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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
98
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 21:57:00 -
[181] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:Really. You invested "months" in training for Amarr Battlecruiser, Caldari Battlecruiser, Gallente Battlecruiser, and Minmatar Battlecruiser? Yes, he (and many others) invested time in the ability to fly all four races' battlecruisers. Why should others be given tons of new abilities just because he retains his?
You can't be that *snip*
if it took you months to train three medium weapons skills up and heavy missles, you probably need to not be on a remap where you refused to allocate any skill points . . . .try making a real argument instead of honestly terrible ones.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Khalkotauroi Defence Labs
8069
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Posted - 2013.04.23 21:58:00 -
[182] - Quote
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote: Really. You invested "months" in training for Amarr Battlecruiser, Caldari Battlecruiser, Gallente Battlecruiser, and Minmatar Battlecruiser?
Quick question - where did you buy the skillbooks?
Love the "marxist utopia" bit though, makes you seem very . . . yeah.
From scratch, with a remap and no implants the skill queue required to train Destroyers V and Battlecruisers V, including the prerequisites is circa 50 days, that gets you into the bare hulls, you then have to train the required shield and armor skills, the weapons skills, drones and many of the core skills to make those ships viable so yes I have invested several months to be able to use those ships effectively. A war hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
98
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Posted - 2013.04.23 22:01:00 -
[183] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Hello new pilot, welcome to New Eden!
Here is a Noobship since you do not have the skill to fly the frigate of your race, here is a civilian gun becasue you do no have the skills to use a real one yet.
We are sorry about the lack of skills we have not given you from the get go. To keep you in pace with the rest of New Eden, We have given you all 4 racial destroyer skills at level 5 ...and all 4 racial Battlecruiser skills at level 5. We did this because 2 people on the forums deemed it was fair and did not wish to train the necessary prereqs like everyone else.
Please enjoy flying a brutix with 6 civilian electron blasters on it...and nothing else becasue you cant fit anything yet.
Please enjoy the completely even footing we have provided you. Also, please upgrade your clone, as your Alpha clone cannot retain all the free skillpoints we have given you. We would hate for you to undock and engage in a competely "fair" fight and lose all your free SP.
We hope you have a great experience in Eve!
CCP.
CCP,
Thanks! Without remapping it only takes me around 3 days to get a given weapon's system to IV (and the support skills work for all but those darn Caldari missile boats!). You just saved me a TON of training time (just like everyone else!)
And thanks for the heads up on my clone! I'll be sure to pay the nominal cost and update before taking my Minmatar BC (or maybe I'll use an Amarr one?) out on a roam through low-sec.
You guys RULE!
-New Pilot.
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Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
98
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Posted - 2013.04.23 22:01:00 -
[184] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote: Really. You invested "months" in training for Amarr Battlecruiser, Caldari Battlecruiser, Gallente Battlecruiser, and Minmatar Battlecruiser?
Quick question - where did you buy the skillbooks?
Love the "marxist utopia" bit though, makes you seem very . . . yeah.
From scratch, with a remap and no implants the skill queue required to train Destroyers V and Battlecruisers V, including the prerequisites is circa 50 days, that gets you into the bare hulls, you then have to train the required shield and armor skills, the weapons skills, drones and many of the core skills to make those ships viable so yes I have invested several months to be able to use those ships effectively.
Are you getting additional skills from CCP for training Engineering V? Mechanics V?
didn't think so. shoo, your arguments are bad and you should feel bad for making them.
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Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
200
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:03:00 -
[185] - Quote
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote: On June 4, you will have it - despite having never trained it. As a result, you will be able to fly 3 Amarr battlecruiser-class ships.
You also don't have Caldari Battlecruiser V right now. You don't have it, you can't train for it.
On June 4, you will have it - despite having never trained it. As a result, you will be able to fly 3 Caldari battlecruiser-class ships.
OP does not have Amarr Battlecruiser V trained right now. She doesn't have it, she can't possibly train it.
On June 4 . . . still won't have it. Doesn't get the gift that you are getting - a brand new skill - and it is a gift, as you did not train all four racial battlecruisers up to V. that would take months that you did_not_spend training.
However, you get the equivilant of three free racial skills - while OP is faced with months of additional training (that you did not have to do) in order to match your variety of battlecruisers.
Hence, the need for free SPs to allocate at will.
I decided not to train up two of my racial cruiser skills to level 3 so I won't benefit fully either, I demand free SP also! *sarcasm*
And what about the months of additional training that older players spent on training the Mining Barge when new players don't have to train it now. If CCP aren't reimbursing that then they certainly shouldn't be reimbursing every noob still flying their civilian gatling gunned reaper with the full suite of every battlecruiser skill trained to level V. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Khalkotauroi Defence Labs
8069
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:05:00 -
[186] - Quote
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:
Are you getting additional skills from CCP for training Engineering V? Mechanics V?
didn't think so. shoo, your arguments are bad and you should feel bad for making them.
