Discuss.

Two thoughts:

• Lose the ~9% DPS increase that short range ammo got with the projectile buff. The purification of damage type was more then enough.

• Reduce the tracking enhancer falloff bonus from 30% to 15%.

Discuss.

Too bad. I prefer fun and balanced to the "I win" button.

Remove 1/2/4 (S/M/L) damage from the ammo.
Increase fitting requirement slightly for autos.

Two thoughts:

• Lose the ~9% DPS increase that short range ammo got with the projectile buff. The purification of damage type was more then enough.

• Reduce the tracking enhancer falloff bonus from 30% to 15%.

Discuss.

and what about us poor Amarr?
Won't somebody please think of the children!?!

Sensible changes. This and a little increase in fitting requirements should bring projectiles back in line with the other weapons.

only its pretty foolish to nerf one thing just prior to buffing everything else

Get us back to Eve on hard mode.

You call what that Blog had as a serious buff?

Hahahaha cute.

[quote=Zarnak Wulf]

You're really pressing this troll for a character not even 2 years old, talking about "Eve on hard mode" and such.

when you make wide sweeping changes (or proposed ones) to deal with balance issues, you don't go and change some other aspect prior to it.

If you nerf Minmatar, then you basically make Amarr THE race to fly, with few exceptions, in almost every ship category in the game.

this is why I was saying you should let the winter patch come and then determine if the other races need work.

DPS is only half the equation.

Oh for gods sake.

A long time ago, Minmatar were a bloody shocking race to fly. The issue was, their weapon system was totally and utterly crap.

During this period of EVE's history it was Gallente that was top dog.

Amarr, somewhat unjustifiably was also thought of as a poor race to fly.

Caldari, with their crappy missile systems, were also a joke.

Over time Amarr ships and lasers were improved - the laser now being the best weapon system in the game as it stands, mounted on often perfect platforms - yes it is even better than projectiles.

Caldari had a missile balancing patch, which brought almost every weapon system into line bar Rockets and Cruise Missiles. Rockets have since been fixed, cruise missiles still have some issues.

Minmatar too, have benefited from a buff to their weapon system. This buff, has IMO, balanced them against lasers and results basically in a mostly equal weapon system. Both lasers and projectiles share similar engagement range - but one favours higher dps, quality of hit and instant ammo switching. The other favours less dps due to falloff...but same range overall, switch-able damage types and immunity to neuts. They are the two sides of the same coin in terms of balance to each other.

Hybrids and Gallente ships in general got shafted and are unbalanced because drones are crap, blasters are crap, rails are crap and active tanking is crap.

I don't really understand all this call for projectile nerf, since they are totally balanced with lasers.

My post doesn't go into my detail about exactly the changes and problems but that is kinda it in a nutshell... and IMO all this shouting about nerfing Minmatar isn't really justified. And before you ask whilst I fly all races, equally the only issues really atm with this game for PVP and indeed PVE are Gallente(and Caldari hybrid platforms). They are downright bullshit compared to the other races, with any luck this upcoming patch will boost them. Amarr, with their laser boats are still just as if not more competitive than their Minmatar counterparts.

If you nerf Minmatar, then you basically make Amarr THE race to fly, with few exceptions, in almost every ship category in the game.

Amarr is not that good. Scorch is good. They make Pulse Lasers the long range weapon. Make Beams the Long Range Weapons again and Pulses Short Range and that will bring backLR Weapon Balance.

Put Artillery in line with Rails and Beams and you will have balance w/o any race being OP.

In terms of Close range weapons:-

Scorch = Barrage - Same range, different flavour. Balanced.
MF = Fusion/EMP etc - same range, different flavour. Balanced.

In terms of long range weapons:-

I would agree that Minmatar has a trick with it's high alpha. For me this gives it flavour.
Rails and also lasers could probably do with a buff in this regard and I will agree it is out of balance. This does not mean Minmatar should be nerfed, it means the others should be improved. But remember lasers still have instant ammo switch (which is a HUGE plus) and also quicker ROF.

As someone above me has said, wait until hybrids are buffed, see how they do. Then consider nerfing/buffer certain aspects of various weapons and ships. Asking for a nerf to an only recently buffed weapon system, after YEARS of it being underpowered is a stupid stupid thing to be asking for.

I could argue the same problem about the drake's tank.

You can solo a c3 and possibly a c4
a hurricane cannot

If you think a minny ship is better - skill it up
just as if i think a drake is good for some things - ill skill that up.

Nothing is stopping you.

yeah, about that 2 years.... its somewhat longer you n00b

*that's 2 years older than you*

Yes, and the drake needs a nerf too.

