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Sticky:Asking for feedback on Certificate visibility

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Marcel Devereux Aideron Robotics 226	Posted - 2013.05.03 14:11:00 - [31] - Quote What value add does certificates add to the game? Right now the are pretty much useless and I think the question you should be asking yourself is what you are trying to accomplish with certificates. The certificate system provides almost no value add because they do not line up with the skills to fly ships for doctrines. Personally I would like to see the certificate system scrapped and replaced with a tool that allows mentors, CEO's, and FC's to help newer players out. When i want to determine the capability of a new pilot and how they fit into my fleet, I have to look at the various pre made fits and see what the pilot can fly. The certificates tell me very little. With the API I can pull all the the pilots skills and determine 1. Can the pilot fly the ship and 2. How appropriate it is for the pilot to be flying the ship. This about this. A pilot just joins a corp and is looking through the corps fittings. In the list of fittings he sees 1-5 pips (much like skills) next to each one letting him or her know how well they can fly that particular fit. The FC can tell them to pick a fit that you have at least X number of pips in. In addition in the fleet composition window, the FC can see the pips next to each ship so if someone shows up in a ship that they can't fly really well he can fix it (by either having them switch out or kicking them from the fleet). This is just an example but it illustrates that we need a system that allows for more streamlined interaction between players. The certificate system is a solo feature. We want something that helps use organize our corp and fleet members. Please put your development and design resources on that.
Ace Echo The Shadow Raiders Fleet Coordination Coalition 39	Posted - 2013.05.03 14:11:00 - [32] - Quote I understand that your team's goal is to tweak the visibility of Certificates to make it a more used and enjoyed feature... but it seems most people agree that the problem with certificates is with much larger issues that probably aren't the scope of this thread. I'm CEO of a corp that deals with a lot of newbies... any growing corp nearly has to with the current recruitment market, and I gotta say certificates are a very good feature in that regard. Experienced players quickly outgrow it, but it's a great help to be able to look at a ship you want and know what to train for with the certificates. Most certificates I've seen are decently constructed, emphasizing support skills as much as the prereq skills, discouraging the common "Newbs rush to a megathron, train just the prereqs, then wonder why the can't run lvl4's" scenario. The only bullet point I really like is the last one. The rest I wouldn't mind but I don't think they'd be used much and would not be an effective use of devtime. The problem with certificates is that past the newbie stage they really don't mean much at all.
Nagarythe Tinurandir Tormented of Destiny Cha Ching PLC 123	Posted - 2013.05.03 14:23:00 - [33] - Quote currently certificates have no value except telling your enemy how much sp your character may have based on wether you made them public or not. a cool thing would be (as already mentioned by others in this thread), if certificates would be given to you by other players, e.g. the CEO of your Corp. they could still be skill based: for example to satisfy the requirements for fleet doctrine certificate ABC the player needs skills abc+xyz once the player meets those requirements it can be awarded to the player by the ceo of his corp or whatever. a nice window in corp managment could for example show which dudes still haven't caught up with the doctrines your corp has. they could show that you mastered a certain style of gameplay e.g. certificate in fast tackling. awarded to players who have proven a dozen times, that they know how to use an interceptor or whatever. it could additionaly show how much game time you've spend e.g. tackling and or in how many kills your tackling resulted. that may be a good addition for the corp applying process. having something like a r+¬sum+¬-page where your accomplishments are listed. maybe a combination of both? *either way* certificates should be a player-controlled feature. if a certificate would show, who issued it, there would be actually an incentive to create a "market" for certificates. Corps like EvE-University would profit a lot from a feature like this. Depending on who issued the certificate they could mean more (or less).
