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Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
6
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Posted - 2011.11.01 23:25:00 -
[91] - Quote
Paragon Renegade wrote:Onictus wrote: I dunno, in my neck of low-sec its almost exactly what eve-kills says.
Drakes, Canes, Rifters, Cyna's Vaga, snipe macks nano-pests and the occasional PL bait maller...that we align blow to hell, and dodge the incoming super blob.
Now, just to clarify a point; I'd like if the other factions were beefed-up a bit, which they're doing in the winter anyway. My stance is that nerfing the minmatar ships so close to the update would be a short-sighted decision & a bad move. :3
I never said to nerf anything.
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Kalot Sakaar
CragCO
8
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Posted - 2011.11.01 23:29:00 -
[92] - Quote
+1 to nerfing Minmatar. Love it if only for the tears. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
34
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Posted - 2011.11.01 23:31:00 -
[93] - Quote
Rhinanna wrote:Also, PLEASE try doing damage out to 30km with a mid sized AC, even with barrage fitted, other than on the few falloff boosted ships with TC/TE in quite a few slots, you are down to below 50% dps. Can we hit? Yes, for under half the damage lasers are doing at that range and decreasing massively from that point.
There is simple NO excuse for thinking projectiles need nerfing except a sheer lack of skill, like the other weapon systems they have their weaknesses which includes the shortest optimal of all 3 guns only slightly compensated for by the long fall-off. In general you'll find the dps of projectiles is almost always lower than that of Lasers unless you are sitting on the target at zero.
But hey, lets not let minor things like facts get in the way of a good nerf call right?
And what is it I'm asking for really? A rollback of short range ammo to it's old damage? That 'nerf' if you want to call it that is undercut by the new Hail buff. At least you'll have to stick to explosive damage if you want the superior DPS. Or matching the falloff bonus to the optimal bonus on tracking enhancers? Pulling back from 41km+ falloff on the fastest cruisers of the game surely would put them out of business.
We still get the alpha on artillery. We still get the damage selection type. We still get the falloff tiers from the projectile buff as well as the tracking increase. We're just going to pull our range - on the fastest ships in the game - back a bit as well as get our DPS potential back in line with the other races.
Look at the total package: Minmatar have the smallest, fastest, most agile ships for damage mitigation. They have fitting requirements that can only be described as luxurious. Their drone bays are the second largest in the game. They have damage selection and their weapon systems are cap free. Minmatar ships have the fastest locking times in the game.
This argument is alot more then weapon system vs. weapon system. With all the other advantages that Minmatar get they should have a weaker weapon system. My suggestions are not crazy or way out of line. And noone should think that Minmatar should have all the advantages that they currently get as well as 90% of what the other races have. |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2011.11.02 00:23:00 -
[94] - Quote
TE's certainly need nerfing down to 15/15.
The 15-30 split heavily favours projectiles as they get the big boost on their biggest stat.
Just making that change will at least go towards balancing out the weapons a bit.
The proposed removal of their 9% DPS boost will be good, as it'll certainly help make blasters seem to have a bigger edge (like CCP says they do, but don't). |
Running Clam
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 00:25:00 -
[95] - Quote
Hmmm.. No |
Amro One
One.
17
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Posted - 2011.11.02 00:30:00 -
[96] - Quote
When can i buy Gold ammo? |
Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
123
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Posted - 2011.11.02 00:42:00 -
[97] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Rhinanna wrote:Also, PLEASE try doing damage out to 30km with a mid sized AC, even with barrage fitted, other than on the few falloff boosted ships with TC/TE in quite a few slots, you are down to below 50% dps. Can we hit? Yes, for under half the damage lasers are doing at that range and decreasing massively from that point.
There is simple NO excuse for thinking projectiles need nerfing except a sheer lack of skill, like the other weapon systems they have their weaknesses which includes the shortest optimal of all 3 guns only slightly compensated for by the long fall-off. In general you'll find the dps of projectiles is almost always lower than that of Lasers unless you are sitting on the target at zero.