The key word is ******* BALANCE! If one ship or races is used disproportionally often, then guess what, something is WRONG, and needs ADJUSTMENT

Bolded is where you stopped making sense.

The Range of Scorch invalidated long range weapons as it is right where fleet range is supposed to be.

These forums are starting to resemble the WoW forums with cry threads about nerfing things. Wow, just wow.

Barrage and Scorch both share a very very similar range improvement.

An Maelstrom with 800's gets 6+36 with Barrage.
An Abaddon with Mega Pulse gets 45+10 with Scorch.

No they are not the same exact ranges - but very similar to each other overall. As opposed to a Rokh or Hype loading Null. So basically you are talking out of your arse.

You see a similar theme with say, an AC Vaga and a Pulse Zealot. If pulse lasers invalidate long range weapons, then AC's also do a similar thing. And then you get to the ups and downs of both weapon systems which becomes situational in how they balance each other out.

minmatar tend to be a bit more skill intensive than the other races or am i wrong .?

and don't anyone dare to touch my scorch

You seem to beleive I was talking about something besides Scorch invalidating non Arty long range Weapons. You should stop thinking that.

The fact that any short range weapons system can get a 45km Optimal is a mistake. Barrage looses to much in falloff to be an effective fleet tool..


Autocannons do not invalidate long range weapons because they deal way less DPS at range. They do however when combined with a good medium range and high speed screw over short range ships.

Where Minmatar shine (and are used most it seems) is in solo-PvP. It's rare in my experiences to see non-claoky solo-PvP'er roaming in anything other than either Hurricaine or Vagabond.

You just have to visit the hybrid thread for the devblog to see how happy the Gallente are with their proposed "buff". I do fly Minmatar. And I say nerf it. Get us back to Eve on hard mode.

When I look at Long range weapons I look at 100km + for mediums and 150+ for large weapons. You seem to think that anything above point range it long range.

Basically you are asking for a Scorch nerf, when it shares such similar properties to Barrage. I will agree Beams need something to balance themselves against Arties, but if you nerf Scorch well we should also nerf Barrage. If we make everything nice and close range that's fine, and blasters will just then **** all over both weapon systems again.

I fly gallente and matar.

Matar is way easier, you can disengage and all sorts of cool stuff.

You will find similar pleasure flying Amarr then. Not to the same extent, but the flexibility is also there.

35-60 is where most fights get maneuvered to. Warp to/Probe Mechanics make it to hard to keep a fight out at those ranges and the enemy from escaping.


Never said nerf Barrage directly. I would however say Nerf Large Barrage and Large Scorch and keep medium Scorch and Barrage the way they are.

That along with buffing Medium LR Weapons would great in my books.

I have an idea! Lets balance all races and weapons at the same time!

Everyone gets pillows to hit each other with (Amarr get yellow ones, Minmatar get red ones, etc.).
Everyone also gets a couch cushion fort to hide within.

This solution would be on the same level as most of the debate regarding weapon systems balance, and may also be slightly complex for some people's comprehension.

I'm sure CCP can give some tender and loving nerfbat action to the Amarr too, if you really want it so badly.

A game this size should have rebalancing with almost every single patch. There's absolutely no reason that in a few weeks or months after the projectile nerf for CCP not to notice that it was too much. How many clues can you get? Fleets of shield canes tend to give it away.... The fact that people are entrenched now and have poured time and effort getting into ships that are "Winmatar" is just as bad as the situation itself. CCP should tweak, step back, tweak again, etc. Eve-O has never gotten that attention.

From all I've seen, Minmatar ships are just as common as Caldari & Amarr ones, and slightly more common than Gallente.

Seriously, any semblance of tactics or use of intelligence can defeat a "Winmatar" just as easily as any Caldari or Amarr ship.

I would suggest looking at PvP ships used the most.

Hurricane, Drake, Myrmidon, Megathron, Dominix, Rifter, Harbinger, Taranis..........

wut

Minmatar rely on speed & versatility, but against any decent foe of equal ability in their optimal range, they get slaughtered

Hurricane, Drake, Myrmidon, Megathron, Dominix, Rifter, Harbinger, Taranis..........

wut

Minmatar rely on speed & versatility, but against any decent foe of equal ability in their optimal range, they get slaughtered

[quote=Paragon Renegade]

Hurricane, Drake, Myrmidon, Megathron, Dominix, Rifter, Harbinger, Taranis..........
These ships are the most prominent on the top ten. The ones you listed are ok but not all that great.

