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Desert Ice78 Gryphon River Industries 82	Posted - 2011.10.30 07:25:00 - [1561] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: Max O'Deel wrote: So CCP do you intend to reimburse all the corps who live and have a POS in WH space when you realise too late that they should have been able to deploy defences to protect them. If you like to have a natural balance in EVE the structures in WH need to be governed by different parameters. POINT 1. there is usually only one corp in a WH they are not going to be able to tax anyone except themselves,(so where is their revenue). POINT 2. unlike anywhere else in EVE where gangs/fleets can very very quickly and easily be formed to defend a structure. The random access mechanics WH makes, defending them unrealistic. (yes I know if it is attacked you can spend, oh say an hour scanning a way out in order that your team of defenders can fly back in, WOW! all, whilst your POCO's is being attacked, then if you are very, very lucky, you might just save it. POINT 3. If these BPCGÇÖs are only available via DED/Concord stores have you thought about those who canGÇÖt access them thus leaving corp POSGÇÖs unable to obtain the items to function. At least give them a fighting chance and seed them at most stations in EVE even if they cost a bit more there. I doubt any one minds them being destructible however they MUST have at least minimum auto defences. in WH space the corp numbers just are not the same as in Low/Null and High sec. Please stop this application of two dimensional thought ( NULL SEC vs EMPIRE) you created WH space with parameters differing from those two so please THINK and realise the POCO's need to be different from both of them. Dont get me wrong the concept is great, it's just, well not really thought out fully. this is potentially a global, sorry universal POS wrecker that no fleet of dreadnaughts ever achieved. POCOs have a reinforce timer like POSs, however unlike POSs you don't need to fuel it. You get to choose the hour which it comes out of reinforce giving you advance notice and the opportunity to align it for when your corp is most active. We are expecting BPCs and the built gantrys to be sold on the open market by those players who have loyalty points. The more entrepreneurial players out there would already be thinking about ways to get hold of more loyalty points before hand to make the most of the initial demand. Yet again it appear that you have not listened to a single ***** thing that has been said here, nor do you intend to. History lesson; this is exactly how PI was rolled out in the first place. And that was so *** terrible (even by CCP standards) that you had to spend another iteration fixing it to the point where it was no longer terrible, just mearly rubbish. edit: Can't wait for your blog describing the "...wonderful, exciting, great...." changes your going to make. I swear you'll be able to hear me scream all the way in ***** Iceland. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Holy One SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353 173	Posted - 2011.10.30 08:37:00 - [1562] - Quote When Henry Ford was asked about consumer wishes.. He replied "If I had asked what consumers wanted, they would have said "a faster horse".
Silva Krell The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance 3	Posted - 2011.10.30 10:11:00 - [1563] - Quote I see that 'The hanger on space ports is gone' However I see that in the picture just above that quote in your dev blog the space port still have 10k storage. To confirm were you just talking about the interface? Will space ports still beable to store 10k m3? Also station manager is too important a role. I think there should be a different/new role for customs offices as some corps won't want to give out station manager roles for this. Finally the reinforement timer is too short. Should be 2 days at least for structure that will cost about 100 mil, or you should have the option to build a stronger CO with a longer timer. It will be far too easy to grief destroy these things atm.
Gingys Han EVE Research Nulla Clementia 0	Posted - 2011.10.30 14:45:00 - [1564] - Quote All offices should be conquerable from NPC and when they exit reinforcement in 0.1 - 0.4 space a COCORD fleet should be there to defent it and players within range with positive standing and no pirateing activity should be notified with a special mission to join forces. If they lose it then it can be replaced with a player owned office and from time to time CONCORD should try to gain control over it again informing players with that special mission. The reward should be LP points or standing towards the faction that sent out the troops. That would be more fair IMHO.
