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Scrapyard Bob EVE University Ivy League 31	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:09:00 - [901] - Quote The economics of this don't add up, at all. For a P1 harvest world (harvest P0, output P1) in hi-sec, most worlds generate between 1500 and 3500 units of P1 per day which is then exported at 0.76/u (which is, according to CCP, about a "5%" tax rate). That means a hi-sec P1 harvest world generates about 1100-2600 ISK/day in taxes (the tax burden of 0.76 vs market value of the P1 is about 0.12-0.24% currently). Lo-sec, let's assume that you can harvest 2x more and that null-sec you can harvest 5x more per day. Each P1 harvest colony then produces between 2200-5200 ISK/day in lo-sec and 5500-13000 ISK/day in null space if taxed at the 5% rate. But we'll say the owners are greedy and charge 100%. So multiply that by 20 and we get 44000-104000 ISK/day in lo-sec and 110000-260000 per day in null. So for a lo-sec PI harvest world, we can expect that the colony owner will (at most) pay about 75k ISK/day and the null-sec colony owner will pay about 185k ISK/day. Over the course of a month, that solo colony will pay 2.25M ISK in lo-sec and 5.55M ISK in null-sec. If a micro-POCO costs 50k ISK/day in fuel and a large-POCO costs about 200-300k ISK/day in fuel then the fuel costs can be paid for as long as there is a single colony on the planet. So fuel costs of that magnitude would not be a huge burden (a large POCO would only cost you 9M/mo in fuel). The main issue is going to be payback of constructing the darned thing in the first place. If we were given a micro-POCO that could be built for about 30M ISK and could anchor about 30M ISK worth of defensive modules, then we would have 60M ISK that needs to be recouped through taxes. If we want a 2-month payback (which is long for EVE) then we need 14 tenants in lo-sec and 6 tenants in null-sec. But with a large-POCO (costing about 250M for the POCO + defenses), you would need 23 tenants in null-sec and 56 tenants in a low-sec world. Assuming, of course, that you can charge the 100% tax rate. Basically, taxes on P1 and P2 are going to have to go up, because the current tax rates won't be high enough to make a P1 harvest world viable enough for the owner to put up a POCO at all. Even if they set their tax rate at 100%.
Anselm Cenobite Gold Ring Enterprises Resonance Cascade Scenario 0	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:10:00 - [902] - Quote CCP Omen wrote: Midnight Hope wrote: If you are going to blow up every PO on launch date, I hope you thought what you are going to do with all the stuff in those offices. Are you going to blow it up as well?? I can already see PI prices spiking, regardless of the increase in link capacity. The stuff that you have in the CO's will be teleported to a station hangar. I forgot the exact details of which station etc. Huh? What about in Wormholes ,where there are no stations to have hangars, but only POSes? Will it be teleported into Corporate Hangar Arrays then? Or into XLSAAs for those of us who use that as the Corp Hangar?
Kassasis Dakkstromri Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse 16	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:14:00 - [903] - Quote Dominus Alterai wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Dominus Alterai wrote: If a group of bored pirates in battleships finds a POCO, they may decide to reinforce it just because they can. I can see these as a way to lure out defending fleets and get more fights, not just for PI reasons. You are exactly right. People will attack these POCO to provoke more fights so CCP are creating new battle fields in addition to people just fighting on stations, gates and belts. If this is CCP's intention, then let them say it, but CCP Omen as repeatedly said that his is a purely economic decision. because let's face it, people like ISK more than kills right? (That's sarcasm btw) Dominus your mistaken - CCP Omen clearly stated that this change is intended for a political element (back on pg. 11) He said: *"Yes, we don't incentivize taking Customs Offices down, other than if you want the spot or want to refuse the current owner access. We want it to be a political feature more than a mechanical one."* (Underline, Bold, Italics added for emphasis) But again... the change is tolerable so long as we have the ability to make informed decisions as to which POCO's we want to use based on remote statistics of any sort, even basic ones, that does not force a trail and error methodology. As it stands right now, I'm back up on the fence on this change until I hear or see what if any peripherial changes are to be added in regards to search feature and informational research on POCO owners and their POCO statistics via the MAP for example.
