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Sticky:[Odyssey] Clone Costs

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
Roime Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo 2818	Posted - 2013.05.14 23:26:00 - [61] - Quote Lithorn wrote: MeBiatch wrote: chatgris wrote: MeBiatch wrote: Abrazzar wrote: If we remove clones as an ISK sink, what will replace it? i dunno... perhaps pvp... think of all those people who dont pvp that often now... all of a sudden you know playing the pvp game again... While I fully support that more pvp is good, pvp is NOT an ISK sink. If anything PVP is an ISK faucet due to insurance. right tell that to my tech II ships... T3 and faction battleships don't get the insurance love either, many T2 ships get short changed also. So yes, actually the previous dude is wrong it is an ISK sink and a very good one too. If you insure any ship, and it gets destroyed under insurance, more ISK enters the economy than leaves. Only ISK sink related to T2 ships is the T1 ship BPO purchase from NPCs, and related skillbooks (and insurance price). Considering these aren't consumed in the invention and manufacturing process, they are rather insignificant in the whole scene. It doesn't take many pilots receiving insurance payouts for their T2 ships to turn the total on the faucet side. /end of standard faucet explanation #24232321211189 -á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars -
Alty MacAlterson Alt Corporation 0	Posted - 2013.05.14 23:27:00 - [62] - Quote T2 ships don't have enough risk. You should lose skill points in the skill for a T2 ship just like a T3 ship. Make T2 ship skills rank 1 and raise the rank of Cruiser skills.
MeBiatch Republic University Minmatar Republic 982	Posted - 2013.05.14 23:29:00 - [63] - Quote Charlie Jacobson wrote: No, sorry. Isk sinks remove isk from the game. PvP is a mineral sink. But even a low insurance payout is an isk faucet because it creates isk out of thin air. The isk you spend on buying ships go to other players, so apart from the broker's fee and sales tax, it is not removed from the game. ah the difference between macro and micro economics... on a personal (micro) level i dont have the isk anymore so its a sink in my pocket but on a marco level that isk went to someone else so its not gone... perspective is a btich. Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
MeBiatch Republic University Minmatar Republic 983	Posted - 2013.05.14 23:36:00 - [64] - Quote from rise on reddit about isk sinks... Quote: This was something that WAS a concern in the past. However, recent skill book price adjustments more than made up for any damage we could do here in terms of ISK sink, so we can do whatever we want! Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition. 3649	Posted - 2013.05.14 23:38:00 - [65] - Quote CCP Rise - Is there any ideas within CCP what would entail a perfect clone system? Is having clone upgrades function as an ISK sink critical? If so can the sink be moved to another aspect of the game? Flight of a Thousand Rifters III ---- Vengeance ---- Player Event coming May 5th 2013
Ranamar Li3's Electric Cucumber Li3 Federation 7	Posted - 2013.05.14 23:39:00 - [66] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: Charlie Jacobson wrote: No, sorry. Isk sinks remove isk from the game. PvP is a mineral sink. But even a low insurance payout is an isk faucet because it creates isk out of thin air. The isk you spend on buying ships go to other players, so apart from the broker's fee and sales tax, it is not removed from the game. ah the difference between macro and micro economics... on a personal (micro) level i dont have the isk anymore so its a sink in my pocket but on a marco level that isk went to someone else so its not gone... perspective is a btich. It's true. When talking about money sinks and faucets in an MMO, you have to look past your own balance sheet and on to the macro view. Once you've mastered "my income is someone else's expenses", you can move on to "when is a price rise not inflation?" That one's a hard question and people screw it up IRL all the time. FWIW, the actual monetary base increase in this game is apparently less than 50M ISK per player per month. (~25T ISK/mo divided by ~500k players) 25T ISK sounds like a lot, but think about how much crap you have lying around in this game. I was kind of shocked by how small it was when I did the math.