But hey, lets not let minor things like facts get in the way of a good nerf call right? And what is it I'm asking for really? A rollback of short range ammo to it's old damage? That 'nerf' if you want to call it that is undercut by the new Hail buff. At least you'll have to stick to explosive damage if you want the superior DPS. Or matching the falloff bonus to the optimal bonus on tracking enhancers? Pulling back from 41km+ falloff on the fastest cruisers of the game surely would put them out of business. We still get the alpha on artillery. We still get the damage selection type. We still get the falloff tiers from the projectile buff as well as the tracking increase. We're just going to pull our range - on the fastest ships in the game - back a bit as well as get our DPS potential back in line with the other races. Look at the total package: Minmatar have the smallest, fastest, most agile ships for damage mitigation. They have fitting requirements that can only be described as luxurious. Their drone bays are the second largest in the game. They have damage selection and their weapon systems are cap free. Minmatar ships have the fastest locking times in the game. This argument is alot more then weapon system vs. weapon system. With all the other advantages that Minmatar get they should have a weaker weapon system. My suggestions are not crazy or way out of line. And noone should think that Minmatar should have all the advantages that they currently get as well as 90% of what the other races have.
Again, lrn2 falloff. Show me a Vaga which can do more than ~150 turret DPS at 40km? Show me a Vaga which does this while having a tank on par with your typical armor Zealot? I'm very curious as to what sort of modules you're fitting to get those stats.
There is no need to further reduce their range or DPS. The only ships on which this is justifiable, imo, are Angel ships, due to obsoleting the respective Minmatar ships in every possible way. (See: Cynabals compared to Vagas, Machariels compared to fleet Tempests) - this problem is not present with other pirate factions, as there is still plenty of reason to use Zealots over Phantasms, Ishtars over Vigilants, etc.
I'd also like to point out Minmatar's tremendously low sensor strength, which is a major crutch when it comes to the state of today's ECM/ecm drones. Oh, and another thing you're wrong about is dronebays: Minmatar actually have the third largest, after Gallente and Amarr.
So no, I don't think most Minmatar ships are in need of nerfing. |
Epiphaniess
Verboten Technologies
428
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 01:05:00 -
[98] - Quote
This whinny fix my stuff that I care about but break your stuff I don't care about is just silly.
If the only way people believe will buff their preferred races ships is to nerf another races ships. Then you certainly do not have any idea what you are doing.
Stop getting all teary eyed and whinny, just because hybrids are not getting your dream buff of wtfbqpawnness.
When CCP looks at things they do it by looking at the roles they play, and trying to make what is not working so well work with a bit more effectiveness. There not trying to over-buff or make another flavor of the month.
You are certainly not going to get your dream buff.
Projectiles did not when they got looked at and nether will you.
Crying to get another race nerfed because that is the only way you feel will fix your race, is just an absurd way to do things and I am glad CCP as enough since to ignore such stuff. |
Hannibal Ord
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
38
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 01:39:00 -
[99] - Quote
Roosterton wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Rhinanna wrote:Also, PLEASE try doing damage out to 30km with a mid sized AC, even with barrage fitted, other than on the few falloff boosted ships with TC/TE in quite a few slots, you are down to below 50% dps. Can we hit? Yes, for under half the damage lasers are doing at that range and decreasing massively from that point.
There is simple NO excuse for thinking projectiles need nerfing except a sheer lack of skill, like the other weapon systems they have their weaknesses which includes the shortest optimal of all 3 guns only slightly compensated for by the long fall-off. In general you'll find the dps of projectiles is almost always lower than that of Lasers unless you are sitting on the target at zero.