Zloco Crendraven BALKAN EXPRESS 322	Posted - 2013.05.03 14:47:00 - [34] - Quote Atm certificates are used only by new players. Quite a few newbies are guided by certificates. Imo the whole UI should be done and made somehow more simply. do them according professions, ships and fleet roles. Tips how to do that profession or how to fly a ship sould be included in those certs. Ex. If u want to be a trader u go for these ships and skills. Ifu like to kite, brawl, logi, ewar, bootser, active or passive tank u should find those skills in certs with role explanations. 2nd reason is for bragging. So transform the certificates in some kind of fun achievement system. And as 3rd certificates shuld be configurable and able to be saved. If u save a cert about a certain ship or role. That cert should be visible on the ship cert tab or all ships that fullfill that role. Shrotly, certs should be an igame evemon with some ship, fleet role and proffession presets. LF CSM8 candidate. Are you what lowsec needs? --->-átinyurl.com/afaawrb
Omnathious Deninard The Scope Gallente Federation 941	Posted - 2013.05.03 14:47:00 - [35] - Quote Make Certificates display in your CC on a wall or holographic display on your coffee table. Ideas For Drone Improvement Repourpose Deep Space Scanner Probes
Callduron 198	Posted - 2013.05.03 14:59:00 - [36] - Quote Could we have configurable certificates please? In Test we have a 30 day newbie plan, a 104 day plan, a special set of skill requirements in order to be eligible for certain ships (eg recons, logi, foxcats) and a set of required skills to be a cap ship pilot. It would be great if we could simply take the certificate off a central place, see what skills we still need to train to qualify and/or see if pilots claiming for reimbursement meet the skill requirements. It's a sandbox game - let's have player-created certs as well as CCP-created ones. I'm sure organisation like Eve Uni and RvB would love such a feature.
AyayaPanda 15 Minute Outliers Novus Dominatum 23	Posted - 2013.05.03 15:04:00 - [37] - Quote The certificate is useful for new players. Help them know the name of all the related skills if they want to improve their gunnery, cap, etc.
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 25	Posted - 2013.05.03 15:09:00 - [38] - Quote The certificate system as it currently stands is nearly worthless. None of your ideas seem worth an hour of development time unless it has some other unexpected benefit. I really appreciate that you are asking! Any form of public display is merely a intel tool. Third party sites using a limited api is a better option for bragging. Evemon's reminder system is the only reason why I claim them. Evemon is better for skill planning. In general I think you should leave skill planning to the players and third parties. What type of skill planning support might you give that would be useful? A corporate skill plan that you and the directors can compare your skills to. This would help a corporation answer the question: does this person meet our minimum standards? You could also have CCP prepared plans within the NPC corps. I still don't think this idea is worth any development time, but at least there would be some use and it would incorporate the players into planning the actual "certificates."
C DeLeon Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded 113	Posted - 2013.05.03 15:27:00 - [39] - Quote Stop saying certificates are useless! I'm still using it to follow my skill progression on my alts and it helps in the process of long-term skillqueue planning. It's not useless it's just outdated a little bit.
Theia Matova Dominance Theory 36	Posted - 2013.05.03 15:42:00 - [40] - Quote Certificates provide many functions: - As new player they may give you either right or wrong direction where to go - They can be used for checking skill levels of player - For me personally they also work as "achievements", I just want that higher level core competency! gaagh! I know that public certificates are rarely used but is there real reason to take them away? Many people joke with them. Pirates also use them for misleading info and so on. When you would implement easy certificate comparison then make us also feature that where one can set filter for minimum required skills and compare this certificate profile to the filter. Definitely don't take certificates away like many seem to say. Even reconsider if public certificates have purpose in EVE they might even have.. What comes to such comparison I perhaps would prefer pure comparison of skill rather than certificates. Since comparison between certificates can leave holes. so hmm in summary * don't take public certificates away * don't make comparison for certificates * make comparison to skills since thats what really matters? Certificates have purpose it does not need changing?

