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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Saiyon
Deorum Viatores
40
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Posted - 2011.10.20 11:37:00 -
[181] - Quote
Deorum Viatores is a new Corp with a some of very new players. Most of us have less than 2 million SP's. Most of us are IRL friends.
Currently we are getting our PvP fix by roaming low-sec and using High Sec to earn ISK.
We would love to start venturing into null-sec. The desire for us to go into null-sec isn't to mine or do PI etc. Initially it would be to kill and maybe do some ratting.
What is keeping us out of null-sec is quite simple:
We have the perception that we will just get blobbed and ganked in null-sec.
I stress the word perception as it might not be as bad as we fear. We will be giving at a go, at least to find out for real anyway.
Shifting resources about will not be a game changer / motivating factor for us.
Maybe the tools are already available and we are just too noob to use them or appreciate them.
I am struggling to think of a 4 - 5 man fleet composition that could evade the blob, maybe get the odd kill e.g. a ratter.
Maybe with interceptors, stealth bombers and such this is currently achievable as I said we are noobs.
I am thinking if there where small ships e.g. frigate size that where immune to warp bubbles only or basically had some little advantage to evade the blob we would be gunning for them straight away. One corp mate mentioned how cool tech 3 frigates might be, maybe some creative thinking can be applied by the devs.
Anyhow the tldr verion of this post is:
It's not a desire for resources that will get us into null-sec, it's actually being able to get in and accomplish anything that is our barrier to entry. Currently it seems like joining a large alliance or having a very large amount of ISK is the only real means to participate in null.
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Shadowsword
The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva
30
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:39:00 -
[182] - Quote
Russell Casey wrote:This may sound strange coming from a highsec player but since you asked, I will tell the truth----and the truth shall make you mad: dedicated highsec players will not feel the need to carve out chunks of low/0.0/WH space for themselves or even go there until there's something they want that they cannot get in empire.
And since everything can be bought from someone if you have enough isk---basically if you spend enough time farming or buy PLEX---creating this want is only possible by nerfing PvE in highsec into the ground. You know those pesky belt rats you have to kill every twenty minutes or so when you mine in your hulk? And how the measly 200K, assuming it's a 0.5 belt, you bring in after an hour in the belt is barely noticeably next to the massive ore haul?
That measly 200K per hour would have to be the average income of a highsec player to sufficiently motivate them out of highsec.
A handful of asteroids depleting in a single cycle per belt, lukewarm incursions that can be done with a bunch of frigates, PI only capable of spitting up the cheapest resources at the slowest rate, and missions only going up to level 2 (please withhold your raging till the end of the post, thank you). Farming highsec belts in a hulk would have to be as pointless as ratting there in a T3 cruiser.
But the problem is, it's too late to do that. People are comfortable where they're at and they've had it that way for years. If CCP did just come out and say, "yeah you can solo in highsec, but you're going to be dirt poor, and we mean so poor that even a cruiser will be like a ferrari to you" they'd lose more subs than they did with Monoclegate because they would tearing down an entire way of life. We're well past the "reward vs. risk" incentive and there's no going back.
Move ice to null? Please, my two hulk alts mine veldspar all day and I don't own a POS so why should I care?
Reduce the loot/salvage of mission rats? I don't bother with the wrecks unless I see a ninja, then I shoot them with my marauder.
Better rewards in low/NPC null? Uh, I don't want to get ganked unless I'm at Jita. And besides, I have everything I need in highsec. Look at my shiny faction BS.
CCP, in their benevolent attempts to promote player interaction and cooperation inadvertantly added more ISK-printing options like lvl 4s and Incursions and because they're worried about losing lots of subs (which they should be) have nerfed the ISK-printing machine too slowly and not enough to really make a difference. As a result, empire and nullsec have grown further and further apart with each passing year and each expansion because they're essentially two separate games that cross each other's paths once in a while.