MeBiatch Republic University Minmatar Republic 983	Posted - 2013.05.14 23:42:00 - [67] - Quote Marlona Sky wrote: CCP Rise - Is there any ideas within CCP what would entail a perfect clone system? Is having clone upgrades function as an ISK sink critical? If so can the sink be moved to another aspect of the game? here is just a thought... very basic... ships have crews... crews need money to live and buy feedos... so why not have some sort of cost based system that requires payment for the ships crews to keep the ship active over a certain amount of time... if you dont pay your crews they could mutiny and kick you from your ship... that way you would have the isk sink people are complaining about... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
Ruze Next Stage Initiative Trans-Stellar Industries 239	Posted - 2013.05.14 23:42:00 - [68] - Quote Marlona Sky wrote: CCP Rise - Is there any ideas within CCP what would entail a perfect clone system? Is having clone upgrades function as an ISK sink critical? If so can the sink be moved to another aspect of the game? I'm with this. If the idea is to encourage death, and the cycle of buying new ships and gear, then three things hold up more than any others: Implants Clone Cost Insurance As long as I got plus 5's, my clone costs more than my ship, and even if I insure the ship I only get less than 10% back most times ... That said, if you fix one and two, maybe insurance isn't such a big deal. We can all fly smaller ships, those of us who can't afford to lose capitals left and right. If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality.-á That 'griefer/thief' is probably more sane than you are.-á How screwed up is that?
James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance 5059	Posted - 2013.05.14 23:55:00 - [69] - Quote Gevlin wrote: To encourage PVP but keep the isk sink in place I would recommend a clone subscription option - unlimited clones for so much isk per month. Then Frigate wars here I come. This is exactly how it should be done, IMO. Keep the new costs, then when you get to the rework of clones turn it into a 90 day "subscription". Your clone is up to date for 90 days or until you surpass the SP limit, no matter how many clones you lose over that period of time. Once the subscription period is over you revert to an alpha clone. There are two things that would need to happen however to make this viable: players would require some method of maintaining their clone level if they're unable to dock in a station with a med bay (remotely upgrading them, for example), and making sure players get some notification so, for example, someone who logs into EVE after 3 months of being away undocks without realizing they're in an alpha clone, gets podded, and loses a whole bunch of SP. Alternatively you could just remove clone costs entirely. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel.
Alx Warlord SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Extinction Level Event. 465	Posted - 2013.05.14 23:57:00 - [70] - Quote Indeed... need a lower inclination in this curve. and lower costs to get in PVP with low cost frigates.. Please read these! > New POS system > New SOV system

Ruze Next Stage Initiative Trans-Stellar Industries 241	Posted - 2013.05.15 00:06:00 - [71] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: Gevlin wrote: To encourage PVP but keep the isk sink in place I would recommend a clone subscription option - unlimited clones for so much isk per month. Then Frigate wars here I come. This is exactly how it should be done, IMO. Keep the new costs, then when you get to the rework of clones turn it into a 90 day "subscription". Your clone is up to date for 90 days or until you surpass the SP limit, no matter how many clones you lose over that period of time. Once the subscription period is over you revert to an alpha clone. There are two things that would need to happen however to make this viable: players would require some method of maintaining their clone level if they're unable to dock in a station with a med bay (remotely upgrading them, for example), and making sure players get some notification so, for example, someone who logs into EVE after 3 months of being away undocks without realizing they're in an alpha clone, gets podded, and loses a whole bunch of SP. Alternatively you could just remove clone costs entirely. So basically, pay the new clone cost, and die as much as you want for 30 - 90 days. I like that. If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality.-á That 'griefer/thief' is probably more sane than you are.-á How screwed up is that?
Alex Salas Macabre Votum Northern Coalition. 0	Posted - 2013.05.15 00:12:00 - [72] - Quote At long last, a change that I fully support CCP on. Bitter vets of New Eden, REJOICE!
Inna Cristiana The Black Talons Chapter Company of Spacefarers 10	Posted - 2013.05.15 00:14:00 - [73] - Quote If you're gonna remove an ISK sink you better add it somewhere else, that's how you "balance" an economy.
Naxy Antollare IronPig Sev3rance 1	Posted - 2013.05.15 00:21:00 - [74] - Quote I`m sad when i see this type of forums around EVE .. ppl crying about clone price as they get more skill points . Having over 100mil Sp and go around in frigs that cost 1 mill.. how funny .. if your so keen on flying those rifters you should just play on 14 days trial , i bet that would shut you up .. EVE is harsh and we like it like that , don`t make EVE go same direction as WoW ..
