Originally by: Marcus Aurelius

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And this is coming in when exactly ?

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Originally by: Tuxford

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Sacrilege
It's a little bit too much Khanid too little Amarr so we made a few changes.

Missile launcher rate of fire bonus changed to laser damage

Armor hitpoints increased and shield capacity decreased (same number of total hitpoints)

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Originally by: Tuxford

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Originally by: Marcus Aurelius

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And this is coming in when exactly ?

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Soon of course.

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Originally by: Buzzmong

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hmm, this means the Sac will be less sucky, might have to get me one before the price rises.

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Originally by: Chode Rizoum

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Typhoon plz

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Originally by: Vanye

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While we're at it, Muninn +150Grid?

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Originally by: Elve Sorrow

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Right, Sac changes. It's an improvement, it makes the ship more usefull. But it also makes it damn near identical to the Zealot. What if it lost a high for a fifth mid? Or got a bit more dronebay then the currently fairly small one?

This, even though i welcome the chance, makes it more boring.

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Originally by: Elve Sorrow

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True. May aswell ditch that. But then please no missile RoF bonus, but something to tanking. 5% to repairer efficiency?

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Originally by: Tuxford

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...

Sacrilege
It's a little bit too much Khanid too little Amarr so we made a few changes.

Missile launcher rate of fire bonus changed to laser damage

Armor hitpoints increased and shield capacity decreased (same number of total hitpoints)

All the cool kids stay on topic

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Originally by: tenp1

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You may also want to take a look at PG on the sac if you do go with the bonus' mentioned, as you can in no way fit a 4xHeavy Beam + 2xHeavy launcher + tank with 1600mm even half as easily as 4x425 rail + 2 launchers + tank with Large shield extender. Mind you, none of the armour tank HACS can do that as easily as the shield tank ones so that may be an entirely seperate issue .

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Originally by: Jim Raynor

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I think it's dumb to drop the Sacrileges launcher rate of fire bonus.. why not drop the laser optimal bonus and give it a laser damage bonus instead?

Then the Sacrilege would be cool with lasers and launchers strapped on, why turn it into a Zealot?

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Originally by: Jim Raynor

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I think it's dumb to drop the Sacrileges launcher rate of fire bonus.. why not drop the laser optimal bonus and give it a laser damage bonus instead?

Then the Sacrilege would be cool with lasers and launchers strapped on, why turn it into a Zealot?

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Originally by: keepiru

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Originally by: Jim Raynor

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I think it's dumb to drop the Sacrileges launcher rate of fire bonus.. why not drop the laser optimal bonus and give it a laser damage bonus instead?

Then the Sacrilege would be cool with lasers and launchers strapped on, why turn it into a Zealot?

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^^^^^^^^

I support this post.

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Originally by: Malken

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Originally by: Jim Raynor

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I think it's dumb to drop the Sacrileges launcher rate of fire bonus.. why not drop the laser optimal bonus and give it a laser damage bonus instead?

Then the Sacrilege would be cool with lasers and launchers strapped on, why turn it into a Zealot?

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you dont drive amarr hacs so i assume you have no clue.

the zealot has alot better dmg output then a sac will have after this fix.
atleast now it might be able to kill a assault figate.

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Originally by: Gierling

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Please look at the following things.

Sentry drones: Not only are they bugged and won't fire outside of your drone control range, if you do go all out and devote 11 slots to it (Omni tracking links AND drone range augments) you still can't fire past 100k. Its absurd to FINALLY give the domi a long range weapons system (Some of us dream of taking our domi to fleet fights ok), and cap it at 100k no matter how many mids and highs you devote to it.

Dominix: Could use a look, maybe replace the large hybrid turret damage with 10% drone control range per level? Failing that give it enough powergrid to fit a full rack of its best guns with Perfect fitting skills and only one RCU. (10500 base grid).

Typhoon: either give it more turret slots or give it solid split bonuses. Like Turret AND launcher ROF. One more turret and some extra grid should make it competitive however.

Catalyst: Doesn't benefit at all from the mark two project, blasters don't need extra optimal and any respectable railgun setup cant fit due to CPU constraints.

New Battleships and battlecruisers, Please at least show us the concept art please , oh and for ideas on tier 2 battlecruisers think 3-4 BS sized weapons and the grid to run them but make them slot limited.

Oh and please look at adding faction carebear equipment :)

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Originally by: Jim Raynor

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The Sacrilege is a Khanid ship, it's a amarr/caldari hybrid in technology, it has missile launchers for a reason, without the rate of fire bonus, you might as well take away the launcher hardpoints.

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Quote:

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Looking at other races HAC you can see they are generally different fron one another.

The Deimos is blasters, the Ishtar is drones.
The Eagle is railguns, the Cerberus is missiles.
The Muninn and Vagabond are sort of simular but one is a very fast autocannon ship and the other is more suited for artillery.

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Quote:

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Why not drop the optimal bonus instead? Laser damage + launcher rate of fire would be cool bonuses for the Sac, it would actually give a valid reason to fit bother lasers and launchers on it.. much like eagle pilots generally fit railguns and launchers as well.

All these changes do is make the Sac more like the Zealot, that's stupid, we already have Zealot so why shift the Sac into that direction further?

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Originally by: Tuxford

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Anyway lets try to keep this thread about changes that we are (or at least are thinking about doing) instead of things that you wish we would do, no matter how valid they are

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Originally by: Tulia

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As for the manticore capacitor, yea; it is garbage. The manticore is definitely the least mobile of all the bombers, and considering people are utilizing the other races covops ships as actual fighters (cruise missile/artillery hound, etc) with great success, it would be nice to simply give the manticore a slightly more efficient warp drive. It is silly having to equip a small cap battery II just to do 90au jumps, which may still be out of your reach. It is a sluggish, hard to fit, long range inefficient hulk of a frigate with no close range defense whatsoever. I have no problems with the fitting difficulties, that is just part of having one more launcher than the other bombers. Not being welcome in fleets due to your pathetic ability to move around a system, that is a big problem.

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Originally by: Gierling

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New Battleships and battlecruisers, Please at least show us the concept art please , oh and for ideas on tier 2 battlecruisers think 3-4 BS sized weapons and the grid to run them but make them slot limited.

Oh and please look at adding faction carebear equipment :)

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Quote:

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Ehm, you do realize that the Hound has 25 less base capacitor than the manticore, dont you ?

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5% Laser damage
5% Missile RoF

Originally by: Jim Raynor

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I think it's dumb to drop the Sacrileges launcher rate of fire bonus.. why not drop the laser optimal bonus and give it a laser damage bonus instead?

Then the Sacrilege would be cool with lasers and launchers strapped on, why turn it into a Zealot?

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Originally by: Elve Sorrow

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Now, suggestion from me: Focus on that with regard to its bonus'.

Add a missile slot, making it 4 turret, 4 launcher and 6 highslots. Then:

Heavy Assault Ship skill Bonus':

5% Laser damage
5% Missile RoF

Now, it does reasonable damage with both of it's weapon systems. It also has the option of going 4 launchers and 2 nosf, or something similarly funky.