Highsec is essentially independent of nullsec which, in turn has become dependent on the goods flowing in from highsec when it should be the other way around. Nullsec players can't do squat to change highsec, and CCP won't risk losing the subs of their largest playerbase. Highsec controls both of them.
Case in point: whenever the goons declare war on miners, everyone yaps and cries that they're going to kill EVE as if such a thing were possible. They rampage around, pop some exhumers, cause a little mayhem, but when they finally have shot their load and call it a jihad, the highsec farmers go right back to what they were doing and a week later it doesn't seem like anything's changed at all except maybe a few hundred players have learned not to ignore rookie ships idling next to them.
Why is this? Because they're already wealthy enough to replace their losses from highsec PvE, and if not, they soon will be. Events like Hulkageddon and the Ice Embargo are like throwing rocks into a lake. You disturb the water and make some ripples, but come back an hour later and it's the same lake as before. Throwing in more rocks will not change the lake, you have to build a dam or drain it.
You may now rage.
You sir speak the truth, about how disastrous it would be to CCP if high-sec was nerfed as much as some are screaming for.
Turning the drone mineral faucet into isks certainly sound like a good idea.
So there need to be things the high-sec players want, and that they can't just buy with isks in Jita. As an example, you could make the future ship paintjob feature to be done only in some null-sec POS structure. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
70
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:39:00 -
[183] - Quote
Since no one else seems to be willing to ever slam a blue tag these days ..
@Soundwave: Mining will NEVER have any form of revival regardless of what you do to limit ratted minerals, there were no appreciable change to mining with the two loot-reproc changes which were probably about the same magnitude .. hoping that drone changes will somehow achieve it is folly.
Mining will NEVER have any form of revival "because of bot" which is here "because of :yawnmining:" .. make mining an interactive part of the game, make it benefit from cooperation, make it create less of a schism twixt killing and caring .. in short: redesign mining to revive mining, don't deceive yourself by thinking that peripheral changes will affect parts of the core (or what used to be core).
As for the OP: For me it is very simple, I left null due to excessive blobbing. Skill, tactics and intelligence/common sense (STIC) died when blobs became the alpha-omega .. being a cog in machine is barely tolerable, but being a drop of oil on a cog is not even close. Make all but a few null mechanics favour audacity and STIC to such an extent that blobs are rarely formed/needed. Make null reward the vigilant (patrolling ones space) and penalize the slobs (sov for moons and bots only). In short: Make me believe that my presence might matter out there. |
M1AU
Rheintal Underground Rising
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:47:00 -
[184] - Quote
What keeps me from going into null-sec is simple: high-sec is safe.
For me the tools to stay safe in null-sec or even low-sec are not fun to use. Pressing the d-scan regularly and checking local is in my opinion dump but it doesn't work without it I guess...
I would probably go there if I know that I can buy back my lost ship at a station near me for basically the same price as if I would in Jita. But that will never happen I guess.
So no null-sec for me. |
Karim alRashid
Aliastra Gallente Federation
62
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:50:00 -
[185] - Quote
Adelphie wrote: So my question to non-null sec players - What keeps you out of null, and what features would you like to see which might entice you to venture out here?
Well, I have only played in 0.0. In highsec I'm just subscribed, not playing ... so not sure if you're asking people who play in highsec as opposed to people who don't play in 0.0 ...
Anyway, what keeps me out of null ?
There is no point being there. You, as a person, do not achieve anything. Your playtime is governed by your alliance leaders, often not even by your corp leaders, you work to achieve their goals and you, as an individual rank and file pilot do not make a difference, so anything that your alliance achieves or fails at, is neither your achievement nor your own failure.
The few alliance leaders, the few FCs - they play in 0.0.
Others are just sheep and being sheep is boring. Almost as boring as not playing at all, but then it takes much more effort too.
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xh'neivers
House of Carrikk
4
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Posted - 2011.10.20 11:53:00 -
[186] - Quote
This may not work, as it's just a off the top of the head thing. But, how about making some Drones drop baseline t2 mats?