Kassasis Dakkstromri Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse 115	Posted - 2011.10.30 16:18:00 - [1565] - Quote Gingys Han wrote: All offices should be conquerable from NPC and when they exit reinforcement in 0.1 - 0.4 space a COCORD fleet should be there to defent it and players within range with positive standing and no pirateing activity should be notified with a special mission to join forces. If they lose it then it can be replaced with a player owned office and from time to time CONCORD should try to gain control over it again informing players with that special mission. The reward should be LP points or standing towards the faction that sent out the troops. That would be more fair IMHO. *facepalm
Cailais Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance 227	Posted - 2011.10.30 19:27:00 - [1566] - Quote Pamela Zolo wrote: This is just for when somebody tells me...and WHY you didn't say anything BEFORE?... Well... I am against the change in low sec... Try first in 0.0 and come back in 6 months... Im 100% for the change in low sec space - low sec is an area of inherent vulnerability and adding some genuine reason to fight for that space can only be a good thing: more player to player interaction - less NPC safety nets. C.
Cantabar Homocidal Pacifists LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM 0	Posted - 2011.10.30 20:10:00 - [1567] - Quote I think it would be amazing if you could tax a percentage of materials instead of taxing using isk. Ex. Tax rate = 10% Enriched Uranium exported = 100 units Tax = 10 units of EU Just a thought.
Smoking Blunts ZC Industries Dark Stripes 215	Posted - 2011.10.30 20:50:00 - [1568] - Quote Cailais wrote: Pamela Zolo wrote: This is just for when somebody tells me...and WHY you didn't say anything BEFORE?... Well... I am against the change in low sec... Try first in 0.0 and come back in 6 months... Im 100% for the change in low sec space - low sec is an area of inherent vulnerability and adding some genuine reason to fight for that space can only be a good thing: more player to player interaction - less NPC safety nets. C. well unles low sec pi gets a buff( the amounts are bad in 0.4-0.2) there will still be no economic reasons to fight for the right to pi/deploy planet things. i do hate to bang on, but revist pi and then when thats not a pile of ****, look at this addition CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
Jack Dant The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre 493	Posted - 2011.10.30 21:10:00 - [1569] - Quote Pamela Zolo wrote: This is just for when somebody tells me...and WHY you didn't say anything BEFORE?... Well... I am against the change in low sec... Try first in 0.0 and come back in 6 months... CCP's concept of these is a lot more suited to lowsec (and, incidentally, highsec) than to sov 0.0. They want you to get income from strangers using your planet. But in sov 0.0 there are no strangers, only alliance grunts, renters and hostiles. In empire you have many different corps and alliances living in close proximity, using the same resources, but not necessarily being aware of each other. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
gfldex 361	Posted - 2011.10.30 21:27:00 - [1570] - Quote So lets see a little further down the road. COs in lowsec went wrong because a) there is not enough tax generated per individual colony and b) smallish empire corps don't want to protect COs all over the map. How about allowing more then 1 Command Center per planet in lowsec? I'm a big fan of the vast networks one can build in openttd. It's a little saddening that you can't do that in EVE. With combining the power of 6 CCs on a single planet you could. On top of that the output per single planet could greatly increase and thus the export tax would raise. There is a trap for the greedy in there as well. If you put all your eggs into the same basket it's more likely somebody wants to stomp it. You depends more on other players via the market or your corp if you want to make POS fuel. What can go either way. This change might enrich PI more then the introduction of ECUs did. The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson
Scrapyard Bob EVE University Ivy League 744	Posted - 2011.10.30 23:19:00 - [1571] - Quote Allowing more then one POCO per planet: - No more need to interact with other players in order to claim the planet. This goes against the stated goal of encouraging conflict. - Spreads the revenue per POCO out even more, which makes the economic situation even worse. If you want the planet's revenue, then you have to place and defend your own POCO (just like any moon's resources). Or you have to cooperate with other players. Or smuggle stuff out using the command center launches (with the higher tariffs and limited launch capability).
