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Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn Department 10 16	Posted - 2013.05.10 08:49:00 - [121] - Quote I do like the certificates although I'm not entirely sure why. I tend to display my elite certificates probably in a bragging kind of way but I can fully understand why most pilots, especially PvP-orientated pilots, would not wish to do this. I think the API system is probably used far more for corporations to organise the capabilities of their pilots to fly set ship fittings etc . But as I'm a bit of luddite I don't really touch the API side of things. It goes over my head so in that sense the certificates are more user friendly. The following idea which I have received some 'likes' for in the recent past might be of interest to you: Combine availability of lines available to buy on the NEX store with elite skill certificates that your pilot has attained. Once you have an Elite certificate for eg mining you would be able to buy a complete mining uniform and/or a mining medal from the NEX store. Uniforms & medals could be available for: Mining Refining Exploration Squad/Wing/Fleet Command Logistics Trader Pirate Drug Dealer Moon Miner Corp/Alliance CEO/Director Manufacturer/Industrialist etc. People like to brag by wearing eye-pieces etc so this would make this method more diverse. Of course if there was a choice of you setting the man-hours to do the above OR to fix Corporation/Alliance Roles and Permissions then I would much rather you fixed the Roles & Permissions first.
Buzz Dura Epsilon Lyr Nulli Secunda 0	Posted - 2013.05.10 09:31:00 - [122] - Quote Hi, A lot of thing written here, not the time to read all of them.. If you want to put certificate in the center of EvE, you got a very simple way to do it. Change the requirements of ship from a skill tree to certificate tree. That would make piloting a ship more "i can use it well" than "i can turn the key to switch it on" Just look at what was done to carrier in odyssey : you need jump calibration to be able to fly it. That is totally "certificate way of thinking" skill requirements. What do you think of that ?
KiithSoban Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS 17	Posted - 2013.05.13 21:47:00 - [123] - Quote Hiding certificates, and having that be the default option, sounds like the best idea. It's way more exciting when you don't know what you are going to encounter, you don't know what kind of skills are going to be applied, how you enemy will use the ship he/she is flying, or how the encounter will turn out.
Olaf4862 KnownUnknown 20	Posted - 2013.05.14 02:46:00 - [124] - Quote CCP Ytterbium wrote: Hello folks, We have long term plans to improve Certificates as a whole and we would appreciate your input regarding their public visibility. At the moment it is possible to set individual certificates as public by going into your character sheet, under the Certificates > Permissions Tab. Initial research has shown a low usage of characters set Certificates as public, we thus are considering the following options: Remove the ability to set Certificates as public Offer the ability to drag and drop individual Certificates, or a whole Certificate profile from a character into any kind of text input field (conversation channels or EVE mails for instance GÇô this already is possible for individual Certificates from the planner) Offer means to compare Certificates with a particular individual that give you permission with your own For bragging rights, display unlocked Certificates publicly on all character show info, but donGÇÖt mention to which fields they apply GÇô for instance, running a show info on character A would list this pilot has 53 Certificates to Elite, 24 to Standard, but do not allow me to know their names or related skills. Would you feel comfortable with any of these options? Which ones do you like? Options outside that list may be considered as well, if expressed in a constructive manner. As another topic for you guys to voice your feedback to, what information would you feel worried about if it was displayed as public by default and why? In all cases, please note all of this remains high-level conceptual work that is in no way set in stone or even planned for the immediate future, which is why we are asking for your input in the first place. Many thanks for your time. Certificates should be private unless you reveile them. Many players prefer to keep there skill trees private for any number of good reasons. This info if public can be a tacticaly usefull info. Leaving it as is follows the change that was done to npc corp standings awhile back. I think the current display options are good, but I do agree that the cert trees need an overhaul and cleaned up to fix some of the gaps.