Including the ones in High sec.
With the (apparent) changes coming to T2 production, spreading the materials about would do a couple of things. Including potentially affecting the value of tech moons.
Still think one of the easiest solutions would be to spread resources out, make them depleteable and increase the size of low and null sec massively.
Mining system revamp would really help - especially if roid belts in 1.0 and down started to vanish (other than ones found via exploration).
And that stupid thing of items taking up less volume than the minerals that make them. |
Jenn Makanen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:58:00 -
[187] - Quote
xh'neivers wrote:And that stupid thing of items taking up less volume than the minerals that make them.
Items being smaller than the components is fine. Full recovery on the other hand, is more of a problem.
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Ogi Talvanen
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
23
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Posted - 2011.10.20 12:12:00 -
[188] - Quote
Why do you all think we need more ppl in null? Basically tldr of this whole thread is; high sec ppl want to make high sec out of null and wh dwellers want to make wh out of null. |
Mr Painless
Temnava Legion
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 12:18:00 -
[189] - Quote
Jada Maroo wrote:I simply have no desire to be a pet or a slave to some monolithic 0.0 mega alliance. The only way I'd ever consider null is if it got shattered into lots of little pieces and large blocs were impossible to hold onto. Until that day, I'll stay in wormholes.
^This^
And kill local in nullsec. Or at least create a mechanic that will allow local to be shut down or avoided, like a "local cloaking device" or some destructible structure that enables/disables local in system. Something to make life harder on 0.0 bots. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
207
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 12:34:00 -
[190] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:This thread is pretty awesome. You guys will get a few 0.0 changes this winter, smaller ones that should improve quality of life.
One thing I'm thinking about, but not entirely sure about is this: Putting bounties on drones instead of minerals. Mining used to be a viable way of making money in nullsec, but the increase in available minerals has driven the price down. I'm wondering if putting bounties on drones won't give mining a bit of a revival and put some life back in 0.0.
It would be a hell of a lot more effective and would make a whole lot more sense than nerfing the resoruces in wormholes.
+1 Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
207
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Posted - 2011.10.20 12:35:00 -
[191] - Quote
Mr Painless wrote:Jada Maroo wrote:I simply have no desire to be a pet or a slave to some monolithic 0.0 mega alliance. The only way I'd ever consider null is if it got shattered into lots of little pieces and large blocs were impossible to hold onto. Until that day, I'll stay in wormholes. ^This^ And kill local in nullsec. Or at least create a mechanic that will allow local to be shut down or avoided, like a "local cloaking device" or some destructible structure that enables/disables local in system. Something to make life harder on 0.0 bots.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=23439&find=unread Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
70
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 12:36:00 -
[192] - Quote
Adelphie wrote:
So my question to non-null sec players - What keeps you out of null, and what features would you like to see which might entice you to venture out here?
CCP alt detected. I would love to comment about this but I'm afraid CCP will use anything I say to nerf specific aspects I outline to make nullsec look more attractive by destroying the things I like about w-space. I don't want to help fund/fuel your RMT empire in null, mmmkay? We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Sarina Berghil
New Zion Judge Advocate
15
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Posted - 2011.10.20 12:57:00 -
[193] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:This thread is pretty awesome. You guys will get a few 0.0 changes this winter, smaller ones that should improve quality of life.
One thing I'm thinking about, but not entirely sure about is this: Putting bounties on drones instead of minerals. Mining used to be a viable way of making money in nullsec, but the increase in available minerals has driven the price down. I'm wondering if putting bounties on drones won't give mining a bit of a revival and put some life back in 0.0.
I can see the idea in this, but isn't minerals what makes drones what they are? They would need another kind of niche role in that case. Drones are the source of an interesting economic and logistical niche in all of Eve, not just null.
How about changing the frequency at which drones appear, that could push mineral prices upward, and make a drone occurence a bit of a jackpot instead of a chore.
