| Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 .. 13 :: one page |
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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Hesod Adee
Meltdown.
2
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Posted - 2013.05.15 09:42:00 -
[121] - Quote
Roime wrote:Rangloff wrote:CAN I GET A HALLELUIAH! Yes, you can. Let's analyze your case for a moment. Your problem is that you don't like the 45mil ISK loss resulting from the loss of your clone, and that puts you off from PVPing with that high-SP character. You have solved the problem by creating a lower SP alt. Results: + you get to PVP + others get to PVP with your alt + CCP got another account
You forgot two big points.
- you spend months retraining the core ship skills.
- A few years later you spend another few months retraining the same core ship skills. |
Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group
37
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 10:07:00 -
[122] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Honestly, what is the worst thing that could happen if you 100% remove the clone upgrade cost and put the location of our respawn when we are podded on a 24 hour cooldown timer so that can't be abused. Seriously, what is the worst that will happen??
The entire player base has fun?
You see, when high-SP and low-SP players are dueling for example, it's obvious that a newer player is in disadvantage - his tank is weaker, guns miss often etc. This is a bit "compensated" by higher clone costs for a veteran if he manages to loose the fight.
Also, EVE is a sandbox and economy should interfere with PVP. You may have heard that miners, manufacturers and other "carebears" are despised by the ilitist breed. Removing clone costs would emphasize that attitude even futher.
And no, the fun is there only when stakes are high.
Did I answer your question? |
Laveaolous
Paragon Fury
Tactical Narcotics Team
16
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Posted - 2013.05.15 10:15:00 -
[123] - Quote
The upcoming changes in battlecruiser and destroyer skills will put me over a clone limit (I had stopped training at that SP level because of clone costs), while welcome this change merely makes my clones 1m more expensive instead of 10m more as it was soon to become.
I am a big fan of choosing your own risk exposure in EVE, you can choose your ship you can choose your implants but I don't want to have to choose from a stable of PVP characters (this ain't Pokemon) I don't want an alt for frigate roams, another for battlecruiser roams and my main for battleships and up, I have enough alts already for capitals and industry and trade and there are only so many times you can go through training core skills.
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Laveaolous
Paragon Fury
Tactical Narcotics Team
16
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Posted - 2013.05.15 10:23:00 -
[124] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote: You see, when high-SP and low-SP players are dueling for example, it's obvious that a newer player is in disadvantage - his tank is weaker, guns miss often etc. This is a bit "compensated" by higher clone costs for a veteran if he manages to loose the fight.
Also, EVE is a sandbox and economy should interfere with PVP. You may have heard that miners, manufacturers and other "carebears" are despised by the ilitist breed. Removing clone costs would emphasize that attitude even futher.
And no, the fun is there only when stakes are high.
Did I answer your question?
Dueling, your argument is dueling! Are you kidding? If you think Eve is about 2 players sitting in identical ships where skill points are all and everything you have not been paying attention.
High SP for most players means expanded choice of ships, once you are good in one ship you move on and the hyperthetical extra 2% advantage for 30 days training to become perfect gets laughed at and ignored. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA
C0VEN
102
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Posted - 2013.05.15 10:26:00 -
[125] - Quote
1. Please cap the clone upgrade cost at the 5mil.
To compensate the isk sink at the same time increase the isk price of all implants in the LP stores.
This way a 8yo char can have good fun fighting in frigates with minimum implant clone.
2. From the implant perspective - if this 8yo char dies in 3bil implant set this extra 50mil for clone upgrade will be not big issue - and it could be moved to the base price of the implants in the LP Store.
3. Consider additional isk sink / feature - clone changing.
If you have a clone on the station you are currently docked - you can "change" clones without any delay.
Still this will cost you 5 mil - first time in 24h, and 10mil if time from last change is <24h.
4. Add 5 additional clones if you get skill connected to lvl 5.
This will allow people to have more fancy clones they can loose.
This simple changes will make a loot of people happy - allow them to do more aggressive pvp, and remove tons of isk from the game.
As your Customers - we thank you - CCP.
[1/17/2013 11:21:16 AM] seleene_ge: I don't even understand why CCP has a forum. No one at CCP reads it. <---- True Story. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years
Shinjiketo
2824
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 10:30:00 -
[126] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:
You see, when high-SP and low-SP players are dueling for example, it's obvious that a newer player is in disadvantage - his tank is weaker, guns miss often etc. This is a bit "compensated" by higher clone costs for a veteran if he manages to loose the fight.