Dragnkat HAMMER STAR BLADE Universal Paranoia Alliance 18	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:15:00 - [904] - Quote Just a quick post before I leave for work @omen. Go check the prices at dod right now. It's not just robotics but every material in the chain. chirai, precious, reactive, and toxic are now all selling at per unit prices easily double or close to triple what it was not even a month ago. Already cruising past 500 per unit in some cases. Makes me wish I had kept my robotics high sec setup rather then trying to dip my toes into low to make nano factories. the irony is I'd probably be twice as rich. This is before you've even caused a further price spike by the plan to scrap all the npc custom offices. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE RETHINK THIS! Or at the very least leave us options! Leave the npcs till a player builds one, increase rocket cap, do one of the many good ideas that have been listed in this thread countless times before you ram this through. That is unless your actual goal is another monocle scandal, wrecking the PI economy (among other things) Or really just do want to show that EVE is only for the megacorps and screw everyone else. From the casual couple hours a day perspective I've got it's beginning to feel that way once again. And I'm sure a lot of us would like to see how sec made more viable as a place to play, not turned into a ghost town or a way for the big boys to just steamroll everyone not them that much more.
Anselm Cenobite Gold Ring Enterprises Resonance Cascade Scenario 0	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:16:00 - [905] - Quote Pipip Mendicant wrote: Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable. It forces corps that want one to first be strong enough to take one down, leaves current production temporarily in place, and lets you test your new mechanic on a large scale before the PI market gets out of control if your assumptions were wrong. Not to mention that it leaves ninja PI in place until some large entity takes an interest in your out-of-the-way system, which helps out the little guy. ^ This.
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 58	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:16:00 - [906] - Quote Davelantor wrote: so, in best situation ... a PvP corp will take over the POCO's and set 10% tax (not to mention it will be most likely 25% .. because lets face it .. people are assholes) ... because our corp cant divide resources to camp a spot in middle of nowhere just for a single PI guy can enjoy 0% tax ... NO .. instead now we pay 10% tax .. AND have to compete with WH and 0.0 PI noobs that can and will drive the prices as low as they can because they dont pay any tax for production. Not to mention while this is happening, a typical new starter that will be very likely confined to high sec. cant get any profit, because he doesnt have enough isk to export the material from the planet ... AWESOME :D Why would you camp a spot. If someone reinforces your PCO you know exactly when it comes out. Now if you don't have the manpower to deal with the threat at that time, that is a separate issue that has nothing to do with PI. To kill the enemy and break their toys! It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto.
Dominus Alterai No Bullshit Jokers Wild. 30	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:17:00 - [907] - Quote Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: Dominus Alterai wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Dominus Alterai wrote: If a group of bored pirates in battleships finds a POCO, they may decide to reinforce it just because they can. I can see these as a way to lure out defending fleets and get more fights, not just for PI reasons. You are exactly right. People will attack these POCO to provoke more fights so CCP are creating new battle fields in addition to people just fighting on stations, gates and belts. If this is CCP's intention, then let them say it, but CCP Omen as repeatedly said that his is a purely economic decision. because let's face it, people like ISK more than kills right? (That's sarcasm btw) Dominus your mistaken - CCP Omen clearly stated that this change is intended for a political element (back on pg. 11) He said: *"Yes, we don't incentivize taking Customs Offices down, other than if you want the spot or want to refuse the current owner access. We want it to be a political feature more than a mechanical one."* (Underline, Bold, Italics added for emphasis) But again... the change is tolerable so long as we have the ability to make informed decisions as to which POCO's we want to use based on remote statistics of any sort, even basic ones, that does not force a trail and error methodology. As it stands right now, I'm back up on the fence on this change until I hear or see what if any peripherial changes are to be added in regards to search feature and informational research on POCO owners and their POCO statistics via the MAP for example. I stand corrected. But in any case, a search function would almost certainly be necessary. I wouldn't want to go 20 jumps to a system with the right planets and find out that it's either owned already or the offices there charge 100% without standings.