Quintessen The Scope Gallente Federation 66	Posted - 2013.05.14 03:53:00 - [125] - Quote I'm currently training to new players this month and I can tell you that the certificates while needing a lot of work, are potentially a very useful tool. Part of the problem is that they no longer take into account the differing roles of ships. They also don't cover T2 or T3 ships or the industry around them which is why I think many more advanced players they aren't very useful. At some point they just aren't all that useful. If you want to pursue deeper into the T2 frigates, the certificate system can't help direct you. There are a lot of people here who are talking about dropping certificates except for the ability for corporations to create them. And while corporate created certificates could be useful, you have to be careful as the UI needs to be easy to use. But also not everyone is in a player corporation and not everyone is in a good player-run corporation that can actually be helpful. And before people say change "just change corporations," players completely new to the game probably don't know about them. In most MMOs you can learn reasonably well independently. Certificates can be a very useful tool for people to learn the game from within the game. Fundamentally the information that certificates give players needs to be succinct, relevant, and easy to access. Right now certificates fail a little on the succinct and ease of access fronts and massively on the relevant front. The names of the certificates and the organization of the certificates needs some work. Partly the problem with relevancy is that roles and ships are kind of nebulous. They're not really well explained and aren't really talked about in detail inside the game. Creating a useful vocabulary for ship roles would be helpful. It would at least create a starting point for learning. Secondarily, the big problem with certificates is a problem with ships. There are over a hundred ships in the game, but no real good way of browsing them and evaluating your skill at flying them. The certificates for a ship are mentioned on the ship itself, but that's not a good way to browse you general competency. There really needs to be a good ship viewer. Each ship could then easily show your your general competency either through levels of competency or individual certificates that show up around the ship in the ship browser. Then as players gain certificates they will light up around ships that use them giving them a natural progression from one ship to the next. This kind of thing would make it blindingly obvious, e.g., that the Kestral leads to the Caracal leads to the Raven. There is no where in game where those connections are clearly visible without looking at the individual ships. While I understand that major changes are hard to accomplish in two week sprints over a period of six months, it's absolutely critical, I believe, to give something like this to the players. The certificate viewer as it stands for just viewing certificates isn't actually all that bad. It just needs entry points that make sense -- e.g. from a ship browser. So please, please take your time and do a re-evaluation not just on the certificates, but also on the items related to it.
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 38	Posted - 2013.05.14 20:05:00 - [126] - Quote I have just watched the Progressing with Ship Identification System presentation from Fanfest. That context has helped me understand your question here. I watched the presentation and there were many beautiful graphics, but it has not convinced me that the certificates will justify the effort. Still I want to give you feedback so that you can move forward in ways that are more useful than others. This feedback will be long so I will split it up. First I will try to explain the fundamental errors that could be made in designing this system. Second I will present some options for a different system which will actually meet your goals. Third, I will do a review on some of the extra things I saw in the presentation. Errors NIH (Not invented here) Syndrome is the first enemy in this processes. It is great that other people have spent huge amounts of time figuring out this game. EVEMon solves many of your problems. Don't dismiss it because it was not created by CCP. That dismissive attitude also comes from the designer's error, where you assume that because you designed it you understand it. Listen to CCP Presents particularly the story CEO Hilmar gives of his introduction to EVE. He created a game and did not understand it. This error leads CCP to write descriptions for ships that don't make any sense. It might also lead to the development of Certificates which have meaningless skills. Solutions Relax. Realize that the players will have their own ideas about the skills needed to fly specific ships, and they are probably better than yours. That does not mean that this project is over. What you can do is provide aids to the players to express their knowledge. The graphical ideas in the Fanfest Presentation were good. The problem was that you are imagining that CCP will come up with the useful skill lists for those certificates. Let the players, specifically corporations, do that. You may think that Shield Compensation V skills make you elite, but most players think that they just show how much time you wasted. You can use the current graphical models that you have already prototyped and let the corporations fill in the skills needed for each of the ships. The goals in the presentation were: show progression of players, help players choose ships, help make training goals, and reduce certificate complexity. Progression of players is social and based on activities, not based on achievements imagined by CCP. Corporations and friends are the most likely method of choosing a ship. Training goals should be guided by corporations and friends not some imagined setup by CCP. The rework on the certificate interface will improve understanding them significantly. Now in the context of a corporation created certificates it makes perfect sense to share that information within the corp and perhaps in a recruitment process. Bragging about how you matched CCP's certificates is only humorous. Ship Identification System Presentation i) Eve is a sandbox, not a progression game. You progress by having fun, and doing things that matter socially. Therefore real progression is measured in the corp not by CCP. ii) EVEMon is a success for CCP not a failure. Don't compete add value. iii) The broad certificates will lead to bad skill choices. Navigation includes MWD and Afterburners, but for some ships shouldn't use one or the other. In your system you will suggest they learn both. This is just one small example of problems in the certificate system. iv) Long term planning is done with EVEMon and it is ok if CCP does not control that tool. v) The skill group changes will help new players find skills they want. Many people in this thread seem to use certificates because the skill groups are so weird. vi) The ship icons for industrials should have a blunt nose. I think that will help convey, non-combat better then the aft symbols. vii) The new certificate interface looks understandable. I think a dedicated corporation could setup their own list of certificates and skills. It can be the mark of an established corporation. Others can use a preset list.
