I'm reading everywhere that Minmatar is being the race that needs the most sp to be efficient. Because of the Typhoon and the Cyclone? I agree for these two ships. But please, compare amarr ships weapon systems with minmatar ships:

AF :
Amarr : laser , rocket - Armour
Minmatar : projectile - Shield - Armour

EAF :
Amarr : drone, TD, Neuts
Minmatar : projectile, Webs, TP

Inty :
Amarr : laser, rocket
Minmatar : projectile

Recon :
Amarr : drones + heavy missiles (curse), armor (pilgrim), shield (curse), TD, Neuts
Minmatar : projectile - + Heavy Missiles (Huginn) + Drones (both) - Shield, Webs, TP

HAC :
Amarr : laser, HAM - Armour - Shield
Minmatar : projectile - Shield

T3 :
Amarr : laser, HAM - Armour
Minmatar : projectile - Armour - Shield - Missiles

So I did a little test - put 3 L turrets on an unbonused ship (dread) and stuck a couple of tracking enhancers(which according to posters work best for minmatar)

With t2 long range ammo I get

800AC -7.8 +59 , DPS:40
Pulse - 58+16 , DPS:44
Blast - 15+26 , DPS:52

Unless my 8 years of eve online have taught me wrong 59km of falloff and 40 dps is significantly less than 58 optimal and 44 DPS, and blasters are just like a sword - deadly close up but ultimately melee weapons at gun fights.

Obviously the guns that need nerfing are the lazors - we should really nerf them good - their optimal , at least 3 seconds for exchanging the lenses and of course we should give them less DPS than AC's since they work in optimal and AC's in falloff.

or maybe give hybrids some more range instead of the stupid DPS increase I mean what good is all the DPS in the world when you can't apply it.

OK so

Eagle still sucks

Rokh is still the best sniper in useless theoretical scenario

Ferox well at least they are cheap.

Did I miss anything?

No. Read again. I said that the additional drone skills required for Minmatar (heavies, sentries) could be regarded as equivalent to the additional ewar skills needed for Caldari. Griffin, Blackbird, Rook, Falcon, Scorpion, Kitsune, Widow form an entire line of T1 and T2 ships whose primary weapon system is ECM, requiring the rank 4 optimal, rank 2 falloff, rank 5 strength skill and rank 3 basic skills. It's absurd to dismiss this as you've done, and the rather pathetic line of painter ships cannot be compared,. In any case, as soon as you include capitals - and I'm sure you'll want to bring the Naglfar up - you'll find that Caldari now needs all of the drone skills anyway.

Falcon, Scorpion and occasionally Raven use armour buffers. Really, the SP required for armour buffer is pretty small, I'm happy to offset that against the additional Caldari ewar skills needed too, makes it about equal. Assuming that SP requirements of projectiles and hybrids are equal (ha controlled bursts), that just leaves missiles, a skill tree longer than any single turret tree, but one that Minmatar can enter at points of their choosing for their few missile boats, while Caldari has to train the whole thing.

I knew you'd react like this, you've grown old and stubborn. The difference is that Minmatar have a few ships with split weapons, while Caldari is a split race.

Every race is easy to train for. Leave the bitch-fits to the gals on Jersey Shore you two.

So basically the anti-minmatar arguement is:

I don't like it and I know better than the devs.

Sorry I don't think you do, I don't think you have much of a clue at all about this game to be honest.

Its about tradeoff, if you don't like the trade-off you have made playing amarr (armour > speed) then try playing another race.
They all have their different play-style. Minmatar style isn't superior to any of the others, its just different and probably the most annoying to fight against but that doesn't make it more powerful. All your defences are active (speed) which means keeping up transversal, not getting warped in on/probed, staying out of range, all at the same time WHILE at the same point taking down your enemy.

All the other races have less dependence on manuvering and more 'resistance' to messing up due to larger tanks allowing them to pull it out of the fire. Of course if the enemy gang is large enough it doesn't matter how much tank you have but thats more a problem with damage scaling in fleets than anything else.

Game has to have variety - different strokes and all that jazz. If all were the same we would be playing a first person shooter.

omg

I know you have no clue about balance.

So what is the tradeoff between gall and matar ? less speed , weapon use cap , less range , fixed dmg types, slower lock hmm for like 5% dps advantage , that is not a tradeoff but complet disadvantage without any real compensation
Minmatar style isnt superior ?? yeah sure dictacting range in small fleets is the most important thing , and in large fleets breaking up enemy fleet remote reps with huge alpha is also one of the best thing

yeah gallente is less dependant on manuvering than matar , oh and has more resistance too just look at deimos vs vaga we can completly see you are right.... or not

The problem is not matar is the speed race , the problem is it has as much dmg or more than gallente and even has as much buffer tank too.

Yay, comparing Minmatar (a working race) to Gallente (a not working race) and claiming that Minmatar is overpowered. You could make the same comparison to Amarr and claim that Amarr is overpowered. Good job slick. -_-

-Liang

and you say what?? oh dont nerf matar dont nerf matar bruhuhu

Defending matar to bitter end yeah... just as usual , you are liang after all.

I love how you pretend you were against projectile buff...

- Its very dangerous to combine nerfs to one system and buffs to a competing system in the same patch. We should wait and see where Hybrids end up before making a case that projectiles need nerfed.

While the future is still pretty hazy, I think we're going to eventually see a Minmatar/projectile nerf. I just want it to be for the right reasons and actually address the heart of the matter.

"
Balance is best achieved by small incremental changes and careful measuring of the effects in all areas. "

oh yes then the next patch should give 0,05% more tracking and see if something will change for half year
so maybe in year 40k we will have a balanced game....

no balance should be made by design and assumptions not small little steps , you should try to hit the best spot with the fist shot,
you will see if it miss by a long shot then recalibrate , do this until it you are fine with the result
these babysteps are only good for liang and bunch of other matarboys who still can use their imba ships for another half year
and ofcourse lazy ccp tallest+team , it doesnt take much manpower to come op with something meaningfull especially with the help of community , if they cant that says they are uncapable of it should be fired and hire new staff

Not true , community never asked for such a huge buff.

While the future is still pretty hazy, I think we're going to eventually see a Minmatar/projectile nerf. I just want it to be for the right reasons and actually address the heart of the matter.

-Liang

Did you notice they used Grimpak's idea on the Tornado? That's probably their future direction.

Falloff was changed from 10% per level to 5% per level. The Grimpak Idea is to do this to all ships that currently have the falloff bonus as they are the worst offenders.

Falloff was changed from 10% per level to 5% per level. The Grimpak Idea is to do this to all ships that currently have the falloff bonus as they are the worst offenders.