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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 46 post(s) |
I'm Down
Macabre Votum Northern Coalition.
194
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Posted - 2013.08.01 17:21:00 -
[211] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Entity wrote:So, Astarte getting a massive damage nerf?
The damage/rof changes do not offset the 29% reduced damage from losing 2 turrets, and adding 2 completely unbonused launchers isn't that particularly appealing.
It's going from 10.9 effective turrets to 10. However I expect the two utility highs, lower mass and extra resists to more than compensate.
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Goldensaver
ArTech Expeditions
207
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 17:23:00 -
[212] - Quote
Heribeck Weathers wrote:Goldensaver wrote:Lilan Kahn wrote:slepnir also taking massive dps nerf Barely. less than one whole turret. That's less than a 4% DPS nerf, with so much more utility. Sleps getting a 100% damage bonus to 5 guns, that = 10 guns worth of damage, thats more than 1.5 turets worth of damage lost. Learn to math, dumbass. I have no patience for people who refuse to people who have explained that mathematically it loses almost nothing.
So, just for you: New Sleipnir: 10% bonus to damage 10% bonus to damage 5 turrets
5 * 1.5 * 1.5 = 11.25
(in case you didn't know, those two are separate bonuses that stack multiplicatively on each other. Just let me know if you need any help actually understanding what "stacking multiplicatively" means)
Old Sleipnir: 5% bonus to damage 5% bonus to RoF 7 turrets
7 * 1.25 / .75 = 11.6 (repeating)
(Again, the two SEPARATE bonuses stack on each other.)
New Sleipnir vs Old Sleipnir
11.25/11.666666666 = .9643 etc. Meaning that the new Sleipnir gets over 96% as much DPS as the old one.
Less than a 4% dps nerf.
Get it now?
Or do you still disbelieve the math? |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
335
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 17:24:00 -
[213] - Quote
Heribeck Weathers wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Heribeck Weathers wrote:Goldensaver wrote:Lilan Kahn wrote:slepnir also taking massive dps nerf Barely. less than one whole turret. That's less than a 4% DPS nerf, with so much more utility. Sleps getting a 100% damage bonus to 5 guns, that = 10 guns worth of damage, thats more than 1.5 turets worth of damage lost. You're exceptionall bad. The suggested sleipnir does too much damage, it has more effective weapons than any other CS for some reason, when actually they should probably all be more or less the same. I think you are the bad one here good sir, not only is the slep taking a huge damage nerf guns but also drones, but it also dosent do any more damage than most CS, the Claymore is getting 10 effective missles and 5 med drones. the Astarte and Eos will also be able to keep up in dps quite easily. Tho i do think the Abso and Vulture could use some love.
So bad.
Also I like how your complaint is that the sleipnir isn't better than everything else (it still is ofc). |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2193
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Posted - 2013.08.01 17:24:00 -
[214] - Quote
Aeril Malkyre wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Sarmatiko wrote:Also glad that Marauders are safe, for now.. /Maniacal Laugh You madman. Don't hurt my Vargur.
He won't, you have my word.
*Quickly hides the half-dissected Vargur lying next to the Frenchman and replaces it with a half-eaten baguette* |
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glepp
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
100
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Posted - 2013.08.01 17:24:00 -
[215] - Quote
Tuxedo Catfish wrote:Michael J Caboose wrote:Hortoken Wolfbrother wrote:I also echo elendar's concerns. The minmatar/gallente ships are too vulnerable for large fleet fights. Not having natural resists or EHP to match up to their companions means they start off already incredibly hobbled.
It'd be nice to see one ship for each race left intact as an active brawler, but the other ship get a bit of love to make it tougher. Why do caldari and amarr get a monopoly on these bonuses, when they are far far far far far better for large gang situations. You have two commands for each race, so it makes sense to have one designed around small gangs and one designed for larger fleets. In the case of minmatar, you could leave the claymore with its active bonus, and give the sleip a strong passive tanking bonus.
Thats my only complaint, but the ships are pretty good otherwise. No. The mimatar/gallente command ships get a very powerful bonus to skirmish links. In exchange, they are more fragile. Less useful in fleets, but good in gangs. The amarr/caldari command ships get a very powerful bonus to EHP. In exchange, they get a bonus to the crappy info warfare links that are seldom even used. Seems fair. Give the minmatar/gallente EHP bonuses, and no one will ever use amarr or caldari command ships. That's actually a pretty good answer. I reiterate my first two questions, though. No, local reps are wasted as soon as incoming dps > 1k, which means any gang > 1 Attack BC, really.