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Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:06:00 -
[194] - Quote
Null will still be the paradise for people having nothing else to do all day long but look at their screen and fap in front of KB's, null changes up coming will not change this. |
Freyh
ClownStar
21
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:07:00 -
[195] - Quote
It would be a much more interesting discussion how we should repopulate eve. And specifically, how to improve areas that really need to be improved?
0.0 have so many tools and toys to play with you can get dizzy just thinking about it. Imagine if highsec would get just some of them. Want to go from Rens to Jita? No problem! just go to your pos and use the jumpbridge and within a few seconds youre there. Want to safely transport whatever you like across highsec? Just use a jumpfreighter! No need to having to deal with lowsec and gankers and all that stuff. Just do as you like. There are no penalty.
What if, we turned the discussion around and asked "what are we going to do with lowsec?" Lowsec has so much potential to be a fantastic playground for fast and violent pvp and pve but its not used.
Wormholes are also sitting there, just waiting to be properly implemented. I have so many ideas about wormholes i almost go crazy! :)
But instead we are still discussing how to repopulate 0.0. As if 0.0 was in dire need of improvement.
I think the greatest improvement to 0.0 would be to cut the population out there with 50%, remove jumpbridges and remove jumpfreighters. It would be awesome to see the 0.0 dwellers actually having to work for their sov again. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
85
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:16:00 -
[196] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:This thread is pretty awesome. You guys will get a few 0.0 changes this winter, smaller ones that should improve quality of life.
One thing I'm thinking about, but not entirely sure about is this: Putting bounties on drones instead of minerals. Mining used to be a viable way of making money in nullsec, but the increase in available minerals has driven the price down. I'm wondering if putting bounties on drones won't give mining a bit of a revival and put some life back in 0.0.
Don't get rid of drone droppings completely if you do this. Just reduce them.
Also as I stated above, another source of null minerals is hauling in 425mm guns and reprocessing them. I recommend redoing the size and mineral makeup of all modules. Redoing the mineral makeup means modules will need fewer minerals, and they will be higher end minerals to keep the cost the same. The result will be a breaking of the 1 to 4 to 16... ratio, something that I feel you should accept. It will also increase demand for high ends. This allows you to not nerf w-space roids (keeps w inhabitants happy), and makes null mining even more attractive. CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. Subscribers can never answer a question posed to CCP. Only CCP can. |
Shadowsword
The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva
30
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:32:00 -
[197] - Quote
Another way to improve the attractiveness of null-sec mining would be to change a lot of T1 ship blueprints and capital part blueprints so that they need less tritanium/pyerite and more megacyte/zydrine. |
Skadi Asgaurd
Fluffy Carebears
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:35:00 -
[198] - Quote
Personally I think it would be interesting to firstly do a survey across the entire player base to see where there interests are.
I personally think and gauging from the amount of complaints regarding non-consensual pvp that the majority of players may actually be PVE'ers if that is the case then drawing players to null sec is almost impossible.
However I think this a great thread and the original poster approached the topic in the correct way |
knobber Jobbler
Holding Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:36:00 -
[199] - Quote
What keeps me out of null?
Firstly I lived in null for 8 months and loved it but these things stop me going back today: It's a job out there, very little room for anyone but die hard eve players. It can cost allot - running in those big fleets, getting killed within 10 minutes to lag and losing a 200m bs isn't fun. Supercaps - to powerful, if you haven't got one youre just food to those with. Sov warfare is boring Resources - the resource spread is crap, it stagnates. Bots and rmt - honest players are at a disadvantage as they can't compete economically with those botting and those that did bot who sit on hundreds of billions of ill gotten isk.
That said, I will move back once I've got an isk stock pile back and I have the time spare. It's just not compatible with a 60 hour work week, partner, dog and social life. |
Metal Icarus
xHELLonEARTHx Rookie Empire
13
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Posted - 2011.10.20 13:47:00 -
[200] - Quote
We used to be in NullSec, but after the sanctum nerf, we struggled to make our rent payment. We responded to CTA's, fought for our landlord in the war. We got nothing in return just "Get us that rent payment". Then, they nerfed jumpbridges. The Jumpbridge network was a part of the rental contract, and when the nerf happened, they had to choose which route to use. They left us out of the network.
