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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3964
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 23:33:00 -
[181] - Quote
Andski wrote:"afk mining is a valid playstyle" is an oxymoron since "afk" and "gameplay" are fundamentally incompatible but continue to defend your quasi-botting, it is amusing
It is not valid, it's the only way to do it while not going even more insane (more = insanity is being present enough already to make the person mine to begin with). Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7133
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 23:33:00 -
[182] - Quote
Lin Suizei wrote:Whitehound wrote:Just because something is PvP does not automatically make it good PvP. It is the dumbest thing one can do just after hating PvP itself. It is important to ask for the reasons why a play style exists and to see why it is good and why it is bad, because it can be used to improve the PvP experience. Clearly, "good" PvP is everything except suicide ganking miners, which is arbitrarily bad.
the only bad PvP is the PvP where I'm on the losing end, you see
naturally if I was in a ship that could shoot back they'd be pasted since i'm the best pvper in the universe ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3964
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 23:35:00 -
[183] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: In fact the wrong is that PvP isnt.
I have played other PvP games where I never had to stop PvPing to earn a lot of money by killing scores of people. That was fun and profitable.
EvE PvP should be profitable too. That'd be also an excellent "Joe The 0.0 Grunt" bottom up income.
EVE needs to let us disable, board and tow ships. 
Imagine an EvE with SWTor elements...
And dogfights. Oh if only I could hop in a Rifter and use the joystick and be blasted by irradiating fun like I did when I played X-Wing and Tie Figther for DOS. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7133
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 23:36:00 -
[184] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Andski wrote:"afk mining is a valid playstyle" is an oxymoron since "afk" and "gameplay" are fundamentally incompatible but continue to defend your quasi-botting, it is amusing It is not valid, it's the only way to do it while not going even more insane (more = insanity is being present enough already to make the person mine to begin with).
Sure, but demanding total safety when you're literally not playing the game is just absurd. ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3964
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 23:37:00 -
[185] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Xen Solarus wrote:I think that ganking should only be profitable when the correct target is found. Such as someone who is carrying a massive amount of isk in goods or mods, silly enough to be flying around advertising themselves. General ganking of any-old person should not be profitable. If it were, they'd be even more people claiming to be elite "PvPers" in highsec than there already are. True PvP should be found in low and nullsec space, where is suppose to be going down. But the highsec ganker crowd have found their easy-mode, with their risk-free completely one-sided carebear targets. Why risk an actual PvP battle when they can get their kills and loot so easily from targets that don't shoot back? Most of them wouldn't know PvP if it came up and slapped them in the face!  I'd argue that pirates are a victim of their own success. They've taught highsec players over and over, the hard way, that coming to lowsec often results in a quick death, often in the jaws of a waiting gatecamp. Now they've succeeded in turning lowsec into a wasteland, seems only logicial they'd move to highsec to continue the slaughter. Who cares that it harms the game as a whole, and prevents newer players from making the natural progression to low and nullsec space? As long as they're getting their easymode, the gankers will continue to defend their niche, and continue to yammer their highsec-hating rhetoric to justify their position. We have been pirating ships in high sec for a decade. This is not anything new.
TBH I'd love to see actual boarding of the ships and then taking them away, no destruction needed for a pirate who wants to profit off his victims. That's piracy!  Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3964
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 23:40:00 -
[186] - Quote
Andski wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Andski wrote:"afk mining is a valid playstyle" is an oxymoron since "afk" and "gameplay" are fundamentally incompatible but continue to defend your quasi-botting, it is amusing It is not valid, it's the only way to do it while not going even more insane (more = insanity is being present enough already to make the person mine to begin with). Sure, but demanding total safety when you're literally not playing the game is just absurd.
Well the whole mining concept is a testament to bad design and absurdity.
Why would someone who is "normal" want to sit for several hours watching painting dry roids pop is beyond me. To add insult to injury, why would someone "normal" even want to PAY to do that.
That's really either a developer engineered instigation to botting or something that should be changed fast... 8 years ago! Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |

baltec1
Bat Country
5641
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 23:41:00 -
[187] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:TBH I'd love to see actual boarding of the ships and then taking them away, no destruction needed for a pirate who wants to profit off his victims. That's piracy! 
I would need a large hat and a flintlock. |