Ruze Next Stage Initiative Trans-Stellar Industries 242	Posted - 2013.05.15 00:26:00 - [75] - Quote Naxy Antollare wrote: I`m sad when i see this type of forums around EVE .. ppl crying about clone price as they get more skill points . Having over 100mil Sp and go around in frigs that cost 1 mill.. how funny .. if your so keen on flying those rifters you should just play on 14 days trial , i bet that would shut you up .. EVE is harsh and we like it like that , don`t make EVE go same direction as WoW .. Aye, you're cool. Please tell me you also are against afk cloakers and have made posts about hisec griefers, because if so, I'm going to subscribe to your blog. On a related note, clone prices may not be worth crying about. But they sure are annoying, and like it or not, they influence older players choice on whether they are going to risk dying today or not. I might not feel like crying, but if CCP deems them out of date ... well, I ain't gonna ***** about it, either. If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality.-á That 'griefer/thief' is probably more sane than you are.-á How screwed up is that?
Tasha Saisima State War Academy Caldari State 24	Posted - 2013.05.15 00:51:00 - [76] - Quote I think clones should still cost a bit. What fun is flying if there is no risk?
Michael Turate The Scope Gallente Federation 60	Posted - 2013.05.15 01:01:00 - [77] - Quote Good move! I'd like to see clone costs done away with all together. I had an idea for a new replacement isk sink and also to help curb pod killing as a travel method:- A system of 'Concord Pod Travel Gates', Concord controlled toll gates that only allow pod travel, connecting 5 or 6 of the biggest regional trade hubs with 10-15 lo-sec entry and null sec entry systems. An individual pays a monthly isk fee to use the network, a corporation can pay plex/isk for all its members to use the network. Lo-sec and null sec dwellers will have easier/quicker access to high sec space and high sec corps that enjoy PVP in null and lo sec will be able to travel quickly to an entry point system, gear and ship up and then depart. Traders all have alts in the different regions so it doesn't really impact that, and it should create trade in entry systems, it eats some isk/plex and may help prevent people blowing their pods up to clone travel.
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition. 3653	Posted - 2013.05.15 01:07:00 - [78] - Quote Naxy Antollare wrote: I`m sad when i see this type of forums around EVE .. ppl crying about clone price as they get more skill points . Having over 100mil Sp and go around in frigs that cost 1 mill.. how funny .. if your so keen on flying those rifters you should just play on 14 days trial , i bet that would shut you up .. EVE is harsh and we like it like that , don`t make EVE go same direction as WoW .. Come back to the thread when you understand the concept of The Big Picture and realize the game would be more harsh with the removal of clone costs. Flight of a Thousand Rifters III ---- Vengeance ---- Player Event coming May 5th 2013
James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance 5061	Posted - 2013.05.15 01:10:00 - [79] - Quote Ruze wrote: So basically, pay the new clone cost, and die as much as you want for 30 - 90 days. I like that. I like it too, but it has its own problems, particularly for supercapital pilots, people who live in w-space, and people who go unsubscribed. I suppose you could also have a mechanic that allows you to pay some multiple of ISK for that multiple of subscription time. e.g. 14m isk insures 92.5m SP for 90 days, so 28m isk would insure 92.5m SP for 180 days, 56m isk for 360 days, etc. The supercap and w-space problem could easily be fixed by allowing people to update their clones from the Character Sheet without ever having to be docked. I don't really get why being docked in a med clone station is a requirement. Of course changing your med clone station or creating a jump clone should require use of a station. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel.
Madlof Chev Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 141	Posted - 2013.05.15 01:11:00 - [80] - Quote ccp rise literally jesus I would shake your hand again if i could go back three weeks or so to fanfest.

Ruze Next Stage Initiative Trans-Stellar Industries 242	Posted - 2013.05.15 01:41:00 - [81] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: Ruze wrote: So basically, pay the new clone cost, and die as much as you want for 30 - 90 days. I like that. I like it too, but it has its own problems, particularly for supercapital pilots, people who live in w-space, and people who go unsubscribed. I suppose you could also have a mechanic that allows you to pay some multiple of ISK for that multiple of subscription time. e.g. 14m isk insures 92.5m SP for 90 days, so 28m isk would insure 92.5m SP for 180 days, 56m isk for 360 days, etc. The supercap and w-space problem could easily be fixed by allowing people to update their clones from the Character Sheet without ever having to be docked. I don't really get why being docked in a med clone station is a requirement. Of course changing your med clone station or creating a jump clone should require use of a station. That's a fair point. Unless we are going to turn clones into a commodity that players can sell on the market and produce, there's no real issue with having players update their clone remotely. Hell, just let them 'call it in' from in game. "Hey, bro? Yeah, give me one of those new clones, I've gotten smarter. Thanks, k, bye." If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality.-á That 'griefer/thief' is probably more sane than you are.-á How screwed up is that?