RankShipsKills
1Drake933
2Hurricane878
3Dramiel378
4Cynabal287
5Harbinger268
6Sabre248
7Tengu246
8Manticore233
9Vagabond224
10Loki188
11Rapier177
12Machariel173
13Capsule156
14Hound155
15Rifter127
16Tempest110
17Zealot110
18Falcon105
19Armageddon101
20Abaddon95

....and methinks you have a different idea of optimal, AC's have shorter optimals than blasters....by half. Matar have falloff for days though.

Nerf the Capsule its being used too much. Really ...

All those statistic you can scrap prove nothing at all. If we talking about PvP, it depends on fleet composition and purpose of such fleet than you chose ships for it.

Dominixes are not that bad last time i checked, however you will hardly use them in massive fleet engagements.

But I just listed the ones I've seen the most, to illustrate the point that the preponderance of Minmatar is not nearly as large as one thinks. Minmatar ships are easy to use well, but really difficult to use exceptionally well. Don't confuse being versatile with being above & beyond.

I dunno, in my neck of low-sec its almost exactly what eve-kills says.

Drakes, Canes, Rifters, Cyna's Vaga, snipe macks nano-pests and the occasional PL bait maller...that we align blow to hell, and dodge the incoming super blob.

[quote=Paragon Renegade]
Point out the Ship that uses Hybrids or the Amarr Ship that does not need Scorch to be on that list.

Bombs
Autocannons
Scorch(Not Lasers, Scorch)
Heavy Missiles
Artillery

= Balance

I don't recall saying the other races didn't need to be looked at.

Start with 1400mm Artillery and L Scorch.

Is there a disagreemnet here? I sure as hell don't see one.

You would only ask if you are looking for one.

Page Snipe.

Enough is enough, nerf Zarnak Wulf.

A game this size should have rebalancing with almost every single patch. There's absolutely no reason that in a few weeks or months after the projectile nerf for CCP not to notice that it was too much. How many clues can you get? Fleets of shield canes tend to give it away.... The fact that people are entrenched now and have poured time and effort getting into ships that are "Winmatar" is just as bad as the situation itself. CCP should tweak, step back, tweak again, etc. Eve-O has never gotten that attention.

Is that the new 5th race rookie ship?

it is not the gun type that is wrong its the ship layout. Actuve tank and passive armour tank recuire more power grip witch those both fail to have (see gallente). Take a look at the 2 best roaming ships for 0.0. The hurricane and the vaga. Its the slot leyout that is the problem, the dual neut cane is over powerd but only because of the 2 neuts and the falloff from those 2 or 3 tracking enhancers.

The shield extenders make it possibel to fit 2 gyro and tracking and 2 neuts,

its the slot layout that makes it overpowerd not the weapon system

Now, just to clarify a point; I'd like if the other factions were beefed-up a bit, which they're doing in the winter anyway. My stance is that nerfing the minmatar ships so close to the update would be a short-sighted decision & a bad move.

:3

Also, PLEASE try doing damage out to 30km with a mid sized AC, even with barrage fitted, other than on the few falloff boosted ships with TC/TE in quite a few slots, you are down to below 50% dps. Can we hit? Yes, for under half the damage lasers are doing at that range and decreasing massively from that point.

There is simple NO excuse for thinking projectiles need nerfing except a sheer lack of skill, like the other weapon systems they have their weaknesses which includes the shortest optimal of all 3 guns only slightly compensated for by the long fall-off.
In general you'll find the dps of projectiles is almost always lower than that of Lasers unless you are sitting on the target at zero.

But hey, lets not let minor things like facts get in the way of a good nerf call right?

And what is it I'm asking for really? A rollback of short range ammo to it's old damage? That 'nerf' if you want to call it that is undercut by the new Hail buff. At least you'll have to stick to explosive damage if you want the superior DPS. Or matching the falloff bonus to the optimal bonus on tracking enhancers? Pulling back from 41km+ falloff on the fastest cruisers of the game surely would put them out of business.

We still get the alpha on artillery. We still get the damage selection type. We still get the falloff tiers from the projectile buff as well as the tracking increase. We're just going to pull our range - on the fastest ships in the game - back a bit as well as get our DPS potential back in line with the other races.

Look at the total package:
Minmatar have the smallest, fastest, most agile ships for damage mitigation. They have fitting requirements that can only be described as luxurious. Their drone bays are the second largest in the game. They have damage selection and their weapon systems are cap free. Minmatar ships have the fastest locking times in the game.

This argument is alot more then weapon system vs. weapon system. With all the other advantages that Minmatar get they should have a weaker weapon system. My suggestions are not crazy or way out of line. And noone should think that Minmatar should have all the advantages that they currently get as well as 90% of what the other races have.

