Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 .. 13 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
135
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:14:00 -
[151] - Quote
xxArchangelxx wrote:...Shelling out 30M in a frig / cruiser roam for a clone blows... On those Cruisers, how much are you paying for your ship and fittings?
|
Real Poison
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
146
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:15:00 -
[152] - Quote
Thanks, even though it's not that much of a change. Could you please put away the exponential cost increase?
I'm close to the Tau clone and besides fun PVP fleets i'm not doing much (as in living off of savings, not earning anything). And i surely would prefer to burn my isk on ships alone compared to overexpensive pods.
Even after the change a pod (without implants) will still hurt me more than a Tech-2 frigate. When i don't have a proper ship at hand for a fleet i will probably still not mind to bring tackle and rather log. |
Random McNally
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
9743
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:19:00 -
[153] - Quote
Good start! I approve of this. Trim a little deeper! Red Fed Grunt.-á Co-Host of the High Drag Podcast. http://highdrag.wordpress.com/ Free Saede!!-á Grats to the CSM 8 elect!!! |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
382
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:26:00 -
[154] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:So getting podded in 0.0 in a 1m frigate still costs me 32m.
Some problem. My main char will continue to be in station. These price changes will make no difference in my willing to undock in anything less expensive than my clone.
I think CCP is worry of loosing this ISK sink but I think I have a possible solution:
I think the solution to this problem could be found by doing the opposite. Each clone upgrade to the next level should cost x more times what it costs today, then any clone replacement should cost a base fee of 1M isk. We shift the cost structure for the moment of the upgrade and that is it.
Only CCP can do the math to check if this is possible, we need to check statistics and determine how many times a player with skill points x was killed in x period of time. Then calculate an average and determine the base multiplier for the clone upgrade.
In terms of ISK spend, players will spend the same as today and CCP will not loose ISK, but in practice it solves the undocking problem and in long term it also increases CCP sink because players will be killed much more.
Finally, to avoid huge costs each time we need to upgrade a clone, CCP also needs to review the list of clones available and the skill points associated to each one and round them. We need a much small progression skill points jump between clones (until we reach 100M points) and something that makes more sense when we look at the clone window. I think that until 10M points the clone progression should be make in jumps of 1M, then until 100M in jumps of 5M and after that in jumps of 10M.
Test 1, 2, 3... |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
281
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:35:00 -
[155] - Quote
One consideration for those talking about the 'ISK sink of clones' being important.
I have no metrics to support this but I'm fairly sure a lot more pvpers would take to nullsec and many many more clones would be destroyed if the clone cost was set at some relatively low ISK value.
All those players like myself that see pvp as a cost effectiveness exercise currently, unshackled to create an uninhibited pvp-scape would arguably make up for with increased volume of destruction the amount of ISK sunk directly by clone costs. |
Lord Xyon
Old Timers Guild Inc.
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:39:00 -
[156] - Quote
I only scanned through some of the responses, so if this was brought up before then forgive me. However I think this is a great step. I am thinking about taking advantage of this but in combination with another feature.
Currently we use closer alts in wormholes. Quick way to take a low skilled pilot to ram a lot of mass though a wormhole to close that last little critical bit. If they get caught on the wrong side of the wormhole then simple self destruct. you loose a 5 mill cruiser but nothing else. Because it doesn't take much training to make a closer alt, 3 days tops, you can keep the default clone. However you can't really train up a lot of other skills. Since your going to be blowing this pilot up a lot, you don't want to buy a clone. However if the price is cheap enough I might use the new plex to train another character on my account to add a few more skills to make the closer a little more useful in the hole. I will never get him up to very high because of clone cost but might still give this a try.
Worst case scenario I lose one of my closer alts and gain another utility character. |
xxArchangelxx
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:39:00 -
[157] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:xxArchangelxx wrote:...Shelling out 30M in a frig / cruiser roam for a clone blows... On those Cruisers, how much are you paying for your ship and fittings?
The topic isnt about the ship or fittings, its about the clones and the costs associated with replacing one. |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
135
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:47:00 -
[158] - Quote
xxArchangelxx wrote: The topic isnt about the ship or fittings, its about the clones and the costs associated with replacing one.
The topic is 'costs too much'... and perhaps affects game play.
Didn't your cruiser and fittings cost a lot more? |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
385
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:50:00 -
[159] - Quote
Cromzor wrote:Please remove learning implants (give everyone the equivalent of +5s). If isk sinks are needed to counteract that, do whatever. Learning implants are the only reason I dont pvp.
