Comments:
- Actually, several people in this thread have stated their desire to nerf both projectiles and lasers. Or just projectiles (which would lead to lasers).
- I didn't say that all damage in falloff is ineffective, so please stop putting words in my mouth. I said that optimal + falloff is not as interesting as optimal and optimal + falloff/2. If you're at optimal + falloff your damage isn't anything to write home about.
- Again, blasters have deeper problems than can be solved by TEs. It is ******* useless to continue bringing them up. Either CCP will boost blasters to the levels of Lasers and Projectiles or they will continue to be useless. If you want to talk about the balance of TEs you should restrict yourself to functional weapons systems.



Yes, this was the right answer. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) that time has long since passed and it is no longer the right answer. CCP must now buff hybrids, which is the direction they're going. After that, they'll need to look at Cruise.

-Liang

Comments:
- Actually, several people in this thread have stated their desire to nerf both projectiles and lasers. Or just projectiles (which would lead to lasers).
- I didn't say that all damage in falloff is ineffective, so please stop putting words in my mouth. I said that optimal + falloff is not as interesting as optimal and optimal + falloff/2. If you're at optimal + falloff your damage isn't anything to write home about.
- Again, blasters have deeper problems than can be solved by TEs. It is ******* useless to continue bringing them up. Either CCP will boost blasters to the levels of Lasers and Projectiles or they will continue to be useless. If you want to talk about the balance of TEs you should restrict yourself to functional weapons systems.



Yes, this was the right answer. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) that time has long since passed and it is no longer the right answer. CCP must now buff hybrids, which is the direction they're going. After that, they'll need to look at Cruise.

-Liang

That is something Mini ships have not lost - they still remain highly versatile in fittings and options. Hybrids and Lasers are both one trick ponies and impose very server load-outs and tactical considerations on the ship/pilot. Eagle is the perfect example of this kind of focused design that symbolizes Amarr and Caldari ship design. So if anyone argues to bring the weapon systems in line also have to propose to completely change the other three races to give them that degree of malleability. If not, then Mini ships and their weapon systems have to be balanced back to being the lowest damaging, highest mobility, lowest tech, highest adaptation race. The jack of all trades class of ships has to trade firepower, tank, and strategic focus for combat options, maneuverability, and a wide range of weapon systems employed. If not, then it will remain imba because it keep all the advantages and loses non of its disadvantages - with the exception of mass battleship fleet fights.

And you goddamn sure said falloff was inferior ....which belied ACs effectiveness against pulse lasers at sane ranges

The argument becomes AC are too close to Pulse lasers considering all the other advantages Minmatar get.

That is something Mini ships have not lost - they still remain highly versatile in fittings and options. Hybrids and Lasers are both one trick ponies and impose very server load-outs and tactical considerations on the ship/pilot. If not, then it will remain imba because it keep all the advantages and loses non of its disadvantages - with the exception of mass battleship fleet fights.

All that said has not change since I've been in-game (bar Introduction of strategic cruisers). Same sh!t different day of the month. Gallente will never be considered good unless they do massive damage or are viable in fleets. What matters most is their viability in fleets for the majority of pilots in this game because that is how most pvp. Minmatar is now good in it all, with the addition of 3 ships to fleet pvp: Hurricane, Tempest, Rupture (i dunno about this one <3). Now my beloved race is used by the masses and it disgusts me...


-proxyyyy

You have the only short range weapons in the game that is competitive with long range weapons outside a small gang setting. This is quite a massive advantage and no amount of exceptionalism is going to get you off the hook of being top dog in one of the most common PvP scenarios in the game.

When I trained up Matar from Gallente and fit my frist Hurricane the first throught through me head was "Whoa that was easy"

No cap concerns, no fitting mods, no ridiculous ranges, overall they just work.

I started Matar and tried to go over to Gallente/ Caldari. I started to try to fit their ships and my initial thought was 'WTF?!?'

Yeah without AWU IV and grid upgrades V its really not worth the trouble lol.

AWU IV?

Bush league, man, bush league.

This thread is not surprising and NO! All that matters was the 'Tracking Enhancer' and Artillery changes. You can take away the ammunition boost (damage increase, damage selection). Things would remain the same with the 'Tracking Enhancer' changes alone, which I don't want changed = )

I was flying Minmatar threw out all the times when they were considered less than even Gallente (Late 2007 - early 2009). Most ships that were viable in fleets still are and the ones that got thrown into fleet pvp. Were the Hurricane for the most part, auto-cannon Tempest, but there was artillery-Tempest and Rupture I suppose.

The same losers that complained about Minmatar being useless and Amarr all powerfull are the same losers fanning this thread with nonsense. Minmatar Didn't suddenly become better than Amarr, Caldari and Gallente. They always were in solo and small gang pvp. But! The 'Tracking Enhancer' boost made Minmatar ships that were already viable in fleets even more so and added the Hurricane and Rupture to the mix. Btw, if the Hurricane didn't become Vagabond like. It would have been the worst tier 2 battle-cruiser in-game (instead of the Harbinger now). I had every intention of replacing it with a Ham/Drake until the changes, in my opinion, saved the Hurricane.