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition. 3642	Posted - 2013.05.14 20:31:00 - [127] - Quote The ability to customize certificates would be nice. So an FC from a corp could create one, link it and players could click it, link it, save it, whatever. They could then see what skills they are missing and need to train. Also once they have it, perhaps the ability to notify the person with the right roles be able to see what members qualify and who doesn't. Flight of a Thousand Rifters III ---- Vengeance ---- Player Event coming May 5th 2013
Gerrick Palivorn Caldari Provisions Caldari State 370	Posted - 2013.05.14 22:21:00 - [128] - Quote Marlona Sky wrote: The ability to customize certificates would be nice. So an FC from a corp could create one, link it and players could click it, link it, save it, whatever. They could then see what skills they are missing and need to train. Also once they have it, perhaps the ability to notify the person with the right roles be able to see what members qualify and who doesn't. My thoughts exactly, the ability for corps/FC's to create specific Certificates for characters would be amazing. Also having Certs corp visible only or Directer/CEO visible only would go a long way in people using the certs. So to put it simply, have a Corp Certificate program to go along with that Corp Management revamp we've been promised. The only certs I ever tell people to look at is the core competency standard as a goal for base level PVP, the rest are 'meh' and I just claim them to see thru my random skilling what I've managed to qualify for. MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.-á -Garresh-
Quintessen The Scope Gallente Federation 66	Posted - 2013.05.15 04:18:00 - [129] - Quote For the people asking for player created certificates, you do not know what you are asking for. And frankly many of you probably wouldn't use it much past its introduction. That is a huge feature that people are asking CCP to implement and frankly that part is of little use. How many fleet commanders are actually going to make decisions on whether or not they put someone in a role based on their own custom made certificates? Player analysis will likely happen at the time of induction to the corporation and will likely happen through the API since they are asking for that anyways for a multitude of reasons. The purpose, as I see it, for certificates it to create a common vocabulary. That vocabulary may not be as precise as an individual would like but its primary use comes in its commonality. A common set of certificates becomes useful outside of the client. The primary purpose for certificates is a shorthand for stating desired or acquired competency in a selection of skills. If everyone comes up with their own versions of the certificates those certificates only matter to the issuing authority and not to the pilots attaining them. There are people who will go for the elite certificates for the sake of doing so. That's fine. That's how they want to play Eve and it isn't any more valid or invalid than any other non-Eula-breaking way to play. But asking CCP to implement a huge feature when their time could be put to better use elsewhere is a bad idea. The biggest problem with the current certificate system is its lack of visibility and seeing the demos they produced at Fanfest it looks promising. They still need to iterate a few more time, but it's a major step in the right direction. As for a presentation in game, I think that certificates and decorations should be visible, optionally, on the character's avatar just like they would be on most world military personnel. Certificate visibility should be set based on standings, including 'never show'. If CCP finds they have lots of time lying around then they can go and make a player certificate system, but I believe it will end up a lot like titles and roles where the system ends up requiring a very convoluted UI to master where a simpler system is really what would have helped the players most. We are not junior game designers. I am a usability engineer and one of the first things I learned was to listen to the users, understand their needs, but do not let them design the system. It almost always turns out bad. We need a common vocabulary so that established players can communicate might benefit newer players. We need a system that allows users to opt into showing off their progress. We need a system that allows users who need it to see both immediate progress and progress towards longer goals. We need a system that helps establish a common vocabulary for in-game systems. E.g. roles, hull sizes, weapon systems and module types. We need a system that helps to explain the various kinds of things you can do in Eve. More than just combat and industry, but also exploration, piracy and all the other myriad things you can do. We need UI that will connect the dots for players and show them how ships connect to roles and certificates; and how modules connect to roles and ships. Eve is too big not to get this kind of help. We need UI that helps show the progression for players. Once I decide I like using missiles on my first frigate how do I figure out what else I can fly that will feel the same. I don't and can't speak for everyone. But my friends who have tried the game and some who still play firmly agree with those ideas above. I want a game that I can bring people into that is challenging, but because it's difficult to master, and not just because it does a lousy job of communicating. A simple game can be difficult if the rules are hard to understand and unsatisfying once you do. A good game can be challenging and difficult to master even if the rules are easy to follow. I've been trying to bring people to this game now for years. I keep as many as I can, but many simply feel lost because so little is communicated well. Please help me keep them around.