So this either means that gallente CS won't be using one of their boni, or that armor gangs will never get bonused skirmish links. The minnie ships could compensate if they were faster (ie Attack BC speeds), but the Eos/Astarte are way too big/sluggish to sig/speed tank. Bye bye DP HAC armor fleets, it was fun while it lasted.
Give the Gallente CS a tad more speed and swap local rep bonus on at least one for a hitpoint (not resist) bonus to allow it some more time to catch reps, please.
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Hortoken Wolfbrother
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
21
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Posted - 2013.08.01 17:24:00 -
[216] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:Or do you still disbelieve the math?
You can probably feel the wind as someone prepared to dunk on you. |
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
55
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Posted - 2013.08.01 17:26:00 -
[217] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Heribeck Weathers wrote:Goldensaver wrote:Lilan Kahn wrote:slepnir also taking massive dps nerf Barely. less than one whole turret. That's less than a 4% DPS nerf, with so much more utility. Sleps getting a 100% damage bonus to 5 guns, that = 10 guns worth of damage, thats more than 1.5 turets worth of damage lost. That's not how damage bonuses work good sir. It's 11.25 effective turrets after this proposal.
Ahh I see now how "CCP math" works (bonuses should be a set number not stack on top of eachother, its extreamly misleading) , you guys really should add a tutorial to the game all about mosual and bonuses stacking. |
Gareth Burns
Reclamator's KRYSIS.
22
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Posted - 2013.08.01 17:26:00 -
[218] - Quote
OK!
You've done HACs & Command Ships...
Where are my Marauders!
on the upside it looks like both HACs and Command Ships got a good bonus to Sensor Strength... which is one of the big points that need to be changed on Marauders. Noblesse Oblige Gû¦ Gareth Burns |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4429
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 17:27:00 -
[219] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Doddy wrote:Tobias Hareka wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Each race should have one command ship that has a bonus to local reps and one that has a passive tank bonus! Rather not. Amarr is quite bad at passive tanking because lack of med slots required for shield tanking. And you can't passive tank a armor tanker. I don't think you get passive tanking. Passive tanking = no repair, so any armour buffer tank is passive tanking. Amarr is by far the best race at passive tanking. I think you are thinking of shield "passive" tanking which relies on shield regen. Whether it is actually passive tanking depends on how you define passive. The shield is regening, so its certainly not fully passive, but the player is not controlling it so it is passive on the pilots part. Armor doesn't regen, so if you passive tank armor you're done after one fight, win or lose. You have to go back to a friendly station to repair, and that could be far away. If you passive tank shield you can survive in enemy space forever and keep killing until someone finally beats you. Jesus.
Stop confusing buffer tanking with passive tanking.
You also need to realize that buffer tanks are extremely effective on the right ship, but someone in your gang needs to have remote repair (preferably a logistics of some sort, even a logistics frigate will do) for in between fight repair work. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ariesen Serenity
SRE Brotherhood
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 17:27:00 -
[220] - Quote
But the Sleip is also losing 15 drone bandwidth. So that's a small dps downgrade also (added in to the 96%) |
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Goldensaver
ArTech Expeditions
207
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Posted - 2013.08.01 17:27:00 -
[221] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Heribeck Weathers wrote:Goldensaver wrote:Lilan Kahn wrote:slepnir also taking massive dps nerf Barely. less than one whole turret. That's less than a 4% DPS nerf, with so much more utility. Sleps getting a 100% damage bonus to 5 guns, that = 10 guns worth of damage, thats more than 1.5 turets worth of damage lost. That's not how damage bonuses work good sir. It's 11.25 effective turrets after this proposal.
I would like to ask if that is the best choice completely, considering it will have the largest alpha of any medium weapon ship. I'm just concerned about the double damage bonuses. Would you perhaps consider changing one to RoF?
I know you're in balancing, I know you probably know better than me. I just want to raise my concerns about that much alpha strike. I know it's not large arty levels of damage, but it also isn't large arty levels of tracking. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
336
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Posted - 2013.08.01 17:28:00 -
[222] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Xequecal wrote:Doddy wrote:Tobias Hareka wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Each race should have one command ship that has a bonus to local reps and one that has a passive tank bonus! Rather not. Amarr is quite bad at passive tanking because lack of med slots required for shield tanking. And you can't passive tank a armor tanker. I don't think you get passive tanking. Passive tanking = no repair, so any armour buffer tank is passive tanking. Amarr is by far the best race at passive tanking. I think you are thinking of shield "passive" tanking which relies on shield regen. Whether it is actually passive tanking depends on how you define passive. The shield is regening, so its certainly not fully passive, but the player is not controlling it so it is passive on the pilots part. Armor doesn't regen, so if you passive tank armor you're done after one fight, win or lose. You have to go back to a friendly station to repair, and that could be far away. If you passive tank shield you can survive in enemy space forever and keep killing until someone finally beats you. Jesus. Stop confusing buffer tanking with passive tanking. You also need to realize that buffer tanks are extremely effective on the right ship, but someone in your gang needs to have remote repair (preferably a logistics of some sort, even a logistics frigate will do) for in between fight repair work.
