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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
No No Alignout
Ferox Industries
2
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Posted - 2013.04.24 02:45:00 -
[241] - Quote
Maybe OP knows something we don't and has already won eve
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Jonah Gravenstein
Khalkotauroi Defence Labs
8077
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Posted - 2013.04.24 02:49:00 -
[242] - Quote
No No Alignout wrote:Maybe OP knows something we don't and has already won eve
If the OP had truly won Eve, they'd never log in, and still be able influence large amounts of players. A war hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
dark heartt
I Own Four Sheep The Methodical Alliance
134
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Posted - 2013.04.24 02:55:00 -
[243] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:silens vesica wrote:Frying Doom wrote:How did this thread ever get past the phrase 'get bent' I mean wanting SP because you failed to train something. I am not trained to pilot a titan yet, can I have the SP for that on all of my characters We got hooked by a very capable troll, it appears. Or a really remarkable case of ' densum aeternum.' Well I maybe forever dense but if that is the case I would hate to see the description of someone who believes, they should get SP for not doing something. This is a similar argument to those who believe they should be reimbursed for CCP not warning them about Burn Jita II. It is really not that hard to look at these forums for 15 minutes a week. If people choose not to know what is going on, you can hardly, rationally complain about the choice, to be deaf, dumb and blind.
I just agreed with Frying Doom. This chilled me to my core, but that last part is totally relevant to every Eve player. |
Viktor Corgo
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.04.24 02:55:00 -
[244] - Quote
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:I'm getting SP to spend as I wish by training up battlecruiser to level V on one of my alts who has none of the cruiser skills trained to level III. :)
I think this is unfair as it is only available to new players who have no cruiser skills yet and so we should all get free SP as this is inequitable for all my other alts.
A couple pages ago, but... you're not expecting to get 4 (well, 3 extra) times the SP value sunk into BCV free, right?
BCV with no racial cruiser III is being reimbursed just the cost of your BCV skill -- so, enough to buy up one racial BC skill if you like. It's a waste of training time unless you're just capitalizing on a remap for awhile. |
Asmodai Xodai
Legio Geminatus Gentlemen's Agreement
51
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Posted - 2013.04.24 03:03:00 -
[245] - Quote
The 'failure to plan ahead' counter-argument to OP isn't very good. It can easily be defeated by a player who comes to the game after the change, therefore COULDN'T HAVE failed to plan ahead.
The only counter-argument to OP is that this is simply a reimbursement, nothing more. If something is taken away from you, you must rightly be reimbursed by CCP.
Something is being taken away from us - Battlecruisers V and Destroyers V, which we trained. We must rightly be able to fly these ships in the future if we could fly them in the past. Thus we get racial Battlecruisers V and racial Destroyers V.
You haven't trained BC V or D V, therefore nothing is being taken away from you. You can't fly these ships now. So you shouldn't be able to fly these ships in the future (until you train them).
You are simply asking for free SP, for no good reason.
Those of us affected are receiving SP. But it isn't free - it simply preserves what we already have in terms of piloting ships. In fact, we are actually getting a nerf, because our clone costs are going way up as compared to what they are now. |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
1417
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Posted - 2013.04.24 03:09:00 -
[246] - Quote
Asmodai Xodai wrote:The 'failure to plan ahead' counter-argument to OP isn't very good. It can easily be defeated by a player who comes to the game after the change, therefore COULDN'T HAVE failed to plan ahead. CCP owes nothing to people who arrive after a change. They accept the game as it is, or they don't. End of subject.
Quote:The only counter-argument to OP is that this is simply a reimbursement, nothing more. If something is taken away from you, you must rightly be reimbursed by CCP.
Something is being taken away from us - Battlecruisers V and Destroyers V, which we trained. We must rightly be able to fly these ships in the future if we could fly them in the past. Thus we get racial Battlecruisers V and racial Destroyers V.
You haven't trained BC V or D V, therefore nothing is being taken away from you. You can't fly these ships now. So you shouldn't be able to fly these ships in the future (until you train them).
