you might be able to pay a different cost is irrelevant.

When you chose to train for an Orca, did you believe that flying the Orca was worth the ~40d training time?

If Yes, The only effect the change will have on you is to either reduce your training time or leave it unchanged. Why does that make you unhappy?

It's obvious. I wasted a lot of time and SP because of a decision by CCP to change the tech tree. That time and SP could have gone into something else. I could have been into battleships. I could have trained up market trading or whatever. There are lots of things I could have done. The SP was flushed down the toilet.

If I had known that CCP was going to do this, I would never have started training Orca. I would have waited until after they changed the tech tree, and then trained Orca.

If you want the answer to why that makes me unhappy, go into your skill queue and stop all training right now. Leave it paused for a month. Then see how happy or unhappy you are after that month. Then you will have your answer.

You still don't seem to understand the difference between objectively useless SP/no SP and you personally just not liking the skill.

I have a number of skills that I dont use. Doesnt mean they are useless however because they still work.

We only get a reimbusment if the skills and the bonuses they give are removed.

Because the progression makes more sense this way. People who have trained the skill still benefit from it.

Nobody forced them to train for an Orca. In fact many people who probably will train for an Orca after the change purposefully did NOT train it up before hand due to the load of other skills required... because they preferred not to train the other skills that they would likely never use on that character.

Training for an Orca was a voluntary decision.
Not putting the other skills to use that you had to train is a voluntary decision.
The abilities those skills give your character has not changed.
If you did train for an Orca, you will be able to do exactly every single thing you could do before, you have lost nothing.

And therefore should they get a reimbursement, because it makes more sense and allows them to continue to benefit from it.

Then CCP would have to reimburse every single person that was ever affected by a non-removed skill change that has ever happened ever. Maybe CCP should reimburse all the skills I've had to train to fly supers that don't actually benefit me... No.

You still don't seem to understand the difference between objectively useless SP/no SP and you personally just not liking the skill.

I think the technical term is "bait and switch."

You don't seem to understand the difference between CCP mandating that some pay significantly more SP for things than others.

Doesn't anyone find this kind of thing totally immersion breaking? How are we supposed to interpret these kind of changes?

You don't seem to understand the difference between CCP mandating that some pay significantly more SP for things than others.

Why and when we get a reimbursement is up to CCP.

And therefore should they get a reimbursement, because it makes more sense and allows them to continue to benefit from it.

The same way you interpret changes in the driving license requirements?

So what? Price changes happen, and it's not like the new players will know that they're paying more.

Thats completely different to what I mean. Ok, 'license to fly an Orca' requirements may have changed, in this case. But what about all the other things that change every patch? Ships get module layouts changed *poof* magic. Etc.

Thats completely different to what I mean. Ok, 'license to fly an Orca' requirements may have changed, in this case. But what about all the other things that change every patch? Ships get module layouts changed *poof* magic. Etc.

Significantly? You mean like future navy frig pilots needing 8 times less SP to fly them? Totally reimburse. Or battleship pilots needing twice as little training in the future.

I also want free SP because I need to train useless skills to fly caps in the future.

If you didn't want the skill, you shouldn't have trained it.

Thats completely different to what I mean.

But what about all the other things that change every patch? Ships get module layouts changed *poof* magic poof mandatory block 52 upgrade with altered stress and max load recommendations; altered avionics and engine systems.

Really morons, this is getting old.

Training a skill and then later changing your mind and not wanting that skill falls under your admonition above.

No, it's not wasted. No, you won't be reimbursed. No, you shouldn't be reimbursed. Yes, you should get over it.

As mentioned in the blog, the only skills that we can in good conscience reimburse are the Destroyers and Battlecruisers ones.

That is because the overhaul will make the two skills mentioned above useless. Even if we were going to give the Destroyers/Battlecruisers skill points back in the allocation pool on a 1:1 ratio, we would leave players unable to fly hulls they could use before the changes (we are creating four racial variants instead of a single generic skill).

All the other skills, including Mining Barge 5 for the Orca, are not in the same category however. We are not taking your ability to fly the vessels away but changing how they are reached - players will still be able to fly them after the change. We are even modifying how skill training works to make sure you can still train the skill itself after the plan goes live.

Yes, it is annoying we leave you with a bunch of skills you have no interest into in your character sheet, and for that, you have our sincere apologies. But if we were to refund them here, other players, like capital pilots, or even people we affected during our numerous changes in the past, could rightfully claim for the same treatment. Because even if the previous concept was deemed acceptable, EVE Online is not one of these games where skill allocation can be technically wasted: with time, any player can theoretically reach and train all the skills we have to offer. There is no such thing as a Class A preventing you from seeing Class B content unless you create a new character specifically for it.

Invested skill points are still an asset - particularly Mining Barges 5, as it is very valuable for resource gathering characters. Which brings the question, why should we leave players with Mining Barge 5 trained if they are using the Orca as a hauler, or even a logistics platform for pirate related activities? That is because, initially, it was designed to be a logistic ship with a mining focus. You may not use any of its bonuses due to the sandbox nature of the game, but it didn't change the role it was initially tailored for.