Kassasis Dakkstromri Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse 115	Posted - 2011.10.31 00:10:00 - [1572] - Quote Smoking Blunts wrote: Cailais wrote: Pamela Zolo wrote: This is just for when somebody tells me...and WHY you didn't say anything BEFORE?... Well... I am against the change in low sec... Try first in 0.0 and come back in 6 months... Im 100% for the change in low sec space - low sec is an area of inherent vulnerability and adding some genuine reason to fight for that space can only be a good thing: more player to player interaction - less NPC safety nets. C. well unles low sec pi gets a buff( the amounts are bad in 0.4-0.2) there will still be no economic reasons to fight for the right to pi/deploy planet things. i do hate to bang on, but revist pi and then when thats not a pile of ****, look at this addition It's pure speculation, but with the increased bandwidth, it seems reasonable that CCP would tweak the P0 planetary consentration spawns? Again pure speculation - maybe Team Pi could weigh in on whether or not P0 spawns are being increased commensurate with the increased link bandwidth?
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.31 12:09:00 - [1573] - Quote Scrapyard Bob wrote: That's the choice you made when you moved your buildings away from the Command Center. So if you can't count on the POCO being available, you had better migrate your setup back towards the Command Center, or run a link back to the Command Center. (I also have a few colonies that I'm going to have to redo in order to use the CC for launches as a fallback - but it's nobody's fault but my own that my buildings are far away from the CC.) Choice? You ever do PI before? It's not a choice, it's a necessity. Unless you're running some scrawny-assed mini-network you'll be having to chase the resources around the planet. This will require you to move your network around. I don't know of anyone that puts anything resembling effort into their PI that hasn't had this issue. This is why the whole "remove all customs offices" will be brutally painful to most PI people, especially in places like wormholes where large scale PI happens and the logistics of moving things in and out can be a real pain. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Red Zaya SSD METAL INC. Yulai Federation 2	Posted - 2011.10.31 14:55:00 - [1574] - Quote Ingvar Angst wrote: You ever do PI before? +1. And this question could be asked to so many people posting on this thread, who obviously do NOT know anything about PI but probably just argue to get more greiffing targets or to push their huge alliances interests over the top (I even read some want to suppress storage in spaceports, only somebody who does not know what serious PI is could say such stupidity). 79 pages of discussion and we still have the same result : This project is not mature. Obviously CCP did NOT make ANY accurate analysis before bringing this on the forum. The only analysis made was maybe, surely, "let us kill PI for a maximum number of players this might make more PLEXes buyers". At the same time, a single look to the crazy rise of all PI components, specially POS fuel and Tier4 components, since POCOs are discuted here, is far enough to understand what will happen, because it allready happens and this is not just speculation : - POS fuel cost +60 % - building caps or stations + 35 % You are single player in NPC corp ? Forget about PI You are small corporation ( less than 50 players) ? Forget about PI you wont be able to protect your POCOs You are small alliance (less than 400 players) and want to build caps or station in a sov ? Just forget it or accept twice price. You are CCP and want more players ? LOL ! Might have a very bad surprise : maybe numerous players could be fed up to be just considered as the paying pigs.
Scrapyard Bob EVE University Ivy League 744	Posted - 2011.10.31 15:35:00 - [1575] - Quote Ingvar Angst wrote: Choice? You ever do PI before? It's not a choice, it's a necessity. Unless you're running some scrawny-assed mini-network you'll be having to chase the resources around the planet. This will require you to move your network around. I don't know of anyone that puts anything resembling effort into their PI that hasn't had this issue. This is why the whole "remove all customs offices" will be brutally painful to most PI people, especially in places like wormholes where large scale PI happens and the logistics of moving things in and out can be a real pain. Given that I run a few dozen PI planets, yes, I do in fact know what I'm talking about. If you're moving your buildings around to chase the hot-spot of the day because you're trying to min/max your yields, then that is the choice that you made. You're on a planet that simply cannot support the level of extraction that you're trying to do and you need to adjust your expectations downward. Not all planets and not all resources have high refill rates, which means that over time you will settle in at some lower number then what you were initially getting. Not all w-space systems are going to be self-supporting when it comes to POS fuels or whatever you're trying to extract. Take the 20% less yield per day and stop rebuilding your colony all the time - or spend the hour before placing your colonies to ensure that you've picked the right planet for the job. Or move to a slower extraction cycle such as every other day or every 3rd day. Or you need to petition CCP to increase the regeneration rate of the planets (which is something that I think needs to happen anyway, in order for planets to support enough PI harvest colonies to pay for the POCO).