How to repopulate nullsec.... I can think of two ways of the top of this post which could help...
We love nullsec and want to go back. Currently there is huge epidemic of "Post-Nullsec Depression" it is serious. The medication for it only resides in one place; 0.0.
If you (CCP) decide that the above is not good enough, then try to make it so that small alliances can maintain an economy. The current population is so low and jump frieghting is so risky (through unstable 0.0) that any type of economy is impractical, and hardly worth going back and forth.
in other words...
TL;DR: ITT: People coming with ideas to recover nullsec from the sanctum nerf and jb nerf. How about an undo button?
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Jenn Makanen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2011.10.20 13:53:00 -
[201] - Quote
The whole rental thing sounds very like Danegeld. |
Skadi Asgaurd
Fluffy Carebears
0
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Posted - 2011.10.20 13:55:00 -
[202] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:This thread is pretty awesome. You guys will get a few 0.0 changes this winter, smaller ones that should improve quality of life.
One thing I'm thinking about, but not entirely sure about is this: Putting bounties on drones instead of minerals. Mining used to be a viable way of making money in nullsec, but the increase in available minerals has driven the price down. I'm wondering if putting bounties on drones won't give mining a bit of a revival and put some life back in 0.0.
Seriously Soundwave 9 pages of constructive talk about null sec and all you say is put bounties on drones ? You're a bright guy you've been with CCP for a long time. Perhaps look back to the days you had huge numbers in null sec and try and figure out why .
Why not limit the size of Corporations and Alliances thus avoiding moster factions like BOB was, like goons now are. If you do, do this remember to remove the set to blue option otherwise it's pointless. Image the conflict if you had 100 corps/alliances with 500 members versus having 3 or 4 corps/alliance with 4000 members.
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Karn Dulake
Souls Must Be Trampled The.Alliance
50
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Posted - 2011.10.20 13:56:00 -
[203] - Quote
This might just be the best thread ive ever seen on this forum
Im mainly a highsec man because there is so much more to do here and i like being a casual player who does not have to worry that much.
Wars are great and normally consist of small gangs
I can log on and off whenever i want and no one is going to give me a bollocking.
Lowsec is a waste of time as there is nothing there that you cannot get in highsec (dont give me any **** about 5/10s)
When i was in nullsec i found it was sanctums-kill people-sanctums kill people- hide from monsters. repeat.
Perhaps for mining- (including Grav sites)
highsec gave 100% of ore per cycle. lowsec gave 150% of ore per cycle nullsec gave 200% of ore per cycle
Lowsec gave 8/10 plexes (rare but there)
Nullsec changes have been far better answered than i could ever hope to.
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Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
70
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:58:00 -
[204] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:This thread is pretty awesome. You guys will get a few 0.0 changes this winter, smaller ones that should improve quality of life.
One thing I'm thinking about, but not entirely sure about is this: Putting bounties on drones instead of minerals. Mining used to be a viable way of making money in nullsec, but the increase in available minerals has driven the price down. I'm wondering if putting bounties on drones won't give mining a bit of a revival and put some life back in 0.0.
SOUNDWAVE: Make them salvaged NOT reprocessed.
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Tarikan
Hardcore p0wnography Cascade Probable
5
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Posted - 2011.10.20 14:08:00 -
[205] - Quote
David Grogan wrote:Freyh wrote: ive gotten my dose of abuse from pimplesqueesing seventeen year old FC's. you've been in Evildead's fleets too?
thankfully i won't be experiencing those :P (i hide when he calls for a fleet op) |
T'Laar Bok
33
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 14:13:00 -
[206] - Quote
Adelphie wrote:What keeps you out of null?