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 41	Posted - 2013.05.15 20:42:00 - [130] - Quote Quintessence, I would like to reply to your comments. Instead of quoting, and making an long reply even longer, I am going to comment with few quotes. There are better uses of developer time then working on certificates and many people agree. Looking at the Fanfest presentation makes it clear that they are going to "fix" this problem. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to ask them to do something that will have some minimal uses. We have a common vocabulary already in skills. I have seen many good starter skill packages. I would love to see those package suggestions available to beginners. Those packages were developed by players not CCP. The changes to the skill panel at Fanfest look good to me. Now for your list: Quintessen wrote: We need a common vocabulary so that established players can communicate might benefit newer players. We have that in skills. Wasting time would be to convince younger players that they really need to spend a few weeks working on their shield compensation skills before they fly a drake. Quintessen wrote: We need a system that allows users to opt into showing off their progress. We need a system that allows users who need it to see both immediate progress and progress towards longer goals. This is a sandbox, that means we define progress not CCP. Watch the Fanfest presentation Coaching them up in EVE. DNSBlack discusses real progression as a group and an individual within a sandbox. Decide on your own goal. Pursue that goal. Enjoy the results of your own work. CCP is not a validating agent for progress. Quintessen wrote: We need a system that helps establish a common vocabulary for in-game systems. E.g. roles, hull sizes, weapon systems and module types. We need a system that helps to explain the various kinds of things you can do in Eve. More than just combat and industry, but also exploration, piracy and all the other myriad things you can do. We need UI that will connect the dots for players and show them how ships connect to roles and certificates; and how modules connect to roles and ships. Eve is too big not to get this kind of help. We need UI that helps show the progression for players. Once I decide I like using missiles on my first frigate how do I figure out what else I can fly that will feel the same. I actually like the graphics in the presentation. Giving you a list of other ships with missile bonuses would be fine. Neither of these are related to certificates, which is where the real problems exist. Certificates are a list of skills which should be trained together. If CCP makes those lists then they will feel compelled to promote their skills, even when the skill is not sufficiently useful. New players need communities to help them understand the game and figure out their own goals. EVE would be better if CCP fixed the corporation interface, and forgot certificates. The corporation interface is something that players would actually like fixed. Corporations can provide the community that actually helps and encourages new players. This is just one example of a better use for CCP's developer time. My summary is quick. This is not a progressing theme-park, but rather a sandbox with personal goals. CCP should work on something different. Since CCP is likely to go forward with this project, at least they could add corporation certificates which would actually help communities (even if only a small amount).

Warde Guildencrantz TunDraGon Drunk 'n' Disorderly 695	Posted - 2013.05.16 17:31:00 - [131] - Quote offer a one time free reward with the claiming of certificates and you will see usage rise dramatically. could even offer a standings boost or something by training certificates of racial skills.
Bad Messenger Nasranite Watch 486	Posted - 2013.05.16 17:54:00 - [132] - Quote current system is fine, now players can decide what they want to do with certificates.