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.31 16:05:00 - [1576] - Quote Scrapyard Bob wrote: Given that I run a few dozen PI planets, yes, I do in fact know what I'm talking about. If you're moving your buildings around to chase the hot-spot of the day because you're trying to min/max your yields, then that is the choice that you made. You're on a planet that simply cannot support the level of extraction that you're trying to do and you need to adjust your expectations downward. Not all planets and not all resources have high refill rates, which means that over time you will settle in at some lower number then what you were initially getting. Not all w-space systems are going to be self-supporting when it comes to POS fuels or whatever you're trying to extract. Take the 20% less yield per day and stop rebuilding your colony all the time - or spend the hour before placing your colonies to ensure that you've picked the right planet for the job. Or move to a slower extraction cycle such as every other day or every 3rd day. Or you need to petition CCP to increase the regeneration rate of the planets (which is something that I think needs to happen anyway, in order for planets to support enough PI harvest colonies to pay for the POCO). I tend to move once every four to six weeks. Hardly a "hot spot of the day" thing. Still, it only takes once and you're no longer connected to the command post. These worlmole planets hold up quite well for a good period of time, but not forever at any one location. So, based on my PI levels and how well I can maximize extraction --> P1 conversion per planets, there are periodic moves required. You sure you manage a few dozen planets? You should know something so basic. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Cerulean Ice EVE University Ivy League 15	Posted - 2011.10.31 16:26:00 - [1577] - Quote How will this affect PI? Let's go down the list. First I'll go over the different impacts based on security of the system, then I'll go over how it relates to PI as a whole. Highsec PI: It already has a very low yield for extractors, which in turn makes the return on your time very low. Increased export tax will further reduce these already low margins, to the point of being a pure waste of time, rather than just mostly a waste of time. Lowsec PI: Some of these planets have the same poor resources as highsec. Others are a little better. On the ones that are poor, nobody uses them. People go to highsec or find a better planet. On the ones that are better, a command center is not a feasible option for getting goods off the planet. Moving colonies or not, a command center doesn't have the space to support any meaningful deployment of goods. With the limits of expedited transfers, it effectively restricts the amount that can be launched to that timer. There are ways around this with lowsec planets, by routing the final product directly to the command center for instance, but this would require being in system far more often to launch, since you can't launch without being in space and in system. Nulsec PI: This shares the same problem that the better planets of lowsec have. Resources are easier to get, so the overall output is going to be even higher. Command center launches and expedited transfers will simply not keep up. Only the launchpad has the space to store products between launches, unless you're launching several times a day, and the only way to get things from a launchpad into space is through the customs office. This will leave people with two options. First, they can launch from the command center several times a day. Second, they can put up a defenseless structure (ohboy, -more- reinforcement timers, just what people want). Wormhole PI: Like nulsec, but worse. People living in WH space already have the logistical nightmare of being isolated. This will make it harder to get and manufacture a player owned customs office. Resources are so common on WH planets that even launchpads have trouble keeping up without multiple launches a day, or multiple launchpads. With the only option of using a command center, though, it becomes literally impossible. A single command center is all the planet will ever have, and it simply cannot keep up with the production capabilities of a WH planet. PI as a whole: PI was implemented as something everyone could do. It allowed anyone, with just a little investment of SP, to put down a command center and poke away at it. Everyone can do PI right now. If this new POCO goes through, it will severely restrict who can do PI. Only those with the logistical backing of a large alliance will be able to place and defend POCOs, effectively removing all solo- and small-scale-PI from nulsec and WH space. Structures do not drive conflict. People do. Removing people from nul and WH is a great way to kill any conflict in EVE. The rest of EVE: Making PI restrictive, in any way shape or form, will only serve to further increase the costs of running a POS, regardless of where you run it. In highsec, this means less invention. In WH, fewer corps able to maintain a presence, thus forcing them out of WH space. In nulsec, fewer active towers, less things being done with them, fewer supplies of moon goo (further increased T2 prices), fewer caps being made (decreased prices of basic minerals, such as tritanium), and all in all a massive blow to the EVE economy. Structures don't drive the economy. Structures don't drive conflict. People, who find the game entertaining, who want to spend time shooting each other, who want to make lots of isk selling their mining yield, who want to attack the Uni-Blob(tm)... People are the drivers of EVE. Don't shut out the people, CCP. Listen to everyone, like you said you would. Don't blindly push forward an idea that isn't going to work. We, the players of EVE, are here, watching, and willing to help. Let us help make EVE better, for everyone. ~Ceru PS; If you really want to get greedy, there's a great way to keep people playing the game, and paying for it. Make EVE better. Listen to the people who pay you. The happier we are, the more you make.