So again, you do have our sympathy here - we wouldn't have spent half an hour writing this reply if we didn't care - but we cannot reimburse anything else than Destroyers and Battlecruisers in this case.

You really should make a separate thread if you feel this way.

I do not see a need for the making of general rules on how CCP has to do things, but find it better to discuss this for each case individually.

You want skillpoints reimbursed for a changed skill, when skills have been changed in the past with no reimbursment. It's not a seperate issue at all, you're just ignoring the facts.

The Old "Learning Skills" beg to differ.

As do the old "Connections Skills".

....and that's just in the time I've been playing.

The Old "Learning Skills" beg to differ-áshow this, since they were removed, not changed.

As do the old "Connections Skills" since they were also removed, not changed.

....and that's just in the time I've been playing.

The Old "Learning Skills" beg to differ.

As do the old "Connections Skills".

....and that's just in the time I've been playing.

You want skillpoints reimbursed for a changed skill, when skills have been changed in the past with no reimbursment. It's not a seperate issue at all, you're just ignoring the facts.

What I do is to respect the wish for a reimbursement by those who do want it.

No, I do not want skill points reimbursed, because I did not train for an Orca. What I do is to respect the wish for a reimbursement by those who do want it. There is a completely different level of comprehension going on here, which you have not realized yet.

What I do is to respect the wish for a reimbursement by those who do want it.

Game-breaking wishes are not really worth respecting.

It is not game-breaking when a few players are finally happy.

Where do you see a disaster happening?

I want do delete this thread and ban large numbers of specified idiot shiptosters from the forums permanently. Should CCP respect my wish? Of course not.

The Old "Learning Skills" beg to differ.

As do the old "Connections Skills".

....and that's just in the time I've been playing.

No, you do not really want to delete this thread. You first need to make up your mind before one actually could respect your wish. We all then know that you would probably get deleted first, because many will have the same wish, which is also why you think it is a bad idea.

Sure it is.
I'd be finally happy if I were given a trlilion ISK every time I logged in. It would still break the game, no matter how happy it made me.

At the point where skills are effectively removed from the game because GÇ£being happy not to have themGÇ¥ is enough reason to have the SP reimbursed. You're asking for SP remapping, which is about the most destructive thing that could ever happen.

Logic. Go learn some.

You are confusing happy with stupid. If it was about happiness then everyone could ask for a trillion ISKs and we all would be equal and nothing would break.

We are also only talking about Mining Barges V

Sentences. Go build some.

No. Hypocrisy much?

GǪapart from the economy, which is not designed for people getting free money.

No, we're talking about the simple principle that skills should not be reimbursed just because people don't want them any more for whatever reason, because that would break things. Instead, you train the skills you want to train and you get the benefits you want to get. Only if those benefits are outright removed do you get the SP back, because only then does the time become wasted.

So the question remains: why should you be reimbursed for something you haven't lost and for something that hasn't changed?

Now you are confusing a trillion ISKs with unlimited ISKs.

What makes you think we are talking about principles?

Nope.

The fact that we are.

So the question remains: why should you be reimbursed for something you haven't lost and for something that hasn't changed?

There's actually a compromise to make here that will satisfy everybody.

Allow those people who trained Mining Barge V for the Orca and who no longer want the skill to delete the SP from their characters.

There's actually a compromise to make here that will satisfy everybody.

Allow those people who trained Mining Barge V for the Orca and who no longer want the skill to delete the SP from their characters.

I tried this with Mining I, CCP denied me.

There's actually a compromise to make here that will satisfy everybody.

Allow those people who trained Mining Barge V for the Orca and who no longer want the skill to delete the SP from their characters.

It is really just a few players asking CCP for a reimbursement and others, who disagree with whatever.

There is no need for a compromise. It is really just a few players asking CCP for a reimbursement and others, who disagree with whatever.

Actually its a group of players asking to be treated differently from everyone else who has been in this situation for no good reason other than 'I dont want this skill I trained any more'. Its just like those people who whined about the updated bounty system simply because they didnt want to have one put on them, it would be very amusing if it wasnt so utterly utterly pathetic.

Yes, they want to be treated with respect, which to you is utterly pathetic.

Respect never even enters the equasion, the simple fact is you and the others pushing for this exception are expecting special treatment when CCP has already pointed out repeatedly why you wont be getting that.

There is simply nothing you can do to stop them from asking anyway, is there?

Training a skill and then later changing your mind and not wanting that skill falls under your admonition above.

You wanted the skill before. Now you don't want it.

There is simply nothing you can do to stop them from asking anyway, is there?

Yes, they want to be treated with respect, which to you is utterly pathetic.

Not really no, doesnt stop me taking pleasure from watching idiots tilt at windmills.

Asking for favoritism and asking for respect are two entirely different things.

Asking to receive a special benefit for no other reason than to make you happy is asking for favoritism.