Again, lrn2 falloff. Show me a Vaga which can do more than ~150 turret DPS at 40km? Show me a Vaga which does this while having a tank on par with your typical armor Zealot? I'm very curious as to what sort of modules you're fitting to get those stats.

There is no need to further reduce their range or DPS. The only ships on which this is justifiable, imo, are Angel ships, due to obsoleting the respective Minmatar ships in every possible way. (See: Cynabals compared to Vagas, Machariels compared to fleet Tempests) - this problem is not present with other pirate factions, as there is still plenty of reason to use Zealots over Phantasms, Ishtars over Vigilants, etc.

I'd also like to point out Minmatar's tremendously low sensor strength, which is a major crutch when it comes to the state of today's ECM/ecm drones. Oh, and another thing you're wrong about is dronebays: Minmatar actually have the third largest, after Gallente and Amarr.

So no, I don't think most Minmatar ships are in need of nerfing.

Look at the total package:
Minmatar have the smallest, fastest, most agile ships for damage mitigation. They have fitting requirements that can only be described as luxurious. Their drone bays are the second largest in the game. They have damage selection and their weapon systems are cap free. Minmatar ships have the fastest locking times in the game.

This argument is alot more then weapon system vs. weapon system. With all the other advantages that Minmatar get they should have a weaker weapon system. My suggestions are not crazy or way out of line. And noone should think that Minmatar should have all the advantages that they currently get as well as 90% of what the other races have.

Its when you can stack three gyros and two TE's on a double bonused hull that happens to be fastest in class that the balance tips.

problem is people don't know how to counter the cane.

people need to not go OMGWTFBBQ! when one gets up in your grill and actually do something that exploits its weakness

neut it

shoot it, outrun it.

dump drones on him, web, jam....

So basically jam him and hope to gtfo, nice. Ever wonder why literally everyone has a falcon alt?

Amarr is not that good. Scorch is good. They make Pulse Lasers the long range weapon. Make Beams the Long Range Weapons again and Pulses Short Range and that will bring backLR Weapon Balance.

Put Artillery in line with Rails and Beams and you will have balance w/o any race being OP.

It's more like scorch vs. AC. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

When and if they roll out a new intel system I hope Minmatar gets the short end of the stick there. Big barbarians and strong fighters - light on organization and team. It would put things in perspective at least.

Two thoughts:

• Lose the ~9% DPS increase that short range ammo got with the projectile buff. The purification of damage type was more then enough.

• Reduce the tracking enhancer falloff bonus from 30% to 15%.

Discuss.

Minmatar ships have quite a few weaknesses to balance their many guns already as we speak! Be creative and you will counter them

I'm sure CCP can give some tender and loving nerfbat action to the Amarr too, if you really want it so badly.

....

Most agile, highest speed while tackled. Disengage at will. Anything that can't out-run it, won't get the chance to shoot it in the first place. And most ships that can out-run it, will be needing to gtfo at this point.

.....

It's more like scorch vs. AC. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

When and if they roll out a new intel system I hope Minmatar gets the short end of the stick there. Big barbarians and strong fighters - light on organization and team. It would put things in perspective at least.

Minmatar excel in the extremely niche role of PVP, so why nerf them?

Nerf ac's? i say ney they need a buff! and CCP thinks so too.
With the new Hail buff doubling the range of their highest DPS ammo they will be right where they are ment to be as FoTM. Reigning champion for the last few years with no contenders in sight for years to come.

screw dat

and what ammo? the standard ammo? the faction ammo? the T2 ammo?

why don't you try flying minmatar before calling for nerfs

Hail is arty ammo, and NO ONE uses it currently because it puts a rate or fire penalty on a weapon system that fires every 12 seconds with prefect skills and a three gyro's to speed it up in addition to a 50% range penalty. On 1400s there is no reason to use it ever, you get to fire more than 4 times a minute when you use faction ammo, and for sniping you use Tremor anyway because you need the range bonus.

I hardly think that that the change to Hailis groundbreaking. People aren't going to change the employment of 1400mm arties (Arty Baddon anyone) its just an option over using RF short range ammo types all of the time.

People should really welcome it, at least matar using T2 ammo is sticking to one damage type most likely, otherwise you are choosing by engagement.