P.S:
Yay for being a cool kid. \o/

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Originally by: Elve Sorrow

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Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 21/01/2006 15:31:57
Last post from me regarding the Sacrilege:

I agree with Jim, mainly. The armor <-> Shield HP swap is good, although i'd like to hear the exact HP numbers please?

Then it's bonus'. Dropping the Launcher RoF completely kills any 'fun' setups, such as 3 nosf and 3 launchers. It already did pityfull damage, itll only get worse. Dropping the optimal range bonus wouldnt nerf it in any way to be honest. The good thing about the Sacrilege is it doesnt need to keep range because of its quite decent tank. It can afford to get in close, soak up damage. It doesnt need that optimal bonus.

Now, suggestion from me: Focus on that with regard to its bonus'.

Add a missile slot, making it 4 turret, 4 launcher and 6 highslots. Then:

Heavy Assault Ship skill Bonus':

5% Laser damage
5% Missile RoF

Now, it does reasonable damage with both of it's weapon systems. It also has the option of going 4 launchers and 2 nosf, or something similarly funky.

P.S:
Yay for being a cool kid. \o/

---

Originally by: Tuxford

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We have also noticed the post on the missing 4th assault ship bonus (it's got a yellow bar even iirc). We kind of all agree that it is "missing". Personally I don't think that assault ships are underpowered in general but I would still like to ... bah I'm drifting off topic myself

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Originally by: Elve Sorrow

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Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 21/01/2006 15:31:57
Last post from me regarding the Sacrilege:

I agree with Jim, mainly. The armor <-> Shield HP swap is good, although i'd like to hear the exact HP numbers please?

Then it's bonus'. Dropping the Launcher RoF completely kills any 'fun' setups, such as 3 nosf and 3 launchers. It already did pityfull damage, itll only get worse. Dropping the optimal range bonus wouldnt nerf it in any way to be honest. The good thing about the Sacrilege is it doesnt need to keep range because of its quite decent tank. It can afford to get in close, soak up damage. It doesnt need that optimal bonus.

Now, suggestion from me: Focus on that with regard to its bonus'.

Add a missile slot, making it 4 turret, 4 launcher and 6 highslots. Then:

Heavy Assault Ship skill Bonus':

5% Laser damage
5% Missile RoF

Now, it does reasonable damage with both of it's weapon systems. It also has the option of going 4 launchers and 2 nosf, or something similarly funky.

P.S:
Yay for being a cool kid. \o/

---

Originally by: Weirda

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furthermore - the Jag is identical to the rifter in almost every respect except that it slower and heavier in exchange for a bit more shield/armor and the assault resist.

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Originally by: Elve Sorrow

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Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 21/01/2006 15:31:57
Last post from me regarding the Sacrilege:

I agree with Jim, mainly. The armor <-> Shield HP swap is good, although i'd like to hear the exact HP numbers please?

Then it's bonus'. Dropping the Launcher RoF completely kills any 'fun' setups, such as 3 nosf and 3 launchers. It already did pityfull damage, itll only get worse. Dropping the optimal range bonus wouldnt nerf it in any way to be honest. The good thing about the Sacrilege is it doesnt need to keep range because of its quite decent tank. It can afford to get in close, soak up damage. It doesnt need that optimal bonus.

Now, suggestion from me: Focus on that with regard to its bonus'.

Add a missile slot, making it 4 turret, 4 launcher and 6 highslots. Then:

Heavy Assault Ship skill Bonus':

5% Laser damage
5% Missile RoF

Now, it does reasonable damage with both of it's weapon systems. It also has the option of going 4 launchers and 2 nosf, or something similarly funky.

P.S:
Yay for being a cool kid. \o/

---

Originally by: Tomb

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It's been known issue for quite some time that large blasters have had issues, mostly fitting and tracking as well ... and cap.

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Originally by: Weirda

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great news tux!

any word on the Assault Ship and their 4th bonus? (see my beloved thread from siggie)...

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Originally by: Kusotarre

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Originally by: Weirda

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great news tux!

any word on the Assault Ship and their 4th bonus? (see my beloved thread from siggie)...

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FOUND ONE!

No 3rd person! You totally screwed up now, Weirda!

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Originally by: Vishnej

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Edited by: Vishnej on 22/01/2006 04:17:35
Any idea whether the Sac could get its 5% armor resist bonus changed to 7.5% armor+shield? Khanid go both ways, and Sacrilege should preserve its role as a super-tank, not fold in the face of the sniping Eagle getting an equiv bonus.

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Originally by: Kusotarre

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Originally by: Weirda

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great news tux!

any word on the Assault Ship and their 4th bonus? (see my beloved thread from siggie)...

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FOUND ONE!

No 3rd person! You totally screwed up now, Weirda!

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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When are Blasters gonna be fixed? They need their fitting requirements reduced, the DPS improved, and the range doubled, with the tracking increased just a touch.

I mean, come on, 3000m optimal for Large Ions is ridiculous, especially since if you're inside 2000m you start to MISS because of tracking issues.

Unerf the Blasters so my Mega is competitive against the new tanks, or massively increase the grid/cpu on the Mega so that it can have somewhat of a tank and still deal the DPS needed *while running tank at full tilt* like all the other ships out there.

And again, no I don't want an "I win" button. I just want my ship to work in the very narrow niche that the Devs have defined for it.

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Originally by: Karnov Darkstar

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What about this:

Originally by: Tomb

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It's been known issue for quite some time that large blasters have had issues, mostly fitting and tracking as well ... and cap.

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Linkage

?

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Originally by: Maya Rkell

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Edited by: Maya Rkell on 20/01/2006 22:25:38
Great, now the Sac's a bad version of the Zealot. (laser bonus? bleh - I admit the shield/armour thing makes sense)

And the damage control giving hull hit points dosn't and never has made sense to me. Give it a small armour repair, instead. So shield-tanked ships with a dcontrol don't need to rely on remote reps / rep drones if they have 10 mins to wait after a fight...

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Originally by: Tuxford

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Originally by: Marcus Aurelius

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And this is coming in when exactly ?

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Soon of course.

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Originally by: Rod Blaine

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Soo, thats what you guys been doing since RmR release ?
That's ALL I mean ?

You have loads of bugreports if i'm not mistakes, reltated to RmR additions related to ship function and balance, and this is all you coem up with after a month ?


No offense, but it's too little guys.

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Originally by: Sarmaul

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tomb (or was it hammer?) has explicitly stated that the phoon's optimal bonus is going to be changed into a missile bonus, to "make it more aggressive".

5% cruise & siege launcher damage or 5% siege & cruise launcher rof please :)

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Originally by: Tuxford

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Originally by: Rod Blaine

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Soo, thats what you guys been doing since RmR release ?
That's ALL I mean ?

You have loads of bugreports if i'm not mistakes, reltated to RmR additions related to ship function and balance, and this is all you coem up with after a month ?


No offense, but it's too little guys.

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No this is just stuff that isn't really bugged but is getting changed nonethelss. Other stuff that was just not working as intended is just fixed and posted in the bug reports.

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Originally by: Sarmaul

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tomb (or was it hammer?) has explicitly stated that the phoon's optimal bonus is going to be changed into a missile bonus, to "make it more aggressive".