Master Technique Club Bear 3	Posted - 2013.05.03 15:56:00 - [41] - Quote I agree people need to stop saying they are useless, because if you actually read this thread, it is apparent that people are using them to track skills stuff for themselves, or to help guide them if they are truly new to Eve. I think the latter is extremely important because Eve is infamous for its steep learning curve. In light of that, I suppose my recommendation would be to cut back on how many there are, significantly. Re-design them as a tool to show new players what they need to semi-competently sit in a ship, fit it, use its intended weapon system, and activate its intended tank. Another idea I have wondered about is actually using them as a license in the eyes of NPCs. For instance, higher level mission agents not allowing you to run combat missions for them unless you have a basic set of certs for the class of ship that is required for those level of missions. The NPCs obviously don't want under-qualified pilots representing them in space! In a similar vein, I thought they could be used as a license for the Navy Factions ships, but I think that would require keeping the higher level ones, which don't really serve as much of a purpose as the basics. Lastly, I think the people saying they want customizable ones for corps/alliances should look into creating medals instead. Create a skill list your pilots have to have, they request the medal when then say they have the skills, check with API, then tag 'em. Then you have a quick indicator for things like if they qualify for a reimbursement.
Aprudena Gist GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 34	Posted - 2013.05.03 16:04:00 - [42] - Quote Most certificates promote long skills trains for V's for things that are not good uses of training time like t2 large spec specilization V's
Khoul Ay'd Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 49	Posted - 2013.05.03 16:22:00 - [43] - Quote Lloyd Roses wrote: Don't see any good coming out of public certificates, as they won't be looked up unless for intel in pvp. I think many people overlook the value of using certificates as a form of disinformation in the intelligence arena. You can selectively choose which certificates you make public. If I only advertise my low skilled certs and leave off my elites, and my enemy chooses to believe this am I not gaining an advantage, at least in the first engagement? Obviously an experienced intelligence agent should not fall for this, but what is it they say about one being born every minute... Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717 Mangala Solaris for CSM 8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=210535
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 25	Posted - 2013.05.03 16:23:00 - [44] - Quote C DeLeon wrote: Stop saying certificates are useless! I'm still using it to follow my skill progression on my alts and it helps in the process of long-term skillqueue planning. It's not useless it's just outdated a little bit. I am surprised to see so many supporters of certificates, since I have thought they were a joke since my first days in Eve. I would not trust a gaming company to tell me what I should be training. Every company, not just CCP, seems to have a set of weird and unrealistic ideas about what a new person in their game should be doing. This is part of their marketing and causes a type of game company blindness. For this reason any certificate created by CCP is likely to be disputable, and deemed insufficient, silly or meaningless. Which is why the real certificates should be built by players. This also fits in with the sandbox theme of the game. If TEST has a stupid 30 day training program then we can laugh at them (or copy a good program), but CCP stays away from the fray. Additional requirements for flying ships or doing missions are not needed. The problem with all of this is that the api and webtools already solve the problem for corporations. Which is why further development may not be worth the developer time, unless there is a secondary benefit (less character loading lag). Theia Matova wrote: so hmm in summary * don't take public certificates away * don't make comparison for certificates * make comparison to skills since thats what really matters? Certificates have purpose it does not need changing? If they told you that they could decrease character loading lag and double the number of people in fights would you still want to keep them? I am opposed to doing anything unless there is a side benefit.
Ersahi Kir Infinite Mobility SpaceMonkey's Alliance 147	Posted - 2013.05.03 16:31:00 - [45] - Quote Generally speaking certs are only good for helping new players skill through the first few months. Getting a weapon cert, a core cert, and a defensive cert can help them end up with a decently solid character after a few months. The issue with many of the certs is that they're ********. The higher level defensive certs require all damage type compensation skills to 5, but what's the point when most players are going to either use active hardeners or use passive hardeners on one or two damage types? Do we really need all racial drone specializations to 5 to be effective with drones? The system really breaks down outside of a few of the core certs. The other issue is that anyone who needs to know what your character can do isn't going to ask for a list of certs, they're going to ask for an API key and use that. Why use a less complete and useful tool (certs) when a better tool exists that gives a complete picture of what you have trained and what you are currently training? Certs need to help new players come up with a skill plan that makes sense.
