Deal with it. Extortion is a valid game mechanic.

A mission runner runs missions and uses the ISK he gets from bounties to buy PLEX to donate to PFG.
A miner mines and uses the ISK he gets from selling minerals to buy PLEX to donate to PFG.
A wardeccer wardecs people and uses the ISK he gets from ransoms to buy PLEX to donate to PFG.

I don't see any difference here. Or do you want to stop other people from donating their honestly obtained ISK for the good cause too?

So I log back to eve to see the marmites wardeccing left and right.

Here's the mail they sent out with the decs:

"We thought it would be a good idea to war dec alliances. And if they want to surrender they will have to donate a plex to the lex for good campaign. We just want to do something to support the Plex for good campaign of ccp".

I have several problems with this...

This leaves a very sour taste in my mouth, i understand when people bully others in eve just for their sheer pleasure and the harvest of tears, some (if not all) of the best stories in eve have come through the loss of someone else and they following rage and machoism is just the icing of the cake. However, why do you have to mix this with a tragedy that happened in real life ?

Can we PLEASE keep this separate ? How much and if i donated something to the philippines is my personal matter, i dont want to talk about it in eve, i dont even want to lay out how much i sent, it's none of your guys business and i certainly don't want to be blackmailed into a RL activity by anyone nomatter how "good" it is. You can dec me all day long just to be a ****, thats completely fine, this is eve in the end.

I would like to play a game when i play the game and not have this in my face all the time, especially since we come from all walks of life, i can think of alot of examples where such humanitarian aid would be a slap in your face if you just come from the wrong country or different ideology when in fact you would just love to play the game. (not in this case maybe, but where do you draw the line ?)

Plex for Good through CCP is fine, it's something i can choose to do freely and i think its great that ccp took action on behalf of the community. But this ? What if they use it as a scam to make money ? Where is the line between forcing someone to donate and convincing them ?
What if they lift the dec afterwards and then dec you again but this time for other reasons ? How... i dont even... ???

I'm probably getting flamed for this but i can't make sense of it and would love to get some input from you guys.

(no, i didnt get wardecced, this is my main and he's in an npc corp, no i'm not butthurt, no eve is not dieing, no it's not my brother who used this account)

Considering the Red cross will use 90% of the money people donate just to pay the exorbitant salaries of their executives... that itself should get you a way bitter taste than anything related to wars. I myself would never donate a single penny to red cross. I just use this money to help smaller entities close by that I can see exactly how they use the money while operatign under the natinal jurisdiction and strictly forbidden to use the money for anything other than direct help.

Blackmailing people into doing stuff that they wouldn't do otherwise in the RL world is a criminal offence.

Care to read what i wrote ? Its a difference if you chose to do it yourself or get blackmailed into it. If the marmites are so good and generous why dont they just gather the money and THEN use that money to donate it ?

Blackmailing people into doing stuff that they wouldn't do otherwise in the RL world is a criminal offence.

Blackmailing people into doing stuff that they wouldn't do otherwise in the RL world is a criminal offence.

tbh that sounds disgusting and low even by eve standards, using the plight of a RL catastrophe to bully your way in a game is the word of bottom feeders and scum of a other level

Here a Story

There this wee boy goes to school everyday, everyday he gets bullied and beat up, he plays eve to find his fun and forget about it, the bullies(who also play eve) find out and start using that to BM an extort him in game

eve communities reaction = legit use of game mechanic

Care to read what i wrote ? Its a difference if you chose to do it yourself or get blackmailed into it. If the marmites are so good and generous why dont they just gather the money and THEN use that money to donate it ? Why even mention it ?

It's not blackmail. All they are doing is offering terms of peace and part of those terms is that you donate to PFG. You can refuse the terms if you're not happy with them.

This thread alone justifies the concept.

You'd rather pay them off directly to drop the war dec, so they maybe could buy a plex with the spoils?
What difference does it make? However they frame their conditions, it's up to you to deal with it.

They're perfectly entitled to wardeccing you for whatever reason they choose.
Whatever they do with whatever you give them is not up to you.

If you don't want to give in to their demands, just go to low sec.. no need to post a whiny thread.

Nothing at all positive comes for the charity drive from this approach

And it is, of course, blackmail. Do x or you will suffer negative consequences y is just what blackmail is.

Now, that's absolutely fine in EvE but this the PFG initiative has one foot in EvE and one foot in the real world so particular care has to be taken with associating behaviours that are unacceptable in the real world but fine in EvE with it.