There always be many other implants, unless we remove them all there will always be 1 implant that will prevent you from undocking...
I think the solution to fix that issue can be done using the clone system. This system needs a huge review and if we could have more clones and jump clones with much more frequency than 24 hours I think that problem is solved.
For example:
- We should be able to have multiple clones in the same station and its the number of stations (we can have clones) be the ones limited to 5. - Inside the same station we should be able to change clones how many times we want (like we change ships and for a fee) and only limit the clone jump every 24 hours between clones in different stations. Test 1, 2, 3... |
Major Trant
The Flowing Penguins Iron Oxide.
160
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:54:00 -
[160] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Another suggestion could be that in addition to the removal of clone costs, the jump clone timer could be based on the distance you travel. If for example, you are jump cloning within the exact same system, there's no cooldown timer so you can decide "I'm going on a nullsec roam, and when i come back I can continue to train with my implants in". The further between your jump clones, the longer the timer before you can jump again. +1
|
|
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
135
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:54:00 -
[161] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:...I think the solution to this problem could be found by doing the opposite. Each clone upgrade to the next level should cost x more times what it costs today, then any clone replacement should cost a base fee of 1M isk. We shift the cost structure for the moment of the upgrade and that is it... I like it. |
GreenSeed
292
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:03:00 -
[162] - Quote
as far as feedback, i would say that medical clones need to go away, completely. currently they represent 3 clicks + isk. that's as much gameplay contribution they add. should you forget to set up a medical clone you could lose weeks of training. should you not have the isk to pay, you are stranded (if in hostile space or under wardec) and can't participate in the game anymore until you procure the isk.
not a compelling gameplay mechanic, at all.
as far as ISK sink, its in the wrong place, and there's hardly any way to defend it.
Jump clones as a form of travel are way too powerful, and as form of storing and switching "suits" of implants way too restrictive. i would go as far as saying that the whole clone system needs a rework, not an update, but a scrap and redo.
as an idea i would say:
making implants fit in the pod, instead of in the clone. this way you change the current jumpclone system, from swapping bodies, you swap pods. which you can carry with you, or have them issued by your corp/alliance. with this you also solve the "i cant pvp because i have a full set of +5s" problem, while also allowing said +5 pod to be a destroyable asset. you could even add as gameplay this: should the ship be destroyed before the pod ejects, 50% of the implants die. should the pod eject and get killed, 100% of the implants gone as usual. this would make commitment to a fight an interesting strategic choice.
this would obviously require a profound rebalance of implant costs, but could very well result in an even better and more efficient isk sink than the current medical clone system due to the constant replacing of cheap implants. it would also help feed the "culture of losing assets" that some people seem to lack.
turning the medical clone system on a more dynamic respawning system. you can set a station as home to respawn in should you get podded, just like you do now with medical clones, but at no expense. but you can also have a temporary one, like a carrier, rorqual, titan, etc. this would make reshipping easier, thus increasing the value of logistics in any form of warfare, smallgang, fleet, large scale sov warfare, etc.
and finally, either removing jumpclones as a form of travel completely, of restricting them by adding an ISK cost. or better yet, allowing cheap travel on a very long cooldown, with the option of paying to lower said timer after the jump happens. i can guarantee you, a system like this would quickly become the n1 isk sink in the game and people would not find it unfair as they do with the current clone system. |
Illest Insurrectionist
The Scope Gallente Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:05:00 -
[163] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
Something CCP is becoming more serious about (with Fozzie as one of the major champions) is making 'good' changes NOW even if there's some 'perfect' solution somewhere down the line that might take quite awhile to actually happen.
This is a fantastic shift.
Maybe we'll get some sort of ship paint job stuff while ya'll are on a roll.
Anyhow this still means its 45 mil for a clone even if i want to fly around in a frigate on a main toon. This might be crazy but ever think of having cheaper clones with the max ship size useable? |
Dark HicQuaVideeum
Section 8. Fatal Ascension
108
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:06:00 -
[164] - Quote
just talking here but why not just have it so in low sec clones are affected by fw and dust, so you get a reduction on cost overall in any station in that sector.
and for nullsec have corps that own the stations half or reduce teh cost of clones, the corp or alliance would still need to pay for each clone used so the isk sink will remain but will move from a personal sink to a alliance level sink |
Sharon Tate
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:08:00 -
[165] - Quote
The whole clone costs thing is a dumb mechanic with no clear benefit beyond being a pod loss penalty ISK sink. It's dumb when the cost of your pod excluding implants costs exponentially more than your ship. Clone costs need to be removed altogether. |
valerydarcy
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
24409
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:18:00 -
[166] - Quote
this might sound crazy but you scrubs need to earn some isk "Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him." - Sun Tzu, The Art of Troll
Post with your mainGäó |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
472
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:24:00 -
[167] - Quote
-1
Lower clone costs increase the distance between new players and older ones, thereby limiting interaction which is the core of Eve.