Forlorn Wongraven Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion 52	Posted - 2013.05.03 16:34:00 - [46] - Quote While I have some ELITE certificates open to public they do not fill any role in EvE. Most of the certificates are wrong/do not help even when flying a ship and you follow the recommended certificates on the ship info panel. By that they do not help new players to actually use their skills correctly or guide them in their skillplan. Either rework all the certificates, remove them (when it is easy to do) or just plain ignore them in your development plan. Shadoo > whoever was the first nyx on grid Shadoo > THANK GOD YOU ARE A SMART MAN and fitted the best tank in PL Shadoo > (ie. cyno)
Onnen Mentar Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy 56	Posted - 2013.05.03 17:18:00 - [47] - Quote Investing developer resources into this broken monstrosity of a system seems like a huge waste of time. What would be useful is a way to know by which skills a certain item/ship is affected. That way if you want to be the ultimate rifter pilot you could just fit up your dream setup, then get an overview of the skills you may want to train to get better at flying it.
Aliventi Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 56	Posted - 2013.05.03 17:42:00 - [48] - Quote I think it would be awesome if we could make customizable certificates. For example: Say I had a noob that wanted to train a caracal and asked me what skills they would need. I would create a "caracal certificate". In this certificate I could have a missile skills sub certificate, a buffer shield tanking sub certificate, Navigation sub certificate (MWD skills), core skills sub certificate (fitting skills needed for a fit), Other sub certificate (Warp disruptor and maybe a stasis web). In these sub certificates I can highlight skills as critical or "can't fly it without these" and important "these skills will make you more effective". From there I can save this certificate. Then I can drag and drop it to them to save. This would allow them to see skills they need to train. Also, if this certificate could swap over to a skill plan where it would be quick and easy for them to right click -> market details to buy the skills. Boom. Trade-able skill plans. Back on topic: certificate are useless. Removing them from the game would have minor effect. The most use I have ever gotten out of them is I have maybe 2-3 times found a useful skill by going through the certificates. They aren't even a useful intel source because no one leaves them on public. It would be more useful to just get rid off the basic/standard/improved/elite and just have "groups" of skills. For example say I wanted to train ECM for a falcon. I could find the "ECM certificate" and it would have relevant ECM skills (perhaps laid out in a tree format showing prereqs) that I could hover over and find out more info on each skill. That would actually be useful to find out about skills you didn't know existed.
Kel hound Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking 35	Posted - 2013.05.03 17:55:00 - [49] - Quote The entire cert system either needs to have a good solid review, followed by an overhaul or it needs to be left alone. I don't really want to give away any more information than I have to when someone runs info on me, so I don't like to display many certs. Even if it just displayed how many certs I had I still wouldn't be down with that. It gives an idea as to how skilled a character is and even that is more information than I wish to give someone looking to fight me. I suppose being able to compare certs with other people would be "interesting" but since so many certs are pointless anyway I cant say my care-cup is overflowing to see this happen. ...and really thats the biggest problem for doing anything with certs. What is the point of them? Really, the only reason I even claim them is so the damn button stops blinking at me. You can say they help newbies with skill training but honestly as a newbie I benefited much more from talking to people and playing with EVE mon than I ever did from reviewing certs. Indeed, I think I wasted more time with certs than I saved. If you want my honest feedback I think certs need a much better reason to exist than currently they have.