Hail is autocannon ammo.

not sure if i understand, but, you absically want every gun to have the same stats, beams = amrrian arty's kinda thing, absically you can fly whatever whenever and always have a chance to win?

cause as i see it now, ive seen players in blaster-boats and hybrid-platforms do serious damage against minnies who got cocky, and amarrians who egt neuuted.

honestly, every race ahs a specific battlefield role they fill, and then their ship classes fill sub-roles within that combat profile.

im not sure if im understanding your post here, but it sounds like your proposing what alot of ill-informed people sugest and thats making ever race equivalent, beams being basically the same as arty's except shooting flashlights.

BTW, seriosuly, you don't nerf something for being OP rigth ebfore you buff something else, it guarantees the Buffee is top-dog/FOTM until either they fidn a way to buff everything else again, or nerf it back to how i t originally was.

[quote=Onictus]...people need to not go OMGWTFBBQ! when one gets up in your grill and actually do something that exploits its weakness, neut it, shoot it, outrun it. dump drones on him, web, jam....

Let's look at FOTM ships in the last few years: Dramiel, Machariel, Cynabal, Vaggabond, Ishtar, Drake, Hurricane, Abaddon, Maelstrom. Notice a pattern here?

Let's look at FOTM ships in the last few years: Dramiel, Machariel, Cynabal, Vaggabond, Ishtar, Drake, Hurricane, Abaddon, Maelstrom. Notice a pattern here?

To be fair Ishtar can't fit a 1600mm plate, a MWD and 3 medium turrets, no matter the flavor.

Didn't read past the first three pages, but here's what I think:

- Atrilleries are more or less fine, tought maybe have too much alpha. It's supposedly countered by lower dps, but depending of the time frame you're taking as a sample, the total can actually be higher than other weapon systems. Maybe a 20% lower alpha is in order, along with a rof increase to keep the same dps.

- Autocanons are out of whack. The things you can do with them are ludicrous. The Tornado, unless changed, will have 89km falloff with barrage and a pair of tracking enhancer (which it can fit without needing to sacrifice anything important). 89km falloff! Didn't some of the fineprint somewhere mention autocanons being a short range weapon?
The second problem with them is that they're dirt-cheap to fit. Which mean you can have a pretty oversized tank on a cruiser/BC-sized powergrid, and don't need to do any compromise to take the biggest AC tier. An armageddon can't use 7 mega pulse lasers + plates + MWD. A Dominix can't fit 6 neutrons + plates + MWD. Yet which minmatar BS has to use 650mm AC because 800mm wouldn't fit? There is none.
Let's look at FOTM ships in the last few years: Dramiel, Machariel, Cynabal, Vaggabond, Ishtar, Drake, Hurricane, Abaddon, Maelstrom. Notice a pattern here?

Yes, two are Minmatar, three are angels (which require Minmatar and Gallente skills), one is Gallente, one is Amarr and one is Caldari. Also, you forgot the Zealot, and the Cane, which would bring that to three Minmatar, two Amarr, one Gallente and Caldari.

Only recently i've started to fly minmatar ships but i instanly noticed incredible versatility of autocannons. Superior tracking, falloff, rate of fire makes them definitely most universal. Fact that in mach i can shoot from melee range up to 65km with HAIL is actualy kinda OP and makes autocannons weapon of choice for most PVPiers.
CCP should rly do some small changes to it. (Mby take a bit from projectile weapons and give it to hybrids)

Most likely OP is a bad pilot.

Minmatar ships have the lowest tank and are the hardest to fly, they ONLY work if you calculate the correct range for this particular enemy and HOLD that range while you kill the enemy.

OP most likely has no idea how to fly minmatar himself, can't do it so now he wants to nerf it because much better pilots can defeat him using it.

Deal with it, a better pilot will defeat you no matter what he is flying really, work out how to defeat minmatar and play to that advantage.

HINT: A minmatar ship that can't manuver easily (web, scram) is a dead minmatar ship against any equal foe. Its only their greater agility that allow them to stand a chance.

If projectiles were as perfectly balanced with lasers, then why/how can an AC Harbinger compete with a Pulse Harbinger?

Or how about projectile Abbaddon's being equal to or better than laser ditto?

That is mostly ship bonuses.

...its an insanely good hull, but not indicative of the Matari BS line.

if you're losing to an autocannon harb in a pulse harb, you should probably get your F1 button checked out. same for if your hellcat fleet is losing to arty-abaddons.

If projectiles were as perfectly balanced with lasers, then why/how can an AC Harbinger compete with a Pulse Harbinger?

You mean "call in the blob" is your recommended counter?
When you get a day off from your busy schedule in your high-sec icebelt then I'd like you to go out and neut a Cane (doesn't use cap, doh!), try to outrun it (faster than Minnie?), use drones against it (anything but ECM is killed in a heartbeat), web it and survive long enough in his optimal for it to matter .. jamming him is probably your best bet but that means you are in an ECM bird, guess they do have a counter afterall (ignoring the fact that the broken-ass ECM counters EVERYTHING!