Quintessen Orion's Belt Mining and Pharmaceuticals 67	Posted - 2013.05.16 18:59:00 - [133] - Quote Kadl wrote: Quintessence, I would like to reply to your comments. Instead of quoting, and making an long reply even longer, I am going to comment with few quotes. There are better uses of developer time then working on certificates and many people agree. Looking at the Fanfest presentation makes it clear that they are going to "fix" this problem. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to ask them to do something that will have some minimal uses. We have a common vocabulary already in skills. I have seen many good starter skill packages. I would love to see those package suggestions available to beginners. Those packages were developed by players not CCP. The changes to the skill panel at Fanfest look good to me. Now for your list: We have that in skills. Wasting time would be to convince younger players that they really need to spend a few weeks working on their shield compensation skills before they fly a drake. This is a sandbox, that means we define progress not CCP. Watch the Fanfest presentation Coaching them up in EVE. DNSBlack discusses real progression as a group and an individual within a sandbox. Decide on your own goal. Pursue that goal. Enjoy the results of your own work. CCP is not a validating agent for progress. I actually like the graphics in the presentation. Giving you a list of other ships with missile bonuses would be fine. Neither of these are related to certificates, which is where the real problems exist. Certificates are a list of skills which should be trained together. If CCP makes those lists then they will feel compelled to promote their skills, even when the skill is not sufficiently useful. New players need communities to help them understand the game and figure out their own goals. EVE would be better if CCP fixed the corporation interface, and forgot certificates. The corporation interface is something that players would actually like fixed. Corporations can provide the community that actually helps and encourages new players. This is just one example of a better use for CCP's developer time. My summary is quick. This is not a progressing theme-park, but rather a sandbox with personal goals. CCP should work on something different. Since CCP is likely to go forward with this project, at least they could add corporation certificates which would actually help communities (even if only a small amount). I've snipped my own points. They should be close enough to see in the discussion, but I wanted to also reply to your points. The problem is the vocabulary of skills in this game is highly technical and therefore difficult for someone to grasp. By grouping them into certificates and skill groups you help create a simpler vocabulary much as we categorize all sorts of things. To your point about CCP not setting goals, I agree. CCP doesn't in either sense. They do however give us a common playground in order to create our own goals. It may be a sandbox, but it's still a sandbox with walls and very specific tools in place. I may not choose to make a sandcastle with my sandcastle blocks, but it helps to know what the thing was designed to do in the first place. CCP gives us tool. We do with them what we will. Certificates doesn't take away from that. I can claim only certificates that create an anagram of "Suck it Trebek" but the tools are still there. I'm not going to dispute that the corporation interface needs fixing. I've fun a corporation myself for most of my time in Eve with one character or another. But my concern is that problems that affect current players are not the same as affect new players. Existing players don't need nearly as much explanation because they already have a good mental model. And as for community, not every corp is going to give good advice. Nor is everyone going to find a good corp right away. Several people jump back and forth looking for a good play experience. It's good that Eve University and RvB exist, but those should be one option of many. What I want to see is for someone new coming in so saw an Eve ad and who doesn't know anyone -- I want them to be able to get in and learn the game because they game will help teach you. I'm not looking for hand holding all the way, but this game doesn't have to be antagonistic towards new players. I remember when Eve just dropped you in the middle of space and trying to figure out how to even navigate. It's better now, but for the people who feel those were the good-ole-days, I want to tell them Eve can't grow and be awesome as a niche product. It's doesn't have to be mass consumer WoW-clone crap, but it can't beat people up who want to learn the game on their own. Not everyone wants to learn from the community. A lot of them want to learn things at their own pace using the tools in front of them. I think Eve should support those players too. I don't believe certificates create a theme park any more than certificates created a theme park of those people's lives who have them in real life. People are certified for all sorts of things. When done well they're an effective way of communicating. But no one says you need to get a specific certificate or any certificate for that matter. It's opt in. But they exist and I think for a great many people they make communicating just a little easier.
Meytal School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 193	Posted - 2013.05.16 19:38:00 - [134] - Quote Many corps require specific skills from prospective new members. Certificates are a great way to group skills, but they are rigidly defined by CCP now, so they're not overly useful beyond being recommendations for ships. Allow corporations to define their own certificates that can be used for recruitment. This means: 1) A Director or Recruiter or designee can create a certificate by specifying skills to be included. 2) Certificates can be listed in the corp Show Info, or recruitment advertisement, or other, or all of the above. 3) Flexible options to show certificate(s) that are required or recommended: - Require all of the following certificate(s): - Require (x) of the following certificate(s): - Following certificate(s) are recommended but not required: 4) Players can save certifictes pertaining to corps they are interested in. It's really just a link to the certificate, so the character's saved link is always current as long as the certificate is not deleted. 5) Corps can specify that characters meet the certificate requirements before being allowed to apply, and may optionally grant a temporary override in special cases. 6) If certificate requirements are not strictly enforced for application, the application itself should show which, if any, of the certificates that the prospective applicant meets and does not meet. This could streamline a lot of recruitment chores for many corps. If these changes are not deemed suitable, then really certificates have little purpose besides a warm fuzzy and general recommendations to players for skills useful in flying the various ships. In this situation, leave them alone as they are now, since they're not hurting anything.
Mire Stoude Antelope with Night Vision Goggles 184	Posted - 2013.05.17 16:34:00 - [135] - Quote Removed the post as the idea has already been proposed and under major discussion already!