Wrong again. I didn't want the skills before. And I don't want them now. But 'want' has never had anything to do with it. I was willing to accept training into skills I didn't want in order to get to skills that I did want, provided there were certain assumptions about the game, and a certain "world view."

The correct analogy is getting a degree at a university, of which I have two. I don't know where you come from or how it is where you are, but in the USA you are typically "forced" (if you want a certain degree) to take a bunch of useless courses and time sinks which have absolutely nothing to do with the degree you are pursuing. But if you want that degree, you have to take the useless crap and time sinks with it. There is no other option. I have an engineering degree but was forced to take foreign languages, music appreciation, and a whole host of things that I had no interest in, did not help me in life, and which I've already forgotten because I never used it. This wasn't just my experience, it was the experience of every person I know who got a degree.

Wrong again. I didn't want the skills before. And I don't want them now. But 'want' has never had anything to do with it. I was willing to accept training into skills I didn't want in order to get to skills that I did want, provided there were certain assumptions about the game, and a certain "world view."

Don't worry, it's OK, I just thought of a better compromise

So everyone that wants to train into an Orca after the patch gets the new requisites to fly it

But everyone who could fly it before the patch stay with the same Mining Barge V requisite displayed under the 'Orca' skill. There's no functional difference, of course. It just shows the Mining Barge skill in the 'prerequisites' tab of the Orca info window with a nice little green tick :)

This way the Mining Barge V skill is no longer 'useless' to these people! Hooray!

Man I'm the best at this. You can send me ISK if you like.

but my solution lets ccp spend their time on more important things.

And what is that? Are you going to tell me that it is not us?

unsurprisingly, there are more important things than you, or the people crying about the skill changes.

This appeals to everybody's interests and frankly I think you all should be just a little bit more thankful for my intervention today.

Yes but my solution takes a lot of dev time reprogramming the skill system (or perhaps the addition of a superfluous skill) for no real reason to appease a few falsely-entitled individuals

No, I am not talking about myself. I am talking about us players! Where is your sense of unity?

what can i say... i hate people.

Will it also break the game in (as yet) unknown and mysterious ways ?!

You're posting in General Discussion.

You also hate yourself?

Surprises keep the metagame fresh and interesting!

Hmm, so you're implying you're also bored.

I'm a miner...

Is this thread still on topic ?

It's ok.

Is this thread still on topic ?

There is simply no further need for discussion. I'm not saying my idea is perfect. I'm saying that it cannot be improved upon.

Correction: You may discuss how great my idea is.

You never seem to need reasons for making your comments, so why ask now?

That's the same as my idea but with free gametime tacked on! This is an outrageous appropriation of BennyPlan's core aspects.

10 pages of whine?

All the current skills equired to fly an Orca are relevant and do provide benefis. Just because some players do not use all of those benefits is not a case for reimbursement. Industry 5 reduces manufacuring time, Science 4 allows for Nanite Control to be trained (which is handy if you use combat boosters), Mining Barges 5 is highly useful if you plan to mine and allows for Exhumers to be trained. If all you wanted the Orca for was to haul stuff around, then you should have trained for a freighter.

If all you wanted the Orca for was to haul stuff around, then you should have trained for a freighter.

Someone might have wanted to... you know... actually use it the way it was designed, i.e. support mining operations with it (which doesn't mean that they themselves mine or need to train barges, which is actually reflected with CCP's upcoming changes).

So you are saying CCP should not change the skills.

Someone might have wanted to... you know... actually use it the way it was designed, i.e. support mining operations with it (which doesn't mean that they themselves mine or need to train barges, which is actually reflected with CCP's upcoming changes).

Oh, so you're one of those guys who just wants to park his Orca, turn on the boosts, then go afk, and get your cut from the mining op. Basically earning isk with minimal effort.

except if they were mining, during the time they were training for the orca, they were in a mining ship, contributing to the mining fleet.

Someone might have... you know... not been mining. Someone's entire goal might have been to support other miners. Or perhaps someone's entire goal might have been to haul unrefined ore, as perhaps they didn't have the skills to refine. Who knows?

as i pointed out (and you casually ignored and edited out of the quote)

Who would have funk !

Do you mean to say the OP isn't actually interested in getting enlightened,
but instead just wants to rant and have things go the way he wants them to ?

REALLY ??? O_O

Nope, but it doesn't change the fact that the skills needed to get into an Orca now, are not useful. I like the idea that if I want to fly a mining barge, then I can.

supporting them by not using the skills they're training for the good of the fleet?
even if you aren't boosting, an extra miner is better than being logged out.
in that case, **** 'em, they're clearly useless anyway.

either way, mining barge is never a useless skill to train as an orca pilot that boosts, as i pointed out ...

now you mention it, and i've checked what forum we're in...

i should have known better, shouldn't i?

So CCP is making a mistake by removing these skills from the skill path? Why don't you tell them that? In fact, I'm with you 100%.

Glad we finally agree on something.