A real fix would be to nerf Minmatar speed so that it's possible for catch them in a blasterboat.

Bad idea, obviously result of EFT warrioring. The only larger ships with 10% falloff bonus are expensive boats like Mach, Vargur and Sleipnir. 10% falloff bonus from small boats like Wolf doesn't make it as op due to the speed in that class.

Vargur is bad for pvp. Machs and Sleipnir are too expensive to field en mass. It's the cheap non-10% falloff bonused boats, like canes and rifters, seen in every corner of Eve, that made Winmatar what it is.

A real fix would be to nerf Minmatar speed so that it's possible for catch them in a blasterboat.

It seems like it might be prudent to see where the hybrid weapon and ship changes land before complaining about this particular problem. But hey, we could always massively boost hybrids and then massively nerf projectiles because that's not going to cause problems at all.

/facepalm

-Liang

Im going to shrink the rest of this



The hybrid "buff" so far has been laughable. Less fittings? 5% tracking? But you're right, massive boost or nerf of weapon systems can cause problems, which is why the underlying cause of Winmatar - speed - should be looked at.

How does AC stack up against Scorch? What gives? Speed. When ppl whine about AC, what they're really whining about is getting kited - speed. Range or speed -> pick one.

The hybrid "buff" so far has been laughable. Less fittings? 5% tracking? But you're right, massive boost or nerf of weapon systems can cause problems, which is why the underlying cause of Winmatar - speed - should be looked at.

How does AC stack up against Scorch? What gives? Speed. When ppl whine about AC, what they're really whining about is getting kited - speed. Range or speed -> pick one.

The hybrid "buff" so far has been laughable. Less fittings? 5% tracking? But you're right, massive boost or nerf of weapon systems can cause problems, which is why the underlying cause of Winmatar - speed - should be looked at.

How does AC stack up against Scorch? What gives? Speed. When ppl whine about AC, what they're really whining about is getting kited - speed. Range or speed -> pick one.

I wouldn't laugh at "Less fittings". One of the primary causes of Winmatar is the fact that they are stupidly easy to fit in comparison to other races.

Less fittings, less cap use, 10% damage and 5% tracking to rails, 5% damage and 20% tracking to blasters, faster and more agile ships, faster reloads, smaller ammo (and more cap charges), and more.... -_-

-Liang

Most of the complaints I have seen, aren't that you can kite easily in Minnie ships but more that they can disengage so easily. I dont necessarily agree with this as you can get a kiting fit on most races ships (minus Gallente) that will also have this trait.

I wouldn't laugh at "Less fittings". One of the primary causes of Winmatar is the fact that they are stupidly easy to fit in comparison to other races.

Dude if the hybrid fittings change went just a little bit further... oh god. Just a tiny bit... >:-)

-Liang

Less fittings, less cap use, 10% damage and 5% tracking to rails, 5% damage and 20% tracking to blasters, faster and more agile ships, faster reloads, smaller ammo (and more cap charges), and more.... -_-

-Liang

True kiting - being both faster while outranging you - is uniquely Winmatar, and there's no way to beat it, which is what's causing all the whine. You don't stand a chance.

You don't hear people call amar boat with Scorch "kiting," because it's slower. You can eventually catch up if you don't pop first. You stand a chance.

Yes, you can nano fit to kit something... other than nano Minmatar. The speed at which your nano fit levels off will always be slower than that of the equivalent Minmatar boat.

Discussion veers towar the topic of hybrids:

DRAKE DRAKE DRAKE DRAKE DRAKE

lol

How much have you had to drink tonight?

?

so you agree with goose99 that kiting is only possible with minmatar ships?

I hope you're following me, space buddy, because it's about to get furious.

Break it down to the basics:

Amarr should be masters of medium range. Nice optimal. Poorer tracking up close.

Gallente should be masters of point blank combat. We'll see how they fare once the changes hit TQ.

Minmatar thread the needle between the two and are masters of neither. They can control the range though and either get under the Amarr's lasors or stay out of the range of blasters.

Now let's suppose for the sake of argument that the Gallente are once again masters of short range. Let's also suppose that they can now more easily close the gap with Amarr. Would people use them? High risk and do or die vs. the Winmatar platform that doesn't have to risk it all every time.

When Minmatar are out of wack the game notices alot more. When ships were going super fast in the nano age - Amarr medium range meant absolutely nothing. When the range of Minmatar ships got drastically increased - almost doubling in some cases - Gallente are completely shut out. In the old days that kiting window was 5km - 10km. You can make a mistake in that window. You can get caught. Not so much when your window is 20km+

Nerfing ACs into the ground won't change ****. A new FOTM will be out in as little as 2 weeks.

Irrespective of the merits for nerfing the Minmatar ships and the modules that support them expressed in this thread, I have issue with the concept of nerfing things in general as a solution. Nerfing and balancing are not the same thing. Nerfing a thing merely creates a temporary power vacuum which is then promptly filled by the next flavor of the month. This is as much true in EVE Online as it is in other MMOs, where you can observe a pattern of things being nerfed only to have some other thing being decried as overpowered a few weeks later by the same people.

More than that, I think it reeks of cowardice and laziness. Why nerf anything? I personally think there is a lot of satisfaction to be had in watching my alliance mates log in by the hundreds and slam themselves into super-capital ships in their disposable battle cruisers. Is this indicative of a power imbalance? Sure. Should something be done about it? Yes, and in fact something is being done about it in Crucible. But was it necessary? That's where I am unsure. Sure, you can say that I am comparing apples to oranges when I liken Minmatar sub-capitals to super-capitals in general, but the point remains the sameGÇöthere is a thing, commonly called out as being overpowered and imbalanced, which can and demonstrably has been taken down through numbers, through tactics, or through some other tool available to the players.

We can do so much more than whinge on the forums about imbalances. If we truly believe that A Thing is imbalanced, then perhaps the single best way to force change is to overwhelmingly embrace it or analyse and adopt whatever mechanics make that particular Thing so good and apply it to other Things. Hurricanes with AutoCannons and Medium Energy Neutralizers was the Clusterfuck Coalition's response to the proliferation of super-capitals, and it works; but, with greater or fewer numbers one could just as easily have used Armageddons or Thoraxes to accomplish the same thing.

We have within us, each and every one of us, the capacity for innovative thinking and adaptability. Let us use it!

Whinging on forums just makes us appear weak, lazy, and cowardly.

Overcoming obstacles puts us in control of the game.

Minmatar thread the needle between the two and are masters of neither. They can control the range though and either get under the Amarr's lasors or stay out of the range of blasters.

Of course it would, but it would be nice to have FOTMs change once in a while - that's why it's called FOTM.

Minmatar has been the Flavour of the last years, if you disregard the minor gap between the nano nerf and projectile boost (where they still were great but the nano crowd was sulking because they weren't invulnerable anymore).

I can fly all races, but it would be nice to actually have a reason to fly anything but winmatar except very few niches.

How is a Cane supposed to get under a Harb's lasers? Getting that close just turns the fight into a straight up DPS/EHP race, which your typical shield cane loses to a plated Harb.

That's a crappy example as you have 250m+ ships shooting at eachother with weapons that have 125m resolution. Try cruiser to cruiser. The pulses will still hit but it's alot more 'barely scratched'.