Also, EVE is a sandbox and economy should interfere with PVP. You may have heard that miners, manufacturers and other "carebears" are despised by the ilitist breed. Removing clone costs would emphasize that attitude even futher.
And no, the fun is there only when stakes are high.
Did I answer your question?
Your example only highlights the undeniable argument for removing higher clone costs for older players. If the new player has planned his skills well, he can have exactly the same amount of relevant SP to the ships flown in the duel as the older player.
There is a hard cap on the advantage from character skills in any given ship. Older players can have max skills in numerous other ships as well, but they don't help one bit in your duel example.
Only player skills will help.
I still lol at people who whine about 40mil clone costs, but they do have a valid point about the costs being not really worth keeping as they are.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Faith Parkour
Incompertus INC
Fatal Ascension
0
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Posted - 2013.05.15 10:44:00 -
[127] - Quote
How about an escalating clone cost with a cool-down? Lets say 24 hour cool down. Your first clone is free, if you die again within the 24 hour period it steps up and restarts the cool-down. You die again, within 24 hours, it steps up again.. and again up to the max for your clone level. If you dont die for 24 hours, the costs reset back to 0.
This will stop people from abusing the free clones system for travelling extremely long distances over and over in short period of time while still allowing you to have a few cheap throw away pods per day to go frigate roaming in 0.0 |
Kossaw
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
62
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 10:46:00 -
[128] - Quote
Great start, but Im still not puting a 120m SP character into an interdictor. And don't bother telling me to train another account -CCP already get enough of my ISK for the accounts I already have.
WTB : An image in my signature |
Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group
37
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Posted - 2013.05.15 10:51:00 -
[129] - Quote
Roime wrote:There is a hard cap on the advantage from character skills in any given ship.
Which is pretty high. While not that high for frigates, I should agree, but still quite a lot. Me, for example, still dont have good navigation skills while I'm well above 40 mil SP, gunnery is not too strong as well, drones sux, armor tank could be better. And almost zero in leadership - it's not applicable for duels, but deuling was just an example.
Roime wrote:Older players can have max skills in numerous other ships as well, but they don't help one bit in your duel example.
So they can fly a mining barge maybe? Did you read my words after "dueling"? Older players have more possibilities to make ISK, and if they choose not to do that - they should suffer. Sandbox and stuff. |
Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group
37
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Posted - 2013.05.15 10:56:00 -
[130] - Quote
Kossaw wrote:Great start, but Im still not puting a 120m SP character into an interdictor.
Technetium nerf did hit you very hard I see... Poor you, accept my condolence. |
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Gabriel Baum
Baum Shipyards
Panda Cave
6
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Posted - 2013.05.15 10:56:00 -
[131] - Quote
Thank god! (Amarrian of course) About ******* time!  |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1736
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 11:08:00 -
[132] - Quote
To prevent misuse of clone subscription for travelling, other than a cooldown timer, changing the location of your medical clone could come with a installation cost. Maybe even combine it that you can change the clone location once per 24 hours for free.
Not sure if it was already said like that, probably just repeating things.
Really, the more the clone contract subscription is talked about, the more I like it.
Sovereignty and Population
New Mining Mechanics |
nStedt
1st Furtive
The Culture.
3
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Posted - 2013.05.15 11:28:00 -
[133] - Quote
A step in the right direction CCP. My clone still cost 21mill after the reduction though. Please lower price even more.
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Roime
Ten Thousand Years
Shinjiketo
2826
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Posted - 2013.05.15 11:32:00 -
[134] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:
Which is pretty high. While not that high for frigates, I should agree, but still quite a lot. Me, for example, still dont have good navigation skills while I'm well above 40 mil SP, gunnery is not too strong as well, drones sux, armor tank could be better. And almost zero in leadership - it's not applicable for duels, but deuling was just an example.
I'm not denying that the older player having Controlled Bursts V versus younger playing having it at only IV couldn't dictate the outcome the fight, but I can imagine more than few scenarios where having that advantage means absolutely **** all nothing.
I fleets the total amount of individual pilots SP means even less.
Quote:
So they can fly a mining barge maybe? Did you read my words after "dueling"? Older players have more possibilities to make ISK, and if they choose not to do that - they should suffer. Sandbox and stuff.
Income making has very little to do with SP, and more with time and effort spent. Most of my income is made with a 800K SP trade alt, and her zero-training colleagues.
Player age and connections create career possibilities, but SP does not equate player age in game. I see your point about clone costs as a balancing factor, and used to think like that too...
but in the end there's a simple truth in EVE- the more you play, the less time and effort you are interested putting into ISK-making, since the most fun thing you can do in game is the good old ultraviolence.