Daedalus II The Older Gamers 57	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:19:00 - [908] - Quote I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, or if this will even be read this far into the thread, but a functionality that would be needed now is an ability to see at a glance if I can even use PI on a given planet, perhaps via map filters. Also in case I can use PI, I need to know the tax rate of it. This is important information when setting up a new PI network. Essentially I see these levels: A. This planet has no customs office B. This planet has a customs office, but it's locked for you C. This planet has a customs office that is available to you (+ tax rate) In case of C I also need to know the tax rate of it. Without getting this information on an easy overview, it will be extremely hard to figure out where to set up shop. Maybe I after much searching finds a system consisting of exactly the planets I need to produce some commodity. Only to find out once there that one of the planets are locked for me and therefore the whole chain collapses. It's also extremely hard to find a good deal; maybe the system next door has much better taxes, but you have to manually fly there and check out every damn office to know that. What if you have hundreds of potential systems? it will take forever to check them all out. How are those who sell their customs services going to be able to attract customers if the customers can't find out that they are the cheapest to use? A market where you can't easily compare different deals is a pretty crappy market.
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 58	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:19:00 - [909] - Quote Dominus Alterai wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Dominus Alterai wrote: If a group of bored pirates in battleships finds a POCO, they may decide to reinforce it just because they can. I can see these as a way to lure out defending fleets and get more fights, not just for PI reasons. You are exactly right. People will attack these POCO to provoke more fights so CCP are creating new battle fields in addition to people just fighting on stations, gates and belts. If this is CCP's intention, then let them say it, but CCP Omen as repeatedly said that his is a purely economic decision. because let's face it, people like ISK more than kills right? (That's sarcasm btw) I don't remember him ever saying that this was purely about economics actually. Perhaps I missed something. To kill the enemy and break their toys! It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto.
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 58	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:27:00 - [910] - Quote Daedalus II wrote: I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, or if this will even be read this far into the thread, but a functionality that would be needed now is an ability to see at a glance if I can even use PI on a given planet, perhaps via map filters. Also in case I can use PI, I need to know the tax rate of it. This is important information when setting up a new PI network. Essentially I see these levels: A. This planet has no customs office B. This planet has a customs office, but it's locked for you C. This planet has a customs office that is available to you (+ tax rate) In case of C I also need to know the tax rate of it. Without getting this information on an easy overview, it will be extremely hard to figure out where to set up shop. Maybe I after much searching finds a system consisting of exactly the planets I need to produce some commodity. Only to find out once there that one of the planets are locked for me and therefore the whole chain collapses. It's also extremely hard to find a good deal; maybe the system next door has much better taxes, but you have to manually fly there and check out every damn office to know that. What if you have hundreds of potential systems? it will take forever to check them all out. How are those who sell their customs services going to be able to attract customers if the customers can't find out that they are the cheapest to use? A market where you can't easily compare different deals is a pretty crappy market. I would prefer they simply remove the ability to restrict access by standings first, and then put the relevant tax information on the map. Remember, restricting by placing a 100% tax on your PCO also means that except for corp "drones" your average corp members will not use the planet either. To kill the enemy and break their toys! It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto.

Tas Nok Hedion University Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:29:00 - [911] - Quote Steve Ronuken wrote: Tas Nok wrote: TL:DR I'm out 114.3 mil on PI 1.0 64.8mil on PI 2.0 and now PI 3.0 will cost me 558mil, apparently PI needs to be nerfed repeatedly? So... You've not made any money at all from PI? Odd, as I'm pulling, with minimal effort, around 10 mil a week, per planet. And that's far from optimal. Risk free isk isn't the way of Eve. Fair point, I've made between 0-30mil a week depending on prices and if I was even able to do PI. Factor in Taxes, POS fuel, and war decs and it was less than the 10 mil average because I had to go inactive to keep a low profile. now factor in the 480mil on defenseless, destructible POCO's and while I'm trying to keep a low profile, my corp logo is out there for all to see on 6 useful planets on the overview. no one cares about my POS on a crap moon, and it will shoot back (yes it has been reinforced for lol's but crap moon in crap space + dickstar + waiting 36 hours = not worth it... YET) these offices are just targets waiting to happen, its not even griefers I expect, its really going to be the lol-idiot who decides to kill every office in the constellation just because he can for the free KM and the isk bump on his KB, if he gets a fight even better! his blob will be on standby to wipe them out. perhaps the reinforcement timer will help but if I have to move a carrier here full time just to rep my customs offices, then this is a losing proposition until prices spike so high that HS becomes profitable again I don't expect Eve to be risk free, far from it, that's why I don't run missions anymore, but for something vital to the operation of corp assets and the eve economy this is an odd way to make it better. and YES it is possible that between LS yarr watching their wallets flash to go kill the cloaky hauler , to offices put up and protected by huge alliances, and the HS production which just got a boost, but also will get a higher tax, this might all wash out because just what eve needs is another pile of immovable objects to shoot at.