Potato IQ Doomheim 40	Posted - 2011.10.31 16:52:00 - [1578] - Quote gfldex wrote: b) smallish empire corps don't want to protect COs all over the map Then they donGÇÖt have the right to the better yields. IGÇÖve never been a LS resident, but wouldnGÇÖt this promote organized corps/alliances and enable that which is supposed to be difficult to come by, namely PvP. And all over the map is exaggerated. It may lead to pockets of GÇÿcontrolledGÇÖ systems, which again, should be a positive move for corp/alliance turf wars Ingvar Angst wrote: This is why the whole "remove all customs offices" will be brutally painful to most PI people, especially in places like wormholes where large scale PI happens and the logistics of moving things in and out can be a real pain. If POCOGÇÖs encourage gangs to come and destroy them, then I have to disagree. Mass restrictions make BS use tough, hence an ideal use for the new T3 BCGÇÖs (coincidence) with support. Losing PI goods for fleet battles is an easy price to pay
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.31 18:32:00 - [1579] - Quote Ingvar Angst wrote: This is why the whole "remove all customs offices" will be brutally painful to most PI people, especially in places like wormholes where large scale PI happens and the logistics of moving things in and out can be a real pain. If POCOGÇÖs encourage gangs to come and destroy them, then I have to disagree. Mass restrictions make BS use tough, hence an ideal use for the new T3 BCGÇÖs (coincidence) with support. Losing PI goods for fleet battles is an easy price to pay [/quote] But... it won't. It's not worth it. You enter a hole, put the POCOs into reinforced... then leave, because in 16 to 24 hrs max the hole is closing behind you and the rf timer is minimum 24hrs. The residents simply shake their heads, roll their holes when you go and rep things back up. You waste your ammo and time and the residents time, nothing else. If you're actually invading the hole the POCOs will be the last thing you worry about. They're not a threat and the residents won't be worrying about running PI goods with an invading force in the hole. Once you've evicted the residents... then what? Ooh! I know... let's go waste more ammo and time on the POCOs. Hurrah. POCOs are a wasted concept ultimately in wormholes. The time it would take zero tax PI to pay for the costs don't make them worth it, but they'll be necessary evils in order to keep PI functioning. They're an even worse concept in Low sec, actually reducing conflict because high sec people, especially those in NPC corps, will have nothing to fight for once some dungpile plants a POCO on a planet they've been using. Why destroy it if there's nothing left anyhow? Again, the cost to erect these things won't be worthwhile for any small indy corps to have to bear. However... if they leave customs offices in place and have them go inactive when a POCO is active at that moon and have them go active again if the POCO is removed or destroyed, then high sec people have something they can fight for. They'll have the option to destroy the POCO and regain full access to their PI. Some will, some will hire mercs... but they'll be fought over/for. There will be a reason to. Leave the customs offices. Have them go inactive when a POCO is present. Have them be online when one isn't. So many issues are prevented and the system becomes much more dynamic like it sounds the original intent was. Everyone wins. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Cailais Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance 227	Posted - 2011.10.31 19:45:00 - [1580] - Quote Ingvar Angst wrote: They're an even worse concept in Low sec, actually reducing conflict because high sec people, especially those in NPC corps, will have nothing to fight for once some dungpile plants a POCO on a planet they've been using. Why destroy it if there's nothing left anyhow? Again, the cost to erect these things won't be worthwhile for any small indy corps to have to bear. However... if they leave customs offices in place and have them go inactive when a POCO is active at that moon and have them go active again if the POCO is removed or destroyed, then high sec people have something they can fight for. They'll have the option to destroy the POCO and regain