5% cruise & siege launcher damage or 5% siege & cruise launcher rof please :)

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Originally by: LWMaverick

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Edited by: LWMaverick on 24/01/2006 00:19:02
Ey tuxford, dont forget that The absolution's RoF bonuses needs to be taken a look at, its being applied as a penality atm.. The RoF goes up instead of down for every command ship level :(


/Mav

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Originally by: Woodbine

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Hi Tuxford,

I have indeed set in a bug report and had a reply saying that I was infact correct. This is relating to the Falcon (just as I fly that one) where you can fit it all up as you want with the covert ops cloak and cyno field.... undock and then CAN NOT CLOAK... This I know is a bug but one that makes the Falcon kind of null and void.

Is there any chance you can get this sorted so that I have the use of the ship.

Many Thanks.

PS. I can supply the bug report number etc if that will help you.

PPS. This I would suggest is important as its a new T2 ship that can not do what it was designed to do. :(

---

Originally by: Tuxford

---

Just wanted to ask you to stay a little more on topic in this thread. We aren't really focusing on any major changes or overhaul of t2 ships right now or any other ships for that matter. The Sacrilege change is something that we have been talking about for some time. The Damage Control change is really bug fix.

Having said that then we have also been talking about the Typhoon but I'm not gonna post anything until it's more final.

We have also noticed the post on the missing 4th assault ship bonus (it's got a yellow bar even iirc). We kind of all agree that it is "missing". Personally I don't think that assault ships are underpowered in general but I would still like to ... bah I'm drifting off topic myself

Anyway lets try to keep this thread about changes that we are (or at least are thinking about doing) instead of things that you wish we would do, no matter how valid they are

---

Originally by: Elve Sorrow

---

[
Then it's bonus'. Dropping the Launcher RoF completely kills any 'fun' setups, such as 3 nosf and 3 launchers. It already did pityfull damage, itll only get worse. Dropping the optimal range bonus wouldnt nerf it in any way to be honest. The good thing about the Sacrilege is it doesnt need to keep range because of its quite decent tank. It can afford to get in close, soak up damage. It doesnt need that optimal bonus.

Now, suggestion from me: Focus on that with regard to its bonus'.

Add a missile slot, making it 4 turret, 4 launcher and 6 highslots. Then:

Heavy Assault Ship skill Bonus':

5% Laser damage
5% Missile RoF

Now, it does reasonable damage with both of it's weapon systems. It also has the option of going 4 launchers and 2 nosf, or something similarly funky.

P.S:
Yay for being a cool kid. \o/

---

Originally by: Elve Sorrow

---

[
Then it's bonus'. Dropping the Launcher RoF completely kills any 'fun' setups, such as 3 nosf and 3 launchers. It already did pityfull damage, itll only get worse. Dropping the optimal range bonus wouldnt nerf it in any way to be honest. The good thing about the Sacrilege is it doesnt need to keep range because of its quite decent tank. It can afford to get in close, soak up damage. It doesnt need that optimal bonus.

Now, suggestion from me: Focus on that with regard to its bonus'.

Add a missile slot, making it 4 turret, 4 launcher and 6 highslots. Then:

Heavy Assault Ship skill Bonus':

5% Laser damage
5% Missile RoF

Now, it does reasonable damage with both of it's weapon systems. It also has the option of going 4 launchers and 2 nosf, or something similarly funky.

P.S:
Yay for being a cool kid. \o/

---

Originally by: Alex Harumichi

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Or give it something else, but please try to make it stand out from the Zealot, give both ships different and valid roles.

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~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible

Originally by: Alex Harumichi

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Or give it something else, but please try to make it stand out from the Zealot, give both ships different and valid roles.

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Originally by: Gariuys

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Originally by: Alex Harumichi

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Or give it something else, but please try to make it stand out from the Zealot, give both ships different and valid roles.

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You mean like they have now? All HACs have a range bonus, it's part of being a HAC. The whining has exactly been about the fact that the sacrilidges role is too far from the zealot IOWS, doesn't do enough damage.

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Originally by: Elve Sorrow

---

Now, suggestion from me: Focus on that with regard to its bonus'.

Add a missile slot, making it 4 turret, 4 launcher and 6 highslots. Then:

Heavy Assault Ship skill Bonus':

5% Laser damage
5% Missile RoF

Now, it does reasonable damage with both of it's weapon systems. It also has the option of going 4 launchers and 2 nosf, or something similarly funky.

---

Originally by: Maric

---

Tux, I have a question: Does any of those ideas have any influence on Devs final desizion? I mean, there are realy nice posts and good proposals, but why bothering if You allready make up Your mind?

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Originally by: Elve Sorrow

---

Then it's bonus'. Dropping the Launcher RoF completely kills any 'fun' setups, such as 3 nosf and 3 launchers. It already did pityfull damage, itll only get worse. Dropping the optimal range bonus wouldnt nerf it in any way to be honest. The good thing about the Sacrilege is it doesnt need to keep range because of its quite decent tank. It can afford to get in close, soak up damage. It doesnt need that optimal bonus.

Now, suggestion from me: Focus on that with regard to its bonus'.

Add a missile slot, making it 4 turret, 4 launcher and 6 highslots. Then:

Heavy Assault Ship skill Bonus':

5% Laser damage
5% Missile RoF

Now, it does reasonable damage with both of it's weapon systems. It also has the option of going 4 launchers and 2 nosf, or something similarly funky.

P.S:
Yay for being a cool kid. \o/

---

Originally by: Elve Sorrow

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Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 24/01/2006 15:57:08

Originally by: Maric

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Tux, I have a question: Does any of those ideas have any influence on Devs final desizion? I mean, there are realy nice posts and good proposals, but why bothering if You allready make up Your mind?

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Im kinda wondering that myself. I'd settle for a quick 'These changes are final, stop bothering us.', 'We're still considering changing them.' or 'These changes are what we will settle for now, we might look at it in a later phase.'

Thankyou.

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Originally by: Thorgrim

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erstmal drei von den Kisten gekauft

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Originally by: Joerd Toastius

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While I can see the "fun setups" line, I'd suggest that if you want to play with a real Amarr/Caldari hybrid, get your hands on a Sansha ship or two. Ships for "multi-racial setups" already exist in the various faction ships. I'd much rather have Amarr T2 ships be properly Amarrian rather than the current Khanid Amarr/Caldari bastardisations.

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Originally by: Nafri

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wonder why the fix the sacrilege before thy fix the typhoon, typhoon was a bad ship since it came out

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Originally by: Meridius

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Originally by: Nafri

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wonder why the fix the sacrilege before thy fix the typhoon, typhoon was a bad ship since it came out

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The Sacrilege is pretty

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Originally by: Ravenal

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Edited by: Ravenal on 25/01/2006 00:16:30
sac is a khanid modified maller which means it should be base maller (lots of armor and resistances)

it should keep its missile rof as its a "caldari" launcher installation...
its second hac bonus should be bonus to optimal range... :/ - thats on par with like the vengence although i dont understand why the retribution has optimal range too... that one should have bonus rof.

but yeah.. the sac somehow needs some damage bonus - the mallers 5th turret slot should stay.. making it a 5/3 6 high slot ship...

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Originally by: Wheya

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A bad idea to change the missile bonus to a turret bonus.