You are simply asking for free SP, for no good reason.
Those of us affected are receiving SP. But it isn't free - it simply preserves what we already have in terms of piloting ships. In fact, we are actually getting a nerf, because our clone costs are going way up as compared to what they are now. Other than my comment above, spot-on. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13790
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Posted - 2013.04.24 03:10:00 -
[247] - Quote
Asmodai Xodai wrote:The 'failure to plan ahead' counter-argument to OP isn't very good. It can easily be defeated by a player who comes to the game after the change, therefore COULDN'T HAVE failed to plan ahead. WeeeellGǪ it works against the OP because he could have (and still can) plan ahead. The new player is a slightly different argument and is much the same situation as any newcomer after a patch when new skills were introduced: they'll have to train for longer to be able to do the same as the older players. As the game grows older, new players will have more and more skills to choose from; they get to start playing the game as-is, same as everyone else when they started.
The only special feature of this particular skill change is that the split between GÇ£oldGÇ¥ and GÇ£newGÇ¥ doesn't happen on patch day, but up to a month before, which is when it starts to become too late to get that extra-payout BC V/Dessie V combo. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Nathalie LaPorte
Republic University Minmatar Republic
119
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Posted - 2013.04.24 04:04:00 -
[248] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Now, since you prefer your things formal (for no particularly good reason) how about this one: PGéü: If things are bad, they can be improved. PGéé: The skill tree is getting improved, according to Tippia. C: The skill tree was bad, according to Tippia GåÉ non sequitur.
GǪand I'm being generous here by providing an assumed premise that could possibly connect the otherwise disconnected statements and which is intuitive enough that we can suspect that the OP actually might use it. In reality, PGéü is unstated, so we don't even have a complete syllogism. Either way, the conclusion does not follow form the premise(s).
So yes, /discussion indeed GÇö his conditional was a non-sequitur, and his follow-up questions were nonsensical hypotheticals because they hinged on this fallacious assumption. There's really no two ways about it.
I'm sorry, none of that follows from my premises. There's nothing about either Jovians or game shows. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13791
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Posted - 2013.04.24 04:07:00 -
[249] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:I'm sorry, none of that follows from my premises. Good thing that I wasn't talking about them, then. No need to be sorry. Just try harder to grasp the context next time.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Nathalie LaPorte
Republic University Minmatar Republic
119
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Posted - 2013.04.24 04:11:00 -
[250] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Nathalie LaPorte wrote:I'm sorry, none of that follows from my premises. Good thing that I wasn't talking about them, then. No need to be sorry. Just try harder to grasp the context next time.
I'm sorry, I'm not willing to try harder to grasp your non sequiturs, because they're non sequiturs. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13791
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Posted - 2013.04.24 04:13:00 -
[251] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:I'm sorry, I'm not willing to try harder to grasp your non sequiturs. Good thing that it wasn't a non sequitur you needed to grasp, then, but a context.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Nathalie LaPorte
Republic University Minmatar Republic
119
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Posted - 2013.04.24 04:16:00 -
[252] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Nathalie LaPorte wrote:I'm sorry, I'm not willing to try harder to grasp your non sequiturs. Good thing that it wasn't a non sequitur you needed to grasp, then, but a context.
I'm sorry, but that doesn't follow from my premises either. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13791
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Posted - 2013.04.24 04:19:00 -
[253] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:I'm sorry, but that doesn't follow from my premises either. Good thing that I wasn't talking about them, then. No need to be sorry. Just try harder to grasp the context next time.
Also, from your inability to actually present any kind of argument, I'm hereby concluding that you've realised not just that I was right all along, but also why, and you're feeling a bit silly about having missed something that obvious in spite of all your talk about logic.