I vote that 'passive shield tanking' (i.e. SPRs, purgers, etc.) be renamed to recharge tanking. |
Goldensaver
ArTech Expeditions
207
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 17:30:00 -
[223] - Quote
Ariesen Serenity wrote:But the Sleip is also losing 15 drone bandwidth. So that's a small dps downgrade also (added in to the 96%) I will admit that I did not notice that. In the "best" scenario you had 3 mediums and 2 lights, and now are downgraded to 5 lights. That is a real decrease to DPS, if small. that does also assume that you never use ECM drones or the sort, or just carry warriors for some protection against frigates.
But you did bring up a point I didn't notice, so I cede defeat. |
Commander Skulls
Celestial Armag3ddon Tribal Band
0
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Posted - 2013.08.01 17:30:00 -
[224] - Quote
My Astarte..... no... |
Ariesen Serenity
SRE Brotherhood
0
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Posted - 2013.08.01 17:34:00 -
[225] - Quote
BTW, I love the changes. The dps downgrades, coupled with the ability to use (and have the highs) for multiple links, with the additional bonuses, and Hull changes (PLEASE GIVE ME 'CANE SLEIP!!! and Mrym Eos!!!!!)....love it all.
Course, I'm probably going to sell all my Nighthawks for Claymores... |
mine mi
Boinas Rojas Gentlemen's Agreement
24
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Posted - 2013.08.01 17:36:00 -
[226] - Quote
I think the command ships, should come in 2 versions, one focused on gank, for small fleets and other tank focused for large fleets |
Ersahi Kir
The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance
233
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Posted - 2013.08.01 17:36:00 -
[227] - Quote
My biggest concern is that there is no good skirmish command ship that has staying power, especially in an armor doctrine. The armor skirmish boosters actually take a double hit in that they have less low slots to work with when building a tank and they lack the resist bonus. You could actually count it triple if you consider that the damnation has a 10% armor bonus on top of those two advantages.
I would really hate to see the legion be the skirmish warfare ship for armor fleets because it can't get alpha-ed off by perfectly coordinated sentry drone fleets, while the galente boosters remain as second class citizens in the command ship world. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4429
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 17:38:00 -
[228] - Quote
glepp wrote:Tuxedo Catfish wrote:Michael J Caboose wrote:Hortoken Wolfbrother wrote:I also echo elendar's concerns. The minmatar/gallente ships are too vulnerable for large fleet fights. Not having natural resists or EHP to match up to their companions means they start off already incredibly hobbled.
It'd be nice to see one ship for each race left intact as an active brawler, but the other ship get a bit of love to make it tougher. Why do caldari and amarr get a monopoly on these bonuses, when they are far far far far far better for large gang situations. You have two commands for each race, so it makes sense to have one designed around small gangs and one designed for larger fleets. In the case of minmatar, you could leave the claymore with its active bonus, and give the sleip a strong passive tanking bonus.
Thats my only complaint, but the ships are pretty good otherwise. No. The mimatar/gallente command ships get a very powerful bonus to skirmish links. In exchange, they are more fragile. Less useful in fleets, but good in gangs. The amarr/caldari command ships get a very powerful bonus to EHP. In exchange, they get a bonus to the crappy info warfare links that are seldom even used. Seems fair. Give the minmatar/gallente EHP bonuses, and no one will ever use amarr or caldari command ships. That's actually a pretty good answer. I reiterate my first two questions, though. No, local reps are wasted as soon as incoming dps > 1k, which means any gang > 1 Attack BC, really. So this either means that gallente CS won't be using one of their boni, or that armor gangs will never get bonused skirmish links. The minnie ships could compensate if they were faster (ie Attack BC speeds), but the Eos/Astarte are way too big/sluggish to sig/speed tank. Bye bye DP HAC armor fleets, it was fun while it lasted. Give the Gallente CS a tad more speed and swap local rep bonus on at least one for a hitpoint (not resist) bonus to allow it some more time to catch reps, please. Again, I think you are overlooking the buffs that were made to resistances. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Goldensaver
ArTech Expeditions
207
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 17:40:00 -
[229] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:My biggest concern is that there is no good skirmish command ship that has staying power, especially in an armor doctrine. The armor skirmish boosters actually take a double hit in that they have less low slots to work with when building a tank and they lack the resist bonus. You could actually count it triple if you consider that the damnation has a 10% armor bonus on top of those two advantages.