ThaWolf The Executives Executive Outcomes 7	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:31:00 - [912] - Quote Well this looks like a small gang pvp opurtunity, which i would love from the pvp perspective, but thats not what it rely is. This is the death blow on EVE Industry. POS fuel will skyrocket, which will cause that T2 Invention (gambling) will now finally fall off to be cost effective, which it barely is atm, so ppl will stop doing it, T2 Items and Ship prices will skyrocket, all of EVE will fly Drakes and Canes with T1 Items again. Why? PI is crap, not as much as a clickfest as it was but still far too much and still entirely unfunny for a GAME! Now it will become Corporate Controlled instead of being personal Industry, which means that ppl doing PI in Lowsek and NPC 0.0 (PI in Empire it utterly worthless), with great risk (loosing a Covert hauler is worth months of PI) will just plainly stop doing it, since the local thugs will just blow up the COs if somebody is stupid enough to put one up there. Industry nerv is exactly what EVE needs atm....
Dominus Alterai No Bullshit Jokers Wild. 30	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:38:00 - [913] - Quote ThaWolf wrote: Well this looks like a small gang pvp opurtunity, which i would love from the pvp perspective, but thats not what it rely is. This is the death blow on EVE Industry. POS fuel will skyrocket, which will cause that T2 Invention (gambling) will now finally fall off to be cost effective, which it barely is atm, so ppl will stop doing it, T2 Items and Ship prices will skyrocket, all of EVE will fly Drakes and Canes with T1 Items again. Why? PI is crap, not as much as a clickfest as it was but still far too much and still entirely unfunny for a GAME! Now it will become Corporate Controlled instead of being personal Industry, which means that ppl doing PI in Lowsek and NPC 0.0 (PI in Empire it utterly worthless), with great risk (loosing a Covert hauler is worth months of PI) will just plainly stop doing it, since the local thugs will just blow up the COs if somebody is stupid enough to put one up there. Industry nerv is exactly what EVE needs atm.... THIS^^ The eve market is almost all inter-related. PI product prices go up, which means fuel costs go up, which means prices for everything made or invented or researched at a POS will go up. Unless CCP is planning on giving the high sec planets a slight buff, I completely agree. Here comes the T1 drake blobs all over again...
Kassasis Dakkstromri Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse 16	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:52:00 - [914] - Quote CCP Omen I'm coming to the realization that it's not POCO that is at issue, it is those things that are being left out of development of POCO that is at issue: - HSec Custom's Office need not to have a 100% Tariff right at release!? - Based on your own responses, about waiting and observing, and taking action as necessary; it is unconscionable to place that type of tariff on day one. - Such NPC-CO Tariff increases should be implemented on a phased basis, if nothing else for economic considerations (and I don't just mean mine personally) - and should be fairly similar to how BPO Research is done via NPC Stations, vs. POS Research Arrays. Yes increase the tariff, but be rational about its implementation, since you and your team admittedly are only speculating that this change will work as intended from the outset, and will require continued monitoring and refinement. And lowering the defaults to artificially regulate the taxation rates is a flawed strategy. - I also am at a loss as to why trade skills, including social skills, were not included in having an impact on HSec tariff rates - no different than Recycling, and Market transactions are impacted by skills??! - No mention of any type of research tools on POCO's via the MAP or otherwise? - Plus your WIPING OUT all NPC-CO's upon release!? Instead of simply nerfing them as regards m3 volumes, etc. to such an extent that it becomes essential as well as advantageous to destroy the thing and put on a POCO???!! While this change as presented has merit, this is negligent implementation for such a remarkably complex game; it is Shooting at Structures as has been pointed out, and should have been clearly stated as to where this change is meant to take us (i.e. moving toward DUST 514), without adding peripherial POCO research tools has the potential to severly disenfranchise PI colony operators, has the serious potential to create a economic shock to the market and game which is now dependent on player driven commocities! I see this being akin to the removal of ship spinning... and Team Pi should proceed cautiously and learn from such mistakes. Lastly, while this is CCP's game, and as a company you can not always do what the vocal minority wants you to do, admitedly there is so much positive development that has been brought to it over the years... that I do still trust CCP's development motivations; however, I hope every desk at CCP (world wide) has a hard copy of Hilmar's appology letter hanging next to their desk - that they read it every day they start work so a proper perspective is always maintained. Because EVE is growing so complex, that after the CSM, and when you open planned features to public input (like this thread), that CCP DevBlog posts need to also 'clearly' inform us that WE the community are being given an opportunity to provide positive and helpful feedback? Instead of being told of things being a good idea, or being added to the wish list by way of placation. I really hope you will answer these points. Because the more I consider what's being left out of this change the more concerned I become.