I and others warned CCP that they were over-buffing during SiSi testing of improved projectiles, but we were drowned out by screaming children that wanted even MORE (yeah, go figure) and CCP opted for OP rather than OMGBROKEN! .. now I almost wish they had listened to the whiners back then as they would never have been able to ignore a severely broken system for two plus years ..

Then again they managed to ignore the broken SCs and Sovereignty system for that long .... hahahahahahaha

REMOVE THE "OVER" IN THE PROJECTILE OVER-BUFF!

That combination was only an example. Same thing goes for vargur, cane, sleipnir, vagabond, cynabal....

However mach + "advanced" autocannons are way to strong.

My bad, I didn't know angel ships weren't using autocanons.

Imba matar is imba.

So to you, an imbalance should only be considered such if it exists on fleet level?

"Hellcats" only work with a minimum number, same as the AHAC Swarm, same as Arty Swarms (although significantly lower number) .. but what of the majority of fights that are conducted at numbers below fleet level. That is where projectiles break the game completely thanks to allowing full gank + tank + damage selection + cap independence.

Metrics never lie (only the interpretation thereof) and projectile platforms have ruled the killboards (as in making up 75+% of all ships/weapons used) ever since the buff .. there is no way to spin that into "projectiles are fine" .. but you are of course welcome to try.

PS: All laser boats are defeated with one hand tied behind ones back with just two modules, EM Hardener and Neutralizer. So if you lose to a pulse anything flying anything other than frigs (Slicers > All) you need to go back and revisit the basics.

-shield Cane does 405 DPS at 20km.
-plated Harb still does 555 at 20km.

really im still stuck on how exactly the **** you lose to an autocannon harb in a pulse harb. harb gets an actual dmg bonus, how can you possibly welp to someone with the equivalent of BC 0? i mean, i was already 95% sure you were blithering idiot, but thanks for confirming you're bad at spaceships as well.

Unless the Harb is ******** and lets the Cane sit way out (beyond Scorch optimal, i.e. point range) and eat away it's buffer without trying to warp, it should be able to win or force the Cane to warp off.

Yeah I was busy fixing that post.

Point stands though, I've never seen hail used anywhere except battle clinic to bump up numbers.

These forums are starting to resemble the WoW forums with cry threads about nerfing things. Wow, just wow.

Mfume Apocal - 1) you are a 2010 character (or post with your main), 2) you spend too much time in EFT and don't give enough thought to larger strategic concerns. On paper it may seem balanced (its not) but reality and what you see out there speak volumes. Nice try though.

Minmatar are not the hard-mode race, they are the I-win race.

Then you run off to things about fleets and how KBs are not an indicatior of anything and so on. . .

IDGI. The standard response's are:

1. Minmatar is fine, look at the drake. Actually, look at heavy missiles in general, but this is beside the point. Let me know when small, medium, and large missiles are all as great as their projectile counterparts.

2. Minmatar is fine, scorch pwns us! As it should, but the problem is you can engage or be engaged by any amarrian ship and have more than enough speed and agility to get out if you're loosing.

Projectiles are clearly out of line given the mobility of minmatar ships. Their only true weakness is sensor strength and I think most of us realize that is a problem.

Look at the total package:
Minmatar have the smallest, fastest, most agile ships for damage mitigation.
Actually, that would be the Angels.

Their drone bays are the second largest in the game.
I think you are confusing them with AmarrGǪ
Amarr frigs with dronesGǪ (Off the top of my head) T2. Sentinel
I canGÇÖt think of any Minmatar ones.
Amarr Cruisers Drone boats... Pilgrim, Curse, and their T1 counterpart can all field flights of mediums with room to spare.
MinmatarGǪ. Can only field one flight of mediums and maybe a light if they are lucky.
BS, all the races have at least 1 BS that can field a full flight of heavies. Typhoon and Armageddon being similar in this respect but the Typhoon suffers from a split weapon system + being an armor tanker so itGÇÖs either decent damage or decent tank.

They have damage selection and their weapon systems are cap free.
They also have terrible optimal. So while their range may equal that of AmarrGÇÖs, their damage is at about 30% while Amarr is still hitting at 100%. Learn the game mechanics.