It's ok. At least now you know a bit more about non sequiturs and the different guises they may take. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Ryuu Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
34
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Posted - 2013.04.24 04:31:00 -
[254] - Quote
...ok this premises and context thing is just getting a little silly now don't you both think?? Ganking miners has gone too far. Ganking is wrong, and bad. There should be a new, stronger word for Ganking like badwrong or badong. Yes, Ganking is badong. From this moment, I will stand for the opposite of Ganking, gnodab. - Said no-one, ever. |
Nathalie LaPorte
Republic University Minmatar Republic
119
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Posted - 2013.04.24 04:34:00 -
[255] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Also, from your inability to actually present any kind of argument, I'm hereby concluding that you've realised not just that I was right all along, but also why, and you're feeling a bit silly about having missed something that obvious in spite of all your talk about logic..
Nice combination, the "claim the argument you just responded to 20 times isn't actually a real argument at all" plus the "hereby conclude that I win" plus the "impute negative emotions to the other party". Impressive.
That is a serious 3fer of illogical rhetorical device. However, it still doesn't fol...I forget what comes next. |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3080
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Posted - 2013.04.24 04:38:00 -
[256] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote:Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:Hi everyone. Probably my post will bring a lot of criticism but I want to make a point. Due to ship skills revamp people who train Destroyers V and Battlecriusers V are going to get around 6mil SP. That is fine. But players who dont do that will get nothing.
I propose that players who decided not to train the mentioned skill get partial recompensation (say 30% of the max possible skills). For example, if someone gets zero additional SP from summer expansion he qualifies for 6x0.3 = 2m free SP to allocate. If the player gets 2m SP from summer expansion he qualifies for (6-2)x0.3 = 1,3m free SP to allocate etc.
Some of u will object because we all knew that in advance and could train Destroyers V and Battlecriusers V. BUT while for older players 20-30 days of training is nothing newer players cant afford to spend so much time on 1-2 skills. It gives unfair advantage to older players and players who already have Destroyers V and Battlecriusers V over newer player.
That's why I propose recompensation. So let me get this right - You want a reward for failing to plan ahead for a change that has been announced for at least 6 - 9 months. How about No? Does No work for you?
I would like your post but you're sitting at 1337 likes, and it seemed fitting. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13791
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 04:38:00 -
[257] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:Nice combination, the "claim the argument you just responded to 20 times isn't actually a real argument at all" plus the "hereby conclude that I win" plus the "impute negative emotions to the other party". Impressive. GǪand, until evidence comes along to falsify or cast any kind of doubt on it, remains the only sane conclusion.
Oh, and you've only posted 3 times since the statement was made GÇö none of them actually addressing the statement GÇö so claiming that the GÇ£the argument you responded to 20 timeGÇ¥ isn't an argument (by virtue of not existing at all) is quite easy.
Quote:However, it still doesn't follow from my premises. GǪwhich it doesn't have to, since they aren't germane to the topic at hand.
Now, would you like to take a stab at proving me wrong aboutGǪ wellGǪ anything? Or at least offer some argument towards that effect? Perhaps you would like to read up on what a GÇ£non sequiturGÇ¥ is, rather than rely on a very limited (and ultimately insufficient) dictionary definition? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Nathalie LaPorte
Republic University Minmatar Republic
119
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Posted - 2013.04.24 04:53:00 -
[258] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Now, would you like to take a stab at proving me wrong aboutGǪ wellGǪ anything? Or at least offer some argument towards that effect? Perhaps you would like to read up on what a Gǣnon sequiturGǥ is, rather than rely on a very limited (and ultimately insufficient) dictionary definition?
I'm sorry, but emulating you and listening to you argue against your own arguments is much superior.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13791
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Posted - 2013.04.24 04:59:00 -
[259] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:I'm sorry, but emulating you and listening to you argue against your own arguments is much superior. Maybe you should try doing that then. It got you nowhere the first time since you failed to pick up on the actual answer and instead went off on an irrelevant tangent, but maybe second time's the charm.