Tetragammatron Prime Pink Sockers 8	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:53:00 - [915] - Quote If someone makes their customs office inaccessible to you there will always be others owned by reasonable people who welcome the neutral haulers into their space for the small profit through tax and potential killmails.
Buruk Utama Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 30	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:56:00 - [916] - Quote We've seen 2 devs stick their heads in here and back out quickly. I hope they realize what a clustercrap this change is and how many things they didn't think about when making the change. What happened to identifying a problem and fixing it instead of trying to make the current PI process relevant to DUST? A question to the devs, with all the problems brought out in this thread, are you going to actually take anything stated here and rethink your deployment or act like this thread didn't exist and feign surprise when it craps with the game? The one thing I have taken from this thread is how disconnected the developers are to the game. When the main premise for making this change work is a "hope" the players work together and not understanding why a corporation would lockout someone v. "making isk from taxes" really shows why this game is dying and why CCP has to start cutting staff. The "we'll watch and make changes if needed" is a bold face lie. How long did it take to make the first PI changes, while we are at it how about the FW changes, POS changes, Sov changes, etc etc etc. CCP doesn't fix things once it is in game, you move on to the next shiny. I'm sorry but team PI is only here to make the connection between DUST and EVE, they have no clue about the existing game mechanics and will send another group of people packing when you nerf industry like this.
Buruk Utama Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 30	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:58:00 - [917] - Quote Tetragammatron Prime wrote: If someone makes their customs office inaccessible to you there will always be others owned by reasonable people who welcome the neutral haulers into their space for the small profit through tax and potential killmails. Translation: Lulz we took your tax money, killed your hauler, and now have all sorts of valuable industry goodies that took us no effort/time/cost to produce while orgying around our KB.
Kassasis Dakkstromri Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse 16	Posted - 2011.10.19 17:59:00 - [918] - Quote Tetragammatron Prime wrote: If someone makes their customs office inaccessible to you there will always be others owned by reasonable people who welcome the neutral haulers into their space for the small profit through tax and potential killmails. Through what mechanism? No information has been presented by Team Pi regarding any search-ability function associated with POCO's I think they need to be allowed to connect with the team that works on ingame metrics and the MAP to make this change practical, and not a POCO Beta

CCP Nullarbor C C P C C P Alliance 1	Posted - 2011.10.19 18:09:00 - [919] - Quote Daedalus II wrote: It's also extremely hard to find a good deal; maybe the system next door has much better taxes, but you have to manually fly there and check out every damn office to know that. What if you have hundreds of potential systems? it will take forever to check them all out. Tax rate is available to you while you are in system but you can see them all on the overview so you don't need to actually fly up to each one. I will cite technical complexity as the reason it isn't initially available to everyone / everywhere but I can also see an argument for exploration as being part of the PI gameplay anyway. Re comments about not responding, give us some time, today has been a particularly rough day at CCP. We did have a meeting this morning to discuss the many ideas and comments in this thread and some points are being acting on already so hang tight.

rootimus maximus School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 3	Posted - 2011.10.19 18:12:00 - [920] - Quote Par'Gellen wrote: Here are the four things PI really needs:... I wish there was a way to vote for you to be in charge of PI. All excellent points that would drastically improve PI (and use it as a template for fixing other stuff, like S&I).