Older players shouldn't be forced to grind more just for having more SP. Forcing people into PVE, even indirectly, is against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group
37
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Posted - 2013.05.15 11:32:00 -
[135] - Quote
nStedt wrote:A step in the right direction CCP. My clone still cost 21mill after the reduction though. Please lower price even more.
Do you know at least why those fees were introduced? |
Laveaolous
Paragon Fury
Tactical Narcotics Team
16
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Posted - 2013.05.15 11:36:00 -
[136] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:nStedt wrote:A step in the right direction CCP. My clone still cost 21mill after the reduction though. Please lower price even more.
Do you know at least why those fees were introduced?
Not as a disincentive to PVP, which is what it is. It is also a poor ISK sink if people avoid PVP or roll with low sp alts to avoid paying it |
Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group
37
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Posted - 2013.05.15 11:51:00 -
[137] - Quote
Roime wrote:Older players shouldn't be forced to grind more just for having more SP. Forcing people into PVE, even indirectly, is against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
There are a lot of other ways to make ISK other than grinding. You know why do I laugh at that whiners from PL? Because they make **** ton of ISK doing true old school blob nullsec sov PVP [but for some reason they dont want to spend it for nothing other than buying more titans]. Some goons gank freighters. Some take ransom for not bumping miners. Some excel in market speculations. EVE is a sandbox, I'm telling it the 3rd time today.
Roime wrote:but in the end there's a simple truth in EVE- the more you play, the less time and effort you are interested putting into ISK-making, since the most fun thing you can do in game is the good old ultraviolence.
You would be surprised maybe with my answer, but - yes of course we need a POS revamp!
Seriously, when was the last time industry was looked at by developers? Indeed it's quite outdated part of EVE, but I dont want it to die. I want it to thrive instead, and I want to be engaged in it rather than your ultraviolence. And I know quite a few people that love the industry part too, so it's not only me. |
Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group
37
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 11:57:00 -
[138] - Quote
Laveaolous wrote:Not as a disincentive to PVP, which is what it is.
I laugh at people who say "ban suicide gankers, I want a safe place to mine".
I laugh at people who say "free ships and clones for everyone, I dont want to mess with isk making".
Guess why? Because it's sandbox.
Jeez, 4th time in row I have to mention this! |
Laveaolous
Paragon Fury
Tactical Narcotics Team
16
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Posted - 2013.05.15 12:13:00 -
[139] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:Laveaolous wrote:Not as a disincentive to PVP, which is what it is. I laugh at people who say "ban suicide gankers, I want a safe place to mine". I laugh at people who say "free ships and clones for everyone, I dont want to mess with isk making". Guess why? Because it's sandbox. Jeez, 4th time in row I have to mention this!
Now you're just trolling. There is nothing sandbox about taxing a player out of cheap ships and fun fights it is the exact opposite. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
854
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Posted - 2013.05.15 12:14:00 -
[140] - Quote
This is a good start. Reduce clone costs to 0, add 5 to each attribute, and remove learning implants. That will remove the pvp disincentives. To compensate for the sink put out some cool new implants and increase market fees.
This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
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Cromzor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.05.15 12:17:00 -
[141] - Quote
Please remove learning implants (give everyone the equivalent of +5s). If isk sinks are needed to counteract that, do whatever. Learning implants are the only reason I dont pvp. |
Fifth Blade
Estrale Frontiers
Project Wildfire
7
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Posted - 2013.05.15 12:23:00 -
[142] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:CCP Rise - Why did you not remove them completely? I'm with you. We talked about it a lot here, and we all would rather make this system better than strip it out completely. I know this is a careful first step, but trust me, we want to do more with it and this is a way for us to act in a more informed way when we are able to more, and in the mean time it eases the pain a bit for you guys.
If you are considering removing clone costs altogether. Consider removing the necessity to buy them too. If they are free, upgrading clones would simply be busywork.
For a (minor) isk sink instead, consider adding a charge to set a new medical clone default location.
I would suspect you would not lose any of the isk sink doing this (as high SP characters avoid losing clones as much as possible currently). While also making it convenient for people to change clone location.
Win / Win |
xxArchangelxx
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
15
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Posted - 2013.05.15 12:32:00 -
[143] - Quote
I never understood why we are penalized with higher clone costs for being loyal and long terms (and paying) clients of a great game.
Shelling out 30M in a frig / cruiser roam for a clone blows.
Remove the ISK sink all together. |
Clone Reaper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 12:37:00 -
[144] - Quote
Having the option to store more than one clone in a station and being able to swap between them without triggering the 24hr clone jump countdown would be a very useful improvement.