Salpad Carebears with Attitude 332	Posted - 2013.05.03 18:32:00 - [50] - Quote CCP Ytterbium wrote: Remove the ability to set Certificates as public This is ***ing stupid. Anything* but this! I haven't set my certs visibile, and I'm unlikely to do that, although once I get Core Competency maxed out (if I ever do) I might set that one visible. But still, why take something away that players other than me might find useful? One idea: Allow each player the choice of making each individual certificate visible by: Other members of his corp Other members of his corp (except when he's in an NPC corp) Other members of his alliance Everyone to whom he has set his standing as Excellent Everyone to whom he has set his standing as Good or better Everyone to whom he has set his standing to neutral or better No one

Mia Restolo Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 96	Posted - 2013.05.03 18:41:00 - [51] - Quote Meh, no need to even look at it... they make ok skilling guides for new people but don't have much relevance to anyone else. No one has them set to public because they give away too much information. I don't see any reason to spend any time changing or looking at them as most players won't see any benefit from it.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Academy The ROC 88	Posted - 2013.05.03 18:45:00 - [52] - Quote I wouldn't waste dev time on this. Certs are for newbros to figure out a semi appropriate path to certain ships when they first start out. And making them public is either to show off something hard, or is just a good way to tell your prospective opponent what skills you have and what ships you fly ahead of time. If there were a "Space Pimpin'" certificate, I'd make that one public. If they were achievement style stuff, like "100 players podded", or "Scrap-monger" (salvagers), then yeah, I can see them being used. But unless you entirely revamp what they are for, no, I wouldn't waste the time to do it. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á
mkint 1020	Posted - 2013.05.03 18:45:00 - [53] - Quote I think for certs to become even more useful, a few things should happen: a) every single skill worked into it. Or even optional skills and certs simply to show how every last skill connect. Plus ships pages, and perhaps modules. Maybe tie it into fitting management. b) combine the cert planner and the skill queue. It'd be pretty freakin' awesome if the cert browser had every last bit of functionality for skill planning, scheduling, browsing. Make the system such an indispensable tool that people use it every single day. Combine in that all the tools to share any possible skill information with various levels of granularity. Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun.
Ruze Next Stage Initiative Trans-Stellar Industries 193	Posted - 2013.05.03 18:49:00 - [54] - Quote First and foremost, any information on our character sheet should be voluntary, not mandatory. Give the player the option to hide any and all data. Secondly, incorporate this in the corporate mechanics that we can pull up a 'detailed' character sheet which shows not just certificates but employment history and the like when the character applies, IF they submit to this level of detail. Thirdly, incorporate into those very same mechanics the API system, so that it's in-game and no longer external. Focusing on the actual Op, since my protest for less available detail is probably going to be ignored: The certificates, regretfully, don't reflect very well for any metric beyond 'skills complete'. It sounds great in theory, but if you need a player who is capable of armor tanking an Amarr cruiser and using t2 lasers while having the supporting skills to make them effective at it, the certificates are so convoluted and confusing (with many skills used that are not necessary, etc), that it's easier just to ask the person and scan their ship when they show up. Overhauling the system, not just for visibilities sake, is probably a great suggestion. Please refer to the very helpful and visually accessible listing you made in the player orientation videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLF614A7A6461E61E1&feature=player_detailpage&v=aI4VkO6qr0U#t=98s If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality.-á That 'griefer/thief' is probably more sane than you are.-á How screwed up is that?
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Atrocitas 3400	Posted - 2013.05.03 18:53:00 - [55] - Quote CCP Ytterbium wrote: Remove the ability to set Certificates as public People tend to be protective of their SP and abilities, so I'd say this is definitely the right answer. Quote: As another topic for you guys to voice your feedback to, what information would you feel worried about if it was displayed as public by default and why? I don't want anything visible which would give someone any insight into my current tactical status. This includes whether I'm in a fleet, undocked, what ship I'm in, where I am, how many SP I have, what SP I have, etc. I don't mind things like bounty status, sec status, employment history, and such. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Scatim Helicon GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1874	Posted - 2013.05.03 19:04:00 - [56] - Quote Yeah, repeating the idea of player/corp/alliance created certificates. The existing ones are kinda arbitrary and have some weird quirks to them, allowing us to define our own would make far more sense and be much more useful for nudging players in the direction of training useful skills. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge **.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006 ~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever.