And no one should think that Minmatar should have all the advantages that they currently get as well as 90% of what the other races have.
Minmatar doesnGÇÖt. If you learn ANY of the races weaknesses, you can defeat them with any other race. However, for some people itGÇÖs easier to cry GÇ£nerfGÇ¥ than to learn how to adapt and overcome situations.

Strange, 'cane fleets are RARE, drake fleets are more common.
Clearly missiles must need nerfing by your reasoning, they are far more numerous than 'cane fleets.

Also, PLEASE try doing damage out to 30km with a mid sized AC, even with barrage fitted, other than on the few falloff boosted ships with TC/TE in quite a few slots, you are down to below 50% dps. Can we hit? Yes, for under half the damage lasers are doing at that range and decreasing massively from that point.

There is simple NO excuse for thinking projectiles need nerfing except a sheer lack of skill, like the other weapon systems they have their weaknesses which includes the shortest optimal of all 3 guns only slightly compensated for by the long fall-off.
In general you'll find the dps of projectiles is almost always lower than that of Lasers unless you are sitting on the target at zero.

But hey, lets not let minor things like facts get in the way of a good nerf call right?

If projectiles were as perfectly balanced with lasers, then why/how can an AC Harbinger compete with a Pulse Harbinger?

Bitterness

I'm going to consider the view of someone who experienced AC before the buff alot more then the view of someone who had not. The older pilot would have followed the buff threads and seen how CCP had caved on every issue. From falloff tiers to tracking to tracking enhancers to even throwing in a 9% DPS buff on short range ammo that hadn't even been asked for. Many don't even remember what the original issues were.

It's on page 2 of ships and modules. I'm on my cell phone at work and can't link :). Good to see you again. I did a double take.

You are hardcore addicted to FOTM. And your tears are delicious.

Go lose another Dramiel. You are hardcore addicted to FOTM. And your tears are delicious.

I remember what the original issues were, and I remember giving up on the thread where it was being discussed because it was just too noisy for reasonable conversation. I also remember that my preferred solution was a mild nerf to lasers instead of a boost to projectiles. At any rate, they attempted to boost projectiles (As a weapon platform) to be equal to lasers (as a weapon platform). IMO, they succeeded - but what is most of the time overlooked is that Pulse ships (as a whole) are mildly inferior to AC ships.

I think when you take everything into account, they probably should have simultaneously purified damage types as well as added falloff by tier. The Hybrid changes look unexciting, but I'd hesitate to go nerfing the crap out of Projectiles until the changes from that are pretty well panned out.

-Liang

PS: Anyone got a link to the new EFT thread? I have been out of game for a while now.... :)

I remember what the original issues were, and I remember giving up on the thread where it was being discussed because it was just too noisy for reasonable conversation. I also remember that my preferred solution was a mild nerf to lasers instead of a boost to projectiles. At any rate, they attempted to boost projectiles (As a weapon platform) to be equal to lasers (as a weapon platform). IMO, they succeeded - but what is most of the time overlooked is that Pulse ships (as a whole) are mildly inferior to AC ships.

I think when you take everything into account, they probably should have simultaneously purified damage types as well as added falloff by tier. The Hybrid changes look unexciting, but I'd hesitate to go nerfing the crap out of Projectiles until the changes from that are pretty well panned out.

-Liang

PS: Anyone got a link to the new EFT thread? I have been out of game for a while now.... :)

I'm going to consider the view of someone who experienced AC before the buff alot more then the view of someone who had not. The older pilot would have followed the buff threads and seen how CCP had caved on every issue. From falloff tiers to tracking to tracking enhancers to even throwing in a 9% DPS buff on short range ammo that hadn't even been asked for. Many don't even remember what the original issues were.

-Liang

PS: Anyone got a link to the new EFT thread? I have been out of game for a while now.... :)

HOLY **** LIANG IS BACK!

I have an idea! Lets balance all races and weapons at the same time!

Everyone gets pillows to hit each other with (Amarr get yellow ones, Minmatar get red ones, etc.).
Everyone also gets a couch cushion fort to hide within.

This solution would be on the same level as most of the debate regarding weapon systems balance, and may also be slightly complex for some people's comprehension.

Matar are OP? Maybe. Just maybe. Consider. The intent was for them to be the most skill-intensive and rewarding ships available. This I think is the one thing CCP got right. 95% perfect skill to fly alll but 1 Matar Bs still means you are about a year from building a great Phoon. Will a minnie, pound for pound and ounce for ounce out perform every other ship in it's class? Most of the time. It will take more training to get that result? Yes. This, in game theory, is what you would call balance....