As a producer of the Sacrilege I welcome more demand. When fighting against Minmatar ships, and that's I mostly do, I always prefered the Sacrilege over the Zealot because it can do at least some other damage beside thermal and EM. Minnie t2 resistance is insane. A Sacrilege will be completly screwed against minmatar ships. To me this changes are only a slight boost for PvE for those Amarrians who did not have trained missile skills.

For Pvp I consider your proposed changes as an additional nerf as long as there are no t2 crystals that can do kinetic and/or explosive damage.

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Originally by: Rodj Blake

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Originally by: Wheya

---

A bad idea to change the missile bonus to a turret bonus.

As a producer of the Sacrilege I welcome more demand. When fighting against Minmatar ships, and that's I mostly do, I always prefered the Sacrilege over the Zealot because it can do at least some other damage beside thermal and EM. Minnie t2 resistance is insane. A Sacrilege will be completly screwed against minmatar ships. To me this changes are only a slight boost for PvE for those Amarrians who did not have trained missile skills.

For Pvp I consider your proposed changes as an additional nerf as long as there are no t2 crystals that can do kinetic and/or explosive damage.

---

A very good point.

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Originally by: Tuxford

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Originally by: Woodbine

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Hi Tuxford,

I have indeed set in a bug report and had a reply saying that I was infact correct. This is relating to the Falcon (just as I fly that one) where you can fit it all up as you want with the covert ops cloak and cyno field.... undock and then CAN NOT CLOAK... This I know is a bug but one that makes the Falcon kind of null and void.

Is there any chance you can get this sorted so that I have the use of the ship.

Many Thanks.

PS. I can supply the bug report number etc if that will help you.

PPS. This I would suggest is important as its a new T2 ship that can not do what it was designed to do. :(

---

Know about that one as well but it's a bit trickier to fix. Saying that the force recons are useless though is just nonsense though. Even without the Cynosural field bonuses Falcon is a great ship.

I'll get someone working on fixing this.

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Originally by: Tuxford

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Sacrilege
It's a little bit too much Khanid too little Amarr so we made a few changes.

Missile launcher rate of fire bonus changed to laser damage

Armor hitpoints increased and shield capacity decreased (same number of total hitpoints)

---

Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Originally by: Tuxford

---

Originally by: Woodbine

---

Hi Tuxford,

I have indeed set in a bug report and had a reply saying that I was infact correct. This is relating to the Falcon (just as I fly that one) where you can fit it all up as you want with the covert ops cloak and cyno field.... undock and then CAN NOT CLOAK... This I know is a bug but one that makes the Falcon kind of null and void.

Is there any chance you can get this sorted so that I have the use of the ship.

Many Thanks.

PS. I can supply the bug report number etc if that will help you.

PPS. This I would suggest is important as its a new T2 ship that can not do what it was designed to do. :(

---

Know about that one as well but it's a bit trickier to fix. Saying that the force recons are useless though is just nonsense though. Even without the Cynosural field bonuses Falcon is a great ship.

I'll get someone working on fixing this.

---

Create an Item Category called Cyno Fields, move the Cyno field from the cloaking category to the Cyno Field category. Wouldnt that stop the 'You cant activate a cloak when youve got 2 cloaks fitted' problem...?

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Originally by: Jim Raynor

---

I think it's dumb to drop the Sacrileges launcher rate of fire bonus.. why not drop the laser optimal bonus and give it a laser damage bonus instead?

Then the Sacrilege would be cool with lasers and launchers strapped on, why turn it into a Zealot?

---

Originally by: Eyeshadow

---

Any chance of the deimos getting some more grid and a reduction in mass too to make it a tad more agile?

Also, any news on the blaster/autocannon changes that TomB said he was looking into?

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Originally by: Levin Cavil

---

Originally by: Jim Raynor

---

I think it's dumb to drop the Sacrileges launcher rate of fire bonus.. why not drop the laser optimal bonus and give it a laser damage bonus instead?

Then the Sacrilege would be cool with lasers and launchers strapped on, why turn it into a Zealot?

---

vote Jim for Dev in 2006

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Originally by: Hllaxiu

---

Edited by: Hllaxiu on 27/01/2006 00:08:02

Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

---

Originally by: Tuxford

---

Originally by: Woodbine

---

Hi Tuxford,

I have indeed set in a bug report and had a reply saying that I was infact correct. This is relating to the Falcon (just as I fly that one) where you can fit it all up as you want with the covert ops cloak and cyno field.... undock and then CAN NOT CLOAK... This I know is a bug but one that makes the Falcon kind of null and void.

Is there any chance you can get this sorted so that I have the use of the ship.

Many Thanks.

PS. I can supply the bug report number etc if that will help you.

PPS. This I would suggest is important as its a new T2 ship that can not do what it was designed to do. :(

---

Know about that one as well but it's a bit trickier to fix. Saying that the force recons are useless though is just nonsense though. Even without the Cynosural field bonuses Falcon is a great ship.

I'll get someone working on fixing this.

---

Create an Item Category called Cyno Fields, move the Cyno field from the cloaking category to the Cyno Field category. Wouldnt that stop the 'You cant activate a cloak when youve got 2 cloaks fitted' problem...?

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I think they're "borrowing" the cloaking code for the cynosural field stuff. IE, when you have a cynosural field active you get info like "You cannot activate <module> due to the active cloaking field" and people locking you see "you cannot lock the target because it cloaked" (or at least it used to). Basically, they made it a cloak with -100% speed penalty, without invisibility and that launches a beacon - that way they didn't have to write all that code again. Problem is of course that you can't fit two "cloaks "on the same ship... This probably isn't a simple change (if it was, they wouldn't have reused the cloak code anyways), although its completely impossible to tell how hard without knowing a lot about how eve handles ship state amungst a lot of other stuff.

---

Originally by: Jevnikar

---

Everyone here want's to improve PG better damage and everything .. If ccp does all that, you'll probably fit best guns on any ship while having lvl 1 advanced weapon upgrades and still maintain awsome tank and everything else.. there's no point bosting things. specialy when each ship has it's uses and thay are realy well performed for what thay were made.
learn some skill's imo

rgr

---

Originally by: Tuxford

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Sacrilege

Missile launcher rate of fire bonus changed to laser damage

Armor hitpoints increased and shield capacity decreased (same number of total hitpoints)

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Originally by: Tuxford

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All the cool kids stay on topic

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Originally by: Sarmaul

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tomb (or was it hammer?) has explicitly stated that the phoon's optimal bonus is going to be changed into a missile bonus, to "make it more aggressive".

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Originally by: Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol

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So what's so Khanid that is left on the Sac?

Give it the ROF for missiles instead of the range bonus, a hybrid ship should be stronger than a non-hybrid anyways, since you have to train twice as many sp for it.

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Originally by: Maric

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Originally by: Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol

---

So what's so Khanid that is left on the Sac?

Give it the ROF for missiles instead of the range bonus, a hybrid ship should be stronger than a non-hybrid anyways, since you have to train twice as many sp for it.

---

True.

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Originally by: Kel Dario

---

As a new sacrilege pilot myself I like some of those proposed changes in this thread: the shield/armour hp switch and a fourth launcher slot. However I want the missile ROF bonus to stay and I would also like to make the ship a little MORE Khanid, not less, by changing the optimal range bonus to a 10% nosferatu range and amount transfer bonus.