People shoot at me
Amphetimines are your friend. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
210
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Posted - 2011.10.20 14:13:00 -
[207] - Quote
The idea of concentrating the choice resources does nothing more than isolate them from the majority of players by hiding them under mega-alliances. Smaller corps and alliances have no chance at them and won't even try.
Spread the resources out. The ultimate null-sec smear campaign! Spread the tech moons EVERYWHERE in null - break up the concentrations. Give people a reason to go anywhere and everywhere because they could do so, find the mega-alliance can't spread itself thin enough to get there, and actually succeed.
Give people reasons to go to the unoccupied (or low occupied) areas. Give 'em some goo. Give 'em some sanctums. Share the love.
That WILL encourage more people into null, knowing they now have a chance to carve out their own little corner of success.
it's really that simple. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Dunbar Hulan
The Flaming Sideburn's Art of War Alliance
14
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Posted - 2011.10.20 14:22:00 -
[208] - Quote
I will say this: Null sec is way more fun than low sec, travelling around null is is kind of interesting, bubbles, possible dictors waiting on the gates, cynos etc. Null really makes you think before you do anything. Teamwork is usually paramount. I think people in empire aren't really prepared for the culture change in null, in empire, you can usually travel around worry free, going about your daily business, in null, even the daily mundane tasks can be dangerous. I think this is the main reason that keeps empire dwellers out of null. There is no real comparison between low and null, low is kinda meh to be honest. Usually a bunch on the gate waiting and if you are coming up from null, then it's fairly simple to get past the campers. So for any empire dwellers- don't compare null to your experience in low. Another good thing about null is the lack of excessive smack talk and greifing that goes on, Sure, you'll die at some point, everyone in null gets podded or loses a ship eventually, but the reason there is hardly any smack going on is that it could be you next time, just the way life rolls in null. So compared to empire, you won't have a bunch of wannabe pvpers, hanging outside a station sitting next to worthless containers acting out their life of hard core pvp action. So for me anyway, a good way to get the shift from empire to null would be by an incentive of some sort and also some sort of training to prepare people for the cultural change, i.e, the change in doing even the most mundane tasks for example.
There it is. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
663
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 14:26:00 -
[209] - Quote
Skadi Asgaurd wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:This thread is pretty awesome. You guys will get a few 0.0 changes this winter, smaller ones that should improve quality of life.
One thing I'm thinking about, but not entirely sure about is this: Putting bounties on drones instead of minerals. Mining used to be a viable way of making money in nullsec, but the increase in available minerals has driven the price down. I'm wondering if putting bounties on drones won't give mining a bit of a revival and put some life back in 0.0. Seriously Soundwave 9 pages of constructive talk about null sec and all you say is put bounties on drones ? You're a bright guy you've been with CCP for a long time. Perhaps look back to the days you had huge numbers in null sec and try and figure out why . Why not limit the size of Corporations and Alliances thus avoiding moster factions like BOB was, like goons now are. If you do, do this remember to remove the set to blue option otherwise it's pointless. Image the conflict if you had 100 corps/alliances with 500 members versus having 3 or 4 corps/alliance with 4000 members.
This suggestion keeps coming up and it gets debunked every time. It's wrong in principle (who are you to tell me how many friends I can have) and easily evaded in practice ("Add alliance ticker to overview, guys") Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn
81
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 14:27:00 -
[210] - Quote
forcing people that dont care about 0.0 out to 0.0 by nerfing high sec will only see a drop in subs.
i like null sec BUT i hate the current sov system... its worse than the old one at present.
Blob fighting is extremely boring its literally alpha this n that and there is no fun in hoping either you get a killmail from your one shot or you lose your ship from that one shot. its like flipping a coin (heads your dead & tails for mails).... just as boring as ice mining tbh. FC says primary this guy secondary that guy, hold on gate, jump, and warp. thats it over n over thats it,
it gets very boring after a few days. Even the obligatory guy that calls "pen|s" on comms gets old.
i miss small scale skirmish pvp. Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless your from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs. |
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