But hey, lets not let minor things like facts get in the way of a good nerf call right? And what is it I'm asking for really? A rollback of short range ammo to it's old damage? That 'nerf' if you want to call it that is undercut by the new Hail buff. At least you'll have to stick to explosive damage if you want the superior DPS. Or matching the falloff bonus to the optimal bonus on tracking enhancers? Pulling back from 41km+ falloff on the fastest cruisers of the game surely would put them out of business. We still get the alpha on artillery. We still get the damage selection type. We still get the falloff tiers from the projectile buff as well as the tracking increase. We're just going to pull our range - on the fastest ships in the game - back a bit as well as get our DPS potential back in line with the other races. Look at the total package: Minmatar have the smallest, fastest, most agile ships for damage mitigation. They have fitting requirements that can only be described as luxurious. Their drone bays are the second largest in the game. They have damage selection and their weapon systems are cap free. Minmatar ships have the fastest locking times in the game. This argument is alot more then weapon system vs. weapon system. With all the other advantages that Minmatar get they should have a weaker weapon system. My suggestions are not crazy or way out of line. And noone should think that Minmatar should have all the advantages that they currently get as well as 90% of what the other races have. Again, lrn2 falloff. Show me a Vaga which can do more than ~150 turret DPS at 40km? Show me a Vaga which does this while having a tank on par with your typical armor Zealot? I'm very curious as to what sort of modules you're fitting to get those stats. There is no need to further reduce their range or DPS. The only ships on which this is justifiable, imo, are Angel ships, due to obsoleting the respective Minmatar ships in every possible way. (See: Cynabals compared to Vagas, Machariels compared to fleet Tempests) - this problem is not present with other pirate factions, as there is still plenty of reason to use Zealots over Phantasms, Ishtars over Vigilants, etc. I'd also like to point out Minmatar's tremendously low sensor strength, which is a major crutch when it comes to the state of today's ECM/ecm drones. Oh, and another thing you're wrong about is dronebays: Minmatar actually have the third largest, after Gallente and Amarr. So no, I don't think most Minmatar ships are in need of nerfing.
And they don't lock fastest either. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 01:56:00 -
[100] - Quote
Fastest lock time. Lowest ECM strength. Falcons and Rooks are not as numerous as they used to be. I'm not including faction ships like the Dramiel in the lock time comparison. |
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Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 02:01:00 -
[101] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Look at the total package: Minmatar have the smallest, fastest, most agile ships for damage mitigation. They have fitting requirements that can only be described as luxurious. Their drone bays are the second largest in the game. They have damage selection and their weapon systems are cap free. Minmatar ships have the fastest locking times in the game.
This argument is alot more then weapon system vs. weapon system. With all the other advantages that Minmatar get they should have a weaker weapon system. My suggestions are not crazy or way out of line. And noone should think that Minmatar should have all the advantages that they currently get as well as 90% of what the other races have.
Pulse vs AC is actually a good match turret to turret, at range pulses + scortch are arguably a better system
Its when you can stack three gyros and two TE's on a double bonused hull that happens to be fastest in class that the balance tips.
...and seriously, a set of EC-300s or a TD completely shuts down a Hurricane, its not hard to counter the more common fits, plan accordingly.
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Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
37
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 02:10:00 -
[102] - Quote
It's more like scorch vs. AC. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
When and if they roll out a new intel system I hope Minmatar gets the short end of the stick there. Big barbarians and strong fighters - light on organization and team. It would put things in perspective at least. |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
234
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 02:11:00 -
[103] - Quote
Onictus wrote:
Its when you can stack three gyros and two TE's on a double bonused hull that happens to be fastest in class that the balance tips.
no no no, bad dog (hits with rolled up newspaper)
the balance in DPS tips in favor of the cane, but the loss in tank goes in the other guys favor.
problem is people don't know how to counter the cane. you get great DPS while in someones face, but that also happens to be the worst possible place you can be with a shield fit cane.
people need to not go OMGWTFBBQ! when one gets up in your grill and actually do something that exploits its weakness, neut it, shoot it, outrun it. dump drones on him, web, jam....
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Nimrod Nemesis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
32
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 02:41:00 -
[104] - Quote
Morganta wrote:problem is people don't know how to counter the cane.
Not really.
Morganta wrote: people need to not go OMGWTFBBQ! when one gets up in your grill and actually do something that exploits its weakness
This should be good...
Projectiles > Neuts and since any good cane will have neuts of it's own.. lol
Morganta wrote: shoot it, outrun it.
Most agile, highest speed while tackled. Disengage at will. Anything that can't out-run it, won't get the chance to shoot it in the first place. And most ships that can out-run it, will be needing to gtfo at this point.
Morganta wrote: dump drones on him, web, jam....
So basically jam him and hope to gtfo, nice. Ever wonder why literally everyone has a falcon alt? |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
234
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 02:46:00 -
[105] - Quote
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
So basically jam him and hope to gtfo, nice. Ever wonder why literally everyone has a falcon alt?
*facepalm*
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Nariya Kentaya
Celestial Ascension
56
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 03:09:00 -
[106] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Hannibal Ord wrote: If you nerf Minmatar, then you basically make Amarr THE race to fly, with few exceptions, in almost every ship category in the game.