Ths would be especially useful for characters that have clones with different mindlinks or weapon/tank specific implants plugged in. |
Uranium 242
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32
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Posted - 2013.05.15 12:39:00 -
[145] - Quote
Death to clone costs, death to learning implants. Make more interesting hardwirings. Make boosters legal in empire.
Problem solved. |
Evelina Rakovic
Warmongers.
The Warmongers
12
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Posted - 2013.05.15 12:49:00 -
[146] - Quote
Most important:
if your clone have less sp than your current clone must be a special advise like "you forget to upgrade clone" before your try to undock. |
Skia Aumer
Atlas Research Group
37
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Posted - 2013.05.15 12:54:00 -
[147] - Quote
Laveaolous wrote:Now you're just trolling. There is nothing sandbox about taxing a player out of cheap ships and fun fights it is the exact opposite.
I'm not trolling, may be just you dont want / cannot understand my arguments.
I'll try it again but you better read it carefully.
1. New players have disadvantage on field. Older players have disadvantage when upgrading clones. It's not about sandbox, it's just fair.
2. Suppose you have free clones, free ships, alright. How many fun roams would you need to understand that when you dont risk anything - it's not fun at all? It's not about sandbox as well, it's just common sense.
3. Now when a player finds out "omg, I need to earn isk somehow" - that's when he starts to interact with the sandbox. When you have isk, you just go to the market and buy ship, mods etc. But when you need isk - you have to sell something yourself, but you need to acquire it first of all. How? Numerous ways. Mine, explore, build, steal, you name it. Suddenly, the world of EVE is not just a bunch of random people who are targets to shoot. It's a way more complicated and interesting world. But you only see it when you need isk. |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
135
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Posted - 2013.05.15 13:07:00 -
[148] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:This is a good start. Reduce clone costs to 0, add 5 to each attribute, and remove learning implants. That will remove the pvp disincentives. To compensate for the sink put out some cool new implants and increase market fees. That would not be bad actually, but how soon before some complain about the cost of their implants being lost?
I support this change if it allows greater PvP.
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valerydarcy
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
24374
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:10:00 -
[149] - Quote
Now how about giving 1x free clone upgrade to all of us who are going to be forced to pay upward of 30mil for a new clone when you gift us 8m sp which give no benefit. o7gf
"Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him." - Sun Tzu, The Art of Troll
Post with your mainGäó |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
281
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Posted - 2013.05.15 13:12:00 -
[150] - Quote
Clone costs are a rather redundant balancing tool for younger less skilled players versus older broader skilled players.
As an 'old' character with 125M+ skillpoints, clone costs are incredibly prohibitive even after this reduction on my playstyle since I have for the last few years mostly been involved with Gallente Faction Warfare.
In FW the most common ships flown are frigates, destroyers and cruisers and for me my base clone cost is actually normally at least 4 or 5 times the cost of a fitted cruiser.
This makes PVP (which is all I actually like to do) completely cost ineffective in these smaller ships because :
i) Pod losses often happen due to lag etc anyway
ii) Enemies are more often (compared to other areas of PVP) flying the fastest scan resolution ships ie: frigates/ sensor boosted destroyers etc
iii) It takes much more loot gained from killing enemies to even cover the loss of one pod
I am also put off pvping in nullsec for exactly this same reason. Certain ships like the Interdictor that I love flying are basically a huge loss making coffin for older higher skilled characters like myself.
My perception is I find it rather distasteful that in order to cost effectively fly these smaller ships I'd need to train up a low skillpoint alt, and so am effectively being penalised for being a loyal customer/player by not being able to fly all the ships I've trained for on a par with some newer player.
The re-balancing of ships has generally been a success from what I can tell with regards making more ships useful, accessible and quicker to specialise for, however the incongruity of clone loss still makes flying a lot of these ships a penalty for some like me.
10 years of Eve means you have a lot of older skilled characters out there so clone costs would be better set at some flat rate in my opinion, so this reduction is a welcome start, but does not rectify this outdated mechanic.
Eve is now a mature MMO - I'm sure the demographics see a wide range of character ages/skillpoint players playing the game - most ships can be specifically trained to a near maximum within 6 months and in PVP I generally assume everyone I fight will be maximum skilled and this holds true for the majority of PVP.
The idea that one character has a massive advantage in PVP over another due to character age is now completely flawed and the clone cost mechanic was there to support that for the immature Eve. It is time to remove that poor legacy mechanic of increasing clone cost IMHO now Eve has reached maturity.
Thats my feedback. Cheers. |
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