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Enough is Enough: Nerf Minmatar

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Hannibal Ord Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group 31	Posted - 2011.11.01 16:35:00 - [61] - Quote Alara IonStorm wrote: Hannibal Ord wrote: When I look at Long range weapons I look at 100km + for mediums and 150+ for large weapons. You seem to think that anything above point range it long range. 35-60 is where most fights get maneuvered to. Warp to/Probe Mechanics make it to hard to keep a fight out at those ranges and the enemy from escaping. Hannibal Ord wrote: Basically you are asking for a Scorch nerf, when it shares such similar properties to Barrage. I will agree Beams need something to balance themselves against Arties, but if you nerf Scorch well we should also nerf Barrage. If we make everything nice and close range that's fine, and blasters will just then **** all over both weapon systems again. Never said nerf Barrage directly. I would however say Nerf Large Barrage and Large Scorch and keep medium Scorch and Barrage the way they are. That along with buffing Medium LR Weapons would great in my books. Then are asking really for a mechanics of game change. Most fights do happen between 15-60, which from my point of view is close range only. And it's here why blasters are so outclassed because their vision of short range is basically 0-20km. Both Minmatar and Amarr (and Caldari with missiles) are fine in this 15-60 envelope. But LR generally is looked upon being 100KM plus (for Sniper HACS) and 100KM-200KM for Sniper BS. The problems at these ranges are a recent occurrence because of ease of probing mechanics. Before the changes to probing, 150km was a very typical fighting range.
Paragon Renegade The Multinational Company. 62	Posted - 2011.11.01 16:36:00 - [62] - Quote Buff Hybrids & Missles, and make them the same quality as lasers & Projectiles. Nerfing isn't the be-all-end-all of game balancing, as most of the people here seem to think. Also, making one weapon system weaker while simultaneously making other ones stronger is absolutely, abjectly stupid. "Man, you aren't actually trying to do this, right? Nobody is that stupid right?" "How wrong you are"
Jaroslav Unwanted Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 30	Posted - 2011.11.01 16:36:00 - [63] - Quote balance hmm hmm just remove every ship every weapon system all ammo all modules .. make one ship with F1-F4 prefitted .. there you go you got balance, welcome to street fighter series EVE.
Zarnak Wulf Amok. Goonswarm Federation 31	Posted - 2011.11.01 16:39:00 - [64] - Quote Zagam wrote: I have an idea! Lets balance all races and weapons at the same time! Everyone gets pillows to hit each other with (Amarr get yellow ones, Minmatar get red ones, etc.). Everyone also gets a couch cushion fort to hide within. This solution would be on the same level as most of the debate regarding weapon systems balance, and may also be slightly complex for some people's comprehension. A game this size should have rebalancing with almost every single patch. There's absolutely no reason that in a few weeks or months after the projectile nerf for CCP not to notice that it was too much. How many clues can you get? Fleets of shield canes tend to give it away.... The fact that people are entrenched now and have poured time and effort getting into ships that are "Winmatar" is just as bad as the situation itself. CCP should tweak, step back, tweak again, etc. Eve-O has never gotten that attention.
ITTigerClawIK Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers 36	Posted - 2011.11.01 16:40:00 - [65] - Quote Destination SkillQueue wrote: Lharanai wrote: and what about us poor Amarr? Won't somebody please think of the children!?! I'm sure CCP can give some tender and loving nerfbat action to the Amarr too, if you really want it so badly. .... i will kill you both.