I remember what the original issues were, and I remember giving up on the thread where it was being discussed because it was just too noisy for reasonable conversation. I also remember that my preferred solution was a mild nerf to lasers instead of a boost to projectiles. At any rate, they attempted to boost projectiles (As a weapon platform) to be equal to lasers (as a weapon platform). IMO, they succeeded - but what is most of the time overlooked is that Pulse ships (as a whole) are mildly inferior to AC ships.

I think when you take everything into account, they probably should have simultaneously purified damage types as well as added falloff by tier. The Hybrid changes look unexciting, but I'd hesitate to go nerfing the crap out of Projectiles until the changes from that are pretty well panned out.

-Liang

PS: Anyone got a link to the new EFT thread? I have been out of game for a while now.... :)

Minmatar have massive problems as soon as you remove their ability to move quickly, look at the Vaga's stats for example, its got 40k EHP with maxed skills and a good fit and only putting out a MAXIMUM of 500dps at point blank range, thats when it HASN'T been fitted out for max speed. The faster Vagas you see are often fit down to 25k EHP tank, less than some T1 cruisers. They maybe be harder to catch but it takes much less to drive them off, a single drake is a match for a vaga that tries it's luck, a zealot would however do nasty things to the same drake, particually if its AB fit.

If we follow through with your suggestions then you have to nerf Minmatar for smaller gangs and buff them in bigger gangs, so basically make all the races an exact copy of the Amarr....... would that make you happy? Because thats the only way to make all the races balanced equally in all areas.

OH NO vaga cant solo a drake := lets boost matar !!!

1400mm Maelstrom
1400mm Tempest
Nano Tempest
720mm Nano Hurricane
Arty Muninn
Scimitar
Rapier
Huginn
Hound
Sabre
Broadsword

Vs

Caldari

HAM Drake
HML Drake
Nano Drake
HAM Tengu
100MN AB Tengu
Falcon
Rook
Basilisk
Cerberus
Manticore
Scorpion

Fixed.

Fixed.

Too bad. I prefer fun and balanced to the "I win" button.

[quote=Liang Nuren]
Then you will remember that the reason for the TE buff was not because ACs lacked tracking or needed more falloff, but because TDs got falloff added to the optimal range script. The argument was that there was no hard counter to TDs and because TDs were so good now - everyone would use them in their spare mids like ECM used to be. An awful argument at best. By the same logic, there should be a low slot mod that increases optimal. . .and that would buff pulse even more.

And yes - you see the problem when ACs are married to the ships. As I see it, the problem is that when taken as a whole, ACs are simply too good right now. They were ******, that is why they had all those advantages.

And yes - I don't want to see projectiles nurfed to oblivion. Just take the edge off. Mainly 1) revert to the old ammo model - or at least tweak it so that they can't focus damage types. And give that ammo change to hybrid ammo. Reduce the flat dps increase from the previous 9% to something more reasonable, and remove the TE falloff bonus entirely.

and welcome back. while I don't agree with everything you say, its nice to have some reason back.

Fun Fact. 5 Vagabonds can solo a Drake while 5 Drakes can watch a Vagabond escape.

Everyone forgets that in balance discussions.

It has proved to be important.

HAM Tengu, 2x Nano Drake and HAM Drake are small gang ships not blob boats. The Basilisk is a lesser Scimitar for when you don't have a Scimitar. The Falcon/Rook are not often big fleet assets. Not enough to be worth mentioning. The 1600mm Plate Scorp is one I forgot about.

Also you forgot the Vulture which means I did.

Wat.

-Liang

The Person said take away Minmatars speed and there not that good as to show projectiles are not OP. But speed is important because while a Vagabond can not solo a Drake a group can catch one easy enough. A group of Drakes on the other hand get nothing more then to watch a Vagabond leave.

The difference is pretty big. Yet people tend look at the issue as if they are talking only about 1v1's when it comes to balancing.

I'll have to remember that I got solo killed next time I die to five Vagabonds.

-Liang

What are you talking about?

I even underlined it in your post before responding. "5 Vagabonds can solo a Drake". That's not soloing a Drake.

-Liang

Stop getting caught up over typo's.

Lighten up. It wasn't meant to be a big deal, but you're making it one.

-Liang

****** liang is back defending the imba op matars again...

Someone on page 3 or 4 seriously argued that Barrage and Scorch have the same ranges. Since it, perhaps, didn't get the point across the first time:

WTB 500 DPS at 24km Cane.
WTB 700 DPS at 60km Tempest.

I don't know how you guys could use an autocannon ship at any sort of range and say with a straight face, "Barrage is about as good as Scorch."

WTB 500 DPS at 24km Cane.
WTB 700 DPS at 60km Tempest.