Amarr is not that good. Scorch is good. They make Pulse Lasers the long range weapon. Make Beams the Long Range Weapons again and Pulses Short Range and that will bring backLR Weapon Balance. Put Artillery in line with Rails and Beams and you will have balance w/o any race being OP. not sure if i understand, but, you absically want every gun to have the same stats, beams = amrrian arty's kinda thing, absically you can fly whatever whenever and always have a chance to win?
cause as i see it now, ive seen players in blaster-boats and hybrid-platforms do serious damage against minnies who got cocky, and amarrians who egt neuuted.
honestly, every race ahs a specific battlefield role they fill, and then their ship classes fill sub-roles within that combat profile.
im not sure if im understanding your post here, but it sounds like your proposing what alot of ill-informed people sugest and thats making ever race equivalent, beams being basically the same as arty's except shooting flashlights.
BTW, seriosuly, you don't nerf something for being OP rigth ebfore you buff something else, it guarantees the Buffee is top-dog/FOTM until either they fidn a way to buff everything else again, or nerf it back to how it originally was. |
How2FoldSoup
Hull Tanking Elitists
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 03:11:00 -
[107] - Quote
At least we all saw the threads coming right? |
Nariya Kentaya
Celestial Ascension
56
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 03:16:00 -
[108] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:It's more like scorch vs. AC. We'll just have to agree to disagree. When and if they roll out a new intel system I hope Minmatar gets the short end of the stick there. Big barbarians and strong fighters - light on organization and team. It would put things in perspective at least. ummm, wtf? actually, it would make sense that someone like the Minmatar would ahve the most advanced network/communications for teamwork, since growing from a tribal community, cooperation and mutual support is the only way to survive. if anything the Amarrians would get the short end of the stick in communications, since historically, overly-religious groups have always had an aversion for exploring ways of ciommunication, and instead had tendencies to show the opposition their own inferioirity (shitloads of EWAR or overwhelming weapon systems lasers= judgement/flames of god, anyone?) the gallente being centered around individual freedom should have the ebst tank in the game, since with most freedom centric society's focused on the protection of soldiers over firepower. and Caldari being a Corporatocracy, would revolve more around delegation of roles and strict structure (such as relying heavily on advanced gang links and other fleet-based systems to ensure cooperation relying heavily on FC's and boosters to push the fleet forward, a very solo unfriendly ship style)
granted i know very little about EvE Lore, but eh, im bored and ranting. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
37
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 03:21:00 -
[109] - Quote
I was thinking more the discipline of the Roman legions vs. the big, individualist barbarians. But that is a story for another thread. |
Imawuss
United Atheist League
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 03:27:00 -
[110] - Quote
Nerf ac's? i say ney they need a buff! and CCP thinks so too. With the new Hail buff doubling the range of their highest DPS ammo they will be right where they are ment to be as FoTM. Reigning champion for the last few years with no contenders in sight for years to come. |
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Bomberlocks
CTRL-Q
26
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Posted - 2011.11.02 03:41:00 -
[111] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Two thoughts:
- Lose the ~9% DPS increase that short range ammo got with the projectile buff. The purification of damage type was more then enough.
- Reduce the tracking enhancer falloff bonus from 30% to 15%.
Discuss. You're on a roll, I see.
Short answer: No.
Long answer: Reducing the falloff on 425mms can be discussed. Reducing the damage on t1 or faction ammo would be, in want of a better word, terrible, because they would then have less overall damage than either lasers or hybrids (they used to have less overall damage and are still mixed damage to a certain extent).
Minnies flew like that for a long time before Dominion and it was pretty damn awful.
There's a very good reason that before December 2009, Minnies were known as Eve on hard mode. |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Retribution
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 03:44:00 -
[112] - Quote
Hershman wrote:Minmatar ships have quite a few weaknesses to balance their many guns already as we speak! Be creative and you will counter them
Yeah, all kinds of weaknesses.
You can neut out their guns They have trouble disengaging from a fight. Stuck with two damage types So easy to get under their guns Lack of utility highs makes them crap against tacklers So slow, they can't catch anything etc
Buff winmatar, nerf the rest.
|
Digital Messiah
The Scope Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 03:45:00 -
[113] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:Lharanai wrote:and what about us poor Amarr? Won't somebody please think of the children!?! I'm sure CCP can give some tender and loving nerfbat action to the Amarr too, if you really want it so badly. Vegeta what does the scouter say!? His alpha is over 9000!