Your point is moot, the engineering and mechanics skills aren't changing, although I would consider both of those skills to be unofficial prerequisites for any ship bigger than a cruiser.
A war hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
Myriad Blaze
44
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:13:00 -
[187] - Quote
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote: On June 4, you will have it - despite having never trained it. As a result, you will be able to fly 3 Amarr battlecruiser-class ships.
You also don't have Caldari Battlecruiser V right now. You don't have it, you can't train for it.
On June 4, you will have it - despite having never trained it. As a result, you will be able to fly 3 Caldari battlecruiser-class ships.
OP does not have Amarr Battlecruiser V trained right now. She doesn't have it, she can't possibly train it.
On June 4 . . . still won't have it. Doesn't get the gift that you are getting - a brand new skill - and it is a gift, as you did not train all four racial battlecruisers up to V. that would take months that you did_not_spend training.
However, you get the equivilant of three free racial skills - while OP is faced with months of additional training (that you did not have to do) in order to match your variety of battlecruisers.
Hence, the need for free SPs to allocate at will.
Errr... no?
I have trained Destroyer and Battlecruiser to V and I also trained racial cruisers to 4 (only 3 is needed) so I can fly all racial battlecruisers at the moment. And after the patch I can still fly all racial battlecruisers at the exact same skill level - so I get nothing really. Actually you could argue that I am punished, because I now need to invest in a more expensive clone.
Let me rephrase that to be very clear: after the patch I can do exactly the SAME than before the patch. I get NOTHING what I didn't have before. The additional SP are needed so I can still fly what I can fly now.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Khalkotauroi Defence Labs
8070
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:13:00 -
[188] - Quote
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:I'm a hypocritical troll and everybody else should feel bad because of it You should feel bad for being both a hypocrite, and a troll.
A war hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
1405
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:13:00 -
[189] - Quote
The OP stepped in with eyes wide-open, and uncorked a horrible idea, then defended it horribly. Along the way, the OP found a fellow traveller, who also doesn't seem particularly good.
I'm still standing. Come back again, BSMD, when you've got a better grasp of what the June 4 implementation actually means. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
200
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:15:00 -
[190] - Quote
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote: Wish some of the more prevalent forum trolls would find better hobbies though
Thats kind of rich coming from someone who just freely admitted to trolling and even compared it to a days work. You are very confused indeed.
Somehow I don't think you were trolling though and just used it as an easy get out when you realised how bad your arguments were. At least you realised it in the end so have to give you some credit for listening to the voices of reason on this forum.
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Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
72
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:21:00 -
[191] - Quote
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:You also don't have Caldari Battlecruiser V right now. You don't have it, you can't train for it.
On June 4, you will have it - despite having never trained it. As a result, you will be able to fly 3 Caldari battlecruiser-class ships.
Are you trolling or really this stupid? Either this is a clever troll, or you really are stupid. I couldn't be bothered to investigate, but just a hunch
Suddenly OP stopped posting and there is a new NPC alt spam posting in the thread, equally upset and just as confused as the OP.
Coincidence? Or Alt? |
Nathalie LaPorte
Republic University Minmatar Republic
118
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:26:00 -
[192] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Nathalie LaPorte wrote:Technically her argument isn't a non sequitur, but more of a self-defeating oxymoron. No, it's a non sequitur. He's suggesting that I should have quit playing under the old system just because the new one is better.
What? To manipulate what he/she said to fit the non sequitur categorization, you're twisting his/her words to accuse you of being able to tell the future but acting as if you couldn't? Crazy.
Quote:He's assuming that just because there is an improvement, the old one was horrible, which does not follow.
With the added assumption which he is clearly making that the current one is horrible, that actually does follow. Sorry, you're wrong.
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silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
1406
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Posted - 2013.04.23 22:26:00 -
[193] - Quote
Georgina Parmala wrote:Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:You also don't have Caldari Battlecruiser V right now. You don't have it, you can't train for it.
On June 4, you will have it - despite having never trained it. As a result, you will be able to fly 3 Caldari battlecruiser-class ships.
Are you trolling or really this stupid? Either this is a clever troll, or you really are stupid. I couldn't be bothered to investigate, but just a hunch Suddenly OP stopped posting and there is a new NPC alt spam posting in the thread, equally upset and just as confused as the OP. Coincidence? Or Alt? Something inconvenient might have happened.
edit: Oh, and the OP (plus Fellow Traveler) seem inordinately fixated on SP - As if SP really meant anything. I suspect that's their (his?) main probnlem - that he/they don't get that SP are irrelevent, save as a marker of how close you are towards getting the next skill level. Skill levels themselves are only somewhat relevent, in as much as they determine what you fly, and how well.