Meanwhile, would you like to take a stab at proving me wrong aboutGǪ wellGǪ anything? Or at least offer some argument towards that effect? Perhaps you would like to read up on what a GÇ£non sequiturGÇ¥ is, rather than rely on a very limited (and ultimately insufficient) dictionary definition? Maybe you can demonstrate how PGéü and PGéé actually leads to C? Or even better, how PGéé leads to C without PGéü GÇö that would be interestingGǪ
GǪor you can keep evading, further highlighting your inability to actually present a coherent argument. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Domina Trix
McKNOBBLER DRINKING CLAN
37
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Posted - 2013.04.24 05:14:00 -
[260] - Quote
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:Hi everyone. Probably my post will bring a lot of criticism but I want to make a point. Due to ship skills revamp people who train Destroyers V and Battlecriusers V are going to get around 6mil SP. That is fine. But players who dont do that will get nothing.
I propose that players who decided not to train the mentioned skill get partial recompensation (say 30% of the max possible skills). For example, if someone gets zero additional SP from summer expansion he qualifies for 6x0.3 = 2m free SP to allocate. If the player gets 2m SP from summer expansion he qualifies for (6-2)x0.3 = 1,3m free SP to allocate etc.
Some of u will object because we all knew that in advance and could train Destroyers V and Battlecriusers V. BUT while for older players 20-30 days of training is nothing newer players cant afford to spend so much time on 1-2 skills. It gives unfair advantage to older players and players who already have Destroyers V and Battlecriusers V over newer player.
That's why I propose recompensation.
A players total SP is irrelevant to anything in the game apart from maybe e-peen. It is where the player has spent the SP that makes the difference.
An older player has no advantage having battlecruisers V over a newer player, once the change happens and they get all the racial battlecruisers at 5 do you think they are going to fly them all at once? no, they are going to work out which one suits their playstyle and go with that one just the same as a sensible new player is going to.
What you are asking for is basically 1.3 mill free sp to spend where you like for anyone who hasn't trained a particular skill. How unfair is that?
Two of the defining characteristics of a carebear are wanting other players to play the way the carebear wants and whining on the forums for the game to change when they don't. Yet I see more threads on these forums from gankers than I do miners whining about wanting the game changed to suit them. |
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Nathalie LaPorte
Republic University Minmatar Republic
119
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Posted - 2013.04.24 05:40:00 -
[261] - Quote
Tippia wrote: GǪor you can keep evading, further highlighting your inability to actually present a coherent argument.
...or you can keep insulting me, with zingless ad hominems that make a mockery of any facade of coherent logic, but lack any kind of punch to be effective as an insult.
Tippia wrote:Maybe you can demonstrate how PGéü and PGéé actually leads to C?.
Very simple:
PGéü: Current skill system is bad. PGéé: Current skill system is better than before. C: Old skill system was bad.
Could not be more obvious. I don't agree with either premise, or the conclusion, but that's not at issue here. PGéü + PGéé => C, so it's not a non sequitur. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
329
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 05:42:00 -
[262] - Quote
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:All posts like 'deal with it' are not valid here. I want official CCP response. Didn't think this thread could improve any further. Definitely got that wrong.
Remove insurance. |
Abraham Nalelmir
FATAL Warfare
0
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Posted - 2013.04.24 05:44:00 -
[263] - Quote
1- I am a new player, I dropped all my Guardian plans, T2 large guns plans, even I delayed hull upgrades 5 just to train BC to 5 2- They "decided" they are responsible for their decision 3- Giving them 2 million SP FREE to allocate anywhere is not fair for me, I who spent 1.5 months maxing out BC & Destroyers with all racial frigates/cruisers skills
I have joined after the titan nerf and after caps were kicked out of high sec, am I entitled to have a titan and a cap in my starting home system? |
Royal Executioner Shazih
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1
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Posted - 2013.04.24 05:51:00 -
[264] - Quote
Abraham Nalelmir wrote:1- I am a new player, I dropped all my Guardian plans, T2 large guns plans, even I delayed hull upgrades 5 just to train BC to 5 2- They "decided" they are responsible for their decision 3- Giving them 2 million SP FREE to allocate anywhere is not fair for me, I who spent 1.5 months maxing out BC & Destroyers with all racial frigates/cruisers skills
I have joined after the titan nerf and after caps were kicked out of high sec, am I entitled to have a titan and a cap in my starting home system?