full access to their PI. Some will, some will hire mercs... but they'll be fought over/for. There will be a reason to. Leave the customs offices. Have them go inactive when a POCO is present. Have them be online when one isn't. So many issues are prevented and the system becomes much more dynamic like it sounds the original intent was. Everyone wins. In low sec space i think you will see corps fight over the ability to place POCOs in order to tax the PI inhabitants - i believe it will be relatively uncommon for PI manufacturers to set up their own POCOs, although some will and some may even band together to protect those assets. W space is slightly different. It rather depends on if its a worthwhile effort to place a POCO in order to exact a tax on the inhabitants, especially if you cannot easily protect that asset. Theres no doubt that keeping a POCO in place for self use in W space will be harder - but i think we can expect PI materials to rise in price as a result of POCOs being knocked out in low and null. This means that a w space PI process has the greatest security (over null and low sec) and the best profit margin. Over the long term w space PI should be plentiful and pretty reliable - albeit more awkward to establish. C.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.31 19:57:00 - [1581] - Quote Cailais wrote: In low sec space i think you will see corps fight over the ability to place POCOs in order to tax the PI inhabitants - i believe it will be relatively uncommon for PI manufacturers to set up their own POCOs, although some will and some may even band together to protect those assets. W space is slightly different. It rather depends on if its a worthwhile effort to place a POCO in order to exact a tax on the inhabitants, especially if you cannot easily protect that asset. Theres no doubt that keeping a POCO in place for self use in W space will be harder - but i think we can expect PI materials to rise in price as a result of POCOs being knocked out in low and null. This means that a w space PI process has the greatest security (over null and low sec) and the best profit margin. Over the long term w space PI should be plentiful and pretty reliable - albeit more awkward to establish. C. Tax the PI inhabitants... sure... but how much? You'll either see exhorborant tax rates in low sec simply because they can or you'll see corps locking out non-corp members completely to keep the resources for themselves, especially with the PI prices spiking as you've mentioned. But... if you keep the customs offices there, the high sec PI people can fight back. W-space... no, you're not going to put one up to tax your own people, that's just silly especially when they're likely providing some of the pos fuel you need. Anyone getting carried away like that will cause rifts in the corp with people that once had control of their own PI and now have to deal with corp leadership controlling it to a degree. You're certainly not going to put a POCO up in someone elses hole... that's simply target practice and wasted isk. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Smoking Blunts ZC Industries Dark Stripes 215	Posted - 2011.10.31 20:08:00 - [1582] - Quote Cailais wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: They're an even worse concept in Low sec, actually reducing conflict because high sec people, especially those in NPC corps, will have nothing to fight for once some dungpile plants a POCO on a planet they've been using. Why destroy it if there's nothing left anyhow? Again, the cost to erect these things won't be worthwhile for any small indy corps to have to bear. However... if they leave customs offices in place and have them go inactive when a POCO is active at that moon and have them go active again if the POCO is removed or destroyed, then high sec people have something they can fight for. They'll have the option to destroy the POCO and regain full access to their PI. Some will, some will hire mercs... but they'll be fought over/for. There will be a reason to. Leave the customs offices. Have them go inactive when a POCO is present. Have them be online when one isn't. So many issues are prevented and the system becomes much more dynamic like it sounds the original intent was. Everyone wins. In low sec space i think you will