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Originally by: Arabian Goggle

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Originally by: Kel Dario

---

As a new sacrilege pilot myself I like some of those proposed changes in this thread: the shield/armour hp switch and a fourth launcher slot. However I want the missile ROF bonus to stay and I would also like to make the ship a little MORE Khanid, not less, by changing the optimal range bonus to a 10% nosferatu range and amount transfer bonus.

---

Boo, no way. MORE missiles? If you want missiles go fly a Caldari ship. Sacrilege requires AMARR cruiser skill. For specialized Amarr pilots, the sacrilege's missile bonuses and launcher points are a waste of time.

Although I do agree with you on the nos bonus.

---

Originally by: Maya Rkell

---

..................

Hawk? Yea, that blows. Making it a missile ship would be even more pointless though.

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Originally by: Vegeir

---

Experience exists in EVE,
it just isn't measured in numbers.

---

Originally by: Dash Ripcock

---

Originally by: Jevnikar

---

Everyone here want's to improve PG better damage and everything .. If ccp does all that, you'll probably fit best guns on any ship while having lvl 1 advanced weapon upgrades and still maintain awsome tank and everything else.. there's no point bosting things. specialy when each ship has it's uses and thay are realy well performed for what thay were made.
learn some skill's imo

rgr

---

You obviously don't fly a Deimos!


We're not asking for much, just the ability to use Ion Blaster IIs on a Tech 2 blaster-orientated ship. I have full fitting skills, and as it stands I can't fit a practical Ion setup due to the low CPU and power-grid difference between the Thorax and the Deimos (only 40 PG and 30 CPU for two slots).

I can fit all my other ships exactly how I want to, but alas my Deimos sits gathering dust.

---

Originally by: Jim Raynor

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Originally by: Arabian Goggle

---

Originally by: Kel Dario

---

As a new sacrilege pilot myself I like some of those proposed changes in this thread: the shield/armour hp switch and a fourth launcher slot. However I want the missile ROF bonus to stay and I would also like to make the ship a little MORE Khanid, not less, by changing the optimal range bonus to a 10% nosferatu range and amount transfer bonus.

---

Boo, no way. MORE missiles? If you want missiles go fly a Caldari ship. Sacrilege requires AMARR cruiser skill. For specialized Amarr pilots, the sacrilege's missile bonuses and launcher points are a waste of time.

Although I do agree with you on the nos bonus.

---

Let's look at this from the point of view of other races shall we?

Boo, no way. MORE turrets? If you want hybrids go fly a Gallente ship. Eagle requires CALDARI cruiser skill. For specialized Caldari pilots, the Eagles hybrid bonuses and turret points are a waste of time.

Why is it that as Caldari you get a railgun HAC and a heavy missile HAC and you have to train both gunnery and launcher op to use both effectively but having an Amarr cruiser with a balanced loadout of lasers and launchers and missile bonuses is some sort of crime against humanity?

If you want to be good with both the Deimos and the Ishtar you need both drone op and gunnery.

Why is it that Amarr should never have ships that use anything except lasers and never have to train anything but lasers and only lasers?

That is so boring, the Sacrilege needs some boosts but turning it into a Zealot that does less damage and tanks better is retarded, its Khanid, it should keep its launcher bonuses, to take away the launcher bonuses simply makes the Sac the retarded cousin of the Zealot and completely pointless..

---

Originally by: Jevnikar

---

Originally by: Dash Ripcock

---

Originally by: Jevnikar

---

Everyone here want's to improve PG better damage and everything .. If ccp does all that, you'll probably fit best guns on any ship while having lvl 1 advanced weapon upgrades and still maintain awsome tank and everything else.. there's no point bosting things. specialy when each ship has it's uses and thay are realy well performed for what thay were made.
learn some skill's imo

rgr

---

You obviously don't fly a Deimos!


We're not asking for much, just the ability to use Ion Blaster IIs on a Tech 2 blaster-orientated ship. I have full fitting skills, and as it stands I can't fit a practical Ion setup due to the low CPU and power-grid difference between the Thorax and the Deimos (only 40 PG and 30 CPU for two slots).

I can fit all my other ships exactly how I want to, but alas my Deimos sits gathering dust.

---

i use deimos and i have t2 electrons i use t2 ammo aswell and when you get the chance and do some calculations and then understand the concept of ROF and DPS you'll get the idea that ions compared to electrons.

but i wouldnt mind some pg and cpu but then you would make too good ship that would probably pwn to much and deimos alredy does awsome damage

---

Originally by: tenp1

---

I have to agree with you completely Jim. It's about time amarr got a secondary weapon system like the other 3 races, and the khanid ships are a good start. From what I have seen so far CCP can't quite decide if amarr are "THE" turret race or galante are, so personally I'd like to see more amarr ships with a secondary weapon system that makes them more distinct. I guess that over abundance of "Utilty" slots means nos or neuts are the amarr secondary weapon or at least the only one available on most amarr ships. On top of that, it's not exactly skill intensive like the other races secondaries. Personally though, I'd like to see more missile slots to fill those utility slots, if nothing more than to give the chance to fit defenders. At least then there can be no complaints about needing missile skills to fly khanid ships, as you will need missile skills to make the most of the T1 ships. Besides that, Amarr must be the only race that 90% of the time has only 2 damage types available (few amarr ships have either drones or missiles, several have neither, in my opinion every ship should have 1 or the other) so the chance to do even minor damage of other types is a bonus.

Back on subject tho, the more I think about it, I think the Sac would benfit more with an extra launcher and keeping the missile ROF bonus. I'd also be happy if it lost the laser cap bonus for maybe a Nos bonus, and instead of the laser ROF bonus it got a missile damage one instead. That would give you a truely unique ship, in that it would be a short range, armour tanked missile/nos boat. Thats a ship I'd like to fly

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Originally by: Arabian Goggle

---

Edited by: Arabian Goggle on 31/01/2006 01:33:45
Edited by: Arabian Goggle on 31/01/2006 01:32:34
Edited by: Arabian Goggle on 31/01/2006 01:31:50

Originally by: tenp1

---

I have to agree with you completely Jim. It's about time amarr got a secondary weapon system like the other 3 races, and the khanid ships are a good start. From what I have seen so far CCP can't quite decide if amarr are "THE" turret race or galante are, so personally I'd like to see more amarr ships with a secondary weapon system that makes them more distinct. I guess that over abundance of "Utilty" slots means nos or neuts are the amarr secondary weapon or at least the only one available on most amarr ships. On top of that, it's not exactly skill intensive like the other races secondaries. Personally though, I'd like to see more missile slots to fill those utility slots, if nothing more than to give the chance to fit defenders. At least then there can be no complaints about needing missile skills to fly khanid ships, as you will need missile skills to make the most of the T1 ships. Besides that, Amarr must be the only race that 90% of the time has only 2 damage types available (few amarr ships have either drones or missiles, several have neither, in my opinion every ship should have 1 or the other) so the chance to do even minor damage of other types is a bonus.