Tom Gerard Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 1046	Posted - 2013.05.17 17:08:00 - [136] - Quote Certificates need to be replaced with the ability to link your FULL SKILL SET. Right click on an icon on your skill tab and drop it into chat, this will let new players ask questions and give everyone an in-game easy version of eveboard. One of the oldest mission players in EVE designed a chart that explains stat priority in regards to mission running, compared Alpha, DPS, Ship Speed and Sig Radius and scores them. http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m24dbrfuWn1r86ax8o1_1280.jpg
X Gallentius Justified Chaos 1422	Posted - 2013.05.17 17:29:00 - [137] - Quote First thought is to get rid of them. Second thought is to use them as a filter to view your skills. "Armor Tanking Proficiency" Brings up all the relevant armor tanking Skills to the screen with your current levels. And you or your corp should be able to set a group of skills to a given filter. "JUSTK RR Domi Skills" - A list of skills important for running an RR Domi that members can use to filter their current skills. Then they'll know what they need to train to get good with that ship.
Troy LS Colonic Hyperbole 0	Posted - 2013.05.17 18:03:00 - [138] - Quote I'm not sure why anyone would make their certificates publicly visible. Your opponent could very easily get intel on you to your detriment. Corp level visibility makes much more sense, but its not useful in its current form. Customizable certificates (think skill plans) issued by corp to its members could be a useful way of tracking a members skill progression. Certs are useless in their current form. Devs shouldn't waste time fixing certs unless its to make them a truly useful tool.
Unkind Omen Russian Thunder Squad Darkness of Despair 14	Posted - 2013.05.18 00:51:00 - [139] - Quote Quintessen wrote: For the people asking for player created certificates, you do not know what you are asking for. And frankly many of you probably wouldn't use it much past its introduction. Step 1. Look at fittings window. http://clip2net.com/s/554Fuw Step 2. Create a "Skills" category. Let people add skill requirements to fittings by picking from a list/dragndropping/whatever. Step 3. Let people link not just the fitting but all their checklist markers via separate button. This can be done by extending specifications on "url=fitting" chat tag Which is looking like Quote: url=fitting:29990:2048;1:3841;2:29974;1:30163;1:1541;4:2281;1:2410;3:31790;3:30066;1:3955;2:30134;1:17559;1:12058;1:1565;1:30110;1:: Step 4. See me using those improved fittings a lot as our alliance standard fittings are changing quite often and the members' skills management is a disaster.
Quintessen Orion's Belt Mining and Pharmaceuticals 67	Posted - 2013.05.18 16:22:00 - [140] - Quote Unkind Omen wrote: Quintessen wrote: For the people asking for player created certificates, you do not know what you are asking for. And frankly many of you probably wouldn't use it much past its introduction. Step 1. Look at fittings window. http://clip2net.com/s/554Fuw Step 2. Create a "Skills" category. Let people add skill requirements to fittings by picking from a list/dragndropping/whatever. Step 3. Let people link not just the fitting but all their checklist markers via separate button. This can be done by extending specifications on "url=fitting" chat tag Which is looking like Quote: url=fitting:29990:2048;1:3841;2:29974;1:30163;1:1541;4:2281;1:2410;3:31790;3:30066;1:3955;2:30134;1:17559;1:12058;1:1565;1:30110;1:: Step 4. See me using those improved fittings a lot as our alliance standard fittings are changing quite often and the members' skills management is a disaster. I know what that gets for the corporation that is trying to get their people to get in line or to measure people for entry, but what does the player get out of it that would make them want to use this feature more than a few times? Honestly while corporations are the backbone of Eve, their management is in the hands of a very small percentage of people. Features should take corporate management into account, but should be weighed heavily against the larger player base. The problem is that that larger player base is rarely represented here because the forums represent those more invested in the game than your average player, but Eve still needs those players. Each feature introducing UI complexity needs to be evaluated to see if that additional UI complexity is warranted by the benefits of the feature and for corp certificates, for the non-corp running player, I just don't think it is.

Unkind Omen Russian Thunder Squad Darkness of Despair 14	Posted - 2013.05.18 19:52:00 - [141] - Quote We are not discussing the priority of the certificate system over other stuff here. The UI complexity would be an issue for any kind of system as the amount of information is huge. The system is already here and serves little to no purpose. And the smallest step required to make it feasible is to make certificates customizable. They will not get any usability while they are static. The game evolves too fast in comparison to a standard game production cycle. So the certificates would be permanently outdated bringing useless and even harmful information.