I'd guess that the OP keeps score by SP, despite it being rather irrelevent. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
3279
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:27:00 -
[194] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:Something inconvenient might have happened.
The truth can be like that sometimes. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Baggo Hammers
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:28:00 -
[195] - Quote
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:Alright, work day is done, I want to thank all of you for playing. Most of you are . . . pretty bad.
I think OP's idea is terrible, but part of the problem was that it was presented pretty poorly. I did my part to raise OPs argument in a "better" way (there's really no good way to put "gimmegimmeGIMME!" but I tried). Long story short - handing out SPs is a terrible idea, but playing devil's advocate is fun.
Doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of you ARE bad, and should FEEL bad for BEING bad. OP didn't deserve the poorly reasoned, illogically, crappily-analogized garbage that was posted. There are very good reasons not to just start handing out SP - few of you even managed to get that far. And from what I can see, no one took the very simple step of, at a minimum, at least pretending to see where OP was coming from (it is a legitimate gripe, just one without a good solution).
And I guess, FWIW, I wouldn't cry if CCP did provide everyone with BC VI/Dessie IV as a sort of "hey, there you go, lets all move forward together" (I did already finish my training before the new year, back when I thought the change was going live pre-Retribution). But likewise, I have no qualms at all with things staying exactly like CCP said they would for MONTHS.
And in fact, it's gotten better. No more of that "rationale integer" garbage - partial training is getting spread out too. All in all, CCP is handling this pretty well.
Wish some of the more prevalent forum trolls would find better hobbies though. Especially with the god-awful analogies and deliberately failing to address basic arguments. Oh well - keep shining on, you crazy diamonds!
You are one amazing cat! Too bad all us Philistines can't grasp your deep thoughts. Clerks rule!
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Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1687
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:29:00 -
[196] - Quote
These changes have been known about and announced for something like 6-8 months. Even if you started a char on the day it was first talked about you could EASILY have BC and Dessie 5 by now. |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
200
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:33:00 -
[197] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:These changes have been known about and announced for something like 6-8 months. Even if you started a char on the day it was first talked about you could EASILY have BC and Dessie 5 by now.
The funny thing is, even if you started a character right now you could max them all out in time for the expansion with the right remap. But the OP would rather whinge on here instead. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13777
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:34:00 -
[198] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:What? Me: GÇ£you're already getting a much more optimise skill tree, so you have nothing to complain aboutGÇ¥ Him: GÇ£If the skill tree was so bad, then y did u play it then at that time? U should have left then.GÇ¥ Me: GÇ£Non sequitur.GÇ¥
Quote:To manipulate what he/she said to fit the non sequitur categorization, you're twisting his/her words to accuse you of being able to tell the future but acting as if you couldn't? Eh, no. I'm converting his GÇ£you should have leftGÇ¥ into an analogy about bacon and eggs to demonstrate that, no, just because there is improvement doesn't mean that it was bad before; that you can improve from GÇ£goodGÇ¥ to GÇ£betterGÇ¥.
Quote:With the added assumption which he is clearly making that the current one is horrible, that actually does follow. GǪexcept that it's about what I thought, and no mention was made about it being bad GÇö it was just something he dreamt up as a non sequitur of my saing that it's getting improved.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1687
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:34:00 -
[199] - Quote
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Jack Miton wrote:These changes have been known about and announced for something like 6-8 months. Even if you started a char on the day it was first talked about you could EASILY have BC and Dessie 5 by now. The funny thing is, even if you started a character right now you could max them all out in time for the expansion with the right remap. But the OP would rather whinge on here instead. well sure, but that's some pretty epic power leveling :P |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
3280
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:37:00 -
[200] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Jack Miton wrote:These changes have been known about and announced for something like 6-8 months. Even if you started a char on the day it was first talked about you could EASILY have BC and Dessie 5 by now. The funny thing is, even if you started a character right now you could max them all out in time for the expansion with the right remap. But the OP would rather whinge on here instead. well sure, but that's some pretty epic power leveling :P
Getting Desi to 5 and BC to 4 would still net 4 level 5 desi skills and 4 level 4 BC skills, so even that is not training time wasted. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13780
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:40:00 -
[201] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Jack Miton wrote:These changes have been known about and announced for something like 6-8 months. Even if you started a char on the day it was first talked about you could EASILY have BC and Dessie 5 by now. The funny thing is, even if you started a character right now you could max them all out in time for the expansion with the right remap. But the OP would rather whinge on here instead. well sure, but that's some pretty epic power leveling sitting-around :P Fixed.