The effects of this wont reveal themselves quickly, but over time new players will find themselves even more shut out and will perhaps just start avoiding all fights with high SP chars. We see this already in most instances where highsec merc corps wardec non PvP oriented corps. Power creep is already to the point that it is limiting PvP.
In terms of the nullsec sov wars, older well established alliances will receive a great boost from this change, further stagnating that theater. Say for instance 2 alliances clash and each loose a 1000 clones, if the older alliances clones cost 20 million more than the newer alliances clones then they have lost an additional 20 billion ISK over the younger corp. This drag efficiently counters the inclination to stagnate. Conversly expensive clone costs encourage Alliances to recruit and train new players even though that may hurt their kill boards.
Also reduced risk and effort may lessen the emotional engagement that Eve PvP creates. This component is perhaps the most significant element of Eve and may be CCP's greatest achievement.
Whatever you decide please keep Eve difficult and scary, I just like it that way =-)
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
valerydarcy
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
24409
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:25:00 -
[168] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote: The effects of this wont reveal themselves quickly, but over time new players will find themselves even more shut out and will perhaps just start avoiding all fights with high SP chars. We see this already in most instances where highsec merc corps wardec non PvP oriented corps. Power creep is already to the point that it is limiting PvP.
lololwut? "Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him." - Sun Tzu, The Art of Troll
Post with your mainGäó |
Tarikan
Battlestars Unclaimed.
11
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:28:00 -
[169] - Quote
one step closer.
So when are we going to do away with learning implants? |
valerydarcy
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
24413
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:34:00 -
[170] - Quote
Tarikan wrote:one step closer.
So when are we going to do away with learning implants?
If you're an RL scrub then typically you dont go through higher education and you end up being a slow learning pleb. Same should apply in EVE. Want faster learny-learn? Mine moar. "Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him." - Sun Tzu, The Art of Troll
Post with your mainGäó |
|
Lord Saradomin
Nex Exercitus Raiden.
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:39:00 -
[171] - Quote
Only thing I've read for this new "expansion" which has made me want to come to the forum and say "yay"
Hurry up and get to fixing Capitals kthxbai! |
Cearain
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
940
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:40:00 -
[172] - Quote
chatgris wrote:X Gallentius wrote:[Proposal] Bubbles don't affect clones.
Discuss. Disclaimer: I hate bubbles, and want nothing to do with them. Bubbles make sense in Nullsec: Nullsec isn't about fighting, it's about territory control. As such, it makes sense to have bubbles trap pods (which I assume is what you meant when you said clones). It's got a nice division: If you want to shoot stuff in spaceships, generally you come to lowsec. If you want to play a more strategic game of risk, you go to nullsec.
What we see happening is people want the bubbles but not the consequences of bubbles.
I agree bubbles holding pods is terrible. I do not think they need to do this in null sec. But it seems few want to admit this.
Instead we see people who want to change the game for everyone else, through proposals to make clones free and banning learning implants etc just so they can keep bubbles holding pods.
I think the real problem is something chatgris already alluded to. The pod mechanics are pretty bad. Spamming warp out is not always even a reliable way to get your pod out in low sec. Its too dependant on lag client settings/hicups and cache and other things that have nothing to do with player skill. This means that people who are cursed with a poor internet connection can't use the more expensive implants and so are at a disadvantage.
I think chatgris has the right idea in that pods should just auto warp out instead of making it dependant on your internet connection etc.
Whether this should happen when you lose a ship to a smartbomber I am not so sure. Certainly if you warp your pod to a smart bomber then you should lose your pod - there has to be some risk.
But rather than just removing all consequences to the game, so people will pvp more, I would like ccp to fix the issues that make it seem like losing a pod is unfair. Yes if all the ships and pods were free more people might pvp, but that is going in the wrong direction.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
473
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:49:00 -
[173] - Quote
valerydarcy wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote: The effects of this wont reveal themselves quickly, but over time new players will find themselves even more shut out and will perhaps just start avoiding all fights with high SP chars. We see this already in most instances where highsec merc corps wardec non PvP oriented corps. Power creep is already to the point that it is limiting PvP.
lololwut?