Tesal
239
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 00:26:00 -
[188] - Quote
Andski wrote:"afk mining is a valid playstyle" is an oxymoron since "afk" and "gameplay" are fundamentally incompatible but continue to defend your quasi-botting, it is amusing
I am against AFK ,miners because the idea of them playing AFK is so offensive that it destroys all the enjoyment I get from playing the game. Now I don't enjoy myself at all, and all I have is my rage to keep me company. This is not amusing Mr. Andski. This is as personal as it will ever get.
|

Theron Vetrus
Black Label Mafia SCUM.
38
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 00:37:00 -
[189] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Xen Solarus wrote:I think that ganking should only be profitable when the correct target is found. Such as someone who is carrying a massive amount of isk in goods or mods, silly enough to be flying around advertising themselves. General ganking of any-old person should not be profitable. If it were, they'd be even more people claiming to be elite "PvPers" in highsec than there already are. True PvP should be found in low and nullsec space, where is suppose to be going down. But the highsec ganker crowd have found their easy-mode, with their risk-free completely one-sided carebear targets. Why risk an actual PvP battle when they can get their kills and loot so easily from targets that don't shoot back? Most of them wouldn't know PvP if it came up and slapped them in the face!  I'd argue that pirates are a victim of their own success. They've taught highsec players over and over, the hard way, that coming to lowsec often results in a quick death, often in the jaws of a waiting gatecamp. Now they've succeeded in turning lowsec into a wasteland, seems only logicial they'd move to highsec to continue the slaughter. Who cares that it harms the game as a whole, and prevents newer players from making the natural progression to low and nullsec space? As long as they're getting their easymode, the gankers will continue to defend their niche, and continue to yammer their highsec-hating rhetoric to justify their position. We have been pirating ships in high sec for a decade. This is not anything new.
That doesn't make his point any less valid.
Take what you can, give nothing back. Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7134
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 00:44:00 -
[190] - Quote
Tesal wrote:Andski wrote:"afk mining is a valid playstyle" is an oxymoron since "afk" and "gameplay" are fundamentally incompatible but continue to defend your quasi-botting, it is amusing I am against AFK ,miners because the idea of them playing AFK is so offensive that it destroys all the enjoyment I get from playing the game. Now I don't enjoy myself at all, and all I have is my rage to keep me company. This is not amusing Mr. Andski. This is as personal as it will ever get.
yeah maybe i just dislike the fact that ice products are dirt-cheap; most of the value of fuel blocks comes from the PI products used for their production rather than the ice products
things are supposed to have a non-trivial cost, and that is not the case right now because of CCP's "everybody wins" nonsense ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7134
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 00:48:00 -
[191] - Quote
goddamn it double post ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7134
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 00:48:00 -
[192] - Quote
Theron Vetrus wrote:That doesn't make his point any less valid.
his point isn't valid because right now it is the case that ganking isn't profitable unless it's a loot pinata
it's also not valid because he's harping on that "lowsec is a ring of death" myth when people jump into lowsec systems flying solo all the damn time
~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |

baltec1
Bat Country
5648
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 01:15:00 -
[193] - Quote
Theron Vetrus wrote:
That doesn't make his point any less valid.
It does when you look back to the start of high sec piracy. We are just a breeze in the wind compared to the hellstorm that was M0o. |

Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 01:54:00 -
[194] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:[quote=Andski] You then cannot kick miners out of the game, because you need the minerals, but you can well kick gankers out of the game, because they are not needed for anything.
So it still needs a good argument. Miners have all the good arguments. Why cannot those cheap gankers have good arguments?
There are some people that would disagree with you. Traders and industrialists for example. You know, the ones that make transport and sell things. Things like Catalysts, Retrievers, Mackinaws, Mining modules, Small Blasters, Tornados, Talos, Large Artillery, Large blasters, Invuls,Small and Medium rigs, Kin/Therm hardeners. Mission runners who dump (however marginally) higher amounts of faction Antimatter.
You need minerals you say? Well salvage is needed too. Considering ships of both parties turn into salvage in almost all ganks, that provides a steady supply.
You want a good argument why someone should be able to gank for ***** and giggles? Because without that you can't do it when you have a legitimate reason either. It's a perfectly fine way to get around people dropping to NPC corps/refusing to undock/not logging in when wardeced. You just take a personal loss on the gank, Sec status hits and give them kill rights instead of paying the wardec fee. I did this a while back, deliberately using some pretty silly overkill just to make a point. You don't think I should be able to do that?
If you remove suicide ganking because it's no fun for the target, what's next? Stop other miners from targeting "your" rock? Stop people from scanning down and invading "your" mission to shoot triggers and screw with you? Stop people from salvaging "your" wrecks? After all, there are "good reasons" for why these things are bad for the target and unnecessary for the offender to be able to do. I mean, the offender can just go run missions or mine or go to low/null to pew pew. It's not like there's nothing better for them to do.
What's next? Save CCP bandwidth by not even connecting to the server? Hosting your own local instances while in high sec systems, connecting to the server only to pick up market orders or when you choose to join a chat channel? You could mine what you want in peace, mission effortlessly in all the bling you want, autopilot around with 80 Bil in a freighter.
Sounds like a perfect game. A single player one. |

Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 02:08:00 -
[195] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Imagine an EvE with SWTor elements...
And dogfights. Oh if only I could hop in a Rifter and use the joystick and be blasted by irradiating fun like I did when I played X-Wing and Tie Figther for DOS.
Rifter? More like a speed tanked executioner... with no shields.. or armor. The first three (four?) TIE Fighter campaigns were a blast. Nothing like half hour dogfights in a ship where half your modules explode the first time you take a hit, and most of the time you won't live through a second. |
|

ISD Flidais Asagiri
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
77

|
Posted - 2013.03.20 02:11:00 -
[196] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: I always imagine Tippia standing in front of a brick wall while saying these things lol. Because that's how effective it is at convincing the other party that their beliefs are unfounded.
1) Because convincing anyone out of their ideas on a forum (or television too) is a futile task. 2) Because some of Tippia's posts are boring and/or mind numbing and/or captious enough that would make the brick wall fall asleep.
Greetings
First, excellent use of the word captious! Second, comes very close to badgering and a personal attack, let us keep posts on topic and constructive.
I do however +1 the interesting words used correctly.
On On ISD Flidais Asagiri Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|

HollyShocker 2inthestink
State War Academy Caldari State
177
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 03:31:00 -
[197] - Quote
Theron Vetrus wrote:HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:I do know how I see things and have the ability of being even brained and can see things from multiple points of view. I may not always agree with those views... Confirming that "even brained" is code for "has schizophrenia". At least now we know what's wrong with you. Your points of view are so erratic, you can't even agree with yourself.
Confirming you have never contributed anything positive in any post you have made.
I didnGÇÖt choose you to raise and it isnGÇÖt my place to teach the ways of the world. I understand someone disagrees with your play style perhaps and some people may like to see a change to the ability to gank high value ships with low cost high dps trash fits.
Since you seem to lack the maturity to communicate effectively as an adult which allows for constructive conversation I can see why you choose to troll or lash out and have a tantrum but it does not add anything of value.
Please take a step back or ask your Mom and Dad for permission to leave the basement and leave the adults to continue their discussion on the topic at hand. Trying to get the post banned for trolling wont make the issue go away.
Again I may not agree with everyoneGÇÖs point of view but I do respect their privilege to have that point of view regardless of how it may differ from my own.
As you get older you may find the world like this game is full of different point of views. How you choose to deal with those that differ from your own can determine how far you can grow as a human being. |