I would really hate to see the legion be the skirmish warfare ship for armor fleets because it can't get alpha-ed off by perfectly coordinated sentry drone fleets, while the galente boosters remain as second class citizens in the command ship world. A Legion set up for boosting will also get volleyed off. Basically if you want bonused Skirmish links in a gang, you'll have to bring in something squishy. If you are willing to settle for unbonused, you'll be fine. it's only a 15% bonus difference. Sometimes you'll just have to settle for the weaker links for a larger gang.
Besides, the Gallente CSs get high damage output, making them more useful in a small gang setting where everybody has to pull their weight. Have you looked at the Damnation's DPS? |
NetheranE
Error-404 Cup Of ConKrete.
54
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 17:41:00 -
[230] - Quote
I like these changes, again. Fozzie, your methods have yet to disappoint.
I would be a little concerned with the sliepnir have 100% dmg, a 5k alpha is quite frightening, but then again I guess it is the epitome of sub-BS projectile users.
The Nighthawk looks MUCH better now, however, Id rather the see the Nighthawk at 7/6/4 than 7/5/5. However, I can see that this treads on the toes of the new active claymore.... Okay, I take that back.
WP FOZZIE. YOU WIN THIS TIME. |
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NetheranE
Error-404 Cup Of ConKrete.
54
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 17:44:00 -
[231] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:My biggest concern is that there is no good skirmish command ship that has staying power, especially in an armor doctrine. The armor skirmish boosters actually take a double hit in that they have less low slots to work with when building a tank and they lack the resist bonus. You could actually count it triple if you consider that the damnation has a 10% armor bonus on top of those two advantages.
I would really hate to see the legion be the skirmish warfare ship for armor fleets because it can't get alpha-ed off by perfectly coordinated sentry drone fleets, while the galente boosters remain as second class citizens in the command ship world.
This is fine, skirmish armor fleets are a little bit of an oddity. We should keep agility and nano-based fighting with shield tanking, while giving ewar and resilience to armor fleets. Ever thought of how powerful armor scorpions will be under the boosts of a new damnation running info and armor?
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glepp
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
100
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 17:44:00 -
[232] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:glepp wrote:Tuxedo Catfish wrote:Michael J Caboose wrote:Hortoken Wolfbrother wrote:I also echo elendar's concerns. The minmatar/gallente ships are too vulnerable for large fleet fights. Not having natural resists or EHP to match up to their companions means they start off already incredibly hobbled.
It'd be nice to see one ship for each race left intact as an active brawler, but the other ship get a bit of love to make it tougher. Why do caldari and amarr get a monopoly on these bonuses, when they are far far far far far better for large gang situations. You have two commands for each race, so it makes sense to have one designed around small gangs and one designed for larger fleets. In the case of minmatar, you could leave the claymore with its active bonus, and give the sleip a strong passive tanking bonus.
Thats my only complaint, but the ships are pretty good otherwise. No. The mimatar/gallente command ships get a very powerful bonus to skirmish links. In exchange, they are more fragile. Less useful in fleets, but good in gangs. The amarr/caldari command ships get a very powerful bonus to EHP. In exchange, they get a bonus to the crappy info warfare links that are seldom even used. Seems fair. Give the minmatar/gallente EHP bonuses, and no one will ever use amarr or caldari command ships. That's actually a pretty good answer. I reiterate my first two questions, though. No, local reps are wasted as soon as incoming dps > 1k, which means any gang > 1 Attack BC, really. So this either means that gallente CS won't be using one of their boni, or that armor gangs will never get bonused skirmish links. The minnie ships could compensate if they were faster (ie Attack BC speeds), but the Eos/Astarte are way too big/sluggish to sig/speed tank. Bye bye DP HAC armor fleets, it was fun while it lasted. Give the Gallente CS a tad more speed and swap local rep bonus on at least one for a hitpoint (not resist) bonus to allow it some more time to catch reps, please. Again, I think you are overlooking the buffs that were made to resistances.