Trainwreck McGee Ghost Ship Inc. 95	Posted - 2011.11.01 16:40:00 - [66] - Quote nerf yo face biatch MINMATAR $ LIFE CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool
Paragon Renegade The Multinational Company. 62	Posted - 2011.11.01 16:42:00 - [67] - Quote Zarnak Wulf wrote: Zagam wrote: I have an idea! Lets balance all races and weapons at the same time! Everyone gets pillows to hit each other with (Amarr get yellow ones, Minmatar get red ones, etc.). Everyone also gets a couch cushion fort to hide within. This solution would be on the same level as most of the debate regarding weapon systems balance, and may also be slightly complex for some people's comprehension. A game this size should have rebalancing with almost every single patch. There's absolutely no reason that in a few weeks or months after the projectile nerf for CCP not to notice that it was too much. How many clues can you get? Fleets of shield canes tend to give it away.... The fact that people are entrenched now and have poured time and effort getting into ships that are "Winmatar" is just as bad as the situation itself. CCP should tweak, step back, tweak again, etc. Eve-O has never gotten that attention. From all I've seen, Minmatar ships are just as common as Caldari & Amarr ones, and slightly more common than Gallente. Seriously, any semblance of tactics or use of intelligence can defeat a "Winmatar" just as easily as any Caldari or Amarr ship. "Man, you aren't actually trying to do this, right? Nobody is that stupid right?" "How wrong you are"
Zarnak Wulf Amok. Goonswarm Federation 31	Posted - 2011.11.01 16:48:00 - [68] - Quote Paragon Renegade wrote: Zarnak Wulf wrote: Zagam wrote: I have an idea! Lets balance all races and weapons at the same time! Everyone gets pillows to hit each other with (Amarr get yellow ones, Minmatar get red ones, etc.). Everyone also gets a couch cushion fort to hide within. This solution would be on the same level as most of the debate regarding weapon systems balance, and may also be slightly complex for some people's comprehension. A game this size should have rebalancing with almost every single patch. There's absolutely no reason that in a few weeks or months after the projectile nerf for CCP not to notice that it was too much. How many clues can you get? Fleets of shield canes tend to give it away.... The fact that people are entrenched now and have poured time and effort getting into ships that are "Winmatar" is just as bad as the situation itself. CCP should tweak, step back, tweak again, etc. Eve-O has never gotten that attention. From all I've seen, Minmatar ships are just as common as Caldari & Amarr ones, and slightly more common than Gallente. Seriously, any semblance of tactics or use of intelligence can defeat a "Winmatar" just as easily as any Caldari or Amarr ship. I would suggest looking at PvP ships used the most.
Rhinanna Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 55	Posted - 2011.11.01 16:55:00 - [69] - Quote Most likely OP is a bad pilot. Minmatar ships have the lowest tank and are the hardest to fly, they ONLY work if you calculate the correct range for this particular enemy and HOLD that range while you kill the enemy. OP most likely has no idea how to fly minmatar himself, can't do it so now he wants to nerf it because much better pilots can defeat him using it. Deal with it, a better pilot will defeat you no matter what he is flying really, work out how to defeat minmatar and play to that advantage. HINT: A minmatar ship that can't manuver easily (web, scram) is a dead minmatar ship against any equal foe. Its only their greater agility that allow them to stand a chance. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it! Other names: Drenzul (WoT, WoW, Lineage 2, WarH, BloodBowl, BSG, SC2 and lots more)-á
Paragon Renegade The Multinational Company. 62	Posted - 2011.11.01 16:59:00 - [70] - Quote Zarnak Wulf wrote: I would suggest looking at PvP ships used the most. Hurricane, Drake, Myrmidon, Megathron, Dominix, Rifter, Harbinger, Taranis.......... wut Minmatar rely on speed & versatility, but against any decent foe of equal ability in their optimal range, they get slaughtered "Man, you aren't actually trying to do this, right? Nobody is that stupid right?" "How wrong you are"

Onictus Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge 6	Posted - 2011.11.01 17:03:00 - [71] - Quote Paragon Renegade wrote: Zarnak Wulf wrote: I would suggest looking at PvP ships used the most. Hurricane, Drake, Myrmidon, Megathron, Dominix, Rifter, Harbinger, Taranis.......... wut Minmatar rely on speed & versatility, but against any decent foe of equal ability in their optimal range, they get slaughtered RankShipsKills 1Drake933 2Hurricane878 3Dramiel378 4Cynabal287 5Harbinger268 6Sabre248 7Tengu246 8Manticore233 9Vagabond224 10Loki188 11Rapier177 12Machariel173 13Capsule156 14Hound155 15Rifter127 16Tempest110 17Zealot110 18Falcon105 19Armageddon101 20Abaddon95 ....and methinks you have a different idea of optimal, AC's have shorter optimals than blasters....by half. Matar have falloff for days though.