HollyShocker 2inthestink
State War Academy Caldari State
177
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 03:35:00 -
[198] - Quote
I would argue that you could get plenty of salvage from ratting and mission running. |

Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 03:46:00 -
[199] - Quote
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:I would argue that you could get plenty of salvage from ratting and mission running. My memory seems to be rusty. Can you remind me which belt rats drop Intact Armor Plates? |

Alara IonStorm
4673
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 03:51:00 -
[200] - Quote
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:I would argue that you could get plenty of salvage from ratting and mission running. T2 Salvage being rarer (practically non existent in missions) and coming with the buy in cost of a big ship to run them. Also it is an entirely different profession which some find fun and other don't. Popping an untanked barge is cheap if Sec Stats are not an issue and you get a commemorative plaque to hang on your wall. |

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7136
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 03:54:00 -
[201] - Quote
It's all well and good to have a different opinion but even suggesting that piracy has no place in EVE is completely and utterly wrong. The mechanics are fine, but not your attitude. Being able to putter about in an excessively shiny ship without any risk has never been a theme in EVE, period. You are literally asking for a massive change to the game's design philosophy. If you want a game where you can play in isolation without worrying that someone else will kill you and loot your epics, try some other game. EVE is not and should never become such a game. ~*a proud belligerent undesirable*~ TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8 |

Oxandrolone
Bite Me inc Bitten.
163
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 04:53:00 -
[202] - Quote
I think it should be profitable to an extent. Its like getting mugged in real life, if you carry to much value that someone is willing to risk police for they will try and take it from you by force.
There was a problem when peeople could continually farm buddy-program alts and not care about security status because they could activate new accounts with PLEX. It so stupid that mining barges refused to choose fittings, they would only ever fit for max yield. If they fit for tank they become unprofitable to gank but they absolutely refuse to do this, they just cry until CCP change the ship stats so they can only fit for max yield. |

Galan Amarias
Kantian Principle
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 05:04:00 -
[203] - Quote
Should it? No, ideally clever players would be aware of their surroundings and the gank would fail. However if people want to fly around with billions of isk in one fragile balloon.. then yes, yes others should come and take their stuff. |

Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
349
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 05:05:00 -
[204] - Quote
The real debate really should be about when it should be profitable not if it should or not. What amount of pimp needed to be worth it? Shoult a good but cheap T1 fit be profitable? What about a good T2 fit? How much in the hold of a hauler? |

Theron Vetrus
Black Label Mafia SCUM.
40
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 06:07:00 -
[205] - Quote
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:Failed troll attempt.
Nice try, but I'm above letting you goad me into personal attacks. I've been around the interwebs for a spell, and my forum Kung Fu is much stronger than yours. Especially when the points you try to make are so easily picked apart.
I posted before that you are the poster child for carebears in this game. That holds true again in this thread. You seem to be a strong advocate against any kind of emergent gameplay, in a game whose sole claim to fame is exactly that which you seem to dislike the most.
The PvE element of this game is boring. Like every other MMO, it's repetitive, predictable, and at best, moderately entertaining even for the players who engage in it most. In most other games, there is a very clear distinction between PvE and PvP elements. There are different servers, and an entirely different player base. None of that exists in Eve. Here, PvP is a very real possibility every time you are in space, whether you choose to participate or even acknowledge it.
Maybe you just want to be left alone to play the game in peace. I can respect that. However, I have equal respect for the player who wants to blow you to smithereens. And THAT is where we differ. You are vocal about wanting to play your game the way you want to play it at the expense of how others choose to play the same game. Take what you can, give nothing back. Psychotic Monk for CSM8 |

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3964
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 07:09:00 -
[206] - Quote
ISD Flidais Asagiri wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: I always imagine Tippia standing in front of a brick wall while saying these things lol. Because that's how effective it is at convincing the other party that their beliefs are unfounded.
1) Because convincing anyone out of their ideas on a forum (or television too) is a futile task. 2) Because some of Tippia's posts are boring and/or mind numbing and/or captious enough that would make the brick wall fall asleep. Greetings First, excellent use of the word captious! Second, comes very close to badgering and a personal attack, let us keep posts on topic and constructive. I do however +1 the interesting words used correctly. On On
Considering I know English quite little and I use Google translate including for that word, then it means thanks to Google!  Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |

Azrael Dinn
The 20th Legion Mildly Sober
68
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 07:11:00 -
[207] - Quote
Oxandrolone wrote:I think it should be profitable to an extent. Its like getting mugged in real life, if you carry to much value that someone is willing to risk police for they will try and take it from you by force.
There was a problem when peeople could continually farm buddy-program alts and not care about security status because they could activate new accounts with PLEX. It so stupid that mining barges refused to choose fittings, they would only ever fit for max yield. If they fit for tank they become unprofitable to gank but they absolutely refuse to do this, they just cry until CCP change the ship stats so they can only fit for max yield.
The problemin EVE is that the police stops after they have stopped the aggression while in RL the police tries to track you down if you get away and get the stolen items back from you.
So I do agree that ganging should be profitable but it should be alot harder. |

Amyclas Amatin
The Phantom Regiment THE ROYAL NAVY
85
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 08:39:00 -
[208] - Quote
Azrael Dinn wrote:Oxandrolone wrote:I think it should be profitable to an extent. Its like getting mugged in real life, if you carry to much value that someone is willing to risk police for they will try and take it from you by force.
There was a problem when peeople could continually farm buddy-program alts and not care about security status because they could activate new accounts with PLEX. It so stupid that mining barges refused to choose fittings, they would only ever fit for max yield. If they fit for tank they become unprofitable to gank but they absolutely refuse to do this, they just cry until CCP change the ship stats so they can only fit for max yield. The problemin EVE is that the police stops after they have stopped the aggression while in RL the police tries to track you down if you get away and get the stolen items back from you. So I do agree that ganging should be profitable but it should be alot harder.
The other problem in EVE is that the police are operating in videogame God-Mode. They already DO hunt criminals relentlessly. But they'll forgive you if all you have is an itchy twitchy finger, and someone with a plex passes under your gunsights.
Now, if ganking were TOTALLY unprofitable, then the only people who'd do it would be well-funded crusaders who are just out to ruin high-sec. Then CCP would decide that they don't want such undesirables around to ruin everyone's game, and pile on more nerfs. Null-Sec would then revolt, building invincible out-of-corp industries in high-sec, whilst refusing to fight properly in sov-null, with the exception of the occasional thunderdome.
Of course, such a situation would be impossible. The post that got me banned from Eve-Uni: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=210049&find=unread |

Whitehound
1301
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 09:04:00 -
[209] - Quote
Georgina Parmala wrote:There are some people that would disagree with you. Traders and industrialists for example. ... You want a good argument why someone should be able to gank for ***** and giggles? Because without that you can't do it when you have a legitimate reason either. ... If you remove suicide ganking because it's no fun for the target, what's next? No, not really. If the gankers were forced to do something else would they still participate in the overall game and its economy unless they decided to quit the game. Having a legitimate reason does not mean you cannot have your giggles, too. I have also not said to remove all ganking. The thread is still about profitable ganking, thus ganking for a reason, and I am saying it should be allowed. Only the kind of ganking where the only goal is to cause a random player a greater loss than yourself is what I am questing. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |

Velicitia
Arma Artificer
1268
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 09:43:00 -
[210] - Quote
Georgina Parmala wrote: Stop other miners from targeting "your" rock?
Antimatter is probably your best bet ... although griffin, kitsune, blackbird, falcon, rook, maulus, kitsune, arazu, lachesis work, although best bet with those is during wartime, because they're less "permanent" solutions otherwise.
Georgina Parmala wrote: Stop people from scanning down and invading "your" mission to shoot triggers and screw with you?
Don't run missions ... so, IDK here
Georgina Parmala wrote: Stop people from salvaging "your" wrecks?
Salvage them first? One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
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