Smoking Blunts Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD. 114	Posted - 2011.10.19 18:17:00 - [921] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: Daedalus II wrote: It's also extremely hard to find a good deal; maybe the system next door has much better taxes, but you have to manually fly there and check out every damn office to know that. What if you have hundreds of potential systems? it will take forever to check them all out. Tax rate is available to you while you are in system but you can see them all on the overview so you don't need to actually fly up to each one. I will cite technical complexity as the reason it isn't initially available to everyone / everywhere but I can also see an argument for exploration as being part of the PI gameplay anyway. Re comments about not responding, give us some time, today has been a particularly rough day at CCP. We did have a meeting this morning to discuss the many ideas and comments in this thread and some points are being acting on already so hang tight. are you forgetting this crap and rebuilding pi form the ground up? making it liek what you said it was gonna be(close will do) at the fanfest 09? CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
Kassasis Dakkstromri Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse 17	Posted - 2011.10.19 18:29:00 - [922] - Quote If NPC-CO's are tarifed at 100% then this will become the benchmark, and there is very low incentive to adjust Low Sec POCO's to a lower tarif... Why? Because of resource concentrations! The Supply Demand principle isn't the existence of the POCO, the Supply Demand principle is in the richness of resource concentrations. Therefore Corporations have no incentive to lower tarifs below their maximum since the demand will be on the resource concentrations and not on the tarif rate... To discourage 100% tarifs the NPC-CO tarif benchmark must be set to a level that allows a market sustainability without resorting to CCP tampering with the price benchmarks for commodity tarifs. This should not become a zero sum game, and a more compromised approach to NPC-CO's needs to be reviewed. ** And for God's sake don't wipe all the NPC-CO's - at the very least phase them out by: - Making them attackable in those regions where they are slated to be replaced - Nerf them so there is an incentive to replace them with a POCO - (or at the minimum - do this solely with Temperate and Barren planets since by design they are the planets that see the majority of Import and Export activity)
Scrapyard Bob EVE University Ivy League 33	Posted - 2011.10.19 18:31:00 - [923] - Quote Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: Tetragammatron Prime wrote: If someone makes their customs office inaccessible to you there will always be others owned by reasonable people who welcome the neutral haulers into their space for the small profit through tax and potential killmails. Through what mechanism? No information has been presented by Team Pi regarding any search-ability function associated with POCO's I think they need to be allowed to connect with the team that works on ingame metrics and the MAP to make this change practical, and not a POCO Beta It should be possible to search for them through the Science and Industry window - but you should only be able to see POCOs that you are allowed to use. By limiting the S&I window searching to only the POCOs that you qualify for, an organization that wishes to "fly by night" and keep a low profile could simply restrict usage of the POCO to their closest friends (or just their corp members). Their POCO would not show up on the S&I screen and in order for someone to find the POCO they would have to fly out to the planet's customs office location and look (just like a modern POS). This would give security to the POCO similar to that of existing POS towers in that you would have to survey the system regularly to find POCOs that don't show up in the S&I window. I don't believe that POCOs should show up on the overview unless on-grid, but their warp-in points should (just like moons - the moons are on the overview, but the towers are not unless you are on-grid). The S&I window would need a filter for "current solar system", "current constellation", "current region" - just like when you search for lab slots.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 184	Posted - 2011.10.19 18:31:00 - [924] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: Daedalus II wrote: It's also extremely hard to find a good deal; maybe the system next door has much better taxes, but you have to manually fly there and check out every damn office to know that. What if you have hundreds of potential systems? it will take forever to check them all out. Tax rate is available to you while you are in system but you can see them all on the overview so you don't need to actually fly up to each one. I will cite technical complexity as the reason it isn't initially available to everyone / everywhere but I can also see an argument for exploration as being part of the PI gameplay anyway. Re comments about not responding, give us some time, today has been a particularly rough day at CCP. We did have a meeting this morning to discuss the many ideas and comments in this thread and some points are being acting on already so hang tight. I'm guilty of that, fair enough, please accept the apologies of the anxiously impatient. Request for consideration - accessibility to our PI in wormholes should the customs offices go "poof" and we don't have these players owned things yet... the launching mechanic won't work because our PI isn't attached anymore to the command center... it's moved around following the resources. The likely prohibitive cost of these facilities (at least initially) will make it take forever, if at all, to recoup the cost... especially in wormholes where we're not taxing our own people for the fuel they're putting in the pos. Also the need to import materials to planets without these things. It really feels like wormhole considerations were overlooked. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Lady Zarrina Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 14	Posted - 2011.10.19 18:33:00 - [925] - Quote All this doom and gloom. I think this change will be great. Sure prices will spike, sure somethings will become more expensive (T2 production, POS's etc). But there will be many chances to profit also. Everyone can set up PI with very little training. And hi-sec PI will cost a little more with taxes, but that cost will just get passed on or you can move to a player run CO if you think the prices are too high. You have the option. And who knows, we may have a few more battles over these POCO's, which is always a good thing. Allocate resources to FiS
Scrapyard Bob EVE University Ivy League 33	Posted - 2011.10.19 18:35:00 - [926] - Quote POCOs need to be nameable - just like POS towers. (They also need the ability to base taxes on standings, as has been suggested multiple times.)