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Rose Roses
Artificial Memories
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 17:45:00 -
[233] - Quote
NetheranE wrote: I would be a little concerned with the sliepnir have 100% dmg, a 5k alpha is quite frightening.
5k alpha would be dangerous if it had a tracking bonus. Like this, it's mostly wayne. Lokis (both armor and faggotnanofit) run ~ 4.7k alpha using faction SR, and you need 6 of them to just blap a thorax :( |
Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
224
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 17:46:00 -
[234] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Aeril Malkyre wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Sarmatiko wrote:Also glad that Marauders are safe, for now.. /Maniacal Laugh You madman. Don't hurt my Vargur. He won't, you have my word. *Quickly hides the half-dissected Vargur lying next to the Frenchman and replaces it with a half-eaten baguette*
good thing we're paying attention to all the correct things in this thread, right? lets just ignore the fact that these changes won't do **** for minmatar/gallente cs outside of 1v1s and make ****** superficial jokes about an off-topic ship class |
Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
224
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 17:47:00 -
[235] - Quote
glepp wrote:Again, I think you are overlooking the buffs that were made to resistances.
oh yes, that 8% additional kinetic resist on top of a 75% base while explosive is still at 10%, really handy |
Witchking Angmar
Perkele.
41
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Posted - 2013.08.01 17:48:00 -
[236] - Quote
The PWG and CPU nerfs are too harsh. And why does Astarte lose 14.3% of its maximum damage? |
glepp
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
100
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 17:48:00 -
[237] - Quote
Grarr Dexx wrote:glepp wrote:Again, I think you are overlooking the buffs that were made to resistances. oh yes, that 8% additional kinetic resist on top of a 75% base while explosive is still at 10%, really handy
Wasn't me who said it. Have re-edited my post. Damn these fat fingers. |
Rose Roses
Artificial Memories
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 17:49:00 -
[238] - Quote
glepp wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:glepp wrote: No, local reps are wasted as soon as incoming dps > 1k, which means any gang > 1 Attack BC, really.
So this either means that gallente CS won't be using one of their boni, or that armor gangs will never get bonused skirmish links. The minnie ships could compensate if they were faster (ie Attack BC speeds), but the Eos/Astarte are way too big/sluggish to sig/speed tank. Bye bye DP HAC armor fleets, it was fun while it lasted.
Give the Gallente CS a tad more speed and swap local rep bonus on at least one for a hitpoint (not resist) bonus to allow it some more time to catch reps, please.
Again, I think you are overlooking the buffs that were made to resistances.
a) What is a DP HAC fleet? I never seen such a thing nor ever thought about doing it without beer and wine. b) boosting astarte/eos will tank around 1.5k/2.2k ehp/s with reasonable fits while boosting armor (all 3). Even using the current stats and modules, you can tank a talos and two oracles using current Tech-3-links. Maybe not on paper, but in space. |
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
258
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 17:54:00 -
[239] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Aeril Malkyre wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Sarmatiko wrote:Also glad that Marauders are safe, for now.. /Maniacal Laugh You madman. Don't hurt my Vargur. He won't, you have my word. *Quickly hides the half-dissected Vargur lying next to the Frenchman and replaces it with a half-eaten baguette* YTTERRRRBIIIIIUUUUUUMMMMM!!1!! /me shakes fists |
glepp
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
100
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 17:54:00 -
[240] - Quote
Rose Roses wrote:glepp wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:glepp wrote: No, local reps are wasted as soon as incoming dps > 1k, which means any gang > 1 Attack BC, really.
So this either means that gallente CS won't be using one of their boni, or that armor gangs will never get bonused skirmish links. The minnie ships could compensate if they were faster (ie Attack BC speeds), but the Eos/Astarte are way too big/sluggish to sig/speed tank. Bye bye DP HAC armor fleets, it was fun while it lasted.
Give the Gallente CS a tad more speed and swap local rep bonus on at least one for a hitpoint (not resist) bonus to allow it some more time to catch reps, please.
Again, I think you are overlooking the buffs that were made to resistances. a) What is a DP HAC fleet? I never seen such a thing nor ever thought about doing it without beer and wine. b) boosting astarte/eos will tank around 1.5k/2.2k ehp/s with reasonable fits while boosting armor (all 3). Even using the current stats and modules, you can tank a talos and two oracles using current Tech-3-links. Maybe not on paper, but in space. A) DP = Dual Prop. Applies to MWD setups as well. CS are way too slow to keep up. Same for Attack BC gangs.
B) Ok, so in any fight with more than three attack BC on the other side, the bonus is useless. |
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