How much and if i donated something to the philippines is my personal matter, i dont want to talk about it in eve, i dont even want to lay out how much i sent, it's none of your guys business and i certainly don't want to be blackmailed into a RL activity by anyone nomatter how "good" it is. You can dec me all day long just to be a ****, thats completely fine, this is eve in the end.

What else should we expect from hisec mercs.

But yeah, it's not a really good intentioned thing. It's other people's isk/plex getting coerced into it. If they did care then they'd use their own isk/plex they are paid in their normal business to wardec people to put towards the campaign.

Except for donations for the charity.

No it isn't lol. If that were the case, pretty much everything in the world is blackmail.

Now, that's absolutely fine in EvE but this the PFG initiative has one foot in EvE and one foot in the real world so particular care has to be taken with associating behaviours that are unacceptable in the real world but fine in EvE with it.

How they frame their conditions in precisely the point. As you say, what they do with the ransom they collect is nobody's business, so why even bring PFG into the conversation since they can make their donations without making a public link between ransoms and PFG. There is no benefit to the charity and a significant possibility of a downside, so if they have the initiative's best interests at heart they should not pursue this approach any further. There is a reason that CCP has told pirates not to demand PFG donations as ransoms and exactly the same set of reasons apply in this case.

Perhaps their victims are more likely to cough up when they are donating to a good cause, thus raising a bit of extra money for said good cause, that wouldn't have been available otherwise?

I'm sure none of the rl victims will mind that their food and shelter were paid for in part due to the actions of *ebil piwates* in a video game.

I find it absolutely hillarious and sad at the same time how people justify this blackmailing by saying it's not blackmailing. And how some argue that the cause justifies all means.

It's not your business how much i donate and i don't let myself bully into it, end of line.

To the person who said i want the wardec lifted... right, Because the Viziam get wardecced so much. -.-

And it is, of course, blackmail. Do x or you will suffer negative consequences y is just what blackmail is.

No it isn't lol. If that were the case, pretty much everything in the world is blackmail.

So it's ok to squeeze it out of people as long as you the agressor thinks it's for a good cause ? Got some news for you, noone does anything in this world without thinking in his mind that it's a good thing for one reason or another after weighing in the positives and negatives. Still we have wars in the real world over all kinds of stupid crap. Stop imposing what you think is good on others nomatter how clear it might be. Do and keep it ingame.

What's sad is that you would place hoarding your internet space riches above the well-being of others in real life.
If this is causing you sleepless nights, you may need to recalibrate your personal scale of atrocities..
"all means" indeed.. lmao.

If you're not inclined to pay, don't.

It's ok to ransom people in eve.
You are imposing what you think is good on others by denying this simple fact.

It's ok to ransom people in eve.
You are imposing what you think is good on others by denying this simple fact.

Considering the Red cross will use 90% of the money people donate just to pay the exorbitant salaries of their executives... that itself should get you a way bitter taste than anything related to wars. I myself would never donate a single penny to red cross. I just use this money to help smaller entities close by that I can see exactly how they use the money while operatign under the natinal jurisdiction and strictly forbidden to use the money for anything other than direct help.

Imagine the outrage if the Red Cross would find out some of the money they received was earned by hurting peaceful rocks in a spaceship computer gameGǪ

To stay on topic, we have on average 50 new wardecs every week, we negotiate surrender for isk on a daily basis and we sent out the mail in the OP to only a select few corps.

In other words, we know who you areGǪ If you arenGÇÖt the CEO of your corp, I suggest you talk to him first before drama posting nonsense.
If you arenGÇÖt who we think you are than good job on taking things out of context and blowing them up well beyond any form of proportion.

Anyhow, as said before, we do other things for this particular charity in EVE employing our normal gameplay, we also are invested in other charities in and out of EVE.

Fly safe

D.

You keep reciting that, it's an opinion by the way not a fact. Lets try to do this eloquent then:


"It's ok to ransom people in eve."
Thats an absolute statement that implies that under ALL circumstances it's alright to ransom people.

I can easily come up with a couple examples the falsify that:


"Give me your Real Life adress or i will Harass you to no end."

"Give me 3 billion or i will make jokes about on Fanfest in a public Presentation and suggest that you should kill yourself"

"Give me this or i'll ******* murder you in real life"


Notice the thing ? It's not just "right" under any circumstance it's the means and consequences. Therefore again, keep ingame ingame. Do not mix it with other stuff.