see corps fight over the ability to place POCOs in order to tax the PI inhabitants - i believe it will be relatively uncommon for PI manufacturers to set up their own POCOs, although some will and some may even band together to protect those assets. W space is slightly different. It rather depends on if its a worthwhile effort to place a POCO in order to exact a tax on the inhabitants, especially if you cannot easily protect that asset. Theres no doubt that keeping a POCO in place for self use in W space will be harder - but i think we can expect PI materials to rise in price as a result of POCOs being knocked out in low and null. This means that a w space PI process has the greatest security (over null and low sec) and the best profit margin. Over the long term w space PI should be plentiful and pretty reliable - albeit more awkward to establish. C. the problem with low sec pi is. there is so little differnce from high sec(0.4-0.2) that its not worth the isk/risk/headache setting one up. there are a few planets that are great for a short time, but useless after 1 person has used them for any length of time. you wont get to see the tax cover costs there. there just isnt enough reasons to set one up in low sec in my view. pos's are just as dull to shoot, but at least there is genrally something with a decent isk value on that moon that you will see a return on inside 30days. with a planet you gotta wait how many months 6/12/18? CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
Scrapyard Bob EVE University Ivy League 744	Posted - 2011.10.31 20:18:00 - [1583] - Quote Ingvar Angst wrote: W-space... no, you're not going to put one up to tax your own people, that's just silly especially when they're likely providing some of the pos fuel you need. Anyone getting carried away like that will cause rifts in the corp with people that once had control of their own PI and now have to deal with corp leadership controlling it to a degree. You're certainly not going to put a POCO up in someone elses hole... that's simply target practice and wasted isk. Most w-space corps that I've talked to are going to put them up - they just wish that they had defenses and they're not looking forward to the logistics of getting them setup initially. After that, they'll probably treat them as a corporate asset like the POS towers, maybe with a low tariff setting to generate a bit of additional rainy day money for their corp. At least now, the ISK from the tariff fees will be going into corp coffers instead of into an NPC's wallet.
Cailais Rekall Incorporated Sinewave Alliance 227	Posted - 2011.10.31 20:34:00 - [1584] - Quote Ingvar Angst wrote: Tax the PI inhabitants... sure... but how much? You'll either see exhorborant tax rates in low sec simply because they can or you'll see corps locking out non-corp members completely to keep the resources for themselves, especially with the PI prices spiking as you've mentioned. But... if you keep the customs offices there, the high sec PI people can fight back. W-space... no, you're not going to put one up to tax your own people, that's just silly especially when they're likely providing some of the pos fuel you need. Anyone getting carried away like that will cause rifts in the corp with people that once had control of their own PI and now have to deal with corp leadership controlling it to a degree. You're certainly not going to put a POCO up in someone elses hole... that's simply target practice and wasted isk. In terms of the question of 'how much to tax' we might well see market forces come into play. If the tax rate is too high PI players may well migrate to planets with lower tax demands. Those corps that enforce lockouts will, rather ironically, set themselves up as prime targets for attack - their planets being rather juicy and productive (if self run) or barren of PI structures if left fallow. POCOs in w space are most likely to be managed by the same players running the PI - but some will see the advantage of pre setting POCOs across w space on the basis that others wont want the hassle (especially if the tax rate is low). A risky investment for sure but its entirely possible. Is it worth blowing up a low tax POCO and then go through the trouble of bringing in your own POCO if someone else has done that for you? C.