Back on subject tho, the more I think about it, I think the Sac would benfit more with an extra launcher and keeping the missile ROF bonus. I'd also be happy if it lost the laser cap bonus for maybe a Nos bonus, and instead of the laser ROF bonus it got a missile damage one instead. That would give you a truely unique ship, in that it would be a short range, armour tanked missile/nos boat. Thats a ship I'd like to fly

---

Ok ok. I must admit you do have a point on Amarr focusing heavily on lasers. But why can't the Khanid ships be more EW focused instead of using missiles?

It is fairly well understood that ships with mixed missile and turret points aren't as effective in PVP as a ship that is dedicated to 1 weapon type. I suppose then, going with Jim's logic, the Sac could be a pure missile boat so as not to mix weapons but make sure Amarr pilots are forced to train another weapon type. But if we did that, why not just call it a Caldari ship?

I think a better solution would be to give the Sacrilege a nos or EW bonus and another utility or midslot respectively.

---

Originally by: Jim Raynor

---

What's wrong with missiles? Everyone insists they're so overpowered lately I thought Amarr kids would welcome launchers + bonuses on any of their ships.

I think turning the Sac into a pure laser ship is about as retarded as making the Eagle a missile ship. Amarr already have the Zealot so why make the Sac more like the Zealot?

Why do you want the Sac to be a laser platform when you already have the Zealot which is the best at that already with four laser bonuses?

---

Originally by: Arabian Goggle

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Originally by: Jim Raynor

---

What's wrong with missiles? Everyone insists they're so overpowered lately I thought Amarr kids would welcome launchers + bonuses on any of their ships.

I think turning the Sac into a pure laser ship is about as retarded as making the Eagle a missile ship. Amarr already have the Zealot so why make the Sac more like the Zealot?

Why do you want the Sac to be a laser platform when you already have the Zealot which is the best at that already with four laser bonuses?

---

There is nothing wrong with missiles Jim. I'm sure they are lots of fun -- for Caldari and Minmatar pilots. My point is that many (not all, but many) Amarr pilots have not trained missile skills because they have had to focus on maximizing turret based skills in order to use them effectively.

Read my post again. I was not advocating a pure laser ship. I was merely saying that perhaps missile bonuses on Amarr ships isn't what Amarr pilots need. Tenp1 stated that all races have/need a second weapon system. I agree with this. You guys seem to think that Amarr ships should be using lasers and missiles, while I argue it should be lasers and nos or EW or maybe even drones, as right now it seems only Gallente are really effective with drones (have a look at the carrier bonuses).

My recommendation: Either give the Sacrilege the laser bonus and let its tank be its defining feature, OR give it a nos or EW bonus.

---

Originally by: Kai Lae

---

Sac would be perfectly good if it replaced 10% optimal range with 5% laser damage. It would be nice if it also had some slot flexibility and had 4/4 turret/missile hardpoints.

As for the demios, Dash doesn't even point out that what he says about ions is true, but the real problem is that even if you go with electrons, a cap injector, and a nos, you still need an RCU to fit it. You can't even fit the smallest medium weapons and fill all of your high slots. A ship that can't be armed without a grid mod if you fill the high slots with medium weapons has powergrid issues and needs to be looked at.

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Originally by: Nafri

---

Not like matari dont have to maximize missles, gunnery and drones to make us out of their ships. Amarr need much more hybrid ships, same for the gallente, its pathetic that a 20 million SP amarr character is nearly maxed out, whereas a 35 mio Matari still has things to train

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Originally by: Arabian Goggle

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I take it you fly minmatar ships. Why should Amarr and Gallente be forced to use other races weapons systems? I can fly minmatar ships too, but I decided to specialize in Amarr because I like LASERS. Tell me if I'm wrong here, but mixed weapon ships < ships dedicated to one weapon type.

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Originally by: j0sephine

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"Why should Amarr and Gallente be forced to use other races weapons systems?"
Because they aren't "other races weapons systems"?

"Extra heavy assault missile. An Amarrian large missile with good capabilities, the Cataclysm was for a long time confined solely to the Amarr armed forces, but exports began some years ago and the missile is now found throughout the universe."

(spot other Amarr- and Gallente-made missiles on the page here)

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Originally by: Kel Dario

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Seems a few here is with me that the sacrilege should be a short range, armour tanked missile/nos boat (thanks Jim and tenp1), and I therefore going to post how I want it's bonuses to be:


Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 10% nosferatu range and amount transfer bonus and 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level

Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 5% heavy missile damage bonus and 5% bonus Missile Launcher RoF per level


Doesn't look to bad huh? I believe these changes would make the sacrilege much more competitive and its Khanid heritage to be something to be proud over for once. Now if we only could teach those laser users that diversity is a GOOD thing...


Kel Dario

---

Originally by: Kel Dario

---

Seems a few here is with me that the sacrilege should be a short range, armour tanked missile/nos boat (thanks Jim and tenp1), and I therefore going to post how I want it's bonuses to be:


Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 10% nosferatu range and amount transfer bonus and 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level

Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 5% heavy missile damage bonus and 5% bonus Missile Launcher RoF per level


Doesn't look to bad huh? I believe these changes would make the sacrilege much more competitive and its Khanid heritage to be something to be proud over for once. Now if we only could teach those laser users that diversity is a GOOD thing...


Kel Dario

---

Originally by: Arabian Goggle

---

Originally by: Nafri

---

Not like matari dont have to maximize missles, gunnery and drones to make us out of their ships. Amarr need much more hybrid ships, same for the gallente, its pathetic that a 20 million SP amarr character is nearly maxed out, whereas a 35 mio Matari still has things to train

---

I take it you fly minmatar ships. Why should Amarr and Gallente be forced to use other races weapons systems? I can fly minmatar ships too, but I decided to specialize in Amarr because I like LASERS. Tell me if I'm wrong here, but mixed weapon ships < ships dedicated to one weapon type.

I'm sorry if it feels unfair to you, but didn't you look ahead before you started training minmatar? Why should the other races suffer from this same problem?

---

Originally by: Dash Ripcock

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Originally by: Kel Dario

---

Seems a few here is with me that the sacrilege should be a short range, armour tanked missile/nos boat (thanks Jim and tenp1), and I therefore going to post how I want it's bonuses to be:


Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 10% nosferatu range and amount transfer bonus and 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level

Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 5% heavy missile damage bonus and 5% bonus Missile Launcher RoF per level


Doesn't look to bad huh? I believe these changes would make the sacrilege much more competitive and its Khanid heritage to be something to be proud over for once. Now if we only could teach those laser users that diversity is a GOOD thing...


Kel Dario

---

Now that sounds a lot more interesting and would bring the Curse and Sacrilege far closer together in terms of heritage.

---

Originally by: Kel Dario

---

Seems a few here is with me that the sacrilege should be a short range, armour tanked missile/nos boat (thanks Jim and tenp1), and I therefore going to post how I want it's bonuses to be:


Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 10% nosferatu range and amount transfer bonus and 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level

Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 5% heavy missile damage bonus and 5% bonus Missile Launcher RoF per level


Doesn't look to bad huh? I believe these changes would make the sacrilege much more competitive and its Khanid heritage to be something to be proud over for once. Now if we only could teach those laser users that diversity is a GOOD thing...