And learn the difference between a factual statement and an opinion that has no actual arguments to support it.

Imagine the outrage if the Red Cross would find out some of the money they received was earned by hurting peaceful rocks in a spaceship computer gameGǪ

To stay on topic, we have on average 50 new wardecs every week, we negotiate surrender for isk on a daily basis and we sent out the mail in the OP to only a select few corps.

In other words, we know who you areGǪ If you arenGÇÖt the CEO of your corp, I suggest you talk to him first before drama posting nonsense.
If you arenGÇÖt who we think you are than good job on taking things out of context and blowing them up well beyond any form of proportion.

Anyhow, as said before, we do other things for this particular charity in EVE employing our normal gameplay, we also are invested in other charities in and out of EVE.

Fly safe

D.

I won't go through the trouble of quantifying my statements to account for readers who lack common sense.
If you feel your examples are arguably on the same level as the Marmite Plex for Good drive, I pity you.

You are being serious, are you ?

Blackmail is an act, often a crime, involving unjustified threats to make a gain or cause loss to another unless a demand is met.[1][2] It may be defined as coercion involving threats of physical harm, threat of criminal prosecution, or threats for the purposes of taking the person's money or property.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackmail

So it's ok to squeeze it out of people as long as you the agressor thinks it's for a good cause?

Cool, a definition from wikipedia. Here's a definition from the dictionary;

black-+mail
n.
1.
a. Extortion of money or something else of value from a person by the threat of exposing a criminal act or discreditable information.
b. Something of value extorted in this manner.

Uh-huh.

False analogy, ad hominem

"Give me your Real Life adress or i will Harass you to no end."

"Give me 3 billion or i will make jokes about on Fanfest in a public Presentation and suggest that you should kill yourself"

"Give me this or i'll ******* murder you in real life"

Ayn Rand is spinning in her grave.

Eh, yes ? Do you like to punch yourself in the face ? That is exactly the point that was made against you.

OP,

Did you receive the mail yourself? (NO!)
Did you receive the mails that were sent beforehand? (NO)

What are you complaining about than?
If the original receiver of said mail would speak up with his/her main we'd have a basis for a discussion.
I take it he/she won't however, since we talked about it before and after the sending of said mail.

Sorry I can't say many concrete things because THAT would be embarassing for some.

D.

Sure, and you HAD to mention that because it's so SUPERsekret and SUPERexciting!

Yes it is

Sucks for you that your NPC corp doesn't offer you any exitement of the player created kind.
I take it that's why you try to dump on people actually making effort to create some content and background for others to enjoy.

D.

I apologize, when coming down to your level I felt less secure and therefor reacted with childish remarks to your well thought out statements.

D.

Sucks for you that your NPC corp doesn't offer you any exitement of the player created kind.

Obmud my friend, I am honestly taken aback that you would find offense in such a selfless act as the Marmites are engaged in. Not only are they trying to help people who are truthfully in the direst of need. But they are simply trying to spread that good will around the galaxy.
That your so overwhelmed with the spirit of Scrooge is apparent. I only hope this will be one of the spirits of Christmas visited upon you this night. For you should find less offense at such a selfless act, and feel much more warm and fuzzy that someone has the kahunas to bring unwilling participants and willing alike into the fold. Giving them the opportunity nay privilege to help a nation torn by Natural Disaster.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. (your prejudice is showing)

Fly True, Strike Sure, and Keep Up!

Stationmonkey

Besides the fact that you're a coward posting with an npc alt...
...CCP said they're not happy with people doing this.


I can't put my finger on who said it... hm...

Apology accepted.

So I log back to eve to see the marmites wardeccing left and right.

Here's the mail they sent out with the decs:

"We thought it would be a good idea to war dec alliances. And if they want to surrender they will have to donate a plex to the lex for good campaign. We just want to do something to support the Plex for good campaign of ccp".

I have several problems with this...

This leaves a very sour taste in my mouth, i understand when people bully others in eve just for their sheer pleasure and the harvest of tears, some (if not all) of the best stories in eve have come through the loss of someone else and they following rage and machoism is just the icing of the cake. However, why do you have to mix this with a tragedy that happened in real life ?

Can we PLEASE keep this separate ? How much and if i donated something to the philippines is my personal matter, i dont want to talk about it in eve, i dont even want to lay out how much i sent, it's none of your guys business and i certainly don't want to be blackmailed into a RL activity by anyone nomatter how "good" it is. You can dec me all day long just to be a ****, thats completely fine, this is eve in the end.

I would like to play a game when i play the game and not have this in my face all the time, especially since we come from all walks of life, i can think of alot of examples where such humanitarian aid would be a slap in your face if you just come from the wrong country or different ideology when in fact you would just love to play the game. (not in this case maybe, but where do you draw the line ?)

Plex for Good through CCP is fine, it's something i can choose to do freely and i think its great that ccp took action on behalf of the community. But this ? What if they use it as a scam to make money ?
What if they lift the dec afterwards and then dec you again but this time for other reasons ? How... i dont even... ???

I'm probably getting flamed for this but i can't make sense of it and would love to get some input from you guys.

(no, i didnt get wardecced, this is my main and he's in an npc corp, no i'm not butthurt, no eve is not dieing, no it's not my brother who used this account)

It was mentioned in a couple of other threads on the topic but I forget by who. One of the pirates posting in support of PFG floated the idea of extorting donations as ransoms but then later posted to say that they had been told not to do this by CCP and to just take isk and donate it themselves. If memory serves another pirate then reported the same response in another of the threads.

Methinks you missed the very apparent point in his original comment!
I also would like to ask the OP how much you have personally donated to the relief fund?

You know what?

I didn't donate a thing.
I won't donate a single ISK.

The amount of bull regarding this is ridiculous!
I bet most people don't actually donate a single cent of their own money,
while at the same time keep telling themselves what kind of good people they are!

I hope CCP can reduce their taxes with this,
because all you who don't pay a single cent of real money,
are donating somebody elses money!

And you feel good about it too!

WOAH you are such good people!
Really! OMG I BOW BEFORE YOU!

*********** !

You also have missed the point in that there is no extortion going on here only options in surrendering to a wardec as I read it.
Option 1, pay a surrender fee. which is part of the mechanic
Option 2, pay a plex which will be donated to the relief fund and is also only done because of the blackmailing. Which is a way of helping people caught up in a very bad disater.

You also have missed the point in that there is no extortion going on here only options in surrendering to a wardec as I read it.
Option 1, pay a surrender fee. which is part of the mechanic
Option 2, pay a plex which will be donated to the relief fund. Which is a way of helping people caught up in a very bad disater.

If people feel that it is extortion then make a personal donation outside the options given even if you are wardecced or not.

1. It's none of your business, i stated already that i belief in not bloating about it wether you give something or not. it's everybody's personal business.

So what is your real purpose here as it certainly is not just about Marmites raising isk for a worthy relief fund, I believe you have alterior motives in bringing this.

It's not that extortion in game is a bad thing (it's not) but both option 1 and 2 are clearly instances of extortion. You pay a fee to avoid the threat of force being used against you. That is just what extortion is.

Blackmailing people into doing stuff that they wouldn't do otherwise in the RL world is a criminal offence. It has nothing to do with a game mechanic, that is EXACTLY my point and it nowhere justifies everything you do just because ccp tolerates the double isk scammers in jita. I have problems understanding your logic to be honest.

You can buy PLEX with in game currency....If someone chooses to do it with Real world money thats their choice. Therefore Valid game mechanic.

Then petition CCP to remove the option in the surrender mechanic of paying a fee to surrender as it is they who introduced it.

OP,

Did you receive the mail yourself? (NO!)
Did you receive the mails that were sent beforehand? (NO)

What are you complaining about than?
If the original receiver of said mail would speak up with his/her main we'd have a basis for a discussion.
I take it he/she won't however, since we talked about it before and after the sending of said mail.

Sorry I can't say many concrete things because THAT would be embarassing for some.

FTFY


"If people feel that it is extortion then make a personal donation outside the options given even if you are wardecced or not."

That is exactly my point, thank you for underlining it again.

What exactly did you miss when going from "it's their choice" to being forced into making the choice ?

0/10. RL Bullies play codblops not spreadsheets in space.

(no, i didnt get wardecced, this is my main and he's in an npc corp, no i'm not butthurt, no eve is not dieing, no it's not my brother who used this account)

What would be the difference if they just wardecced you without the message? This sentence alone should end this mofoing thread of stupidity. I hope Marmite or whoever they are keep the plex that idiots give to them instead of fighting.. Pussies, a lot of you!

What would be the difference if they just wardecced you without the message? This sentence alone should end this mofoing thread of stupidity. I hope Marmite or whoever they are keep the plex that idiots give to them instead of fighting.. Pussies, a lot of you!

Ah, so words dont matter anymore RIght

You ... you hope they use a real life disaster to scam PLEXes out of people and then use them for their own benefit, depriving people in real life need of the help that the PLEXes should be providing? Are you ill or just stupid?

Its a game you really think they are doing it to give back? Please HTFU..

All players have been warned about exactly this in the Dev blog.



So you see, if they are doing this, and they are keeping it for themselves, then they are doing something wrong, and CCP will step in. If they are actually doing what they claim they are, then it is not a scam, and CCP have no reason to step in.

Its a game you really think they are doing it to give back? Please HTFU..

The point of my own post was expressly that the wording doesn't matter, because they could be doing the exact same thing with different wording.

wording ALWAYS matter.

just imagine this picture:
1) i say that you are moron <-- that would be offensive and that's all
2) i say that you are (insert name of any race here) moron <-- that would be racism and this is completely different story

So again: wording always matter

Personally I just dislike seeing the word "bullied" being thrown about so casually in this context. This is a PVP game at heart, and Marmite using game mechanics to try to accomplish something good out of the deal is neither bullying nor is it a bad thing. Sure, you may not like it if you're on the receiving end of the stick, but were it "bullying" then it would be personal. Application of force to achieve goals, personal, corporate, industrial, financial, or political is a day to day commodity in this game. Don't muddy the waters by trying to tie a controversial social ill into the actions of pvp'ers doing pvp things. You don't like it? Don't pay. Otherwise, pay up and know that through your inglorious defeat in internet starship land you may have just actually helped to do a good thing in the real world... remind me again how that is a bad thing?

I broadly agree with what you are saying but think things are a little more complex in this particular limited circumstance. The problem is that this kind of action is not one that takes place entirely within the magic circle of the game because it turns on forcing someone to act in a way that is a) motivated by out of game considerations, and b) deliberately has an out of game effect. Because these ingame actions interface with the real world outside the game in this special case there is, I think, quite a strong case to be made that the special rules that apply within the magic circle have to be moderated to take account of the interaction with the real world outside the game.

It is a difficult question for the rather underdeveloped field of virtual ethics but there does seem to me to be a genuinely tricky issue here caused by the blurring of boundaries. In such a case I would be inclined to play it safe and to avoid any direct link between ingame coercion and donations to the RC both because there are difficult ethical questions around the issue and because even the perception of ethical difficulties could harm the image of the Plex drive in the minds of some players. Since there really seems to be no upside for the charity that comes from taking this approach (as ransoms can just be taken as normal and then donated to PFG without bringing it up in the exchange with the victim) and there might be a number of negative impacts, it seems best to err on the side of caution.

Gee, I'm so glad that we're not talking about the RL world, but about an internet spaceship game in which it's valid gameplay.

Ever heard of oportunity costs ? It's NOT valid, it doesnt matter if you just keep repeating it without giving a proper reason.

This leaves a very sour taste in my mouth,

All those that have been war dec'd should coordinate together and teach the aggressor what happens when you over extend yourself?

I applaud Marmite's generosity.

The OP needs to remember that Marmite would be wardeccing people for profit anyway. It is kind of their thing. They have just chosen to forego some of their isk profit to help the good people of the Phillipines in their time of need. Nobody is forcing you to pay. In the case that you have some sort of ideological objection to helping Filipinos, you can feel free not to donate and enjoy the war for what it is (you racist ****).

Considering the Red cross will use 90% of the money people donate just to pay the exorbitant salaries of their executives

All players have been warned about exactly this in the Dev blog.



So you see, if they are doing this, and they are keeping it for themselves, then they are doing something wrong, and CCP will step in. If they are actually doing what they claim they are, then it is not a scam, and CCP have no reason to step in.

I hope they do for their own sake as they will be permabanned otherwise. That is not in question. What amazes me is seeing you advocating stealing from a real charity because 'Its a game, lolz, htfu'. It takes a special type of person to think that's ok.

I think it could be worse. They could be asking for Billions of ISK to line their own pockets.

Anyway, those who say the Red Cross keeps 90% of the money for themselves need to get their facts straight. All you have to do is Google and see 9% of the money donated is used for administrative costs, like salaries and other things it takes to run a business. And out of that 9%, only 4% goes to salaries. The rest is for fundraising expenses and so on. That means 91 cents out of every dollar donated is used for relief efforts, which is pretty damn good.

There are a lot of other charities that only give 9 cents out of every dollar, and use the rest to line their pockets. Get your facts straight before spouting off, it makes you look stupid.

Actually, OP is just upset that marmite is making him feel bad for not paying the ransom. Using out-of-game events to make people feel guilty or uncomfortable in game is just going too far, damnit! (saracsm)

This doesn't really seem like all that big of a deal to me.

I would however be more impressed with Marmites if they just straight ransomed a shitload of ISK and contributed a huge amount of PLEX of their own.

It's kind of lazy to ask others to do it "for you."

Blackmailing people into doing stuff that they wouldn't do otherwise in the RL world is a criminal offence. It has nothing to do with a game mechanic, that is EXACTLY my point and it nowhere justifies everything you do just because ccp tolerates the double isk scammers in jita. I have problems understanding your logic to be honest.

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.

Infantry Carrier Squad Delta
.........Gÿ+/Gÿ+/Gÿ+/Gÿ+/ n++GòªGòñGöÇ .
GûéGûäGûà /Gûî /Gûî /Gûî /Gûî GûêGûêGûàGûâGûé
IGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê
.GùÑGèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGùñn++


What if we knocked on your CCP door and locked you down in your system for months and extorted you claiming it was for a good cause? Would the game mechanic still allowed? Probably not.

Current Skills: 448 (Skill Points: 507,010,560)

[quote=CCP Falcon]

What if we knocked on your CCP door and locked you down in your system for months and extorted you claiming it was for a good cause? Would the game mechanic still allowed? Probably not.

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.

Infantry Carrier Squad Delta
.........Gÿ+/Gÿ+/Gÿ+/Gÿ+/ n++GòªGòñGöÇ .
GûéGûäGûà /Gûî /Gûî /Gûî /Gûî GûêGûêGûàGûâGûé
IGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê
.GùÑGèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGùñn++


What if we knocked on your CCP door and locked you down in your system for months and extorted you claiming it was for a good cause? Would the game mechanic still allowed? Probably not.

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.

Of note: CCP do not approve of ransoming someone's ship or pod under the guise of "Donate to the charity or I blow you up", because they (fairly reasonably) don't want the worst of the pubbies complaining to the charity about it. (And yes, some will, some miners and the like are despicable human beings). So in ransom situations, demand the ISK or other assets come to you as normal, then honor or dishonor the ransom as you see fit, then convert the ransom into PLEX and donate to the fund through the proper channels.

Thank you for clarifying this. Has different advice been given to individual pirates re: ransoms or has that just been misreported?

For example, this post



https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3902836#post3902836

As far as I'm aware, this pirate asked the same question of the GM team and was told not to do this. Is the policy different for individual ransoms or does your statement in this thread over-ride any previous petition responses on the topic?

Deffinition: Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offense of obtaining money, property, or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion. Refraining from doing harm is sometimes euphemistically called protection. Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups. The actual obtainment of money or property is not required to commit the offense. Making a threat of violence which refers to a requirement of a payment of money or property to halt future violence is sufficient to commit the offense. Exaction refers not only to extortion or the unlawful demanding and obtaining of something through force,[1] but additionally, in its formal definition, means the infliction of something such as pain and suffering or making somebody endure something unpleasant.[

Thanks for the "Deffinition". What's your point?

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.

"We thought it would be a good idea to war dec alliances. And if they want to surrender they will have to donate a plex to the lex for good campaign. We just want to do something to support the Plex for good campaign of ccp".

I am intrigued to know how/why someone is going to give up their time to check that isk/plex given to Marmite (in this instance) is actually then passed on, and when.

Its their job?

*snip*

5 per the first post
was not something I said. So I am guessing either someone just changed words around or this was from a convo after someone recived the mail.

If you're not allowed to scam P4G and you then allow third party handling of donations then yes, I think it is their job to Police it.

Well thanks for standing up to it, i can only say that i in no way did change the text. It's copied 1:1 from the forwarded mail. The only change i could think of would have been made by the person who sent me this, which, i have no idea why in the first place he would do that. So i have little reason to believe you in that regard, i'm sorry.

How do you plan to avoid any misuse of this ? How much time will those alliances get from a regular war dec that you deliver afterwards ? What are the terms ?

Why not ask your friend for the mail I sent them? As for the misuse I am the only one who would have collected and touched the isk or plex so would have been easy for CCP to check. Yet no one paid so not hard to do the math. Granted I do not see much of a need to explain this to you or anyone. I have followed the rules and will keep doing so. The only 2 people I ever scamed in this game are real life friends. So all the war targets are safe seeing my RL friends are mostly perma war deced.

Anyone wanna be my real life friend? I need more perma war decs.

I have added my 2 isk on this thread 2 times. No mroe need for me to add to it. CCP knows where to find me if they have a question or think I did something wrong.

EDIT: Ranger 1 as I said before we even sent the mail to CCP nothing to hide.

You are being serious, are you ?

Blackmail is an act, often a crime, involving unjustified threats to make a gain or cause loss to another unless a demand is met.[1][2] It may be defined as coercion involving threats of physical harm, threat of criminal prosecution, or threats for the purposes of taking the person's money or property.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackmail

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.

Just one more thing since i stirred all this up, i do find your intention commendable i just think personally it's not done the right way. As we know its not illegal so go ahead. Case closed i guess.

This is your problem, if you agree or disagree its happening and going to happen. If we can raise money for a charity through a game to do a good thing, why not?
This is policed, BKM is the only one to touch the ISK and does alot for charities and runs 'Gaming for charity' aswell so can be fully trusted and even if you don't trust him, CCP has made it clear he would be banned.

I think personally complaining and crying about a war dec which intentions are to help charity is disrespectful and selfish. But I aint making a whole thread about it.

If, however, people don't follow through on their word with this and the proceeds don't go to PLEX for GOOD as promised, then there'll be issues, because it's regarded as a scam.

This strikes me as the key issue. Is Marmite collecting the ransom directly and then contributing towards PLEX FOR GOOD, or are they asking for their targets to do so in leiu of ransom?

I feel like in either case the possibility for a scam exists. Marmite could use the issue as a way to encourage ransoms, meaning they get an advantage by using the issue. That would make not following through a 'scam.' If the ransom is paid in ISK and marmite has to convert isk to PLEX first, then the issues of price variations in the market come up.

On the other hand, if as the defender in a war, if i trick Marmite into thinking I've made a donation, suddenly is CCP the guarantor of their ransom and responsible for enforcing that I haven't lied? Generally if lying gets your wartargets to leave you alone, then thats okay. But does this mean suddenly i've scammed marmite out of their ransom because I've deprived the philipenes of one more PLEX?

If I just go around falsely claiming that I donated to PLEX for good, does that in and of itself constitute a scam? What If I'm separately isk-begging, but at no point do I claim that donated isk will go towards PLEX for good?

As stated before in most cases the ransom payer will simply buy a PLEX with ISK and donate it via contract to the PLEX for Good character created for this purpose by CCP. All Marmite has to do to confirm this is to check their contract history.

Simple as can be.

If they collect a smaller amount directly (for those that could not afford a whole PLEX) as they said they were willing to do they simply accumulate the ISK and buy a PLEX or send it through one of the various 3rd party services doing the same thing. All of which is easily checked by CCP.

In your last question, if you are simply ISK begging and make no mention of PLEX for Good... quite frankly no one cares.

Silly what if scenarios can be addictive... and also tend to be a silly and annoying waste of everyone's time.

You are suggesting an ideal world that Eve isn't.

This applies to anyone/corp/alliance that extorts in the name of P4G and not just Marmite (who might do the right thing). The potential for easy scamming is so obvious I am surprised that you can not see it, did you come straight from the bonus room?

You are suggesting an ideal world that Eve isn't.

This applies to anyone/corp/alliance that extorts in the name of P4G and not just Marmite (who might do the right thing). The potential for easy scamming is so obvious I am surprised that you can not see it, did you come straight from the bonus room?

The very tiny minority that will try to scam using this will be dealt with.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.

If, however, people don't follow through on their word with this and the proceeds don't go to PLEX for GOOD as promised, then there'll be issues, because it's regarded as a scam.

That's an awful lot of extremely bizarre what it's for such a little fella.

As stated before in most cases the ransom payer will simply buy a PLEX with ISK and donate it via contract to the PLEX for Good character created for this purpose by CCP. All Marmite has to do to confirm this is to check their contract history.

Simple as can be.

If they collect a smaller amount directly (for those that could not afford a whole PLEX) as they said they were willing to do they simply accumulate the ISK and buy a PLEX or send it through one of the various 3rd party services doing the same thing. All of which is easily checked by CCP.

In your last question, if you are simply ISK begging and make no mention of PLEX for Good... quite frankly no one cares.

Far fetched what if scenarios can be addictive... and also tend to be a silly and annoying waste of everyone's time.

Good point on contract linking. But no need to be dismissive, the post was intended to be about thought-provoking what-ifs and the other implications of CCP's prohibition of PLEX for good related scamming. Once you get beyond the model of "give me isk and I will donate it." type of scam and into a situation where people treat you differently because you've donated, then you can gain value by claiming to have donated without actually scamming people for money. I thought the whole notion was interesting.

Yes, they will add '&P4G' to the end of the standard 'all incidents of extortion in Eve' query and magically find them. Where do you guys buy you foil hats?

Or go to the exact interaction that the "Scam" victims petition points them to.

That requires CCP to be proactive in hunting the scam rather than reactive by expecting petitions.

I find it cute how you just automatically jump to the conclusion that they're not.

I guess it can look that way if you pluck it from its context. I hadn't actually described all of Eve online and had assumed you would realise the limitations of the scenario that I was attempting to operate within.

In broader terms CCP would/should be able to find the greedy, everything is a pattern and so long as you fit or deviate from one you'll stand out in some way. Unless you aren't greedy or are statistically insignificant. CCP don't suddenly have additional resources to police the game due to a bad happening somewhere in the world.
Alternatively you can save a shed load on your power bill if you give people a clear Boolean type definition of right and wrong to work with and let them do the hard work instead. As far as I am aware it was people and not CCP using obvious queries that first spotted the alternative spelling donation chars, the clear right/wrong let that be detected and dealt with. The players posses far greater resources than CCP to detect scams in this area and all CCP need to do is obey K.I.S.S. and yet they have chosen not to.

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.
Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.
If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.

You can't steal from people. If we catch you stealing, you'll be banned from the communicty.

... Why not just take the plex equivalent of isk from the corp and donate it yourself?
That makes these last 9 pages 100% irrelevant

Not much to add here, as most things have been said. Remember this is not a Marmite post. try to forget Marmite for now and do what is right, even if you are a bad-ass in game. We wont tell anyone.... your soft side will be safe with us. The offer to end a war (not being a paid dec) also counts for all other war decs we have (could be a cheap way for you to get out ). Consult me first before you donate that plex to good to end a war.

CCP, you better donate for PFG....... we are coming after you..... [insert evil laughter]....

We have raised billions so far from our own members, which will also be used for PFG. So you see, even war decs can help make a better world. Group hug anyone ? \o/

Keep up the good work BKM !

I set a new alliance goal if we reach 50 billion I am putting on a dress and ribbons in my beard and signing a song then posting it on youtube. Who ever in the alliance donates the most can pick the song ( must be something I can sing).

I set a new alliance goal if we reach 50 billion I am putting on a dress and ribbons in my beard and signing a song then posting it on youtube. Who ever in the alliance donates the most can pick the song ( must be something I can sing).

I honestly doubt that was you're original intention for the scheme.

Maybe you are raising more plex for the cause but I worry about how this will affect CCP in future attempts at plex for good. We are at a very gray area in regards to blurring rl and the game, a charity works from those who want to give and support it. Coercing donations goes against how charities are at up and regardless of monetary medium I feel uneasy forcing people to conform to my thoughts and feeling on a subject regardless of how clear cut and "good" I deem it.

I hope CCP don't take anything negative away from this drive.

"Coercing donations goes against how charities are at up and regardless of monetary medium I feel uneasy forcing people to conform to my thoughts and feeling on a subject regardless of how clear cut and "good" I deem it. "

So let me get this right. We war dec people all the time. We war dec people now durring the P4G and cause they can pay like always except instead of us keeping it the money goes to help people in real life you do not like it? They even get out of a war at a much cheaper then normal price.



Who is being forced to donate? I have not seen one corp or alliance who got the mail post here yet complaining. No one has donated so maybe they sent you the plex and or isk and you are breaking the rules?



The whole point of this was to help people doing what we normally do. I am sure 2 weeks ago no one complained on here when they could pay to get out of a war dec. People could look at it as hey we are helping charity instead of paying a merc corp. That was how we looked at it.




But people killing each other in a game is ok for charity or are you just 100% against charity and games mixing?

But there is a new rule.
Of you say you are going to donate you now Have to donate.

Please note that CCP regards any scamming attempts surrounding PLEX for GOOD to be morally reprehensible, and any attempts at scamming relating to this program will be met with the harshest and swiftest action at our disposal.

That rule is moot, the drive isn't being scammed. Your alliance is. And now you have protection from CCP. Does that make sense?
(inb4 someone thinks this post is a person attack)