Alara IonStorm RvB - BLUE Republic 277	Posted - 2011.11.01 17:04:00 - [72] - Quote Paragon Renegade wrote: Zarnak Wulf wrote: I would suggest looking at PvP ships used the most. Hurricane, Drake, Myrmidon, Megathron, Dominix, Rifter, Harbinger, Taranis.......... wut Minmatar rely on speed & versatility, but against any decent foe of equal ability in their optimal range, they get slaughtered Said PvP ships that are used the most, not the ones you wish were used the most. Hurricane, Drake, Abbadon, Maelstrom, Vagabond, Cynabal, Zealot, Dramiel, Hound, Tengu, Armageddon, Tempest.......... These ships are the most prominent on the top ten. The ones you listed are ok but not all that great.
Paragon Renegade The Multinational Company. 62	Posted - 2011.11.01 17:07:00 - [73] - Quote Alara IonStorm wrote: [quote=Paragon Renegade] Hurricane, Drake, Myrmidon, Megathron, Dominix, Rifter, Harbinger, Taranis.......... These ships are the most prominent on the top ten. The ones you listed are ok but not all that great. Taranis' kick ass :3 But I just listed the ones I've seen the most, to illustrate the point that the preponderance of Minmatar is not nearly as large as one thinks. Minmatar ships are easy to use well, but really difficult to use exceptionally well. Don't confuse being versatile with being above & beyond. "Man, you aren't actually trying to do this, right? Nobody is that stupid right?" "How wrong you are"
Jaroslav Unwanted Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 31	Posted - 2011.11.01 17:08:00 - [74] - Quote Onictus wrote: Paragon Renegade wrote: Zarnak Wulf wrote: I would suggest looking at PvP ships used the most. Hurricane, Drake, Myrmidon, Megathron, Dominix, Rifter, Harbinger, Taranis.......... wut Minmatar rely on speed & versatility, but against any decent foe of equal ability in their optimal range, they get slaughtered RankShipsKills 1Drake933 2Hurricane878 3Dramiel378 4Cynabal287 5Harbinger268 6Sabre248 7Tengu246 8Manticore233 9Vagabond224 10Loki188 11Rapier177 12Machariel173 13Capsule156 14Hound155 15Rifter127 16Tempest110 17Zealot110 18Falcon105 19Armageddon101 20Abaddon95 ....and methinks you have a different idea of optimal, AC's have shorter optimals than blasters....by half. Matar have falloff for days though. Nerf the Capsule its being used too much. Really ... All those statistic you can scrap prove nothing at all. If we talking about PvP, it depends on fleet composition and purpose of such fleet than you chose ships for it. Dominixes are not that bad last time i checked, however you will hardly use them in massive fleet engagements.
Onictus Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge 6	Posted - 2011.11.01 17:10:00 - [75] - Quote Jaroslav Unwanted wrote: Onictus wrote: Paragon Renegade wrote: Zarnak Wulf wrote: I would suggest looking at PvP ships used the most. Hurricane, Drake, Myrmidon, Megathron, Dominix, Rifter, Harbinger, Taranis.......... wut Minmatar rely on speed & versatility, but against any decent foe of equal ability in their optimal range, they get slaughtered RankShipsKills 1Drake933 2Hurricane878 3Dramiel378 4Cynabal287 5Harbinger268 6Sabre248 7Tengu246 8Manticore233 9Vagabond224 10Loki188 11Rapier177 12Machariel173 13Capsule156 14Hound155 15Rifter127 16Tempest110 17Zealot110 18Falcon105 19Armageddon101 20Abaddon95 ....and methinks you have a different idea of optimal, AC's have shorter optimals than blasters....by half. Matar have falloff for days though. Nerf the Capsule its being used too much. Really ... All those statistic you can scrap prove nothing at all. If we talking about PvP, it depends on fleet composition and purpose of such fleet than you chose ships for it. Dominixes are not that bad last time i checked, however you will hardly use them in massive fleet engagements. I dunno, in my neck of low-sec its almost exactly what eve-kills says. Drakes, Canes, Rifters, Cyna's Vaga, snipe macks nano-pests and the occasional PL bait maller...that we align blow to hell, and dodge the incoming super blob.