TLDR : New players want to get into fights and blow stuff up. They currently do pretty poorly partly because of power creep. Lowering clone costs compounds creep which will eventually lead to disengagement with the game.
Fleet tactics should not rely on a material disparity. A well organized, competently lead team needs to win sometimes even if they are outgunned on a SP or ISK level. The reward of Eve should be in working together and engaging. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
iain
The.Fallen Unclaimed.
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:51:00 -
[174] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:[Proposal] Bubbles don't affect clones.
Discuss.
Proposal: Bubbles definately affect pods (clones?!) and should be able to stop all ships, to allow a proper strategic gate camp to succeed and not just have every single son of a ***** covops or (MJD less so) or T3 interdiction nullified ships to just waltz on through.
Lamed up T3s are super terrible in this game, I got one thats nullified, has nanos, stabs, cloaking, ecm, mwd, blah blah blah. I run it through the middle of large gang bubble ganks and just jump backwards and forwards through the camp taking the ****. Because I've seen this done against me when I'm camping enough times so hell, why wouldn't I build an almost guaranteed unstoppable unkillable ship?
Fix bubbles. Dont nerf them further. |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
272
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:52:00 -
[175] - Quote
Ivana Twinkle wrote:I have no problem paying 20 mil for my clone when I die in a battleship. But if i die 10 times in a rifter and get podded each time, it's kinda defeating the purpose of the game. The clone costs is currently a detergent to the sandbox of playing the game you want. Maybe the clone cost could be a funtion of your ships cost (to retain the isk sink) OR just a redution to 1/10th, so a 20 mil clone would costs 2 instead.
a 30% reduction is still expensive.
I love the idea of your clone scaling with your ship loss. The hard part is associating the two. You'd almost be replacing the idea of podding by removing it. That's not great.
Really, you need to satisfy three sides:
- Dead pods: Give a reason to kill pods and cause grief. If it's not worth killing people's pods, just remove them from the game.
- Improve PVP: Make it easier for people to pvp, even if they have skill bonus implants (ick, dump them). Hardwiring people are paying for the bonuses, so obviously would lose hardwirings when they die. Mindlinks, I'm torn on, just because they're grossly undersupplied due to how they're currently being distributed, like Level 4 missions need bonuses like this.
- Isk sink: I have no idea how deep this isk sink is, but I would guess someone could pull that number.
|
Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:53:00 -
[176] - Quote
valerydarcy wrote:this might sound crazy but you scrubs need to earn some isk Would you troll your space poor ally mates? Anyway, nice to know there are sane people in PL too. |
valerydarcy
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
24440
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:55:00 -
[177] - Quote
You know not killing pods can be a tactical decision too. "Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him." - Sun Tzu, The Art of Troll
Post with your mainGäó |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
87
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:55:00 -
[178] - Quote
http://clip2net.com/s/54eKfp There is your problem with clone costs.
If you make static sp/isk rates it would make much more sense and wont penalize older characters that much. I think 7 or 10 sp/isk rate across the board would be nice. |
BARF
STEEL CITY. Tribal Band
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 15:03:00 -
[179] - Quote
After 10 years of eve there is still a thrill of flying a frigate, interceptor or going on that rifter roam... 30% is a start hurry up and finish it off. |
Laveaolous
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 15:18:00 -
[180] - Quote
Cearain wrote: Yes if all the ships and pods were free more people might pvp, but that is going in the wrong direction.
No one that I have seen is advocating free ships, they are after freedom to choose the amount of ISK they risk when they undock, they are saying that having the floor set at 30+m isk + lol isk for the ship on a frigate/cruiser roam is an incentive to go watch TV instead.
The only plus point for high clone costs is that it gives some consequence to the pod express and power projection, apart from that I see none,
Corey Fumimasa wrote:TLDR : New players want to get into fights and blow stuff up. They currently do pretty poorly partly because of power creep. Lowering clone costs compounds creep which will eventually lead to disengagement with the game.
Fleet tactics should not rely on a material disparity. A well organized, competently lead team needs to win sometimes even if they are outgunned on a SP or ISK level. The reward of Eve should be in working together and engaging.
You should be arguing for cheaper clones then. Lower SP players would do better if higher SP players are in smaller more fragile cheap ships surely, at the moment I may as well go for bigger/shinier ship because hell i'm already risking 30+m isk before I pick a ship. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 .. 13 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |