TBH I'm beginning to think that Hybrids are OP. And yeah - I'm using them.

-Liang

TBH I'm beginning to think that Hybrids are OP. And yeah - I'm using them.

-Liang

This is because you are just comparing them to their performance before.

Previously they made about 30% of the paper damage on average, now they are doing about 40% of the paper damage. Since the basic damage also increased we are talking about a 50% increase of the real damage you are causing.
There is the point when you are happy about the changes, they seem so huge.

This sounds huge, but there is a logical fallacy involved: You have merely decreased the gap from paper damage to real damage from 30% to 45% on average, so that 50% damage increase is overall relativly pathetic in comparison with the performance of other weapon systems.

While only having slightly less basic damage, ACs can easily transfer 80% of their paper damage to real damage on average (if flown efficiently and the pilots aren-¦t sticking around in deep falloff because there you don-¦t need as much skill and mistakes aren-¦t fatal). They are still doing vastly more damage. they are still immune to nos/neut, they are still on the fastest and most agile ships, they have still multiple damage types, shield tanking is a quite common option for Minmatar ships, so buffer tanks doesn-¦t sacrifice speed, also there are often utility highs for nasty surprises like nos/neut, which can be deadly if your opponent needs the cap.

Minmatar are designed and optimized for close combat and sniping (yup, Artys are the perfect sniping weapons, especially on the fastest and most agile hulls). They are not OP, they are just seen this way because all the stuff you need for close combat and sniping are married to the most flexible engagement range. They are the ones that should cover the Gallente combat roles, because they would excel on it.

The Gallente on the other hand will never work in close combat and sniping. They must not become like the Minmatar, but the Minmatar have what is needed for the roles (The only weapon system working exclusively in nos/neut range needs cap? and another weapon that works outside this range does not? A sniping weapon without huge alpha... there is a good reason why sniping is everywhere high alpha, low rate of fire, and fast and agile units: it just doesn-¦t work otherwise, you can-¦t reasonably implement sniping with low alpha.)

So Gallente needs other combat roles, anything else won-¦t solve any balancing issue.

So just exchange the weapon ranges of ACs/Blasters and Rails/Artys (with adjustments to damage and tracking for complementing the range changes) and you have solved:
Minmatar being OP: they aren-¦t op, they are just designed for another combat role, so they should specialize... and they should -and can- absolutely excel in their specialty.
Gallente being gimped: the most flexible engagement range is enough to offset the many shortcomings, while the latter will make sure they won-¦t be op in their new role. They make a good generalist: not really outstanding anywhere, but a viable alternative everywhere.
Caldari turret ships: they will become useful. Not outstandingly good, but Caldari won-¦t be just only missiles any more.
reintroduced sniping: sniping can only be done with huge alpha, therefore artys (a slight increase of probing time might be neccessary, snipers need just barely enough time to get off one shot and then change position).

If I hadn't been on these forums so long, I'd find it hard to believe so many :words: could be so wrong.

-Liang

I on the other hand have no trouble to believe so few :words: are needed to be this wrong.
Btw, care to elaborate where you have difficulties with my point? I did skip some explanations because i didn-¦t want to go into too much detail. Maybe that caused some confusion?

It's complete bullshit to say that Hybrids were dealing 30% of their DPS while projectiles are laying out 80%. Take a good long hard look at the Thorax and construct new Thorax vs Rupture arguments. I think you'll start to see that the Thorax is going to quickly replace the Rupture as the FOTM cruiser.

Eve is going to realign to a Gallente/Amarr FOTM again. If you want to do small gang up close work, you're going to use Hybrids. Everything else is going to be lasers. There's just not going to be room on the battlefield for Minmatar - their tanks are crap, and threading the needle for DPS just doesn't work outside of 1v1s.

I'm not complaining - I don't care. I can (and do) fly it all.

-Liang

I said on average you get those values. You can get in better shots on occasion, often not as good...
And it-¦s just a fact that you get with ACs far more good hits into the target than with blasters and ending up with considerably more damage with ACs. The gap has lessened a bit but close combat is AC territory and since the Gallente can-¦t be changed accordingly it will remain AC territory.
And while i-¦m not restricted to the Gallente (so it-¦s not really a necessity for me to make them a viable alternative) i do like the look of quite a few Gallente boats and i was hoping i could enjoy a little bit more time in them while doing something interesting with them and not just for flying around.

Stop flying blasters like they're lasers or ACs and you won't have that problem anymore. That or fit some TEs and use null.

-Liang

Oh, don-¦t worry, i can make blasters work. But when i say "something interesting" i am talking about real pvp where you can-¦t afford to fly with gimped weapons because your opponents aren-¦t handicapped and won-¦t screw up. In PvE and so-called "PvP-fights" that aren-¦t much more challenging than PvE you can just use about any trash and still win... it-¦s kinda meh... boring...

Nice No True Scottsman fallacy there.

-Liang

It's complete bullshit to say that Hybrids were dealing 30% of their DPS while projectiles are laying out 80%. Take a good long hard look at the Thorax and construct new Thorax vs Rupture arguments. I think you'll start to see that the Thorax is going to quickly replace the Rupture as the FOTM cruiser.

Eve is going to realign to a Gallente/Amarr FOTM again. If you want to do small gang up close work, you're going to use Hybrids. Everything else is going to be lasers. There's just not going to be room on the battlefield for Minmatar - their tanks are crap, and threading the needle for DPS just doesn't work outside of 1v1s.

I'm not complaining - I don't care. I can (and do) fly it all.

-Liang

Matar got a new very useful ammo that made their prior advantage even better. Matar will continue to be used for all of the same reasons - the biggest being they have the lowest risk to losing their ship as a race. GTFO tank is the best in the game.

You realize Hail still has a falloff and tracking penalty, yes?

Liang, I am sorry, but the statement about Amarr/ Gallente being new FOTM at the expense of minmatar is just wrong. Unless I missed something, Amarr werent buffed in this patch. Matar got a new very useful ammo that made their prior advantage even better. Matar will continue to be used for all of the same reasons - the biggest being they have the lowest risk to losing their ship as a race. GTFO tank is the best in the game.

You realize Hail still has a falloff and tracking penalty, yes?

The thing about it is that Gallente is almost as fast and agile as Minmatar while being superior in meaningful small gang ranges (0-30km, generally). Meanwhile, pretty much everyone already agrees that Amarr is and always has been better at fleet warfare - sans perhaps the "welpfleet". Then again, the "Welpfleet" is called that because it runs into Amarr fleets.... -_-

Consider that only the Sleipnir and Vagabond really have any role remaining as their own. The Sleip is still hands down the best CS once you include deadspace shield boosters, crystals, blue pill, and gang bonuses and the Vaga is faster than everyone else - though this is not as true as it once was. The Hurricane of course remains a fine ship, but its never been as good as the Drake or Binger in a straight up fight or in a pure damage dealing role. Even the Gimp Ships - T1 frigs, destroyers, AFs, Inties etc which have traditionally been considered Minmatar land have extremely viable Gallente competitors.

I'm still going to fly Minmatar on occasion, but their niche is getting whittled down fast and I don't think it'll take too much before people realize that they're no longer the "Winmatar" they once were - and truthfully much of the complaints I'm hearing are coming from people that don't appear to have undocked and tested the new winds out.

-Liang

Then again, the "Welpfleet" is called that because it runs into Amarr fleets.... -_-

Liang, you know that you are just talking nonsense. You made a statement earlier where you were impressed by the changes, were proven that the changes were quite meaningless and now you are trying to still win this argument by making random claims without any substance. Sorry, but you are trying to make a stand in a lost cause. It-¦s just too obvious now that you are driven to the point where you want us to tell that Gallente are superior in small gang warfare.

Lean back, take a deep breath and admit that it-¦s all about winning the argument now -no matter the cost- and this has made you going somewhere where you don-¦t want to be. It-¦s not that bad, it happens to all of us.

Yo'u've no ******* idea, why the Welpfleet is called Welpfleet.
It's so called, because you can throw 200 canes with guns'n'neuts on a Super and even if they're all got killed, you still won the isk war.

Change is often delivered quickly and accepted slowly. You are a walking and talking example of this.

-Liang

:psyduck:

Been playing for about a year, with a little bit of PvP experience; the experienced players that got me into the game have said that the Minmatar's main strengths, and more specifically, projectile weapons, is the ability to change the damage type they do. While the hybrid weapons have had a nice buff, they are still limited to kinetic/thermal.

Is this or is this not as big a liability as I've been led to believe?

Almost as fast = slower = getting kited until it dies. Until Gallante blasterboat is actually faster than Winmatar, by which I meant not just slightly faster, but rather able to catch up before it pops, nothing will change.

Except that you have to respond to what they're doing. The margins for error in kiting have gotten dramatically shaved down IMO.

-Liang

Liang, I am sorry, but the statement about Amarr/ Gallente being new FOTM at the expense of minmatar is just wrong.

Which is pretty much how it used to be before the last Proj buff, although back then it was more of a knife-edge; good pilots used to do well with Minmatar but most couldn't handle it.

I still think TE's need knocking back to a 15% Falloff boost though rather than an outright DPS nerf to projectiles or ships, first of all to stop ships with falloff bonuses being a bit silly on the range side like the Vaga, Mach etc. Second is that as it'll also affect blasters reach it won't make too much difference to the size of kiting zones for the normal ships, just move the ships slighly closer together.