Jovat Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 11	Posted - 2013.05.03 19:21:00 - [57] - Quote Certificates are fun, but they suffer from the problem that they have no gameplay mechanic whatsoever. I'd like it if granting a certificate should have a very small bonus to some part of the game in one way or other; Shield tanking granting .5% bonus to shield hp for instance would be interesting, representing the synergistic learning of what the certificate grants. Or perhaps certificates grant a small standing bonus with certain NPC corps/agents. Granting certificates should cost ISK (and perhaps relevant materials) but come with some item as a 'graduation present' to add another item generation mechanism in the game and present an ISK sink. corp/alliance visibility settings of certificates sounds useful to me.
Max Kolonko High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance 269	Posted - 2013.05.03 19:37:00 - [58] - Quote Jonas Sukarala wrote: Daedalus II wrote: The only certificate I show publicly is Hull tanking: elite, because as we all know, real men hull tank. I think certificates should be changed into what people expected them to be when they were introduced; a collection of skills an experienced person can define and then distribute to less experienced persons to indicate what they need to train to reach a specific goal (to join a corp, to fit in a fleet, and so on). This is pretty much the only thing that would make certificates truly useful. I guess the original certificates could be kept, at least for the basic stuff, but there need to be a possibility to inject new custom certificates. This also opens up other interesting things, such as personal skill planning (like a built in EveMon). Also new types of services where you for example could sell fully fitted ships + certificate to fly them properly. mmm.. create new ones with specific skills // like doctrine certificates Problem with doctrines is that they evolve and change drastically in time - Unless You make player made certificates this will not work. Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Camios Minmatar Bread Corporation 149	Posted - 2013.05.03 19:53:00 - [59] - Quote What are the goals of certificates beyond skills? Simplification, that makes goal-setting more easy and immediate thanks to the "recommended" tab of the info panel of every subcapital ship. They should look like "Brief Skill" Privacy, if you don't want to show all your character data you can use these. Issues that frustrate this design: Currently, I have 250 skills trained to various levels, and I have 70 certificates. There's little simplification in this: they look and work like another layer of skills. All those who want to see your personal data will ask you for api keys and be done with it, they won't bother looking into certificates that they don't even know the meaning of. How I think they could be made better: Remove most of them, they should be a "condensation" of skills while instead they are only another mess we don't need at all Less levels. It does not make sense to have 5 levels of certificates when the generic prescription is to train almost all skills to level 4, or 5, or at least in some cases to 3. There are strange cases that should not be covered by certificates. Certificates are a tool for newbies. Certificates like "Cruiser Advanced Rail Turrets" are useless, in my opinion all "advanced" certificates are useless. Starter profession and Core certificates are complessively good.
Atomic Option Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness 55	Posted - 2013.05.03 20:09:00 - [60] - Quote John 1135 wrote: Debora Tsung wrote: Actually I'd also like the ability to set them on visible to corp/alliance members only, etc. Nice. So I'm imagining here certificates that are created by your corporation/alliance, and can be made visible to only your corp/alliance so they can see what their pilots can do. A finesse would be a Corp Certs View, that lets appropriate officers get the count of pilots with each of their custom certs. So they can see how well prepared they are to fly given doctrines (and can use that to plan new ones). Remove the current certs. They're useless. The corp/alliance certs are a great idea and should be combined with a rework of Decorations. Make them automatically awarded when corp/alliance set criteria are met. The criteria could be anything from skills trained to kills in a certain ship or ship class or with a certain weapon class or kills of a some other corp or kills against corps with certain standings (RvB could use that) Since it's folded into a new Decorations system, the certificate would stay with the character after leaving the corp or alliance. This way you could get an ingame "degree" from places like EVE University that would stick with you after you left and could be shown to a corp you're applying to. These decorations would be visible to alliance by default but could be discarded, made private, made public or made visible just to corp. If you discard a certificate you'd have to rejoin the corp that gave it to you to get it back.



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