So NO! This whole thing started because pilots are not capable of flying there ships correctly and complained that EVE was not easy. That's why you're able to cross train. That is why not all ships or One Race is NOT excellent in all classes. Gallente rule t2 frigates and solo battleships. Amarr Own Fleet battleships and have one of the best logistic ships in game. MInmatar owns cruiser hulls, Destroyers and T1 frigates and have one of the best logistic ships in-game. Caldari have the best T3, one of the best battlecruisers (Drake) one of the best logistics basilisk and MOF0cking ECM.

All that said has not change since I've been in-game (bar Introduction of strategic cruisers). Same sh!t different day of the month. Gallente will never be considered good unless they do massive damage or are viable in fleets. What matters most is their viability in fleets for the majority of pilots in this game because that is how most pvp. Minmatar is now good in it all, with the addition of 3 ships to fleet pvp: Hurricane, Tempest, Rupture (i dunno about this one <3). Now my beloved race is used by the masses and it disgusts me...


-proxyyyy

Please justify why you believe this. So far, you've just told me the way that it "should be" with absolutely no justification. I'll go out on a limb here and say you are utterly and completely wrong - and claiming that lasers should be the best weapon platform is nothing short of ludicrous.



TEs work the same for everyone. Please stop pretending like they don't.

-Liang

lazers should be the best turret platform because Amarr are the gank and tank race. They trade midslots for lowslots, and those lowslots are used to either fit tank or gank or a combination of both. The suffer the most for fitting mwds due to the cap penalty, so mobility is not their strong suit

The four races must have clearly defined roles - benefits and drawbacks - to fill before we start discussing balance. The payerbase must start accepting that each race should suck in some regards while they shine in other.

winter expansion in short: ccp can make matar even more op... awesome...

Because removing a falloff penalty from a terrible ammunition type which nobody is going to use even after the change is making minmatar more op... how, exactly?

but with all the extra training you have to do to fly Minmatar (a LOT of extra training), nice to have at least some subcap ships on par with other races.

This is a complete myth. The most SP-intensive race is easily Caldari. Minmatar compete with Amarr for being least SP-intensive.

This myth that Minmatar is harder to train is just that. I don't get why it is so popular.

Btw, arti is not the problem - art is difficult to fit and fills the high alpha/low dps niche well. Its ACs that are broken when married to the ships.

yes , more dmg , isnt enough for u?
new tornado with hail 840 dps 64km falloff... imba opshit

Oh! You mean the Tornado which isn't going to be released for another month, is still subject to modification, and which uses large projectiles with no tracking bonus? That tornado?

Please, oh please, try shooting my gallente cruiser/myrm with Hail L. I beg you.

(To give you an idea: With dual webs and a tracking computer loaded with tracking speed, you will still be missing a battleship if you're orbiting it at 2000m, and that's using fusion L. Hail is -30% tracking, for barely any more DPS than republic fleet fusion. And you have the idiocy to call it "overpowered" when they remove a falloff penalty from it?)

There are many reasons why people have accused Minmatar of being OP. This is the stupidest one I've heard yet.

Um. . . I did in the post. With all the justification and reasoning. Mini ships should do the lowest dps even with max skills, and in exchange they get ships that skirmish very well. And if you are not going to respond, then don't bother. The choice is pretty clear to me - either give every race the same degree of flexibility and fitting variations or balance them accordingly (i.e. remove the flavor and balance through standarization). Btw, arti is not the problem - art is difficult to fit and fills the high alpha/low dps niche well. Its ACs that are broken when married to the ships.

lazers should be the best turret platform because Amarr are the gank and tank race. They trade midslots for lowslots, and those lowslots are used to either fit tank or gank or a combination of both. The suffer the most for fitting mwds due to the cap penalty, so mobility is not their strong suit (there are exceptions, but they remain exceptions), and basically thei entire ships is tungsten and lazer. Mini weapon systems are not equal, they overcome that gank and tank with flexibility, a myriad of weapon systems. Anyway, refer to my previous posts for the reasons.

TEs don't work the same for everyone. . . they just don't. When you push falloff out on mini ships and raise the base optimal - you are doing a lot more to improve dps for ACs then any other weapon system.

Again, when coupled with the wide range of falloff bonused ships (that are also high speed) the benefits of TEs on minmatar ships is evidently greater. Which is why you see them fitted on mini ships more then any other.

Also, you don't fit TEs on Amarr ships because it does not fit with the gank and tank, you may fit them on gallente, but with marginal success since falloff on Gallente is an afterthought.

Falloff for Minmatar is damage and options. But you have not argued against this.

A little disappointing Lang - I don't think you are really interested in the debate at all.

This is a complete myth. The most SP-intensive race is easily Caldari. Minmatar compete with Amarr for being least SP-intensive.

omg , why the hell would i orbit at 2km when my weapon has 60km falloff with 6+ km optimal? pls tell me, btw who would use hail vs smaller targets? looks like you have absolutly no idea how pvp works