Quintessen Orion's Belt Mining and Pharmaceuticals 67	Posted - 2013.05.19 13:07:00 - [142] - Quote Unkind Omen wrote: We are not discussing the priority of the certificate system over other stuff here. The UI complexity would be an issue for any kind of system as the amount of information is huge. The system is already here and serves little to no purpose. And the smallest step required to make it feasible is to make certificates customizable. They will not get any usability while they are static. The game evolves too fast in comparison to a standard game production cycle. So the certificates would be permanently outdated bringing useless and even harmful information. Putting my usability engineer hat on I'm not sure I can agree with those sentiments. The certificate system can be made cleaner and it can almost be simplistic. Certainly there are plenty of models for even more complicated skill sets than what we see in Eve. As for customizable certificates being the only ones that are viable, there are a few problems with that. Quite a few new players corp jump at the beginning while they find their way. They also sometimes stick with the newbie corp until they find a corp they like. These methods of finding a corp are both viable. But both systems do not conform well to player-created certificates being the primary or only way certificates are created. For better or worse a centralized authority for certificates at least gives us consistency of language and something that even players outside of a competently run corporation can use. That means that CCP can provide a baseline minimum for certificates. While some will disagree with the logic of this skill or that skill to V, at least its something that everyone can partake in. Hopefully the player will have found a good enough corporation after awhile that they can get further advice and then people can about certificates in terms of which ones are useful and not so fine grained as talking about which skills are useful for which roles. And while I agree that parts of this game change rather rapidly, there are a lot of things that haven't. Sometimes I think we lose sight of that. The tracking mechanism for turrets hasn't really changed. Missiles still apply their damage the same way. There is still value in those things. That's not to say that CCP shouldn't take player feedback in terms of creating and maintaining the certificates, but I think there's a core there that just doesn't change that much. The added UI complexity from player-made certificates will mean that there will have to be a place for players to create new ones; share them with others; delete, rename and generally manage them; track ownership (roles) of who can manage them for corps; let players determine what certificates are kept or visible; modify existing ones (what happens to ones already out there); potentially manage versions; assign certificates to certain ships And that's just a sampling. Custom anything becomes a huge task. And what CCP is proposing is a fraction of what player-made certificates would take. I know from professional experience that any time you take something read-only and made it customizable we just multiplied the work ten times. I just don't think the cost for player made certificates is justified.
Ioci Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums 387	Posted - 2013.05.19 14:45:00 - [143] - Quote Another question you could ask is, when was the last time anyone looked at another pilots Certs? If you want them to have game epeen value, put 5 stars under our name, above our corp. Up to 5 and we need to get 5 elite to fill the stars. If you want people to strive for them, add value to them. Cool down actions would be a suggestion I might make. Example: I have Core Nav elite. I can slot core Nav and when I click on a star between my name and corp, I get a 25% boost to max velocity for 60 seconds and it has a 24 hrs cool down. Max of 5 slotted, the slot goes to CD, so you don't switch them out. R.I.P. Vile Rat
E'lyna Mis Dimaloun Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance 1	Posted - 2013.05.19 15:37:00 - [144] - Quote CCP Ytterbium wrote: Offer means to compare Certificates with a particular individual that give you permission with your own Will never get used. CCP Ytterbium wrote: For bragging rights, display unlocked Certificates publicly on all character show info, but donGÇÖt mention to which fields they apply GÇô for instance, running a show info on character A would list this pilot has 53 Certificates to Elite, 24 to Standard, but do not allow me to know their names or related skills. No. There's a reason why most people have certificates set to private - because you want your enemy to know as little about you as possible before he engages you.
Ashandra Phoenix Space Exploitation Inc Get Off My Lawn 0	Posted - 2013.05.19 21:39:00 - [145] - Quote Certs are only good for guiding new players in the right direction, initially. Once newbies get up to speed on what is important, it's not really very helpful. Even the ability to create your own for corps/alliances is redundant, as most serious corps/alliances require API for verification.
Quintessen Orion's Belt Mining and Pharmaceuticals 67	Posted - 2013.05.20 03:29:00 - [146] - Quote Ioci wrote: Another question you could ask is, when was the last time anyone looked at another pilots Certs? If you want them to have game epeen value, put 5 stars under our name, above our corp. Up to 5 and we need to get 5 elite to fill the stars. If you want people to strive for them, add value to them. Cool down actions would be a suggestion I might make. Example: I have Core Nav elite. I can slot core Nav and when I click on a star between my name and corp, I get a 25% boost to max velocity for 60 seconds and it has a 24 hrs cool down. Max of 5 slotted, the slot goes to CD, so you don't switch them out. Don't discount people's desire for e-peen. I'm not sure that CCP wants to add twitch like gameplay though I'm sure there are a lot of people who would be for it. Perhaps finishing certificates could open up access to specialty skills or other things based on NPC corporation's acknowledgement of your "elite skills". There is design space here, but CCP will have to keep careful of increasing player power level.