Kel Dario

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Originally by: Alekzander

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P.S.: Hac's are old, get a command cruiser and toss your hac to the garbage can if you want a floating pwnmobile.

---

1. HACs aren't really that old, and no ship or ship class should or ever will be passed over because it isn't part of the current crop.
2. Pwn-mobile? It's pretty easy to take out a HAC if you know what you're doing. All people want is the specialism they afford to be worth the money and time investment.

Originally by: Dash Ripcock

---

Originally by: Jevnikar

---

Originally by: Dash Ripcock

---

Originally by: Jevnikar

---

Everyone here want's to improve PG better damage and everything .. If ccp does all that, you'll probably fit best guns on any ship while having lvl 1 advanced weapon upgrades and still maintain awsome tank and everything else.. there's no point bosting things. specialy when each ship has it's uses and thay are realy well performed for what thay were made.
learn some skill's imo

rgr

---

You obviously don't fly a Deimos!


We're not asking for much, just the ability to use Ion Blaster IIs on a Tech 2 blaster-orientated ship. I have full fitting skills, and as it stands I can't fit a practical Ion setup due to the low CPU and power-grid difference between the Thorax and the Deimos (only 40 PG and 30 CPU for two slots).

I can fit all my other ships exactly how I want to, but alas my Deimos sits gathering dust.

---

i use deimos and i have t2 electrons i use t2 ammo aswell and when you get the chance and do some calculations and then understand the concept of ROF and DPS you'll get the idea that ions compared to electrons.

but i wouldnt mind some pg and cpu but then you would make too good ship that would probably pwn to much and deimos alredy does awsome damage

---

My apologies then.

I know what damage a Deimos can do with T2 Electrons and Void ammunition, but this isn't overly relevant. T2 ammo is available for everyone of every race, so if two opposite parties use it they're back to pre-RMR levels of balance again. It simply does not make sense to have a dedicated blaster ship unable to use med-range blasters. The simple reason why I argue for the Deimos to be able to use Ions is falloff.

A webbed Deimos using Electrons is a dead Deimos - Ions grant you the ability to do some kind of damage from 8-9.9Km towards your target. They simply make an extremely dangerous ship to fly a little bit more survivable, since she spends half the fight on the approach with an enormous signature radius (no thanks to her terrible velocity)!

---

Originally by: Nafri

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Nosferatu boni are overpowered, its sad enough CCP decided to give em to the curse, but a sacrilege with em is a "I win" button

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Originally by: Jevnikar

---

Originally by: Dash Ripcock

---

Originally by: Jevnikar

---

Originally by: Dash Ripcock

---

Originally by: Jevnikar

---

Everyone here want's to improve PG better damage and everything .. If ccp does all that, you'll probably fit best guns on any ship while having lvl 1 advanced weapon upgrades and still maintain awsome tank and everything else.. there's no point bosting things. specialy when each ship has it's uses and thay are realy well performed for what thay were made.
learn some skill's imo

rgr

---

You obviously don't fly a Deimos!


We're not asking for much, just the ability to use Ion Blaster IIs on a Tech 2 blaster-orientated ship. I have full fitting skills, and as it stands I can't fit a practical Ion setup due to the low CPU and power-grid difference between the Thorax and the Deimos (only 40 PG and 30 CPU for two slots).

I can fit all my other ships exactly how I want to, but alas my Deimos sits gathering dust.

---

i use deimos and i have t2 electrons i use t2 ammo aswell and when you get the chance and do some calculations and then understand the concept of ROF and DPS you'll get the idea that ions compared to electrons.

but i wouldnt mind some pg and cpu but then you would make too good ship that would probably pwn to much and deimos alredy does awsome damage

---

My apologies then.

I know what damage a Deimos can do with T2 Electrons and Void ammunition, but this isn't overly relevant. T2 ammo is available for everyone of every race, so if two opposite parties use it they're back to pre-RMR levels of balance again. It simply does not make sense to have a dedicated blaster ship unable to use med-range blasters. The simple reason why I argue for the Deimos to be able to use Ions is falloff.

A webbed Deimos using Electrons is a dead Deimos - Ions grant you the ability to do some kind of damage from 8-9.9Km towards your target. They simply make an extremely dangerous ship to fly a little bit more survivable, since she spends half the fight on the approach with an enormous signature radius (no thanks to her terrible velocity)!

---

:) cant argue here .. i agree on that but shouldn't null take care of that

---

Originally by:
I love how most suggestions are only to turn the sac into a Zealot or a freaking nos overpowered freak ship..quote

---

Nos Overpowered ???, even frigs can operate outside of 12km so are safe from medium nos. Saying medium nos is overpowered is like saying blasters are overpowered against ship under 5km. Ok so it's more dificult to tackle a ships that has nos but then so what, you shouldn't be able to tackle without risk. Besides any ships with heavy launchers and below can kill (nos just weakens it can't kill or prevent you from running) tacklers from a lot longer range than nos. Anyway it's all a mute point if the lame laser rof replacement for the missile ROF goes through. It'll be just another point in favour of the "We should only train turret skills for Amarr" whiners out there.

Originally by: tenp1

---

Edited by: tenp1 on 01/02/2006 21:48:49
The problem deciding what to do with the sacrilege lies in the amarr ship/weapon philosophy combined with being half caldari. This how I view things at the mo, and my reasoning for making the Sac a shortrange misille nos boat.

Minmatar
vagabond - high speed, AC
Muninn - long range Arty alpha strike

Caldari
Cerberus - Missiles
eagle - Rails

Galante
Deimos - Blaster
ishtar - Drones

Amarr
Zealot - lasers, tank
Sacrilege - at present Tank, missiles (many use a nos missile combo).

The other 3 races cover their warfare philosophies with each ship being unique. The zealot fills both standard amarr doctrines, lots armour to tank and lasers, this leaves the sacrilege somewhat without purpose. Ok so it can tank well, though as pointed out by many, the zealot can do the same and deal more damage, move faster and has a lower sig. So then what is there for the sac to do.

EW - Not really much of an option with 4 mids. Besides that, HACS are about damage and taking damage, not EW.

Missiles - A decent choice as it gives a second weapon system to train like the other races. Most sensible pilots would have reasonable missile skills anyway for the other amarr ships that use them. The downside is that the cerberus is the missile HAC, so it would need to have a distinct role for missile use.

Drones - There are 3 drone carriers already amoung the amarr ships, so theoretically many amarr pilots should have decent drone skills. However, the ishtar is already the drone HAC and a similar drone bonus to the curse and pilgerim would make them too similar.

Nos - Nos seems to be something amarr ships are encouraged to use due to the abundance of "utility" slots. The amarr recons both have nos bonus' (as do the bloodraider ships for the amarr bonus) so it would not be out of charachter.

Now bear in mind that the ship is half caldari, that should mean half the bonus' should be as well. The most obvious option is 2xmissile bonus of which we already have a missile ROF bonus, this then leaves the 2xAmarr bonus. The armour resist bonus is a keeper, but with 2xmissile bonus' would the laser cap or laser range bonus be worth having? I think not personally. A tracking disruptor bonus would be pointless as while it would make the sac unique as the only EW HAC, it would not really fit as a HAC bonus. Nos is probably the best choice for the replacement bonus as it is offensive and is already an accepted amarr weapon. Now as the cerberus is "The" long range missile boat and the curse is the long range nos boat, a missile flight time and nos range bonus should be a no go. So we have a short range ship that operates in medium nos range and uses missiles. To me, the obvious bonus' would be a nos amount bonus (5% per lvl like the bloodraider ships would not be OTT and take nothing away from the recons) and a missile damage bonus. Throw in an extra launcher and we have a unique HAC that follows both amarr and caldari designs like it is meant to.