Acorn FB Puppeteers of Doom Real Life Rejects 0	Posted - 2011.10.19 18:35:00 - [927] - Quote Here is the problem I see, at first the low sec peeps will have a shortage of POCOs, then they will spend the next few weeks struggling to get some up only to have some pirate blow it up and put a high tax rate in place just for the tears. Then the real nightmare begins. Some null sec alliance is going to figure out CCP has just offered them free isk to the extent not seen since the early moon goo days. The mechanic will look like this, find a few systems that offer good planets and then rush that solar system and its neighboring systems. The force will be well beyond the capabilities of local pirates and within two days all good planets and most others will have the official Goonswarm approved version of the POCO. THey will then set the taxes at such a point to extract most of the profit from PI, leaving just enough to keep their little PI slaves thinking hey have a chance. Base a few hundred BS, HACS, etc. in the center system and anyone who messes with them dies, tell your null sec friends and enemies that this is your area, but you can have the next set of systems and BOOM free money. Amusingly the null sec alliances may able to manipulae prices of some PI materials by messing with tax rates on specific POCOs, pull bait and switches, by lowering a rate on a set of planets then raising them when people invest in them etc. So basically we are all going to be working for our nullsec overlords. Guess the CSM is earning their paychecks. One last thing if you go through with this, make low sec THE place for PI give it the highest rates of PI, basically flipping it with null sec so may at least you can create the LO SEC PI WARS.
Belisarius Xenophon Buzzkill Joy Club 0	Posted - 2011.10.19 18:39:00 - [928] - Quote When are the covert PI facilies (requires planetary scanning to locate) and the customs smuggler class ships (to try to avoid paying tariffs to the supposedly controlling customs officers) going to be released?
Rek Seven Zandathorn Industries 11	Posted - 2011.10.19 18:41:00 - [929] - Quote Anselm Cenobite wrote: Pipip Mendicant wrote: Rather than nuke every lowsec/nullsec/wh customs office when this releases, you should leave them up but make them attackable. It forces corps that want one to first be strong enough to take one down, leaves current production temporarily in place, and lets you test your new mechanic on a large scale before the PI market gets out of control if your assumptions were wrong. Not to mention that it leaves ninja PI in place until some large entity takes an interest in your out-of-the-way system, which helps out the little guy. ^ This. + 1
Bodega Cat Expedition Arcadia Narwhals Ate My Duck 9	Posted - 2011.10.19 18:43:00 - [930] - Quote It almost seems like what they need to do is implement LESS flexibility in the tax controls in order to polarize the options into schemes that preserve expectations of all the people that appreciate PI. It should be impossible to shut everyone out, or impose such a ridiculously large tax ever. The idea would to be create a situation where you hope whoever owns the current station isn't a major jerk and has the highest setting of say 30% tax enabled, but even if he does you might be able to live with it. Now If you are an affiliation that wants to block a system from having a useable CO, then you should have to go back every other day and blow it up. The default state for blocked means no CO at all. THis will prevent large alliances from just plugging in a station and shutting it down or maxing the tax to 100% in order to block its use, they would now have to really care enough to invest the time to scout the system often to make sure someone doesn't keep one errected.



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