Alara IonStorm RvB - BLUE Republic 277	Posted - 2011.11.01 17:11:00 - [76] - Quote Paragon Renegade wrote: But I just listed the ones I've seen the most, to illustrate the point that the preponderance of Minmatar is not nearly as large as one thinks. Minmatar ships are easy to use well, but really difficult to use exceptionally well. Don't confuse being versatile with being above & beyond. Point out the Ship that uses Hybrids or the Amarr Ship that does not need Scorch to be on that list. Bombs Autocannons Scorch(Not Lasers, Scorch) Heavy Missiles Artillery = Balance
Paragon Renegade The Multinational Company. 62	Posted - 2011.11.01 17:13:00 - [77] - Quote Onictus wrote: I dunno, in my neck of low-sec its almost exactly what eve-kills says. Drakes, Canes, Rifters, Cyna's Vaga, snipe macks nano-pests and the occasional PL bait maller...that we align blow to hell, and dodge the incoming super blob. Now, just to clarify a point; I'd like if the other factions were beefed-up a bit, which they're doing in the winter anyway. My stance is that nerfing the minmatar ships so close to the update would be a short-sighted decision & a bad move. :3 "Man, you aren't actually trying to do this, right? Nobody is that stupid right?" "How wrong you are"
Paragon Renegade The Multinational Company. 62	Posted - 2011.11.01 17:15:00 - [78] - Quote Alara IonStorm wrote: [quote=Paragon Renegade] Point out the Ship that uses Hybrids or the Amarr Ship that does not need Scorch to be on that list. Bombs Autocannons Scorch(Not Lasers, Scorch) Heavy Missiles Artillery = Balance I don't recall saying the other races didn't need to be looked at. "Man, you aren't actually trying to do this, right? Nobody is that stupid right?" "How wrong you are"
Alara IonStorm RvB - BLUE Republic 277	Posted - 2011.11.01 17:16:00 - [79] - Quote Paragon Renegade wrote: I don't recall saying the other races didn't need to be looked at. Start with 1400mm Artillery and L Scorch.
Paragon Renegade The Multinational Company. 62	Posted - 2011.11.01 17:18:00 - [80] - Quote Alara IonStorm wrote: Paragon Renegade wrote: I don't recall saying the other races didn't need to be looked at. Start with 1400mm Artillery and L Scorch. Is there a disagreemnet here? I sure as hell don't see one. "Man, you aren't actually trying to do this, right? Nobody is that stupid right?" "How wrong you are"

Alara IonStorm RvB - BLUE Republic 277	Posted - 2011.11.01 17:20:00 - [81] - Quote Paragon Renegade wrote: Alara IonStorm wrote: Paragon Renegade wrote: I don't recall saying the other races didn't need to be looked at. Start with 1400mm Artillery and L Scorch. Is there a disagreemnet here? I sure as hell don't see one. You would only ask if you are looking for one. Page Snipe.
Paragon Renegade The Multinational Company. 62	Posted - 2011.11.01 17:22:00 - [82] - Quote Alara IonStorm wrote: You would only ask if you are looking for one. Page Snipe. AC's > Snipers Nub :3 Just messin' wit' ya' "Man, you aren't actually trying to do this, right? Nobody is that stupid right?" "How wrong you are"
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 59	Posted - 2011.11.01 17:26:00 - [83] - Quote Remove all minmatar hulls from the game. Except the Typhoon Fleet Issue.
Barakkus 988	Posted - 2011.11.01 17:27:00 - [84] - Quote Enough is enough, nerf Zarnak Wulf.
Lord Ryan True Xero 71	Posted - 2011.11.01 17:30:00 - [85] - Quote Barakkus wrote: Enough is enough, nerf Zarnak Wulf. Is that the new 5th race rookie ship? I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes.