It will not deal as much damage short range as the Cerberus, vagabond or Deimos. It will not be as fast as either the vagabond or Deimos. It will not have the range of the cerberus. What it will have is a better tank and a method to weaken other short range ships tanks as well as being able to operate at longer ranges Than the vaga and deimos (still it's true strengh will be 12km and under). Sounds pretty balanced to me, though i'm probably wrong.

---

Originally by: Dash Ripcock

---

Originally by: Jevnikar

---

Originally by: Dash Ripcock

---

Originally by: Jevnikar

---

Originally by: Dash Ripcock

---

Originally by: Jevnikar

---

Everyone here want's to improve PG better damage and everything .. If ccp does all that, you'll probably fit best guns on any ship while having lvl 1 advanced weapon upgrades and still maintain awsome tank and everything else.. there's no point bosting things. specialy when each ship has it's uses and thay are realy well performed for what thay were made.
learn some skill's imo

rgr

---

You obviously don't fly a Deimos!


We're not asking for much, just the ability to use Ion Blaster IIs on a Tech 2 blaster-orientated ship. I have full fitting skills, and as it stands I can't fit a practical Ion setup due to the low CPU and power-grid difference between the Thorax and the Deimos (only 40 PG and 30 CPU for two slots).

I can fit all my other ships exactly how I want to, but alas my Deimos sits gathering dust.

---

i use deimos and i have t2 electrons i use t2 ammo aswell and when you get the chance and do some calculations and then understand the concept of ROF and DPS you'll get the idea that ions compared to electrons.

but i wouldnt mind some pg and cpu but then you would make too good ship that would probably pwn to much and deimos alredy does awsome damage

---

My apologies then.

I know what damage a Deimos can do with T2 Electrons and Void ammunition, but this isn't overly relevant. T2 ammo is available for everyone of every race, so if two opposite parties use it they're back to pre-RMR levels of balance again. It simply does not make sense to have a dedicated blaster ship unable to use med-range blasters. The simple reason why I argue for the Deimos to be able to use Ions is falloff.

A webbed Deimos using Electrons is a dead Deimos - Ions grant you the ability to do some kind of damage from 8-9.9Km towards your target. They simply make an extremely dangerous ship to fly a little bit more survivable, since she spends half the fight on the approach with an enormous signature radius (no thanks to her terrible velocity)!

---

:) cant argue here .. i agree on that but shouldn't null take care of that

---

Perhaps, although a ship requiring T2 ammunition to be effective obviously needs to be looked at! The basic premise is: Deimos is a blaster ship, Ions are med-range blasters and a Deimos can't fit them i.e. she needs to be revised.

---

Originally by: KilROCK

---

sure then, I want one of my bonus affected by Racial Cruiser skills on my HACS, to be 7.5% then too.

Why is everyone thinking this way? If a HAC becomes slightly better than another hac, you need to boost the other to make up for it.

Sacrilege is getting a boost, Doesn't HAVE to become the best freaking hac at damage, tanking, and everything you want it to be..

---

Originally by: Tuxford

---

Having said that then we have also been talking about the Typhoon but I'm not gonna post anything until it's more final.

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Originally by: FraXy

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Edited by: FraXy on 02/02/2006 19:13:30
I`d just like to make people compare Eagle vs Sacrilege.

*Snip*

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Originally by: FraXy

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Edited by: FraXy on 02/02/2006 19:13:30
I`d just like to make people compare Eagle vs Sacrilege.
... <snip>blablablabla</snip>
Opinions and feedback on my ideas, changes and the use of Sacrilege in PvP are most welcome.

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Originally by: Hanns

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jim raynors cerberus is absolutely insane short term tanker, he can tank like 600 DPS from my zealot while im nossing him, tanking 600DPS!! his HP/sec is uber, and this was before he had crystal omega, now he has the omega, his cerb is uber, id hate to see him in an eagle

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Originally by: FFGR

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Edited by: FFGR on 04/02/2006 05:47:24

Originally by: Hanns

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jim raynors cerberus is absolutely insane short term tanker, he can tank like 600 DPS from my zealot while im nossing him, tanking 600DPS!! his HP/sec is uber, and this was before he had crystal omega, now he has the omega, his cerb is uber, id hate to see him in an eagle

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oh yes ... using some implants that cost ... about 1.5b ?

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Originally by: Meridius

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Originally by: FFGR

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Edited by: FFGR on 04/02/2006 05:47:24

Originally by: Hanns

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jim raynors cerberus is absolutely insane short term tanker, he can tank like 600 DPS from my zealot while im nossing him, tanking 600DPS!! his HP/sec is uber, and this was before he had crystal omega, now he has the omega, his cerb is uber, id hate to see him in an eagle

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oh yes ... using some implants that cost ... about 1.5b ?

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Hanns has the armor equivilent in implants so whats your point?

Right.

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Originally by: Weirda

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with all due respect, while it may be about 'fun setup' for some, it is really about the point of fitting a ML on the ship at all. with missile ROF switched to laser bonus... you are now just talking about another amarr hac that can fit 2 nos with it 4 lasers instead of just one... there is really no point in that, is there?

'pure amarr' wouldn't be flying khanid ship anyways ffs. many amarr (and other race that like flying khanid amarr) see the benefits of the hybrid layout differently. as someone else pointed out, having ML on their sac is really one of the only way to break a minnie HAC tank for example...

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Originally by: Joerd Toastius

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Originally by: Weirda

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with all due respect, while it may be about 'fun setup' for some, it is really about the point of fitting a ML on the ship at all. with missile ROF switched to laser bonus... you are now just talking about another amarr hac that can fit 2 nos with it 4 lasers instead of just one... there is really no point in that, is there?

'pure amarr' wouldn't be flying khanid ship anyways ffs. many amarr (and other race that like flying khanid amarr) see the benefits of the hybrid layout differently. as someone else pointed out, having ML on their sac is really one of the only way to break a minnie HAC tank for example...

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I'd consider myself "pure Amarr" and you're right, I don't fly Khanid ships. Which is the point I'm making - if I stick with the combat philosophy I chose Amarr for, I've only got one T2 ship in each category. This makes me a sad panda.



In related news, would it be heretical to maybe give the Sac a bonus to small lasers? Maybe up its agility too, and turn it into more of a dedicated anti-frig tanker. Allows it to 1) keep or have given back the title of "best tanker", 2) do "good" damage in its intended role while 3) not threatening the HAC damage kings on their own turf. This would mean that with small guns it'd have kinda T1 cruiser-ish damage but with frig tracking, so it'd be an even better anti-frig-mobile without posing any real threat to other HACs. I'm not sure how desirable this is in terms of overall balance - frig pilots might have some strong objections - but it's a more out-of-the-box solution, no?

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