Red Zaya SSD METAL INC. Yulai Federation 2	Posted - 2011.10.31 22:16:00 - [1585] - Quote Scrapyard Bob wrote: Given that I run a few dozen PI planets, yes, I do in fact know what I'm talking about ....... Take the 20% less yield per day and stop rebuilding your colony all the time - or spend the hour before placing your colonies to ensure that you've picked the right planet for the job. No you dont know what you are talking about. Say "I and my numerous alts manage few dozen PI planets" and you have a chance to be less ridiculous as far as ONE character cant have more than 6 planets, ok ? This is very basic knowledge, "Mister Expert". And someone who says "take 20 % less yeld" makes me laugh, this isn't serious PI, just "oh i dont want to do that job seriously it's too tiring". Spend hours before placing colonies ? Well now i understand why you are totally unable to make serious PI. If you want to give lessons to others, try to know REALLY what you are talking about. You're ready for EveUniversity
Jack Dant The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre 493	Posted - 2011.10.31 22:42:00 - [1586] - Quote The structures are already on Sisi, and from what I've seen the stats are unchanged from the devblog. They are not seeded, so you'd need LP on Sisi to build one and test the mechanics. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
rootimus maximus School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 48	Posted - 2011.10.31 23:18:00 - [1587] - Quote Ingvar Angst wrote: Tax the PI inhabitants... sure... but how much? You'll either see exhorborant tax rates in low sec simply because they can or you'll see corps locking out non-corp members completely to keep the resources for themselves, especially with the PI prices spiking as you've mentioned. How can you be so certain that there won't be reasonable tax rates? Quote: But... if you keep the customs offices there, the high sec PI people can fight back. Fighting back would be what the combat ships are for.
Kassasis Dakkstromri Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse 115	Posted - 2011.10.31 23:53:00 - [1588] - Quote Ingvar Angst wrote: Scrapyard Bob wrote: Given that I run a few dozen PI planets, yes, I do in fact know what I'm talking about. If you're moving your buildings around to chase the hot-spot of the day because you're trying to min/max your yields, then that is the choice that you made. You're on a planet that simply cannot support the level of extraction that you're trying to do and you need to adjust your expectations downward. Not all planets and not all resources have high refill rates, which means that over time you will settle in at some lower number then what you were initially getting. Not all w-space systems are going to be self-supporting when it comes to POS fuels or whatever you're trying to extract. Take the 20% less yield per day and stop rebuilding your colony all the time - or spend the hour before placing your colonies to ensure that you've picked the right planet for the job. Or move to a slower extraction cycle such as every other day or every 3rd day. Or you need to petition CCP to increase the regeneration rate of the planets (which is something that I think needs to happen anyway, in order for planets to support enough PI harvest colonies to pay for the POCO). I tend to move once every four to six weeks. Hardly a "hot spot of the day" thing. Still, it only takes once and you're no longer connected to the command post. These worlmole planets hold up quite well for a good period of time, but not forever at any one location. So, based on my PI levels and how well I can maximize extraction --> P1 conversion per planets, there are periodic moves required. You sure you manage a few dozen planets? You should know something so basic. CCP will not code for PI 'Power Users'... so arguing the finite details of power using the current PI feature will not impress anything upon CCP developers that will help iterate a better PCO feature. CCP Omen expressed exactly the current problem with the proposed PCO feature as it is currently iterated when he said: Quote: Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update. THIS and only THIS is what we should be challenging in this thread, and constructively arguing against this over arching assumption to help iterate a better feature - anything less is a complete waste of all of your (everyones) intelectual talents imo. I really hope this exceptionally constructive thread doesn't devolve into epeen drivel...
Kassasis Dakkstromri Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse 115	Posted - 2011.10.31 23:58:00 - [1589] - Quote Jack Dant wrote: The structures are already on Sisi, and from what I've seen the stats are unchanged from the devblog. They are not seeded, so you'd need LP on Sisi to build one and test the mechanics. Any idea on the exact LP / ISK cost for the BPC from FW LP Store??
Jack Dant The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre 493	Posted - 2011.11.01 00:15:00 - [1590] - Quote Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: Jack Dant wrote: The structures are already on Sisi, and from what I've seen the stats are unchanged from the devblog. They are not seeded, so you'd need LP on Sisi to build one and test the mechanics. Any idea on the exact LP / ISK cost for the BPC from FW LP Store?? 3000 LP and I think 10 mil isk (not sure about the isk, going from memory). But I notice there's CONCORD COs all over lowsec, not sure if they are destroyable. Just injected the skills for a dread on sisi, will let you know tomorrow What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

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