We're talking about (2+6) ranks +ù 256k SP = 2M SP, which can be brushed off in 33 days at 2520 SP/h.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Nathalie LaPorte
Republic University Minmatar Republic
118
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:46:00 -
[202] - Quote
Tippia wrote: GǪexcept that it's about what I thought, and no mention was made about it being bad
...except that he didn't use the word "thought", but he did use the word "bad", in the 4 sentence excerpt under discussion.
"If the skill tree was so bad, then y did u play it then at that time? U should have left then. But u stayed. Why do u use it as a point now then?" |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13780
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Posted - 2013.04.23 22:50:00 -
[203] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:...except that he didn't use the word "thought", but he did use the word "bad", in the 4 sentence excerpt under discussion. GǪand it's still my view of the skill tree that was in question GÇö i.e. what I thought about it.
Not that it matters, the non-sequitur is the same: GÇ£improvementGÇ¥ does not mean that it was bad before. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
1406
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:57:00 -
[204] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Nathalie LaPorte wrote:...except that he didn't use the word "thought", but he did use the word "bad", in the 4 sentence excerpt under discussion. GǪand it's still my view of the skill tree that was in question GÇö i.e. what I thought about it. Not that it matters, the non-sequitur is the same: GÇ£improvementGÇ¥ does not mean that it was bad before. "New and Improved" only means that the previous version was "Old and Inferior" in comparison to the updated version - This is not an absolute scale, but a relative one. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc |
Jenahl
Brave Newbies Inc.
25
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Posted - 2013.04.23 22:57:00 -
[205] - Quote
I dont know what the big deal is. Everything was outlined in a Dev Blog in regards to this change. The Dev even let us know how to get all them free skillpoints! I guess no matter how much advance warning you give people, there are always those who live under a rock. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
3281
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 23:01:00 -
[206] - Quote
Jenahl wrote:I dont know what the big deal is. Everything was outlined in a Dev Blog in regards to this change. The Dev even let us know how to get all them free skillpoints! I guess no matter how much advance warning you give people, there are always those who live under a rock.
You can put it on all the splashscreens on the login page, you can make all the Devblogs you want, you can even have it written in the nebulas themselves, the fact is there will ALWAYS be at least 1 who will complain that they werent given enough notice..or any notice at all for that matter. It is the nature of things. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
1406
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 23:02:00 -
[207] - Quote
Jenahl wrote:I dont know what the big deal is. Everything was outlined in a Dev Blog in regards to this change. The Dev even let us know how to get all them free skillpoints! I guess no matter how much advance warning you give people, there are always those who live under a rock. Typically around 10%, in my experience. That was the number I planned for in the Service, and I was rarely far wrong..
Old military axiom: "It doesn't matter how clear the order was, some moron will fail to understand it, and will often get it entirely backwayrds."
General Clarke used to say: "Write orders not so they can be understood, but so they can't be mis-understood." Smart man. Still couldn't get rid of the 10%. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc |
Nathalie LaPorte
Republic University Minmatar Republic
119
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Posted - 2013.04.23 23:04:00 -
[208] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Not that it matters, the non-sequitur is the same: GÇ£improvementGÇ¥ does not mean that it was bad before.
This is simple logic. A non sequitur is an argument that does not follow from the premises. From the premises: ' It was bad after', and 'it's improved', the conclusion : 'it was bad before' does indeed follow. if you want to make an argument that those weren't his premises, fine, go for it--but simply saying "it was about me, not him" isn't a valid argument,; if he makes a non sequitur, it's contained in his premises and his conclusions, not yours. To spend the entire thread saying that he can't understand what you are saying, and then decide in this one instance that he's adopted your premises word-for-word, is untenable.
If you agree that those were his premises, then it's not a non sequitur. QED.
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silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
1406
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Posted - 2013.04.23 23:07:00 -
[209] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:Tippia wrote: Not that it matters, the non-sequitur is the same: GÇ£improvementGÇ¥ does not mean that it was bad before.
This is simple logic. A non sequitur is an argument that does not follow from the premises. From the premises: ' It was bad after', and 'it's improved', the conclusion : 'it was bad before' does indeed follow. No.
It is axiomatic that no matter how good a thing may be, it can always be better. (The converse is also true. Name me a bad condition, I will make it worse). So to declare a previous version of an improved condition to be 'bad,' you must have a referent. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13780
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 23:08:00 -
[210] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:This is simple logic. A non sequitur is an argument that does not follow from the premises. From the premises: ' It was bad after' GǪwhich wasn't a premise to begin with. That it was bad before was a conclusion he reached based on the premise GÇ£it's improvedGÇ¥ GÇö a conclusion that does not follow. He then used this conclusion as the premise for another conclusion: that I should have quitGǪ but the first conclusion is still a non sequitur, so that conclusion second falls.
Quote:simply saying "it was about me, not him" isn't a valid argument Sure it is. It explains why you're getting your premises mixed up. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
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