On a more serious note, waiting until after the hybrid buff is wisest when talking about balance. "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" |
Bomberlocks
CTRL-Q
26
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 03:51:00 -
[114] - Quote
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:....
Most agile, highest speed while tackled. Disengage at will. Anything that can't out-run it, won't get the chance to shoot it in the first place. And most ships that can out-run it, will be needing to gtfo at this point.
.....
Good evening, Mr. OP Cane, I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Drake.
Long range?: Does it get any longer? Speed?: Nano Drakes are pretty fast Tank: Is there any BC that can out tank a Drake in a standard fit? Cap Stable?: Missiles don't need them
There's a reason why the Drake is the most used BC. There was a big whine, cry, tears and rage session last year when nullsec gangs came up with the Drake blob idea. Everyone and their mothers (and little sisters) wanted to NREF DRAEK!!!!!
Then someone else disocovered that Alpha Maelstroms were a pretty good counter to Drakes. Since then Drakes have been on the wane as FOTM.
EVE is a rock, paper, scissors game. FOTMs come and go. If the FOTM doesn't go, then you have a balance problem, as are (for a short while longer) supercaps and Dramiels.
Deal with it. |
Steelshine
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
38
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 03:54:00 -
[115] - Quote
kick amok dot |
Bomberlocks
CTRL-Q
27
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Posted - 2011.11.02 03:59:00 -
[116] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:It's more like scorch vs. AC. We'll just have to agree to disagree. When and if they roll out a new intel system I hope Minmatar gets the short end of the stick there. Big barbarians and strong fighters - light on organization and team. It would put things in perspective at least. The type of fits you're talking about, Gyros and TEs, are paper thin shield fits that have a specific weakness against lasers. Lasers do 100% damage all the way out to their considerable optimal, whereas falloff fits do about 50% damage in mid falloff.
And you want to have that nerfed?
No.
Now, you will counter and say the armour Canes are OMFG OP!!!!!! They have considerably less range than Pulses, lasers can switch ammo on the fly without the 10 second wait. The Harbinger has almost double the drone bay of a Cane and can fit a full set of ec-600 drones. The Harbinger has a bigger tank, i.e more ehp than a Cane. The only advantage if that the Cane is somewhat faster.
And you want to have the Cane nerfed?
No.
0/10. |
DarkAegix
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
208
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 04:33:00 -
[117] - Quote
Minmatar excel in the extremely niche role of PVP, so why nerf them? |
Ikarus Gaul
Eiffel Integrated
42
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 05:00:00 -
[118] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:Minmatar excel in the extremely niche role of PVP, so why nerf them?
This comment is LOLtastic |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 05:18:00 -
[119] - Quote
Another butt hurt attempt of fail
Artys are worst dps/tracking/rof/range weapon currently in game they suck in all of dose things exempt one thing ...Butt hurting alpha strike that i see most of whiners here received...gotta love how much butt pain it brings.
AC's are ok they have range but not most range that go to amarr or caldary if one is considering missiles,they don't have most dps they have worst dps that is, there is delay for switching dmg type.
Usually EHP is lowish on all mini ships but it is not rule...but what they do have is speed and agility =your fat arse pve to pvp ship is gonna be raped and thus butt hurt is created.
so no nerf they are fine.
|
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 05:40:00 -
[120] - Quote
Imawuss wrote:Nerf ac's? i say ney they need a buff! and CCP thinks so too. With the new Hail buff doubling the range of their highest DPS ammo they will be right where they are ment to be as FoTM. Reigning champion for the last few years with no contenders in sight for years to come.
Hail is arty ammo, and NO ONE uses it currently because it puts a rate or fire penalty on a weapon system that fires every 12 seconds with prefect skills and a three gyro's to speed it up in addition to a 50% range penalty. On 1400s there is no reason to use it ever, you get to fire more than 4 times a minute when you use faction ammo, and for sniping you use Tremor anyway because you need the range bonus.
I hardly think that that the change to Hailis groundbreaking. People aren't going to change the employment of 1400mm arties (Arty Baddon anyone) its just an option over using RF short range ammo types all of the time.
People should really welcome it, at least matar using T2 ammo is sticking to one damage type most likely, otherwise you are choosing by engagement. |
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