U still get 6mil SP, which is way better than 2. |
Nathalie LaPorte
Republic University Minmatar Republic
119
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 05:55:00 -
[265] - Quote
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:Abraham Nalelmir wrote:1- I am a new player, I dropped all my Guardian plans, T2 large guns plans, even I delayed hull upgrades 5 just to train BC to 5 2- They "decided" they are responsible for their decision 3- Giving them 2 million SP FREE to allocate anywhere is not fair for me, I who spent 1.5 months maxing out BC & Destroyers with all racial frigates/cruisers skills
I have joined after the titan nerf and after caps were kicked out of high sec, am I entitled to have a titan and a cap in my starting home system? U still get 6mil SP, which is way better than 2.
6 mil SP spent somewhere you now regret is way worse than 2m unallocated SP. If you're willing to consider someone who regrets not training BC, why won't you consider someone who regrets the opposite?
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Royal Executioner Shazih
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1
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Posted - 2013.04.24 06:01:00 -
[266] - Quote
Georgina Parmala wrote:Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:Let's take League of legends. Players ask for sale there all the time and no1 writes like' hey I paid for that char full price, so u have too'. Even when I bought a char for full price and it was put on sale 2 weeks later I never flamed about it, because I've already been enjoying it for 2 weeks.
But EVE players played EVE too much and so here all I get is: 'EVE is harsh. Deal with it. etc.' U guys forgot that EVE just a game. Yes, lets. There are no "skill point" sales in league. There are "Aurum" sales. Kind of like EvE has PLEX bundle sales. This relates to character progression how? Oh right, you can buy boosts in league that increase leveling speed for noobs, kind of like buying PLEX to fund implants in EvE. Also, the reason people tell you to deal with it when you buy a character that then goes on sale, is the sales are announced well in advance. Sound familiar? They reduce in-game prices of old characters over time. Kind of like EvE is about to reduce training requirements on specialized ships. Both have the same goal - to help a new player catch up to a competitive level. You're just mad that I have every single champion in the League. That **** took effort. Err, made a skill plan that gave me what I wanted out of the skill changes. (Disclaimer: I don't actually have every single champion in league - any more, since I started playing EvE I'm about 10 short)
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Dave Stark
2803
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 06:08:00 -
[267] - Quote
this thread is at 13 pages?
christ. didn't we already decide the OP is a moron and nobody should get free sp for making bad choices? |
Royal Executioner Shazih
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1
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Posted - 2013.04.24 06:09:00 -
[268] - Quote
Nathalie LaPorte wrote:Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:Abraham Nalelmir wrote:1- I am a new player, I dropped all my Guardian plans, T2 large guns plans, even I delayed hull upgrades 5 just to train BC to 5 2- They "decided" they are responsible for their decision 3- Giving them 2 million SP FREE to allocate anywhere is not fair for me, I who spent 1.5 months maxing out BC & Destroyers with all racial frigates/cruisers skills
I have joined after the titan nerf and after caps were kicked out of high sec, am I entitled to have a titan and a cap in my starting home system? U still get 6mil SP, which is way better than 2. 6 mil SP spent somewhere you now regret is way worse than 2m unallocated SP. If you're willing to consider someone who regrets not training BC, why won't you consider someone who regrets the opposite?
I guess there is a fraction that would satisfy both. |
Nathalie LaPorte
Republic University Minmatar Republic
120
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 06:13:00 -
[269] - Quote
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:
I guess there is a fraction that would satisfy both.
If this thread hasn't shown you that there really isn't, then I don't know what to say :/
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4683
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 06:14:00 -
[270] - Quote
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:Can u remind me how much ever-growing EVE has? The ever-growing EVE that isn't free to play like LoL is? Module activation timers are buggy. CCP please fix. |
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