Barrogh Habalu Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 462	Posted - 2013.05.20 05:41:00 - [147] - Quote I honestly have no idea why certs are even exist. Baseline suggestions function gets basically eradicated the moment "show relevant skills" feature is implemented. Beyond that, core competency is the only one that is being mentioned and only to newcomers. I personally never cared about that either since the first thing I did when I launched EVE beyond opening tutorial is opening "skill" market bookmark and browsed through everything there was. I think that corp- and alliance-specific certificates could be of at least some use (think certificates like "Alphamael pilot" or something, including all skills you could be asked to have to participate in fleets and count as reimbursable). Even then, making those certs visible for someone who isn't the player himself or someone from corp/alliance with relevant roles is pointless.
Verity Sovereign Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 426	Posted - 2013.05.20 07:30:00 - [148] - Quote E'lyna Mis Dimaloun wrote: CCP Ytterbium wrote: Offer means to compare Certificates with a particular individual that give you permission with your own Will never get used. CCP Ytterbium wrote: For bragging rights, display unlocked Certificates publicly on all character show info, but donGÇÖt mention to which fields they apply GÇô for instance, running a show info on character A would list this pilot has 53 Certificates to Elite, 24 to Standard, but do not allow me to know their names or related skills. No. There's a reason why most people have certificates set to private - because you want your enemy to know as little about you as possible before he engages you.
Joseph North University of Caille Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.05.20 08:25:00 - [149] - Quote One of the biggest things wrong with certificates imo is the way in which they seem carelessly or inconsistently thrown together. There are many certificates at a basic level, for example, with skill training required to 5 in one or more skills. This, while corresponding certificates in other areas are far easier to get. Often this is true between exactly analagous certificates -- like racial soldier. Honestly, sometimes I look at the inconsistency across all the certificates and I wonder what the thought process was in their creation In order to make the certificates make more sense, why not make comparable certificates have more even sp requirements and actually represent 'basic', 'standard', 'improved', and 'elite' skill levels. In my opinion, something like a basic certificate in anything should take about a day or so. standard should take maybe 3-5 times as long. improved 3-5 times as long as that. elite 3-5 times as long again. Then, make certificates which actually use lesser certificates as prereqs (like core competency basic) start at the standard level so that this all stays consistent. I can practically guarantee that if certificates became customize-able people would create schemes like this anyways. As a new player I actually loved certificates and wanted to get them in an almost RP kind of way but I quickly realized they made little sense. It wouldn't be that hard to fix this. While doing this, rethink some of the the actual skill requirements so that they take into account various game changes that have occurred and make more sense from a recommended training point of view. One example is the 'core' certificates, which are mostly good, but have some very strange requirements at different levels (why targeting 4 for basic?) and seem to be missing some pretty core skills at the same time (shield operation?) THEN... once you have fixed all this and have made the certificates make more sense and have more consistency of sp requirements, give the certificates a small purpose. I love the idea of tying together certifications with Nex items or other custom features. The fact is, as much as people say things like 'I don't want to give away information' etc, the real problem is that certificates are just poorly designed. Fix the overall design and consistency and give them a real purpose (even if just vanity) and they will start to be used
Meytal School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 199	Posted - 2013.05.20 14:11:00 - [150] - Quote Joseph North wrote: The fact is, as much as people say things like 'I don't want to give away information' etc, the real problem is that certificates are just poorly designed. Fix the overall design and consistency and give them a real purpose (even if just vanity) and they will start to be used I'd go so far as to say they're well-designed for their purpose: recommendations to new-ish players of the skills they should train toward for flying various ships. The problem is the different viewpoints between CCP and the players :) Once you become familiar with how the game works, what each skill does, the certificates aren't needed for guidance anymore, and only those who want to complete them just to complete them will bother with them. The default certificates are adequate, but are limited. If we could define our own certs for corp recruiting, it could breathe new life into a system that has a lot of unfulfilled potential right now.



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