Rhinanna Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 56	Posted - 2011.11.01 17:36:00 - [86] - Quote Zarnak Wulf wrote: Zagam wrote: I have an idea! Lets balance all races and weapons at the same time! Everyone gets pillows to hit each other with (Amarr get yellow ones, Minmatar get red ones, etc.). Everyone also gets a couch cushion fort to hide within. This solution would be on the same level as most of the debate regarding weapon systems balance, and may also be slightly complex for some people's comprehension. A game this size should have rebalancing with almost every single patch. There's absolutely no reason that in a few weeks or months after the projectile nerf for CCP not to notice that it was too much. How many clues can you get? Fleets of shield canes tend to give it away.... The fact that people are entrenched now and have poured time and effort getting into ships that are "Winmatar" is just as bad as the situation itself. CCP should tweak, step back, tweak again, etc. Eve-O has never gotten that attention. Strange, 'cane fleets are RARE, drake fleets are more common. Clearly missiles must need nerfing by your reasoning, they are far more numerous than 'cane fleets. Also, PLEASE try doing damage out to 30km with a mid sized AC, even with barrage fitted, other than on the few falloff boosted ships with TC/TE in quite a few slots, you are down to below 50% dps. Can we hit? Yes, for under half the damage lasers are doing at that range and decreasing massively from that point. There is simple NO excuse for thinking projectiles need nerfing except a sheer lack of skill, like the other weapon systems they have their weaknesses which includes the shortest optimal of all 3 guns only slightly compensated for by the long fall-off. In general you'll find the dps of projectiles is almost always lower than that of Lasers unless you are sitting on the target at zero. But hey, lets not let minor things like facts get in the way of a good nerf call right? -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it! Other names: Drenzul (WoT, WoW, Lineage 2, WarH, BloodBowl, BSG, SC2 and lots more)-á
Rico Minali Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension 114	Posted - 2011.11.01 17:41:00 - [87] - Quote Its about tactics not making all ships vanilla flavour. If a Hellcat fleet is kept at range, Alpha fleet rocks, if that Hellcat fleet gets a warpin due to great FCing/scouting Alpha fleet dies. Tactics please, lets keep combat as tactical as we can, if you make all ships equal the game really does just come down to who brings more ships. Ships should NOT be equal, tehy should have advantages and disadvantages, keep combat interesting, or rather, make it even more interesting.
Barakkus 990	Posted - 2011.11.01 17:43:00 - [88] - Quote Lord Ryan wrote: Barakkus wrote: Enough is enough, nerf Zarnak Wulf. Is that the new 5th race rookie ship? I think it comes with 3 built in wcs.
Morganta Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia 230	Posted - 2011.11.01 22:46:00 - [89] - Quote Trin Javidan wrote: it is not the gun type that is wrong its the ship layout. Actuve tank and passive armour tank recuire more power grip witch those both fail to have (see gallente). Take a look at the 2 best roaming ships for 0.0. The hurricane and the vaga. Its the slot leyout that is the problem, the dual neut cane is over powerd but only because of the 2 neuts and the falloff from those 2 or 3 tracking enhancers. The shield extenders make it possibel to fit 2 gyro and tracking and 2 neuts, its the slot layout that makes it overpowerd not the weapon system ugh, you need to not look at specs as much as try and fly the fit you are speaking about sure you have 2 neuts, big deal, if the neuts are the line where the cane becomes OP then you are the one with a problem, not the cane. a fully fitted shield cane has a terrible tank, 35k or so and an awful recharge rate, all it does is give you a little time, and in some cases hardly any. those big bad neuts are there pretty much for frig and ceptor defense. if you try and get in to neut range, you are in someone else's neut range, and a heavy can drain an actively fighting cane in about 5-10 seconds. there's a tradeoff for everything an armor cane had much better tank (well... 10-15k better anyhow) but its gimped on the gyros and TEs so the best you can do is pop in sebos and a web or something in the mids and rocks on the highs because that 1600mm plate kills your neut power so now you have a fast lock slow boat with a marginal tank and bottom rung DPS with the shield you get the DPS, you get the marginally effective neuts, better speed, long lock times and either better resists or a point, oh and don't forget the crappy tank just ask the moon warriors how long my cane lasts when 20 of em alpha me. its about 10-15 seconds these days The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy
Sebastian N Cain Aliastra Gallente Federation 9	Posted - 2011.11.01 22:51:00 - [90] - Quote What are you saying, minmatar just got massively nerfed! Hail ammo will become significantly more expensive. "You either need less science fiction or more medication." "Or less medication and more ammo!"



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