Crestor Markham Reasonable People Of Sound Mind 1	Posted - 2013.05.15 01:55:00 - [82] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: Abrazzar wrote: If we remove clones as an ISK sink, what will replace it? i dunno... perhaps pvp... think of all those people who dont pvp that often now... all of a sudden you know playing the pvp game again... PVP is an isk source, via insurance. Learn what it means for something to be an isk sink/source.
Johan Toralen Clockwork X3 13	Posted - 2013.05.15 01:56:00 - [83] - Quote Welcome change. In my book the prices should be reduced even more. Just make it a flat price from say 50m sp onwards. With a high sp char you never use all the skills in say a pvp situation. From a certain point an old char can't have a technical advantage over say a fully skilled younger pvp char. So why punish the older player for having stuck around in Eve for so long. Sure it most likely wont kill him financialy but its about the principle. And i'm sure many players also keep economical thinking in the back of their head even if they could afford to lose a couple pods here and there.
Crestor Markham Reasonable People Of Sound Mind 1	Posted - 2013.05.15 02:00:00 - [84] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: Charlie Jacobson wrote: No, sorry. Isk sinks remove isk from the game. PvP is a mineral sink. But even a low insurance payout is an isk faucet because it creates isk out of thin air. The isk you spend on buying ships go to other players, so apart from the broker's fee and sales tax, it is not removed from the game. ah the difference between macro and micro economics... on a personal (micro) level i dont have the isk anymore so its a sink in my pocket but on a marco level that isk went to someone else so its not gone... perspective is a btich. This is not a matter of perspective. And you apparently also don't know what macro and microeconomics are any more than you do isk sinks and sources. PVP is an _asset_ sink for you, or to bring it back to building blocks, it's a mineral sink. That ship could've been reprocessed into minerals, but when blown up it can't be any more. Minerals went poof, isk did not. Indeed, you have an evemail waiting from pend insurance... even on the personal scale, you have lost minerals into thin air and gotten isk from thin air. If you go trade some of your isk for some minerals (possibly in the form of a ship!), that's a transaction that neither creates nor destroys minerals or isk, outside of the transaction tax/order fee.
Ryuu Shi School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 39	Posted - 2013.05.15 02:22:00 - [85] - Quote Hey CCP Rise why not keep the current pricing for the clones as they are now with the 30% discount and make it like it is in dust514 with their mass bulk buying with the clones. For example: 72mill SP clone upgrade gets you 5 'insured' bodies to play around with in the targeted station (which can't be transferred other stations). You can play around with the number of 'insured' bodies vs level of SP the current character has so it won't be as over powered. Of course the numbers can be tweaked a little. This combined with maxed skills in informorph Psychology they can place 5 clones bodies anywhere in New Eden with a backed up 'insured' X amount of bodies per insured level to pvp in. Over all people pay X isk for X 'insured' bodies to pvp for the current clone system = happier people pew pewing each other. Or something like that. Ganking miners has gone too far. Ganking is wrong, and bad. There should be a new, stronger word for Ganking like badwrong or badong. Yes, Ganking is badong. From this moment, I will stand for the opposite of Ganking, gnodab. - Said no-one, ever.
Rabbit P Ministry of War Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2013.05.15 02:25:00 - [86] - Quote will we have a dev blog talking about clone before odyssey release?
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Initiative 3514	Posted - 2013.05.15 03:28:00 - [87] - Quote I approve, though I think I'd rather see the clone system go away entirely. There's nothing quite like losing SP to make people epic ragequit. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Bi-Mi Lansatha The Scope Gallente Federation 130	Posted - 2013.05.15 03:33:00 - [88] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: ... Our hope is that through this first step we will be able to establish what (if any) effect clone prices have on player behavior... If you find no significant EvE wide change in behavior, will you set the costs back? If the goal and what is accomplish is great player freedom to PvP, then great. If the result is simply some save ISK, somewhat more questionable.
Bi-Mi Lansatha The Scope Gallente Federation 130	Posted - 2013.05.15 03:33:00 - [89] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: I approve, though I think I'd rather see the clone system go away entirely. There's nothing quite like losing SP to make people epic ragequit. -Liang
Wrayeth Inexorable Retribution 80	Posted - 2013.05.15 03:46:00 - [90] - Quote WOOT! I no longer have to blow 50 mil every time I need a new clone. 30 mil's still a lot for a clone and will continue to discourage the reckless PvPing I used to do in my younger days, but nowhere near as much as the current 50. I may actually undock now...



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